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post proof of bad ethanol problems
#1
exotion
exotion
So I am not the only one getting annoyed at every problem getting blamed on ethanol.
I want proof. Actual with sources proof posted here.
If you can find some hard evidence and facts let me know.
I want proof. Actual with sources proof posted here.
If you can find some hard evidence and facts let me know.
#2
Carscw
Carscw
All your going to hear is. I saw it happen to fuel lines. I have asked the same thing because I have never had a problem because of it.
(( cowboy up and get over it ))
(( cowboy up and get over it ))
#3
exotion
exotion
That's why I asked for proof " I saw" does not count as proof. Show me pics, internet sites that state proof
#4
B
Brucebotti
B
Brucebotti
That's all we have here in CT is 10% ethanol, and I have never encountered a problem with it.
Bruce
Bruce
#5
chobbs1957
Maybe I'm gullible and naive! I grew up around cars, and spent some years working in a service station as teenager back in the mid-70's, when you bought gas, got oil changes, and got minor repairs at the local service station. I've been running lawn mowers since I was about 8 years old.
Those were the days before electronic fuel injection, even before electronic ignition cars. We had much different blends of gasoline then. Engines were designed to run a much richer fuel to air mix. It was common to have to rebuild carburetors after about 3-5 years or 60-80K miles. They were challenging to keep adjusted properly.
I understand
The problems we see with poor quality fuel on smaller power equipment today are very similar to what we saw on cars back in the heyday of carburetors, only worse. Avoiding ethanol based gasoline is part of total preventive management plan, but it is not a single solution to guaranteeing no fuel system problems.
While I may fail to exercise the discipline necessary to keep it up, my plan includes:
I work as an agronomist with commercial farming operations. Much of what we deal with in maximizing crop production inputs to increase profits in our fields involves a "total management strategy" approach. It makes no difference, for example, to buy the best hybrid of corn that has the genetics for a top yield if you do a poor job of fertilizing, tillage, weed control, or insect control. Some things we know to manage with a mindset to prevent problems, others we manage once the problem manifests itself. I guess I am applying some of the same logic with power equipment maintenance. The old saying that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" applies, and may not have ever been more applicable with outdoor power equipment than it is with today's mix of fuel and common equipment.
I am sure I will still have problems sooner or later, even fuel system troubles. Over the decades, my number one problem with 4 cycle equipment has been burning oil and carburetors second. My number one problem with handheld equipment is carburetors. I plan to reduce the chances of carburetor failure with this program, while increasing the the chances of keeping things easy to crank.
chobbs1957
That's why I asked for proof " I saw" does not count as proof. Show me pics, internet sites that state proof
Maybe I'm gullible and naive! I grew up around cars, and spent some years working in a service station as teenager back in the mid-70's, when you bought gas, got oil changes, and got minor repairs at the local service station. I've been running lawn mowers since I was about 8 years old.
Those were the days before electronic fuel injection, even before electronic ignition cars. We had much different blends of gasoline then. Engines were designed to run a much richer fuel to air mix. It was common to have to rebuild carburetors after about 3-5 years or 60-80K miles. They were challenging to keep adjusted properly.
I understand
- E10 gas is 10% ethanol, a close cousin, if you will, to alchohol. Alcohol did not use to be in gasolines back in the day when carburetors were being developed.
- Ethanol blends of gasoline, I am told and believe, tend to attract more moisture and condensation where stored.
- Outdoor power equipment units have small carburetors, and thus more sensitive to operating under adverse conditions of fuel or air.
- Lines, o-rings, seals, etc. are materials that will deteriorate and lose their texture, negatively affecting their ability to seal against fuel and air leaks. Alcohol in the gasoline, even at low levels of 10%, after lengthy use or long term storage may understandably have a negative effect on the lines, o-rings, seals, and gaskets that were not designed for it.
- I have read that nearly all internal combustion engines are now designed to run a lean fuel-air ratio, trying to make them burn cleaner. This makes it that much harder to get the power from the fuel-air mix, as the engine power demand will be wanting more from the carburetor.
- To compete, many manufacturers look at any way they can to keep manufacturing margins up, as competition, both foreign and domestic, will force them to squeeze every dollar they can.
The problems we see with poor quality fuel on smaller power equipment today are very similar to what we saw on cars back in the heyday of carburetors, only worse. Avoiding ethanol based gasoline is part of total preventive management plan, but it is not a single solution to guaranteeing no fuel system problems.
While I may fail to exercise the discipline necessary to keep it up, my plan includes:
- Using ethanol free gasoline. I drive to a convenience store twenty miles away about once a month and fill 2-5 cans of 5 gallons each. I have other business in that town, and a couple of places there that sell no-ethanol gas.
- I add Sta-Bil fuel stabilizer to the can.
- if a piece of equipment is going to go more than three weeds without being cranked, shut off the fuel and run it until it is dry and shuts down.
- I use high quality Stihl synthetic 2-cycle mix for my handheld stuff. I bought a six pack each time I bought a new piece, as they offered a 1 year warranty extension if I bought and agreed to use it.
- I am using a Mr. Funnel system to transfer fuel. It filters out impurities in gas, including water.
I work as an agronomist with commercial farming operations. Much of what we deal with in maximizing crop production inputs to increase profits in our fields involves a "total management strategy" approach. It makes no difference, for example, to buy the best hybrid of corn that has the genetics for a top yield if you do a poor job of fertilizing, tillage, weed control, or insect control. Some things we know to manage with a mindset to prevent problems, others we manage once the problem manifests itself. I guess I am applying some of the same logic with power equipment maintenance. The old saying that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" applies, and may not have ever been more applicable with outdoor power equipment than it is with today's mix of fuel and common equipment.
I am sure I will still have problems sooner or later, even fuel system troubles. Over the decades, my number one problem with 4 cycle equipment has been burning oil and carburetors second. My number one problem with handheld equipment is carburetors. I plan to reduce the chances of carburetor failure with this program, while increasing the the chances of keeping things easy to crank.
#6
djdicetn
You can prove it yourself. Here's how:
1)Take one(any) of your mowers out of service in regard to your business.
2)Fill it up at the beginning of the season with fresh regular/unleaded/ethanol gasoline.
3)Start it and run the engine for 30 minutes and turn it off.
4)Store the mower until the end of the season.
5)Get the mower out at the end of the season and start it up, running it for 30 minutes and turn it off.
6)Store the mower for the winter.
7)Next beginning of the season start the mower(if it will). Top up with more ethanol gas and repeat Steps 2-6.
If this mower isn't "ruined" in 2 seasons....at most 3 seasons of this regiment of ethanol gas, you've proved it isn't harmful......otherwise you have your proof.
It's more the moisture/water that the ethanol additive attracts(no combustion engine is designed to run on a high percentage content of water) as well as the ethanol itself(in regards to long periods of storage in regular gas lines).
Personally, I don't need proof as I've only got one lawn mower, cannot afford to take it out of service to prove that ethanol is bad for it and am just not willing to gamble.
Again, I reiterate....if a Kawasaki manual specifically states that using gasoline with ethanol in excess of 10% "voids the engine warranty" why doe they say that??? My interpretation of that is why would 11% be harmful(your position on ethanol)???? If 11% is that bad, IMHO 1% can't be "good".
P.S.
I can honestly say that I have "performed the steps above" years ago with "regular/unleaded/non-ethanol" gasoline in a lawn tractor I purchased in 1993. I did this for better than 19 years(never draining the gas tank or shutting off the fuel supply at the end of the season). I actually NEVER had any fuel-related problems with that mower that was retired in 2012(19 years of running non-ethanol gas). I sure wouldn't try that with ethanol gasoline!!!! I put ethanol gas in a front-tine tiller and the next season it wouldn't start. Sea-Foam got it going again, but it still has to have the choke partially on to keep it from dying. That's enough proof for me:0)
djdicetn
So I am not the only one getting annoyed at every problem getting blamed on ethanol.
I want proof. Actual with sources proof posted here.
If you can find some hard evidence and facts let me know.
You can prove it yourself. Here's how:
1)Take one(any) of your mowers out of service in regard to your business.
2)Fill it up at the beginning of the season with fresh regular/unleaded/ethanol gasoline.
3)Start it and run the engine for 30 minutes and turn it off.
4)Store the mower until the end of the season.
5)Get the mower out at the end of the season and start it up, running it for 30 minutes and turn it off.
6)Store the mower for the winter.
7)Next beginning of the season start the mower(if it will). Top up with more ethanol gas and repeat Steps 2-6.
If this mower isn't "ruined" in 2 seasons....at most 3 seasons of this regiment of ethanol gas, you've proved it isn't harmful......otherwise you have your proof.
It's more the moisture/water that the ethanol additive attracts(no combustion engine is designed to run on a high percentage content of water) as well as the ethanol itself(in regards to long periods of storage in regular gas lines).
Personally, I don't need proof as I've only got one lawn mower, cannot afford to take it out of service to prove that ethanol is bad for it and am just not willing to gamble.
Again, I reiterate....if a Kawasaki manual specifically states that using gasoline with ethanol in excess of 10% "voids the engine warranty" why doe they say that??? My interpretation of that is why would 11% be harmful(your position on ethanol)???? If 11% is that bad, IMHO 1% can't be "good".
P.S.
I can honestly say that I have "performed the steps above" years ago with "regular/unleaded/non-ethanol" gasoline in a lawn tractor I purchased in 1993. I did this for better than 19 years(never draining the gas tank or shutting off the fuel supply at the end of the season). I actually NEVER had any fuel-related problems with that mower that was retired in 2012(19 years of running non-ethanol gas). I sure wouldn't try that with ethanol gasoline!!!! I put ethanol gas in a front-tine tiller and the next season it wouldn't start. Sea-Foam got it going again, but it still has to have the choke partially on to keep it from dying. That's enough proof for me:0)
#7
Carscw
Nice story but you can not do a test like this with just one mower it would not prove anything.
You would need two mowers same make and model both brand new one with ethanol and one without. I bet they both end up the same.
Ok a man brings his blower to a pawn shop starts it to show it runs. They put it in the back room with gas still in it. 120 days later after he does not come back for it they put it on the floor to sell 5 people start it in the next month still on the old gas. Now you go in and buy it and add more has and it runs just fine for the next year. How can this be? I will tell how.
Because this is all made up bullshit from the mower builders to explain why the bellow grade cheap **** the use to build their mowers falls apart in a year.
I have mowers out back that sit for months I can go start any of them and cut the grass with no problems.
For many years we would go buy stuff to add to our gas well guess what it all has ethanol in it.
So still no one can prove that ethanol does any harm.
(( cowboy up and get over it ))
Carscw
You can prove it yourself. Here's how:
1)Take one(any) of your mowers out of service in regard to your business.
2)Fill it up at the beginning of the season with fresh regular/unleaded/ethanol gasoline.
3)Start it and run the engine for 30 minutes and turn it off.
4)Store the mower until the end of the season.
5)Get the mower out at the end of the season and start it up, running it for 30 minutes and turn it off.
6)Store the mower for the winter.
7)Next beginning of the season start the mower(if it will). Top up with more ethanol gas and repeat Steps 2-6.
If this mower isn't "ruined" in 2 seasons....at most 3 seasons of this regiment of ethanol gas, you've proved it isn't harmful......otherwise you have your proof.
It's more the moisture/water that the ethanol additive attracts(no combustion engine is designed to run on a high percentage content of water) as well as the ethanol itself(in regards to long periods of storage in regular gas lines).
Personally, I don't need proof as I've only got one lawn mower, cannot afford to take it out of service to prove that ethanol is bad for it and am just not willing to gamble.
Again, I reiterate....if a Kawasaki manual specifically states that using gasoline with ethanol in excess of 10% "voids the engine warranty" why doe they say that??? My interpretation of that is why would 11% be harmful(your position on ethanol)???? If 11% is that bad, IMHO 1% can't be "good".
P.S.
I can honestly say that I have "performed the steps above" years ago with "regular/unleaded/non-ethanol" gasoline in a lawn tractor I purchased in 1993. I did this for better than 19 years(never draining the gas tank or shutting off the fuel supply at the end of the season). I actually NEVER had any fuel-related problems with that mower that was retired in 2012(19 years of running non-ethanol gas). I sure wouldn't try that with ethanol gasoline!!!! I put ethanol gas in a front-tine tiller and the next season it wouldn't start. Sea-Foam got it going again, but it still has to have the choke partially on to keep it from dying. That's enough proof for me:0)
Nice story but you can not do a test like this with just one mower it would not prove anything.
You would need two mowers same make and model both brand new one with ethanol and one without. I bet they both end up the same.
Ok a man brings his blower to a pawn shop starts it to show it runs. They put it in the back room with gas still in it. 120 days later after he does not come back for it they put it on the floor to sell 5 people start it in the next month still on the old gas. Now you go in and buy it and add more has and it runs just fine for the next year. How can this be? I will tell how.
Because this is all made up bullshit from the mower builders to explain why the bellow grade cheap **** the use to build their mowers falls apart in a year.
I have mowers out back that sit for months I can go start any of them and cut the grass with no problems.
For many years we would go buy stuff to add to our gas well guess what it all has ethanol in it.
So still no one can prove that ethanol does any harm.
(( cowboy up and get over it ))
#8
A
afoulk
A
afoulk
No one, not even the car manufacturers, unless the fuel system is specifically rated to run on E85, recommends running anything more than E10 because of the corrosive properties of the ethanol and the damage it can do to hoses and orings. Other than that, and the decrease in fuel economy (many reported seeing as much as 2mpg less when gas stations began switching to the e10), I see no disadvantage to using e10. Straight gas might run better, but I've been using e10 in all mystuff, and all I do is treat it with some stabil over the winter and havn't had any issues.
#9
exotion
I believe your test would prove more human error and failure to properly use and maintain your equipment that's not proof.
exotion
You can prove it yourself. Here's how:
1)Take one(any) of your mowers out of service in regard to your business.
2)Fill it up at the beginning of the season with fresh regular/unleaded/ethanol gasoline.
3)Start it and run the engine for 30 minutes and turn it off.
4)Store the mower until the end of the season.
5)Get the mower out at the end of the season and start it up, running it for 30 minutes and turn it off.
6)Store the mower for the winter.
7)Next beginning of the season start the mower(if it will). Top up with more ethanol gas and repeat Steps 2-6.
If this mower isn't "ruined" in 2 seasons....at most 3 seasons of this regiment of ethanol gas, you've proved it isn't harmful......otherwise you have your proof.
It's more the moisture/water that the ethanol additive attracts(no combustion engine is designed to run on a high percentage content of water) as well as the ethanol itself(in regards to long periods of storage in regular gas lines).
Personally, I don't need proof as I've only got one lawn mower, cannot afford to take it out of service to prove that ethanol is bad for it and am just not willing to gamble.
Again, I reiterate....if a Kawasaki manual specifically states that using gasoline with ethanol in excess of 10% "voids the engine warranty" why doe they say that??? My interpretation of that is why would 11% be harmful(your position on ethanol)???? If 11% is that bad, IMHO 1% can't be "good".
P.S.
I can honestly say that I have "performed the steps above" years ago with "regular/unleaded/non-ethanol" gasoline in a lawn tractor I purchased in 1993. I did this for better than 19 years(never draining the gas tank or shutting off the fuel supply at the end of the season). I actually NEVER had any fuel-related problems with that mower that was retired in 2012(19 years of running non-ethanol gas). I sure wouldn't try that with ethanol gasoline!!!! I put ethanol gas in a front-tine tiller and the next season it wouldn't start. Sea-Foam got it going again, but it still has to have the choke partially on to keep it from dying. That's enough proof for me:0)
I believe your test would prove more human error and failure to properly use and maintain your equipment that's not proof.
#10
J
jtk
J
jtk
I have worked with small engines all my life. My Dad owned an outdoor power equipment dealership and this topic came up quite often. Ethanol is not bad for a small engine. What is bad is when you allow ethanol blended fuel to sit in the tank or the carb for extended periods of time. The earlier post was on the money. Ethanol attracts condensation. Over time this can damage carburetors and internal engine parts. If you use your equipment everyday and run all he fuel out everyday you will not have any issues. Years ago, fuel lines could not hold up to ethanol blended fuels. This is not the case today.
If you are homeowner who only runs a few tanks a year through your equipment I would say you should buy fuel with no ethanol. If you use your equipment everyday it won't matter as long as you don't leave the fuel in while you store it over the winter. I myself am a typical homeowner now. I work on small engines for fun and to relax. I never drain my fuel over the winter, I only use the highest octane fuel I can find at the gas station and I never, ever have an issue starting my equipment come springtime. I made plenty of money each spring (and winter with snowblowers) from people who did not do this. I also worked with plenty of Lawn cutting services who only bought 87 octane blended fuel that never had an issue. This is a topic that will be debated for quite some time to come, I'm sure.
If you are homeowner who only runs a few tanks a year through your equipment I would say you should buy fuel with no ethanol. If you use your equipment everyday it won't matter as long as you don't leave the fuel in while you store it over the winter. I myself am a typical homeowner now. I work on small engines for fun and to relax. I never drain my fuel over the winter, I only use the highest octane fuel I can find at the gas station and I never, ever have an issue starting my equipment come springtime. I made plenty of money each spring (and winter with snowblowers) from people who did not do this. I also worked with plenty of Lawn cutting services who only bought 87 octane blended fuel that never had an issue. This is a topic that will be debated for quite some time to come, I'm sure.
#11
Ric
I agree exotion it's more human error and failure to properly use and maintain your equipment that's way people have the problems they have, they just have to have something to blame. This ethanol thing is nothing more than a myth that was created by the oil company's. Ethanol is a bio-fuel which is a gas substitute and using it cuts the oil company's profits and they want you to think and believe it's the worst stuff in the world when in reality it doesn't hurt a thing. It doesn't hurt plastic, rubber fuel lines, seals or metal fuel tanks. All those thing have been approved to run 10% ethanol and have been for god knows how many years.
Ric
I believe your test would prove more human error and failure to properly use and maintain your equipment that's not proof.
I agree exotion it's more human error and failure to properly use and maintain your equipment that's way people have the problems they have, they just have to have something to blame. This ethanol thing is nothing more than a myth that was created by the oil company's. Ethanol is a bio-fuel which is a gas substitute and using it cuts the oil company's profits and they want you to think and believe it's the worst stuff in the world when in reality it doesn't hurt a thing. It doesn't hurt plastic, rubber fuel lines, seals or metal fuel tanks. All those thing have been approved to run 10% ethanol and have been for god knows how many years.
#12
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Boy I'm glad that the lawn care specialists are such experts on the problems with todays fuels. You probably won't accept my proof, but it might help the average uneducated lawn specialists. About 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs. Problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment. What we were finding was, gel in fuel bowls, corrosion of aluminum carb bodies, fuel lines and filters softening and breaking down in four cycle, hradening and breaking in two cycle. If you are in the repair business this is not how to keep customers. We tried everything that we knew to find what we were missing, doing wrong, or what is causing our problems. We had heard about people suggesting ethanol causing the problem and decided to change the fuel we used in the shop to non ethanol fuel and had a sticker made up to educate our customers which is put on every piece of equipment that leaves the shop. Since doing so we have cut our comebacks by over 90% and have also seen our business increase as more new customers are returning with different equipment which other dealers have not been able to repair. Most of them now use the non ethanol fuel in all of their small engine equipment and have told us that they are please with the way they running and now only see us for routine service.
Also, one of the small engine trade magazines just had an article by a VP at Briggs, who talked about the problems which engine manufacturers are having with the different fuels out there and what they are doing to find a solution.
Is this the proof you want, probably not, but for the average guy who reads this, it is a way which we have helped our customers and it only costs about $10.00 a year. (That's figuring 40 cents more per gallon for the customer who uses 25 gallons a year in their small engine equipment). To me that's cheap insurance.
For those that question whether we really have experience in our shop, there are four mechanics who have over 125 years in the service industry, with the lowest guy with only about 20. Certificates on our wall include those for working on 8 small engine manufacturers, 6 equipment manufactures ranging for saws to 140 HP tractors, so we are not a bunch of dumbos.
Is there a problem with ethanol in the small engine industry? It all depends on what you believe. I say yes and right now the solution for us is paying 40 cents more per gallon of gas.
Please. Remember to read my signature.
Also, one of the small engine trade magazines just had an article by a VP at Briggs, who talked about the problems which engine manufacturers are having with the different fuels out there and what they are doing to find a solution.
Is this the proof you want, probably not, but for the average guy who reads this, it is a way which we have helped our customers and it only costs about $10.00 a year. (That's figuring 40 cents more per gallon for the customer who uses 25 gallons a year in their small engine equipment). To me that's cheap insurance.
For those that question whether we really have experience in our shop, there are four mechanics who have over 125 years in the service industry, with the lowest guy with only about 20. Certificates on our wall include those for working on 8 small engine manufacturers, 6 equipment manufactures ranging for saws to 140 HP tractors, so we are not a bunch of dumbos.
Is there a problem with ethanol in the small engine industry? It all depends on what you believe. I say yes and right now the solution for us is paying 40 cents more per gallon of gas.
Please. Remember to read my signature.
