cpurvis
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How could it?
break in hints?
- Thread starter chainsaw69
- Start date
How could it?
bertsmobile1
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Again Max, no arguements
I sat on the end of an assembly machine on the night shift during my undergraduate years.
Down here owners have a severe mental problem and seem to think the way to become profitable is to pay the person operating the 40 year old obsolete machine less.
The idea of replacing 6 machines & operators plus 2 support staff with a single machine that will make more filters per hour with one operator than the 6 can make in a day was way beyond their mental capacity .
This is another reason why Chinese parts are so cheap.
Their factory owners know that cheap labour is just a transition period and have been installing more fully automatic high volume machines than the rest of the world combined and multiplied by 5.
India is not quite there yet and perhaps the legacy of the British Imperial thinking is holding them back.
Last year China commissioned over 40 aluminium foundries, fully automated, not a person on the shop floor so if they can keep the volumes up the final product ( raw casting ) will be around 2 to 3 times the metal cost.
Down here it is 14 times and the USA typically is 6 to 10 times.
These foundries can then run virgin metal and make casting for less than USA foundries running 100% scrap, yet industry & politicans continually blame China for the fact local industry is no longer competative.
Not withstanding that the Chinese government is holding the Yuan at a much lower dollar value than it should be.
I sat on the end of an assembly machine on the night shift during my undergraduate years.
Down here owners have a severe mental problem and seem to think the way to become profitable is to pay the person operating the 40 year old obsolete machine less.
The idea of replacing 6 machines & operators plus 2 support staff with a single machine that will make more filters per hour with one operator than the 6 can make in a day was way beyond their mental capacity .
This is another reason why Chinese parts are so cheap.
Their factory owners know that cheap labour is just a transition period and have been installing more fully automatic high volume machines than the rest of the world combined and multiplied by 5.
India is not quite there yet and perhaps the legacy of the British Imperial thinking is holding them back.
Last year China commissioned over 40 aluminium foundries, fully automated, not a person on the shop floor so if they can keep the volumes up the final product ( raw casting ) will be around 2 to 3 times the metal cost.
Down here it is 14 times and the USA typically is 6 to 10 times.
These foundries can then run virgin metal and make casting for less than USA foundries running 100% scrap, yet industry & politicans continually blame China for the fact local industry is no longer competative.
Not withstanding that the Chinese government is holding the Yuan at a much lower dollar value than it should be.
bertsmobile1
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- Nov 29, 2014
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Because the debris on the outside of the filter medium is also filtering the oil and the holes between the debris on the outside end up being smaller than the holes in the filter medium in the first place.
SO it ends up filtering finer particulates out of the oil.
Eventually it gets so thick that the oil can not get through at all so the filter goes into bypass and does not filter at all.
If the filter does not have a bypass then the engine suffers a low oil failure or the oil pump gets overloaded and starts passing excessive oil down the sides of the rotor or gears, reducing its pressure capacity.
Because most filters have a bypass people keep on using them because the oil is flowing OK and they have no understanding about how things work.
Just for my info and clarity, do you work in a plant that manufactures filters for many brands? If so, does each brand have their own specifications that you follow? The reason I ask is that I read an oil filter comparison test by brand a few years ago. I remember that Fram was hit the hardest for quality. That got me to thinking about each brand's manufacturing factory. I asked myself if each brand had their own plant or did they contract it out to a generic plant that makes that particular brand's filter to their own design and specs. I worked in manufacturing industry(not filters) for 30 years and we sold our product to 2nd and 3rd party companies. By contract, 3rd party companies were not allowed to use our name brand as the source. No where on their label was there a mention of my company.
cpurvis
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bert, that's the position that both you and I understand and support.
Somebody made this statement:
That's what I was asking to be explained how that could be true.
An used filter indeed does a better job at filtration than a brand new one, as long as the typical pressure differential across the filter does not exceed the bypass valve opening pressure.
Some filter makers publish the dirt holding capacity of the filter, and they even have different capacity filter variants. As the filter is getting clogged, the flow rate and back-pressure ( the pressure differential
between the clean side and the dirty side) gradually increases. The key insight here is that this backpressure will be within acceptable limits (less than the bypass pressure) as long as the filter does not exceed
its dirt holding capacity. This capacity is what allows filter makers to rate filters for different OCI ( usually given in miles). This capacity differentiator is what makes it passible for a manufacturer to rate a high end
synthetic media filter for 20,000 miles. A high capacity filter, therefore can be surely left on the vehicle across 2 oil changes. For example, on one of my vehicles the OCI is 7500 miles. Which I do follow.
But I am using a high capacity filter which is 20,000 mile rated. So at 7500 miles that filter is still perfectly fine, with good flow rate, and the backpressure well under the bypass limit.
So I skip the filter change every other time. The logic is that I use a more expensive, high capacity filter with excellent filtering properties (99% efficiency at > 20 micron particle size) and the high capacity
permits me to cut the cost effectively in half. 2 oils changes per 20K mile filter still leaves me with a 5000 mile safety margin. we have 3 ICE cars, so filter cost adds up.
The point is, that as long as the filter is able to maintain low backpressure and high flow rate, the filtering efficiency does not decrease. On the contrary, it gets better.
Occasional bypass btw is part of normal filter operation, and it is not the end of the world. For example, a cold engine in the winter, will bypass when starting up. Also, if the engine is revved at high
rpm, this is also expected to happen. I say an occasional; bypass is not a disaster, because the oil is continuously being cleaned by the filter, as it is circulated through the filter at a high flow rate.
So the difference between the clean side of the filter and the dirty side is much less dramatic than you would expect (because the oil is continuously being cleaned) .
Of course if the filter is clogged enough so that the pressure differential exceeds the bypass spring pressure, the bypass valve is open most of the time, the filter does not do its job, so the
contaminant level s build up in the oil.
Some filter makers publish the dirt holding capacity of the filter, and they even have different capacity filter variants. As the filter is getting clogged, the flow rate and back-pressure ( the pressure differential
between the clean side and the dirty side) gradually increases. The key insight here is that this backpressure will be within acceptable limits (less than the bypass pressure) as long as the filter does not exceed
its dirt holding capacity. This capacity is what allows filter makers to rate filters for different OCI ( usually given in miles). This capacity differentiator is what makes it passible for a manufacturer to rate a high end
synthetic media filter for 20,000 miles. A high capacity filter, therefore can be surely left on the vehicle across 2 oil changes. For example, on one of my vehicles the OCI is 7500 miles. Which I do follow.
But I am using a high capacity filter which is 20,000 mile rated. So at 7500 miles that filter is still perfectly fine, with good flow rate, and the backpressure well under the bypass limit.
So I skip the filter change every other time. The logic is that I use a more expensive, high capacity filter with excellent filtering properties (99% efficiency at > 20 micron particle size) and the high capacity
permits me to cut the cost effectively in half. 2 oils changes per 20K mile filter still leaves me with a 5000 mile safety margin. we have 3 ICE cars, so filter cost adds up.
The point is, that as long as the filter is able to maintain low backpressure and high flow rate, the filtering efficiency does not decrease. On the contrary, it gets better.
Occasional bypass btw is part of normal filter operation, and it is not the end of the world. For example, a cold engine in the winter, will bypass when starting up. Also, if the engine is revved at high
rpm, this is also expected to happen. I say an occasional; bypass is not a disaster, because the oil is continuously being cleaned by the filter, as it is circulated through the filter at a high flow rate.
So the difference between the clean side of the filter and the dirty side is much less dramatic than you would expect (because the oil is continuously being cleaned) .
Of course if the filter is clogged enough so that the pressure differential exceeds the bypass spring pressure, the bypass valve is open most of the time, the filter does not do its job, so the
contaminant level s build up in the oil.
For BREAK-IN, I would change after every mow, filter and oil. Do that for 5 mows. Oil is cheap.
For normal running AFTER break-in, every 25 hours or yearly, dump the oil and filter.
Got to remove the dirt, no better word is grit and metal. On a new engine, the initial oil dump will look like you poured silver glitter in the oil. Take it out in the sun and look at it.
slomo
For normal running AFTER break-in, every 25 hours or yearly, dump the oil and filter.
Got to remove the dirt, no better word is grit and metal. On a new engine, the initial oil dump will look like you poured silver glitter in the oil. Take it out in the sun and look at it.
slomo
This winter I changed the break in oil from My Wife's 2008 MTD snow blower. I bought Her new. With its Chinese 4 cycle engine with at least 100 hours on it, probably a lot more then that. It still had it's green look to it. And it has no oil filter on it. If a engine is full of oil it will run many, many hour's. Every out of warranty engine I ever got in to work on that had failed had no oil in it. The manufacturer wants that also. That's why they want that oil changed in 5 to 8 hours. To help and make sure Your engine gets through the warranty. The only reason people think kow are so great is most that own them do a bit more maintenance and keeping a eye on oil level. As they paid a bit more to have that engine on there unit. Most low end unit's are usually beat to crap and oil never checked. Or air filter serviced.
