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Is the Kohler Courage really that bad?
#1
alienball
alienball
I recently purchased a 5 year old Ariens Zero Turn with a 23 hp Kohler Courage engine. Runs great, other than it burns the grass if i sit too long in one spot. Seller claimed it had about 150 hrs. Should I be worried? The Kohlers don't seem to get much love on this board. Thanks
#2
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
The courage engine does not have a good rep with the servicing tech on this forum, because we see to many of them in our shops. Just like any engine, you can have a lemon once in awhile. It seem to many of us there a too many lemons in this engine basket.
#3
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
The problem with the courage is it seems like the bugs never get worked out. Fix the cracking block problem, then they have camshaft problems, Fix the camshaft problem, then it was water running into the starter and causing corrosion. Fix the starter issue, and then it was leaking valve cover gaskets. It is a ongoing wicked stepchild.
#4
alienball
alienball
Which Kohlers were the worst?
#6
Ric
The Kohler Courage in my opinion is a good engine and there's nothing wrong with the courage if you maintain it the way it needs to be maintained. I've run three different courage motors in the last seven years in a lawn-care business (hundreds of hours) and never have had a problem with any of the three.
Ric
I recently purchased a 5 year old Ariens Zero Turn with a 23 hp Kohler Courage engine. Runs great, other than it burns the grass if i sit too long in one spot. Seller claimed it had about 150 hrs. Should I be worried? The Kohlers don't seem to get much love on this board. Thanks
The Kohler Courage in my opinion is a good engine and there's nothing wrong with the courage if you maintain it the way it needs to be maintained. I've run three different courage motors in the last seven years in a lawn-care business (hundreds of hours) and never have had a problem with any of the three.
#7
reynoldston
reynoldston
When you have cracked engine cases on engines with very few hours it has nothing with as to how well a engine been maintained. This seems to be the problim on the Kohler courage engine. I really don't know what you need to do prevent this from happening. Maybe its the way it is operated, low RPMs??? maybe someone has a better idea.
#8
Ric
What the problems are is that people don't know kohler engines. It doesn't make sense that you would have these problems with engines going bad and have other people have the same engines and have nothing going wrong.
Ric
When you have cracked engine cases on engines with very few hours it has nothing with as to how well a engine been maintained. This seems to be the problim on the Kohler courage engine. I really don't know what you need to do prevent this from happening. Maybe its the way it is operated, low RPMs??? maybe someone has a better idea.
What the problems are is that people don't know kohler engines. It doesn't make sense that you would have these problems with engines going bad and have other people have the same engines and have nothing going wrong.
#9
reynoldston
reynoldston
OK this is all well and good but just what is there to know? I think that what I was asking. There just has to be a reason manufacture? poor owner operation? I know one person has no trouble and the next doses WHY
#10
Ric
I have a few questions? You said When you have cracked engine cases on engines with very few hours it has nothing with as to how well a engine been maintained. Was this your engine and did you buy it new?
Ric
OK this is all well and good but just what is there to know? I think that what I was asking. There just has to be a reason manufacture? poor owner operation? I know one person has no trouble and the next doses WHY
I have a few questions? You said When you have cracked engine cases on engines with very few hours it has nothing with as to how well a engine been maintained. Was this your engine and did you buy it new?
#11
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Every engine manufacturer has a bad line of engines, which we have all seen. It does not matter if it is well maintained or not. Honda has the best engines I've seen, but I would never touch the line they now use for the push mowers. Even worse than the Courage line. I could say this about a Briggs line, tecumseh line and even Kaws. Just my opinion which some don't think is worth much, because I am not a professional, just a homeowner and garage mechanic.
#12
reynoldston
This is a repair job for a customer, that being said I have know idea how this engine was used or as a matter of fact when I say low hours I may be talking through my hat because I don't know? I guess I am just going by how things look and there was no wear inside the engine. Also this is only one repair job I am talking about, so maybe it was a defect in the casting. Other then that I am seeing the same problem on the web when I was looking for a reasons this engine cracked. You said people don't know Kohler engines is the reason they crack as the way I read it? Also when I did this cracked case repair job I though the engine was very poorly designed, for one thing it had no bearings but for bearings just holes bored into the case and everything just ran on the aluminum bored holes. Also it had plastic parts like the oil pump and cam gears. Just my thought on it but I may be wrong but just the design of how the engine is made is causing it to crack. I am open for any other reason. Yes I know Kohler engines and through the years like the K, Magnum, Command models they are one of the best engines made.
reynoldston
I have a few questions? You said When you have cracked engine cases on engines with very few hours it has nothing with as to how well a engine been maintained. Was this your engine and did you buy it new?
This is a repair job for a customer, that being said I have know idea how this engine was used or as a matter of fact when I say low hours I may be talking through my hat because I don't know? I guess I am just going by how things look and there was no wear inside the engine. Also this is only one repair job I am talking about, so maybe it was a defect in the casting. Other then that I am seeing the same problem on the web when I was looking for a reasons this engine cracked. You said people don't know Kohler engines is the reason they crack as the way I read it? Also when I did this cracked case repair job I though the engine was very poorly designed, for one thing it had no bearings but for bearings just holes bored into the case and everything just ran on the aluminum bored holes. Also it had plastic parts like the oil pump and cam gears. Just my thought on it but I may be wrong but just the design of how the engine is made is causing it to crack. I am open for any other reason. Yes I know Kohler engines and through the years like the K, Magnum, Command models they are one of the best engines made.
#13
P
possum
P
possum
I myself would really like to know any and all information from real life use of the Courage single engines that has prolonged their life. I think it would be useful in the future for all who own them that come on here with concerns. Someone who has gotten several hundred hours from one would in my opinion be very useful. My dealer has seen only one Courage twin fail in the last few years. He sold and serviced it himself. The Zturn it failed on was used to mow a cemetary was over two years old and had 757 hours on the clock. He had changed the oil in it just one hour before it failed by slowing down and locking up. Engine was never torn down by the fellow who bought it for scrap. He replaced it with a engine from a wrecked mower. I looked at the engine myself and it indeed was full of new oil and locked up. Oil pump failure was the general thought. That is the only one I have seen from that dealer. He is a small dealer. The most important thing I can think of on these engines is why they fail and how to prevent it.
#14
L
Lawnranger
I'll share my experience with Kohler engines. I have the "dreaded" SV 590 on my Troy-Bilt Super Bronco riding mower. I acquired this mower from a friend when it was two years old. He upgraded to a zero turn Toro and this Toro has the same Kohler single cylinder engine on it. He and I maintain a cemetery and it takes me about two hours to mow my half. I mow the cemetery once a month. I also mow my yard and the yard next door which takes one hour and I do this at least once a week but lately twice a week. I maintain the property at a church which takes me about seven hours to mow (I do not know how many acres) and I cut this every other week and last I cut a few lawns which adds another three hours a month. I do not have an hour meter on this mower, yet, so I cannot tell you how many hours it has on it but I have been using this mower in this capacity for four years and he used it extensively for the two years prior to that. Our mowing season starts in April and ends in October so for seven months out of the year this mower will see a lot of use for a residential unit. I come up with approximately 25 hours per month and I know this is not a lot for a professional but I do not do this for my primary income so I do not consider myself a professional.
Now if you take an average of 25 hours a month and multiply that by the mowing season here which is seven months, you get 175 hours a year. Multiply 175 by 4 (years that I owned the mower) and you get 700 hours on the machine. I do not know how many hours my friend put on the machine but I will guess at least 150 on the conservative side and this puts the total at 850 hours. The 850 hours is an approximation so give or take 15% either way but that still makes the hours on the engine over 700. This is the original engine and it has never been opened up. I have had to replace the valve cover gasket due to leaking but other than that I have not made any repairs to the engine.
Now on to maintenance. I change the engine oil every 50 hours (approximately every other month) and I use the generic blue bottle oil you can buy at Walmart. I also use a product called M.O.A. manufactured by BG Products. I have extensive knowledge and experience (over 27 years) with M.O.A. and I will not run a four stroke engine without using the product. I check the oil before starting the engine, clean or change the air filter as necessary and perform any other needed maintenance as required. I even go the extra mile by lubricating parts that do not have a grease fitting such as the front axle/wheel bushings and I clean the deck after each use by checking the underside and using my leaf blower on the top to remove any moisture-retaining debris. I probably spend more time doing all the little "extras" compared to the average home owner but for some strange reason my mower lasts a lot longer and requires a lot less repair. I can replace the spindle bearings for $1.75 each and it takes about 15 minutes to rebuild a spindle. I usually replace the bearings once a season whether they need it or not as I want to prevent a bearing from going bad when I'm in the middle of a job.
I know I got off on a rabbit trail but I wanted to share my experience with you as requested by possum. Why do some Courage engines last longer than others? I cannot say for sure but I do know that I did not get one of the lemons. I plan to use this mower for another season or two and then purchase a zero turn (maybe my buddy's Toro when he upgrades again). Maintenance plays a large role when it comes to longevity but some of these engines are failing early. General Motors had a bad casting at the foundry and many small block 305 c.i.d. engines would consume coolant but not leak it externally and it was discovered there was a crack in the lifter valley that would allow a small amount of coolant to seep into the engine over a period of months. This small amount of coolant would not cause the familiar "chocolate milkshake" but only drain the overflow bottle over a period of several months. Does Kohler have the same problem such as a bad foundry casting? Maybe, but percentage wise I would like to know just how many Courage engines failed. Keep in mind that there are thousands upon thousands of Courage engines out there so again, percentage wise, how bad is it really?
I hope this adds to the discussion in a positive way and that someone will benefit.
L
Lawnranger
I myself would really like to know any and all information from real life use of the Courage single engines that has prolonged their life. I think it would be useful in the future for all who own them that come on here with concerns. Someone who has gotten several hundred hours from one would in my opinion be very useful. My dealer has seen only one Courage twin fail in the last few years. He sold and serviced it himself. The Zturn it failed on was used to mow a cemetary was over two years old and had 757 hours on the clock. He had changed the oil in it just one hour before it failed by slowing down and locking up. Engine was never torn down by the fellow who bought it for scrap. He replaced it with a engine from a wrecked mower. I looked at the engine myself and it indeed was full of new oil and locked up. Oil pump failure was the general thought. That is the only one I have seen from that dealer. He is a small dealer. The most important thing I can think of on these engines is why they fail and how to prevent it.
I'll share my experience with Kohler engines. I have the "dreaded" SV 590 on my Troy-Bilt Super Bronco riding mower. I acquired this mower from a friend when it was two years old. He upgraded to a zero turn Toro and this Toro has the same Kohler single cylinder engine on it. He and I maintain a cemetery and it takes me about two hours to mow my half. I mow the cemetery once a month. I also mow my yard and the yard next door which takes one hour and I do this at least once a week but lately twice a week. I maintain the property at a church which takes me about seven hours to mow (I do not know how many acres) and I cut this every other week and last I cut a few lawns which adds another three hours a month. I do not have an hour meter on this mower, yet, so I cannot tell you how many hours it has on it but I have been using this mower in this capacity for four years and he used it extensively for the two years prior to that. Our mowing season starts in April and ends in October so for seven months out of the year this mower will see a lot of use for a residential unit. I come up with approximately 25 hours per month and I know this is not a lot for a professional but I do not do this for my primary income so I do not consider myself a professional.
Now if you take an average of 25 hours a month and multiply that by the mowing season here which is seven months, you get 175 hours a year. Multiply 175 by 4 (years that I owned the mower) and you get 700 hours on the machine. I do not know how many hours my friend put on the machine but I will guess at least 150 on the conservative side and this puts the total at 850 hours. The 850 hours is an approximation so give or take 15% either way but that still makes the hours on the engine over 700. This is the original engine and it has never been opened up. I have had to replace the valve cover gasket due to leaking but other than that I have not made any repairs to the engine.
Now on to maintenance. I change the engine oil every 50 hours (approximately every other month) and I use the generic blue bottle oil you can buy at Walmart. I also use a product called M.O.A. manufactured by BG Products. I have extensive knowledge and experience (over 27 years) with M.O.A. and I will not run a four stroke engine without using the product. I check the oil before starting the engine, clean or change the air filter as necessary and perform any other needed maintenance as required. I even go the extra mile by lubricating parts that do not have a grease fitting such as the front axle/wheel bushings and I clean the deck after each use by checking the underside and using my leaf blower on the top to remove any moisture-retaining debris. I probably spend more time doing all the little "extras" compared to the average home owner but for some strange reason my mower lasts a lot longer and requires a lot less repair. I can replace the spindle bearings for $1.75 each and it takes about 15 minutes to rebuild a spindle. I usually replace the bearings once a season whether they need it or not as I want to prevent a bearing from going bad when I'm in the middle of a job.
I know I got off on a rabbit trail but I wanted to share my experience with you as requested by possum. Why do some Courage engines last longer than others? I cannot say for sure but I do know that I did not get one of the lemons. I plan to use this mower for another season or two and then purchase a zero turn (maybe my buddy's Toro when he upgrades again). Maintenance plays a large role when it comes to longevity but some of these engines are failing early. General Motors had a bad casting at the foundry and many small block 305 c.i.d. engines would consume coolant but not leak it externally and it was discovered there was a crack in the lifter valley that would allow a small amount of coolant to seep into the engine over a period of months. This small amount of coolant would not cause the familiar "chocolate milkshake" but only drain the overflow bottle over a period of several months. Does Kohler have the same problem such as a bad foundry casting? Maybe, but percentage wise I would like to know just how many Courage engines failed. Keep in mind that there are thousands upon thousands of Courage engines out there so again, percentage wise, how bad is it really?
I hope this adds to the discussion in a positive way and that someone will benefit.
#15
B
benski
B
benski
I've seen an inordinate number of Courage singles totalled out in my small one person shop.:frown: They're just not built to a high enough standard, it seems, that the rest of the Kohler line is. As I often joke to myself, "It takes a lot of courage to own one of these".:biggrin: For the couple of folks that have a newly purchased one of these Courage motors, I recommend synthetic oil, and don't run it hard through high load situations. (i.e., tall and/or wet grass.)
#16
L
leej
Could you be a little more specific on what types of failures you see the Courage singles.
I'm compairing these to Honda's GCV, Briggs L-head (Antique technology), Toro Chinese engines and Kawasaki. I'm impressed with the forced oil Kaw, but hate the aluminum cylinder on GCV's. L-head is o-o-old tech that burns exh valves and the poor combustion chamber builds carbon. The Courage XT8 has cast-iron bore and crank ball bearings. I have to wonder what fails so often and why synthetic oil?
L
leej
I've seen an inordinate number of Courage singles totalled out in my small one person shop.:frown: They're just not built to a high enough standard, it seems, that the rest of the Kohler line is. As I often joke to myself, "It takes a lot of courage to own one of these".:biggrin: For the couple of folks that have a newly purchased one of these Courage motors, I recommend synthetic oil, and don't run it hard through high load situations. (i.e., tall and/or wet grass.)
Could you be a little more specific on what types of failures you see the Courage singles.
I'm compairing these to Honda's GCV, Briggs L-head (Antique technology), Toro Chinese engines and Kawasaki. I'm impressed with the forced oil Kaw, but hate the aluminum cylinder on GCV's. L-head is o-o-old tech that burns exh valves and the poor combustion chamber builds carbon. The Courage XT8 has cast-iron bore and crank ball bearings. I have to wonder what fails so often and why synthetic oil?
#17
Ric
When I said What the problems are is that people don't know Kohler engines. It meant how to take care of and preform the proper maintenance.
You have people that use the wrong motor oil to start with and they recommend using the synthetic for any number of things which in reality is nothing more than a myth. The only advantage to a synthetic is that it will provide better starting in extreme cold. That crap should never touch a mower engine. That's the first problem. Read the owners manual, Kohler recommends conventional petroleum-based detergent oils.
Change the oil and oil filter every 50 hrs without fail and start with the new filter, fill it half full of oil and let it soak while you drain the oil and remove the old filter. Install the new filter and add no more than 1 1/2 quarts of oil ( keep the oil level within the safe operating range on the dipstick only ) then leave it alone and you'll never have a problem with a Kohler Courage engine.
Ric
OK this is all well and good but just what is there to know? I think that what I was asking. There just has to be a reason manufacture? poor owner operation? I know one person has no trouble and the next doses WHY
When I said What the problems are is that people don't know Kohler engines. It meant how to take care of and preform the proper maintenance.
You have people that use the wrong motor oil to start with and they recommend using the synthetic for any number of things which in reality is nothing more than a myth. The only advantage to a synthetic is that it will provide better starting in extreme cold. That crap should never touch a mower engine. That's the first problem. Read the owners manual, Kohler recommends conventional petroleum-based detergent oils.
Change the oil and oil filter every 50 hrs without fail and start with the new filter, fill it half full of oil and let it soak while you drain the oil and remove the old filter. Install the new filter and add no more than 1 1/2 quarts of oil ( keep the oil level within the safe operating range on the dipstick only ) then leave it alone and you'll never have a problem with a Kohler Courage engine.
#18
W
WriteAway
W
WriteAway
New to the forum, so please correct me if this is not the place to bring this up:
I'm on the verge of buying a new Husqvarna 6021P with the 149cc Kohler Courage engine for ordinary homeowner use - not commercial use. Do the same issues regarding build quality apply to the smaller motors like this one? One that will see lighter usage, but is hoped to last me for at least 15 years, like my old B&S mower did?
Assuming I tightly follow the recommended maintenance (which I try, but can't always do), should this motor have a reasonable lifespan for a non-pro user?
And I've read here and elsewhere about the carb issues with this motor. Are these included in the overall perception of lack of quality regarding the Kohler?
Seems like the low-end push mower user is faced with mostly bad choices.
I appreciate your feedback, even if it is tells me I need to shop elsewhere. :confused2:
I'm on the verge of buying a new Husqvarna 6021P with the 149cc Kohler Courage engine for ordinary homeowner use - not commercial use. Do the same issues regarding build quality apply to the smaller motors like this one? One that will see lighter usage, but is hoped to last me for at least 15 years, like my old B&S mower did?
Assuming I tightly follow the recommended maintenance (which I try, but can't always do), should this motor have a reasonable lifespan for a non-pro user?
And I've read here and elsewhere about the carb issues with this motor. Are these included in the overall perception of lack of quality regarding the Kohler?
Seems like the low-end push mower user is faced with mostly bad choices.
I appreciate your feedback, even if it is tells me I need to shop elsewhere. :confused2:
#19
P
possum
P
possum
The engines spoken of so much as to failure are not the same engines as the ones on push mowers. About the only complaint I see on them is bad carbs and bad carb parts. This spring I saw 3 husky types with the little Courages on them junked at my dealer for bad carbs. That being said I see several here in town that do a fine job and are a few years old. For the most part the smaller Courage line is just another Honda China knock off. There is a good many engines to be had on various branded lawnmowers if a person dislikes the China Honda engines. The flathead Briggs engines still are a good running engine, there is the ohv briggs engines that seem to be good, both are available in several brands. There is no shortage of engines for cheap lawnmowers.
#20
W
WriteAway
Thanks for the input - that helps. Then I take it that the Courage motors are non-US-made?
W
WriteAway
The engines spoken of so much as to failure are not the same engines as the ones on push mowers. About the only complaint I see on them is bad carbs and bad carb parts. This spring I saw 3 husky types with the little Courages on them junked at my dealer for bad carbs. That being said I see several here in town that do a fine job and are a few years old. For the most part the smaller Courage line is just another Honda China knock off. There is a good many engines to be had on various branded lawnmowers if a person dislikes the China Honda engines. The flathead Briggs engines still are a good running engine, there is the ohv briggs engines that seem to be good, both are available in several brands. There is no shortage of engines for cheap lawnmowers.
Thanks for the input - that helps. Then I take it that the Courage motors are non-US-made?
#21
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
The small push engine courage, I don't know about the larger rider engines, are manufacturered at the Kohler plant in China.
#22
K
kwak
The larger singles and the twins are made in Mississippi.
K
kwak
Thanks for the input - that helps. Then I take it that the Courage motors are non-US-made?
The larger singles and the twins are made in Mississippi.
#23
W
WriteAway
W
WriteAway
Thanks for all the input. I was hoping the Courage might be US-made. Back to the research for me...
#24
L
leej
L
leej
It seems that it's hard to find US made engines on walk-behind mowers. Even looking at the B&S website, it's hard to determine if they're US made, or even if they have cast-iron cylinders. At least this Kohler has cast-iron; hence better than anything with aluminum bore for long term use. The OHV is definitely a better design than the old L-head engines (flathead). The OHV engines are able to develop more HP per CC and run cooler due to better air-flow through the engine. My only concern is the QC and tolerances. If these are held to decent standards, this should be a good engine. Of course there's the carb. According to a couple of shop mechanics that I spoke to, the auto-choke system has problems, as well. The bi-metal temp sensor can cause re-starting problems when hot, which is a problem down here when it gets so hot. I've not used this engine. I'm just looking and compairing and will continue looking, since these have so many complaints.
#25
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Why I don't like Courage. Got my third one in two weeks yesterday with oil leaking issues. First one, rod let loose, hole in cylinder, half cover bolts loose, 3yrs old, we do all service. Kohler paying for short block customer labor. Second one, leaking head gasket, valve cover gasket, crankcase gasket, push rods bent, 2 years old. Warranty. Third one, oil squirting out the oil sensor electrical connection blade and leaky head gasket, 2 years old. First 18 hp single, second 20 HP single, third 25 HP twin. Great money for me, but unhappy customers.
#26
C
chance123
C
chance123
I just posted mt thoughts in the "Kohler cracked block" topic in this forum. In reading the last post it reminded me about another thing. "Loose bolts." Case and head bolts. Absolute garbage!!!!!!!!!!
#27
Doby
Doby
Having a Cub with a Courage 18 that just failed after 76.4 hours had me wondering if it was me. I've used Kohler motor oil and filters and take care of my stuff. That is why I decided to search for a reason why it failed. It was running at idle burned a large amount of smoke then made a very loud bang and died before I could shut it down. Oh that's 76.4 hours in four years. You tube video also show issues with these engines. Should I replace it with Command? Any chance Kohler will back up a claim?
#28
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Your best bet is to take it to a Kohler dealer and have them work with their Kohler rep. You don't say how old this unit is and what type of unit it was in. Was it a commercial or residential unit. Your Cub dealer should also be able to help you.
#29
Doby
Purchased 08/2008 strictly used as residential and it's in good shape not abused in the least bit.
Thanks for the feedback.
Doby
Your best bet is to take it to a Kohler dealer and have them work with their Kohler rep. You don't say how old this unit is and what type of unit it was in. Was it a commercial or residential unit. Your Cub dealer should also be able to help you.
Purchased 08/2008 strictly used as residential and it's in good shape not abused in the least bit.
Thanks for the feedback.
Attachments
#30
O
oldschooljohn
O
oldschooljohn
Yes, Kholer Courage Really Is That Bad
I have a Husqvarna with a Kholer Courage. After just 77 hours of use, the motor ate it's valve. Kholer refuses to honor warranty, says the motor was overheated. I was just mowing the lawn, the same lawn I have mowed the same way for 10 years with a Sears/Briggs & Stratton tractor. Yes, it had oil, and yes I even cleaned all the debris out of the cooling fins. No way the motor was overheated. It's just a piece of garbage.
I noticed someone here posted that you have to be careful with this motor when cutting high or wet grass. That's a little silly, don't you think? If the motor can't handle high grass, it shouldn't be used on a tractor.
If you don't mind paying a $700 repair bill every 77 hours or so, definitely buy a Kholer Courage. Otherwise, avoid.
I have a Husqvarna with a Kholer Courage. After just 77 hours of use, the motor ate it's valve. Kholer refuses to honor warranty, says the motor was overheated. I was just mowing the lawn, the same lawn I have mowed the same way for 10 years with a Sears/Briggs & Stratton tractor. Yes, it had oil, and yes I even cleaned all the debris out of the cooling fins. No way the motor was overheated. It's just a piece of garbage.
I noticed someone here posted that you have to be careful with this motor when cutting high or wet grass. That's a little silly, don't you think? If the motor can't handle high grass, it shouldn't be used on a tractor.
If you don't mind paying a $700 repair bill every 77 hours or so, definitely buy a Kholer Courage. Otherwise, avoid.
#31
C
chance123
C
chance123
Re: Yes, Kholer Courage Really Is That Bad
I too have had more than one break a valve with less than 100 hours. That engine is a jinx. I can understand 1 or 2 bad ones, but what I am seeing is unacceptable!I have a Husqvarna with a Kholer Courage. After just 77 hours of use, the motor ate it's valve.
#32
M
motoman
M
motoman
In my vast experience of owning a total of 1 (one) ride around and contributing to this forum my ideas on overheat I will say I believe that owners of air cooled lawnmowers and tractors are always
"close to the edge." By that I mean in summer especially, and with certain of the options in place
(baggers) the air cooled heads are always close to destructive levels of heat. You are probably tired of my rants, but someone tell me why manufacturers won't put dash or bracket mounted overheat warning lights on board. Their total cost could not be more than $5-$10. However once outfitted they must talk about it in the owners manual. So the wording might be "Caution if dash light is on pull over and stop work or extreme engine damage may occur."
The typical owner might say to himself "why can't brand x build a decent motor?" The answer is brand x is just as good as brand y, but brand y decides it has a marketing advantage by not outfitting their units with a warning light, and to shift the inherent overheat characteristic to the owner. (Ref the case in this thread). If you believe consumer reports little bar charts of reliability then the brands are rather reliable. Perhaps manufacturers play the satistical game that most owners will underuse their mowers and never stress them. These units last longer on average.
What seems to creep through (as with cars) is the buffering which repair shops give the manufacturers. No criticism is intended here, however it seems that the fact that some owners may indeed allow the fan intake to become clogged with debris can be used to cover the thin margin of saftety AC units have and to blame the owner. If no manufacturers address the warning light issue then all can skate along. How many similar issues do you professionals have with properly maintained liquid cooled units? rolleyes:
"close to the edge." By that I mean in summer especially, and with certain of the options in place
(baggers) the air cooled heads are always close to destructive levels of heat. You are probably tired of my rants, but someone tell me why manufacturers won't put dash or bracket mounted overheat warning lights on board. Their total cost could not be more than $5-$10. However once outfitted they must talk about it in the owners manual. So the wording might be "Caution if dash light is on pull over and stop work or extreme engine damage may occur."
The typical owner might say to himself "why can't brand x build a decent motor?" The answer is brand x is just as good as brand y, but brand y decides it has a marketing advantage by not outfitting their units with a warning light, and to shift the inherent overheat characteristic to the owner. (Ref the case in this thread). If you believe consumer reports little bar charts of reliability then the brands are rather reliable. Perhaps manufacturers play the satistical game that most owners will underuse their mowers and never stress them. These units last longer on average.
What seems to creep through (as with cars) is the buffering which repair shops give the manufacturers. No criticism is intended here, however it seems that the fact that some owners may indeed allow the fan intake to become clogged with debris can be used to cover the thin margin of saftety AC units have and to blame the owner. If no manufacturers address the warning light issue then all can skate along. How many similar issues do you professionals have with properly maintained liquid cooled units? rolleyes:
#33
Ric
Ric
In the last couple of months there has been any number of recalls on probably a dozen different mower brands from things like bad gas filters, bad seals in gas tanks and so on.
The question of this thread, Is the Kohler Courage really that bad? Now wouldn't you think that if the Kohler Courage was that bad or had the major problem that people say, that Kohler being a major player in the industry would have had a recall on the Courage to fix the problem?
The question of this thread, Is the Kohler Courage really that bad? Now wouldn't you think that if the Kohler Courage was that bad or had the major problem that people say, that Kohler being a major player in the industry would have had a recall on the Courage to fix the problem?
#34
C
chance123
C
chance123
The problems with this engine is not overheating. We service air cooled machines that run 10 hours a day in 100+ degrees temp working hard and under heavy loads with not even a hint of overheating. The flywheel air vanes constantly blow air around the cyl fins and the fins on the head. The Courage engine obviously is a poor design. In the past 6 months I have had 2 valves broken, 1 flywheel magnet separate from the flywheel, 6 cracked blocks, many with loose head and crankcase bolts, and 4 with broken (plastic) cam gears. Something is wrong with this picture.
#35
M
motoman
But aren't recalls usually made to preserve life and limb? I could see a recall if e.g., spindle defective and blade will fly off...or bad gas lines can cause lawnmower to catch fire. Do manufacturers of lawn mowers care if they are at the bottom of the consumer reports reliability list if sales are good?
M
motoman
In the last couple of months there has been any number of recalls on probably a dozen different mower brands from things like bad gas filters, bad seals in gas tanks and so on.
The question of this thread, Is the Kohler Courage really that bad? Now wouldn't you think that if the Kohler Courage was that bad or had the major problem that people say, that Kohler being a major player in the industry would have had a recall on the Courage to fix the problem?
But aren't recalls usually made to preserve life and limb? I could see a recall if e.g., spindle defective and blade will fly off...or bad gas lines can cause lawnmower to catch fire. Do manufacturers of lawn mowers care if they are at the bottom of the consumer reports reliability list if sales are good?
#36
Ric
CPSC is charged with protecting the public from unreasonable risks of injury or death associated with the use of the thousands of consumer products under the agency's jurisdiction. It is not up to the cpsc to make the call on the problems that people say they are having with the Kohler Courage engine. It's up to Kohler to make the call.
That's why I ask wouldn't you think that if the Kohler Courage was that bad or had the major problems that people say, that Kohler being a major player in the industry would have had a recall on the Courage to fix the problem? Or is this just a case of operator error or people just getting a bad engine (a lemon) now and then out of the thousands and thousands that are out there running on machines today.
Ric
But aren't recalls usually made to preserve life and limb? I could see a recall if e.g., spindle defective and blade will fly off...or bad gas lines can cause lawnmower to catch fire. Do manufacturers of lawn mowers care if they are at the bottom of the consumer reports reliability list if sales are good?
CPSC is charged with protecting the public from unreasonable risks of injury or death associated with the use of the thousands of consumer products under the agency's jurisdiction. It is not up to the cpsc to make the call on the problems that people say they are having with the Kohler Courage engine. It's up to Kohler to make the call.
That's why I ask wouldn't you think that if the Kohler Courage was that bad or had the major problems that people say, that Kohler being a major player in the industry would have had a recall on the Courage to fix the problem? Or is this just a case of operator error or people just getting a bad engine (a lemon) now and then out of the thousands and thousands that are out there running on machines today.
#37
M
motoman
You experts who see all the designs must chime in here. When you say "design" ...these things are not Porsche engines, and aren't the cylinders and heads , and sumps about the same "design?" If not please tell us how they differ. If the Chinese really copy then aren't their "designs" the same ? Perhaps it is "material" such as metal alloy that differ. Mr Chance, each time we chat you emphasize that there are no heat problems in hot So Cal, but you mention failures that could be heat failures. For the benefit of the forum please tell us the brands you have and work on , and what kinds of failures you have, so there are some facts we can digest.
A word about plastic. Yes , I am leery of the stuff in many applications. But we now have 6 lb automobile wheels in carbon fiber (?about?) to be approved by DOT. There have been water pump impellers in plastic etc etc. Bullet proof lexan windows and vests , lawn mower cooling fans etc.
There is a huge amount of knowledge in this forum. Let's start sharing the good and the bad. :smile: :thumbsup:
M
motoman
The problems with this engine is not overheating. We service air cooled machines that run 10 hours a day in 100+ degrees temp working hard and under heavy loads with not even a hint of overheating. The flywheel air vanes constantly blow air around the cyl fins and the fins on the head. The Courage engine obviously is a poor design. In the past 6 months I have had 2 valves broken, 1 flywheel magnet separate from the flywheel, 6 cracked blocks, many with loose head and crankcase bolts, and 4 with broken (plastic) cam gears. Something is wrong with this picture.
You experts who see all the designs must chime in here. When you say "design" ...these things are not Porsche engines, and aren't the cylinders and heads , and sumps about the same "design?" If not please tell us how they differ. If the Chinese really copy then aren't their "designs" the same ? Perhaps it is "material" such as metal alloy that differ. Mr Chance, each time we chat you emphasize that there are no heat problems in hot So Cal, but you mention failures that could be heat failures. For the benefit of the forum please tell us the brands you have and work on , and what kinds of failures you have, so there are some facts we can digest.
A word about plastic. Yes , I am leery of the stuff in many applications. But we now have 6 lb automobile wheels in carbon fiber (?about?) to be approved by DOT. There have been water pump impellers in plastic etc etc. Bullet proof lexan windows and vests , lawn mower cooling fans etc.
There is a huge amount of knowledge in this forum. Let's start sharing the good and the bad. :smile: :thumbsup:
#38
P
possum
P
possum
There is no real good information as to why the Courage SV single engines have their short life. It cannot be all of them or the tractors they are installed on would be in a very large number of giant piles. There would also be a great deal more used parts for them available. So many tractors have them they must be made by now in the many hundred thousands if not millions. Just on this site there should be far more complaints one would think as well as the rest of the internet. I hear just as many complaints about the cheaper Briggs single cylinder engines on tractors but there must be alot of them that are doing all right as well or there would be more blown ones of those around as well. Not that it makes a person feel any better when he throttles up on a hot day and shoves his way through ten days worth of growth on a foxtail crabgrass patch or the same of common bermuda while the engine makes that tinny growell under load nor does it when done and the throttle goes all the way down and that ticking comes from under the hood like they do when hot. They are a great engine in so many ways. They start pretty good, love to rap out and work, have plenty of power, are easy on oil and gas, have easy to service filters, and cooling system. My dealer had perfect confidence in them until just one failed at only a few hours. Now he is worried about perhaps a bad run of them. He is concerned about getting any more tractors in with that engine. Just that one bad apple is shaking his confidence in them. It reminds me a bit of the little Tecumseh verticals that sometimes self destructed with heavy multi viscosity oils , many theories about what was going wrong but no real proof positive why some had trouble and some did not. The most interesting theory I have heard that makes sense for the cracked blocks is to much power from the single cylinder flexing the crank and putting stress on the block. The simplest one is the blocks are to thin and brittle to take the expansion and contraction of heating and cooling.
#39
M
maximus
M
maximus
Interesting that this conversation is taking place. I am currently dealing with a 18hp Courage motor failure. I have been doing extensive research on this as well.
The engine has 130 hours on it and I take care of this tractor like it was my child. It was diagnosed with a cracked block earlier today. The case cover bolts were all loose and it is suggested by the dealer that this weakens the integrity of the block and therefore allows the block to flex and crack.
They have had several of these come in and they are just stunned that Kohler refuses to initiate a recall.
The Kohler rep they work with said they know the issue exists but feel that it would cost millions to recall and would rather fix on an as needed basis.
To say that I am angry doesn't cover it. My mower is out of warranty even though it only has 130hrs and Kohler is pulling me through the rose bushes. My 4 year old mower is now essentially a total loss as the cost of repair places me in a bad spot, probably more than the value of the unit.
I'm not letting this one go as this company is simply not dealing with any sense of ethics here.
I hope this information helps someone on this forum.
The engine has 130 hours on it and I take care of this tractor like it was my child. It was diagnosed with a cracked block earlier today. The case cover bolts were all loose and it is suggested by the dealer that this weakens the integrity of the block and therefore allows the block to flex and crack.
They have had several of these come in and they are just stunned that Kohler refuses to initiate a recall.
The Kohler rep they work with said they know the issue exists but feel that it would cost millions to recall and would rather fix on an as needed basis.
To say that I am angry doesn't cover it. My mower is out of warranty even though it only has 130hrs and Kohler is pulling me through the rose bushes. My 4 year old mower is now essentially a total loss as the cost of repair places me in a bad spot, probably more than the value of the unit.
I'm not letting this one go as this company is simply not dealing with any sense of ethics here.
I hope this information helps someone on this forum.
#40
M
motoman
As I said before ... to be a fly on the wall of corporate damage control headquarters. Every thing is calculated as minimum loss to the company. A lot like your Kohler experience I baby equipment, always exceeding maintenance schedules. So when my shiny new Craftsman Intek 24 died with low operating hours I could not believe it. Yet voices on this forum nodded when I told them of the symptoms, and BS cheerfully sent two new heads complete to me. Their way out ( I guess ) is to abandon the Intek and let natural attrition "cure" the problem. I believe my mistake was to use the machine for its advertised purpose: mow 1-1/2 acres of grass and catch it in a 3 bag system.
There are numerous ways a formerly good product goes bad such as new sub suppliers, inadequate quality control and facility changes. Look at the ups and downs of the auto companies. Maybe the perceived satisfaction the professionals on this forum have for Japanese products is once again due to the diligence and tight QC that country still maintains. They do cost more, right?
M
motoman
Interesting that this conversation is taking place. I am currently dealing with a 18hp Courage motor failure. I have been doing extensive research on this as well.
The engine has 130 hours on it and I take care of this tractor like it was my child. It was diagnosed with a cracked block earlier today. The case cover bolts were all loose and it is suggested by the dealer that this weakens the integrity of the block and therefore allows the block to flex and crack.
They have had several of these come in and they are just stunned that Kohler refuses to initiate a recall.
The Kohler rep they work with said they know the issue exists but feel that it would cost millions to recall and would rather fix on an as needed basis.
To say that I am angry doesn't cover it. My mower is out of warranty even though it only has 130hrs and Kohler is pulling me through the rose bushes. My 4 year old mower is now essentially a total loss as the cost of repair places me in a bad spot, probably more than the value of the unit.
I'm not letting this one go as this company is simply not dealing with any sense of ethics here.
I hope this information helps someone on this forum.
As I said before ... to be a fly on the wall of corporate damage control headquarters. Every thing is calculated as minimum loss to the company. A lot like your Kohler experience I baby equipment, always exceeding maintenance schedules. So when my shiny new Craftsman Intek 24 died with low operating hours I could not believe it. Yet voices on this forum nodded when I told them of the symptoms, and BS cheerfully sent two new heads complete to me. Their way out ( I guess ) is to abandon the Intek and let natural attrition "cure" the problem. I believe my mistake was to use the machine for its advertised purpose: mow 1-1/2 acres of grass and catch it in a 3 bag system.
There are numerous ways a formerly good product goes bad such as new sub suppliers, inadequate quality control and facility changes. Look at the ups and downs of the auto companies. Maybe the perceived satisfaction the professionals on this forum have for Japanese products is once again due to the diligence and tight QC that country still maintains. They do cost more, right?
#41
C
chance123
Heat failures can usually be seen by discoloration of the engine material. The old engines were made out of cast iron which dissipates heat "much" slower than today's alloys. In the 60's in my motorcycle days I had a Triumph 500 cc motorcycle with cast iron barrels and I remember running it in over 100 degree temps for more than a half hour standing still (0 MPH)! There was "no" air blowing across the cyl fins and no cooling fan. It never over heated. I also had an Ariel square 4 engine where there were 2 cylinders fore and 2 aft. "THOSE" 2 rear cylinders "would" overheat because of the lack of space between them. I also remember polishing the sand casting marks off of the fins on an aluminum head only to notice an increase in head temp. (I reduced the surface area) You must remember that if you measure the surface area of the top and bottom of "each" cooling fin on these engines we work on today, that adds up to a "lot" of surface area. On top of that, today's aluminum dissipates heat almost instantly with the cooling fans we have on the flywheels.
Now, with regard to "this" Kohler engine, with all the problems that are happening, if they "are" heat related, then there is a design flaw, because the older Kohler engines do "not" have those problems working under the same working conditions.
I work on B&S, Kohler, Wisconson, (and Robin), Suzuki, Tecumseh (RIP), Clinton (not many still running) Kawasaki, and never seen overheating problems even with debris clogging the fins. Yes they would get hot, but not overheat.
C
chance123
Mr Chance, each time we chat you emphasize that there are no heat problems in hot So Cal, but you mention failures that could be heat failures. For the benefit of the forum please tell us the brands you have and work on , and what kinds of failures you have, so there are some facts we can digest.
Heat failures can usually be seen by discoloration of the engine material. The old engines were made out of cast iron which dissipates heat "much" slower than today's alloys. In the 60's in my motorcycle days I had a Triumph 500 cc motorcycle with cast iron barrels and I remember running it in over 100 degree temps for more than a half hour standing still (0 MPH)! There was "no" air blowing across the cyl fins and no cooling fan. It never over heated. I also had an Ariel square 4 engine where there were 2 cylinders fore and 2 aft. "THOSE" 2 rear cylinders "would" overheat because of the lack of space between them. I also remember polishing the sand casting marks off of the fins on an aluminum head only to notice an increase in head temp. (I reduced the surface area) You must remember that if you measure the surface area of the top and bottom of "each" cooling fin on these engines we work on today, that adds up to a "lot" of surface area. On top of that, today's aluminum dissipates heat almost instantly with the cooling fans we have on the flywheels.
Now, with regard to "this" Kohler engine, with all the problems that are happening, if they "are" heat related, then there is a design flaw, because the older Kohler engines do "not" have those problems working under the same working conditions.
I work on B&S, Kohler, Wisconson, (and Robin), Suzuki, Tecumseh (RIP), Clinton (not many still running) Kawasaki, and never seen overheating problems even with debris clogging the fins. Yes they would get hot, but not overheat.
#42
M
motoman
M
motoman
Mr Chance, Thanks for naming the brands you work on. Please know that this is only discussion and not some kind of contest. You seem to have the great advantage of doing repair as a living. So when I keep asking questions it is not personal.
Discoloration of steel can be quantified by temperature in degrees. If anyone is interested I will post the well know temper color charts. These colors can interpret heat on steel like catalytic mufflers, steel cylinder bores, and exhaust pipes. If you know of discoloration charts on aluminum please tell us as I believe that many of the problems on Aluminum aircooled mower engines are overheated engine heads. Why do I believe this. Certainly not from vast experience with tractors or lawnmowers, rather from being a moto nut and reading a lot.
If a valve breaks what exactly has happened? If valve seats loosen and pushrods are thrown or bent what exactly has happened. If a valve guide is "pushed" up into the head or properly torqued head bolts loosen, what has happened?