#13
exotion
exotion
I am not doubting anyones experience... I would like to consider myself decent at repair rebuild small engines and equipment. And I read every post on this forum and I see a lot of blame on ethanol when I use it daily my family uses maybe 5 gallons a year with no winter draining that's a lot of sitting and they and I and so many others don't have any problems
#14
chobbs1957
Thanks for your opinion, Rivets. I like your blunt honesty. It's believable. :thumbsup:
chobbs1957
Boy I'm glad that the lawn care specialists are such experts on the problems with todays fuels. You probably won't accept my proof, but it might help the average uneducated lawn specialists. About 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs. Problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment. What we were finding was, gel in fuel bowls, corrosion of aluminum carb bodies, fuel lines and filters softening and breaking down in four cycle, hradening and breaking in two cycle. If you are in the repair business this is not how to keep customers. We tried everything that we knew to find what we were missing, doing wrong, or what is causing our problems. We had heard about people suggesting ethanol causing the problem and decided to change the fuel we used in the shop to non ethanol fuel and had a sticker made up to educate our customers which is put on every piece of equipment that leaves the shop. Since doing so we have cut our comebacks by over 90% and have also seen our business increase as more new customers are returning with different equipment which other dealers have not been able to repair. Most of them now use the non ethanol fuel in all of their small engine equipment and have told us that they are please with the way they running and now only see us for routine service.
Also, one of the small engine trade magazines just had an article by a VP at Briggs, who talked about the problems which engine manufacturers are having with the different fuels out there and what they are doing to find a solution.
Is this the proof you want, probably not, but for the average guy who reads this, it is a way which we have helped our customers and it only costs about $10.00 a year. (That's figuring 40 cents more per gallon for the customer who uses 25 gallons a year in their small engine equipment). To me that's cheap insurance.
For those that question whether we really have experience in our shop, there are four mechanics who have over 125 years in the service industry, with the lowest guy with only about 20. Certificates on our wall include those for working on 8 small engine manufacturers, 6 equipment manufactures ranging for saws to 140 HP tractors, so we are not a bunch of dumbos.
Is there a problem with ethanol in the small engine industry? It all depends on what you believe. I say yes and right now the solution for us is paying 40 cents more per gallon of gas.
Please. Remember to read my signature.
Thanks for your opinion, Rivets. I like your blunt honesty. It's believable. :thumbsup:
#15
Ric
Well cheer up if you think your having problems now, wait until the E15 gets here. There already using it in cars in the midwest and they have been making FFVs since the 1980s and there dozens of models currently available, there running E85 and there are 10 Gas stations currently in the state of Florida that sell E 85 for FFvs so it's here.
From personal experience I've been running the ethanol gas in all my Stihl equipment, Honda, Briggs, Kohler and Kawasaki engines for the last six or seven years and I've never had an ethanol related issue.
Ric
Boy I'm glad that the lawn care specialists are such experts on the problems with todays fuels. You probably won't accept my proof, but it might help the average uneducated lawn specialists. About 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs. Problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment. What we were finding was, gel in fuel bowls, corrosion of aluminum carb bodies, fuel lines and filters softening and breaking down in four cycle, hradening and breaking in two cycle. If you are in the repair business this is not how to keep customers. We tried everything that we knew to find what we were missing, doing wrong, or what is causing our problems. We had heard about people suggesting ethanol causing the problem and decided to change the fuel we used in the shop to non ethanol fuel and had a sticker made up to educate our customers which is put on every piece of equipment that leaves the shop. Since doing so we have cut our comebacks by over 90% and have also seen our business increase as more new customers are returning with different equipment which other dealers have not been able to repair. Most of them now use the non ethanol fuel in all of their small engine equipment and have told us that they are please with the way they running and now only see us for routine service.
Also, one of the small engine trade magazines just had an article by a VP at Briggs, who talked about the problems which engine manufacturers are having with the different fuels out there and what they are doing to find a solution.
Is this the proof you want, probably not, but for the average guy who reads this, it is a way which we have helped our customers and it only costs about $10.00 a year. (That's figuring 40 cents more per gallon for the customer who uses 25 gallons a year in their small engine equipment). To me that's cheap insurance.
For those that question whether we really have experience in our shop, there are four mechanics who have over 125 years in the service industry, with the lowest guy with only about 20. Certificates on our wall include those for working on 8 small engine manufacturers, 6 equipment manufactures ranging for saws to 140 HP tractors, so we are not a bunch of dumbos.
Is there a problem with ethanol in the small engine industry? It all depends on what you believe. I say yes and right now the solution for us is paying 40 cents more per gallon of gas.
Please. Remember to read my signature.
Well cheer up if you think your having problems now, wait until the E15 gets here. There already using it in cars in the midwest and they have been making FFVs since the 1980s and there dozens of models currently available, there running E85 and there are 10 Gas stations currently in the state of Florida that sell E 85 for FFvs so it's here.
From personal experience I've been running the ethanol gas in all my Stihl equipment, Honda, Briggs, Kohler and Kawasaki engines for the last six or seven years and I've never had an ethanol related issue.
#16
exotion
exotion
Also rivets I would like a link to that article you were talking about please I am interested in reading it
#17
Carscw
What make a lawn specialists uneducated?
When we talk about cutting grass we don't call you the uneducated service techs.
125 years in the service industry would make you very old. Just because there are 6 guys there with 20 years experience each does not mean you have 120 years experience.
I believe what you just said but you can not put the whole blame on ethanol. Many of us have been running e10 for years and have never had any problems from it. Just a guess but I would say around 70% of problems blamed on ethanol is more from lack of maintenance and not reading the manual.
This is one of them topics that will never have a ending just like what oil to use and how to sharping blades.
Ps if I insulted you in any way I did not mean to or try to.
(( cowboy up and get over it ))
Carscw
Boy I'm glad that the lawn care specialists are such experts on the problems with todays fuels. You probably won't accept my proof, but it might help the average uneducated lawn specialists. About 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs. Problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment. What we were finding was, gel in fuel bowls, corrosion of aluminum carb bodies, fuel lines and filters softening and breaking down in four cycle, hradening and breaking in two cycle. If you are in the repair business this is not how to keep customers. We tried everything that we knew to find what we were missing, doing wrong, or what is causing our problems. We had heard about people suggesting ethanol causing the problem and decided to change the fuel we used in the shop to non ethanol fuel and had a sticker made up to educate our customers which is put on every piece of equipment that leaves the shop. Since doing so we have cut our comebacks by over 90% and have also seen our business increase as more new customers are returning with different equipment which other dealers have not been able to repair. Most of them now use the non ethanol fuel in all of their small engine equipment and have told us that they are please with the way they running and now only see us for routine service.
Also, one of the small engine trade magazines just had an article by a VP at Briggs, who talked about the problems which engine manufacturers are having with the different fuels out there and what they are doing to find a solution.
Is this the proof you want, probably not, but for the average guy who reads this, it is a way which we have helped our customers and it only costs about $10.00 a year. (That's figuring 40 cents more per gallon for the customer who uses 25 gallons a year in their small engine equipment). To me that's cheap insurance.
For those that question whether we really have experience in our shop, there are four mechanics who have over 125 years in the service industry, with the lowest guy with only about 20. Certificates on our wall include those for working on 8 small engine manufacturers, 6 equipment manufactures ranging for saws to 140 HP tractors, so we are not a bunch of dumbos.
Is there a problem with ethanol in the small engine industry? It all depends on what you believe. I say yes and right now the solution for us is paying 40 cents more per gallon of gas.
Please. Remember to read my signature.
What make a lawn specialists uneducated?
When we talk about cutting grass we don't call you the uneducated service techs.
125 years in the service industry would make you very old. Just because there are 6 guys there with 20 years experience each does not mean you have 120 years experience.
I believe what you just said but you can not put the whole blame on ethanol. Many of us have been running e10 for years and have never had any problems from it. Just a guess but I would say around 70% of problems blamed on ethanol is more from lack of maintenance and not reading the manual.
This is one of them topics that will never have a ending just like what oil to use and how to sharping blades.
Ps if I insulted you in any way I did not mean to or try to.
(( cowboy up and get over it ))
#18
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
First, I never talk about cutting lawns, edging, raking, etc. as you imply I do. I stick to what I know, engines and equipment. I stay away from those discussions and leave that to those in that business. Second, if you read my post, I said 4 mechanics, between the owner and me we have over 80 years. Those mechanics who have been around will tell you the the engine manufacturers have been talking about fuel and ethanol problems at update schools for the last 15 years.
Lawn care guys probably have not had the problem, because they go through more fuel in a week than the average guy does in a year. The fuel is not sitting around, but being used, just like in your vehicles. There are hundreds of people who come to this forum looking for answers, and you know that when I see info posted that could hurt them or their equipment, I am going to call out the poster. Insulted, no. Call me what you want, it will stick like water to a oily floor, which you'll slip on in the future if you don't clean it up. I stand by what I post and have hundreds of customers who have thanked us for preaching "non ethanol fuel".
To read about what I related to, just google "Briggs VP talks ethanol" and you will find plenty of articles. Even Consumer Reports say "ethanol can destroy small engines"
Lawn care guys probably have not had the problem, because they go through more fuel in a week than the average guy does in a year. The fuel is not sitting around, but being used, just like in your vehicles. There are hundreds of people who come to this forum looking for answers, and you know that when I see info posted that could hurt them or their equipment, I am going to call out the poster. Insulted, no. Call me what you want, it will stick like water to a oily floor, which you'll slip on in the future if you don't clean it up. I stand by what I post and have hundreds of customers who have thanked us for preaching "non ethanol fuel".
To read about what I related to, just google "Briggs VP talks ethanol" and you will find plenty of articles. Even Consumer Reports say "ethanol can destroy small engines"
#19
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
Ethanol does not cause small engine problems. There I said it. Ethanol is actually a solvent, which in other words is a cleaner. The problem with ethanol is its love for water. Ethanol can absorb up to 1% water before it separates out of the gas. which also lowers the octane of the fuel about 2 octane. The water contains desolved minerals that interact with the water and the ethanol and form a mild acid, similar to vinegar. The vinegar slime, water mix causes corrosion to aluminum and steel parts of engines, and with todays fine tuned, microscopic passage carbs, it takes very little corrosion to cause blockages of those passages.
The people that run large amounts of fuel through there equipment will not see problems with there engines. There is enough fuel exchanged to prevent phase separation, and the cleaning properties of the ethanol actually help remove any deposits that have accumulated. The problem is more pronounced in equipment that sets for periods of time, and I am not even sure that draining the fuel, which will leave a small amount of fuel in the carb, doesn't accelerate the problem in some cases, because of the added oxygen in the fuel due to the ethanol.
Twenty years ago techs such as myself were dealing with adjustable carbs, very little ethanol fuel available. but would see water in carbs, and fuel tanks, which if was allowed to set for a period of time would cause rust of metal parts. what we are seeing now is carbs are white internally, with aluminum oxide corrosion, and they look like the have been setting in an acid bath. The main thing that has changed with fuel over the period of time is the additional availablity of ethanol enriched fuel.
The fuel lines that are being used on most equipment are not designed for continuious exposure to solvents. Try putting a piece of fuel line in carb cleaner for a period of time and see what happens. it will either soften, swell if rubber, or harden and shrink if made from a plastic material.
The people that run large amounts of fuel through there equipment will not see problems with there engines. There is enough fuel exchanged to prevent phase separation, and the cleaning properties of the ethanol actually help remove any deposits that have accumulated. The problem is more pronounced in equipment that sets for periods of time, and I am not even sure that draining the fuel, which will leave a small amount of fuel in the carb, doesn't accelerate the problem in some cases, because of the added oxygen in the fuel due to the ethanol.
Twenty years ago techs such as myself were dealing with adjustable carbs, very little ethanol fuel available. but would see water in carbs, and fuel tanks, which if was allowed to set for a period of time would cause rust of metal parts. what we are seeing now is carbs are white internally, with aluminum oxide corrosion, and they look like the have been setting in an acid bath. The main thing that has changed with fuel over the period of time is the additional availablity of ethanol enriched fuel.
The fuel lines that are being used on most equipment are not designed for continuious exposure to solvents. Try putting a piece of fuel line in carb cleaner for a period of time and see what happens. it will either soften, swell if rubber, or harden and shrink if made from a plastic material.
#20
djdicetn
Between the experience in this and user ILENGINE's post, I am VERY comfortable with my position in this "debate" which is IMHO a personal choice with no right or wrong. As I see it the statement(s) that make the most sense is if you are in the lawn maintenance business and seldom have ethanol gasoline sit in a machine very long by all means use it. If you are a homeowner, like myself, you can take your chances with ethanol e10 gasoline or as aptly put burn non-ethanol as "an insurance policy". Actually, Rivet's first post is (1)posted on the Internet; (2)shows evidence of the adverse effects(necessary repairs and/or evidence of damages) before(using ethanol) and after(using non-ethanol) and (3)is what I would consider a reputable source of information. To me.....even without my less-than accurate test suggestion, that's proof enough based upon the OP's requirements.
djdicetn
First, I never talk about cutting lawns, edging, raking, etc. as you imply I do. I stick to what I know, engines and equipment. I stay away from those discussions and leave that to those in that business. Second, if you read my post, I said 4 mechanics, between the owner and me we have over 80 years. Those mechanics who have been around will tell you the the engine manufacturers have been talking about fuel and ethanol problems at update schools for the last 15 years.
Lawn care guys probably have not had the problem, because they go through more fuel in a week than the average guy does in a year. The fuel is not sitting around, but being used, just like in your vehicles. There are hundreds of people who come to this forum looking for answers, and you know that when I see info posted that could hurt them or their equipment, I am going to call out the poster. Insulted, no. Call me what you want, it will stick like water to a oily floor, which you'll slip on in the future if you don't clean it up. I stand by what I post and have hundreds of customers who have thanked us for preaching "non ethanol fuel".
To read about what I related to, just google "Briggs VP talks ethanol" and you will find plenty of articles. Even Consumer Reports say "ethanol can destroy small engines"
Between the experience in this and user ILENGINE's post, I am VERY comfortable with my position in this "debate" which is IMHO a personal choice with no right or wrong. As I see it the statement(s) that make the most sense is if you are in the lawn maintenance business and seldom have ethanol gasoline sit in a machine very long by all means use it. If you are a homeowner, like myself, you can take your chances with ethanol e10 gasoline or as aptly put burn non-ethanol as "an insurance policy". Actually, Rivet's first post is (1)posted on the Internet; (2)shows evidence of the adverse effects(necessary repairs and/or evidence of damages) before(using ethanol) and after(using non-ethanol) and (3)is what I would consider a reputable source of information. To me.....even without my less-than accurate test suggestion, that's proof enough based upon the OP's requirements.
#21
Carscw
Thank you sir.
I think now we can put this to rest as you have gave us the facts we have asked for.
You post was easy to read and understand.
Thank you for taking your time and putting this in away we can all understand.
(( cowboy up and get over it ))
Carscw
Ethanol does not cause small engine problems. There I said it. Ethanol is actually a solvent, which in other words is a cleaner. The problem with ethanol is its love for water. Ethanol can absorb up to 1% water before it separates out of the gas. which also lowers the octane of the fuel about 2 octane. The water contains desolved minerals that interact with the water and the ethanol and form a mild acid, similar to vinegar. The vinegar slime, water mix causes corrosion to aluminum and steel parts of engines, and with todays fine tuned, microscopic passage carbs, it takes very little corrosion to cause blockages of those passages.
The people that run large amounts of fuel through there equipment will not see problems with there engines. There is enough fuel exchanged to prevent phase separation, and the cleaning properties of the ethanol actually help remove any deposits that have accumulated. The problem is more pronounced in equipment that sets for periods of time, and I am not even sure that draining the fuel, which will leave a small amount of fuel in the carb, doesn't accelerate the problem in some cases, because of the added oxygen in the fuel due to the ethanol.
Twenty years ago techs such as myself were dealing with adjustable carbs, very little ethanol fuel available. but would see water in carbs, and fuel tanks, which if was allowed to set for a period of time would cause rust of metal parts. what we are seeing now is carbs are white internally, with aluminum oxide corrosion, and they look like the have been setting in an acid bath. The main thing that has changed with fuel over the period of time is the additional availablity of ethanol enriched fuel.
The fuel lines that are being used on most equipment are not designed for continuious exposure to solvents. Try putting a piece of fuel line in carb cleaner for a period of time and see what happens. it will either soften, swell if rubber, or harden and shrink if made from a plastic material.
Thank you sir.
I think now we can put this to rest as you have gave us the facts we have asked for.
You post was easy to read and understand.
Thank you for taking your time and putting this in away we can all understand.
(( cowboy up and get over it ))
#22
djdicetn
May not be the same article mentioned by Rivets, but here's an interesing read about the ethanol treatment Briggs developed(and why):
Briggs & Stratton develops ethanol additive
djdicetn
Also rivets I would like a link to that article you were talking about please I am interested in reading it
May not be the same article mentioned by Rivets, but here's an interesing read about the ethanol treatment Briggs developed(and why):
Briggs & Stratton develops ethanol additive
#23
exotion
This is a good post and definately calls for what I am asking for thank you.
exotion
Ethanol does not cause small engine problems. There I said it. Ethanol is actually a solvent, which in other words is a cleaner. The problem with ethanol is its love for water. Ethanol can absorb up to 1% water before it separates out of the gas. which also lowers the octane of the fuel about 2 octane. The water contains desolved minerals that interact with the water and the ethanol and form a mild acid, similar to vinegar. The vinegar slime, water mix causes corrosion to aluminum and steel parts of engines, and with todays fine tuned, microscopic passage carbs, it takes very little corrosion to cause blockages of those passages.
The people that run large amounts of fuel through there equipment will not see problems with there engines. There is enough fuel exchanged to prevent phase separation, and the cleaning properties of the ethanol actually help remove any deposits that have accumulated. The problem is more pronounced in equipment that sets for periods of time, and I am not even sure that draining the fuel, which will leave a small amount of fuel in the carb, doesn't accelerate the problem in some cases, because of the added oxygen in the fuel due to the ethanol.
Twenty years ago techs such as myself were dealing with adjustable carbs, very little ethanol fuel available. but would see water in carbs, and fuel tanks, which if was allowed to set for a period of time would cause rust of metal parts. what we are seeing now is carbs are white internally, with aluminum oxide corrosion, and they look like the have been setting in an acid bath. The main thing that has changed with fuel over the period of time is the additional availablity of ethanol enriched fuel.
The fuel lines that are being used on most equipment are not designed for continuious exposure to solvents. Try putting a piece of fuel line in carb cleaner for a period of time and see what happens. it will either soften, swell if rubber, or harden and shrink if made from a plastic material.
This is a good post and definately calls for what I am asking for thank you.
#24
Ric
Good article, I love the part Is Briggs exaggerating? I think like she says it's a house keeping issue :thumbsup:
Ric
May not be the same article mentioned by Rivets, but here's an interesting read about the ethanol treatment Briggs developed(and why):
Briggs & Stratton develops ethanol additive
Good article, I love the part Is Briggs exaggerating? I think like she says it's a house keeping issue :thumbsup:
#25
djdicetn
Yeah.....but "she" is vice president of technical services for the Renewable Fuels Association(and may be a little "biased towards ethanol" ya think:0). "She" also goes on to say...."failing to use a fuel stabilizer when outdoor power equipment is put in storage for months" is one of the causes of problems....just why would you need that???? You don't need it for non-ethanol.
No homeowner can feasibly protect any stored ethanol fuel from obtaining moisture over time, no matter how good their "housekeeping" is.
djdicetn
Good article, I love the part Is Briggs exaggerating? I think like she says it's a house keeping issue :thumbsup:
Yeah.....but "she" is vice president of technical services for the Renewable Fuels Association(and may be a little "biased towards ethanol" ya think:0). "She" also goes on to say...."failing to use a fuel stabilizer when outdoor power equipment is put in storage for months" is one of the causes of problems....just why would you need that???? You don't need it for non-ethanol.
No homeowner can feasibly protect any stored ethanol fuel from obtaining moisture over time, no matter how good their "housekeeping" is.
#26
jakewells
jakewells
No ethanol problems here i only buy 90 octane ethanol free gasoline
#27
B
Brucebotti
B
Brucebotti
I just wanted to make an observation about this post. I was amazed at how civil everyone was, especially since this is a controversial topic. That's why I value all the info I get from you guys (and gals). Keep up the great work..:thumbsup:
Bruce
Bruce
#28
djdicetn
djdicetn
Another ethanol-bashing comment......have you noticed the increase in the price of meat & dairy products since the proliferation of ethanol gasoline. Information I have gotten from Tennessee farmers that I know is that the competitive pricing for maintaining "corn-fed" stock with the biofuel producers scooping up huge corn crops have filtered down to the price they have to charge to market their products because of increased feed costs. That......2-4mpg less fuel mileage economy, "debatable" adverse affects on fuel systems.....can someone please tell what is GOOD about ethanol???? And don't tell me "environmental benefits"....my 1995 Chevy truck passed emissions testing before ethanol and actually, the only time it failed was with a post-ethanol annual MARTA test to renew the tags(good ole SeaFoam cured that failed test). Also......have you noticed how many "gas treatment products" have come to market over the last few years(since ethanol became widespread) with the intention of helping your vehicle pass the emission tests(what's up with that:0)
#29
chobbs1957
The price pressure that ethanol has put on corn is but one factor in food prices.
