WHAT BRAND OF OIL FOR THE HYDRO-GEARS IN AN "IS 700Z"

coder

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  • / WHAT BRAND OF OIL FOR THE HYDRO-GEARS IN AN "IS 700Z"
Shear: In motor oil context, this refers to thinning of an oils in extreme circumstances, which cannot be explained by temperature differences alone.
Long chain Viscosity Modifiers may end up with their long chains chopped (sheared) , which leads to these VM-s losing some of their
efficiency permanently. This process is often described as "shearing down" to a lower viscosity over time. Note that various
synthetic base oils are naturally multi-viscous and are said to be "shear stabile" (depending on their type, such as PAO, Ester etc) .
This is one of principal advantages of using synthetic base oils, that they do not require VM-s, or much less.
High pressure, high temperature applications e.g. a hydro, are often called HTHS ( High Temp, High Shear) environments.

Hydro manufacturers such as Hydrogear, and Zt mower manufacturers such as Gravely, Hustler, etc. explicitly call out the multi-viscosity grade of the
motor oils they recommend for their Hydro units. Typically, 15W50 or 20W50 multigrade oils, specifically.
The minimum Kinematic viscosity is given at a "non-standard", higher temperature such as 120 celsius to reflect the higher operating temperature
which is common for these units. I believe it would be a mistake to use this number as a basis to "re-think" the recommended hydro oil grade.

Keep in mind that ICE engines operate at a target temperature of around 100 celsius, which can be maintained given their higher oil volume and efficient cooling system
(water cooled, or high volume air cooled). Hydros tend to run hotter than this, because of their smaller oil volume and much less sophisticated/efficient cooling.

It seems like common sense to me, but, by all means draw your own conclusions. Perhaps I am totally wrong. If we are still around in 10 years, we can meet back up here.
and compare notes, how our respective maintenance approach worked out. :)

Cheers
 

slomo

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  • / WHAT BRAND OF OIL FOR THE HYDRO-GEARS IN AN "IS 700Z"
Hydraulics does not require a super thick fluid, just to combat heat. That is what a cooler is for, remove the heat. Seems to me these manufactures KNOW the fluid gets to 150C and are not installing coolers. That is neglect and poor engineering. You can use water to pump anything in a hydro system. Will it corrode in time, sure. Will it work yes.

Again cst is rated at 100C. Some Chinese hydro company calling for some cst number at anything other than 100C is pointless.

slomo
 

loneryder

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  • / WHAT BRAND OF OIL FOR THE HYDRO-GEARS IN AN "IS 700Z"
Castrol just came out with a dino 20-50 with high zinc for classic cars. I would think that would work well in Hydrogear trannys. Think it's SM rated. Only at Walmart.
 

Hammermechanicman

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  • / WHAT BRAND OF OIL FOR THE HYDRO-GEARS IN AN "IS 700Z"
As long as you are using Motor Honey you are good LOL.


slomo
Hey! Don't go hating on Motor Honey. Back in the early 70's i had a 352 Ford galaxie that burned oil like no other. 3 quarts of SAE50 wt and 2 quarts of Motor Honey and it didn't smoke a bit. Sold it like that.
 

coder

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  • / WHAT BRAND OF OIL FOR THE HYDRO-GEARS IN AN "IS 700Z"
My point was, the Hydro manufacturer Hydrogear and multiple Zt manufacturers (those who use the Zt Hydros)
seem to all recommend 15W50 or 20W50 motor oil. This recommendation makes sense to me on multiple
levels, so I follow it.

Kinematic viscosity can be measured at any temperature the manufacturer choses.
100 celsius is merely one popular reference point often given, so is 40 celsius, so is 150 celsius.
AFAIK Listing it at 110 or 120 celsius is not forbidden.

Slomo, do you have an alternative recommendation? Let's hear it!
 

slomo

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  • / WHAT BRAND OF OIL FOR THE HYDRO-GEARS IN AN "IS 700Z"
My point was, the Hydro manufacturer Hydrogear and multiple Zt manufacturers (those who use the Zt Hydros)
seem to all recommend 15W50 or 20W50 motor oil. This recommendation makes sense to me on multiple
levels, so I follow it.