I notice that on my test mule, the INTEK 24, there is no oil feed to the exhaust guide, only a vapor for lubrication. So that guide is relying entirely on conduction and air to cool it. Some engine gurus have corrected overheating heads by finally piping oil over guides. Mr chance why don't you take some temps as you service these machines. I realize you are a businessman and not a hobbyist. Does't it bother you that you do not think of some reason for the failures you see? The word "design" must be defined for us. Again , thanks for participating in this dicussion and I understand if you think this is "much ado about nothing." :wink:
Discoloration of steel can be quantified by temperature in degrees. If anyone is interested I will post the well know temper color charts. These colors can interpret heat on steel like catalytic mufflers, steel cylinder bores, and exhaust pipes. If you know of discoloration charts on aluminum please tell us as I believe that many of the problems on Aluminum aircooled mower engines are overheated engine heads. Why do I believe this. Certainly not from vast experience with tractors or lawnmowers, rather from being a moto nut and reading a lot.
If a valve breaks what exactly has happened? If valve seats loosen and pushrods are thrown or bent what exactly has happened. If a valve guide is "pushed" up into the head or properly torqued head bolts loosen, what has happened?
I notice that on my test mule, the INTEK 24, there is no oil feed to the exhaust guide, only a vapor for lubrication. So that guide is relying entirely on conduction and air to cool it. Some engine gurus have corrected overheating heads by finally piping oil over guides. Mr chance why don't you take some temps as you service these machines. I realize you are a businessman and not a hobbyist. Does't it bother you that you do not think of some reason for the failures you see? The word "design" must be defined for us. Again , thanks for participating in this dicussion and I understand if you think this is "much ado about nothing." :wink:
#43
C
chance123
No offence taken. It would be hard to take temp measurements here in the shop. That would best be done in the heat of the day under heavy loads out in the field.
Sure it bothers me and I "do" have reasons for the repeated failures with only this "one" engine! I see it over and over here in my shop and on this board too in other parts of the country. I have spoken with Kohler about this and they said to me "in 2k13 we will be clamping down with our QC on the Courage engines. Over heating? Only on this one engine? I believe it is more than that. When the last valve broke, the machine was running in the mid morning when it was only about 70 degrees and overcast.
I was not making this out to be a contest. I am merely sharing my experiences which goes back to 1960 and never seen an overheating problem with these air cooled engines. Water pumpers? Yes! The Kawais with the FD 750D have their problems which result in warped heads and other problems that would "never" happen with air cooling. When bolts come loose, many times it is because the aluminum pieces and the steel bolts expand (with heat) at a different ratio and is why it is critical to torque in sequence to spec. I have seen loose (finger tight) case bolts on a brand new in the box Courage engine. Kohler "HAS" to be feeling the heat over this.
BTW, Hot steel turns blue/purple and aluminum turns black
C
chance123
Mr Chance, Thanks for naming the brands you work on. Please know that this is only discussion and not some kind of contest. You seem to have the great advantage of doing repair as a living. So when I keep asking questions it is not personal.
Discoloration of steel can be quantified by temperature in degrees. If anyone is interested I will post the well know temper color charts. These colors can interpret heat on steel like catalytic mufflers, steel cylinder bores, and exhaust pipes. If you know of discoloration charts on aluminum please tell us as I believe that many of the problems on Aluminum aircooled mower engines are overheated engine heads. Why do I believe this. Certainly not from vast experience with tractors or lawnmowers, rather from being a moto nut and reading a lot.
If a valve breaks what exactly has happened? If valve seats loosen and pushrods are thrown or bent what exactly has happened. If a valve guide is "pushed" up into the head or properly torqued head bolts loosen, what has happened?
I notice that on my test mule, the INTEK 24, there is no oil feed to the exhaust guide, only a vapor for lubrication. So that guide is relying entirely on conduction and air to cool it. Some engine gurus have corrected overheating heads by finally piping oil over guides. Mr chance why don't you take some temps as you service these machines. I realize you are a businessman and not a hobbyist. Does't it bother you that you do not think of some reason for the failures you see? The word "design" must be defined for us. Again , thanks for participating in this dicussion and I understand if you think this is "much ado about nothing." :wink:
No offence taken. It would be hard to take temp measurements here in the shop. That would best be done in the heat of the day under heavy loads out in the field.
Sure it bothers me and I "do" have reasons for the repeated failures with only this "one" engine! I see it over and over here in my shop and on this board too in other parts of the country. I have spoken with Kohler about this and they said to me "in 2k13 we will be clamping down with our QC on the Courage engines. Over heating? Only on this one engine? I believe it is more than that. When the last valve broke, the machine was running in the mid morning when it was only about 70 degrees and overcast.
I was not making this out to be a contest. I am merely sharing my experiences which goes back to 1960 and never seen an overheating problem with these air cooled engines. Water pumpers? Yes! The Kawais with the FD 750D have their problems which result in warped heads and other problems that would "never" happen with air cooling. When bolts come loose, many times it is because the aluminum pieces and the steel bolts expand (with heat) at a different ratio and is why it is critical to torque in sequence to spec. I have seen loose (finger tight) case bolts on a brand new in the box Courage engine. Kohler "HAS" to be feeling the heat over this.
BTW, Hot steel turns blue/purple and aluminum turns black
#44
M
motoman
M
motoman
Mr chance , some random thoughts...your stationary Triumph had oil jets trained on the valve guides . Then the oil was circulated thru a remote oil tank which took a while to heat up.
A site I quoted in the K thermocouple thread (gasket manufacturer) stated that its alleged gasket failures were due to softened aluminum heads which "gave" under the head torqueing sequence. The heads had been overheated
My Intek guide which pushed could not be bought. Why ? Briggs Stratton knows that oversized guides will also push due to weaken aluminum (overheat). I had to buy new heads complete.
I recently bought "reman" brake calipers from Autozone. They would not accept the required threaded hardware to proper torque-the fasteners pulled the threads right out. Reason: the prior owner had overheated the aluminum caliper and Autozone's supplier did not perform hardness test on incoming cores.
Known "tempering" colors. These are used by blacksmiths who are quenching to desired toughness and by home hobbyist who are retempering screwdriver tips after regrind. "Fingerprints" for carbon steel temperatures . Browns 420-480F, Yellows 490-520 F, Purples 530-550F, Blues 560-610F. I see these colors on my headers, catalytic converter, overheated grinder workpieces. Aluminum ,like steel comes in 57 Heinz varieties of alloy. I only know the trick body guys use who work aluminum. If it work hardens from forming and must be reformed they go with a sooty oxyacetylene coating and then go 50-50 until the black burns off which indicates the Al is annealed-temp unknown.
Corvair and VW engines are notorious for loosened valve seats due to overheated heads.
Don't know where all this is going , but others may feel like chiming in.
:biggrin:
A site I quoted in the K thermocouple thread (gasket manufacturer) stated that its alleged gasket failures were due to softened aluminum heads which "gave" under the head torqueing sequence. The heads had been overheated
My Intek guide which pushed could not be bought. Why ? Briggs Stratton knows that oversized guides will also push due to weaken aluminum (overheat). I had to buy new heads complete.
I recently bought "reman" brake calipers from Autozone. They would not accept the required threaded hardware to proper torque-the fasteners pulled the threads right out. Reason: the prior owner had overheated the aluminum caliper and Autozone's supplier did not perform hardness test on incoming cores.
Known "tempering" colors. These are used by blacksmiths who are quenching to desired toughness and by home hobbyist who are retempering screwdriver tips after regrind. "Fingerprints" for carbon steel temperatures . Browns 420-480F, Yellows 490-520 F, Purples 530-550F, Blues 560-610F. I see these colors on my headers, catalytic converter, overheated grinder workpieces. Aluminum ,like steel comes in 57 Heinz varieties of alloy. I only know the trick body guys use who work aluminum. If it work hardens from forming and must be reformed they go with a sooty oxyacetylene coating and then go 50-50 until the black burns off which indicates the Al is annealed-temp unknown.
Corvair and VW engines are notorious for loosened valve seats due to overheated heads.
Don't know where all this is going , but others may feel like chiming in.
:biggrin:
#45
C
chance123
I don't know where this is going either LOL makes for interesting talk, but with the Mazda Rotary engines, it is "normal" for the exhaust pipes to glow red hot.
C
chance123
Mr chance , some random thoughts...your stationary Triumph had oil jets trained on the valve guides . Then the oil was circulated thru a remote oil tank which took a while to heat up.
A site I quoted in the K thermocouple thread (gasket manufacturer) stated that its alleged gasket failures were due to softened aluminum heads which "gave" under the head torqueing sequence. The heads had been overheated
My Intek guide which pushed could not be bought. Why ? Briggs Stratton knows that oversized guides will also push due to weaken aluminum (overheat). I had to buy new heads complete.
I recently bought "reman" brake calipers from Autozone. They would not accept the required threaded hardware to proper torque-the fasteners pulled the threads right out. Reason: the prior owner had overheated the aluminum caliper and Autozone's supplier did not perform hardness test on incoming cores.
Known "tempering" colors. These are used by blacksmiths who are quenching to desired toughness and by home hobbyist who are retempering screwdriver tips after regrind. "Fingerprints" for carbon steel temperatures . Browns 420-480F, Yellows 490-520 F, Purples 530-550F, Blues 560-610F. I see these colors on my headers, catalytic converter, overheated grinder workpieces. Aluminum ,like steel comes in 57 Heinz varieties of alloy. I only know the trick body guys use who work aluminum. If it work hardens from forming and must be reformed they go with a sooty oxyacetylene coating and then go 50-50 until the black burns off which indicates the Al is annealed-temp unknown.
Corvair and VW engines are notorious for loosened valve seats due to overheated heads.
Don't know where all this is going , but others may feel like chiming in.
:biggrin:
I don't know where this is going either LOL makes for interesting talk, but with the Mazda Rotary engines, it is "normal" for the exhaust pipes to glow red hot.
#46
metz12
metz12
Mine isnt bad. Actually its pretty nice. I dont mow with my craftsman though i just use it as a tractor. i dont think that would have anything to do with it though.
#47
K
kevicarlson
K
kevicarlson
My kohler experience -
Bought a ryobi riding mower with courage 19hp sv590-012 engine. Ran it for two seasons on better than an acre and some misc hauling of small trailer around with dirt and wood. It's a 2006 that i bought used from a shade tree guy in in early 2011.
It has run great with little maintenance as I "rookie" my way through owning first riding mower. Then it started spitting oil out breather. Replaced head gasket, valve gasket and valve adjustment andi t has resolved and is running well.
Considering the maintenance neglect on this motor I have either lucked out or not run it hard enough to damage it worse? in my two years with it I would suggest I have overr 100 hrs per year on it for 200+ by me and no telling what it had before I got it.
It's hard to find much discussion on the Internet on this engine or parts for that matter - maybe the extreme nature of the noted failures has people in an unwarranted frenzy about its reliability? Just sayin.
Bought a ryobi riding mower with courage 19hp sv590-012 engine. Ran it for two seasons on better than an acre and some misc hauling of small trailer around with dirt and wood. It's a 2006 that i bought used from a shade tree guy in in early 2011.
