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safety switch killing batteries
#1
F
Fr Anthony
F
Fr Anthony
My six month old Ariens 46 inch has killed two batteries, one brand new. As a friend had a similar problem i think his solution is mine also. Somehow the seat safety switch is killing these batteries. He had to take two new batteries back for replacement before he solved the problem: he disconnected the seat safety switch. On my Ariens the motor was running, the parking brake was set, I stepped off the tractor and the motor died. When I tried to start it up no sound at all...the battery was dead. Anyone else with the same problem?
#2
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
I have never seen a seat switch that was even wired through the battery. They are wired on the kill side of the ignition module, with no battery voltage what so ever even coming close to the seat switch.
I think you need and your neighbor need to look else where for the battery problem. Not charging, faulty batteries, Had a customer that went through 4 one spring due to faulty batteries. Could even be a short some place in the wiring. But I doubt it is the seat switch.
I think you need and your neighbor need to look else where for the battery problem. Not charging, faulty batteries, Had a customer that went through 4 one spring due to faulty batteries. Could even be a short some place in the wiring. But I doubt it is the seat switch.
#3
JD is best
JD is best
Can you turn on headlights or pto when battery is dead? Seat switch may just be causing you not to be able to crank engine.
#4
Boobala
Boobala
I would check the ENTIRE length of the battery cable from the battery to the start solenoid , may have rubbed through the insulation along the frame at some point, ALSO , I had a friend with a similar problem, turned out to be an INTERNAL short, INSIDE his ignition switch, drove him crazy for weeks, could be a pinched wire somewhere too. All the best to ya , keep us informed ........ Boobala ............ :confused3:
#5
M
motoman
M
motoman
A battery hydrometer should be purchased ($4). Check the electrolyte. This is a better check than a volt meter. Any auto store. Make sure the rubber beak will enter the battery cells. (Oh yeah, you gotta have an unsealed battery). Do the current drain check if you have a DVM (volt meter). Ignition off. Read DVM owner's manual on how to set up for "CURRENT CHECK." Disconnect ground cable of bat. "Insert" the DVM into the tractor circuit by hooking up one DVM lead to the disconnected bat terminal and the other lead to the disconnected cable. With DVM set on "current" read any value that appears on the DVM . With key off little (milliamps) or no (zero) current should be detected (pros please edit here). Current flow with tractor turned off suggests something is consuming current like a switch stuck on , glove box lite (car) etc. Finding the consumer is the hard part.:smile:
#6
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
amp draw should be 100 milliamps or less. If doing the amp draw test like instructed above make sure your meter can handle up to 20 amps DC, or it may go boom. You will almost always get a 12 v reading if you disconnect one of the battery cables and put a meter between it and the battery post, so you will need an amp test.
#7
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
On the vast majority of machines, all battery power passes thru the key switch. The key switch also isolates battery power from the charging system when in the off position. The reason being is that the type of charging systems on small engines will draw power from the battery when the engine is not running, therefore the need to open the circuit from the charging system is necessary when the engine is shut off.
What stays hot, is the positive from the battery to the key switch which usually has a fuse of some sort.
What stays hot, is the positive from the battery to the key switch which usually has a fuse of some sort.
#8
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
On most mowers you will have battery voltage to the voltage regulator even with the key off. Most people think you have to isolate the charging system to prevent battery discharge, but if everything is working correctly that isn't true.
#9
M
motoman
M
motoman
Thank you gentlemen...So...do the current test. (For readers, expand your capabilities by owning and using a DVM. They can be expensive, but you may get by with a relatively cheap one such as -here I go again- H Frt $25) A word on the current function on these DMVs. The owners manual will show you how to move the test lead(s) to a different socket on the unit from that used for continuity (beep) and voltage. Once set up you can then hook in SERIES with the line to be tested. There is a cautionary note mentioned. Inside the DMV (they come apart) there is a small fuse which will blow in the current function if the fuse capacity is exceeded. The fuse is replaceable. On the outside of the DVM and in the handbook the current capacity in CURRENT mode is stated. The little DVMs only have 2 amp capacity, and the bigger ones typically 10 amps. Don't let this scare you off. These hand held devices will pay for themselves many times over. So in the case of the clutch normally @ 2-4 amps a bigger DVM will read this out when testing. A smaller one may blow the fuse. If the 10 amp version blows a fuse you may surmise the clutch is drawing more than 10 amps , therefore bad. (pros edit please).
#10
M
Mad Mackie
I haven't seen battery excited voltage regulators since Onan and Kohler stopped using them in possibly the mid 70s. Starter/generators have battery voltage at the regulator, but they went away back then also.
AC comes out of the stator in two wires that connect to the regulator/rectifier, the R/R blocks the part of the AC that is the wrong polarity, regulates the part of the AC that is the correct polarity and sends it out a single wire, usually fused and connected to the charging terminal on the key switch. When the key switch in in the on position, it connects the charging output to the battery power in the system.
On higher amp output charging systems, there are differently designed systems, but the majority of the systems 15-20 amps and smaller are the basic type as described above. If battery power is left connected to these systems, power will backfeed thru the R/R and into the stator and attempt to rotate the flywheel and will discharge a fully charged battery fairly quickly and may damage the R/R.
M
Mad Mackie
On most mowers you will have battery voltage to the voltage regulator even with the key off. Most people think you have to isolate the charging system to prevent battery discharge, but if everything is working correctly that isn't true.
I haven't seen battery excited voltage regulators since Onan and Kohler stopped using them in possibly the mid 70s. Starter/generators have battery voltage at the regulator, but they went away back then also.
AC comes out of the stator in two wires that connect to the regulator/rectifier, the R/R blocks the part of the AC that is the wrong polarity, regulates the part of the AC that is the correct polarity and sends it out a single wire, usually fused and connected to the charging terminal on the key switch. When the key switch in in the on position, it connects the charging output to the battery power in the system.
On higher amp output charging systems, there are differently designed systems, but the majority of the systems 15-20 amps and smaller are the basic type as described above. If battery power is left connected to these systems, power will backfeed thru the R/R and into the stator and attempt to rotate the flywheel and will discharge a fully charged battery fairly quickly and may damage the R/R.
#11
reynoldston
On most mowers this is right but not all. I have seen the seat switch go to a relay that supply's the negative, just worked on a Wheel horse that had that system this fall. This is the very reason for a wiring diagram.
reynoldston
I have never seen a seat switch that was even wired through the battery. They are wired on the kill side of the ignition module, with no battery voltage what so ever even coming close to the seat switch.
I think you need and your neighbor need to look else where for the battery problem. Not charging, faulty batteries, Had a customer that went through 4 one spring due to faulty batteries. Could even be a short some place in the wiring. But I doubt it is the seat switch.
On most mowers this is right but not all. I have seen the seat switch go to a relay that supply's the negative, just worked on a Wheel horse that had that system this fall. This is the very reason for a wiring diagram.
#12
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Briggs and other engine companies have many different electrical setups for charging and engine electrical systems, I think that Briggs has too many and possibly others may also.
Getting the wiring diagrams specific to the machine and the engine are the better way to start troubleshooting electrical problems on any machine.
Getting the wiring diagrams specific to the machine and the engine are the better way to start troubleshooting electrical problems on any machine.
#13
reynoldston
This is very true and that is the very reason this is my advice any electrical problem. Year to year and model to model can be different.
reynoldston
Briggs and other engine companies have many different electrical setups for charging and engine electrical systems, I think that Briggs has too many and possibly others may also.
Getting the wiring diagrams specific to the machine and the engine are the better way to start troubleshooting electrical problems on any machine.
This is very true and that is the very reason this is my advice any electrical problem. Year to year and model to model can be different.
#14
Boobala
Boobala
Found this manual , it may or may not pertain to your mower , BUT section 10 has some electrical info that may prove useful . :confused2:
http://apache.ariens.com/manuals/00173200.pdf
Hope ya good luck, .....Later .......... Boobala
http://apache.ariens.com/manuals/00173200.pdf
Hope ya good luck, .....Later .......... Boobala
#15
pugaltitude
pugaltitude
If its 6 months old then take it back to dealer for warranty.
#16
B
bertsmobile1
Only if they are a relatively new mower with a real regulator & a 10A or higher charging system.
