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break in hints?
#1
C
chainsaw69
C
chainsaw69
have a new kubota Z726X with a 24 hp kawasaki FX801V ? on it. manual says to change oil and filter after first 8 hours use. also to take it easy on the machine during break in period. back in the day, waaay back, when rebuilding engines for autos, we immediately ran new engine at about 3000 rpm for maybe a minute then new oil and filter. then again for 10 minutes, then repeat. purpose was to get all the burrs etc off the moving parts ASAP and out of the engine via oil changes. and to drive the vehicle fast/slow, fast/slow for even wear on cylinders via piston flex. i have asked several people why this no longer applies to new cars, mowers etc and the answer is always well oil is better now, or engines just don't need that break in period anymore. i think thats BS and defies the laws of logic BUT am willing to admit i'm wrong. so.....do i change the oil and filter now (2 hours on mower) or wait till the 8 hours is up? thanks
#2
cpurvis
cpurvis
You won't be gaining anything by trying to out-think Kawasaki. If their engines needed to be broken in the old fashioned way, that's what would would be in the manual.
#3
mhavanti
mhavanti
Since you've built engines, you understand they are as good as they'll ever be the first time they're fired. I have several race cars in museums around the globe and each engine was run WOT immediately after firing.
In the Hughes Machine Endurotech Engines that came out of my shop to the public. Instructions I gave were to make sure you do not baby the engines as they don't require it and neither do you. You paid good money for my shop to build an engine to do a job, go use it, it will do the job. Run it like you stole it.
Don't fall for any of these guys telling you to change the oil filter every other oil change either. Remember the most important thing about engine oil. It comes out of dirt. You filter the oil to get rid of the dirt to use it in your engines. You don't necessarily have to change the oil, you do have to change the filter. What is it you're trying to get rid of when you change the oil? Dirt ( carbon, metallic particles, fuel, etc.) so what is most important to change? Oil or filter? If the engine oil has raw fuel in it, drain it, evaporate the fuel off, run it through a filter and you can use it again. I don't suggest doing it, however, many companies have made billions doing that and reselling it to the same people that gave it away.
So, to close, change the oil and filter after 5 hours, then run the hell out of it for another 45 hours, change the oil and filter and do it again for another 50 hours.
My old saying still applies today: Run it like you stole it, if you break it, fix it. You'll be much happier with your machine if you run that Kawasaki engine WOT for mowing. Keep an ear open for the rocker arms getting loose. You'll be able to hear them. Adjust the valves, keep the air cleaner clean, oil clean, the engine will serve you well.
Good luck,
Max
In the Hughes Machine Endurotech Engines that came out of my shop to the public. Instructions I gave were to make sure you do not baby the engines as they don't require it and neither do you. You paid good money for my shop to build an engine to do a job, go use it, it will do the job. Run it like you stole it.
Don't fall for any of these guys telling you to change the oil filter every other oil change either. Remember the most important thing about engine oil. It comes out of dirt. You filter the oil to get rid of the dirt to use it in your engines. You don't necessarily have to change the oil, you do have to change the filter. What is it you're trying to get rid of when you change the oil? Dirt ( carbon, metallic particles, fuel, etc.) so what is most important to change? Oil or filter? If the engine oil has raw fuel in it, drain it, evaporate the fuel off, run it through a filter and you can use it again. I don't suggest doing it, however, many companies have made billions doing that and reselling it to the same people that gave it away.
So, to close, change the oil and filter after 5 hours, then run the hell out of it for another 45 hours, change the oil and filter and do it again for another 50 hours.
My old saying still applies today: Run it like you stole it, if you break it, fix it. You'll be much happier with your machine if you run that Kawasaki engine WOT for mowing. Keep an ear open for the rocker arms getting loose. You'll be able to hear them. Adjust the valves, keep the air cleaner clean, oil clean, the engine will serve you well.
Good luck,
Max
#4
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Running in is a process of parts wearing into each other and specifically the rings wearing into the bore and the rod wearing into the crank.
Other than that, the engine gets hot and then cools down so stretch & thermal expansion need to be taken into account.
On top of that burs & other detritis that fall off parts needs to be removed.
Thinks have changed a lot since the old days.
Metallurgy went forward leaps & bounds when you had to make engines that were faster than the enemies.
Machining also has come leaps & bounds so each & every part that is made is so close to identical you need a strong microscope to measure the differences.
So you need to change the oil and filter very early in the process to remove the crap that was left in there during manufacture.
To seal, rings need a lot of pressure to force them into the cylinder walls.
On a car or bike you do this by opening up the throttle wide then backing off several times and lots of wide open throttle, in lower gears with light loads on the engine.
However you have a governed engine so the only way to load the engine is to slow it down allowing the governor to open the throttle fully.
The best way to do this is to engage the blades, repeatidly and take light cuts for the first hour or so.
After that if it is not run in it never will be.
What you have to avoid at all costs is running no load at low speeds. This does not create sufficient pressure to force the rings into the bore so you end up with a glazed bore.
Now because you can not trust that the engine was properly assembled, it is important to check the valve lash, particularly on Kawasaki engine that use the single bolt to retain the rocker mechanism.
So on the first service, all fasteners should be checked for tightness, the valve lash reset the oil & filter changed.
After that maintenance according to the manufacturers recommendations should be fine.
It will not kill the engine or break the bank to shorten the interval but don't expect to get twice the life out of an engine because you changed the oil at 1/2 the recommended intervals.
Unless the crank runs on ball & roller bearings, the engine is a throw away and very little the owner can do will change this fact.
Nearly all mower engines are made like this because it is very cheap to make them without bearings and cheap s what the market wants.
If the market wanted good then Onan & Honda would still be making mower engines.
As a repair technician if I was to describe modern engine then it would be "almost good enough to outlast the warranty" and just barely good enough to do the job at hand.
Joe public want bigger cause bigger has to be better despite they all run at the same speed so what sells is the highest Hp : $ ratio, life span is never a consideration.
Other than that, the engine gets hot and then cools down so stretch & thermal expansion need to be taken into account.
On top of that burs & other detritis that fall off parts needs to be removed.
Thinks have changed a lot since the old days.
Metallurgy went forward leaps & bounds when you had to make engines that were faster than the enemies.
Machining also has come leaps & bounds so each & every part that is made is so close to identical you need a strong microscope to measure the differences.
So you need to change the oil and filter very early in the process to remove the crap that was left in there during manufacture.
To seal, rings need a lot of pressure to force them into the cylinder walls.
On a car or bike you do this by opening up the throttle wide then backing off several times and lots of wide open throttle, in lower gears with light loads on the engine.
However you have a governed engine so the only way to load the engine is to slow it down allowing the governor to open the throttle fully.
The best way to do this is to engage the blades, repeatidly and take light cuts for the first hour or so.
After that if it is not run in it never will be.
What you have to avoid at all costs is running no load at low speeds. This does not create sufficient pressure to force the rings into the bore so you end up with a glazed bore.
Now because you can not trust that the engine was properly assembled, it is important to check the valve lash, particularly on Kawasaki engine that use the single bolt to retain the rocker mechanism.
So on the first service, all fasteners should be checked for tightness, the valve lash reset the oil & filter changed.
After that maintenance according to the manufacturers recommendations should be fine.
It will not kill the engine or break the bank to shorten the interval but don't expect to get twice the life out of an engine because you changed the oil at 1/2 the recommended intervals.
Unless the crank runs on ball & roller bearings, the engine is a throw away and very little the owner can do will change this fact.
Nearly all mower engines are made like this because it is very cheap to make them without bearings and cheap s what the market wants.
If the market wanted good then Onan & Honda would still be making mower engines.
As a repair technician if I was to describe modern engine then it would be "almost good enough to outlast the warranty" and just barely good enough to do the job at hand.
Joe public want bigger cause bigger has to be better despite they all run at the same speed so what sells is the highest Hp : $ ratio, life span is never a consideration.
#5
C
chainsaw69
C
chainsaw69
bert & max....ur preaching to the choir i agree 100%. i bought a new toyota highlander in 2016 as we drive hour and a half each way to austin each week at 80-85 mph. i never ever let it get past the 3-5k mark before i change the oil and filter. i'm always amazed at how much flack i get from the younger (and a lot of older too) crowd that point to ads PROVING that brand x oil will last up to 100,000 miles or only has to be changed once a year. one guy even insisted that synthetic oil is so good these days it doesn't even start working until it has 5,000 miles on it. i asked the toyota salesman what "break in " oil was and how is it diff. from regular oil. he had no clue. neither do i. when did common sense and logic leave the scene?? friends of ours said recently they were watching t.v. with their grown kids during a visit and they either muted or skipped over the commercials and the kids said why do you do that how do you expect to learn anything about the product if you don't see the ads? and thats the problem. a friend said he only changes the oil when then maintence light comes on in his truck as the mfg. put a sensor in the engine block to sense dirty oil. the salesman told him so. my kids are now mostly city kids ****** but they know that if you don't know how long its been between oil changes go remove the dipstick and let it drip on ur finger and if it feels gritty at all rubbing ur fingers change the damn stuff. ITS DIRTY! common sense. anyways.......from as stated before, by having built very few 350 4 bolt mains and one 302 in the van i couldn't see how a new lawnmower engine could be diff. from a new truck/car engine. new parts with burrs on em, faster is better to remove said burrs, pistons flexing and rings sealing, etc etc adds up to one thing. frequent oil and filter changes. to me anyway, its not rocket science, its common sense.
#6
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Actually mowers are cruder ruder & far more unsofisticated than any engine built after 1954.
Break in oil is thinner than running oil and has no anti corrosion addatives in it nor mush in the way of stabiizers as it is only meant to be in there for a short time.
Basically it is a one use really cheap oil.
As for not knowing , you are exactly right we are breeding the most pig ignorant useless arrogrant generations ever to walk the planet.
They don't need to know because the phone knows all.
We stopped teaching any useful science decades ago cause it was too difficult so the kids did not get a high enough mark to go to Uni and study economics & accounting, the stuff that is really important
Break in oil is thinner than running oil and has no anti corrosion addatives in it nor mush in the way of stabiizers as it is only meant to be in there for a short time.
Basically it is a one use really cheap oil.
As for not knowing , you are exactly right we are breeding the most pig ignorant useless arrogrant generations ever to walk the planet.
They don't need to know because the phone knows all.
We stopped teaching any useful science decades ago cause it was too difficult so the kids did not get a high enough mark to go to Uni and study economics & accounting, the stuff that is really important
#7
C
chainsaw69
C
chainsaw69
now i know what break in oil is. thanks. i always figured it was regular oil with the name "break in" to make the customer feel better.
little hot stuff about 20 or so called me one day maybe 5 years ago from the next property down as her car wouldn't/turn over. i got there and the batt was dry. asked her why she isn't regularly checking the water level and the look on her face was priceless. total confusion. what? batterys have water in them are you SURE? i showed her the dry plates and she said WATER goes in there? i added water and jumped her (her battery) and she drove into town and got a totally enclosed battery. called me and said you were right! he said batterys DO have water.
daughter went to UT AUSTIN in the 90s and made a lot of friends cause she knew how to check air pressure, radiator level, change a flat etc. raised on a farm she even knew how to drive a stick shift! they were amazed. she never ever told em she only knew how to drive a stick shift if it was on a tractor.
but you are so right. if they don't read it on their phones, it doesn't exist.
little hot stuff about 20 or so called me one day maybe 5 years ago from the next property down as her car wouldn't/turn over. i got there and the batt was dry. asked her why she isn't regularly checking the water level and the look on her face was priceless. total confusion. what? batterys have water in them are you SURE? i showed her the dry plates and she said WATER goes in there? i added water and jumped her (her battery) and she drove into town and got a totally enclosed battery. called me and said you were right! he said batterys DO have water.
daughter went to UT AUSTIN in the 90s and made a lot of friends cause she knew how to check air pressure, radiator level, change a flat etc. raised on a farm she even knew how to drive a stick shift! they were amazed. she never ever told em she only knew how to drive a stick shift if it was on a tractor.
but you are so right. if they don't read it on their phones, it doesn't exist.
#8
B
Boit4852
The owner's manual for my Kawasaki engine says to change the oil every 100 hours of use and filter every 200 hours. In my opinion, that is beyond insanely stupid! These engines are subjected to extreme duty with heat and dirty environment. If you want to follow Kawasaki's maintenance schedule, that's your choice. I would never want to buy a used machine from you. I don't want to be disrespectful, but to believe that a manufacturer is 100% correct 100% of the time defies logic. It that were true, there would never be recalls.
B
Boit4852
You won't be gaining anything by trying to out-think Kawasaki. If their engines needed to be broken in the old fashioned way, that's what would would be in the manual.
The owner's manual for my Kawasaki engine says to change the oil every 100 hours of use and filter every 200 hours. In my opinion, that is beyond insanely stupid! These engines are subjected to extreme duty with heat and dirty environment. If you want to follow Kawasaki's maintenance schedule, that's your choice. I would never want to buy a used machine from you. I don't want to be disrespectful, but to believe that a manufacturer is 100% correct 100% of the time defies logic. It that were true, there would never be recalls.
#9
B
Boit4852
In the late 1990's I dated a woman who drove a '88 Mustang. She called me at work one evening upset that 'something' happened to her engine as she's driving along the interstate. After a few questions, she said that her engine stopped running and a man stopped to help her and told her it had seized. I asked her if any warning lights on her dashboard had lit. 'Yes, a red light. What letters are in the center of that light? 'T E M P'. What does T E M P mean? 'Uuuuuh...temporary'. How long had it been lit? I' dunno, a few miles'. When it lit, why did you keep driving? 'Uhhh....because it was still running'. Of course the engine was destroyed. When I questioned her about her maintenance habits, she replied that didn't know about those things. Her philosophy was that if she turned the key and the engine started, she was good to go. Her life revolved around hair, clothes, and makeup. I kicked her to the curb. Pig ignorant!!
B
Boit4852
Actually mowers are cruder ruder & far more unsofisticated than any engine built after 1954.
Break in oil is thinner than running oil and has no anti corrosion addatives in it nor mush in the way of stabiizers as it is only meant to be in there for a short time.
Basically it is a one use really cheap oil.
As for not knowing , you are exactly right we are breeding the most pig ignorant useless arrogrant generations ever to walk the planet.
They don't need to know because the phone knows all.
We stopped teaching any useful science decades ago cause it was too difficult so the kids did not get a high enough mark to go to Uni and study economics & accounting, the stuff that is really important
In the late 1990's I dated a woman who drove a '88 Mustang. She called me at work one evening upset that 'something' happened to her engine as she's driving along the interstate. After a few questions, she said that her engine stopped running and a man stopped to help her and told her it had seized. I asked her if any warning lights on her dashboard had lit. 'Yes, a red light. What letters are in the center of that light? 'T E M P'. What does T E M P mean? 'Uuuuuh...temporary'. How long had it been lit? I' dunno, a few miles'. When it lit, why did you keep driving? 'Uhhh....because it was still running'. Of course the engine was destroyed. When I questioned her about her maintenance habits, she replied that didn't know about those things. Her philosophy was that if she turned the key and the engine started, she was good to go. Her life revolved around hair, clothes, and makeup. I kicked her to the curb. Pig ignorant!!
#10
B
bertsmobile1
Try reading it again.
I says to change the oil every X hours and the filter every Y hours OR MORE OFTEN IF RUNNING IN VERY DUSTY CONDITIONS.
So 100 & 200 hours are the MAXIMUM oil change intervals, not the minimum intervals.
The intervals also change according to the size of the machine.
Push mowers usually have oil changes at 50 hour intervals, 50 hours being around an annual average mowing hours for places where it does not snow.
As for filters the only reason for replacing them is to prevent them going onto bypass.
Most could happily run a thousand hours being that many of them are identical to those used on car engines that do 9000 rpm and run a lot leaner than a mower ever will .
B
bertsmobile1
The owner's manual for my Kawasaki engine says to change the oil every 100 hours of use and filter every 200 hours. In my opinion, that is beyond insanely stupid! These engines are subjected to extreme duty with heat and dirty environment. If you want to follow Kawasaki's maintenance schedule, that's your choice. I would never want to buy a used machine from you. I don't want to be disrespectful, but to believe that a manufacturer is 100% correct 100% of the time defies logic. It that were true, there would never be recalls.
Try reading it again.
I says to change the oil every X hours and the filter every Y hours OR MORE OFTEN IF RUNNING IN VERY DUSTY CONDITIONS.
So 100 & 200 hours are the MAXIMUM oil change intervals, not the minimum intervals.
The intervals also change according to the size of the machine.
Push mowers usually have oil changes at 50 hour intervals, 50 hours being around an annual average mowing hours for places where it does not snow.
As for filters the only reason for replacing them is to prevent them going onto bypass.
Most could happily run a thousand hours being that many of them are identical to those used on car engines that do 9000 rpm and run a lot leaner than a mower ever will .
#11
cpurvis
Do as you see fit. I'm sure you're more qualified than the Kawasaki engineers who designed, built, tested the engine and wrote the manual.
cpurvis
The owner's manual for my Kawasaki engine says to change the oil every 100 hours of use and filter every 200 hours. In my opinion, that is beyond insanely stupid! These engines are subjected to extreme duty with heat and dirty environment. If you want to follow Kawasaki's maintenance schedule, that's your choice. I would never want to buy a used machine from you. I don't want to be disrespectful, but to believe that a manufacturer is 100% correct 100% of the time defies logic. It that were true, there would never be recalls.
Do as you see fit. I'm sure you're more qualified than the Kawasaki engineers who designed, built, tested the engine and wrote the manual.
#12
B
Boit4852
Since when does a mower not operate in dusty conditions? As far as only changing the filter going into bypass, that's at the extreme end of it's service. Besides, why would you want to change only the oil only to have dirty oil in the filter being mixed in with fresh? A filter is cheap insurance for preventing excessive wear, in my opinion.I'll readily admit that I am persnickety about my expensive mower's maintenance.
B
Boit4852
Try reading it again.
I says to change the oil every X hours and the filter every Y hours OR MORE OFTEN IF RUNNING IN VERY DUSTY CONDITIONS.
So 100 & 200 hours are the MAXIMUM oil change intervals, not the minimum intervals.
The intervals also change according to the size of the machine.
Push mowers usually have oil changes at 50 hour intervals, 50 hours being around an annual average mowing hours for places where it does not snow.
As for filters the only reason for replacing them is to prevent them going onto bypass.
Most could happily run a thousand hours being that many of them are identical to those used on car engines that do 9000 rpm and run a lot leaner than a mower ever will .
Since when does a mower not operate in dusty conditions? As far as only changing the filter going into bypass, that's at the extreme end of it's service. Besides, why would you want to change only the oil only to have dirty oil in the filter being mixed in with fresh? A filter is cheap insurance for preventing excessive wear, in my opinion.I'll readily admit that I am persnickety about my expensive mower's maintenance.
#13
B
Boit4852
I will. And you do the same.
B
Boit4852
Do as you see fit. I'm sure you're more qualified than the Kawasaki engineers who designed, built, tested the engine and wrote the manual.
I will. And you do the same.
#14
B
Boit4852
B
Boit4852
There is this little thing called "designed obsolescence" which simply means that sheeple will follow the manufacturer's recommended schedule with no common sense questioning. 100 hours between oil changes and 200 hours between filter changes for an engine that is subjected to extremely dirty and hot use is beneficial only for the manufacturers. They sell more units when those units wear out prematurely! Here's a shocking concept. Change your oil/filter at 35 hour intervals and see how much longer your engine lasts vs 100oil/200filter hours intervals. Not only the oil and filter, but the air filter and clean under the air shroud often to make sure the air cooled engine performs at it's maximum and longevity.If I'm wrong, shoot me.
#15
cpurvis
Here's a shocking concept, too--let's hear your opinion on this: Which one does a better job of filtering? A brand new filter or one with 50 hours on it?
cpurvis
There is this little thing called "designed obsolescence" which simply means that sheeple will follow the manufacturer's recommended schedule with no common sense questioning. 100 hours between oil changes and 200 hours between filter changes for an engine that is subjected to extremely dirty and hot use is beneficial only for the manufacturers. They sell more units when those units wear out prematurely! Here's a shocking concept. Change your oil/filter at 35 hour intervals and see how much longer your engine lasts vs 100oil/200filter hours intervals. Not only the oil and filter, but the air filter and clean under the air shroud often to make sure the air cooled engine performs at it's maximum and longevity.If I'm wrong, shoot me.
Here's a shocking concept, too--let's hear your opinion on this: Which one does a better job of filtering? A brand new filter or one with 50 hours on it?
#16
mhavanti
mhavanti
Boit,
Actually you speak common sense.
Max
Actually you speak common sense.
Max
#17
C
chainsaw69
C
chainsaw69
changed oil and filter at 5 hours. the oil drain plug seems to be made of plastic and i'm afraid to tighten it too much as to strip it. hard to get to unless i remove the back engine guard. no big deal doing that but i wanted to see if i could drain the oil w/out removing it. so since i only tighten it to "stop", and then a hair more w/a small wrench, it drips a drop of oil occassionally. not a huge concern but wonder if others have run into this??
as for oil and filter change intervals, my opinion is that i would rather over change than under change. and since its my money and time, whether needed or not i'm gonna over change. doesn't mean i'm right, but it makes feel better about the machine.
as for oil and filter change intervals, my opinion is that i would rather over change than under change. and since its my money and time, whether needed or not i'm gonna over change. doesn't mean i'm right, but it makes feel better about the machine.
#18
B
bertsmobile1
To quote a rather famous engineer,
"oil is the cheapest & easiest to replace part in you engine"
B
bertsmobile1
changed oil and filter at 5 hours. the oil drain plug seems to be made of plastic and i'm afraid to tighten it too much as to strip it. hard to get to unless i remove the back engine guard. no big deal doing that but i wanted to see if i could drain the oil w/out removing it. so since i only tighten it to "stop", and then a hair more w/a small wrench, it drips a drop of oil occassionally. not a huge concern but wonder if others have run into this??
as for oil and filter change intervals, my opinion is that i would rather over change than under change. and since its my money and time, whether needed or not i'm gonna over change. doesn't mean i'm right, but it makes feel better about the machine.
To quote a rather famous engineer,
"oil is the cheapest & easiest to replace part in you engine"
#19
S
shiftsuper175607
I have a Kubota H1400 lawn mower, bought it new about 1992
It runs great...my wife says that is hers and I can't get rid of it.
I have never changed the oil filter...just the oil.
It doesn't have one...hmmm
And it is a problem to change the filter every other time?
S
shiftsuper175607
Since when does a mower not operate in dusty conditions? As far as only changing the filter going into bypass, that's at the extreme end of it's service. Besides, why would you want to change only the oil only to have dirty oil in the filter being mixed in with fresh? A filter is cheap insurance for preventing excessive wear, in my opinion.I'll readily admit that I am persnickety about my expensive mower's maintenance.
I have a Kubota H1400 lawn mower, bought it new about 1992
It runs great...my wife says that is hers and I can't get rid of it.
I have never changed the oil filter...just the oil.
It doesn't have one...hmmm
And it is a problem to change the filter every other time?
#20
7394
You know, you did that kid a dis-service. She may never know the dangers that could burn or blind her, if she ever accidentally splashed battery ACID out of any battery on herself or in her eyes by adding water (which should be distilled) in a battery, she should have been told to wear safety glasses, & been thoroughly informed of the dangers.