It has run great with little maintenance as I "rookie" my way through owning first riding mower. Then it started spitting oil out breather. Replaced head gasket, valve gasket and valve adjustment andi t has resolved and is running well.
Considering the maintenance neglect on this motor I have either lucked out or not run it hard enough to damage it worse? in my two years with it I would suggest I have overr 100 hrs per year on it for 200+ by me and no telling what it had before I got it.
It's hard to find much discussion on the Internet on this engine or parts for that matter - maybe the extreme nature of the noted failures has people in an unwarranted frenzy about its reliability? Just sayin.
#48
P
possum
P
possum
The frustration is a perfectly good tractor that still looks and runs like new with a destroyed engine along with a replacement cost that prevents the re engine of the tractor. There has to be many that do well as they are on OPE all over the world.
#49
E
edd
E
edd
have a 23 horse courage on a toro timecutter.......roughly 500 hrs and not a problem yet.......ran a courage on a craftsman rider for 3 years and it still runs good
#50
066
066
In the past 5 or 6 years i've seen 4 or 5 cracked courage blocks, all cracked on the exhaust side & underneath & all on rear engine zero-turn machines, i managed to get a warranty claim for 1 that had 120 hrs on it & was well out of it's warranty period, i couldn't believe the claim was approved, our Kohler agent in this country seems to be switched on & they went to Kohler in Italy who approved the claim.
We have also sold many Husqvarna front engine mowers with the courage engine & have never had a cracked block.
We have also sold many Husqvarna front engine mowers with the courage engine & have never had a cracked block.
#51
M
marvc
M
marvc
Sounds to me like comparing one courage owner to the next, or like comparing fords to chevys, one likes them and his best friend hates them. Plus I personally believe VERY strongly in the question "was it made on a monday or friday. On mondays no one feels like working because of being tired from a busy wekend, and on fridays people rush through jobs pushing quality towards the back burner because the dont want wore down too much so they can stay out all night partying or whatever. I have used the Courage with no problems, even after running one that lost most of the engine from bad leaking filter and it started knocking. Shut it down immediatly, put on new filte and filled with oil and went back to work with it. It took up to close to 5 minutes for the knocking to completly go away, but now still works great with NO lasting effects or problems from it.
:ashamed:
:ashamed:
#52
J
Jerry M
J
Jerry M
I purchased a Toro zero turn mower with a Kohler Courage engine (model SV610S) in April, 2008. Replaced a solenoid 3/11. Then noticed an oil leak toward the end of 2011 that seemed to be coming from the top of the engine. Discovered that four of the bolts at the top of the engine were loose. Tightened them and leak quit for awhile. In 2012 leak returned. Checked and tightened bolts again. Toward the end of the summer a leak reappeared, this time seeming to come from the bottom of the engine. This spring I talked to a mechanic, who told me that this particular engine has a bad reputation, and that he thought there was a recall on it. Has it been recalled?
Does the oil leak from the bottom indicate a cracked block or more loose bolts?
Does the oil leak from the bottom indicate a cracked block or more loose bolts?
#53
TnHusky
Jerry your engine is a single cylinder right? If so I'd check with a authorized Kohler dealer and ask them the same question. The single cylinders had some troubles and seems Kohler had taken steps to solve some of the issues. They may work with you on this.
TnHusky
I purchased a Toro zero turn mower with a Kohler Courage engine (model SV610S) in April, 2008. Replaced a solenoid 3/11. Then noticed an oil leak toward the end of 2011 that seemed to be coming from the top of the engine. Discovered that four of the bolts at the top of the engine were loose. Tightened them and leak quit for awhile. In 2012 leak returned. Checked and tightened bolts again. Toward the end of the summer a leak reappeared, this time seeming to come from the bottom of the engine. This spring I talked to a mechanic, who told me that this particular engine has a bad reputation, and that he thought there was a recall on it. Has it been recalled?
Does the oil leak from the bottom indicate a cracked block or more loose bolts?
Jerry your engine is a single cylinder right? If so I'd check with a authorized Kohler dealer and ask them the same question. The single cylinders had some troubles and seems Kohler had taken steps to solve some of the issues. They may work with you on this.
#54
J
jk1w
J
jk1w
I have a Cub Cadet with a Kohler Courage 20hp single with 170 hours on it within ownership of 3 years, and she is a demon child of Jekyll and Hyde. More problems than anything and so far can not go one season with out having to fix something. The short block has already been replaced on her within one year of ownership due to literately missing engine components in the engine thankfully warranty covered that, now going on year 3 new problems has surfaced with a weight on top of the camshaft shattered and warped and no way to fix it unless I hunt down for used motor and tear it apart for that piece; only because Kohler directly does not manufacture the piece no more. Instead I would have to get a new short block to replace this one, $700/$800, which is basically a new engine; or else I have to wait to see if I can get it replaced under a Kohler warranty which is what I am currently in the process of dping with my cub cadet dealer :thumbdown:
#55
M
motoman
M
motoman
I have just reread this thread. It IMO is one of the best ever due to vast experience shared and knowledge. I have tried to walk the walk with my Intek 24 by installing sensors on two places on the the #1 cylinder head. Mr Chance has stated air cooled heads do not overheat, my definition: reach 390F at the exhaust valve guide . So far I have not been able to show the 390F. But I have seen 312F with the spark plug sensor as read by the K thermometer. This was in 75F ambient. The sensor started leaking so I had to move it before hot weather arrived (now 90F). I moved it to the valve cover bolt nearest the exhaust valve and have only seen 278F. I did try to clamp a sensor onto the ex valve guide cast pillar or "cyinder." That failed because of the irregular shape and lack of good thermal contact. Still trying.
Back briefly to quality. Castings are alloy which can go wrong due to wrong "cake mix," cooling, quenching, annealing. It is science without a doubt. Most supplier quality is taken on faith by the manufacturer. Sympathy for the Chinese laborer , but the country is notorious for cottage industry. If the Kohler engine castings (and others) are coming from home cottage effort they may be no better than lawn chairs. Without rigorous incoming inspection the engine machine shop will happily cut away and produce aluminum engines with varied results.
Back briefly to quality. Castings are alloy which can go wrong due to wrong "cake mix," cooling, quenching, annealing. It is science without a doubt. Most supplier quality is taken on faith by the manufacturer. Sympathy for the Chinese laborer , but the country is notorious for cottage industry. If the Kohler engine castings (and others) are coming from home cottage effort they may be no better than lawn chairs. Without rigorous incoming inspection the engine machine shop will happily cut away and produce aluminum engines with varied results.
#56
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Having reread these threads, I'm going to say YES to the original question!!! LOL!!!
Courage models are not the only Kohlers with problems, something about the oil gallery plug blowing out comes to mind!!!
Mad Mackie in CT
Courage models are not the only Kohlers with problems, something about the oil gallery plug blowing out comes to mind!!!
Mad Mackie in CT
#57
exotion
exotion
I don't know kohler makes dam good toilets...
#60
M
Mad Mackie
Yes, water cooled, no ethanol, smooth and cool to the touch, comfortable to sit on usually!!!! HaHa!!!!:laughing::laughing::laughing:
M
Mad Mackie
Ah, but they are water cooled, right.
Yes, water cooled, no ethanol, smooth and cool to the touch, comfortable to sit on usually!!!! HaHa!!!!:laughing::laughing::laughing:
#63
M
motoman
M
motoman
with that finish they are all show and no go...for anyone inclined to watch:laughing:
(I thought potty jokes were for kids? Shows how really uptight we are)
(I thought potty jokes were for kids? Shows how really uptight we are)
#64
B
Bad Luck Chuck
I am on my third mower from the big blue box store in less than 3 years. THe most recent return was a YTH21k46 with the Courage engine. I like to think I take care of my mowers better than the average individual treating it more like a car than a mower. Anyway, I never made it to 50 hours for the first oil change before the thing blew up on me. After a day of yard work picking up leaves, moving firewood with my small cart, and picking up twigs, I pulled up to the double doors, throttled down, opened my double doors and when I throttled back up.... POW. blue cloud of smoke. THe mower never ran again. What was it. Head gasket? rings? Who knows. I didn't have it worked on, I returned it. My Kohler didn't give me enough time to get to KNOW her before she crapped the bed on me. I can't afford a JD300 series with the Kawasaki engine. I have 4 acres to maintain with 2 of that to mow. But I do think I will be looking into something with a Briggs engine. THey seem to be on a good run with this current line.
B
Bad Luck Chuck
When I said What the problems are is that people don't know Kohler engines. It meant how to take care of and preform the proper maintenance.
You have people that use the wrong motor oil to start with and they recommend using the synthetic for any number of things which in reality is nothing more than a myth. The only advantage to a synthetic is that it will provide better starting in extreme cold. That crap should never touch a mower engine. That's the first problem. Read the owners manual, Kohler recommends conventional petroleum-based detergent oils.
Change the oil and oil filter every 50 hrs without fail and start with the new filter, fill it half full of oil and let it soak while you drain the oil and remove the old filter. Install the new filter and add no more than 1 1/2 quarts of oil ( keep the oil level within the safe operating range on the dipstick only ) then leave it alone and you'll never have a problem with a Kohler Courage engine.
I am on my third mower from the big blue box store in less than 3 years. THe most recent return was a YTH21k46 with the Courage engine. I like to think I take care of my mowers better than the average individual treating it more like a car than a mower. Anyway, I never made it to 50 hours for the first oil change before the thing blew up on me. After a day of yard work picking up leaves, moving firewood with my small cart, and picking up twigs, I pulled up to the double doors, throttled down, opened my double doors and when I throttled back up.... POW. blue cloud of smoke. THe mower never ran again. What was it. Head gasket? rings? Who knows. I didn't have it worked on, I returned it. My Kohler didn't give me enough time to get to KNOW her before she crapped the bed on me. I can't afford a JD300 series with the Kawasaki engine. I have 4 acres to maintain with 2 of that to mow. But I do think I will be looking into something with a Briggs engine. THey seem to be on a good run with this current line.
#65
davbell22602
davbell22602
The Kohler Courage and Briggs vtwin Intek are junk. I'd spend the extra money and buy mower with the Kohler Command Pro vtwin engine on it. Better engine for your money.
#66
Ric
You can call the Courage junk if you wish but I'll take a Courage to any briggs in a heart beat. I've ran three, 250 on a single 455 hrs on a 20hp twin and I'm closing in on 800hrs on my 22hp and have never had an issue with any Kohler Courage. I do agree about all briggs and strattons being junk though.
Ric
The Kohler Courage and Briggs vtwin Intek are junk. I'd spend the extra money and buy mower with the Kohler Command Pro vtwin engine on it. Better engine for your money.
You can call the Courage junk if you wish but I'll take a Courage to any briggs in a heart beat. I've ran three, 250 on a single 455 hrs on a 20hp twin and I'm closing in on 800hrs on my 22hp and have never had an issue with any Kohler Courage. I do agree about all briggs and strattons being junk though.