There is nothing in the B&S 3 to 5 A systems to regulate the charging, just a single diode which is only just barely able to do its job.
B
bertsmobile1
On most mowers you will have battery voltage to the voltage regulator even with the key off. Most people think you have to isolate the charging system to prevent battery discharge, but if everything is working correctly that isn't true.
Only if they are a relatively new mower with a real regulator & a 10A or higher charging system.
There is nothing in the B&S 3 to 5 A systems to regulate the charging, just a single diode which is only just barely able to do its job.
#17
B
bertsmobile1
Yep.
Happens all the time on tractors that have a manual PTO and thus the small alternators.
B
bertsmobile1
I haven't seen battery excited voltage regulators since Onan and Kohler stopped using them in possibly the mid 70s. Starter/generators have battery voltage at the regulator, but they went away back then also.
AC comes out of the stator in two wires that connect to the regulator/rectifier, the R/R blocks the part of the AC that is the wrong polarity, regulates the part of the AC that is the correct polarity and sends it out a single wire, usually fused and connected to the charging terminal on the key switch. When the key switch in in the on position, it connects the charging output to the battery power in the system.
On higher amp output charging systems, there are differently designed systems, but the majority of the systems 15-20 amps and smaller are the basic type as described above. If battery power is left connected to these systems, power will backfeed thru the R/R and into the stator and attempt to rotate the flywheel and will discharge a fully charged battery fairly quickly and may damage the R/R.
Yep.
Happens all the time on tractors that have a manual PTO and thus the small alternators.
#18
M
motoman
M
motoman
Are y'all saying that in many cases PTO - related battery drain is due to ignition switches left on or diode failure? And again ,can a static current test (no spinning blades) detect current flow ? (Again what seems simple may still reuire some thought)
Sorry, this belongs with the PTO thread, but I could not deleted it just now.
Sorry, this belongs with the PTO thread, but I could not deleted it just now.
#19
I
ILENGINE
Even the Briggs 3/5 amp dual circuit charging system has battery voltage at the equipment side of the diode, or what is referred to as a unregulated half wave rectifier.
Mad, the briggs and kohler regulator rectifiers require battery voltage at the regulator to close the micro switch internal to allow power output. No battery voltage at the regulator no power output. Also Kohler also has told there dealers that if they find a charging system on a mower that is wired through the key switch to remove the wire and wire it to the battery side of the starter solenoid. The "if we don't kill power to the charging system it will drain the battery was a lie told by several OEM's that hasn't been true for 30 years."
You are right the regulator on modern mowers will drain the battery if you don't disconnect the battery from the regulator. It only takes 6-9 months.
Also if you are getting battery voltage at the stator, that means the diodes in the rectifier have failed. And even if they were failed, the current has no place to go since the stator isn't grounded. Since there is no current flow through the stator then there isn't any way to turn the stator into an starter armature.
Rant off/
I
ILENGINE
Only if they are a relatively new mower with a real regulator & a 10A or higher charging system.
There is nothing in the B&S 3 to 5 A systems to regulate the charging, just a single diode which is only just barely able to do its job.
Even the Briggs 3/5 amp dual circuit charging system has battery voltage at the equipment side of the diode, or what is referred to as a unregulated half wave rectifier.
I haven't seen battery excited voltage regulators since Onan and Kohler stopped using them in possibly the mid 70s. Starter/generators have battery voltage at the regulator, but they went away back then also.
AC comes out of the stator in two wires that connect to the regulator/rectifier, the R/R blocks the part of the AC that is the wrong polarity, regulates the part of the AC that is the correct polarity and sends it out a single wire, usually fused and connected to the charging terminal on the key switch. When the key switch in in the on position, it connects the charging output to the battery power in the system.
On higher amp output charging systems, there are differently designed systems, but the majority of the systems 15-20 amps and smaller are the basic type as described above. If battery power is left connected to these systems, power will backfeed thru the R/R and into the stator and attempt to rotate the flywheel and will discharge a fully charged battery fairly quickly and may damage the R/R.
Mad, the briggs and kohler regulator rectifiers require battery voltage at the regulator to close the micro switch internal to allow power output. No battery voltage at the regulator no power output. Also Kohler also has told there dealers that if they find a charging system on a mower that is wired through the key switch to remove the wire and wire it to the battery side of the starter solenoid. The "if we don't kill power to the charging system it will drain the battery was a lie told by several OEM's that hasn't been true for 30 years."
You are right the regulator on modern mowers will drain the battery if you don't disconnect the battery from the regulator. It only takes 6-9 months.
Also if you are getting battery voltage at the stator, that means the diodes in the rectifier have failed. And even if they were failed, the current has no place to go since the stator isn't grounded. Since there is no current flow through the stator then there isn't any way to turn the stator into an starter armature.
Rant off/
#20
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Hi ILengine,
I'm not here to bust your chops, but I do have several questions/comments for you.
Comments first:
I have one tractor that has an 18 Vanguard horizontal shaft engine of 2004 production, 16 AMP regulated charging system, two yellow wires and one red wire, grounded housing regulator.
I also have a Scag Tiger Cub repower that has a 30 Briggs Professional Turf vertical shaft engine 2012 production, 16 AMP regulated charging system, same type regulator.
Both machines have six terminal key switches, and when in the off position, isolate the charging system from the battery.
I just checked both machines by disconnecting the red wire at the regulators and connecting in an ammeter. Key switch in off position, no current flow, key switch on, 1.4 AMP current flow.
Questions:
Where is the 1.4 AMP current flow going?
At a 1.4 AMP discharge, how long would it take to discharge a 420CA (30 AMP Hour) rated battery?
Why are six terminal key switches still installed on machines with engines of this type?
Why is the sixth terminal connected to the charging system output?
Why when in the off position does the key switch open the circuit from battery power to the charging system output?
Mad Mackie in CT::smile:
I'm not here to bust your chops, but I do have several questions/comments for you.
Comments first:
I have one tractor that has an 18 Vanguard horizontal shaft engine of 2004 production, 16 AMP regulated charging system, two yellow wires and one red wire, grounded housing regulator.
I also have a Scag Tiger Cub repower that has a 30 Briggs Professional Turf vertical shaft engine 2012 production, 16 AMP regulated charging system, same type regulator.
Both machines have six terminal key switches, and when in the off position, isolate the charging system from the battery.
I just checked both machines by disconnecting the red wire at the regulators and connecting in an ammeter. Key switch in off position, no current flow, key switch on, 1.4 AMP current flow.
Questions:
Where is the 1.4 AMP current flow going?
At a 1.4 AMP discharge, how long would it take to discharge a 420CA (30 AMP Hour) rated battery?
Why are six terminal key switches still installed on machines with engines of this type?
Why is the sixth terminal connected to the charging system output?
Why when in the off position does the key switch open the circuit from battery power to the charging system output?
Mad Mackie in CT::smile:
#21
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
35 hp Vanguard with 20 amp charging system. Disconnected wire from regulator and installed amp meter between regulator and battery source. Reading 0 amps.
#22
M
Mad Mackie
Not a good answer!:thumbdown:
Mad Mackie, retired mech that held the following certifications:
B&S
Onan
Kohler
Johnson Outboard MT
Mercruiser MT
Homelite
Pioneer
Lawn Boy
Beechcraft
FAA A&P
M
Mad Mackie
35 hp Vanguard with 20 amp charging system. Disconnected wire from regulator and installed amp meter between regulator and battery source. Reading 0 amps.
Not a good answer!:thumbdown:
Mad Mackie, retired mech that held the following certifications:
B&S
Onan
Kohler
Johnson Outboard MT
Mercruiser MT
Homelite
Pioneer
Lawn Boy
Beechcraft
FAA A&P
#23
B
bertsmobile1
Now argueing amongst ourselves is probably confusing the hell out of the origin poster.
However any stator with only one output wire on circuit has to be earthing out through the mounting bolts or it can not work as the stator coils will be open circuit.
As far as I can see no B & S stators less than 25 Amp ratings have two output wires for a single stator circuit so they are all connected electronically to the motor.
As such if there is battery voltage to the stator it will try to energise the stator coils and turn the alternator into a very poor DC motor.
So in this case you must isolate the wingings from the battery when the stator is not spinning if for no other reason than to protect the diode from full battery current and to protect the battery from diode leakage.
Now I am very happy to be proven wrong because unlike politicians & bankers I learn from my mistakes.
So if I have this all wrong please show me why.
B
bertsmobile1
Even the Briggs 3/5 amp dual circuit charging system has battery voltage at the equipment side of the diode, or what is referred to as a unregulated half wave rectifier.
Also if you are getting battery voltage at the stator, that means the diodes in the rectifier have failed. And even if they were failed, the current has no place to go since the stator isn't grounded. Since there is no current flow through the stator then there isn't any way to turn the stator into an starter armature.
Rant off/
Now argueing amongst ourselves is probably confusing the hell out of the origin poster.
However any stator with only one output wire on circuit has to be earthing out through the mounting bolts or it can not work as the stator coils will be open circuit.
As far as I can see no B & S stators less than 25 Amp ratings have two output wires for a single stator circuit so they are all connected electronically to the motor.
As such if there is battery voltage to the stator it will try to energise the stator coils and turn the alternator into a very poor DC motor.
So in this case you must isolate the wingings from the battery when the stator is not spinning if for no other reason than to protect the diode from full battery current and to protect the battery from diode leakage.
Now I am very happy to be proven wrong because unlike politicians & bankers I learn from my mistakes.
So if I have this all wrong please show me why.
#24
I
ILENGINE
First I used the 20 amp system since I didn't have one of the 10-16 charging systems in the shop right now. the reason they went to the 6 pin key switch on a lot of equipment is because on a lot of the newer equipment the switch is mounted in plastic and wouldn't have a way of ground the switch to kill the engine. That same regulator/rectifier is also used on the older 5 pin key switch system, and is wired directly to the battery side of the starter solenoid. Also on equipment with amp meters it is more convenient for the OEM to use the key switch for charging because it is close the the meter.
Now for why you are getting a 1.4 amp discharge at the regulator who knows. But why are they saying it will discharge the battery unless you kill the battery to the regulator, and then wire it hot on other pieces of equipment. The discharge rate through the regulator at the red connector for the battery voltage should be measured in milliamps, not amps.
I
ILENGINE
Not a good answer!:thumbdown:
Mad Mackie, retired mech that held the following certifications:
B&S
Onan
Kohler
Johnson Outboard MT
Mercruiser MT
Homelite
Pioneer
Lawn Boy
Beechcraft
FAA A&P
First I used the 20 amp system since I didn't have one of the 10-16 charging systems in the shop right now. the reason they went to the 6 pin key switch on a lot of equipment is because on a lot of the newer equipment the switch is mounted in plastic and wouldn't have a way of ground the switch to kill the engine. That same regulator/rectifier is also used on the older 5 pin key switch system, and is wired directly to the battery side of the starter solenoid. Also on equipment with amp meters it is more convenient for the OEM to use the key switch for charging because it is close the the meter.
Now for why you are getting a 1.4 amp discharge at the regulator who knows. But why are they saying it will discharge the battery unless you kill the battery to the regulator, and then wire it hot on other pieces of equipment. The discharge rate through the regulator at the red connector for the battery voltage should be measured in milliamps, not amps.
#25
I
ILENGINE
On 9, 10, 16, 20 amp systems used on briggs, the stator is not grounded through the housing. I need to check on the 3/5 system, which is sometimes referred to as the 2/4, so it may also be a single winding stator. If you connect one lead of a test meter to one output wire of the stator and the other to ground you shouldn't get a continuity reading. that is actually the test for checking for shorted stator. Used on small engines, ATV's, Motorcycles, etc. The single output wire stator would have the other end of the winding grounded but I don't see many of those any more.
I am moving on to other things know, so I am done ranting.
I
ILENGINE
Now argueing amongst ourselves is probably confusing the hell out of the origin poster.
However any stator with only one output wire on circuit has to be earthing out through the mounting bolts or it can not work as the stator coils will be open circuit.
As far as I can see no B & S stators less than 25 Amp ratings have two output wires for a single stator circuit so they are all connected electronically to the motor.
As such if there is battery voltage to the stator it will try to energise the stator coils and turn the alternator into a very poor DC motor.
So in this case you must isolate the wingings from the battery when the stator is not spinning if for no other reason than to protect the diode from full battery current and to protect the battery from diode leakage.
Now I am very happy to be proven wrong because unlike politicians & bankers I learn from my mistakes.
So if I have this all wrong please show me why.
On 9, 10, 16, 20 amp systems used on briggs, the stator is not grounded through the housing. I need to check on the 3/5 system, which is sometimes referred to as the 2/4, so it may also be a single winding stator. If you connect one lead of a test meter to one output wire of the stator and the other to ground you shouldn't get a continuity reading. that is actually the test for checking for shorted stator. Used on small engines, ATV's, Motorcycles, etc. The single output wire stator would have the other end of the winding grounded but I don't see many of those any more.
I am moving on to other things know, so I am done ranting.
#26
M
motoman
M
motoman
Bert is right that it is easy to scare average owners away with complex explanations and "electric speak." Is it possible to make a definitive statement for users that once the tractor ignition key is off a simple current check can be made at the battery terminal as discussed with a DVM that should not show more than ? 50 milliamps ( fifty each one thousandths of one amp - .050 amps)? And that excess shows that something is draining the battery ? Or perhaps a range, presumably small ?
#27
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
1.4 AMPS equals 1,400 Milliamps!!!
My Hustler X-ONE has a 5 terminal key switch, but it is Kawasaki FX730V-CS17-R powered, different design charging system with backfeed protection included in the R/R circuitry.
Anyway, we still have 12"-15" of snow and ice to go away and I'm patiently waiting for it to GO AWAY!!!!!!
My Hustler X-ONE has a 5 terminal key switch, but it is Kawasaki FX730V-CS17-R powered, different design charging system with backfeed protection included in the R/R circuitry.
Anyway, we still have 12"-15" of snow and ice to go away and I'm patiently waiting for it to GO AWAY!!!!!!
#28
I
ILENGINE
The snow and cold air has frozen our brains, and we are just itching for spring to start, so we have other things to worry about other than fighting with each other. Stuff is starting to pick up around here but still cold, and raining right now.
Nothing like having a tiller come in with valve adjustment problems on a 6 hp horizontal intek and have the bowl gasket start leaking after being started over a dozen times over a three day period. How about leaking seal between the right drive pump, and T drive on a dixie chopper X1701. Nothing like having to drain the hydraulic system, and disconnect four hydraulic lines, and 6 low pressure circulation lines, before removing the T drive and both pumps.
I
ILENGINE
1.4 AMPS equals 1,400 Milliamps!!!
My Hustler X-ONE has a 5 terminal key switch, but it is Kawasaki FX730V-CS17-R powered, different design charging system with backfeed protection included in the R/R circuitry.
Anyway, we still have 12"-15" of snow and ice to go away and I'm patiently waiting for it to GO AWAY!!!!!!
The snow and cold air has frozen our brains, and we are just itching for spring to start, so we have other things to worry about other than fighting with each other. Stuff is starting to pick up around here but still cold, and raining right now.
Nothing like having a tiller come in with valve adjustment problems on a 6 hp horizontal intek and have the bowl gasket start leaking after being started over a dozen times over a three day period. How about leaking seal between the right drive pump, and T drive on a dixie chopper X1701. Nothing like having to drain the hydraulic system, and disconnect four hydraulic lines, and 6 low pressure circulation lines, before removing the T drive and both pumps.
#29
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
I was going to zip down to FL for a few weeks before the spring break, but my bride and the weather put a screeching halt to that plan!!! But I'll put it all on her!!! Actually have a sloppy upper ball joint in right front of my truck that I haven't addressed yet, but I won't tell her about it!!!! So I wasn't going to make the trip anyway until I replaced it or better, all four!
Anyway, take care there ILENGINE,
this old buzzard needs his "beauty" sleep!!! LOL
Mad Mackie in snowy and cold CT:thumbdown:
Anyway, take care there ILENGINE,
this old buzzard needs his "beauty" sleep!!! LOL
Mad Mackie in snowy and cold CT:thumbdown:
#30
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Good morning ILENGINE,
Just got an email from my buddy at Briggs & Stratton, he says that the R/R do draw a small amount of current when connected in the system and have been designed that way for many years, but didn't remember when as it has been a long time.