As far as my Kawasaki, I did the 8 hour oil & filter change @ 5 hours. And still change oil & filter end of every mow season, which is about 25 hours, per season. I never go longer than 1 year on any of my oil changes on any of my stuff.
And I remove the blower housing @ season end as well. It's so simple to be sure, like a pit stop.
Plus Air Filter & full service, & finally a wax job.
7394
little hot stuff about 20 or so called me one day maybe 5 years ago from the next property down as her car wouldn't/turn over. i got there and the batt was dry. asked her why she isn't regularly checking the water level and the look on her face was priceless. total confusion. what? batterys have water in them are you SURE? i showed her the dry plates and she said WATER goes in there? i added water and jumped her (her battery) and she drove into town and got a totally enclosed battery. called me and said you were right! he said batterys DO have water.
You know, you did that kid a dis-service. She may never know the dangers that could burn or blind her, if she ever accidentally splashed battery ACID out of any battery on herself or in her eyes by adding water (which should be distilled) in a battery, she should have been told to wear safety glasses, & been thoroughly informed of the dangers.
As far as my Kawasaki, I did the 8 hour oil & filter change @ 5 hours. And still change oil & filter end of every mow season, which is about 25 hours, per season. I never go longer than 1 year on any of my oil changes on any of my stuff.
And I remove the blower housing @ season end as well. It's so simple to be sure, like a pit stop.
Plus Air Filter & full service, & finally a wax job.
#21
B
Boit4852
Thanks. My opinions on maintenance are just that, mere opinions based on my 65 years on Earth. I am not the end-all of knowledge and have no monopoly in it. It makes sense to me that with the harsh environment these machines operate in, frequent oil and filter changes are the way to go.
B
Boit4852
Boit,
Actually you speak common sense.
Max
Thanks. My opinions on maintenance are just that, mere opinions based on my 65 years on Earth. I am not the end-all of knowledge and have no monopoly in it. It makes sense to me that with the harsh environment these machines operate in, frequent oil and filter changes are the way to go.
#22
cpurvis
cpurvis
When asked the question, "Which filter does a better job of filtering, a brand new one or one reaching the end of its useful life?", what does common sense tell you?
#23
B
Boit4852
Did I step on your tail, dawg? If you want to leave your filter on your engine forever, go for it. Never change for all I care. Take your hostility elsewhere. I'm not going to argue the virtues of a new filter vs one at the end of its 'useful life'. You take the route you choose and I'll take mine.
B
Boit4852
When asked the question, "Which filter does a better job of filtering, a brand new one or one reaching the end of its useful life?", what does common sense tell you?
Did I step on your tail, dawg? If you want to leave your filter on your engine forever, go for it. Never change for all I care. Take your hostility elsewhere. I'm not going to argue the virtues of a new filter vs one at the end of its 'useful life'. You take the route you choose and I'll take mine.
#24
B
bertsmobile1
Well just to be pedantic, an old filter will filter better than a new one
But a new one will not go onto bypass or reduce the volume of oil flowing.:confused2:
B
bertsmobile1
When asked the question, "Which filter does a better job of filtering, a brand new one or one reaching the end of its useful life?", what does common sense tell you?
Well just to be pedantic, an old filter will filter better than a new one
But a new one will not go onto bypass or reduce the volume of oil flowing.:confused2:
#25
cpurvis
No, you didn't step on my tail. Did I step on yours? If so, my apologies.
What I did was ask a simple question that you apparently chose not answer and stretched it into "never changing a filter." I have NEVER advocated "never" changing a filter. All I've ever said is that changing more often than the interval specified by the engine manufacturer is counter productive--a waste of time and money and actually does a worse job of filtering than following the book.
bert answered the question in the first line of his post--A DIRTY filter does a better job of filtering than a brand new one. Let that soak in. The DIRTIEST air your engine will ever see is with a BRAND NEW, clean filter. Same thing also applies to oil filters. As a filter traps particles, it will trap smaller and smaller particles that it could not trap when new.
What about a filter that is so dirty it has gone into 'bypass'? Bypass oil filters are used in applications where less damage will occur if the filter lets unfiltered oil 'bypass' the filter and continue to lubricate and cool the engine rather than reduce or stop flow. Dirty oil is better than no oil at all but if you follow the manufacturer's recommendations, you'll never have to worry about an oil filter going into bypass.
I think where a lot of confusion and the apparent conflict with 'common sense' comes from is the terminology used. A 'new' or 'clean' filter just sounds like it does a better job of filtering oil or air than a 'used' or 'dirty' filter. Subconsciously, maybe we think that the contaminants that are on or in a used filter must get transferred to the oil or air flowing through the filter? They don't, but "common sense" tells us that they do.
These aren't conclusions I reached by myself. If you ever get to talk to a filter manufacturer field representative, they'll tell you the same thing; that's how I learned.
cpurvis
Did I step on your tail, dawg? If you want to leave your filter on your engine forever, go for it. Never change for all I care. Take your hostility elsewhere. I'm not going to argue the virtues of a new filter vs one at the end of its 'useful life'. You take the route you choose and I'll take mine.
No, you didn't step on my tail. Did I step on yours? If so, my apologies.
What I did was ask a simple question that you apparently chose not answer and stretched it into "never changing a filter." I have NEVER advocated "never" changing a filter. All I've ever said is that changing more often than the interval specified by the engine manufacturer is counter productive--a waste of time and money and actually does a worse job of filtering than following the book.
bert answered the question in the first line of his post--A DIRTY filter does a better job of filtering than a brand new one. Let that soak in. The DIRTIEST air your engine will ever see is with a BRAND NEW, clean filter. Same thing also applies to oil filters. As a filter traps particles, it will trap smaller and smaller particles that it could not trap when new.
What about a filter that is so dirty it has gone into 'bypass'? Bypass oil filters are used in applications where less damage will occur if the filter lets unfiltered oil 'bypass' the filter and continue to lubricate and cool the engine rather than reduce or stop flow. Dirty oil is better than no oil at all but if you follow the manufacturer's recommendations, you'll never have to worry about an oil filter going into bypass.
I think where a lot of confusion and the apparent conflict with 'common sense' comes from is the terminology used. A 'new' or 'clean' filter just sounds like it does a better job of filtering oil or air than a 'used' or 'dirty' filter. Subconsciously, maybe we think that the contaminants that are on or in a used filter must get transferred to the oil or air flowing through the filter? They don't, but "common sense" tells us that they do.
These aren't conclusions I reached by myself. If you ever get to talk to a filter manufacturer field representative, they'll tell you the same thing; that's how I learned.
#26
tom3
tom3
I'll throw a log on this fire. I always figured if an oil filter is catching any metal particles that would damage an engine, that engine is already too far gone. But since there is one on there might as well change it every other change. Just don't see how they can charge 8 to 10 bucks for that little imported filter. But for new engine break in, even with today's manf. techniques, I'd change that oil pretty quick, then run it normally. Well maintained engine will outlast a couple hydros.
#27
B
bertsmobile1
Over my 51 years of working in a full time job, I have had the priviledge of working in a massive range of industries and every one of them was a real eye opener.
Nothing is ever as simple as it seams, particularly when it comes to what some thing costs, be it a basket ball hoop and a bit of tarmac in a school playground through to a 200 ton autoclave in a bauxite plant.
The bulk of my work life was in transport either as a contractor, company owner or warehouse manager.
Now for your filter.
They are bought in the thousands because the filter factory might only make that particular filter once every years for high volume ones to every 2 years for others.
Filter factories will usually only have a few production lines so can only make a dozen or so different one at at any time and there are thousands of filters.
The machines have to work flat chat with the minimum of changeover or set up time or the factory runs at a loss.
Thus Briggs have already paid for them long before you by them.
If you know people in retail you will know this is the opposite of what usually happens, retailers generally stock what they can sell before they have to pay their supplier.
In warehousing you really see it, in the first week of a month, the pickers run 2 x 12 hour shifts , every delivery van leaves totally full and you have to call in outside drivers to take up the slack.
On the last week of the month, the pickers are playing fork lift basket ball, the floor have been swept so many times it is shinny & the delivery drivers barely have enough freight on board to cover the floor.
This is because the retailers pay monthly, a month in arrears from the end of the month.
So recieved on the first day of the month then they have all that month & the following one to pay for the goods by which time they hope you have bought it before they have to pay for it.
In my warehouses a pallet space was worth anything from $ 20 to $ 75 a week depending upon the size & throughput of the warehouse.
Briggs would have anything from 1 to 50 ( numbers pulled from the blue ) pallets of each of their oil filters, accruing warehousing costs an a daily basis, sitting on the floor.
These are at manufacturing cost, plus freight to the warehouse, as freight companies usually get paid at drop off, or they don't drop the freight.
The filters they sell to retailers early in the piece make a really good profit but by the time they get to the reorder stock level, those filters are being sold at a loss.
And that does not include oppertunity cost losses or overdraught interest those filters have incurred or interest that could have been made on the cost price of the filters lost.
Also that does not include the cost of getting someone to pull 1 filter from the pick face to add to my order, invoicing me, loading it onto a van and delivering it to my workshop.
Thus a filter that might have cost Briggs $ 2 ex filter factory door ends up costing you $ 10 in a shop
People who know it was sold to Briggs for $2 will get onto face book and carry on claiming rip off but in reality they are barely covering costs.
When it gets to the point that keeping the filters in stock is costing a lot more than they are selling them for, Briggs do a bulk order special to get rid of the old stock before they end up costing double what they are selling them for.
This is one reason why Chinese mowers are so cheap, no warehouses full of spare parts costing more money to store & deliver than the retail price customers pay for them.
B
bertsmobile1
I'll throw a log on this fire. I always figured if an oil filter is catching any metal particles that would damage an engine, that engine is already too far gone. But since there is one on there might as well change it every other change. Just don't see how they can charge 8 to 10 bucks for that little imported filter. But for new engine break in, even with today's manf. techniques, I'd change that oil pretty quick, then run it normally. Well maintained engine will outlast a couple hydros.
Over my 51 years of working in a full time job, I have had the priviledge of working in a massive range of industries and every one of them was a real eye opener.
Nothing is ever as simple as it seams, particularly when it comes to what some thing costs, be it a basket ball hoop and a bit of tarmac in a school playground through to a 200 ton autoclave in a bauxite plant.
The bulk of my work life was in transport either as a contractor, company owner or warehouse manager.
Now for your filter.
They are bought in the thousands because the filter factory might only make that particular filter once every years for high volume ones to every 2 years for others.
Filter factories will usually only have a few production lines so can only make a dozen or so different one at at any time and there are thousands of filters.
The machines have to work flat chat with the minimum of changeover or set up time or the factory runs at a loss.
Thus Briggs have already paid for them long before you by them.
If you know people in retail you will know this is the opposite of what usually happens, retailers generally stock what they can sell before they have to pay their supplier.
In warehousing you really see it, in the first week of a month, the pickers run 2 x 12 hour shifts , every delivery van leaves totally full and you have to call in outside drivers to take up the slack.
On the last week of the month, the pickers are playing fork lift basket ball, the floor have been swept so many times it is shinny & the delivery drivers barely have enough freight on board to cover the floor.
This is because the retailers pay monthly, a month in arrears from the end of the month.
So recieved on the first day of the month then they have all that month & the following one to pay for the goods by which time they hope you have bought it before they have to pay for it.
In my warehouses a pallet space was worth anything from $ 20 to $ 75 a week depending upon the size & throughput of the warehouse.
Briggs would have anything from 1 to 50 ( numbers pulled from the blue ) pallets of each of their oil filters, accruing warehousing costs an a daily basis, sitting on the floor.
These are at manufacturing cost, plus freight to the warehouse, as freight companies usually get paid at drop off, or they don't drop the freight.
The filters they sell to retailers early in the piece make a really good profit but by the time they get to the reorder stock level, those filters are being sold at a loss.
And that does not include oppertunity cost losses or overdraught interest those filters have incurred or interest that could have been made on the cost price of the filters lost.
Also that does not include the cost of getting someone to pull 1 filter from the pick face to add to my order, invoicing me, loading it onto a van and delivering it to my workshop.
Thus a filter that might have cost Briggs $ 2 ex filter factory door ends up costing you $ 10 in a shop
People who know it was sold to Briggs for $2 will get onto face book and carry on claiming rip off but in reality they are barely covering costs.
When it gets to the point that keeping the filters in stock is costing a lot more than they are selling them for, Briggs do a bulk order special to get rid of the old stock before they end up costing double what they are selling them for.
This is one reason why Chinese mowers are so cheap, no warehouses full of spare parts costing more money to store & deliver than the retail price customers pay for them.
#28
mhavanti
mhavanti
Bert,
You've said a mouth full and you are absolutely correct about costs. On the manufacturer and distribution end, we deal in miniscule percentages unlike wholesalers and retailers.
Only thing I'm going back to the front and inject once again. A new filter does filter better than an old one. As I said, Hughes Wholesale, one of the nine businesses we owned was a part of Flo Pro Industrial Filtration that manufactured Briggs, Kohler and every filter using companies filters out there. At times, would have Ford contract, GM contract, Chrysler, Detroit, Cummins, Perkins, Kubota, Harley, Mack, Continental as well as hundreds upon hundreds of cars, trucks, motorcycles, mowers, industrial engines of air (fuel) cooled, water cooled engines used on air, land and sea.
My point is, only reason to use a new filter is because the engine needs to continue having cleanest oil possible and not one of us here actually believes a dirty or anything with time on it is doing a better job than a new one. If this sounds a bit demonstrative, perhaps it is. Change your oil, change your filter. If you are really having to hammer a motor commercially during the week and don't have time to change the oil and it is past the schedule. Change the filter, top up the oil and move along until you can give the unit a break.
Cost of the filter is minimal compared to the engine.
Sorry about stepping back in. Y'all can take it from here.
Max
You've said a mouth full and you are absolutely correct about costs. On the manufacturer and distribution end, we deal in miniscule percentages unlike wholesalers and retailers.
Only thing I'm going back to the front and inject once again. A new filter does filter better than an old one. As I said, Hughes Wholesale, one of the nine businesses we owned was a part of Flo Pro Industrial Filtration that manufactured Briggs, Kohler and every filter using companies filters out there. At times, would have Ford contract, GM contract, Chrysler, Detroit, Cummins, Perkins, Kubota, Harley, Mack, Continental as well as hundreds upon hundreds of cars, trucks, motorcycles, mowers, industrial engines of air (fuel) cooled, water cooled engines used on air, land and sea.
My point is, only reason to use a new filter is because the engine needs to continue having cleanest oil possible and not one of us here actually believes a dirty or anything with time on it is doing a better job than a new one. If this sounds a bit demonstrative, perhaps it is. Change your oil, change your filter. If you are really having to hammer a motor commercially during the week and don't have time to change the oil and it is past the schedule. Change the filter, top up the oil and move along until you can give the unit a break.
Cost of the filter is minimal compared to the engine.
Sorry about stepping back in. Y'all can take it from here.
Max
#29
B
bertsmobile1
No problems Max and no arguements about changing filters & oil, cheapest part & easiest to replace.
Just being pedantic as the debris on the outside of the filter medium, makes the filter thicker and filter out finner particles so it FILTERS better but it FLOWS worse.
This is how filter housings with replacement indicators work either by measuring a reduced flow through or pressure on the flitered side.
B
bertsmobile1
Bert,
You've said a mouth full and you are absolutely correct about costs. On the manufacturer and distribution end, we deal in miniscule percentages unlike wholesalers and retailers.
Only thing I'm going back to the front and inject once again. A new filter does filter better than an old one. As I said, Hughes Wholesale, one of the nine businesses we owned was a part of Flo Pro Industrial Filtration that manufactured Briggs, Kohler and every filter using companies filters out there. At times, would have Ford contract, GM contract, Chrysler, Detroit, Cummins, Perkins, Kubota, Harley, Mack, Continental as well as hundreds upon hundreds of cars, trucks, motorcycles, mowers, industrial engines of air (fuel) cooled, water cooled engines used on air, land and sea.