I see some blaming ethanol for global warming, too. Ethanol is what they are using as an alternative to MTBE as an oxygenate in the refining of gasoline. I don't pretend to understand all that that means, but they have to add something like to the gas. MTBE is equally effective, but is somehow not as "environmentally friendly" as ethanol.
chobbs1957
Another ethanol-bashing comment......have you noticed the increase in the price of meat & dairy products since the proliferation of ethanol gasoline. Information I have gotten from Tennessee farmers that I know is that the competitive pricing for maintaining "corn-fed" stock with the biofuel producers scooping up huge corn crops have filtered down to the price they have to charge to market their products because of increased feed costs.... that:0)
The price pressure that ethanol has put on corn is but one factor in food prices.
- There have been some major crop failures in grains, for example, here last year and abroad sporadically the last few years.
- Increases in the standard of living and growing populations in countries like India and China have increased demand for higher protein foods, specifically meat products.
- Freight costs have gone up over the last 6-8 years as fuel prices have jumped.
I see some blaming ethanol for global warming, too. Ethanol is what they are using as an alternative to MTBE as an oxygenate in the refining of gasoline. I don't pretend to understand all that that means, but they have to add something like to the gas. MTBE is equally effective, but is somehow not as "environmentally friendly" as ethanol.
#30
G
ghper
I live 4 miles from on of those "awful" ethanol plants. I know that more than 50 semi loads of distillers grains come out of that plant daily and go right to the feedlots within 100 miles of the plant. Highly concentrated feed that replaces corn. Ethanol can not be blamed
for everything. My great aunt developed a limp due to ethanol, she tried to kick a gas can that had 10% in it!!!!! I have used nothing but ethanol in my JD 180 with a Kawasaki engine in it that's 30 years old, never drain the tank over winter, and have never had the engine worked on. Same thing with my 2 cycle 25 year old string trimmer. I even had the courage to run it through my rebuilt 72 Nova, NO PROBLEM!!!!
G
ghper
Another ethanol-bashing comment......have you noticed the increase in the price of meat & dairy products since the proliferation of ethanol gasoline. Information I have gotten from Tennessee farmers that I know is that the competitive pricing for maintaining "corn-fed" stock with the biofuel producers scooping up huge corn crops have filtered down to the price they have to charge to market their products because of increased feed costs. That......2-4mpg less fuel mileage economy, "debatable" adverse affects on fuel systems.....can someone please tell what is GOOD about ethanol???? And don't tell me "environmental benefits"....my 1995 Chevy truck passed emissions testing before ethanol and actually, the only time it failed was with a post-ethanol annual MARTA test to renew the tags(good ole SeaFoam cured that failed test). Also......have you noticed how many "gas treatment products" have come to market over the last few years(since ethanol became widespread) with the intention of helping your vehicle pass the emission tests(what's up with that:0)
I live 4 miles from on of those "awful" ethanol plants. I know that more than 50 semi loads of distillers grains come out of that plant daily and go right to the feedlots within 100 miles of the plant. Highly concentrated feed that replaces corn. Ethanol can not be blamed
for everything. My great aunt developed a limp due to ethanol, she tried to kick a gas can that had 10% in it!!!!! I have used nothing but ethanol in my JD 180 with a Kawasaki engine in it that's 30 years old, never drain the tank over winter, and have never had the engine worked on. Same thing with my 2 cycle 25 year old string trimmer. I even had the courage to run it through my rebuilt 72 Nova, NO PROBLEM!!!!
#31
G
GregGA
I haven't had any ethanol problems either. However I found an E0 90 octane station close to me. Since some of my OPE specifies 89 octane, I am switching to E0. It's something like 25 cents a gallon more, so no big deal. Nothing to lose.
G
GregGA
No ethanol problems here i only buy 90 octane ethanol free gasoline
I haven't had any ethanol problems either. However I found an E0 90 octane station close to me. Since some of my OPE specifies 89 octane, I am switching to E0. It's something like 25 cents a gallon more, so no big deal. Nothing to lose.
#32
P
possum
P
possum
Humidity can play a large part in ethanol problems. My dealer like to show off the ruined carbs. I looked a string trimmer yesterday at a neighbors. The fuel he drained from the tank was about two thirds fuel mix and one third water. It had been filled from an almost empty five gallon fuel container that still looked brand new but had fuel in it from the year before. The amazing thing was the trimmer started and ran for a minute or so. The carb is white pitted metal with rust scattered through it. Some portions of the metal is just gone.
#33
Ric
Question what and why does Humidity have to do with ethanol problems.
Ric
Humidity can play a large part in ethanol problems. My dealer like to show off the ruined carbs. I looked a string trimmer yesterday at a neighbors. The fuel he drained from the tank was about two thirds fuel mix and one third water. It had been filled from an almost empty five gallon fuel container that still looked brand new but had fuel in it from the year before. The amazing thing was the trimmer started and ran for a minute or so. The carb is white pitted metal with rust scattered through it. Some portions of the metal is just gone.
Question what and why does Humidity have to do with ethanol problems.
#34
exotion
I agree I don't see the connection.
So far what I have seen here is ethanol has the potential to be a problem if the person using ethanol gas is unaware of how to use it. You cannot leave it sitting to long without use. That being said you cannot leave oil to long either so why would you leave gas? comes down to maintenance.
If you cannot maintain or pay to have your machine maintained you should own said machine you need to hire out.
exotion
Question what and why does Humidity have to do with ethanol problems.
I agree I don't see the connection.
So far what I have seen here is ethanol has the potential to be a problem if the person using ethanol gas is unaware of how to use it. You cannot leave it sitting to long without use. That being said you cannot leave oil to long either so why would you leave gas? comes down to maintenance.
If you cannot maintain or pay to have your machine maintained you should own said machine you need to hire out.
#35
chobbs1957
:confused2: My head is spinning with some of these pretty wise comments, comments from posters with lots of obvious common sense and lots of experience.
Anyhoos, as for the relationship between humidity and ethanol, my logic:
Ethanol "attracts" moisture THEREFORE high humidity = high probability of condensation (like fog and dew) THEREFORE condensation + oxygen = high probability of problems like rust
chobbs1957
Question what and why does Humidity have to do with ethanol problems.
:confused2: My head is spinning with some of these pretty wise comments, comments from posters with lots of obvious common sense and lots of experience.
Anyhoos, as for the relationship between humidity and ethanol, my logic:
Ethanol "attracts" moisture THEREFORE high humidity = high probability of condensation (like fog and dew) THEREFORE condensation + oxygen = high probability of problems like rust
#36
Ric
Well if your logic holds true than me of all people should have more problems than anyone. Considering where I live is seldom below about 96% to 100% humidity at night and most times during the day is in the 75 to 80% range. IT's 7:00am now, Brandon 100% humidity, Orlando =91%, Sarasota =96%, Brooksville 100%, Winter Haven =93% just to name a few. So due to the fact that I've been running all types of Lawn equipment for years without any issue with ethanol what conclusion should I draw?
Ric
:confused2: My head is spinning with some of these pretty wise comments, comments from posters with lots of obvious common sense and lots of experience.
Anyhoos, as for the relationship between humidity and ethanol, my logic:
Ethanol "attracts" moisture THEREFORE high humidity = high probability of condensation (like fog and dew) THEREFORE condensation + oxygen = high probability of problems like rust
Well if your logic holds true than me of all people should have more problems than anyone. Considering where I live is seldom below about 96% to 100% humidity at night and most times during the day is in the 75 to 80% range. IT's 7:00am now, Brandon 100% humidity, Orlando =91%, Sarasota =96%, Brooksville 100%, Winter Haven =93% just to name a few. So due to the fact that I've been running all types of Lawn equipment for years without any issue with ethanol what conclusion should I draw?
#37
ILENGINE
I think there may be some sense to this, but I think it may be more related to temperature variations. Large swings in temperature variation, due to expansion and contraction may play a part due to air exchange in unsealed containers.
Years ago there was a problem with water condensing in fuel containers, and I always asked how the water got in there. And was always told condensation. And I always asked how the condensation got inside of a seal container. And they could never answer that questions.
ILENGINE
:confused2: My head is spinning with some of these pretty wise comments, comments from posters with lots of obvious common sense and lots of experience.
Anyhoos, as for the relationship between humidity and ethanol, my logic:
Ethanol "attracts" moisture THEREFORE high humidity = high probability of condensation (like fog and dew) THEREFORE condensation + oxygen = high probability of problems like rust
I think there may be some sense to this, but I think it may be more related to temperature variations. Large swings in temperature variation, due to expansion and contraction may play a part due to air exchange in unsealed containers.
Years ago there was a problem with water condensing in fuel containers, and I always asked how the water got in there. And was always told condensation. And I always asked how the condensation got inside of a seal container. And they could never answer that questions.
#38
Ric
ILENGINE Your right, temperature variations, due to expansion and contraction cause condensation. We've had problems with water in gas long before Ethanol or Bio-fuels were ever thought of so to blame Ethanol for the problem I think is a little strange to say the least.
Ric
I think there may be some sense to this, but I think it may be more related to temperature variations. Large swings in temperature variation, due to expansion and contraction may play a part due to air exchange in unsealed containers.
Years ago there was a problem with water condensing in fuel containers, and I always asked how the water got in there. And was always told condensation. And I always asked how the condensation got inside of a seal container. And they could never answer that questions.
ILENGINE Your right, temperature variations, due to expansion and contraction cause condensation. We've had problems with water in gas long before Ethanol or Bio-fuels were ever thought of so to blame Ethanol for the problem I think is a little strange to say the least.
#39
djdicetn
Question(s).......when, not if, the EPA forces E15 ethanol sales on the masses will you burn that readily available fuel in your existing equipment without hesitation........OR.......will you seek out E10 that you have been using without problems "if" it is still avaialble???? If you answer that you will seek out E10, what's the difference in that and those of us now seeking out ethanol-free???
djdicetn
ILENGINE Your right, temperature variations, due to expansion and contraction cause condensation. We've had problems with water in gas long before Ethanol or Bio-fuels were ever thought of so to blame Ethanol for the problem I think is a little strange to say the least.
Question(s).......when, not if, the EPA forces E15 ethanol sales on the masses will you burn that readily available fuel in your existing equipment without hesitation........OR.......will you seek out E10 that you have been using without problems "if" it is still avaialble???? If you answer that you will seek out E10, what's the difference in that and those of us now seeking out ethanol-free???
#40
Ric
If the EPA has there way and if they decide on E15 instead of just jumping to the E85, What I'll use will be decided by the equipment I'm using. When and if E15 hits the market I would guess that they would already have the equipment for it's use already for sale so I would be replacing what I have with new if the old couldn't be converted. As far as me seeking out the E10.... No...I wouldn't look for it or go out of my way to find it anymore than I have for ethanol free gas, In my opinion seeking out Ethanol free gas to run when I have equipment that is very capable of running E10 is ridiculous and a waste of time and money and not away to show a larger profit for the business, say nothing about trying to explain it to an auditor why I'm doing that when I get deductions on gas use.
The thing I think that bothers me is the E85 that's already available and being sold at stations for FFV's. As I said there are 10 stations in Florida now that have and sell E85 and almost 3000 stations throughout the country. Ford, GM and Dodge have had FFV's on the market since the early 1980's that would run and use E85 and are using it now, so tell me why the EPA should even consider using E15, people may be in for a rude awakening.
Ric
Question(s).......when, not if, the EPA forces E15 ethanol sales on the masses will you burn that readily available fuel in your existing equipment without hesitation........OR.......will you seek out E10 that you have been using without problems "if" it is still avaialble???? If you answer that you will seek out E10, what's the difference in that and those of us now seeking out ethanol-free???
If the EPA has there way and if they decide on E15 instead of just jumping to the E85, What I'll use will be decided by the equipment I'm using. When and if E15 hits the market I would guess that they would already have the equipment for it's use already for sale so I would be replacing what I have with new if the old couldn't be converted. As far as me seeking out the E10.... No...I wouldn't look for it or go out of my way to find it anymore than I have for ethanol free gas, In my opinion seeking out Ethanol free gas to run when I have equipment that is very capable of running E10 is ridiculous and a waste of time and money and not away to show a larger profit for the business, say nothing about trying to explain it to an auditor why I'm doing that when I get deductions on gas use.
The thing I think that bothers me is the E85 that's already available and being sold at stations for FFV's. As I said there are 10 stations in Florida now that have and sell E85 and almost 3000 stations throughout the country. Ford, GM and Dodge have had FFV's on the market since the early 1980's that would run and use E85 and are using it now, so tell me why the EPA should even consider using E15, people may be in for a rude awakening.
#41
djdicetn
I am thoroughly convinced that it makes absolutely no sense for someone(like you) that mows commercially to use non-ethanol gas for the many logical reasons you have given(and the fact that you go through gas so quickly the chances of having fuel system problems is slim or none). I still contend that for homeowners that mow weekly at best there is still a strong argument towards burning the non-ethanol. You may be right about E85 becoming the norm before E15 is even considered. And most likely E10 would continue to be marketed for "pre-FFV" equipment. If they completely do away with non-ethanol(also a very good possibility) I guess I'll use E10 with Stabil and once-a-season SeaFoam treatment:0(
P.S.
of course, they will probably "gouge the consumer price-wise" for E10 after E85 dominates just like they are doing now with non-ethanol:0(
djdicetn
If the EPA has there way and if they decide on E15 instead of just jumping to the E85, What I'll use will be decided by the equipment I'm using. When and if E15 hits the market I would guess that they would already have the equipment for it's use already for sale so I would be replacing what I have with new if the old couldn't be converted. As far as me seeking out the E10.... No...I wouldn't look for it or go out of my way to find it anymore than I have for ethanol free gas, In my opinion seeking out Ethanol free gas to run when I have equipment that is very capable of running E10 is ridiculous and a waste of time and money and not away to show a larger profit for the business, say nothing about trying to explain it to an auditor why I'm doing that when I get deductions on gas use.
The thing I think that bothers me is the E85 that's already available and being sold at stations for FFV's. As I said there are 10 stations in Florida now that have and sell E85 and almost 3000 stations throughout the country. Ford, GM and Dodge have had FFV's on the market since the early 1980's that would run and use E85 and are using it now, so tell me why the EPA should even consider using E15, people may be in for a rude awakening.
I am thoroughly convinced that it makes absolutely no sense for someone(like you) that mows commercially to use non-ethanol gas for the many logical reasons you have given(and the fact that you go through gas so quickly the chances of having fuel system problems is slim or none). I still contend that for homeowners that mow weekly at best there is still a strong argument towards burning the non-ethanol. You may be right about E85 becoming the norm before E15 is even considered. And most likely E10 would continue to be marketed for "pre-FFV" equipment. If they completely do away with non-ethanol(also a very good possibility) I guess I'll use E10 with Stabil and once-a-season SeaFoam treatment:0(
P.S.
of course, they will probably "gouge the consumer price-wise" for E10 after E85 dominates just like they are doing now with non-ethanol:0(
#42
jekjr
jekjr
All I low is the techs at both local dealers who sell Stihl tell us that Stihl warns against using it. One tech told me that not to even use a can that had previously had 10% in it. I run 93 octane non ethanol in every thing I have that is gas but my Kubota 222. It has over 200 hours on it and has had no problems so far. The reason I do not run the non ethanol in it is the availability. The places we normally fuel that have off road diesel which I run in my 326 don't have non ethanol. We use a covered trailer and have to unload to fuel. The book says no more than 10% and we fill it often so I go with the flow.
I did run my hand held equipment on it when we started up last summer. I had some carb problems on my cub cadet trimmer early this spring. We used it basically all winter too because it was a split pole and we used th pole saw and other attachments on it basically all winter.
I did run my hand held equipment on it when we started up last summer. I had some carb problems on my cub cadet trimmer early this spring. We used it basically all winter too because it was a split pole and we used th pole saw and other attachments on it basically all winter.
#43
M
marvinlee
M
marvinlee
The best single source of information that I know of is the Coordinating Research Council, Inc. (CRC) of 3650 Mansell Road, Suite 140, Alpharetta, GA 30022. Their best known report is CRC Project CM-136-09-1B, titled,all in capital letters, INTERMEDIATE-LEVEL ETHANOL BLENDS ENGINE DURABILITY STUDY, April 2012. This 97 page report, of which I have two copies, tests ethanol blends in several different engines. Some operated with few problems, others suffered premature engine wear reflected, for some, in valve leakage and high pressure testing leakdown rates. I refer you to the full report for more details.
The report was followed by criticism from both the US Energy Department and various ethanol-advocate groups. Their criticism focused on 1) the fact that one of the several engines tested failed, also, on ordinary gasoline and 2) that the engines were subjected to unusual testing stringency that is not normal to ordinary real-life engine use. The criticism was followed by a strong rebuttal from the CRC.
My best interpretation is that ethanol performs adequately in most engines, most of the time, but that certain operating conditions that are not yet well defined can result in engine problems for some engines. That is pretty vague, and probably has to be considering the hundreds of millions of engines of all ages and accumulated hours in operation and the vast variations in how they are used, stored, fueled, and maintained.
I don't attach much broad importance to personal experience. For what little it is worth, I've used Oregon's 10% ethanol blend in, among others, a 40-year old garden tractor with a cast-iron Briggs and Stratton 32-cubic inch engine which is normally operated at full throttle and RPM; seven different chainsaws of varied age and engine time, an old Cadillac with the cast-iron V8 engine designed back in the 1950's, a late model Subaru with the naturally aspirated six cylinder engine, a four-cycle Honda and a four-cycle Dolmar water pump, both of which operate at full RPM when used. They are stored most of the time without draining fuel beforehand. In past years, we have used ethanol fuel in a Suzuki six cylinder car with Alusil cylinders, where the cylinders are the base aluminum alloy etched to reveal silicon crystals which provide the wearing surface. In all these engines, and several that I've forgotten, we had no observable problems with Oregon's ethanol fuel. A friend who does considerable chainsawing refuses to use any ethanol fuel in his chainsaws and pays a high price for specialty ethanol-free, high octane fuel, which is legal for some uses in Oregon. I hope that all of the above helps shed some light on the real complexity of the ethanol fuel issue.
The report was followed by criticism from both the US Energy Department and various ethanol-advocate groups. Their criticism focused on 1) the fact that one of the several engines tested failed, also, on ordinary gasoline and 2) that the engines were subjected to unusual testing stringency that is not normal to ordinary real-life engine use. The criticism was followed by a strong rebuttal from the CRC.
My best interpretation is that ethanol performs adequately in most engines, most of the time, but that certain operating conditions that are not yet well defined can result in engine problems for some engines. That is pretty vague, and probably has to be considering the hundreds of millions of engines of all ages and accumulated hours in operation and the vast variations in how they are used, stored, fueled, and maintained.
I don't attach much broad importance to personal experience. For what little it is worth, I've used Oregon's 10% ethanol blend in, among others, a 40-year old garden tractor with a cast-iron Briggs and Stratton 32-cubic inch engine which is normally operated at full throttle and RPM; seven different chainsaws of varied age and engine time, an old Cadillac with the cast-iron V8 engine designed back in the 1950's, a late model Subaru with the naturally aspirated six cylinder engine, a four-cycle Honda and a four-cycle Dolmar water pump, both of which operate at full RPM when used. They are stored most of the time without draining fuel beforehand. In past years, we have used ethanol fuel in a Suzuki six cylinder car with Alusil cylinders, where the cylinders are the base aluminum alloy etched to reveal silicon crystals which provide the wearing surface. In all these engines, and several that I've forgotten, we had no observable problems with Oregon's ethanol fuel. A friend who does considerable chainsawing refuses to use any ethanol fuel in his chainsaws and pays a high price for specialty ethanol-free, high octane fuel, which is legal for some uses in Oregon. I hope that all of the above helps shed some light on the real complexity of the ethanol fuel issue.
So I am not the only one getting annoyed at every problem getting blamed on ethanol. I want proof. Actual with sources proof posted here. If you can find some hard evidence and facts let me know.
#44
P
phcaan
Here in Missouri all the fuel is mandated by law to contain 10% ethanol. I have not had a problem with it but toward the middle of the summer when my grass slows down I start adding 1oz per gallon of Seafoam to all the fuel that I use in my mower and small equipment. Seafoam helps with the fuel separation problem. And at the end of the summer on my last mowings I add an additional amount of Marvel Mystery oil to the cans when I fill them. I have never drained my equipment and have never in the last 20 years had fuel related problems.
I retired from an oil company and while I was with them many customers insisted that the manufactures recommended no ethanol be used in their equipment. I personally called every manufacturer that I was told did not recommend ethanol and every one of them including Stihl told me that 10% ethanol was standard motor fuel in the United States and would not harm their equipment. Every one of them however cautioned that the fuel should be kept fresh and the oil fuel mix should be shaken before added to the equipment.
I personally would prefer to use non ethanol fuel but it is not available in my area.
P
phcaan
All I low is the techs at both local dealers who sell Stihl tell us that Stihl warns against using it. One tech told me that not to even use a can that had previously had 10% in it. I run 93 octane non ethanol in every thing I have that is gas but my Kubota 222. It has over 200 hours on it and has had no problems so far. The reason I do not run the non ethanol in it is the availability. The places we normally fuel that have off road diesel which I run in my 326 don't have non ethanol. We use a covered trailer and have to unload to fuel. The book says no more than 10% and we fill it often so I go with the flow.
I did run my hand held equipment on it when we started up last summer. I had some carb problems on my cub cadet trimmer early this spring. We used it basically all winter too because it was a split pole and we used th pole saw and other attachments on it basically all winter.
Here in Missouri all the fuel is mandated by law to contain 10% ethanol. I have not had a problem with it but toward the middle of the summer when my grass slows down I start adding 1oz per gallon of Seafoam to all the fuel that I use in my mower and small equipment. Seafoam helps with the fuel separation problem. And at the end of the summer on my last mowings I add an additional amount of Marvel Mystery oil to the cans when I fill them. I have never drained my equipment and have never in the last 20 years had fuel related problems.
I retired from an oil company and while I was with them many customers insisted that the manufactures recommended no ethanol be used in their equipment. I personally called every manufacturer that I was told did not recommend ethanol and every one of them including Stihl told me that 10% ethanol was standard motor fuel in the United States and would not harm their equipment. Every one of them however cautioned that the fuel should be kept fresh and the oil fuel mix should be shaken before added to the equipment.
I personally would prefer to use non ethanol fuel but it is not available in my area.
#45
jekjr
jekjr
One other note on this subject. If you believe something no evidence is necessary. If you do not believe something no evidence is sufficient.
#46
djdicetn
Your first statement is NOT a fact!!! See the link below for non-ethanol stations in Missouri.
Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
djdicetn
Here in Missouri all the fuel is mandated by law to contain 10% ethanol. I have not had a problem with it but toward the middle of the summer when my grass slows down I start adding 1oz per gallon of Seafoam to all the fuel that I use in my mower and small equipment. Seafoam helps with the fuel separation problem. And at the end of the summer on my last mowings I add an additional amount of Marvel Mystery oil to the cans when I fill them. I have never drained my equipment and have never in the last 20 years had fuel related problems.
I retired from an oil company and while I was with them many customers insisted that the manufactures recommended no ethanol be used in their equipment. I personally called every manufacturer that I was told did not recommend ethanol and every one of them including Stihl told me that 10% ethanol was standard motor fuel in the United States and would not harm their equipment. Every one of them however cautioned that the fuel should be kept fresh and the oil fuel mix should be shaken before added to the equipment.
I personally would prefer to use non ethanol fuel but it is not available in my area.
Your first statement is NOT a fact!!! See the link below for non-ethanol stations in Missouri.
Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
#47
B
bouncer959
B
bouncer959
If you have any Trimmer fuel Line lying around, let it sin in a container of gasoline with ethanol for several months and see what happens to it. Manufactures are trying make better fuel system products to deal with the problem used in newer equipment.
Older units utilizing common standard Rubber lines and gaskets are especially vulnerable to damage from sitting up for a while when using E10. It also causes "O" rings to swell.
Older units utilizing common standard Rubber lines and gaskets are especially vulnerable to damage from sitting up for a while when using E10. It also causes "O" rings to swell.
#48
P
possum
P
possum
Missouri has a mandated law unless the pure gas is cheaper or is premium. Out of 166 gas stations you should be able to find one with non ethanol. Most of the handheld brands are offering canned fuel. Before long they all will and they will all want you to use it. Extended warranties will likely be the motivation. Husqvarna already extends the warranty if you buy their fuel. I would imagine more money will be made off the fuel than the units themselves.
#49
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Anyone living in Missouri can find non-ethanol fuel on this website.
Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
#50
S
s10sleeper
S
s10sleeper
The only proof that I can say is from college, experience and GM training. On newer gas engines they are designed to handle ethanol. Ethanol has a tendency to dry out most gaskets and rubber used on older equipment. Many newer engines use neoprene o rings which can handle it. Newer overhaul kits are available for most engines and carbs unless the carbs are only available to purchase new, such as when Kawasaki bought out one of Keihins carburetors for the John Deere old silver bullets.
#51
P
phcaan
I am glad to see this list, however it is the law here, and as someone pointed out this is the case unless straight gas is less expensive than the stuff with ethanol, some stations may have one grade that is ethanol free. The Sinclair station in Cabool also known as the El Rancho truck stop has one grade that is ethanol free.
Here in Willow Springs the Caseys station has dropped their unleaded plus for the time being do to the fact that they did not meet the mandate. I am told when they work it out they will again offer both unleaded and unleaded plus, both containing ethanol.
I stopped today on my way to Springfield and talked to the folks at the Sinclair and they told me that one of their grades was ethanol free but the girl did not know which one, I'll stop in later and talk to the manage about it. It is only 10 miles away so I can easily go over there to get fuel for my stuff.
P
phcaan
Your first statement is NOT a fact!!! See the link below for non-ethanol stations in Missouri.
Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
I am glad to see this list, however it is the law here, and as someone pointed out this is the case unless straight gas is less expensive than the stuff with ethanol, some stations may have one grade that is ethanol free. The Sinclair station in Cabool also known as the El Rancho truck stop has one grade that is ethanol free.
Here in Willow Springs the Caseys station has dropped their unleaded plus for the time being do to the fact that they did not meet the mandate. I am told when they work it out they will again offer both unleaded and unleaded plus, both containing ethanol.
I stopped today on my way to Springfield and talked to the folks at the Sinclair and they told me that one of their grades was ethanol free but the girl did not know which one, I'll stop in later and talk to the manage about it. It is only 10 miles away so I can easily go over there to get fuel for my stuff.
#52
M
mullins87
M
mullins87
No real proof here, just observation. I've been mowing for nearly 40 years and driving for nearly 30 years. E10 did not become predominant in our area until about 7-8 years ago. When that switch was made, I almost immediately noticed a 1-1.5 mpg drop in all four of my on-road vehicles. The oldest one being a '95, however I had no issues with the E10, other than the mileage. The other issues I noticed were in my two-stroke equipment. Within two years of the switch I had to start replacing the fuel lines, and about every two years since then. My four-stroke equipment has not had an issues either. My procedure for storing my equipment is as follows.....fill the tank mixed with the proper amount of Stabil, run the equipment long enough for the Stabil to become noticable in the exhaust(I can smell it, others can't), then shut off the fuel and let the carb run dry, and finally remove the battery if it has one. On the small two-stroke equipment, I drain the fuel, refill a small amount with fuel mixed with Stabil and let it run until it's out of gas. Other than having to replace the fuel lines on the two-strokes about every two years, I have no issues. Everything always starts right up in the spring and runs like a champ. I've done this for more than 20 years now.
Two questions: First, if ethanol is not to blame, or at least part of the cause, then why did I never have to replace a fuel line on any two-stroke equipment before E10? And secondly, why am I only having to replace the fuel lines on my two-stroke equipment, but not on any four-stroke equipment? I have more four-stroke equipment than what is listed in my signature, such as a 30+ year old Troy Bilt tiller.
BTW: This has been a good discussion. :thumbsup:
Two questions: First, if ethanol is not to blame, or at least part of the cause, then why did I never have to replace a fuel line on any two-stroke equipment before E10? And secondly, why am I only having to replace the fuel lines on my two-stroke equipment, but not on any four-stroke equipment? I have more four-stroke equipment than what is listed in my signature, such as a 30+ year old Troy Bilt tiller.
BTW: This has been a good discussion. :thumbsup:
#53
S
s10sleeper
I see your point, with all of my equipment, I run fuel injection fuel line, and that has extended the life of them. In college we did learn that you can see a small drop in mileage, which there always seems to be a compromise like that with alternative fuels, similar to a loss in HP when using LP in a vehicle in exchange for cheaper operation.
S
s10sleeper
No real proof here, just observation. I've been mowing for nearly 40 years and driving for nearly 30 years. E10 did not become predominant in our area until about 7-8 years ago. When that switch was made, I almost immediately noticed a 1-1.5 mpg drop in all four of my on-road vehicles. The oldest one being a '95, however I had no issues with the E10, other than the mileage. The other issues I noticed were in my two-stroke equipment. Within two years of the switch I had to start replacing the fuel lines, and about every two years since then. My four-stroke equipment has not had an issues either. My procedure for storing my equipment is as follows.....fill the tank mixed with the proper amount of Stabil, run the equipment long enough for the Stabil to become noticable in the exhaust(I can smell it, others can't), then shut off the fuel and let the carb run dry, and finally remove the battery if it has one. On the small two-stroke equipment, I drain the fuel, refill a small amount with fuel mixed with Stabil and let it run until it's out of gas. Other than having to replace the fuel lines on the two-strokes about every two years, I have no issues. Everything always starts right up in the spring and runs like a champ. I've done this for more than 20 years now.
Two questions: First, if ethanol is not to blame, or at least part of the cause, then why did I never have to replace a fuel line on any two-stroke equipment before E10? And secondly, why am I only having to replace the fuel lines on my two-stroke equipment, but not on any four-stroke equipment? I have more four-stroke equipment than what is listed in my signature, such as a 30+ year old Troy Bilt tiller.
BTW: This has been a good discussion. :thumbsup:
I see your point, with all of my equipment, I run fuel injection fuel line, and that has extended the life of them. In college we did learn that you can see a small drop in mileage, which there always seems to be a compromise like that with alternative fuels, similar to a loss in HP when using LP in a vehicle in exchange for cheaper operation.
#54
Ric
Ric
The question I have is that with all these so called problems that's being blamed on ethanol, why is it that it seems to be just the last four or five years and not for all the years it has been available and has been being used. Rivets posted about 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs, problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment and if ethanol is the blame why didn't we see it previous years?
#55
djdicetn
By no means did I intend to "offend" or imply you "lied". Many times, due to lack of advertising or information, folks don't know non-ethanol is available in their area. I got a comment discussing this with my father-in-law yesterday when I mentioned that Alaska, lucky dogs......with all those pipelines, ONLY have non-ethanol gas. The comment was....maybe ethanol gas has a lower temperature that it freezes. That kinda makes sense, but I don't know that it is a fact(and if it is indeed a fact, areas of the U.S. that see extremely low temps in the winter could also see some problems with that).....any comments from some of you "Northerners"???????
djdicetn
I am glad to see this list, however it is the law here, and as someone pointed out this is the case unless straight gas is less expensive than the stuff with ethanol, some stations may have one grade that is ethanol free. The Sinclair station in Cabool also known as the El Rancho truck stop has one grade that is ethanol free.
Here in Willow Springs the Caseys station has dropped their unleaded plus for the time being do to the fact that they did not meet the mandate. I am told when they work it out they will again offer both unleaded and unleaded plus, both containing ethanol.
I stopped today on my way to Springfield and talked to the folks at the Sinclair and they told me that one of their grades was ethanol free but the girl did not know which one, I'll stop in later and talk to the manage about it. It is only 10 miles away so I can easily go over there to get fuel for my stuff.
By no means did I intend to "offend" or imply you "lied". Many times, due to lack of advertising or information, folks don't know non-ethanol is available in their area. I got a comment discussing this with my father-in-law yesterday when I mentioned that Alaska, lucky dogs......with all those pipelines, ONLY have non-ethanol gas. The comment was....maybe ethanol gas has a lower temperature that it freezes. That kinda makes sense, but I don't know that it is a fact(and if it is indeed a fact, areas of the U.S. that see extremely low temps in the winter could also see some problems with that).....any comments from some of you "Northerners"???????
#56
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Frozen gas, now I've seen it all!! Ethanol is an alcohol, alcohol attracts moisture, moisture attracts corrosion and corrosion in carbs puts money in my pocket. My memory isn't what it used to be, but about 6years ago, about the time of the horsepower lawsuit, the engine manufacturers started leaning out their carbs to meet the California emission rules. This resulted in even smaller jets and passageways in the carbs. Couple this with the corrosive problems of the ethanol fuels and the problem shows itself.
#57
djdicetn
Hey, I'm just the messenger, please don't "re-load":0)
Maybe not frozen "gas"...OR....frozen "ethanol/alcohol"......as that's not an inherent property of either. But what about "frozen attracted moisture" causing problems??? Or...maybe YOU have a theory as to WHY Alaska has no ethanol????????? They are a "State" of the U.S. just like the rest of us....so what makes them so "special"?????
djdicetn
Frozen gas, now I've seen it all!! Ethanol is an alcohol, alcohol attracts moisture, moisture attracts corrosion and corrosion in carbs puts money in my pocket. My memory isn't what it used to be, but about 6years ago, about the time of the horsepower lawsuit, the engine manufacturers started leaning out their carbs to meet the California emission rules. This resulted in even smaller jets and passageways in the carbs. Couple this with the corrosive problems of the ethanol fuels and the problem shows itself.
Hey, I'm just the messenger, please don't "re-load":0)
Maybe not frozen "gas"...OR....frozen "ethanol/alcohol"......as that's not an inherent property of either. But what about "frozen attracted moisture" causing problems??? Or...maybe YOU have a theory as to WHY Alaska has no ethanol????????? They are a "State" of the U.S. just like the rest of us....so what makes them so "special"?????
#58
P
phcaan
Well as cold as it is they probably drink it before they can put it in the fuel, then they don't care how cold it is.
When I lived in Wyoming we had to be sure to add "Heat" to out fuel well in advance of winter to make sure there was no moisture in the fuel system or come winter we were walking.
P
phcaan
Hey, I'm just the messenger, please don't "re-load":0)
Maybe not frozen "gas"...OR....frozen "ethanol/alcohol"......as that's not an inherent property of either. But what about "frozen attracted moisture" causing problems??? Or...maybe YOU have a theory as to WHY Alaska has no ethanol????????? They are a "State" of the U.S. just like the rest of us....so what makes them so "special"?????
Well as cold as it is they probably drink it before they can put it in the fuel, then they don't care how cold it is.
When I lived in Wyoming we had to be sure to add "Heat" to out fuel well in advance of winter to make sure there was no moisture in the fuel system or come winter we were walking.
#59
M
mullins87
Well, I can't comment on the rest of the country, so I can only comment on here, where I have lived my entire life. While E10 may have been the norm for many, many years, it has been the norm around here for only a few, short years. In my situation, the only problems I have noticed are the failing fuel lines in my two-stroke equipment and a drop in mileage in my on-road vehicles. Both problems surfaced at about the same time, which just happen to correspond with the arrival of E10 in my area. What else has changed? Maybe the fuel lines are built out of cheaper material from China. All by itself, I can accept that possibility. But I know for a fact that nothing changed with my vehicles.
M
mullins87
The question I have is that with all these so called problems that's being blamed on ethanol, why is it that it seems to be just the last four or five years and not for all the years it has been available and has been being used. Rivets posted about 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs, problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment and if ethanol is the blame why didn't we see it previous years?
Well, I can't comment on the rest of the country, so I can only comment on here, where I have lived my entire life. While E10 may have been the norm for many, many years, it has been the norm around here for only a few, short years. In my situation, the only problems I have noticed are the failing fuel lines in my two-stroke equipment and a drop in mileage in my on-road vehicles. Both problems surfaced at about the same time, which just happen to correspond with the arrival of E10 in my area. What else has changed? Maybe the fuel lines are built out of cheaper material from China. All by itself, I can accept that possibility. But I know for a fact that nothing changed with my vehicles.
#60
L
lchiefan
L
lchiefan
I have a '52 ford 8n. I put e10 in it accidently and it cleaned the gas tank out so well that it clogged up the carb. so bad it required an overhaul. Also, ethanol cannot be transported in a pipe line because it will rust out the lines. it must be hauled by truck. if you require proof, why do the auto manufactures make a e10 rated vehicle now?
#61
D
drew45
D
drew45
I've had this discussion with several others who've told me they actually found bits of corn shuck in the bottom of their tank when cleaning it out. While I have seen, for myself, damage to rubber parts relative to fuel systems I have a hard time grasping the corn shuck story. My brother runs an oil jobber that supplies about 35 gas stations in west Georgia and I've done some riding with his trouble shooter. Way too many filters in place to let anything visible through much less a corn shuck. But as stated above ethanol is an organic mixture that DOES absorb moisture. This has caused a very expensive headache to those who have to deal with it. Down here there are sensors in place that measure the moisture content in underground tanks ( and above) that will shut them down automatically. This moisture is what causes the problem when it is allowed to sit. The longer it sits the more it sucks up causing rust to form. I also had a 1989 Chevy van that ran like a dream for 8 years until 2005. I had it for 8 years. It acted like it was running out of gas. Two VERY good mechanics couldn't
find the problem. I pulled the tank again to check the fuel pump, again. I found the hose going from the filter sock to the pump had tiny holes that could only be seen when it is bent. My mechanic looked and said " Ethanol". Thanks to our wonderful GOV and EPA we will soon have E20. They will not "force" you into an electric car, you'll buy one cause your dino burner doesn't run. With coal power plants being shut down the juice to charge these cars will go through the roof. Solar is a great idea until the batteries blow your house up or start piling up in landfills. Some say wind mills kill birds, I say it weeds out the dumb ones. Someone in 2007 publicly stated "Under my version of a cap and trade plan electricity prices will necessarily skyrocket". Any guesses?
find the problem. I pulled the tank again to check the fuel pump, again. I found the hose going from the filter sock to the pump had tiny holes that could only be seen when it is bent. My mechanic looked and said " Ethanol". Thanks to our wonderful GOV and EPA we will soon have E20. They will not "force" you into an electric car, you'll buy one cause your dino burner doesn't run. With coal power plants being shut down the juice to charge these cars will go through the roof. Solar is a great idea until the batteries blow your house up or start piling up in landfills. Some say wind mills kill birds, I say it weeds out the dumb ones. Someone in 2007 publicly stated "Under my version of a cap and trade plan electricity prices will necessarily skyrocket". Any guesses?
#62
M
mullins87
I have a 2010 Taurus. That new of a car should be built to handle ethanol mixed fuel. Well, it specifically states in the owners manual to NOT use E20. Yes, thank you EPA!!!! I can't wait to see what headaches you will cause me!!
M
mullins87
..... Thanks to our wonderful GOV and EPA we will soon have E20. They will not "force" you into an electric car, you'll buy one cause your dino burner doesn't run. With coal power plants being shut down the juice to charge these cars will go through the roof. Solar is a great idea until the batteries blow your house up or start piling up in landfills. Some say wind mills kill birds, I say it weeds out the dumb ones. Someone in 2007 publicly stated "Under my version of a cap and trade plan electricity prices will necessarily skyrocket". Any guesses?
I have a 2010 Taurus. That new of a car should be built to handle ethanol mixed fuel. Well, it specifically states in the owners manual to NOT use E20. Yes, thank you EPA!!!! I can't wait to see what headaches you will cause me!!
#63
B
braxx
B
braxx
I have a Champion 4k watt generator that I bought around 2007 or so. It gets ran on average, one time a year for about 30min and the fuel gets topped up with regular fuel. It stays in storage from Oct. 15 through May 1st. On May 1st (give or take a week) is when I start it and top it up so that I know I can use it for my camper if the power goes out during the summer. I've only had to use it for 2 days a couple of years ago and that is all.
It starts every time.
It starts every time.
#64
B
Brucebotti
B
Brucebotti
Hey Exotion.....see what you started....:laughing:
Actually its been an interesting, and for the most part, civil experience.
Bruce
Actually its been an interesting, and for the most part, civil experience.
Bruce
#65
Carscw
Carscw
I still say ethanol is being blamed for the use of cheap parts that will fail no matter what gas you use. You say you have seen what it does to fuel lines so what did you use to test the fuel line to know that ethanol did it? Oh that's right you did no tests or study's on it. Why is it that people that use non ethanol gas still have to replace fuel lines?
(( cowboy up and get over it ))
(( cowboy up and get over it ))
#66
exotion
It definately has been interesting good info
exotion
Hey Exotion.....see what you started....:laughing:
Actually its been an interesting, and for the most part, civil experience.
Bruce
It definately has been interesting good info
#67
djdicetn
I don't know about E20, but according to the RFS Act(Renewable Fuel Standard), E15 will be hitting the market before we know it(and my Gravely & Kawasaki specifically state that anything higher than E10 will "void my warranty":0(
Don't know if this would be condidered "proof" of the disadvantages of E15, but below is a link that warns of the potential problems associated with it:
Fill Up On Facts
P.S.
It also has a link to "Tell Washington to repeal the RFS", if that is the inclination of your stand on Ethanol being "forced" upon us by our government(I cringe every time I think about that statement...."we are here from the government and we want to help":0(
djdicetn
I have a 2010 Taurus. That new of a car should be built to handle ethanol mixed fuel. Well, it specifically states in the owners manual to NOT use E20. Yes, thank you EPA!!!! I can't wait to see what headaches you will cause me!!
I don't know about E20, but according to the RFS Act(Renewable Fuel Standard), E15 will be hitting the market before we know it(and my Gravely & Kawasaki specifically state that anything higher than E10 will "void my warranty":0(
Don't know if this would be condidered "proof" of the disadvantages of E15, but below is a link that warns of the potential problems associated with it:
Fill Up On Facts
P.S.
It also has a link to "Tell Washington to repeal the RFS", if that is the inclination of your stand on Ethanol being "forced" upon us by our government(I cringe every time I think about that statement...."we are here from the government and we want to help":0(
#68
Ric
I hate to say this but that link isn't proof of anything, It's posted by the people of the Oil and natural gas Industry. It's what the oil industry wants you to believe. They post the propaganda because the more Bio-fuel that is used the less profit they make. It's natural that they will say and post anything to get people stirred up over its use.
Ric
I don't know about E20, but according to the RFS Act(Renewable Fuel Standard), E15 will be hitting the market before we know it(and my Gravely & Kawasaki specifically state that anything higher than E10 will "void my warranty":0(
Don't know if this would be condidered "proof" of the disadvantages of E15, but below is a link that warns of the potential problems associated with it:
Fill Up On Facts
P.S.