I just rechecked the R/R on my 18 Vanguard with the same multimeter and it indicated 1.4 AMPS, got another multimeter out and it indicated 1.4 Milliamps! Replaced the battery in the first meter and it now shows 1.4 Milliamps. I know better than to trust the reading on one multimeter. I have 5 or 6 multimeters, I keep two in my mobile service tool boxes for that same reason.
So, you are correct with your comments about the B&S charging systems and I apologize to you for my not making sure that my test equipment was working properly before I started yapping in this post!!
When I mentioned that Scag still uses the charging system isolation type key switch to my buddy at B&S, his comment was that many OEMs that offer different brands of engine options on their machines prefer to use that type of electrical system as it covers all situations. He also commented about the electronic control modules on machines, I gather that some OEMs keep the modules live and others don't, not sure why.
Anyway, take care!!
Later
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
Just got an email from my buddy at Briggs & Stratton, he says that the R/R do draw a small amount of current when connected in the system and have been designed that way for many years, but didn't remember when as it has been a long time.
I just rechecked the R/R on my 18 Vanguard with the same multimeter and it indicated 1.4 AMPS, got another multimeter out and it indicated 1.4 Milliamps! Replaced the battery in the first meter and it now shows 1.4 Milliamps. I know better than to trust the reading on one multimeter. I have 5 or 6 multimeters, I keep two in my mobile service tool boxes for that same reason.
So, you are correct with your comments about the B&S charging systems and I apologize to you for my not making sure that my test equipment was working properly before I started yapping in this post!!
When I mentioned that Scag still uses the charging system isolation type key switch to my buddy at B&S, his comment was that many OEMs that offer different brands of engine options on their machines prefer to use that type of electrical system as it covers all situations. He also commented about the electronic control modules on machines, I gather that some OEMs keep the modules live and others don't, not sure why.
Anyway, take care!!
Later
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
#31
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
It's Ok Mackie. We all have bad days, and I also got carried away, so I also apologize. I was also doing some digging and came across a patent for a small engine regulator/rectifier that could be connected to the battery, but not cause excessive discharge. The patent date was in 1986.
Kohler has for several years said that their regulators should be connected directly to the battery, or the battery side of the starter solenoid. Mostly to reduce the chance of power spikes. Remember Kohler has been fighting power spikes to their ignition modules, as well has roasting ECU's on the EFI engines. Which was the main reason for all the electric changes to the ignition modules over the years.
1.4 milliamp sounds about right, The Briggs regulator requires a minimum of 5 volts input for the output side to work.
Kohler has for several years said that their regulators should be connected directly to the battery, or the battery side of the starter solenoid. Mostly to reduce the chance of power spikes. Remember Kohler has been fighting power spikes to their ignition modules, as well has roasting ECU's on the EFI engines. Which was the main reason for all the electric changes to the ignition modules over the years.
1.4 milliamp sounds about right, The Briggs regulator requires a minimum of 5 volts input for the output side to work.
#32
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Hi ILENGINE,
Thank you for the regulator info and date. My 2008 Scag Tiger Cubs original 26 B&S ELS engine at 450 hours had 70 PSI comp in the L/H cylinder and a leakdown test showed bad or stuck rings. It powered up and operated fine, but sneezed at low idle. I had already replaced the intake manifold, head gaskets, valve adjustment, not wanting to bother with an overhaul on a 44P777 engine, I repowered with a new 49M977 two years ago, and the R/R problems started. On the 3rd R/R on this engine and I think due to poor grounding of the cooling baffle on which the R/R is mounted, I installed an aux #10 ground wire and have been OK so far.
Now, that we have discussed these charging systems and I'm more comfortable about them, (bear in mind that I'm old school 60s-70s) I'm thinking about removing the charging system output from the key switch and going direct to the battery positive. I'll do it so I can restore the original configuration easily if need be.
Other than minor charging system problems, I like the 49M977 engine, but I see that it has been discontinued and replaced the 49T877 which appears to be basically the same.