My point is, only reason to use a new filter is because the engine needs to continue having cleanest oil possible and not one of us here actually believes a dirty or anything with time on it is doing a better job than a new one. If this sounds a bit demonstrative, perhaps it is. Change your oil, change your filter. If you are really having to hammer a motor commercially during the week and don't have time to change the oil and it is past the schedule. Change the filter, top up the oil and move along until you can give the unit a break.
Cost of the filter is minimal compared to the engine.
Sorry about stepping back in. Y'all can take it from here.
Max
No problems Max and no arguements about changing filters & oil, cheapest part & easiest to replace.
Just being pedantic as the debris on the outside of the filter medium, makes the filter thicker and filter out finner particles so it FILTERS better but it FLOWS worse.
This is how filter housings with replacement indicators work either by measuring a reduced flow through or pressure on the flitered side.
#30
mhavanti
mhavanti
By the way Bert, since you and I have been in this business, something from the manufacturing end we get to be involved in are the claims against the filter manufacturers from all kinds of claims many of which some of the folks may have not had much on the ball. Yet, we have to take every claim seriously as the one we don't can end up costing up a years production run on a line.
We've had claims of bearing failure, claims of washed down cylinders, too lean, too, too, too, too and more of the same. One thing you want to do is go the extra mile to check out each claim. Usually what we'd find and about the only thing we ever found was oil contamination from fuel due to not changing the air filters, thereby causing extremely rich fuel operations. By the way, just one example, we would never get finished discussing all the examples we investigated. If we ever found a problem in any of the brands of filters we manufactured, we wanted it taken care of day before yesterday or even better, last month.
Again, the only place oil is wasted is on the ground. Another way to waste oil is not changing the filters often.
God love you all my friends,
Max
We've had claims of bearing failure, claims of washed down cylinders, too lean, too, too, too, too and more of the same. One thing you want to do is go the extra mile to check out each claim. Usually what we'd find and about the only thing we ever found was oil contamination from fuel due to not changing the air filters, thereby causing extremely rich fuel operations. By the way, just one example, we would never get finished discussing all the examples we investigated. If we ever found a problem in any of the brands of filters we manufactured, we wanted it taken care of day before yesterday or even better, last month.
Again, the only place oil is wasted is on the ground. Another way to waste oil is not changing the filters often.
God love you all my friends,
Max
#31
cpurvis
How could it?
cpurvis
Bert,
A new filter does filter better than an old one.
How could it?
#32
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Again Max, no arguements
I sat on the end of an assembly machine on the night shift during my undergraduate years.
Down here owners have a severe mental problem and seem to think the way to become profitable is to pay the person operating the 40 year old obsolete machine less.
The idea of replacing 6 machines & operators plus 2 support staff with a single machine that will make more filters per hour with one operator than the 6 can make in a day was way beyond their mental capacity .
This is another reason why Chinese parts are so cheap.
Their factory owners know that cheap labour is just a transition period and have been installing more fully automatic high volume machines than the rest of the world combined and multiplied by 5.
India is not quite there yet and perhaps the legacy of the British Imperial thinking is holding them back.
Last year China commissioned over 40 aluminium foundries, fully automated, not a person on the shop floor so if they can keep the volumes up the final product ( raw casting ) will be around 2 to 3 times the metal cost.
Down here it is 14 times and the USA typically is 6 to 10 times.
These foundries can then run virgin metal and make casting for less than USA foundries running 100% scrap, yet industry & politicans continually blame China for the fact local industry is no longer competative.
Not withstanding that the Chinese government is holding the Yuan at a much lower dollar value than it should be.
I sat on the end of an assembly machine on the night shift during my undergraduate years.
Down here owners have a severe mental problem and seem to think the way to become profitable is to pay the person operating the 40 year old obsolete machine less.
The idea of replacing 6 machines & operators plus 2 support staff with a single machine that will make more filters per hour with one operator than the 6 can make in a day was way beyond their mental capacity .
This is another reason why Chinese parts are so cheap.
Their factory owners know that cheap labour is just a transition period and have been installing more fully automatic high volume machines than the rest of the world combined and multiplied by 5.
India is not quite there yet and perhaps the legacy of the British Imperial thinking is holding them back.
Last year China commissioned over 40 aluminium foundries, fully automated, not a person on the shop floor so if they can keep the volumes up the final product ( raw casting ) will be around 2 to 3 times the metal cost.
Down here it is 14 times and the USA typically is 6 to 10 times.
These foundries can then run virgin metal and make casting for less than USA foundries running 100% scrap, yet industry & politicans continually blame China for the fact local industry is no longer competative.
Not withstanding that the Chinese government is holding the Yuan at a much lower dollar value than it should be.
#33
B
bertsmobile1
Because the debris on the outside of the filter medium is also filtering the oil and the holes between the debris on the outside end up being smaller than the holes in the filter medium in the first place.
SO it ends up filtering finer particulates out of the oil.
Eventually it gets so thick that the oil can not get through at all so the filter goes into bypass and does not filter at all.
If the filter does not have a bypass then the engine suffers a low oil failure or the oil pump gets overloaded and starts passing excessive oil down the sides of the rotor or gears, reducing its pressure capacity.
Because most filters have a bypass people keep on using them because the oil is flowing OK and they have no understanding about how things work.
B
bertsmobile1
How could it?
Because the debris on the outside of the filter medium is also filtering the oil and the holes between the debris on the outside end up being smaller than the holes in the filter medium in the first place.
SO it ends up filtering finer particulates out of the oil.
Eventually it gets so thick that the oil can not get through at all so the filter goes into bypass and does not filter at all.
If the filter does not have a bypass then the engine suffers a low oil failure or the oil pump gets overloaded and starts passing excessive oil down the sides of the rotor or gears, reducing its pressure capacity.
Because most filters have a bypass people keep on using them because the oil is flowing OK and they have no understanding about how things work.
#34
B
Boit4852
Just for my info and clarity, do you work in a plant that manufactures filters for many brands? If so, does each brand have their own specifications that you follow? The reason I ask is that I read an oil filter comparison test by brand a few years ago. I remember that Fram was hit the hardest for quality. That got me to thinking about each brand's manufacturing factory. I asked myself if each brand had their own plant or did they contract it out to a generic plant that makes that particular brand's filter to their own design and specs. I worked in manufacturing industry(not filters) for 30 years and we sold our product to 2nd and 3rd party companies. By contract, 3rd party companies were not allowed to use our name brand as the source. No where on their label was there a mention of my company.
B
Boit4852
By the way Bert, since you and I have been in this business, something from the manufacturing end we get to be involved in are the claims against the filter manufacturers from all kinds of claims many of which some of the folks may have not had much on the ball. Yet, we have to take every claim seriously as the one we don't can end up costing up a years production run on a line.
We've had claims of bearing failure, claims of washed down cylinders, too lean, too, too, too, too and more of the same. One thing you want to do is go the extra mile to check out each claim. Usually what we'd find and about the only thing we ever found was oil contamination from fuel due to not changing the air filters, thereby causing extremely rich fuel operations. By the way, just one example, we would never get finished discussing all the examples we investigated. If we ever found a problem in any of the brands of filters we manufactured, we wanted it taken care of day before yesterday or even better, last month.
Again, the only place oil is wasted is on the ground. Another way to waste oil is not changing the filters often.
God love you all my friends,
Max
Just for my info and clarity, do you work in a plant that manufactures filters for many brands? If so, does each brand have their own specifications that you follow? The reason I ask is that I read an oil filter comparison test by brand a few years ago. I remember that Fram was hit the hardest for quality. That got me to thinking about each brand's manufacturing factory. I asked myself if each brand had their own plant or did they contract it out to a generic plant that makes that particular brand's filter to their own design and specs. I worked in manufacturing industry(not filters) for 30 years and we sold our product to 2nd and 3rd party companies. By contract, 3rd party companies were not allowed to use our name brand as the source. No where on their label was there a mention of my company.
#35
cpurvis
bert, that's the position that both you and I understand and support.
Somebody made this statement:
cpurvis
Because the debris on the outside of the filter medium is also filtering the oil and the holes between the debris on the outside end up being smaller than the holes in the filter medium in the first place.
SO it ends up filtering finer particulates out of the oil.
Eventually it gets so thick that the oil can not get through at all so the filter goes into bypass and does not filter at all.
If the filter does not have a bypass then the engine suffers a low oil failure or the oil pump gets overloaded and starts passing excessive oil down the sides of the rotor or gears, reducing its pressure capacity.
Because most filters have a bypass people keep on using them because the oil is flowing OK and they have no understanding about how things work.
bert, that's the position that both you and I understand and support.
Somebody made this statement:
That's what I was asking to be explained how that could be true.A new filter does filter better than an old one.
#36
C
coder
C
coder
An used filter indeed does a better job at filtration than a brand new one, as long as the typical pressure differential across the filter does not exceed the bypass valve opening pressure.
Some filter makers publish the dirt holding capacity of the filter, and they even have different capacity filter variants. As the filter is getting clogged, the flow rate and back-pressure ( the pressure differential
between the clean side and the dirty side) gradually increases. The key insight here is that this backpressure will be within acceptable limits (less than the bypass pressure) as long as the filter does not exceed
its dirt holding capacity. This capacity is what allows filter makers to rate filters for different OCI ( usually given in miles). This capacity differentiator is what makes it passible for a manufacturer to rate a high end
synthetic media filter for 20,000 miles. A high capacity filter, therefore can be surely left on the vehicle across 2 oil changes. For example, on one of my vehicles the OCI is 7500 miles. Which I do follow.
But I am using a high capacity filter which is 20,000 mile rated. So at 7500 miles that filter is still perfectly fine, with good flow rate, and the backpressure well under the bypass limit.
So I skip the filter change every other time. The logic is that I use a more expensive, high capacity filter with excellent filtering properties (99% efficiency at > 20 micron particle size) and the high capacity
permits me to cut the cost effectively in half. 2 oils changes per 20K mile filter still leaves me with a 5000 mile safety margin. we have 3 ICE cars, so filter cost adds up.
The point is, that as long as the filter is able to maintain low backpressure and high flow rate, the filtering efficiency does not decrease. On the contrary, it gets better.
Occasional bypass btw is part of normal filter operation, and it is not the end of the world. For example, a cold engine in the winter, will bypass when starting up. Also, if the engine is revved at high
rpm, this is also expected to happen. I say an occasional; bypass is not a disaster, because the oil is continuously being cleaned by the filter, as it is circulated through the filter at a high flow rate.
So the difference between the clean side of the filter and the dirty side is much less dramatic than you would expect (because the oil is continuously being cleaned) .
Of course if the filter is clogged enough so that the pressure differential exceeds the bypass spring pressure, the bypass valve is open most of the time, the filter does not do its job, so the
contaminant level s build up in the oil.
Some filter makers publish the dirt holding capacity of the filter, and they even have different capacity filter variants. As the filter is getting clogged, the flow rate and back-pressure ( the pressure differential
between the clean side and the dirty side) gradually increases. The key insight here is that this backpressure will be within acceptable limits (less than the bypass pressure) as long as the filter does not exceed
its dirt holding capacity. This capacity is what allows filter makers to rate filters for different OCI ( usually given in miles). This capacity differentiator is what makes it passible for a manufacturer to rate a high end
synthetic media filter for 20,000 miles. A high capacity filter, therefore can be surely left on the vehicle across 2 oil changes. For example, on one of my vehicles the OCI is 7500 miles. Which I do follow.
But I am using a high capacity filter which is 20,000 mile rated. So at 7500 miles that filter is still perfectly fine, with good flow rate, and the backpressure well under the bypass limit.
So I skip the filter change every other time. The logic is that I use a more expensive, high capacity filter with excellent filtering properties (99% efficiency at > 20 micron particle size) and the high capacity
permits me to cut the cost effectively in half. 2 oils changes per 20K mile filter still leaves me with a 5000 mile safety margin. we have 3 ICE cars, so filter cost adds up.
The point is, that as long as the filter is able to maintain low backpressure and high flow rate, the filtering efficiency does not decrease. On the contrary, it gets better.
Occasional bypass btw is part of normal filter operation, and it is not the end of the world. For example, a cold engine in the winter, will bypass when starting up. Also, if the engine is revved at high
rpm, this is also expected to happen. I say an occasional; bypass is not a disaster, because the oil is continuously being cleaned by the filter, as it is circulated through the filter at a high flow rate.
So the difference between the clean side of the filter and the dirty side is much less dramatic than you would expect (because the oil is continuously being cleaned) .
Of course if the filter is clogged enough so that the pressure differential exceeds the bypass spring pressure, the bypass valve is open most of the time, the filter does not do its job, so the
contaminant level s build up in the oil.
#37
S
slomo
S
slomo
For BREAK-IN, I would change after every mow, filter and oil. Do that for 5 mows. Oil is cheap.
For normal running AFTER break-in, every 25 hours or yearly, dump the oil and filter.
Got to remove the dirt, no better word is grit and metal. On a new engine, the initial oil dump will look like you poured silver glitter in the oil. Take it out in the sun and look at it.
slomo
For normal running AFTER break-in, every 25 hours or yearly, dump the oil and filter.
Got to remove the dirt, no better word is grit and metal. On a new engine, the initial oil dump will look like you poured silver glitter in the oil. Take it out in the sun and look at it.
slomo
#38
F
fixit1ddh
F
fixit1ddh
This winter I changed the break in oil from My Wife's 2008 MTD snow blower. I bought Her new. With its Chinese 4 cycle engine with at least 100 hours on it, probably a lot more then that. It still had it's green look to it. And it has no oil filter on it. If a engine is full of oil it will run many, many hour's. Every out of warranty engine I ever got in to work on that had failed had no oil in it. The manufacturer wants that also. That's why they want that oil changed in 5 to 8 hours. To help and make sure Your engine gets through the warranty. The only reason people think kow are so great is most that own them do a bit more maintenance and keeping a eye on oil level. As they paid a bit more to have that engine on there unit. Most low end unit's are usually beat to crap and oil never checked. Or air filter serviced.
#39
C
coder
C
coder
Slomo, 5 times, every hour or two of operation? Seems excessive, and I am curious where does the 5 comes from.
Why not 7 or 3? (I have a fear of even numbers).
Could you share your thinking and explain why a still working filter needs to be swapped out after
an hour or two of operation? I you make a good case for it. I may give your method a shot. Although my mower already
has 3 hours on it, so it could be already shot...
Do you expect the already trapped contaminants in the filter media are able to work loose and come out again
and contaminate the oil stream, unless you remove the filter? Afaik, they are safely embedded in there and cannot go anywhere.
Or, do you expect such a massive number of wear metal particles to be shedded that they totally clog up the filter during a single mow?
I Think of the filter as having holes/little pockets in filter media. Once a contaminant particle , metal or otherwise is captured in there, it is
held there. As long as you have enough empty "holes" left, the filter continues to do its job without imposing undue
restriction.
Why not 7 or 3? (I have a fear of even numbers).
Could you share your thinking and explain why a still working filter needs to be swapped out after
an hour or two of operation? I you make a good case for it. I may give your method a shot. Although my mower already
has 3 hours on it, so it could be already shot...
Do you expect the already trapped contaminants in the filter media are able to work loose and come out again
and contaminate the oil stream, unless you remove the filter? Afaik, they are safely embedded in there and cannot go anywhere.
Or, do you expect such a massive number of wear metal particles to be shedded that they totally clog up the filter during a single mow?
I Think of the filter as having holes/little pockets in filter media. Once a contaminant particle , metal or otherwise is captured in there, it is
held there. As long as you have enough empty "holes" left, the filter continues to do its job without imposing undue
restriction.