It also has a link to "Tell Washington to repeal the RFS", if that is the inclination of your stand on Ethanol being "forced" upon us by our government(I cringe every time I think about that satement...."we are here from the government and we want to help":0(
I hate to say this but that link isn't proof of anything, It's posted by the people of the Oil and natural gas Industry. It's what the oil industry wants you to believe. They post the propaganda because the more Bio-fuel that is used the less profit they make. It's natural that they will say and post anything to get people stirred up over its use.
#69
djdicetn
Granted, a lot of the research links on that API-sponsored website are by research entities like CRC(also, supported by the petroleum and automotive equipment industries):
http://www.crcao.com/reports/recent... Durability/CRC CM-136-09-1B Final Report.pdf
http://www.crcao.com/reports/recent...15a]/AVFL 15a [CRC 664] Final Report only.pdf
......but what about AAA(I don't think they are):
New E15 Gasoline May Damage Vehicles and Cause Consumer Confusion | AAA NewsRoom
Then there is the economic impact study prepared for the API by a private consulting company:
http://www.api.org/policy-and-issue...micImpactsResultingfromRFS2Implementation.pdf
I just don't see how none of this could be considered "proof" that E15 is going to be bad all things considered and/or E10 couldn't be much better.
djdicetn
I hate to say this but that link isn't proof of anything, It's posted by the people of the Oil and natural gas Industry. It's what the oil industry wants you to believe. They post the propaganda because the more Bio-fuel that is used the less profit they make. It's natural that they will say and post anything to get people stirred up over its use.
Granted, a lot of the research links on that API-sponsored website are by research entities like CRC(also, supported by the petroleum and automotive equipment industries):
http://www.crcao.com/reports/recent... Durability/CRC CM-136-09-1B Final Report.pdf
http://www.crcao.com/reports/recent...15a]/AVFL 15a [CRC 664] Final Report only.pdf
......but what about AAA(I don't think they are):
New E15 Gasoline May Damage Vehicles and Cause Consumer Confusion | AAA NewsRoom
Then there is the economic impact study prepared for the API by a private consulting company:
http://www.api.org/policy-and-issue...micImpactsResultingfromRFS2Implementation.pdf
I just don't see how none of this could be considered "proof" that E15 is going to be bad all things considered and/or E10 couldn't be much better.
#70
exotion
exotion
E15 will be interesting but basically there is nothing anyone can do about it so.... Adapt, overcome, and improvise that's all we can do besides wait and see.
Basically so far I see a couple recurring things here. People do not run their equipment enough and don't know how to maintain. And cheap parts that will fail anyway but failure being sped up by improper maintenance.
Not excatly what I was asking for. So far I have gotten opinions and links to other opinions yet to see actual proof. Any one care to do experiment and post pics and progress here. Find some old carbs that run take them off soak them in e10 for a certain amount of time and test the carbs after a week Again after a month and monthly after that maybe this will prove it?
Basically so far I see a couple recurring things here. People do not run their equipment enough and don't know how to maintain. And cheap parts that will fail anyway but failure being sped up by improper maintenance.
Not excatly what I was asking for. So far I have gotten opinions and links to other opinions yet to see actual proof. Any one care to do experiment and post pics and progress here. Find some old carbs that run take them off soak them in e10 for a certain amount of time and test the carbs after a week Again after a month and monthly after that maybe this will prove it?
#73
Ric
I think it's like Carscw said in the beginning, All your going to hear is opinions. As far as people not running equipment enough, I'm not sure I totally agree with that because you can have the same result with regular gas if the equipment sets. Now I do agree with the cheap parts and improper maintenance part possibly being an issue.
Ric
E15 will be interesting but basically there is nothing anyone can do about it so.... Adapt, overcome, and improvise that's all we can do besides wait and see.
Basically so far I see a couple recurring things here. People do not run their equipment enough and don't know how to maintain. And cheap parts that will fail anyway but failure being sped up by improper maintenance.
Not excatly what I was asking for. So far I have gotten opinions and links to other opinions yet to see actual proof. Any one care to do experiment and post pics and progress here. Find some old carbs that run take them off soak them in e10 for a certain amount of time and test the carbs after a week Again after a month and monthly after that maybe this will prove it?
I think it's like Carscw said in the beginning, All your going to hear is opinions. As far as people not running equipment enough, I'm not sure I totally agree with that because you can have the same result with regular gas if the equipment sets. Now I do agree with the cheap parts and improper maintenance part possibly being an issue.
#74
R
rustyblade
R
rustyblade
One thing to remember when storing e-gas in any vessel is to fill it completely full. That will also reduce the moisture accumulation.
#75
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Hilllawnmower, I don't feel that the pics you posted are proof of a fuel problem. I see two different problems and causes. First, I see a definite dirt ingestion problem. Second, I see a lot of carbon build-up. To me the cause is poor maintenance and improper fuel/oil ratio or carb adjustment.
#76
ILENGINE
Definitely foreign material ingestion. I suspect what came in the intake side of the cylinder got lodged between the cylinder and piston, which in turn galled, and reduced the clearance on the exhaust side which lead to further damage. I have seen a lot of saws with sawdust in the intake, which when entering the cylinder will get burned, causing carbon which could lead to further damage. there are a lot of saws where the air cleaner just doesn't seal real well.
ILENGINE
Hilllawnmower, I don't feel that the pics you posted are proof of a fuel problem. I see two different problems and causes. First, I see a definite dirt ingestion problem. Second, I see a lot of carbon build-up. To me the cause is poor maintenance and improper fuel/oil ratio or carb adjustment.
Definitely foreign material ingestion. I suspect what came in the intake side of the cylinder got lodged between the cylinder and piston, which in turn galled, and reduced the clearance on the exhaust side which lead to further damage. I have seen a lot of saws with sawdust in the intake, which when entering the cylinder will get burned, causing carbon which could lead to further damage. there are a lot of saws where the air cleaner just doesn't seal real well.
#77
djdicetn
djdicetn
Just some food for thought...the whole idea of "proof" being needed is debatable within itself. Think about it...we are told there are black holes in space....do we believe that, and do we really have/need proof?? Other things "most intelligent people" believe, without concrete proof are too numerous to list...DNA; man has really been on the moon; molecules & atoms make up everything we see; God exists...and the list goes on!!! What is really the bottom line in this discussion is that if YOU believe ethanol blended gas is bad for your equipment you don't really need proof....you simply believe that and we all could debate any of the examples I just gave til the cows come home and nobody would "win" and we would most likely not be swayed from our original belief on ethanol or any other "difficult to PROVE" subject. My real protest to the ethanol debate is that no one can offer me PROOF that it is better for the environment(and more importantly better for the consumer). Yet the EPA and our politicians know what's best for us and MY belief is that this world , as we know it, will eventually come to an end regardless of man's stupidity and intent to destroy it by cutting down rain forests, polluting the environment by inventing things(like gasoline and equipment to be powered by it having emissions) simply because the intelligence to invent things with substances at our disposal exists. After all, if "fossil fuel" is indeed not "renewable" that means we believe that should a catastrophic world-wide event happen....hey, "our remains" may be the next intelligient beings to live here's "fossil fuel":0)
#78
S
snapsstorer
S
snapsstorer
i am trying to find the article i seen where they were talking about the ethanol/gasoline mixture. they said something about how the ethonal was supposed to make the gasoline price go down, but in the the past 2 years all they seen was the gas prices rise. i used the 10%in my jimmy for 2 months and the average temp on the engine was reading close to 190 degrees, and was getting approx 16.5 mpg(combined). then i ran the 10% close to empty, so i could start the test with straight gasoline(no ethanol).in 2 months, my engine temp was close to 180 degrees, and i was getting 22mpg(combined). i also started the test with a new air filter, and new plugs. the plugs when i used the e/gas sure were cleaner but the gap was maybe 1 thousandth different. the plugs from the straight gas were somewhat dirty, but the gap was the same as i put them in at. which to me showed that the e/gas was maybe 3-4 cents cheaper, but i had to fill up more often. using the mid-grade(89) at 3-4 cents more, my engine ran cooler and i got better gas mileage. so there are the good sides and the bad sides of the ethanol. and i live where the farmers grow the corn used in the making of ethanol, and they say they will not use it some of their more expensive cars.:confused3:
#79
P
panabiker
Maybe it's time for someone to provide the "proof" that ethanol added gasoline does not cause engine problems
P
panabiker
Just some food for thought...the whole idea of "proof" being needed is debatable within itself...
Maybe it's time for someone to provide the "proof" that ethanol added gasoline does not cause engine problems
#80
djdicetn
Well...aside from the effect on "machinery" the reply I received from my legislator about renewable fuels in general and their economic impact is pretty well in line with my feelings about the EPA forcing expensive renewable fuel alternatives down our throats. Below is her "politician's" opinion:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Dice,
Thank you for contacting me regarding H.R. 1461, the Renewable Fuel Standard Elimination Act. I appreciate the opportunity to hear your thoughts on this important issue and share your conviction that with gas prices well over $3 a gallon across the country, the United States must rid our energy strategy of unnecessary mandates and burdensome regulations that drive up costs.
As you may know, the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) was created in the Energy Policy Act of 2005, which became law before I came to Congress. Since its enactment, the RFS has been consistently expanded and will mandate that our nation's fuel supply be inundated with 36 billion gallons of less efficient and more costly renewable fuels by 2022.
I support efforts to make our nation more energy independent and efficient, but it should not come at the cost of economic growth and freedom. The Renewable Fuel Standard Elimination Act would eliminate the RFS and allow the ethanol industry to compete in a free-market environment. This legislation was introduced by Congressman Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) on April 10, 2013 and was referred to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, of which I am not a member.
In the past, I have requested that the EPA make needed changes to the RFS. For example, last year I sent EPA administrator Lisa Jackson a letter asking that she adjust the RFS mandate down to align with current market conditions. You can read a copy of my letter here.
Should H.R. 1461 come before the full House of Representatives for a vote, you can count on my support. Additionally, I look forward to continuing to work with my colleagues to develop a long-term energy strategy that lowers prices, creates jobs, reduces our dependence on foreign oil, and addresses the $16.8 trillion national debt. The more energy we produce in America, the stronger we will be as a nation.
Sincerely,
Diane Black
Member of Congress
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Needless to say....she'll get my vote if she runs for re-eletion:0)
djdicetn
Maybe it's time for someone to provide the "proof" that ethanol added gasoline does not cause engine problems
Well...aside from the effect on "machinery" the reply I received from my legislator about renewable fuels in general and their economic impact is pretty well in line with my feelings about the EPA forcing expensive renewable fuel alternatives down our throats. Below is her "politician's" opinion:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Dice,
Thank you for contacting me regarding H.R. 1461, the Renewable Fuel Standard Elimination Act. I appreciate the opportunity to hear your thoughts on this important issue and share your conviction that with gas prices well over $3 a gallon across the country, the United States must rid our energy strategy of unnecessary mandates and burdensome regulations that drive up costs.
As you may know, the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) was created in the Energy Policy Act of 2005, which became law before I came to Congress. Since its enactment, the RFS has been consistently expanded and will mandate that our nation's fuel supply be inundated with 36 billion gallons of less efficient and more costly renewable fuels by 2022.
I support efforts to make our nation more energy independent and efficient, but it should not come at the cost of economic growth and freedom. The Renewable Fuel Standard Elimination Act would eliminate the RFS and allow the ethanol industry to compete in a free-market environment. This legislation was introduced by Congressman Bob Goodlatte (R-VA) on April 10, 2013 and was referred to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, of which I am not a member.
In the past, I have requested that the EPA make needed changes to the RFS. For example, last year I sent EPA administrator Lisa Jackson a letter asking that she adjust the RFS mandate down to align with current market conditions. You can read a copy of my letter here.
Should H.R. 1461 come before the full House of Representatives for a vote, you can count on my support. Additionally, I look forward to continuing to work with my colleagues to develop a long-term energy strategy that lowers prices, creates jobs, reduces our dependence on foreign oil, and addresses the $16.8 trillion national debt. The more energy we produce in America, the stronger we will be as a nation.
Sincerely,
Diane Black
Member of Congress
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Needless to say....she'll get my vote if she runs for re-eletion:0)
#81
Ric
WellI don't know if I'm right about E85 becoming the norm or not but if you visit the car dealerships you'll find a lot of cars and trucks that are E85 ready. I went to the dealership here today and purchased a new Ford F-150 and all the 150's with the V8 engines are all FFV vehicles / E85 ready. What I found that's weird is they have no gas caps anymore. I was amazed to find out that everything they sell just about will be E85 ready in the very near future. I really think the e85 is a lot closer than we think.
Ric
I am thoroughly convinced that it makes absolutely no sense for someone(like you) that mows commercially to use non-ethanol gas for the many logical reasons you have given(and the fact that you go through gas so quickly the chances of having fuel system problems is slim or none). I still contend that for homeowners that mow weekly at best there is still a strong argument towards burning the non-ethanol. You may be right about E85 becoming the norm before E15 is even considered. And most likely E10 would continue to be marketed for "pre-FFV" equipment. If they completely do away with non-ethanol(also a very good possibility) I guess I'll use E10 with Stabil and once-a-season SeaFoam treatment:0(
P.S.
of course, they will probably "gouge the consumer price-wise" for E10 after E85 dominates just like they are doing now with non-ethanol:0(
WellI don't know if I'm right about E85 becoming the norm or not but if you visit the car dealerships you'll find a lot of cars and trucks that are E85 ready. I went to the dealership here today and purchased a new Ford F-150 and all the 150's with the V8 engines are all FFV vehicles / E85 ready. What I found that's weird is they have no gas caps anymore. I was amazed to find out that everything they sell just about will be E85 ready in the very near future. I really think the e85 is a lot closer than we think.
#82
GentlemanFahmah
GentlemanFahmah
Here's just a small portion of the crap that I took out of the bowl of a Vanguard Briggs & Stratton motor that wouldn't run on Saturday.
![IMG_3549[1].jpg](https://www.lawnmowerforum.com/data/attachments/16/16650-99d483099d89f65d7aa131ec12876547.jpg "IMG_3549[1].jpg")
This Briggs 12.5 2 cyl engine is in a chipper/shredder that wouldn't run beyond a lumpy idle for anything. Enough fuel was getting through the jet to support the idle, but the float and needle were plugged with varnish/shellac/sand like crap so badly that the bowl couldn't fill up fast enough to support any more fuel than idle, so it would briefly spin up and then die as the bowl emptied.
Complete dis-assembly and a lot of time with carb cleaner and probes. I used a small drill bit to clean the jet and scrubbed the bowl and floats with a small wire brush and 20 ounces of Gumout carb cleaner before it finally got cleaned to "normal". You can see a lot of the corrosion damage to the bottom of the inside of the bowl from the alcohol fuel that sat there with intermittent use. Check out how badly this is pitted and this photo was taken AFTER I had cleaned it. I couldn't do much for the pitting damage beyond getting the shellac like gel/sand junk out
![IMG_3551[1].jpg](https://www.lawnmowerforum.com/data/attachments/16/16664-a2e97198948a8bee228ce3dcaddfdde3.jpg "IMG_3551[1].jpg")
After an hour of scrubbing This is what I finally had to put back on the engine:
![IMG_3553[1].jpg](https://www.lawnmowerforum.com/data/attachments/16/16670-14f4da7487a2189bf21243722ceb0460.jpg "IMG_3553[1].jpg")
This was what I scraped out of the bowl:
![IMG_3555[1].jpg](https://www.lawnmowerforum.com/data/attachments/16/16681-8a79b0131e3f5d69d4a0227f7e440369.jpg "IMG_3555[1].jpg")
When you see this sand like crap that ethanol fuels create in your small engine carburetor float bowl, it's easy to understand why it won't run worth a crap with all this plugging it up!
![IMG_3556[1].jpg](https://www.lawnmowerforum.com/data/attachments/16/16692-c5e1befd96929d4db027a26d051bb905.jpg "IMG_3556[1].jpg")
This Briggs 12.5 2 cyl engine is in a chipper/shredder that wouldn't run beyond a lumpy idle for anything. Enough fuel was getting through the jet to support the idle, but the float and needle were plugged with varnish/shellac/sand like crap so badly that the bowl couldn't fill up fast enough to support any more fuel than idle, so it would briefly spin up and then die as the bowl emptied.
Complete dis-assembly and a lot of time with carb cleaner and probes. I used a small drill bit to clean the jet and scrubbed the bowl and floats with a small wire brush and 20 ounces of Gumout carb cleaner before it finally got cleaned to "normal". You can see a lot of the corrosion damage to the bottom of the inside of the bowl from the alcohol fuel that sat there with intermittent use. Check out how badly this is pitted and this photo was taken AFTER I had cleaned it. I couldn't do much for the pitting damage beyond getting the shellac like gel/sand junk out
After an hour of scrubbing This is what I finally had to put back on the engine:
This was what I scraped out of the bowl:
When you see this sand like crap that ethanol fuels create in your small engine carburetor float bowl, it's easy to understand why it won't run worth a crap with all this plugging it up!
#83
Carscw
And what test and study's did you do to know that ethanol did this?
Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas.
I still say people blame ethanol for problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of
Carscw
Here's just a small portion of the crap that I took out of the bowl of a Vanguard Briggs & Stratton motor that wouldn't run on Saturday. <img src="http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/attachments/mower-equipment-operation/21542-post-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-img_3549[1]-jpg"/> This Briggs 12.5 2 cyl engine is in a chipper/shredder that wouldn't run beyond a lumpy idle for anything. Enough fuel was getting through the jet to support the idle, but the float and needle were plugged with varnish/shellac/sand like crap so badly that the bowl couldn't fill up fast enough to support any more fuel than idle, so it would briefly spin up and then die as the bowl emptied. Complete dis-assembly and a lot of time with carb cleaner and probes. I used a small drill bit to clean the jet and scrubbed the bowl and floats with a small wire brush and 20 ounces of Gumout carb cleaner before it finally got cleaned to "normal". You can see a lot of the corrosion damage to the bottom of the inside of the bowl from the alcohol fuel that sat there with intermittent use. Check out how badly this is pitted and this photo was taken AFTER I had cleaned it. I couldn't do much for the pitting damage beyond getting the shellac like gel/sand junk out <img src="http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/attachments/mower-equipment-operation/21543-post-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-img_3551[1]-jpg"/> After an hour of scrubbing This is what I finally had to put back on the engine: <img src="http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/attachments/mower-equipment-operation/21544-post-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-img_3553[1]-jpg"/> This was what I scraped out of the bowl: <img src="http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/attachments/mower-equipment-operation/21545-post-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-img_3555[1]-jpg"/> When you see this sand like crap that ethanol fuels create in your small engine carburetor float bowl, it's easy to understand why it won't run worth a crap with all this plugging it up! <img src="http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/attachments/mower-equipment-operation/21546-post-proof-bad-ethanol-problems-img_3556[1]-jpg"/>
And what test and study's did you do to know that ethanol did this?
Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas.
I still say people blame ethanol for problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of
#84
T
timotb2
T
timotb2
All good answers for me. Many engines run fine with ethanol and some are strictly forbidden to consume it. Old engines, small engines, boat engines, aircraft engines. I have a Lycoming IO360 engine and the manufacturer specifically forbids it. Besides attracting moisture, it will gum up fuel injectors if that engine was not designed for ethanol as in the case of this Lycoming.
#85
GentlemanFahmah
For openers, this was not my engine but the engine of a neighbor who is a poster child for casual maintenance; that's where you only fix what breaks and take no preventative steps. So understand that I'm fixing someone else's problem here.
I've been turning wrenches for five of my six decades of life and have watched the effects of new blended fuels on everything from gasket material to floats and needles ruined. It is a problem in antique performance engines as the ethanol flash point is not the same as gasoline, but I'm sure you are already well aware of that. Wonder why they took Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate out of motor oils? ZDDP was a lubricant that was tremendously beneficial to flat tappet motors and diesel engines but the catalytic converters were becoming plated and ineffective when burned motor oil went through the combustion chamber so ZDDP levels are all but gone in motor oil now and there are negative results of that. That is not the discussion here, but it is an example of how reformulated blends have an adverse impact on some engines when all internal combustion engines are expected to run on the same stuff.
There are today a range of additives which have come in to attempt to offset the negative effects of the new ethanol blended fuels and those additives combine in an organic chemical cocktail that will work ok as a combustion chamber fuel source, but are a nightmare for stability. I'm sure you've read all the reports on this already so I won't bore you with the details. My experience is that these additives now have a much faster evaporation rate and when they evaporate out of the fuel, they leave behind the other additives intended to balance the alcohol and those remaining additives are not simpatico with gasoline alone. That in turn is where you see these compounds form and precipitate into small sand-like hard crystals form that are shown in my photos.
In response to your statement "Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas." I strongly disagree. While we had fuel related problems, they were nothing like what ethanol blended fuels are today. 40 years ago, well before ethanol was anything other than ethly alcohol solvent that is commonly used to prep your arm for an injection (rubbing alcohol), I would see varnish and shellac form in fuel systems that were sitting for extended periods. I'm talking no engine start for many months and even years. This was common. You could pull the gas cap and take a whiff of the fuel and it smelled sour and you instantly knew that gas was a dark brown color and the line, the carburetor bowl, needle, seat, jets, and fuel tap were all going to be plugged with varnish. When you went after that with carb cleaner, it dissolved. Fast forward to ethanol blended fuels and now the timeline for trouble is SEVERELY shortened to a few months or less, and, the resultant "varnish" is now a crystalline compound coupled with varnish like gel; a deadly plugging combination.