#67
Carscw
My cub has a kohler with over 900 hours on it. Have never even pulled the spark plug. But I still like briggs.
I don't care what brand of anything you buy your going to get a bad one once in a while.
Carscw
You casn call the Courage junk if you wish but I'll take a Courage to any briggs in a heart beat. I've ran three, 250 on a single 455 hrs on a 20hp twin and I'm closing in on 800hrs on my 22hp and have never had an issue with any Kohler Courage. I do agree about all briggs and strattons being junk though.
My cub has a kohler with over 900 hours on it. Have never even pulled the spark plug. But I still like briggs.
I don't care what brand of anything you buy your going to get a bad one once in a while.
#68
metz12
kohler command pro vtwin is in my mower. i like it.
metz12
The Kohler Courage and Briggs vtwin Intek are junk. I'd spend the extra money and buy mower with the Kohler Command Pro vtwin engine on it. Better engine for your money.
kohler command pro vtwin is in my mower. i like it.
#69
K
keithgj24
i have the same trouble with my Kohler courage 19 cracked block operated properly oil changed reguarly and filters changed i think these engines all had bad castings i could not get any warranty help what so ever with mine engine only had 15 hours on it when it cracked never will purchase another one of these need a class action lawsuit
K
keithgj24
When you have cracked engine cases on engines with very few hours it has nothing with as to how well a engine been maintained. This seems to be the problim on the Kohler courage engine. I really don't know what you need to do prevent this from happening. Maybe its the way it is operated, low RPMs??? maybe someone has a better idea.
i have the same trouble with my Kohler courage 19 cracked block operated properly oil changed reguarly and filters changed i think these engines all had bad castings i could not get any warranty help what so ever with mine engine only had 15 hours on it when it cracked never will purchase another one of these need a class action lawsuit
#70
5
5acre
I have a 27 Hp. Kohler Courage, better than 500 hrs. my original starter failed at about 450 hrs. I bought a replacement and 7 months later the drive gear and the top of what I would call the spindle broke off. Parts dealer covered it and I put in my 3rd starter. Now 5 months later , starter problems again. This time just a click when I hit the key. Turns out when I removed the starter the top of the drive was bent and the drive gear was just running into the flywheel. Any ideas on what might be happening? Thanks
5
5acre
i have the same trouble with my Kohler courage 19 cracked block operated properly oil changed reguarly and filters changed i think these engines all had bad castings i could not get any warranty help what so ever with mine engine only had 15 hours on it when it cracked never will purchase another one of these need a class action lawsuit
I have a 27 Hp. Kohler Courage, better than 500 hrs. my original starter failed at about 450 hrs. I bought a replacement and 7 months later the drive gear and the top of what I would call the spindle broke off. Parts dealer covered it and I put in my 3rd starter. Now 5 months later , starter problems again. This time just a click when I hit the key. Turns out when I removed the starter the top of the drive was bent and the drive gear was just running into the flywheel. Any ideas on what might be happening? Thanks
#72
B
bertsmobile1
Once again it is a case of "Magic Pudding" ( is there a US equivalent story ? )
Ride ons are not essential items so they are very price sensative to both ends
At the status symbol end you have Honda engines, way over engineered for the purpose.
At the other end you have Tecumseh, the Chineese no name then B&S Ineks, then Courage .
All these are entry level engines made as cheap as possible to entice the people who really can't afford a ride on or actually don't need one to buy one.
All of them have troubles because all of them are cheap and for once a car analagy is relevant, call them the Model T of mower, just good enough to outlast the warrantee.
Domestic ride ons are designed to give a 5 -10 year life at 30 -50 hours /year when used within their limits and services according to the makers directions.
Now from what I see most at the bottom end get a mower that is way under their needs, totally ignore the instruction book, if they ever read it in the first place. ( note how many have chimed in about how to stop your engine ) and treat their mower with total contempt or just plain ignore it till it goes bang and then find some one else to blame because for 90% of the population, nothing is ever their fault.
You see it here all the time "my neighbour asked me to fix his?." "My grandson / daughtier / mother /neighbour / ect was using the mower?.." etc., etc, etc.
Now from what I see here, the Courage engine give no more troubles than the Intek engine and will take a lot more abuse specifically running on slope way beyound the stated limits.
However the Courage engine is offered as an upgrade ( more expensive price ) than the B & S so the owners think the extra $ 20 had bought them the bullet proof equivalent of a Honda, which it is not as it is still the cheapest engine Kohler can make .
How many post appear here asking about the cheapest mower ?
People seeming to think they can get a Rolls Royce mower for under $ 2000 or even under $ 1500 if thy just look hard enough when those who actually fix them know very little under $ 3000 is good value for money ( $ 6000 down here )
Yes they will all do the job but most will only just do the job and only for a limited time.
Now peoples responses will be coloured by their own experiences, which is quite normal & expected, we should learn from our experiences and on balance you will see just as many will never touch any Kohler because they are all crap as will never touch any B & S because they are all crap who will never touch any Tecumseh because they are all crap unfortunately most of these are the result of a sample size of 1, their own that they had a lot of trouble with.
The bit that is dissapointing is most of the said same will not fork out the money to buy a top line engine.
B
bertsmobile1
I've seen an inordinate number of Courage singles totalled out in my small one person shop.:frown: They're just not built to a high enough standard, it seems, that the rest of the Kohler line is. As I often joke to myself, "It takes a lot of courage to own one of these".:biggrin: For the couple of folks that have a newly purchased one of these Courage motors, I recommend synthetic oil, and don't run it hard through high load situations. (i.e., tall and/or wet grass.)
Once again it is a case of "Magic Pudding" ( is there a US equivalent story ? )
Ride ons are not essential items so they are very price sensative to both ends
At the status symbol end you have Honda engines, way over engineered for the purpose.
At the other end you have Tecumseh, the Chineese no name then B&S Ineks, then Courage .
All these are entry level engines made as cheap as possible to entice the people who really can't afford a ride on or actually don't need one to buy one.
All of them have troubles because all of them are cheap and for once a car analagy is relevant, call them the Model T of mower, just good enough to outlast the warrantee.
Domestic ride ons are designed to give a 5 -10 year life at 30 -50 hours /year when used within their limits and services according to the makers directions.
Now from what I see most at the bottom end get a mower that is way under their needs, totally ignore the instruction book, if they ever read it in the first place. ( note how many have chimed in about how to stop your engine ) and treat their mower with total contempt or just plain ignore it till it goes bang and then find some one else to blame because for 90% of the population, nothing is ever their fault.
You see it here all the time "my neighbour asked me to fix his?." "My grandson / daughtier / mother /neighbour / ect was using the mower?.." etc., etc, etc.
Now from what I see here, the Courage engine give no more troubles than the Intek engine and will take a lot more abuse specifically running on slope way beyound the stated limits.
However the Courage engine is offered as an upgrade ( more expensive price ) than the B & S so the owners think the extra $ 20 had bought them the bullet proof equivalent of a Honda, which it is not as it is still the cheapest engine Kohler can make .
How many post appear here asking about the cheapest mower ?
People seeming to think they can get a Rolls Royce mower for under $ 2000 or even under $ 1500 if thy just look hard enough when those who actually fix them know very little under $ 3000 is good value for money ( $ 6000 down here )
Yes they will all do the job but most will only just do the job and only for a limited time.
Now peoples responses will be coloured by their own experiences, which is quite normal & expected, we should learn from our experiences and on balance you will see just as many will never touch any Kohler because they are all crap as will never touch any B & S because they are all crap who will never touch any Tecumseh because they are all crap unfortunately most of these are the result of a sample size of 1, their own that they had a lot of trouble with.
The bit that is dissapointing is most of the said same will not fork out the money to buy a top line engine.
#73
ILENGINE
Actually, at least for the US The average rider is used 38 hours per year, and is replaced every 4 1/2 years. the average push mower is used 12 hours per year, and replaced every 3 1/2 years. And the manufacturers know it, and engineer their products for that time frame.
ILENGINE
Domestic ride ons are designed to give a 5 -10 year life at 30 -50 hours /year when used within their limits and services according to the makers directions.
Actually, at least for the US The average rider is used 38 hours per year, and is replaced every 4 1/2 years. the average push mower is used 12 hours per year, and replaced every 3 1/2 years. And the manufacturers know it, and engineer their products for that time frame.
#74
Boobala
Boobala
After reading the entire forum on this "courage" issue , I have reached the conclusion : The "bottom of the barrel" engines were made from recycled Schlitz beer cans and the "cream of the crop" engines were made from Budweiser cans .......... PROBLEM ... resolved ...... Drink more Buds !!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
#75
J
Jack17
J
Jack17
It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you try to describe a Beethoven symphony as a variation of pressure wave. I like the idea of drinking more beer...period!
#76
J
John WD
I have the YTH20K46 Husqvarna with the 20 HP Courage engine in it. Only got 86 hours on it and it's leaking oil onto my mufler and smoking when I'm running it. And it drips oil on my garage floor. I keep it in the garage and maintain it according to the manual. It's out of warranty so I guess I'm screwed. From everything I've been reading it isn't worth having repaired.
I always thought highly of Kohler in the past. Seems like many companies are now having their products manufactured in China to save a few bucks.
I ordered a new mower with a Kawasaki engine. I'll try to sell the Husqvarna on Craigslist.
J
John WD
I am on my third mower from the big blue box store in less than 3 years. THe most recent return was a YTH21k46 with the Courage engine. I like to think I take care of my mowers better than the average individual treating it more like a car than a mower. Anyway, I never made it to 50 hours for the first oil change before the thing blew up on me. After a day of yard work picking up leaves, moving firewood with my small cart, and picking up twigs, I pulled up to the double doors, throttled down, opened my double doors and when I throttled back up.... POW. blue cloud of smoke. THe mower never ran again. What was it. Head gasket? rings? Who knows. I didn't have it worked on, I returned it. My Kohler didn't give me enough time to get to KNOW her before she crapped the bed on me. I can't afford a JD300 series with the Kawasaki engine. I have 4 acres to maintain with 2 of that to mow. But I do think I will be looking into something with a Briggs engine. THey seem to be on a good run with this current line.
I have the YTH20K46 Husqvarna with the 20 HP Courage engine in it. Only got 86 hours on it and it's leaking oil onto my mufler and smoking when I'm running it. And it drips oil on my garage floor. I keep it in the garage and maintain it according to the manual. It's out of warranty so I guess I'm screwed. From everything I've been reading it isn't worth having repaired.
I always thought highly of Kohler in the past. Seems like many companies are now having their products manufactured in China to save a few bucks.
I ordered a new mower with a Kawasaki engine. I'll try to sell the Husqvarna on Craigslist.