#40
B
Born2Mow
B
Born2Mow
1. Car and motorcycle engine break-in has little in common with mower engine break-in for several reasons. Cars and motorcycles have varying power output as they run through the gears. Running over the road they run into high power requirements called "hills" or "uphill grades". They also encounter the need for down-shifting for "engine braking". The mower engine is vastly different. Once cranked and allowed to "oil up", mowers typically have their throttles set at a fairly high RPM and it stays there for hours.
2. An entire team of degreed engineers have spent several thousand man-hours testing your engine on dynos, shaker tables, and in dust, rain, and thermal chambers. That engine has been tested and studied in ways you CANNOT even begin to imagine.
The basis of your question is the belief that you can somehow know more than these engineers. That you can do better than they can. In truth, you may be smarter than the new grad that just joined the team, but there is no way you can outwit a modern design team, with members that have developed 10-20 previous engines and have a testing budget of 1/2 million dollars. Whereas you might have good experience with 1 engine, they have lived with that engine for 2 years and thoroughly tested 25+ engines to the point of destruction. And then, taken them all apart to match their computer failure projections against the real cause of failure. They have also tested all the top competitor's engines and know their weaknesses.
Certainly no harm in asking, and it's good that you want to know 'Why?". But speaking as one who's been there, the manufacturer really knows best. And if you want your engine to live a long happy life, then follow the manufacturer's suggestions.
- Yes, the oil in the engine is most probably special break-in oil. Change that oil AND the oil filter at the prescribed time Kawasaki specifies.
- Use a multi-grade oil of a weight and API spec that they recommend.
2. An entire team of degreed engineers have spent several thousand man-hours testing your engine on dynos, shaker tables, and in dust, rain, and thermal chambers. That engine has been tested and studied in ways you CANNOT even begin to imagine.
The basis of your question is the belief that you can somehow know more than these engineers. That you can do better than they can. In truth, you may be smarter than the new grad that just joined the team, but there is no way you can outwit a modern design team, with members that have developed 10-20 previous engines and have a testing budget of 1/2 million dollars. Whereas you might have good experience with 1 engine, they have lived with that engine for 2 years and thoroughly tested 25+ engines to the point of destruction. And then, taken them all apart to match their computer failure projections against the real cause of failure. They have also tested all the top competitor's engines and know their weaknesses.
Certainly no harm in asking, and it's good that you want to know 'Why?". But speaking as one who's been there, the manufacturer really knows best. And if you want your engine to live a long happy life, then follow the manufacturer's suggestions.
#41
cpurvis
You are not doing your engine any favors by changing your oil any more frequently than the manufacturer recommends, especially during break-in.
cpurvis
A filter not only continues to do its job, it does a better job of filtering as it catches debris. With the exception of a clogged, bypassing oil filter, a new filter is actually doing the poorest job of filtering; the very best job of filtering it can do will be at the end of its life.Slomo, 5 times, every hour or two of operation? Seems excessive, and I am curious where does the 5 comes from.
Why not 7 or 3? (I have a fear of even numbers).
Could you share your thinking and explain why a still working filter needs to be swapped out after
an hour or two of operation? I you make a good case for it. I may give your method a shot. Although my mower already
has 3 hours on it, so it could be already shot...
Do you expect the already trapped contaminants in the filter media are able to work loose and come out again
and contaminate the oil stream, unless you remove the filter? Afaik, they are safely embedded in there and cannot go anywhere.
Or, do you expect such a massive number of wear metal particles to be shedded that they totally clog up the filter during a single mow?
I Think of the filter as having holes/little pockets in filter media. Once a contaminant particle , metal or otherwise is captured in there, it is
held there. As long as you have enough empty "holes" left, the filter continues to do its job without imposing undue
restriction.
You are not doing your engine any favors by changing your oil any more frequently than the manufacturer recommends, especially during break-in.
#42
C
coder
C
coder
Born2Mow, it is not clear what question you refer to when you say "The basis of your question". Would you mind clarifying?
If you refer to any Questions I asked of Slomo above, I was practicing the Socratic method.
I do not doubt that the product design and engineering team knows a lot more about the product than the layman.
But they do not necessarily share their wisdom with us, esp. the rationale why they recommend what they do.
If they decide to disclose some apparently useful information, such as a spark plug torque spec I am all over that,
and I am thankful.
Unfortunately, the motivation of those who tell us what products we should use, is often tainted by profit motive.
For example if they happen to make or rebadge an oil filter, lubricant, air filter, etc. they would naturally suggest that we should use
their products. But, color me cynical, could there be a profit motive here?
Our interests are not necessarily aligned. I want my cars, lawn equipment etc. to last until I decide that I am done with them, which is typically a long time.
Manufacturers are more into planned obsolescence. The cult of "good enough", rushing me into throwing away the old, and buying something new.
A Korean auto maker who shall remain nameless, is famous for recommending their OEM filters for their cars, while refusing to disclose the filtering efficiency
and dirt holding capacity of these filters. IMO there are better 3rd party filters available, with published specs
(Mobil-1, Fram UG/XG Synthetic media filters, to name a few). If I blindly "trust the engineers who know best", I would miss out
on the goodness of the aftermarket filters.
There is no substitute for doing our own research and critical thinking. I will gladly bow to rational argument or useful data,
but blind faith? I seem to have some BS-sense, which sometimes get tripped. A little voice that says "this does not make any sense to me".
In those cases, I tend to question, engage in some research, seek the opinion of the community.
If you refer to any Questions I asked of Slomo above, I was practicing the Socratic method.
I do not doubt that the product design and engineering team knows a lot more about the product than the layman.
But they do not necessarily share their wisdom with us, esp. the rationale why they recommend what they do.
If they decide to disclose some apparently useful information, such as a spark plug torque spec I am all over that,
and I am thankful.
Unfortunately, the motivation of those who tell us what products we should use, is often tainted by profit motive.
For example if they happen to make or rebadge an oil filter, lubricant, air filter, etc. they would naturally suggest that we should use
their products. But, color me cynical, could there be a profit motive here?
Our interests are not necessarily aligned. I want my cars, lawn equipment etc. to last until I decide that I am done with them, which is typically a long time.
Manufacturers are more into planned obsolescence. The cult of "good enough", rushing me into throwing away the old, and buying something new.
A Korean auto maker who shall remain nameless, is famous for recommending their OEM filters for their cars, while refusing to disclose the filtering efficiency
and dirt holding capacity of these filters. IMO there are better 3rd party filters available, with published specs
(Mobil-1, Fram UG/XG Synthetic media filters, to name a few). If I blindly "trust the engineers who know best", I would miss out
on the goodness of the aftermarket filters.
There is no substitute for doing our own research and critical thinking. I will gladly bow to rational argument or useful data,
but blind faith? I seem to have some BS-sense, which sometimes get tripped. A little voice that says "this does not make any sense to me".
In those cases, I tend to question, engage in some research, seek the opinion of the community.
#43
C
coder
C
coder
Well put, Cpurvis, thanks.
I do follow the manufacturer's suggestions, unless they suggest something that contradicts common sense, (or when I see an apparent ulterior motive).
I respectfully put forward that I do not expect manufacturers to be interested in prolonging their product's useful life much past the warranty period.
And that is a pretty low bar. I think we can do better.
If I was merely shooting for lasting through the warranty, minimalist maintenance standards should suit me just fine.
It is not that they do not know. It is more that they do not care, (not to the same the extent a hard nosed user would care).
I do follow the manufacturer's suggestions, unless they suggest something that contradicts common sense, (or when I see an apparent ulterior motive).
I respectfully put forward that I do not expect manufacturers to be interested in prolonging their product's useful life much past the warranty period.
And that is a pretty low bar. I think we can do better.
If I was merely shooting for lasting through the warranty, minimalist maintenance standards should suit me just fine.
It is not that they do not know. It is more that they do not care, (not to the same the extent a hard nosed user would care).