post proof of bad ethanol problems

[Ric]

I am thoroughly convinced that it makes absolutely no sense for someone(like you) that mows commercially to use non-ethanol gas for the many logical reasons you have given(and the fact that you go through gas so quickly the chances of having fuel system problems is slim or none). I still contend that for homeowners that mow weekly at best there is still a strong argument towards burning the non-ethanol. You may be right about E85 becoming the norm before E15 is even considered. And most likely E10 would continue to be marketed for "pre-FFV" equipment. If they completely do away with non-ethanol(also a very good possibility) I guess I'll use E10 with Stabil and once-a-season SeaFoam treatment:0(
P.S.
of course, they will probably "gouge the consumer price-wise" for E10 after E85 dominates just like they are doing now with non-ethanol:0(

WellI don't know if I'm right about E85 becoming the norm or not but if you visit the car dealerships you'll find a lot of cars and trucks that are E85 ready. I went to the dealership here today and purchased a new Ford F-150 and all the 150's with the V8 engines are all FFV vehicles / E85 ready. What I found that's weird is they have no gas caps anymore. I was amazed to find out that everything they sell just about will be E85 ready in the very near future. I really think the e85 is a lot closer than we think.

 

[GentlemanFahmah]

Here's just a small portion of the crap that I took out of the bowl of a Vanguard Briggs & Stratton motor that wouldn't run on Saturday.


This Briggs 12.5 2 cyl engine is in a chipper/shredder that wouldn't run beyond a lumpy idle for anything. Enough fuel was getting through the jet to support the idle, but the float and needle were plugged with varnish/shellac/sand like crap so badly that the bowl couldn't fill up fast enough to support any more fuel than idle, so it would briefly spin up and then die as the bowl emptied.

Complete dis-assembly and a lot of time with carb cleaner and probes. I used a small drill bit to clean the jet and scrubbed the bowl and floats with a small wire brush and 20 ounces of Gumout carb cleaner before it finally got cleaned to "normal". You can see a lot of the corrosion damage to the bottom of the inside of the bowl from the alcohol fuel that sat there with intermittent use. Check out how badly this is pitted and this photo was taken AFTER I had cleaned it. I couldn't do much for the pitting damage beyond getting the shellac like gel/sand junk out


After an hour of scrubbing This is what I finally had to put back on the engine:


This was what I scraped out of the bowl:

When you see this sand like crap that ethanol fuels create in your small engine carburetor float bowl, it's easy to understand why it won't run worth a crap with all this plugging it up!

 

[Carscw]

Here's just a small portion of the crap that I took out of the bowl of a Vanguard Briggs & Stratton motor that wouldn't run on Saturday. <img src="http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/attachments/mower-equipment-operation/21542-post-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-img_3549[1]-jpg"/> This Briggs 12.5 2 cyl engine is in a chipper/shredder that wouldn't run beyond a lumpy idle for anything. Enough fuel was getting through the jet to support the idle, but the float and needle were plugged with varnish/shellac/sand like crap so badly that the bowl couldn't fill up fast enough to support any more fuel than idle, so it would briefly spin up and then die as the bowl emptied. Complete dis-assembly and a lot of time with carb cleaner and probes. I used a small drill bit to clean the jet and scrubbed the bowl and floats with a small wire brush and 20 ounces of Gumout carb cleaner before it finally got cleaned to "normal". You can see a lot of the corrosion damage to the bottom of the inside of the bowl from the alcohol fuel that sat there with intermittent use. Check out how badly this is pitted and this photo was taken AFTER I had cleaned it. I couldn't do much for the pitting damage beyond getting the shellac like gel/sand junk out <img src="http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/attachments/mower-equipment-operation/21543-post-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-img_3551[1]-jpg"/> After an hour of scrubbing This is what I finally had to put back on the engine: <img src="http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/attachments/mower-equipment-operation/21544-post-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-img_3553[1]-jpg"/> This was what I scraped out of the bowl: <img src="http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/attachments/mower-equipment-operation/21545-post-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-img_3555[1]-jpg"/> When you see this sand like crap that ethanol fuels create in your small engine carburetor float bowl, it's easy to understand why it won't run worth a crap with all this plugging it up! <img src="http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/attachments/mower-equipment-operation/21546-post-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-img_3556[1]-jpg"/>

And what test and study's did you do to know that ethanol did this?

Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas.

I still say people blame ethanol for problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of

 

[timotb2]

All good answers for me. Many engines run fine with ethanol and some are strictly forbidden to consume it. Old engines, small engines, boat engines, aircraft engines. I have a Lycoming IO360 engine and the manufacturer specifically forbids it. Besides attracting moisture, it will gum up fuel injectors if that engine was not designed for ethanol as in the case of this Lycoming.

 

[GentlemanFahmah]

And what test and study's did you do to know that ethanol did this?

Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas.

I still say people blame ethanol for problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of

Carscw, I'm not sure where you're coming from but perhaps you can give me the test procedures that you will approve of so we don't waste time with studies that you will dismiss.

For openers, this was not my engine but the engine of a neighbor who is a poster child for casual maintenance; that's where you only fix what breaks and take no preventative steps. So understand that I'm fixing someone else's problem here.

I've been turning wrenches for five of my six decades of life and have watched the effects of new blended fuels on everything from gasket material to floats and needles ruined. It is a problem in antique performance engines as the ethanol flash point is not the same as gasoline, but I'm sure you are already well aware of that. Wonder why they took Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate out of motor oils? ZDDP was a lubricant that was tremendously beneficial to flat tappet motors and diesel engines but the catalytic converters were becoming plated and ineffective when burned motor oil went through the combustion chamber so ZDDP levels are all but gone in motor oil now and there are negative results of that. That is not the discussion here, but it is an example of how reformulated blends have an adverse impact on some engines when all internal combustion engines are expected to run on the same stuff.

There are today a range of additives which have come in to attempt to offset the negative effects of the new ethanol blended fuels and those additives combine in an organic chemical cocktail that will work ok as a combustion chamber fuel source, but are a nightmare for stability. I'm sure you've read all the reports on this already so I won't bore you with the details. My experience is that these additives now have a much faster evaporation rate and when they evaporate out of the fuel, they leave behind the other additives intended to balance the alcohol and those remaining additives are not simpatico with gasoline alone. That in turn is where you see these compounds form and precipitate into small sand-like hard crystals form that are shown in my photos.

In response to your statement "Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas." I strongly disagree. While we had fuel related problems, they were nothing like what ethanol blended fuels are today. 40 years ago, well before ethanol was anything other than ethly alcohol solvent that is commonly used to prep your arm for an injection (rubbing alcohol), I would see varnish and shellac form in fuel systems that were sitting for extended periods. I'm talking no engine start for many months and even years. This was common. You could pull the gas cap and take a whiff of the fuel and it smelled sour and you instantly knew that gas was a dark brown color and the line, the carburetor bowl, needle, seat, jets, and fuel tap were all going to be plugged with varnish. When you went after that with carb cleaner, it dissolved. Fast forward to ethanol blended fuels and now the timeline for trouble is SEVERELY shortened to a few months or less, and, the resultant "varnish" is now a crystalline compound coupled with varnish like gel; a deadly plugging combination.

The tone of your challenge is understand reading in type, but it is confrontational in asking for "And what test and study's [SIC] did you do...". So I'll ask you to tell me what analytical procedures you'd like me to use and I'm happy to try to apply them. I'm a chemist and work in the chemical industry so as long as your request for evidence beyond what I've already given is acceptable, I'll try to reply.

Lastly, I do agree with a portion of your statement and only a portion: "...problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of" People could do a lot of good for themselves, and adversely impact the small and antique engine mechanical trade severely if they simply shut down the fuel supply and ran their engines dry when they are about to have them hibernate for an extended period. I do not subscribe to the concept not run fuel systems dry because the gaskets dry out; I've had engines down for years that were dry of fuel and as soon as fuel was reintroduced it roared to life without incident. Also, ethanol fuels have dissolved more hoses and gaskets on me than have failed by being dry so material compatibility issues are paramount to understanding the breadth of issues brought on by these blended fuels.

