safety switch killing batteries

[ILENGINE]

35 hp Vanguard with 20 amp charging system. Disconnected wire from regulator and installed amp meter between regulator and battery source. Reading 0 amps.

 

[Mad Mackie]

35 hp Vanguard with 20 amp charging system. Disconnected wire from regulator and installed amp meter between regulator and battery source. Reading 0 amps.

Not a good answer!:thumbdown:

Mad Mackie, retired mech that held the following certifications:
B&S
Onan
Kohler
Johnson Outboard MT
Mercruiser MT
Homelite
Pioneer
Lawn Boy
Beechcraft
FAA A&P

 

[bertsmobile1]

Even the Briggs 3/5 amp dual circuit charging system has battery voltage at the equipment side of the diode, or what is referred to as a unregulated half wave rectifier.


Also if you are getting battery voltage at the stator, that means the diodes in the rectifier have failed. And even if they were failed, the current has no place to go since the stator isn't grounded. Since there is no current flow through the stator then there isn't any way to turn the stator into an starter armature.

Rant off/

Now argueing amongst ourselves is probably confusing the hell out of the origin poster.

However any stator with only one output wire on circuit has to be earthing out through the mounting bolts or it can not work as the stator coils will be open circuit.
As far as I can see no B & S stators less than 25 Amp ratings have two output wires for a single stator circuit so they are all connected electronically to the motor.
As such if there is battery voltage to the stator it will try to energise the stator coils and turn the alternator into a very poor DC motor.
So in this case you must isolate the wingings from the battery when the stator is not spinning if for no other reason than to protect the diode from full battery current and to protect the battery from diode leakage.

Now I am very happy to be proven wrong because unlike politicians & bankers I learn from my mistakes.
So if I have this all wrong please show me why.

 

[ILENGINE]

Not a good answer!:thumbdown:

Mad Mackie, retired mech that held the following certifications:
B&S
Onan
Kohler
Johnson Outboard MT
Mercruiser MT
Homelite
Pioneer
Lawn Boy
Beechcraft
FAA A&P

First I used the 20 amp system since I didn't have one of the 10-16 charging systems in the shop right now. the reason they went to the 6 pin key switch on a lot of equipment is because on a lot of the newer equipment the switch is mounted in plastic and wouldn't have a way of ground the switch to kill the engine. That same regulator/rectifier is also used on the older 5 pin key switch system, and is wired directly to the battery side of the starter solenoid. Also on equipment with amp meters it is more convenient for the OEM to use the key switch for charging because it is close the the meter.

Now for why you are getting a 1.4 amp discharge at the regulator who knows. But why are they saying it will discharge the battery unless you kill the battery to the regulator, and then wire it hot on other pieces of equipment. The discharge rate through the regulator at the red connector for the battery voltage should be measured in milliamps, not amps.

 

[ILENGINE]

Now argueing amongst ourselves is probably confusing the hell out of the origin poster.

However any stator with only one output wire on circuit has to be earthing out through the mounting bolts or it can not work as the stator coils will be open circuit.
As far as I can see no B & S stators less than 25 Amp ratings have two output wires for a single stator circuit so they are all connected electronically to the motor.
As such if there is battery voltage to the stator it will try to energise the stator coils and turn the alternator into a very poor DC motor.
So in this case you must isolate the wingings from the battery when the stator is not spinning if for no other reason than to protect the diode from full battery current and to protect the battery from diode leakage.

Now I am very happy to be proven wrong because unlike politicians & bankers I learn from my mistakes.
So if I have this all wrong please show me why.

On 9, 10, 16, 20 amp systems used on briggs, the stator is not grounded through the housing. I need to check on the 3/5 system, which is sometimes referred to as the 2/4, so it may also be a single winding stator. If you connect one lead of a test meter to one output wire of the stator and the other to ground you shouldn't get a continuity reading. that is actually the test for checking for shorted stator. Used on small engines, ATV's, Motorcycles, etc. The single output wire stator would have the other end of the winding grounded but I don't see many of those any more.

I am moving on to other things know, so I am done ranting.

 

[motoman]

Bert is right that it is easy to scare average owners away with complex explanations and "electric speak." Is it possible to make a definitive statement for users that once the tractor ignition key is off a simple current check can be made at the battery terminal as discussed with a DVM that should not show more than ? 50 milliamps ( fifty each one thousandths of one amp - .050 amps)? And that excess shows that something is draining the battery ? Or perhaps a range, presumably small ?

 

[Mad Mackie]

1.4 AMPS equals 1,400 Milliamps!!!
My Hustler X-ONE has a 5 terminal key switch, but it is Kawasaki FX730V-CS17-R powered, different design charging system with backfeed protection included in the R/R circuitry.

Anyway, we still have 12"-15" of snow and ice to go away and I'm patiently waiting for it to GO AWAY!!!!!!

 

[ILENGINE]

1.4 AMPS equals 1,400 Milliamps!!!
My Hustler X-ONE has a 5 terminal key switch, but it is Kawasaki FX730V-CS17-R powered, different design charging system with backfeed protection included in the R/R circuitry.

Anyway, we still have 12"-15" of snow and ice to go away and I'm patiently waiting for it to GO AWAY!!!!!!

The snow and cold air has frozen our brains, and we are just itching for spring to start, so we have other things to worry about other than fighting with each other. Stuff is starting to pick up around here but still cold, and raining right now.

Nothing like having a tiller come in with valve adjustment problems on a 6 hp horizontal intek and have the bowl gasket start leaking after being started over a dozen times over a three day period. How about leaking seal between the right drive pump, and T drive on a dixie chopper X1701. Nothing like having to drain the hydraulic system, and disconnect four hydraulic lines, and 6 low pressure circulation lines, before removing the T drive and both pumps.

 

[Mad Mackie]

I was going to zip down to FL for a few weeks before the spring break, but my bride and the weather put a screeching halt to that plan!!! But I'll put it all on her!!! Actually have a sloppy upper ball joint in right front of my truck that I haven't addressed yet, but I won't tell her about it!!!! So I wasn't going to make the trip anyway until I replaced it or better, all four!
Anyway, take care there ILENGINE,
this old buzzard needs his "beauty" sleep!!! LOL
Mad Mackie in snowy and cold CT:thumbdown:

 

[Mad Mackie]

Good morning ILENGINE,
Just got an email from my buddy at Briggs & Stratton, he says that the R/R do draw a small amount of current when connected in the system and have been designed that way for many years, but didn't remember when as it has been a long time.
I just rechecked the R/R on my 18 Vanguard with the same multimeter and it indicated 1.4 AMPS, got another multimeter out and it indicated 1.4 Milliamps! Replaced the battery in the first meter and it now shows 1.4 Milliamps. I know better than to trust the reading on one multimeter. I have 5 or 6 multimeters, I keep two in my mobile service tool boxes for that same reason.
So, you are correct with your comments about the B&S charging systems and I apologize to you for my not making sure that my test equipment was working properly before I started yapping in this post!!
When I mentioned that Scag still uses the charging system isolation type key switch to my buddy at B&S, his comment was that many OEMs that offer different brands of engine options on their machines prefer to use that type of electrical system as it covers all situations. He also commented about the electronic control modules on machines, I gather that some OEMs keep the modules live and others don't, not sure why.
Anyway, take care!!
Later
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile: