post proof of bad ethanol problems

[pjturchen]

No one, not even the car manufacturers, unless the fuel system is specifically rated to run on E85, recommends running anything more than E10 because of the corrosive properties of the ethanol and the damage it can do to hoses and orings. Other than that, and the decrease in fuel economy (many reported seeing as much as 2mpg less when gas stations began switching to the e10), I see no disadvantage to using e10. Straight gas might run better, but I've been using e10 in all mystuff, and all I do is treat it with some stabil over the winter and havn't had any issues.

The main issues is getting the refiners to make the different octane levels the same. You can have consistent octane levels but all the other trash that is in gas varies so much. The automakers actually would build better engines to accommodate any blend of ethanol.

 

[pjturchen]

I have worked with small engines all my life. My Dad owned an outdoor power equipment dealership and this topic came up quite often. Ethanol is not bad for a small engine. What is bad is when you allow ethanol blended fuel to sit in the tank or the carb for extended periods of time. The earlier post was on the money. Ethanol attracts condensation. Over time this can damage carburetors and internal engine parts. If you use your equipment everyday and run all he fuel out everyday you will not have any issues. Years ago, fuel lines could not hold up to ethanol blended fuels. This is not the case today.

If you are homeowner who only runs a few tanks a year through your equipment I would say you should buy fuel with no ethanol. If you use your equipment everyday it won't matter as long as you don't leave the fuel in while you store it over the winter. I myself am a typical homeowner now. I work on small engines for fun and to relax. I never drain my fuel over the winter, I only use the highest octane fuel I can find at the gas station and I never, ever have an issue starting my equipment come springtime. I made plenty of money each spring (and winter with snowblowers) from people who did not do this. I also worked with plenty of Lawn cutting services who only bought 87 octane blended fuel that never had an issue. This is a topic that will be debated for quite some time to come, I'm sure.

Complete bull here!!! I have a POS lawnmower that I use 10% ETOH in every year. The funny thing is this thing will sit through the winter months with snow on top. I know I shouldn't treat it like this but it starts every year with no problems. No deterioration of any fuel system components. My snow blower is the same in treatment and that is with a mixed gas. As for the condensation???? What the hell do you think is in a bottle of heat that you use to keep your fuel dry?????

 

[pjturchen]

Another ethanol-bashing comment......have you noticed the increase in the price of meat & dairy products since the proliferation of ethanol gasoline. Information I have gotten from Tennessee farmers that I know is that the competitive pricing for maintaining "corn-fed" stock with the biofuel producers scooping up huge corn crops have filtered down to the price they have to charge to market their products because of increased feed costs. That......2-4mpg less fuel mileage economy, "debatable" adverse affects on fuel systems.....can someone please tell what is GOOD about ethanol???? And don't tell me "environmental benefits"....my 1995 Chevy truck passed emissions testing before ethanol and actually, the only time it failed was with a post-ethanol annual MARTA test to renew the tags(good ole SeaFoam cured that failed test). Also......have you noticed how many "gas treatment products" have come to market over the last few years(since ethanol became widespread) with the intention of helping your vehicle pass the emission tests(what's up with that:0)

Check your facts. What do you think happens to the corn that goes for biofuels? Let's just rule out that it is not human consumable corn. Secondly do you think that only ethanol is made from it and it goes to land waste? The cattle get the corn back with all the nutritional value. It is supplied outward as the ethanol plants grind corn to make ETOH. Their is so much more to it than what you're stating. Typical corn #2 yellow has an overabundance of starch. The ethanol plant is only after the starch. Because it goes through the process of cooking to make mash. Then to fermentation & distillation for making alcohol. The rest is separated out and sold back to the farmer at a competitive price. Not only that it is readily digestible for the cattle.

pturchen@gmail.com

 

[djdicetn]

Check your facts. What do you think happens to the corn that goes for biofuels? Let's just rule out that it is not human consumable corn. Secondly do you think that only ethanol is made from it and it goes to land waste? The cattle get the corn back with all the nutritional value. It is supplied outward as the ethanol plants grind corn to make ETOH. Their is so much more to it than what you're stating. Typical corn #2 yellow has an overabundance of starch. The ethanol plant is only after the starch. Because it goes through the process of cooking to make mash. Then to fermentation & distillation for making alcohol. The rest is separated out and sold back to the farmer at a competitive price. Not only that it is readily digestible for the cattle.

pturchen@gmail.com

Since you critiqued my post(aside from "adding" the "Another ethanol-bashing comment..." to it), I'll off a rebuttal. Soooooo, do you have friends that are farmers there in Colorado(hemp doesn't count:0) All I can say is the farmers I know here in Tennessee that raise cattle have told me the price of their feed for the cattle has increased since the introduction of ethanol(and I have no reason to think they would lie to me about that). Next....are you old enough to have used non-ethanol gasoline in your automobile/truck?? If so, are you getting the same gas mileage using E10 that you did in that same vehicle under the same driving conditions than you got using the pure gasoline??? Next.....Are you saving $ at the pump now over what you paid before E10 was introduced(or putting ANY additives to your E10 fuel)???? I'll let everybody else argue about the adverse effect on small engines(or engine-related components), but the three specific areas I mentioned are absolute facts. That's my story and I'm sticking to it:0)

P.S.
To all others, I consider those three disadvantages of ethanol...........yes, a PROBLEM.....and proof thereof:0)

 

[exotion]

Before ethonol was leaded gas. Engines were not built to burn ethonol. So no that same vehicle's milage would suffer because of that. Take a stock 1970 nova next to a modern malibu same class vehicle the new malibu has more power and better milage so that argument is invalid.

Did some research on ethonol bans in aeronautics. Ethonol expands at high altitudes and can crack fuel lines, pumps, and damage engines. As you can imagine no one wants to risk that.

I would imagine places like Washington that ban non ethonol gas would force manufacturers to make ethonol friendly machines, that and its been around for 30 years and is not going anywhere...

Vehicles are starting to use e85 and boasting significant milage increase. (Though Ford just got sued for lying about a few of there vehicles milage) hard to believe ethonol is actually damaging things unless you live above 15000ft..

 

[Carscw]

What oil does everyone use?

 

[den052]

Well this is quite a long thread and arguing for or against Ethanol is not going to convince anyone either way. However, old equipment is not designed to run on Ethanol period. Newest and greatest vehicles survive fine with it. Someone made the statement that Ethanol increases gas mileage and it doesn't. Gas mileage suffers a little with E85. Don't know if the price difference for E85 and the negative gas mileage reduction would offset the cheaper price or not. I have been trying to get my son to compute a tank of E85 and Regular. His mileage computer indicates a reduction of about 5-10 mpg with E85. Experts will agree that E85 is not as efficient as Gasoline but it is cheaper per gallon.

I know as a diesel mechanic that the Ultra low sulfur diesel fuels shrink rubber seals in injection systems and the older diesels start to leak diesel fuel externally from the injection pumps. A way to temporarily stop the leakage is to add about 1 gal of E85 to a 20 gallon tank of Diesel Fuel. The rubber o rings swell up a little and stop leaking for about 3 to 6 weeks. This causes no harm to the injection system. The way to cure the leaks permanently is to disassemble the injection pump and install new o rings and rubber seals. The experts have found that somehow, rubber parts that were used with sulfated diesel fuel and is now subject to ultra low sulfur diesel fuel causes the rubber to shrink. A pump overhauled with NEW rubber seals (same material), but uses only ultra low sulfur diesel fuel apparently is not subject to the leakage problem. But I know for a fact that E85 will temporarily fix the leakage by swelling the rubber seals back to normal for a WHILE.

Older machines using Ethanol in gasoline may have problems. Newer equipment designed to run on it won't, PERIOD.
Experts also will tell you not to run E85 in cars not designed for it as it will cause certain parts to fail as the parts weren't designed to be run on E85. So big question is: 10-15 percent Ethanol is ok, but 85 percent is not? I still think older equipment is not designed to run on either mixture mainly because of sealing problems.

 

[exotion]

E85 is newer and cars made for it boast better milage. Cars not designed for it are not going to get the milage benefit.. just like cars not made for e10 didn't get the milage boost. Manufacturers are telling people to not rib e85 because it makes cars not made for it run rough due to timing issues.... It would be like burning premium in a regular car.

I am wondering about the quality of parts issue. Engines are not made the same way they used to be but technology has come leaps and strides. According to my research newer plastics are of a better quality with a higher melting temp, less harmful chemicals (bpa), and lighter weight. Rubber seems to have taken a dip looks like most fuel lines and rubber is not even fully rubber anymore. It's a polyrubber reinforced with a netting. The amount of rubber in our rubber (including vehicle tires) is less than 30%. It's a mix of plastic and other by products that changes by manufacturer. I am having a hard time finding the ingredient lists for basic rubber fuel lines.

Wondering if these by products could be damaged by ethonol?

 

[den052]

Yes things such as EcoBoost, (Ford), do offer increased mileage. However if you look at the actual mileage charts (or EPA ratings), when you run E85, the mileage drops somewhat. Manufacturers are looking at everything to increase mileage and have made substantial gains. They are cutting the alternator out when it is not needed, 6 and 8 speed automatics, and many other things such as storing energy when you go down a hill, to be used when you climb the next hill.

As I've mentioned before, Ethanol does not harm parts that are designed to operate with it. It does deteriorate rubber gas lines that were not formulated for it. Most cars now have plastic lines with special plastic formulas. Experts tell you do not use E85 in a vehicle not designed for it as it can cause injector problems and fuel system damage because those parts are not designed for it. My 2005 Impala says right in the owners manual not to use it.

I'm not bashing E85 or gas with 10-15% ethanol. I am just saying that older equipment not designed for it suffers. And yes, I have used regular gas in my equipment wondering about the effects of it. I can assuredly tell you that I have had rubber gas lines SWELL and become loose on the fittings and replaced them. I have had diaphragms in carburetors deteriorate and split (probably because of the ethanol). But it was in equipment that was made before this ETHANOL thing came about.

The big question is:

Does making ethanol cause a surplus of fuel (and by how much), or how much gasoline or diesel fuel does it take to make a gallon of ethanol?

I have heard that by the time you figure in the fuel used to plow the field, fuel for cultivating, harvesting, transport to the plant, transporting used mash or unwanted product back to the farm to be recycled, and the fuel burned to boil the alcohol out of the mash, it is a negative value! (And you could add the negative effect of higher prices for corn not used for fuel consumption too.)

Interesting, someone should put a farm and a ethanol plant under a DOME, (like the TV show). See if 2 years down the road, do they have excess fuel or not?

 

[pjturchen]

Since you critiqued my post(aside from "adding" the "Another ethanol-bashing comment..." to it), I'll off a rebuttal. Soooooo, do you have friends that are farmers there in Colorado(hemp doesn't count:0) All I can say is the farmers I know here in Tennessee that raise cattle have told me the price of their feed for the cattle has increased since the introduction of ethanol(and I have no reason to think they would lie to me about that). Next....are you old enough to have used non-ethanol gasoline in your automobile/truck?? If so, are you getting the same gas mileage using E10 that you did in that same vehicle under the same driving conditions than you got using the pure gasoline??? Next.....Are you saving $ at the pump now over what you paid before E10 was introduced(or putting ANY additives to your E10 fuel)???? I'll let everybody else argue about the adverse effect on small engines(or engine-related components), but the three specific areas I mentioned are absolute facts. That's my story and I'm sticking to it:0)

P.S.
To all others, I consider those three disadvantages of ethanol...........yes, a PROBLEM.....and proof thereof:0)

Very good! We grow plenty of corn here in Colorado. The expansion at high altitude doesn't add up. If you take a gas sample as is with 10% ethanol and a separate sample of 100% ethanol in two plastic containers. You will find mass expansion of the gas sample while the ethanol sample has no expansion. The first car built was designed to run on ethanol. It even had an adjustable carburetor in case you were running a blend. If Henry Ford could build a vehicle like this during his time then what is the issue now. Big oil will have you believe this that and the other. I can send over factual studies and testing that have proven the gas quality from refiners is far worse as the years have moved along. Because of that poor quality it is destroying fuel system components. The state of Colorado has plenty of feed yards around here that have thousands of head of cattle that absolutely love the feed. The price is competitive and have been feeding this for 10 years or better. Please tell me that a state such as Colorado who is a little behind the agriculture times is not doing better than Tennessee when it comes to farming & feeding. I can get you the information if you would like? I'm not here to start rants or raves about anything really. Yes I do work for the industry and it has proven itself more than enough. I just want to reach out to people like you and get the information in your hands. If anything get you more contacts for you to do your own investigative research.

pturchen@gmail.com

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.