In summary, please know that ethanol is not the sole additive in fuels and while we refer to these blended fuels as ethanol, it's really a whole new combustion cocktail with oxygenators; lead scavengers; anti-knock agents; alcohols; various ether compounds (MBTE etc); dyes; and injector cleaners just to name a few. 45 years ago, we only had GM's 1920 invention of tetra-ethyl lead top end lubricant and octane booster and that was about it. So let's run that challenge flag up the pole on the basis of science if you're going to use it, and not conjecture and emotion.

Fair enough?

 

[Nwatson99]

GentlemanFahmah thank you for the write up and photos, the ethanol is bad gas and does not cause build up and issues in a short time frame, why anyone would run that crap is beyond me I only run 93 octane gas in everything.
I remember back in the back when you took a car engine down, if it has a diet of Valvoline oil then is was gunked up like no other.

 

[timotb2]

Carscw, I'm not sure where you're coming from but perhaps you can give me the test procedures that you will approve of so we don't waste time with studies that you will dismiss.

For openers, this was not my engine but the engine of a neighbor who is a poster child for casual maintenance; that's where you only fix what breaks and take no preventative steps. So understand that I'm fixing someone else's problem here.

I've been turning wrenches for five of my six decades of life and have watched the effects of new blended fuels on everything from gasket material to floats and needles ruined. It is a problem in antique performance engines as the ethanol flash point is not the same as gasoline, but I'm sure you are already well aware of that. Wonder why they took Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate out of motor oils? ZDDP was a lubricant that was tremendously beneficial to flat tappet motors and diesel engines but the catalytic converters were becoming plated and ineffective when burned motor oil went through the combustion chamber so ZDDP levels are all but gone in motor oil now and there are negative results of that. That is not the discussion here, but it is an example of how reformulated blends have an adverse impact on some engines when all internal combustion engines are expected to run on the same stuff.

There are today a range of additives which have come in to attempt to offset the negative effects of the new ethanol blended fuels and those additives combine in an organic chemical cocktail that will work ok as a combustion chamber fuel source, but are a nightmare for stability. I'm sure you've read all the reports on this already so I won't bore you with the details. My experience is that these additives now have a much faster evaporation rate and when they evaporate out of the fuel, they leave behind the other additives intended to balance the alcohol and those remaining additives are not simpatico with gasoline alone. That in turn is where you see these compounds form and precipitate into small sand-like hard crystals form that are shown in my photos.

In response to your statement "Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas." I strongly disagree. While we had fuel related problems, they were nothing like what ethanol blended fuels are today. 40 years ago, well before ethanol was anything other than ethly alcohol solvent that is commonly used to prep your arm for an injection (rubbing alcohol), I would see varnish and shellac form in fuel systems that were sitting for extended periods. I'm talking no engine start for many months and even years. This was common. You could pull the gas cap and take a whiff of the fuel and it smelled sour and you instantly knew that gas was a dark brown color and the line, the carburetor bowl, needle, seat, jets, and fuel tap were all going to be plugged with varnish. When you went after that with carb cleaner, it dissolved. Fast forward to ethanol blended fuels and now the timeline for trouble is SEVERELY shortened to a few months or less, and, the resultant "varnish" is now a crystalline compound coupled with varnish like gel; a deadly plugging combination.

The tone of your challenge is understand reading in type, but it is confrontational in asking for "And what test and study's [SIC] did you do...". So I'll ask you to tell me what analytical procedures you'd like me to use and I'm happy to try to apply them. I'm chemist and work in the chemical industry so as long as your request for evidence beyond what I've already given is acceptable, I'll try to reply.

Lastly, I do agree with a portion of your statement and only a portion: "...problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of" People could do a lot of good for themselves, and adversely impact the small and antique engine mechanical trade severely if they simply shut down the fuel supply and ran their engines dry when they are about to have them hibernate for an extended period. I do not subscribe to the concept not run fuel systems dry because the gaskets dry out; I've had engines down for years that were dry of fuel and as soon as fuel was reintroduced it roared to life without incident. Also, ethanol fuels have dissolved more hoses and gaskets on me than have failed by being dry so material compatibility issues are paramount to understanding the breadth of issues brought on by these blended fuels.

In summary, please know that ethanol is not the sole additive in fuels and while we refer to these blended fuels as ethanol, it's really a whole new combustion cocktail with oxygenators; lead scavengers; anti-knock agents; alcohols; various ether compounds (MBTE etc); dyes; and injector cleaners just to name a few. 45 years ago, we only had GM's 1920 invention of tetra-ethyl lead top end lubricant and octane booster and that was about it. So let's run that challenge flag up the pole on the basis of science if you're going to use it, and not conjecture and emotion.

Fair enough?

I don't need a case study to know that ethanol attracts water, and water is bad for engines and components. Further, if the Lycoming engine company says no ethanol for their engines, I trust they have studied the issue completely and satisfactory to know it is BAD for their engines.

 

[panabiker]

GentlemanFahmah thank you for the write up and photos, the ethanol is bad gas and does not cause build up and issues in a short time frame, why anyone would run that crap is beyond me ...

Ethanol is bad from both energy efficiency and total CO2 emission standpoint but it's unlikely ethanol gas will go away any time soon regardless of ethanol lobbying. Ethanol is now used as an oxygenate replacing MBTE since MBTE was found to cause ground water pollution. Until a new, inexpensive oxygenate is developed, 10% ethanol gas will probably be the norm. And by the way, most 93 octane gas also contains ethanol.

 

[Carscw]

Carscw, I'm not sure where you're coming from but perhaps you can give me the test procedures that you will approve of so we don't waste time with studies that you will dismiss. For openers, this was not my engine but the engine of a neighbor who is a poster child for casual maintenance; that's where you only fix what breaks and take no preventative steps. So understand that I'm fixing someone else's problem here. I've been turning wrenches for five of my six decades of life and have watched the effects of new blended fuels on everything from gasket material to floats and needles ruined. It is a problem in antique performance engines as the ethanol flash point is not the same as gasoline, but I'm sure you are already well aware of that. Wonder why they took Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate out of motor oils? ZDDP was a lubricant that was tremendously beneficial to flat tappet motors and diesel engines but the catalytic converters were becoming plated and ineffective when burned motor oil went through the combustion chamber so ZDDP levels are all but gone in motor oil now and there are negative results of that. That is not the discussion here, but it is an example of how reformulated blends have an adverse impact on some engines when all internal combustion engines are expected to run on the same stuff. There are today a range of additives which have come in to attempt to offset the negative effects of the new ethanol blended fuels and those additives combine in an organic chemical cocktail that will work ok as a combustion chamber fuel source, but are a nightmare for stability. I'm sure you've read all the reports on this already so I won't bore you with the details. My experience is that these additives now have a much faster evaporation rate and when they evaporate out of the fuel, they leave behind the other additives intended to balance the alcohol and those remaining additives are not simpatico with gasoline alone. That in turn is where you see these compounds form and precipitate into small sand-like hard crystals form that are shown in my photos. In response to your statement "Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas." I strongly disagree. While we had fuel related problems, they were nothing like what ethanol blended fuels are today. 40 years ago, well before ethanol was anything other than ethly alcohol solvent that is commonly used to prep your arm for an injection (rubbing alcohol), I would see varnish and shellac form in fuel systems that were sitting for extended periods. I'm talking no engine start for many months and even years. This was common. You could pull the gas cap and take a whiff of the fuel and it smelled sour and you instantly knew that gas was a dark brown color and the line, the carburetor bowl, needle, seat, jets, and fuel tap were all going to be plugged with varnish. When you went after that with carb cleaner, it dissolved. Fast forward to ethanol blended fuels and now the timeline for trouble is SEVERELY shortened to a few months or less, and, the resultant "varnish" is now a crystalline compound coupled with varnish like gel; a deadly plugging combination. The tone of your challenge is understand reading in type, but it is confrontational in asking for "And what test and study's [SIC] did you do...". So I'll ask you to tell me what analytical procedures you'd like me to use and I'm happy to try to apply them. I'm chemist and work in the chemical industry so as long as your request for evidence beyond what I've already given is acceptable, I'll try to reply. Lastly, I do agree with a portion of your statement and only a portion: "...problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of" People could do a lot of good for themselves, and adversely impact the small and antique engine mechanical trade severely if they simply shut down the fuel supply and ran their engines dry when they are about to have them hibernate for an extended period. I do not subscribe to the concept not run fuel systems dry because the gaskets dry out; I've had engines down for years that were dry of fuel and as soon as fuel was reintroduced it roared to life without incident. Also, ethanol fuels have dissolved more hoses and gaskets on me than have failed by being dry so material compatibility issues are paramount to understanding the breadth of issues brought on by these blended fuels. In summary, please know that ethanol is not the sole additive in fuels and while we refer to these blended fuels as ethanol, it's really a whole new combustion cocktail with oxygenators; lead scavengers; anti-knock agents; alcohols; various ether compounds (MBTE etc); dyes; and injector cleaners just to name a few. 45 years ago, we only had GM's 1920 invention of tetra-ethyl lead top end lubricant and octane booster and that was about it. So let's run that challenge flag up the pole on the basis of science if you're going to use it, and not conjecture and emotion. Fair enough?