My buddy at Briggs "suggested" that I rewire the charging system direct and stop fussing about it, I guess that he knows me better than I realized!!! LOL
Later
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
Thank you for the regulator info and date. My 2008 Scag Tiger Cubs original 26 B&S ELS engine at 450 hours had 70 PSI comp in the L/H cylinder and a leakdown test showed bad or stuck rings. It powered up and operated fine, but sneezed at low idle. I had already replaced the intake manifold, head gaskets, valve adjustment, not wanting to bother with an overhaul on a 44P777 engine, I repowered with a new 49M977 two years ago, and the R/R problems started. On the 3rd R/R on this engine and I think due to poor grounding of the cooling baffle on which the R/R is mounted, I installed an aux #10 ground wire and have been OK so far.
Now, that we have discussed these charging systems and I'm more comfortable about them, (bear in mind that I'm old school 60s-70s) I'm thinking about removing the charging system output from the key switch and going direct to the battery positive. I'll do it so I can restore the original configuration easily if need be.
Other than minor charging system problems, I like the 49M977 engine, but I see that it has been discontinued and replaced the 49T877 which appears to be basically the same.
My buddy at Briggs "suggested" that I rewire the charging system direct and stop fussing about it, I guess that he knows me better than I realized!!! LOL
Later
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
#33
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
Grounding of the regulator has always been a big fuss for engines, since they went to the plastic blower housings. Kohler went from a ground wire, to a grounding strap, to a silver bolt for better grounding of the regulator, and are now going back to a grounding wire. The briggs that I have seen here lately have the regulator attached to one of the metal cylinder baffles. You know after thinking about it some more. Grounding issues have caused more problems then any other, be it on mower engines, or automobiles, or trailer lights.
#34
M
motoman
M
motoman
Yea, grounding also very important to the "electronic" stuff. Perhaps readers should always look at chassis ground straps and the hardware holding them onto the metal such as the star washers which are meant to bite. Also paint will insulate or create resistance to good grounds (return path for current into the electrical system) . If you have an EFI (electronic fuel injection system) such ground connections are even more sensitive IMO. Sure glad to be in a forum with stand up- guys with class!!
#35
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Hi Troops,
Attached are some pics of additional ground cables that I have added to my 2008 Scag Tiger Cub repower. This is the 3rd regulator rectifier on this engine and hopefully the last! I was able to determine that the metal cooling baffle on which the R/R in mounted was not suitably grounded after the 2nd R/R quit and then added the #10 grounding wire. I drilled a hole in the tab on the front of the engine crankcase and installed two extra grounding cables to the negative terminal on the battery.
This B&S 30 HP Commercial Turf Series engine so far has been a great engine. Aluminum intake manifold, Cyclonic Air Filtration System and other refinements have brought this series of B&S engines to a higher level of design and performance than the ELS and Intek engines were.
Check out the pics!
Mad Mackie in CT where it is now snowing!!!
Attached are some pics of additional ground cables that I have added to my 2008 Scag Tiger Cub repower. This is the 3rd regulator rectifier on this engine and hopefully the last! I was able to determine that the metal cooling baffle on which the R/R in mounted was not suitably grounded after the 2nd R/R quit and then added the #10 grounding wire. I drilled a hole in the tab on the front of the engine crankcase and installed two extra grounding cables to the negative terminal on the battery.
This B&S 30 HP Commercial Turf Series engine so far has been a great engine. Aluminum intake manifold, Cyclonic Air Filtration System and other refinements have brought this series of B&S engines to a higher level of design and performance than the ELS and Intek engines were.
Check out the pics!
Mad Mackie in CT where it is now snowing!!!
#36
F
Fr Anthony
This problem seems to have been solved by placing a zip tie around the safety switch. The mower is working fine.
F
Fr Anthony
My six month old Ariens 46 inch has killed two batteries, one brand new. As a friend had a similar problem i think his solution is mine also. Somehow the seat safety switch is killing these batteries. He had to take two new batteries back for replacement before he solved the problem: he disconnected the seat safety switch. On my Ariens the motor was running, the parking brake was set, I stepped off the tractor and the motor died. When I tried to start it up no sound at all...the battery was dead. Anyone else with the same problem?
This problem seems to have been solved by placing a zip tie around the safety switch. The mower is working fine.
#37
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
You really need to get the wiring diagram for your machine so you can properly diagnose the problem. The seat switch may still be working properly, but reacting to another situation in the system that could come back to haunt or hurt the machine operator.