The tone of your challenge is understand reading in type, but it is confrontational in asking for "And what test and study's [SIC] did you do...". So I'll ask you to tell me what analytical procedures you'd like me to use and I'm happy to try to apply them. I'm a chemist and work in the chemical industry so as long as your request for evidence beyond what I've already given is acceptable, I'll try to reply.
Lastly, I do agree with a portion of your statement and only a portion: "...problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of" People could do a lot of good for themselves, and adversely impact the small and antique engine mechanical trade severely if they simply shut down the fuel supply and ran their engines dry when they are about to have them hibernate for an extended period. I do not subscribe to the concept not run fuel systems dry because the gaskets dry out; I've had engines down for years that were dry of fuel and as soon as fuel was reintroduced it roared to life without incident. Also, ethanol fuels have dissolved more hoses and gaskets on me than have failed by being dry so material compatibility issues are paramount to understanding the breadth of issues brought on by these blended fuels.
In summary, please know that ethanol is not the sole additive in fuels and while we refer to these blended fuels as ethanol, it's really a whole new combustion cocktail with oxygenators; lead scavengers; anti-knock agents; alcohols; various ether compounds (MBTE etc); dyes; and injector cleaners just to name a few. 45 years ago, we only had GM's 1920 invention of tetra-ethyl lead top end lubricant and octane booster and that was about it. So let's run that challenge flag up the pole on the basis of science if you're going to use it, and not conjecture and emotion.
Fair enough?
GentlemanFahmah
Carscw, I'm not sure where you're coming from but perhaps you can give me the test procedures that you will approve of so we don't waste time with studies that you will dismiss.And what test and study's did you do to know that ethanol did this?
Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas.
I still say people blame ethanol for problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of
For openers, this was not my engine but the engine of a neighbor who is a poster child for casual maintenance; that's where you only fix what breaks and take no preventative steps. So understand that I'm fixing someone else's problem here.
I've been turning wrenches for five of my six decades of life and have watched the effects of new blended fuels on everything from gasket material to floats and needles ruined. It is a problem in antique performance engines as the ethanol flash point is not the same as gasoline, but I'm sure you are already well aware of that. Wonder why they took Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate out of motor oils? ZDDP was a lubricant that was tremendously beneficial to flat tappet motors and diesel engines but the catalytic converters were becoming plated and ineffective when burned motor oil went through the combustion chamber so ZDDP levels are all but gone in motor oil now and there are negative results of that. That is not the discussion here, but it is an example of how reformulated blends have an adverse impact on some engines when all internal combustion engines are expected to run on the same stuff.
There are today a range of additives which have come in to attempt to offset the negative effects of the new ethanol blended fuels and those additives combine in an organic chemical cocktail that will work ok as a combustion chamber fuel source, but are a nightmare for stability. I'm sure you've read all the reports on this already so I won't bore you with the details. My experience is that these additives now have a much faster evaporation rate and when they evaporate out of the fuel, they leave behind the other additives intended to balance the alcohol and those remaining additives are not simpatico with gasoline alone. That in turn is where you see these compounds form and precipitate into small sand-like hard crystals form that are shown in my photos.
In response to your statement "Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas." I strongly disagree. While we had fuel related problems, they were nothing like what ethanol blended fuels are today. 40 years ago, well before ethanol was anything other than ethly alcohol solvent that is commonly used to prep your arm for an injection (rubbing alcohol), I would see varnish and shellac form in fuel systems that were sitting for extended periods. I'm talking no engine start for many months and even years. This was common. You could pull the gas cap and take a whiff of the fuel and it smelled sour and you instantly knew that gas was a dark brown color and the line, the carburetor bowl, needle, seat, jets, and fuel tap were all going to be plugged with varnish. When you went after that with carb cleaner, it dissolved. Fast forward to ethanol blended fuels and now the timeline for trouble is SEVERELY shortened to a few months or less, and, the resultant "varnish" is now a crystalline compound coupled with varnish like gel; a deadly plugging combination.
The tone of your challenge is understand reading in type, but it is confrontational in asking for "And what test and study's [SIC] did you do...". So I'll ask you to tell me what analytical procedures you'd like me to use and I'm happy to try to apply them. I'm a chemist and work in the chemical industry so as long as your request for evidence beyond what I've already given is acceptable, I'll try to reply.
Lastly, I do agree with a portion of your statement and only a portion: "...problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of" People could do a lot of good for themselves, and adversely impact the small and antique engine mechanical trade severely if they simply shut down the fuel supply and ran their engines dry when they are about to have them hibernate for an extended period. I do not subscribe to the concept not run fuel systems dry because the gaskets dry out; I've had engines down for years that were dry of fuel and as soon as fuel was reintroduced it roared to life without incident. Also, ethanol fuels have dissolved more hoses and gaskets on me than have failed by being dry so material compatibility issues are paramount to understanding the breadth of issues brought on by these blended fuels.
In summary, please know that ethanol is not the sole additive in fuels and while we refer to these blended fuels as ethanol, it's really a whole new combustion cocktail with oxygenators; lead scavengers; anti-knock agents; alcohols; various ether compounds (MBTE etc); dyes; and injector cleaners just to name a few. 45 years ago, we only had GM's 1920 invention of tetra-ethyl lead top end lubricant and octane booster and that was about it. So let's run that challenge flag up the pole on the basis of science if you're going to use it, and not conjecture and emotion.
Fair enough?
#86
Nwatson99
Nwatson99
GentlemanFahmah thank you for the write up and photos, the ethanol is bad gas and does not cause build up and issues in a short time frame, why anyone would run that crap is beyond me I only run 93 octane gas in everything.
I remember back in the back when you took a car engine down, if it has a diet of Valvoline oil then is was gunked up like no other.
I remember back in the back when you took a car engine down, if it has a diet of Valvoline oil then is was gunked up like no other.
#87
T
timotb2
I don't need a case study to know that ethanol attracts water, and water is bad for engines and components. Further, if the Lycoming engine company says no ethanol for their engines, I trust they have studied the issue completely and satisfactory to know it is BAD for their engines.
T
timotb2
Carscw, I'm not sure where you're coming from but perhaps you can give me the test procedures that you will approve of so we don't waste time with studies that you will dismiss.
For openers, this was not my engine but the engine of a neighbor who is a poster child for casual maintenance; that's where you only fix what breaks and take no preventative steps. So understand that I'm fixing someone else's problem here.
I've been turning wrenches for five of my six decades of life and have watched the effects of new blended fuels on everything from gasket material to floats and needles ruined. It is a problem in antique performance engines as the ethanol flash point is not the same as gasoline, but I'm sure you are already well aware of that. Wonder why they took Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate out of motor oils? ZDDP was a lubricant that was tremendously beneficial to flat tappet motors and diesel engines but the catalytic converters were becoming plated and ineffective when burned motor oil went through the combustion chamber so ZDDP levels are all but gone in motor oil now and there are negative results of that. That is not the discussion here, but it is an example of how reformulated blends have an adverse impact on some engines when all internal combustion engines are expected to run on the same stuff.
There are today a range of additives which have come in to attempt to offset the negative effects of the new ethanol blended fuels and those additives combine in an organic chemical cocktail that will work ok as a combustion chamber fuel source, but are a nightmare for stability. I'm sure you've read all the reports on this already so I won't bore you with the details. My experience is that these additives now have a much faster evaporation rate and when they evaporate out of the fuel, they leave behind the other additives intended to balance the alcohol and those remaining additives are not simpatico with gasoline alone. That in turn is where you see these compounds form and precipitate into small sand-like hard crystals form that are shown in my photos.
In response to your statement "Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas." I strongly disagree. While we had fuel related problems, they were nothing like what ethanol blended fuels are today. 40 years ago, well before ethanol was anything other than ethly alcohol solvent that is commonly used to prep your arm for an injection (rubbing alcohol), I would see varnish and shellac form in fuel systems that were sitting for extended periods. I'm talking no engine start for many months and even years. This was common. You could pull the gas cap and take a whiff of the fuel and it smelled sour and you instantly knew that gas was a dark brown color and the line, the carburetor bowl, needle, seat, jets, and fuel tap were all going to be plugged with varnish. When you went after that with carb cleaner, it dissolved. Fast forward to ethanol blended fuels and now the timeline for trouble is SEVERELY shortened to a few months or less, and, the resultant "varnish" is now a crystalline compound coupled with varnish like gel; a deadly plugging combination.
The tone of your challenge is understand reading in type, but it is confrontational in asking for "And what test and study's [SIC] did you do...". So I'll ask you to tell me what analytical procedures you'd like me to use and I'm happy to try to apply them. I'm chemist and work in the chemical industry so as long as your request for evidence beyond what I've already given is acceptable, I'll try to reply.
Lastly, I do agree with a portion of your statement and only a portion: "...problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of" People could do a lot of good for themselves, and adversely impact the small and antique engine mechanical trade severely if they simply shut down the fuel supply and ran their engines dry when they are about to have them hibernate for an extended period. I do not subscribe to the concept not run fuel systems dry because the gaskets dry out; I've had engines down for years that were dry of fuel and as soon as fuel was reintroduced it roared to life without incident. Also, ethanol fuels have dissolved more hoses and gaskets on me than have failed by being dry so material compatibility issues are paramount to understanding the breadth of issues brought on by these blended fuels.
In summary, please know that ethanol is not the sole additive in fuels and while we refer to these blended fuels as ethanol, it's really a whole new combustion cocktail with oxygenators; lead scavengers; anti-knock agents; alcohols; various ether compounds (MBTE etc); dyes; and injector cleaners just to name a few. 45 years ago, we only had GM's 1920 invention of tetra-ethyl lead top end lubricant and octane booster and that was about it. So let's run that challenge flag up the pole on the basis of science if you're going to use it, and not conjecture and emotion.
Fair enough?
I don't need a case study to know that ethanol attracts water, and water is bad for engines and components. Further, if the Lycoming engine company says no ethanol for their engines, I trust they have studied the issue completely and satisfactory to know it is BAD for their engines.
#88
P
panabiker
Ethanol is bad from both energy efficiency and total CO2 emission standpoint but it's unlikely ethanol gas will go away any time soon regardless of ethanol lobbying. Ethanol is now used as an oxygenate replacing MBTE since MBTE was found to cause ground water pollution. Until a new, inexpensive oxygenate is developed, 10% ethanol gas will probably be the norm. And by the way, most 93 octane gas also contains ethanol.
P
panabiker
GentlemanFahmah thank you for the write up and photos, the ethanol is bad gas and does not cause build up and issues in a short time frame, why anyone would run that crap is beyond me ...
Ethanol is bad from both energy efficiency and total CO2 emission standpoint but it's unlikely ethanol gas will go away any time soon regardless of ethanol lobbying. Ethanol is now used as an oxygenate replacing MBTE since MBTE was found to cause ground water pollution. Until a new, inexpensive oxygenate is developed, 10% ethanol gas will probably be the norm. And by the way, most 93 octane gas also contains ethanol.
#89
Carscw
Nice book.
Lots of good info.
So you are saying that the ethanol in he gas COULD have done this to this carb.
You say you have seen what ethanol can do. How do you know it is from the ethanol and not just poorly made parts? We all know things are not made to last anymore like back 30 years ago.
I have mowers that are 10 years old with over a 1000 hours on them and have never had to clean a carb. Could be because ethanol does not hurt then or could be because I change filter and lines.
Gas with ethanol might cause some problems but I have never seen it.
Maybe because I take care of my things.
I have mowers that have been sitting with gas in them for months. They will start and run fine.
IMO all the crap people add to the gas to fight the ethanol does more harm then good.
I run 118 octane in my chevy 632ci
If I was to let fuel sit in the carb for 2 months it would look like the carb you are working on. It has no ethanol in it.
I run e10 in all my mowers I am not going to spend a extra $20 a day for ethanol free gas.
I guess it comes down to how you maintain your things.
Thank you for your input and info. It was very good reading.
Carscw
Carscw, I'm not sure where you're coming from but perhaps you can give me the test procedures that you will approve of so we don't waste time with studies that you will dismiss. For openers, this was not my engine but the engine of a neighbor who is a poster child for casual maintenance; that's where you only fix what breaks and take no preventative steps. So understand that I'm fixing someone else's problem here. I've been turning wrenches for five of my six decades of life and have watched the effects of new blended fuels on everything from gasket material to floats and needles ruined. It is a problem in antique performance engines as the ethanol flash point is not the same as gasoline, but I'm sure you are already well aware of that. Wonder why they took Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate out of motor oils? ZDDP was a lubricant that was tremendously beneficial to flat tappet motors and diesel engines but the catalytic converters were becoming plated and ineffective when burned motor oil went through the combustion chamber so ZDDP levels are all but gone in motor oil now and there are negative results of that. That is not the discussion here, but it is an example of how reformulated blends have an adverse impact on some engines when all internal combustion engines are expected to run on the same stuff. There are today a range of additives which have come in to attempt to offset the negative effects of the new ethanol blended fuels and those additives combine in an organic chemical cocktail that will work ok as a combustion chamber fuel source, but are a nightmare for stability. I'm sure you've read all the reports on this already so I won't bore you with the details. My experience is that these additives now have a much faster evaporation rate and when they evaporate out of the fuel, they leave behind the other additives intended to balance the alcohol and those remaining additives are not simpatico with gasoline alone. That in turn is where you see these compounds form and precipitate into small sand-like hard crystals form that are shown in my photos. In response to your statement "Things like this happened years before ethanol was added to the gas." I strongly disagree. While we had fuel related problems, they were nothing like what ethanol blended fuels are today. 40 years ago, well before ethanol was anything other than ethly alcohol solvent that is commonly used to prep your arm for an injection (rubbing alcohol), I would see varnish and shellac form in fuel systems that were sitting for extended periods. I'm talking no engine start for many months and even years. This was common. You could pull the gas cap and take a whiff of the fuel and it smelled sour and you instantly knew that gas was a dark brown color and the line, the carburetor bowl, needle, seat, jets, and fuel tap were all going to be plugged with varnish. When you went after that with carb cleaner, it dissolved. Fast forward to ethanol blended fuels and now the timeline for trouble is SEVERELY shortened to a few months or less, and, the resultant "varnish" is now a crystalline compound coupled with varnish like gel; a deadly plugging combination. The tone of your challenge is understand reading in type, but it is confrontational in asking for "And what test and study's [SIC] did you do...". So I'll ask you to tell me what analytical procedures you'd like me to use and I'm happy to try to apply them. I'm chemist and work in the chemical industry so as long as your request for evidence beyond what I've already given is acceptable, I'll try to reply. Lastly, I do agree with a portion of your statement and only a portion: "...problems caused by their poor upkeep and lack of" People could do a lot of good for themselves, and adversely impact the small and antique engine mechanical trade severely if they simply shut down the fuel supply and ran their engines dry when they are about to have them hibernate for an extended period. I do not subscribe to the concept not run fuel systems dry because the gaskets dry out; I've had engines down for years that were dry of fuel and as soon as fuel was reintroduced it roared to life without incident. Also, ethanol fuels have dissolved more hoses and gaskets on me than have failed by being dry so material compatibility issues are paramount to understanding the breadth of issues brought on by these blended fuels. In summary, please know that ethanol is not the sole additive in fuels and while we refer to these blended fuels as ethanol, it's really a whole new combustion cocktail with oxygenators; lead scavengers; anti-knock agents; alcohols; various ether compounds (MBTE etc); dyes; and injector cleaners just to name a few. 45 years ago, we only had GM's 1920 invention of tetra-ethyl lead top end lubricant and octane booster and that was about it. So let's run that challenge flag up the pole on the basis of science if you're going to use it, and not conjecture and emotion. Fair enough?
Nice book.
Lots of good info.
So you are saying that the ethanol in he gas COULD have done this to this carb.
You say you have seen what ethanol can do. How do you know it is from the ethanol and not just poorly made parts? We all know things are not made to last anymore like back 30 years ago.
I have mowers that are 10 years old with over a 1000 hours on them and have never had to clean a carb. Could be because ethanol does not hurt then or could be because I change filter and lines.
Gas with ethanol might cause some problems but I have never seen it.
Maybe because I take care of my things.
I have mowers that have been sitting with gas in them for months. They will start and run fine.
IMO all the crap people add to the gas to fight the ethanol does more harm then good.
I run 118 octane in my chevy 632ci
If I was to let fuel sit in the carb for 2 months it would look like the carb you are working on. It has no ethanol in it.
I run e10 in all my mowers I am not going to spend a extra $20 a day for ethanol free gas.
I guess it comes down to how you maintain your things.
Thank you for your input and info. It was very good reading.
#90
Nwatson99
Yes sir it does contain ethanol gas, however the 93 octane having the much higher octane percentage will burn cleaner, hotter, and much better for your engines.
The kid that weed-eats for me was telling me he had to clean his spark plug every month with a wire brush "he was using 87 octane with any fuel mix he could buy", so I told him heck even gave him a brand new plug for his weed eater, then I filled his tank up with my mix and told him from now on try 93 octane gas and stihl ultra mix and if his plug was not cleaner and he did not have to clean it every month I would give him the money for his stihl mix.
The kid just called me minutes before this post to confirm about weed eating this evening and I asked him about his plug with running the 93 octane gas and with stihl ultra mix, he then tells me he just removed his plug before calling me knowing I was going to ask him about it and it was clean with zero need for a wire brush.
So with my personal trials, my family, friends, and now the kid weed-eating for me telling me all the same results I know 87 octane, lower octane ratings, or the real cheap ethanol gas is bad for lawn equipment, mowers, etc. and no one will ever be able to convince me differently.
Nwatson99
Ethanol is bad from both energy efficiency and total CO2 emission standpoint but it's unlikely ethanol gas will go away any time soon regardless of ethanol lobbying. Ethanol is now used as an oxygenate replacing MBTE since MBTE was found to cause ground water pollution. Until a new, inexpensive oxygenate is developed, 10% ethanol gas will probably be the norm. And by the way, most 93 octane gas also contains ethanol.
Yes sir it does contain ethanol gas, however the 93 octane having the much higher octane percentage will burn cleaner, hotter, and much better for your engines.
The kid that weed-eats for me was telling me he had to clean his spark plug every month with a wire brush "he was using 87 octane with any fuel mix he could buy", so I told him heck even gave him a brand new plug for his weed eater, then I filled his tank up with my mix and told him from now on try 93 octane gas and stihl ultra mix and if his plug was not cleaner and he did not have to clean it every month I would give him the money for his stihl mix.
The kid just called me minutes before this post to confirm about weed eating this evening and I asked him about his plug with running the 93 octane gas and with stihl ultra mix, he then tells me he just removed his plug before calling me knowing I was going to ask him about it and it was clean with zero need for a wire brush.
So with my personal trials, my family, friends, and now the kid weed-eating for me telling me all the same results I know 87 octane, lower octane ratings, or the real cheap ethanol gas is bad for lawn equipment, mowers, etc. and no one will ever be able to convince me differently.
#91
D
den052
D
den052
So for proof of my knowledge of fuel systems, I am a Master Certified Car and Heavy Truck mechanic, certified in all areas of vehicle repair. Work on everything from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Freightliner.
I can assure you that ethanol is not good especially for 2 cycle engines in chain saws and etc. My Stihl chainsaw has a plastic gas cap that is getting exceedingly hard to screw into the tank because the threads (complete gas cap), have swollen from ethanol and it turns very hard.
Stihl sells a fuel with no ethanol for use in their chainsaws and weed whackers. It is about $8-9 dollars a QUART. A gallon would cost about $32.00
However a small airplane mechanic and I got to talking about ethanol in gasoline. The FAA will not let ethanol be used in aircraft fuel systems. So Aviation Gas (AVGAS), does not contain any ethanol. Come to find out, the general public can buy AVGAS too. Theres no restriction. He said all you have to do is go to a local airport, and ask someone where the pumps are to get it. Where I live, you just drive to the airport and insert your debit card in the pump and pump it into an appropriate container. It is about $5.00-$5.50 a gallon based on my location at the present time, but contains no ETHANOL. They apparently don't mind the public purchasing it either at that price per gallon.
It also has the unique ability to be used 2-3 years after you put it into a storage container and is just as potent as when you put it in (it doesn't get stale). So if you use your equipment seasonally, you don't need to purchase Stabil or drain your equipment. Many people would balk at the price being $1.00 to $2.00 more per gallon, but $25 worth would power a lot of chainsaws or mow your lawn all summer long at that price. Just like the old days with no ETHANOL.
I can assure you that ethanol is not good especially for 2 cycle engines in chain saws and etc. My Stihl chainsaw has a plastic gas cap that is getting exceedingly hard to screw into the tank because the threads (complete gas cap), have swollen from ethanol and it turns very hard.
Stihl sells a fuel with no ethanol for use in their chainsaws and weed whackers. It is about $8-9 dollars a QUART. A gallon would cost about $32.00
However a small airplane mechanic and I got to talking about ethanol in gasoline. The FAA will not let ethanol be used in aircraft fuel systems. So Aviation Gas (AVGAS), does not contain any ethanol. Come to find out, the general public can buy AVGAS too. Theres no restriction. He said all you have to do is go to a local airport, and ask someone where the pumps are to get it. Where I live, you just drive to the airport and insert your debit card in the pump and pump it into an appropriate container. It is about $5.00-$5.50 a gallon based on my location at the present time, but contains no ETHANOL. They apparently don't mind the public purchasing it either at that price per gallon.