Slomo, 5 times, every hour or two of operation? Seems excessive, and I am curious where does the 5 comes from.
Why not 7 or 3? (I have a fear of even numbers).
Could you share your thinking and explain why a still working filter needs to be swapped out after
an hour or two of operation? I you make a good case for it. I may give your method a shot. Although my mower already
has 3 hours on it, so it could be already shot...
Do you expect the already trapped contaminants in the filter media are able to work loose and come out again
and contaminate the oil stream, unless you remove the filter? Afaik, they are safely embedded in there and cannot go anywhere.
Or, do you expect such a massive number of wear metal particles to be shedded that they totally clog up the filter during a single mow?
I Think of the filter as having holes/little pockets in filter media. Once a contaminant particle , metal or otherwise is captured in there, it is
held there. As long as you have enough empty "holes" left, the filter continues to do its job without imposing undue
restriction.
Why not 7 or 3? (I have a fear of even numbers).
Could you share your thinking and explain why a still working filter needs to be swapped out after
an hour or two of operation? I you make a good case for it. I may give your method a shot. Although my mower already
has 3 hours on it, so it could be already shot...
Do you expect the already trapped contaminants in the filter media are able to work loose and come out again
and contaminate the oil stream, unless you remove the filter? Afaik, they are safely embedded in there and cannot go anywhere.
Or, do you expect such a massive number of wear metal particles to be shedded that they totally clog up the filter during a single mow?
I Think of the filter as having holes/little pockets in filter media. Once a contaminant particle , metal or otherwise is captured in there, it is
held there. As long as you have enough empty "holes" left, the filter continues to do its job without imposing undue
restriction.
1. Car and motorcycle engine break-in has little in common with mower engine break-in for several reasons. Cars and motorcycles have varying power output as they run through the gears. Running over the road they run into high power requirements called "hills" or "uphill grades". They also encounter the need for down-shifting for "engine braking". The mower engine is vastly different. Once cranked and allowed to "oil up", mowers typically have their throttles set at a fairly high RPM and it stays there for hours.
2. An entire team of degreed engineers have spent several thousand man-hours testing your engine on dynos, shaker tables, and in dust, rain, and thermal chambers. That engine has been tested and studied in ways you CANNOT even begin to imagine.
The basis of your question is the belief that you can somehow know more than these engineers. That you can do better than they can. In truth, you may be smarter than the new grad that just joined the team, but there is no way you can outwit a modern design team, with members that have developed 10-20 previous engines and have a testing budget of 1/2 million dollars. Whereas you might have good experience with 1 engine, they have lived with that engine for 2 years and thoroughly tested 25+ engines to the point of destruction. And then, taken them all apart to match their computer failure projections against the real cause of failure. They have also tested all the top competitor's engines and know their weaknesses.
Certainly no harm in asking, and it's good that you want to know 'Why?". But speaking as one who's been there, the manufacturer really knows best. And if you want your engine to live a long happy life, then follow the manufacturer's suggestions.
- Yes, the oil in the engine is most probably special break-in oil. Change that oil AND the oil filter at the prescribed time Kawasaki specifies.
- Use a multi-grade oil of a weight and API spec that they recommend.
2. An entire team of degreed engineers have spent several thousand man-hours testing your engine on dynos, shaker tables, and in dust, rain, and thermal chambers. That engine has been tested and studied in ways you CANNOT even begin to imagine.
The basis of your question is the belief that you can somehow know more than these engineers. That you can do better than they can. In truth, you may be smarter than the new grad that just joined the team, but there is no way you can outwit a modern design team, with members that have developed 10-20 previous engines and have a testing budget of 1/2 million dollars. Whereas you might have good experience with 1 engine, they have lived with that engine for 2 years and thoroughly tested 25+ engines to the point of destruction. And then, taken them all apart to match their computer failure projections against the real cause of failure. They have also tested all the top competitor's engines and know their weaknesses.
Certainly no harm in asking, and it's good that you want to know 'Why?". But speaking as one who's been there, the manufacturer really knows best. And if you want your engine to live a long happy life, then follow the manufacturer's suggestions.