Nice book.

Lots of good info.

So you are saying that the ethanol in he gas COULD have done this to this carb.

You say you have seen what ethanol can do. How do you know it is from the ethanol and not just poorly made parts? We all know things are not made to last anymore like back 30 years ago.

I have mowers that are 10 years old with over a 1000 hours on them and have never had to clean a carb. Could be because ethanol does not hurt then or could be because I change filter and lines.

Gas with ethanol might cause some problems but I have never seen it.
Maybe because I take care of my things.

I have mowers that have been sitting with gas in them for months. They will start and run fine.

IMO all the crap people add to the gas to fight the ethanol does more harm then good.

I run 118 octane in my chevy 632ci
If I was to let fuel sit in the carb for 2 months it would look like the carb you are working on. It has no ethanol in it.

I run e10 in all my mowers I am not going to spend a extra $20 a day for ethanol free gas.

I guess it comes down to how you maintain your things.

Thank you for your input and info. It was very good reading.

 

[Nwatson99]

Ethanol is bad from both energy efficiency and total CO2 emission standpoint but it's unlikely ethanol gas will go away any time soon regardless of ethanol lobbying. Ethanol is now used as an oxygenate replacing MBTE since MBTE was found to cause ground water pollution. Until a new, inexpensive oxygenate is developed, 10% ethanol gas will probably be the norm. And by the way, most 93 octane gas also contains ethanol.

Yes sir it does contain ethanol gas, however the 93 octane having the much higher octane percentage will burn cleaner, hotter, and much better for your engines.
The kid that weed-eats for me was telling me he had to clean his spark plug every month with a wire brush "he was using 87 octane with any fuel mix he could buy", so I told him heck even gave him a brand new plug for his weed eater, then I filled his tank up with my mix and told him from now on try 93 octane gas and stihl ultra mix and if his plug was not cleaner and he did not have to clean it every month I would give him the money for his stihl mix.
The kid just called me minutes before this post to confirm about weed eating this evening and I asked him about his plug with running the 93 octane gas and with stihl ultra mix, he then tells me he just removed his plug before calling me knowing I was going to ask him about it and it was clean with zero need for a wire brush.
So with my personal trials, my family, friends, and now the kid weed-eating for me telling me all the same results I know 87 octane, lower octane ratings, or the real cheap ethanol gas is bad for lawn equipment, mowers, etc. and no one will ever be able to convince me differently.