It also has the unique ability to be used 2-3 years after you put it into a storage container and is just as potent as when you put it in (it doesn't get stale). So if you use your equipment seasonally, you don't need to purchase Stabil or drain your equipment. Many people would balk at the price being $1.00 to $2.00 more per gallon, but $25 worth would power a lot of chainsaws or mow your lawn all summer long at that price. Just like the old days with no ETHANOL.
#92
exotion
Finally some good info! I'll look into aviation gas and as to why they don't want ethonol in air planes
exotion
So for proof of my knowledge of fuel systems, I am a Master Certified Car and Heavy Truck mechanic, certified in all areas of vehicle repair. Work on everything from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Freightliner.
I can assure you that ethanol is not good especially for 2 cycle engines in chain saws and etc. My Stihl chainsaw has a plastic gas cap that is getting exceedingly hard to screw into the tank because the threads (complete gas cap), have swollen from ethanol and it turns very hard.
Stihl sells a fuel with no ethanol for use in their chainsaws and weed whackers. It is about $8-9 dollars a QUART. A gallon would cost about $32.00
However a small airplane mechanic and I got to talking about ethanol in gasoline. The FAA will not let ethanol be used in aircraft fuel systems. So Aviation Gas (AVGAS), does not contain any ethanol. Come to find out, the general public can buy AVGAS too. Theres no restriction. He said all you have to do is go to a local airport, and ask someone where the pumps are to get it. Where I live, you just drive to the airport and insert your debit card in the pump and pump it into an appropriate container. It is about $5.00-$5.50 a gallon based on my location at the present time, but contains no ETHANOL. They apparently don't mind the public purchasing it either at that price per gallon.
It also has the unique ability to be used 2-3 years after you put it into a storage container and is just as potent as when you put it in (it doesn't get stale). So if you use your equipment seasonally, you don't need to purchase Stabil or drain your equipment. Many people would balk at the price being $1.00 to $2.00 more per gallon, but $25 worth would power a lot of chainsaws or mow your lawn all summer long at that price. Just like the old days with no ETHANOL.
Finally some good info! I'll look into aviation gas and as to why they don't want ethonol in air planes
#93
D
den052
D
den052
I would hazard a guess that one of the factors with ethanol would be it tends to boil at high altitudes and also attracts water. One of the pre-flight check list steps is to check for water in the fuel tanks by draining some into a cup to observe.
#94
B
braxx
B
braxx
Well my generator that I posted about last September still has the same 2-3yr old fuel in it and it started just fine in May of this year. The gas is yellow as dark urine. Ethanol hasn't caused any problems for me.
If you want gas ethanol free gas. Check here: Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
No need to go to the airport. I can get ethanol free gas about 5 miles from my house.
If you want gas ethanol free gas. Check here: Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
No need to go to the airport. I can get ethanol free gas about 5 miles from my house.
#95
T
tomsteve
T
tomsteve
quite a few repairs I have done and would believe the culprit to be the ethanol in the gas. cutting open fuel lines and seeing them rotted on the inside is something that shocked me the 1st time I saw it. then seeing the non metal parts in carbs wore out/ rotted/corroded away lead me to believe its the ethanol.
but now im also wondering, after reading this thread and thinkin about it: not everyone has problems with it so im wondering if there could be something in the quality of the non metal parts playing in here( or even the metal parts). manufacturers are always lookin for ways to cut costs on producing their equipment, so im wonderin if maybe them parts are now a lower quality material now?
but now im also wondering, after reading this thread and thinkin about it: not everyone has problems with it so im wondering if there could be something in the quality of the non metal parts playing in here( or even the metal parts). manufacturers are always lookin for ways to cut costs on producing their equipment, so im wonderin if maybe them parts are now a lower quality material now?
#96
Carscw
This is what I am saying.
It is more the poor quality of the parts.
Cars go years running ethanol and no fuel line rot.
Carscw
quite a few repairs I have done and would believe the culprit to be the ethanol in the gas. cutting open fuel lines and seeing them rotted on the inside is something that shocked me the 1st time I saw it. then seeing the non metal parts in carbs wore out/ rotted/corroded away lead me to believe its the ethanol. but now im also wondering, after reading this thread and thinkin about it: not everyone has problems with it so im wondering if there could be something in the quality of the non metal parts playing in here( or even the metal parts). manufacturers are always lookin for ways to cut costs on producing their equipment, so im wonderin if maybe them parts are now a lower quality material now?
This is what I am saying.
It is more the poor quality of the parts.
Cars go years running ethanol and no fuel line rot.
#97
D
den052
Braxx, Very good info on Ethanol free gas stations. Yes you probably won't have problems a time or two with your generator. However with my generator, eventually the carb gummed up from the old gas after a few times of this and I had to disassemble and clean the carb. This was not however the fault of Ethanol. It was problems with stale gasoline. I added a drain line where I could drain the tank of the generator and run it dry to store it. The problem is that you never know how long your generator will sit before its needed again.
The BIGGEST problem with Ethanol is attacking rubber parts and causing swelling of gas caps and rubber o rings and etc.
It also causes equipment with carburetors to run slightly lean. Try running a engine with a carburetor temporarily with E85. You have to run it with the choke partly on to make it run correctly even warmed up. (I did this as an experiment once on my motorcycle, and drained the tank immediately afterward).
D
den052
This is what I am saying.
It is more the poor quality of the parts.
Cars go years running ethanol and no fuel line rot.
Braxx, Very good info on Ethanol free gas stations. Yes you probably won't have problems a time or two with your generator. However with my generator, eventually the carb gummed up from the old gas after a few times of this and I had to disassemble and clean the carb. This was not however the fault of Ethanol. It was problems with stale gasoline. I added a drain line where I could drain the tank of the generator and run it dry to store it. The problem is that you never know how long your generator will sit before its needed again.
The BIGGEST problem with Ethanol is attacking rubber parts and causing swelling of gas caps and rubber o rings and etc.
It also causes equipment with carburetors to run slightly lean. Try running a engine with a carburetor temporarily with E85. You have to run it with the choke partly on to make it run correctly even warmed up. (I did this as an experiment once on my motorcycle, and drained the tank immediately afterward).
#98
pjturchen
Ethanol is not responsible for destroying anything. As for your statement "I am a Master Certified Car and Heavy Truck mechanic, certified in all areas of vehicle repair" I would like to think you have done your homework which is not proven in your rant. You need to check your facts and possibly get your hands a little dirty. Their have been many tests done to prove a few things. I'm surprised that for being a fuel system mechanic you don't already know this, but here goes. Fact#1 Since the introduction of ethanol to fuel supply it has drastically reduced pollutants from all combustion systems associated. Fact#2 Ethanol does such a good job of cleaning up the gas that it allows the refiners to add more junk. Fact #2 has been proven through numerous studies conducted and all show the levels of benzene's are sky high including all the other components. Because of the increase on this junk, that is what's damaging fuel system components. I will attach a couple youtube links for your review. I would also be willing to send test data to you proving the gas quality has gotten worse. I don't mean to be sarcastic but often come across that way during times of frustration. These arguments about ethanol causing this or damaging that have run their course. The ethanol produced here in America is a great thing. It brings jobs to the table and money to the local economy. We're very simple in nature and our staff of people it takes to run these facilities are normal folks you would bump into on the street. I would be happy to work with you and see if we could get to some common ground on this issue. I have an abundance of information and truly think this could benefit all parties. pjturchen@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDJs6nuNWkY
http://youtu.be/Vj2Rhv5szzQ
pjturchen
So for proof of my knowledge of fuel systems, I am a Master Certified Car and Heavy Truck mechanic, certified in all areas of vehicle repair. Work on everything from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Freightliner.
I can assure you that ethanol is not good especially for 2 cycle engines in chain saws and etc. My Stihl chainsaw has a plastic gas cap that is getting exceedingly hard to screw into the tank because the threads (complete gas cap), have swollen from ethanol and it turns very hard.
Stihl sells a fuel with no ethanol for use in their chainsaws and weed whackers. It is about $8-9 dollars a QUART. A gallon would cost about $32.00
However a small airplane mechanic and I got to talking about ethanol in gasoline. The FAA will not let ethanol be used in aircraft fuel systems. So Aviation Gas (AVGAS), does not contain any ethanol. Come to find out, the general public can buy AVGAS too. Theres no restriction. He said all you have to do is go to a local airport, and ask someone where the pumps are to get it. Where I live, you just drive to the airport and insert your debit card in the pump and pump it into an appropriate container. It is about $5.00-$5.50 a gallon based on my location at the present time, but contains no ETHANOL. They apparently don't mind the public purchasing it either at that price per gallon.
It also has the unique ability to be used 2-3 years after you put it into a storage container and is just as potent as when you put it in (it doesn't get stale). So if you use your equipment seasonally, you don't need to purchase Stabil or drain your equipment. Many people would balk at the price being $1.00 to $2.00 more per gallon, but $25 worth would power a lot of chainsaws or mow your lawn all summer long at that price. Just like the old days with no ETHANOL.
Ethanol is not responsible for destroying anything. As for your statement "I am a Master Certified Car and Heavy Truck mechanic, certified in all areas of vehicle repair" I would like to think you have done your homework which is not proven in your rant. You need to check your facts and possibly get your hands a little dirty. Their have been many tests done to prove a few things. I'm surprised that for being a fuel system mechanic you don't already know this, but here goes. Fact#1 Since the introduction of ethanol to fuel supply it has drastically reduced pollutants from all combustion systems associated. Fact#2 Ethanol does such a good job of cleaning up the gas that it allows the refiners to add more junk. Fact #2 has been proven through numerous studies conducted and all show the levels of benzene's are sky high including all the other components. Because of the increase on this junk, that is what's damaging fuel system components. I will attach a couple youtube links for your review. I would also be willing to send test data to you proving the gas quality has gotten worse. I don't mean to be sarcastic but often come across that way during times of frustration. These arguments about ethanol causing this or damaging that have run their course. The ethanol produced here in America is a great thing. It brings jobs to the table and money to the local economy. We're very simple in nature and our staff of people it takes to run these facilities are normal folks you would bump into on the street. I would be happy to work with you and see if we could get to some common ground on this issue. I have an abundance of information and truly think this could benefit all parties. pjturchen@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDJs6nuNWkY
http://youtu.be/Vj2Rhv5szzQ
#99
P
panabiker
P
panabiker
If ethanol is such a great fuel, why does EPA put out a warning label on the pumps like this one? It sounds to me it's against Federal Law to put E15 gasoline into most (if not all) lawn mowers.
#100
exotion
exotion
Same reason epa taxes the hell out of solar panels... Or electric cars, or anything that might take money out of big business. Big business funds elections putting someone who will benefit them in charge of things like these.... Because guess what there will be a time where we run out of natural oil and petrol. So they have been trying to slow that down and look for alternatives that's why ethonol exists.
#101
pjturchen
The main issues is getting the refiners to make the different octane levels the same. You can have consistent octane levels but all the other trash that is in gas varies so much. The automakers actually would build better engines to accommodate any blend of ethanol.
pjturchen
No one, not even the car manufacturers, unless the fuel system is specifically rated to run on E85, recommends running anything more than E10 because of the corrosive properties of the ethanol and the damage it can do to hoses and orings. Other than that, and the decrease in fuel economy (many reported seeing as much as 2mpg less when gas stations began switching to the e10), I see no disadvantage to using e10. Straight gas might run better, but I've been using e10 in all mystuff, and all I do is treat it with some stabil over the winter and havn't had any issues.
The main issues is getting the refiners to make the different octane levels the same. You can have consistent octane levels but all the other trash that is in gas varies so much. The automakers actually would build better engines to accommodate any blend of ethanol.
#102
pjturchen
Complete bull here!!! I have a POS lawnmower that I use 10% ETOH in every year. The funny thing is this thing will sit through the winter months with snow on top. I know I shouldn't treat it like this but it starts every year with no problems. No deterioration of any fuel system components. My snow blower is the same in treatment and that is with a mixed gas. As for the condensation???? What the hell do you think is in a bottle of heat that you use to keep your fuel dry?????
pjturchen
I have worked with small engines all my life. My Dad owned an outdoor power equipment dealership and this topic came up quite often. Ethanol is not bad for a small engine. What is bad is when you allow ethanol blended fuel to sit in the tank or the carb for extended periods of time. The earlier post was on the money. Ethanol attracts condensation. Over time this can damage carburetors and internal engine parts. If you use your equipment everyday and run all he fuel out everyday you will not have any issues. Years ago, fuel lines could not hold up to ethanol blended fuels. This is not the case today.
If you are homeowner who only runs a few tanks a year through your equipment I would say you should buy fuel with no ethanol. If you use your equipment everyday it won't matter as long as you don't leave the fuel in while you store it over the winter. I myself am a typical homeowner now. I work on small engines for fun and to relax. I never drain my fuel over the winter, I only use the highest octane fuel I can find at the gas station and I never, ever have an issue starting my equipment come springtime. I made plenty of money each spring (and winter with snowblowers) from people who did not do this. I also worked with plenty of Lawn cutting services who only bought 87 octane blended fuel that never had an issue. This is a topic that will be debated for quite some time to come, I'm sure.
Complete bull here!!! I have a POS lawnmower that I use 10% ETOH in every year. The funny thing is this thing will sit through the winter months with snow on top. I know I shouldn't treat it like this but it starts every year with no problems. No deterioration of any fuel system components. My snow blower is the same in treatment and that is with a mixed gas. As for the condensation???? What the hell do you think is in a bottle of heat that you use to keep your fuel dry?????
#103
pjturchen
Check your facts. What do you think happens to the corn that goes for biofuels? Let's just rule out that it is not human consumable corn. Secondly do you think that only ethanol is made from it and it goes to land waste? The cattle get the corn back with all the nutritional value. It is supplied outward as the ethanol plants grind corn to make ETOH. Their is so much more to it than what you're stating. Typical corn #2 yellow has an overabundance of starch. The ethanol plant is only after the starch. Because it goes through the process of cooking to make mash. Then to fermentation & distillation for making alcohol. The rest is separated out and sold back to the farmer at a competitive price. Not only that it is readily digestible for the cattle.
pturchen@gmail.com
pjturchen
Another ethanol-bashing comment......have you noticed the increase in the price of meat & dairy products since the proliferation of ethanol gasoline. Information I have gotten from Tennessee farmers that I know is that the competitive pricing for maintaining "corn-fed" stock with the biofuel producers scooping up huge corn crops have filtered down to the price they have to charge to market their products because of increased feed costs. That......2-4mpg less fuel mileage economy, "debatable" adverse affects on fuel systems.....can someone please tell what is GOOD about ethanol???? And don't tell me "environmental benefits"....my 1995 Chevy truck passed emissions testing before ethanol and actually, the only time it failed was with a post-ethanol annual MARTA test to renew the tags(good ole SeaFoam cured that failed test). Also......have you noticed how many "gas treatment products" have come to market over the last few years(since ethanol became widespread) with the intention of helping your vehicle pass the emission tests(what's up with that:0)
Check your facts. What do you think happens to the corn that goes for biofuels? Let's just rule out that it is not human consumable corn. Secondly do you think that only ethanol is made from it and it goes to land waste? The cattle get the corn back with all the nutritional value. It is supplied outward as the ethanol plants grind corn to make ETOH. Their is so much more to it than what you're stating. Typical corn #2 yellow has an overabundance of starch. The ethanol plant is only after the starch. Because it goes through the process of cooking to make mash. Then to fermentation & distillation for making alcohol. The rest is separated out and sold back to the farmer at a competitive price. Not only that it is readily digestible for the cattle.
pturchen@gmail.com
#104
djdicetn
Since you critiqued my post(aside from "adding" the "Another ethanol-bashing comment..." to it), I'll off a rebuttal. Soooooo, do you have friends that are farmers there in Colorado(hemp doesn't count:0) All I can say is the farmers I know here in Tennessee that raise cattle have told me the price of their feed for the cattle has increased since the introduction of ethanol(and I have no reason to think they would lie to me about that). Next....are you old enough to have used non-ethanol gasoline in your automobile/truck?? If so, are you getting the same gas mileage using E10 that you did in that same vehicle under the same driving conditions than you got using the pure gasoline??? Next.....Are you saving $ at the pump now over what you paid before E10 was introduced(or putting ANY additives to your E10 fuel)???? I'll let everybody else argue about the adverse effect on small engines(or engine-related components), but the three specific areas I mentioned are absolute facts. That's my story and I'm sticking to it:0)
P.S.
To all others, I consider those three disadvantages of ethanol...........yes, a PROBLEM.....and proof thereof:0)
djdicetn
Check your facts. What do you think happens to the corn that goes for biofuels? Let's just rule out that it is not human consumable corn. Secondly do you think that only ethanol is made from it and it goes to land waste? The cattle get the corn back with all the nutritional value. It is supplied outward as the ethanol plants grind corn to make ETOH. Their is so much more to it than what you're stating. Typical corn #2 yellow has an overabundance of starch. The ethanol plant is only after the starch. Because it goes through the process of cooking to make mash. Then to fermentation & distillation for making alcohol. The rest is separated out and sold back to the farmer at a competitive price. Not only that it is readily digestible for the cattle.
pturchen@gmail.com
Since you critiqued my post(aside from "adding" the "Another ethanol-bashing comment..." to it), I'll off a rebuttal. Soooooo, do you have friends that are farmers there in Colorado(hemp doesn't count:0) All I can say is the farmers I know here in Tennessee that raise cattle have told me the price of their feed for the cattle has increased since the introduction of ethanol(and I have no reason to think they would lie to me about that). Next....are you old enough to have used non-ethanol gasoline in your automobile/truck?? If so, are you getting the same gas mileage using E10 that you did in that same vehicle under the same driving conditions than you got using the pure gasoline??? Next.....Are you saving $ at the pump now over what you paid before E10 was introduced(or putting ANY additives to your E10 fuel)???? I'll let everybody else argue about the adverse effect on small engines(or engine-related components), but the three specific areas I mentioned are absolute facts. That's my story and I'm sticking to it:0)
P.S.
To all others, I consider those three disadvantages of ethanol...........yes, a PROBLEM.....and proof thereof:0)
#105
exotion
exotion
Before ethonol was leaded gas. Engines were not built to burn ethonol. So no that same vehicle's milage would suffer because of that. Take a stock 1970 nova next to a modern malibu same class vehicle the new malibu has more power and better milage so that argument is invalid.
Did some research on ethonol bans in aeronautics. Ethonol expands at high altitudes and can crack fuel lines, pumps, and damage engines. As you can imagine no one wants to risk that.
I would imagine places like Washington that ban non ethonol gas would force manufacturers to make ethonol friendly machines, that and its been around for 30 years and is not going anywhere...
Vehicles are starting to use e85 and boasting significant milage increase. (Though Ford just got sued for lying about a few of there vehicles milage) hard to believe ethonol is actually damaging things unless you live above 15000ft..
Did some research on ethonol bans in aeronautics. Ethonol expands at high altitudes and can crack fuel lines, pumps, and damage engines. As you can imagine no one wants to risk that.
I would imagine places like Washington that ban non ethonol gas would force manufacturers to make ethonol friendly machines, that and its been around for 30 years and is not going anywhere...
Vehicles are starting to use e85 and boasting significant milage increase. (Though Ford just got sued for lying about a few of there vehicles milage) hard to believe ethonol is actually damaging things unless you live above 15000ft..
#106
Carscw
Carscw
What oil does everyone use?
#107
D
den052
D
den052
Well this is quite a long thread and arguing for or against Ethanol is not going to convince anyone either way. However, old equipment is not designed to run on Ethanol period. Newest and greatest vehicles survive fine with it. Someone made the statement that Ethanol increases gas mileage and it doesn't. Gas mileage suffers a little with E85. Don't know if the price difference for E85 and the negative gas mileage reduction would offset the cheaper price or not. I have been trying to get my son to compute a tank of E85 and Regular. His mileage computer indicates a reduction of about 5-10 mpg with E85. Experts will agree that E85 is not as efficient as Gasoline but it is cheaper per gallon.
I know as a diesel mechanic that the Ultra low sulfur diesel fuels shrink rubber seals in injection systems and the older diesels start to leak diesel fuel externally from the injection pumps. A way to temporarily stop the leakage is to add about 1 gal of E85 to a 20 gallon tank of Diesel Fuel. The rubber o rings swell up a little and stop leaking for about 3 to 6 weeks. This causes no harm to the injection system. The way to cure the leaks permanently is to disassemble the injection pump and install new o rings and rubber seals. The experts have found that somehow, rubber parts that were used with sulfated diesel fuel and is now subject to ultra low sulfur diesel fuel causes the rubber to shrink. A pump overhauled with NEW rubber seals (same material), but uses only ultra low sulfur diesel fuel apparently is not subject to the leakage problem. But I know for a fact that E85 will temporarily fix the leakage by swelling the rubber seals back to normal for a WHILE.
Older machines using Ethanol in gasoline may have problems. Newer equipment designed to run on it won't, PERIOD.
Experts also will tell you not to run E85 in cars not designed for it as it will cause certain parts to fail as the parts weren't designed to be run on E85. So big question is: 10-15 percent Ethanol is ok, but 85 percent is not? I still think older equipment is not designed to run on either mixture mainly because of sealing problems.