Kinematic viscosity can be measured at any temperature the manufacturer choses.
100 celsius is merely one popular reference point often given, so is 40 celsius, so is 150 celsius.
AFAIK Listing it at 110 or 120 celsius is not forbidden.

Slomo, do you have an alternative recommendation? Let's hear it!
Just saying the "standard" for kin viscos is 100C. End of message. Sure oil will thin a bit more if it gets hotter. We all know that. Use 200C if you like.

I still stand by my deal of manufacturers knowing their fluid gets to 150C or roughly 300F, they should install an oil cooler.

slomo
 

slomo

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  • / WHAT BRAND OF OIL FOR THE HYDRO-GEARS IN AN "IS 700Z"
Why not use the HTHS (cP) rating instead? Look at the far right in the chart below. That is rated at 150C.

As we all can see, the viscosity at 150C is "slightly" thicker in the heavier single grade oils. Simple math comparing an SAE30 as I stated several threads ago, to a STRAIGHT grade SAE50 or SAE60 is only 0.8cP difference. Not a hill of beans at all. YES the heavier oils have slightly more viscosity at 150C. But 0.8 cP, not going to lose any sleep over it.

So trying to push that motor honey 20w-50 through a tiny hydro system, no wonder they are overheating at 150C. A hydraulic system should take a proper hydraulic fluid. Not,,,, motor oil.


11.png
 

coder

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  • / WHAT BRAND OF OIL FOR THE HYDRO-GEARS IN AN "IS 700Z"
HTHS? That may not be a bad idea. If the fluid is supposed to stand up to high heat and high (molecular) shear, car manufacturers tend to spec the required min HTHS.
If you will, it is a more "modern" oil spec. developed to quantify how the oil behaves in such environment.

Slomo, you could perhaps initiate a conversation with the manufacturer, and find out more about their reasoning, or induce them to change their ways, or at least explain
why they decided to spec what they did. https://www.hydro-gear.com/end-users ... I see no point in yelling at BITOG users, because of what Hydro-gear decides to publish.

You posted earlier " Don't know about high sheer at all. Nothing is sheering".
The sear here is molecular shear. When you push oil through tight spaces at high pressure, some of the friction modifier's long chains get chopped off
i.e. "sheared" resulting in undesirable viscosity changes. BITOG has an excellent article that explains the topic in some detail.

 

slomo

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  • / WHAT BRAND OF OIL FOR THE HYDRO-GEARS IN AN "IS 700Z"
HTHS? That may not be a bad idea. If the fluid is supposed to stand up to high heat and high (molecular) shear, car manufacturers tend to spec the required min HTHS.
If you will, it is a more "modern" oil spec. developed to quantify how the oil behaves in such environment.

Slomo, you could perhaps initiate a conversation with the manufacturer, and find out more about their reasoning, or induce them to change their ways, or at least explain
why they decided to spec what they did. https://www.hydro-gear.com/end-users ... I see no point in yelling at BITOG users, because of what Hydro-gear decides to publish.

You posted earlier " Don't know about high sheer at all. Nothing is sheering".
The sear here is molecular shear. When you push oil through tight spaces at high pressure, some of the friction modifier's long chains get chopped off
i.e. "sheared" resulting in undesirable viscosity changes. BITOG has an excellent article that explains the topic in some detail.

Shearing is simple. Oil molecules getting smaller from some process. Just leave it at that. Trust me, oil or let's call it a fluid in a hydro system has a leisure life compared to a fluid in a gearbox. Noted most mowers don't have gearboxes as we all know.

All oils shear to some degree in all systems. Some shear more, some less.

HTHS is not a modern spec as you were hitting at. Simply details oil behavior at specific temps.

300F is getting pretty toasty for any oil with no cooler. Again if super tough whatever hydro company knows their hydro system is at 150C and lacks cooling of said oil, I would look elsewhere. They are waaay over spec'ing their recommended oil praying their system makes it past the 1-3 years of warranty. Some VP said, hey we can save 19 bucks making this system cheaper to manufacturer. Sell a lot more of these..... Not our problem after the warranty is over.

slomo
 
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