I know as a diesel mechanic that the Ultra low sulfur diesel fuels shrink rubber seals in injection systems and the older diesels start to leak diesel fuel externally from the injection pumps. A way to temporarily stop the leakage is to add about 1 gal of E85 to a 20 gallon tank of Diesel Fuel. The rubber o rings swell up a little and stop leaking for about 3 to 6 weeks. This causes no harm to the injection system. The way to cure the leaks permanently is to disassemble the injection pump and install new o rings and rubber seals. The experts have found that somehow, rubber parts that were used with sulfated diesel fuel and is now subject to ultra low sulfur diesel fuel causes the rubber to shrink. A pump overhauled with NEW rubber seals (same material), but uses only ultra low sulfur diesel fuel apparently is not subject to the leakage problem. But I know for a fact that E85 will temporarily fix the leakage by swelling the rubber seals back to normal for a WHILE.
Older machines using Ethanol in gasoline may have problems. Newer equipment designed to run on it won't, PERIOD.
Experts also will tell you not to run E85 in cars not designed for it as it will cause certain parts to fail as the parts weren't designed to be run on E85. So big question is: 10-15 percent Ethanol is ok, but 85 percent is not? I still think older equipment is not designed to run on either mixture mainly because of sealing problems.
#108
exotion
exotion
E85 is newer and cars made for it boast better milage. Cars not designed for it are not going to get the milage benefit.. just like cars not made for e10 didn't get the milage boost. Manufacturers are telling people to not rib e85 because it makes cars not made for it run rough due to timing issues.... It would be like burning premium in a regular car.
I am wondering about the quality of parts issue. Engines are not made the same way they used to be but technology has come leaps and strides. According to my research newer plastics are of a better quality with a higher melting temp, less harmful chemicals (bpa), and lighter weight. Rubber seems to have taken a dip looks like most fuel lines and rubber is not even fully rubber anymore. It's a polyrubber reinforced with a netting. The amount of rubber in our rubber (including vehicle tires) is less than 30%. It's a mix of plastic and other by products that changes by manufacturer. I am having a hard time finding the ingredient lists for basic rubber fuel lines.
Wondering if these by products could be damaged by ethonol?
I am wondering about the quality of parts issue. Engines are not made the same way they used to be but technology has come leaps and strides. According to my research newer plastics are of a better quality with a higher melting temp, less harmful chemicals (bpa), and lighter weight. Rubber seems to have taken a dip looks like most fuel lines and rubber is not even fully rubber anymore. It's a polyrubber reinforced with a netting. The amount of rubber in our rubber (including vehicle tires) is less than 30%. It's a mix of plastic and other by products that changes by manufacturer. I am having a hard time finding the ingredient lists for basic rubber fuel lines.
Wondering if these by products could be damaged by ethonol?
#109
D
den052
D
den052
Yes things such as EcoBoost, (Ford), do offer increased mileage. However if you look at the actual mileage charts (or EPA ratings), when you run E85, the mileage drops somewhat. Manufacturers are looking at everything to increase mileage and have made substantial gains. They are cutting the alternator out when it is not needed, 6 and 8 speed automatics, and many other things such as storing energy when you go down a hill, to be used when you climb the next hill.
As I've mentioned before, Ethanol does not harm parts that are designed to operate with it. It does deteriorate rubber gas lines that were not formulated for it. Most cars now have plastic lines with special plastic formulas. Experts tell you do not use E85 in a vehicle not designed for it as it can cause injector problems and fuel system damage because those parts are not designed for it. My 2005 Impala says right in the owners manual not to use it.
I'm not bashing E85 or gas with 10-15% ethanol. I am just saying that older equipment not designed for it suffers. And yes, I have used regular gas in my equipment wondering about the effects of it. I can assuredly tell you that I have had rubber gas lines SWELL and become loose on the fittings and replaced them. I have had diaphragms in carburetors deteriorate and split (probably because of the ethanol). But it was in equipment that was made before this ETHANOL thing came about.
The big question is:
Does making ethanol cause a surplus of fuel (and by how much), or how much gasoline or diesel fuel does it take to make a gallon of ethanol?
I have heard that by the time you figure in the fuel used to plow the field, fuel for cultivating, harvesting, transport to the plant, transporting used mash or unwanted product back to the farm to be recycled, and the fuel burned to boil the alcohol out of the mash, it is a negative value! (And you could add the negative effect of higher prices for corn not used for fuel consumption too.)
Interesting, someone should put a farm and a ethanol plant under a DOME, (like the TV show). See if 2 years down the road, do they have excess fuel or not?
As I've mentioned before, Ethanol does not harm parts that are designed to operate with it. It does deteriorate rubber gas lines that were not formulated for it. Most cars now have plastic lines with special plastic formulas. Experts tell you do not use E85 in a vehicle not designed for it as it can cause injector problems and fuel system damage because those parts are not designed for it. My 2005 Impala says right in the owners manual not to use it.
I'm not bashing E85 or gas with 10-15% ethanol. I am just saying that older equipment not designed for it suffers. And yes, I have used regular gas in my equipment wondering about the effects of it. I can assuredly tell you that I have had rubber gas lines SWELL and become loose on the fittings and replaced them. I have had diaphragms in carburetors deteriorate and split (probably because of the ethanol). But it was in equipment that was made before this ETHANOL thing came about.
The big question is:
Does making ethanol cause a surplus of fuel (and by how much), or how much gasoline or diesel fuel does it take to make a gallon of ethanol?
I have heard that by the time you figure in the fuel used to plow the field, fuel for cultivating, harvesting, transport to the plant, transporting used mash or unwanted product back to the farm to be recycled, and the fuel burned to boil the alcohol out of the mash, it is a negative value! (And you could add the negative effect of higher prices for corn not used for fuel consumption too.)
Interesting, someone should put a farm and a ethanol plant under a DOME, (like the TV show). See if 2 years down the road, do they have excess fuel or not?
#110
pjturchen
Very good! We grow plenty of corn here in Colorado. The expansion at high altitude doesn't add up. If you take a gas sample as is with 10% ethanol and a separate sample of 100% ethanol in two plastic containers. You will find mass expansion of the gas sample while the ethanol sample has no expansion. The first car built was designed to run on ethanol. It even had an adjustable carburetor in case you were running a blend. If Henry Ford could build a vehicle like this during his time then what is the issue now. Big oil will have you believe this that and the other. I can send over factual studies and testing that have proven the gas quality from refiners is far worse as the years have moved along. Because of that poor quality it is destroying fuel system components. The state of Colorado has plenty of feed yards around here that have thousands of head of cattle that absolutely love the feed. The price is competitive and have been feeding this for 10 years or better. Please tell me that a state such as Colorado who is a little behind the agriculture times is not doing better than Tennessee when it comes to farming & feeding. I can get you the information if you would like? I'm not here to start rants or raves about anything really. Yes I do work for the industry and it has proven itself more than enough. I just want to reach out to people like you and get the information in your hands. If anything get you more contacts for you to do your own investigative research.
pturchen@gmail.com
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
pjturchen
Since you critiqued my post(aside from "adding" the "Another ethanol-bashing comment..." to it), I'll off a rebuttal. Soooooo, do you have friends that are farmers there in Colorado(hemp doesn't count:0) All I can say is the farmers I know here in Tennessee that raise cattle have told me the price of their feed for the cattle has increased since the introduction of ethanol(and I have no reason to think they would lie to me about that). Next....are you old enough to have used non-ethanol gasoline in your automobile/truck?? If so, are you getting the same gas mileage using E10 that you did in that same vehicle under the same driving conditions than you got using the pure gasoline??? Next.....Are you saving $ at the pump now over what you paid before E10 was introduced(or putting ANY additives to your E10 fuel)???? I'll let everybody else argue about the adverse effect on small engines(or engine-related components), but the three specific areas I mentioned are absolute facts. That's my story and I'm sticking to it:0)
P.S.
To all others, I consider those three disadvantages of ethanol...........yes, a PROBLEM.....and proof thereof:0)
Very good! We grow plenty of corn here in Colorado. The expansion at high altitude doesn't add up. If you take a gas sample as is with 10% ethanol and a separate sample of 100% ethanol in two plastic containers. You will find mass expansion of the gas sample while the ethanol sample has no expansion. The first car built was designed to run on ethanol. It even had an adjustable carburetor in case you were running a blend. If Henry Ford could build a vehicle like this during his time then what is the issue now. Big oil will have you believe this that and the other. I can send over factual studies and testing that have proven the gas quality from refiners is far worse as the years have moved along. Because of that poor quality it is destroying fuel system components. The state of Colorado has plenty of feed yards around here that have thousands of head of cattle that absolutely love the feed. The price is competitive and have been feeding this for 10 years or better. Please tell me that a state such as Colorado who is a little behind the agriculture times is not doing better than Tennessee when it comes to farming & feeding. I can get you the information if you would like? I'm not here to start rants or raves about anything really. Yes I do work for the industry and it has proven itself more than enough. I just want to reach out to people like you and get the information in your hands. If anything get you more contacts for you to do your own investigative research.
pturchen@gmail.com
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
#111
djdicetn
Kudos, Carscw, for trying to detour this thread into a "different" heated debate(conventional vs synthetic oil:0)
On the other hand......are you NUTS for bringing that up or what?:0)
djdicetn
What oil does everyone use?
Kudos, Carscw, for trying to detour this thread into a "different" heated debate(conventional vs synthetic oil:0)
On the other hand......are you NUTS for bringing that up or what?:0)
#112
Carscw
Carscw
Why do my back wheels roll forward?
#113
djdicetn
No...."I said" ethanol "decreases" gas mileage on large engine applications. My vehicles are by no means "new"(1995 Chevy Silverado with a 350 V8 and a 2001 Lincoln LS with a 4.0L V8). The Lincoln "requires" 91+ Octane but I had always used Amoco Premium in both vehicles since buying them new. I am averaging approx. 5mpg less mileage in the Lincoln and 4MPG less in the Chevy truck since I began using the 93 Octane ethanol in both vehicles. Soooooo....I am "burning more gas" to go the same distance as I did with pure gasoline and paying more per gallon. What about this picture doesn't seem right?????
So, I guess the solution(that the EPA would recommend) is that EVERYBODY junk their "pre-ethanol manufactured" vehicles and buy a new flex fuel vehicle. Sorry......not an option.
djdicetn
Well this is quite a long thread and arguing for or against Ethanol is not going to convince anyone either way. However, old equipment is not designed to run on Ethanol period. Newest and greatest vehicles survive fine with it. Someone made the statement that Ethanol increases gas mileage and it doesn't. Gas mileage suffers a little with E85. Don't know if the price difference for E85 and the negative gas mileage reduction would offset the cheaper price or not. I have been trying to get my son to compute a tank of E85 and Regular. His mileage computer indicates a reduction of about 5-10 mpg with E85. Experts will agree that E85 is not as efficient as Gasoline but it is cheaper per gallon.
I know as a diesel mechanic that the Ultra low sulfur diesel fuels shrink rubber seals in injection systems and the older diesels start to leak diesel fuel externally from the injection pumps. A way to temporarily stop the leakage is to add about 1 gal of E85 to a 20 gallon tank of Diesel Fuel. The rubber o rings swell up a little and stop leaking for about 3 to 6 weeks. This causes no harm to the injection system. The way to cure the leaks permanently is to disassemble the injection pump and install new o rings and rubber seals. The experts have found that somehow, rubber parts that were used with sulfated diesel fuel and is now subject to ultra low sulfur diesel fuel causes the rubber to shrink. A pump overhauled with NEW rubber seals (same material), but uses only ultra low sulfur diesel fuel apparently is not subject to the leakage problem. But I know for a fact that E85 will temporarily fix the leakage by swelling the rubber seals back to normal for a WHILE.
Older machines using Ethanol in gasoline may have problems. Newer equipment designed to run on it won't, PERIOD.
Experts also will tell you not to run E85 in cars not designed for it as it will cause certain parts to fail as the parts weren't designed to be run on E85. So big question is: 10-15 percent Ethanol is ok, but 85 percent is not? I still think older equipment is not designed to run on either mixture mainly because of sealing problems.
No...."I said" ethanol "decreases" gas mileage on large engine applications. My vehicles are by no means "new"(1995 Chevy Silverado with a 350 V8 and a 2001 Lincoln LS with a 4.0L V8). The Lincoln "requires" 91+ Octane but I had always used Amoco Premium in both vehicles since buying them new. I am averaging approx. 5mpg less mileage in the Lincoln and 4MPG less in the Chevy truck since I began using the 93 Octane ethanol in both vehicles. Soooooo....I am "burning more gas" to go the same distance as I did with pure gasoline and paying more per gallon. What about this picture doesn't seem right?????
So, I guess the solution(that the EPA would recommend) is that EVERYBODY junk their "pre-ethanol manufactured" vehicles and buy a new flex fuel vehicle. Sorry......not an option.
#114
djdicetn
Because you didn't put it in "R" for Racing:0)
djdicetn
Why do my back wheels roll forward?
Because you didn't put it in "R" for Racing:0)
#115
djdicetn
Obviously, I'm the only boat owner in this thread:0)
Soooooooo.....everyone would recommend that I begin using E10(E15 when it's forced upon us), or maybe even E85 in my 1999 125hp 2-stroke Mercury outboard????? Or gut the fuel tank system and replace all gas lines, etc. with ethanol-friendly components. Or better yet, just junk my boat that has been garage kept for 15 years, has < 100 hours on the water(my wife & I just recently retired and NOW we can really USE the boat) and still looks/performs like a brand new boat(has never seen an ounce of ethanol gasoline in it's tank). I despise the EPA for putting me in a position like this!!!!!!!
djdicetn
E85 is newer and cars made for it boast better milage. Cars not designed for it are not going to get the milage benefit.. just like cars not made for e10 didn't get the milage boost. Manufacturers are telling people to not rib e85 because it makes cars not made for it run rough due to timing issues.... It would be like burning premium in a regular car.
I am wondering about the quality of parts issue. Engines are not made the same way they used to be but technology has come leaps and strides. According to my research newer plastics are of a better quality with a higher melting temp, less harmful chemicals (bpa), and lighter weight. Rubber seems to have taken a dip looks like most fuel lines and rubber is not even fully rubber anymore. It's a polyrubber reinforced with a netting. The amount of rubber in our rubber (including vehicle tires) is less than 30%. It's a mix of plastic and other by products that changes by manufacturer. I am having a hard time finding the ingredient lists for basic rubber fuel lines.
Wondering if these by products could be damaged by ethonol?
Obviously, I'm the only boat owner in this thread:0)
Soooooooo.....everyone would recommend that I begin using E10(E15 when it's forced upon us), or maybe even E85 in my 1999 125hp 2-stroke Mercury outboard????? Or gut the fuel tank system and replace all gas lines, etc. with ethanol-friendly components. Or better yet, just junk my boat that has been garage kept for 15 years, has < 100 hours on the water(my wife & I just recently retired and NOW we can really USE the boat) and still looks/performs like a brand new boat(has never seen an ounce of ethanol gasoline in it's tank). I despise the EPA for putting me in a position like this!!!!!!!
#116
djdicetn
That all sounds really good....now read my earlier post about my 1999 boat and give me some solid advice based upon what YOU would do:0)
djdicetn
Very good! We grow plenty of corn here in Colorado. The expansion at high altitude doesn't add up. If you take a gas sample as is with 10% ethanol and a separate sample of 100% ethanol in two plastic containers. You will find mass expansion of the gas sample while the ethanol sample has no expansion. The first car built was designed to run on ethanol. It even had an adjustable carburetor in case you were running a blend. If Henry Ford could build a vehicle like this during his time then what is the issue now. Big oil will have you believe this that and the other. I can send over factual studies and testing that have proven the gas quality from refiners is far worse as the years have moved along. Because of that poor quality it is destroying fuel system components. The state of Colorado has plenty of feed yards around here that have thousands of head of cattle that absolutely love the feed. The price is competitive and have been feeding this for 10 years or better. Please tell me that a state such as Colorado who is a little behind the agriculture times is not doing better than Tennessee when it comes to farming & feeding. I can get you the information if you would like? I'm not here to start rants or raves about anything really. Yes I do work for the industry and it has proven itself more than enough. I just want to reach out to people like you and get the information in your hands. If anything get you more contacts for you to do your own investigative research.
pturchen@gmail.com
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
That all sounds really good....now read my earlier post about my 1999 boat and give me some solid advice based upon what YOU would do:0)
#117
BlazNT
BlazNT
Im sure this will not be proof either but here it goes. My son and I changed an 1997 eclipse GST to E-85 for racing. We to did not believe the severity of ethanol problems they say you can have. I do now. Now just a little bit about the fuel lines in the eclipse. Almost all of the line is hard line. Just a few places where rubber fuel line is. So back the the build. We rebuild the motor to except the higher horse power we were expecting. Going to around 600 wheel HP. After completing and putting in the car we spent a few weeks tuning it to run with E-85. Then the problems started. Cutting out and not getting the HP we expected. Pulled the fuel injectors and put in new set and all was great again. Then about a week later same problem. Took injectors out and found gas to have a slight black tint. Asked all the guys that have done the E-85 change over about this. They ask one question. Did you change your fuel lines to ethanol fuel lines? Answer was no. There is less than 2ft of rubber fuel line why not change it. Taking the old line off I could tell the line was way more deteriorated than normal. One piece even broke in half when pulling it off. After lines where replaced and fuel injectors cleaned problem has never returned. Plus I also did a google search and clicked images, Thousand of them and some that even did testing on the damage to find what it was. You have been very lucky and Im glad for you but this is what I have seen for myself. I myself moved to 91 in all my mowers, weedeaters, and blower. Use less gas(I used to run around 3.5 gal of gas a week now down to 2.75) and could protect my equipment. Win Win for me.
#118
R
rlaman
You guys seem to be on top of things. Let me ask you about my Dual Force. The drive wheels drag when I pull the machine back words. I have replaced the little mechanical rockers in the drive wheels and the plastic washers that they ride in but it didnt change anything. Any help with this problem would be appreciated. Thanks. BL
R
rlaman
Boy I'm glad that the lawn care specialists are such experts on the problems with todays fuels. You probably won't accept my proof, but it might help the average uneducated lawn specialists. About 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs. Problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment. What we were finding was, gel in fuel bowls, corrosion of aluminum carb bodies, fuel lines and filters softening and breaking down in four cycle, hradening and breaking in two cycle. If you are in the repair business this is not how to keep customers. We tried everything that we knew to find what we were missing, doing wrong, or what is causing our problems. We had heard about people suggesting ethanol causing the problem and decided to change the fuel we used in the shop to non ethanol fuel and had a sticker made up to educate our customers which is put on every piece of equipment that leaves the shop. Since doing so we have cut our comebacks by over 90% and have also seen our business increase as more new customers are returning with different equipment which other dealers have not been able to repair. Most of them now use the non ethanol fuel in all of their small engine equipment and have told us that they are please with the way they running and now only see us for routine service.
Also, one of the small engine trade magazines just had an article by a VP at Briggs, who talked about the problems which engine manufacturers are having with the different fuels out there and what they are doing to find a solution.
Is this the proof you want, probably not, but for the average guy who reads this, it is a way which we have helped our customers and it only costs about $10.00 a year. (That's figuring 40 cents more per gallon for the customer who uses 25 gallons a year in their small engine equipment). To me that's cheap insurance.
For those that question whether we really have experience in our shop, there are four mechanics who have over 125 years in the service industry, with the lowest guy with only about 20. Certificates on our wall include those for working on 8 small engine manufacturers, 6 equipment manufactures ranging for saws to 140 HP tractors, so we are not a bunch of dumbos.
Is there a problem with ethanol in the small engine industry? It all depends on what you believe. I say yes and right now the solution for us is paying 40 cents more per gallon of gas.
Please. Remember to read my signature.
You guys seem to be on top of things. Let me ask you about my Dual Force. The drive wheels drag when I pull the machine back words. I have replaced the little mechanical rockers in the drive wheels and the plastic washers that they ride in but it didnt change anything. Any help with this problem would be appreciated. Thanks. BL
#119
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
How about you starting a new thread in the right section rather than tacking it onto a 12 page thread that has noting to do with rear wheel drag on a SP walk behind.
#120
L
loneryder
L
loneryder
I don't have a picture(wish I did) but my walk behind mower wouldn't run after sitting for a couple of months. Took it to my local dealer and he pulled the carb off and put the carb in an ultrasonic cleaner. While it was running we looked at the bowl and it was full of white corn starch. He said it was from the ethanol. He was able to save the carb but the next year he had to replace it. And that was with using Stabil. Ask any small engine shop about ethanol gas and how it helps keep them busy.Nice story but you can not do a test like this with just one mower it would not prove anything.
You would need two mowers same make and model both brand new one with ethanol and one without. I bet they both end up the same.
Ok a man brings his blower to a pawn shop starts it to show it runs. They put it in the back room with gas still in it. 120 days later after he does not come back for it they put it on the floor to sell 5 people start it in the next month still on the old gas. Now you go in and buy it and add more has and it runs just fine for the next year. How can this be? I will tell how.
Because this is all made up bullshit from the mower builders to explain why the bellow grade cheap **** the use to build their mowers falls apart in a year.
I have mowers out back that sit for months I can go start any of them and cut the grass with no problems.
For many years we would go buy stuff to add to our gas well guess what it all has ethanol in it.
So still no one can prove that ethanol does any harm.
(( cowboy up and get over it ))
#121
jakewells
jakewells
I buy ethanol free my problems are solved and i run it in everything year round.