#77
Boobala
Boobala
With so many complaints, why hasn't a class action lawsuit been filed ?? Would'nt it be nice if ....... we could get 1/2 the members ( in solidarity ) of this site to stand together and send an e-mail to their Corporate Headquarters a real " boatload " MAYBE just maybe ....... they would offer a recall or some type of compensation like a REALLY HUGE dicount on a new Command engine ( 75% ) would be nice ( dreaming ) I don't even own one of these engines but I feel so bad for my fellow owners ............ Boobala :thumbdown: :ban:
#78
B
bertsmobile1
Sounds like a blown had gasket.
A $ 20 DIY repair
Or
A loose top plate another 10 minute fix
and you are going to rush out and buy a new mower for that ?
Remember there are about 15 people who have had problems repoerted on this list.
There are probably 150,000 engines out there working perfectly well so the owners are not here because they have not had any problems.
OTOH it is your money
B
bertsmobile1
I have the YTH20K46 Husqvarna with the 20 HP Courage engine in it. Only got 86 hours on it and it's leaking oil onto my mufler and smoking when I'm running it. And it drips oil on my garage floor. I keep it in the garage and maintain it according to the manual. It's out of warranty so I guess I'm screwed. From everything I've been reading it isn't worth having repaired.
I always thought highly of Kohler in the past. Seems like many companies are now having their products manufactured in China to save a few bucks.
I ordered a new mower with a Kawasaki engine. I'll try to sell the Husqvarna on Craigslist.
Sounds like a blown had gasket.
A $ 20 DIY repair
Or
A loose top plate another 10 minute fix
and you are going to rush out and buy a new mower for that ?
Remember there are about 15 people who have had problems repoerted on this list.
There are probably 150,000 engines out there working perfectly well so the owners are not here because they have not had any problems.
OTOH it is your money
#79
exotion
This, a little research would reveal a easy normal thing. I would however look into the cause of head gasket or leak. Could the oil be overfilled, crap in heat sink fins causing overheating people these days..
exotion
Sounds like a blown had gasket.
A $ 20 DIY repair
Or
A loose top plate another 10 minute fix
and you are going to rush out and buy a new mower for that ?
Remember there are about 15 people who have had problems repoerted on this list.
There are probably 150,000 engines out there working perfectly well so the owners are not here because they have not had any problems.
OTOH it is your money
This, a little research would reveal a easy normal thing. I would however look into the cause of head gasket or leak. Could the oil be overfilled, crap in heat sink fins causing overheating people these days..
#80
P
porkchop
P
porkchop
I have a Kohler Courage pro Twin 25hp SV830 on my Husqvarna mz5225 that I bought in 2012. I just hit the 51 hour mark and it runs like the day I bought it. I keep the mower in a shed out of the weather and use non ethanol gas only. I just follow the maintenance schedule in my owners manual and all has been good. Yes mine was made in China too. I would buy mine all over again. Great engine.
#81
J
John WD
The oil isn't overfilled and I keep the engine clean. I raise the hood and clean everything in the engine area and the deck area after every use.
I think after I get my new mower I will the take the hood off of my tractor and see if I can find where the leak is coming from. If it is just the valve cover gasket or the head gasket leaking I'll fix it before selling the mower. If it's something else I'll sell the mower as is.
J
John WD
This, a little research would reveal a easy normal thing. I would however look into the cause of head gasket or leak. Could the oil be overfilled, crap in heat sink fins causing overheating people these days..
The oil isn't overfilled and I keep the engine clean. I raise the hood and clean everything in the engine area and the deck area after every use.
I think after I get my new mower I will the take the hood off of my tractor and see if I can find where the leak is coming from. If it is just the valve cover gasket or the head gasket leaking I'll fix it before selling the mower. If it's something else I'll sell the mower as is.
#82
Carscw
Carscw
I have three mowers with the same courage engine. All have over 500 hours on them.
Never any problems.
I have one that is on a mud mower.
I run it wide open ( no governor) most of the time I am on it.
Never any problems.
I have one that is on a mud mower.
I run it wide open ( no governor) most of the time I am on it.
#83
J
John WD
J
John WD
The difference may (or may not) be when it was manufactured? Mine was manufactured in 2008.
I could just put a drip pan under it in the garage. But I decided to get a new one and sell this one.
I could just put a drip pan under it in the garage. But I decided to get a new one and sell this one.
#84
T
turboawd
T
turboawd
hello fellas,
my 3 year old cub cadet with a kohler courage 20 blew up. lol
it started making noises and bam, and then spilled all the oil out. the block had cracked. it only had 150 hours.
from some reading i've done, these motors are made in china, right? have these issues been resolved, or are the new kohlers the same?
my 3 year old cub cadet with a kohler courage 20 blew up. lol
it started making noises and bam, and then spilled all the oil out. the block had cracked. it only had 150 hours.
from some reading i've done, these motors are made in china, right? have these issues been resolved, or are the new kohlers the same?
#85
M
motoman
M
motoman
As I read the professionals' experience it would seem they are more disciplined with the equipment because they have to be to stay in business. Perhaps all the right maintenance and operation is like brushing teeth, a regular drill. Never thought I would defend my Intek 24 since it pushed a guide and ate a pushrod, but once fixed and kept cooler it has treated me well ( new 2004). Leaking oil on air cooled engines should be expected , especially with the heat and vibration they put out.
#86
G
gainestruk
G
gainestruk
Courage are like anything, take care of it and it will serve you well, I have a 20 hp single on a Troybilt Bronco that I'm letting friend use, it now has 75 hrs with no problems and I have a 23 hp v twin on my Husqvarna z-turn it now has 91 hrs on it with no problems.
I do keep both serviced well.
My next door neighbor has a 18 hp courage single on a gravely z-turn he bought new in 2004, last time I ask him he had 575 hrs on it, he mows his yard and part of pasture, he will run it 5+ hrs some hot days and has never had a problem, we did check it at around 75 hrs after I started hearing about loose case bolts, his were tight.
He takes good care of it, air filter stays clean and some years 2 oil changes with 10w30 regular oil (I don't know brand)
I do keep both serviced well.
My next door neighbor has a 18 hp courage single on a gravely z-turn he bought new in 2004, last time I ask him he had 575 hrs on it, he mows his yard and part of pasture, he will run it 5+ hrs some hot days and has never had a problem, we did check it at around 75 hrs after I started hearing about loose case bolts, his were tight.
He takes good care of it, air filter stays clean and some years 2 oil changes with 10w30 regular oil (I don't know brand)
#87
D
DaveTN
D
DaveTN
The first Kohler Courage I ever worked on was June 2015 and hopefully my last. It was a 19HP
single on a Cub Cadet standard riding mower. To me it was temperamental, difficult to keep
the valves adjusted, but ran strong when it was started. The original complaint
was that the starter couldn't pull it through the high compression. You can read
my lengthy report (Kohler 19HP High Compression Problem) on start to finish, and
yes, it ended up at last starting easier and running as good as any engine.
Honestly I don't like the OHV engines period but prefer the old style engines with
the valves in the block. I've had several run-ins both with B&S and Kohler over-head
valve adjustments and high compression problems. All in all I do not like Kohler Courage with
the "Bucket Lid" design as they tend to crack blocks with thin walls and bolts working loose
on the lid. :thumbdown:
single on a Cub Cadet standard riding mower. To me it was temperamental, difficult to keep
the valves adjusted, but ran strong when it was started. The original complaint
was that the starter couldn't pull it through the high compression. You can read
my lengthy report (Kohler 19HP High Compression Problem) on start to finish, and
yes, it ended up at last starting easier and running as good as any engine.
Honestly I don't like the OHV engines period but prefer the old style engines with
the valves in the block. I've had several run-ins both with B&S and Kohler over-head
valve adjustments and high compression problems. All in all I do not like Kohler Courage with
the "Bucket Lid" design as they tend to crack blocks with thin walls and bolts working loose
on the lid. :thumbdown:
#88
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Well I will both agree & disagree with Dave, just to confuse everyone even more.
Yes, the side walls are too thin
Yes the rocker cover is difficult to keep sealed unless you go to the effort of changing the $ 4.00 gasket every time and do it up with a tension wrench.
And yes the old side valve engines were easier to do routine servicing on, till you had to do something like adjust valve lash on.
However comparing the old side bangers to modern OHV engines is totally irrevelant as they were much better built, in fact substaintally over engineered and were 10 times the price / Hp of modern engines ( adjusted for inflation )
The 8Hp on my 1966 Rover Rancher II cost $ 600 Aus when new, in 1966 the average weekly take home male pay including overtime & bonuses was $ 85 so there was good profit in making them.
We all convienentally forget about this about this when making comparisons and keep thinking a 1966 $ is the same as as 2015 $
So a real comparison would be between it and an 8Hp engine in the $ 3000 + range which of course is not the Courage series.
Otoh, the bucket dedign is a pleasure to work on, you can do full internal surgery with the engine in place in the mower so there is 2 hours saved over anything other than the new Hondas with the diagonal closure.
You can get at all cowel bolts easily, without having to hang off the rafters or remove fuel tanks to get at the back 2 horizontal bolts found on just about everything else with a gravity tank, so two minutes for any Courage / Command as compared to 15 + minutes for a lot of Inteks ( mower dependant )
The hang down oil filters are easy to change cleanly without having 50 little different catch pans to slip under the horizontal oil filter and still spend 10 minutes of uncharagable time cleaning up the spilt oil and another 10 extra minutes trying to undo an oil filter that only has 5 degrees of accessable rotation to work with .
Both Courage & Inteks seem to have the same occurance of internal failures so there is not much difference there except the Courage is easier to work on.
Both the Courage & Command have exactly the same design and the Command, with a higher quality & lower weight crank never has a bolt loosening problem so I would assume Kohler designed the Command, then found they needed a lot cheaper engine because owners were too cheap to pay for good quality engines so swapped out a few expensive items to make the Courage.
Yes, the side walls are too thin
Yes the rocker cover is difficult to keep sealed unless you go to the effort of changing the $ 4.00 gasket every time and do it up with a tension wrench.
And yes the old side valve engines were easier to do routine servicing on, till you had to do something like adjust valve lash on.
However comparing the old side bangers to modern OHV engines is totally irrevelant as they were much better built, in fact substaintally over engineered and were 10 times the price / Hp of modern engines ( adjusted for inflation )
The 8Hp on my 1966 Rover Rancher II cost $ 600 Aus when new, in 1966 the average weekly take home male pay including overtime & bonuses was $ 85 so there was good profit in making them.
We all convienentally forget about this about this when making comparisons and keep thinking a 1966 $ is the same as as 2015 $
So a real comparison would be between it and an 8Hp engine in the $ 3000 + range which of course is not the Courage series.
Otoh, the bucket dedign is a pleasure to work on, you can do full internal surgery with the engine in place in the mower so there is 2 hours saved over anything other than the new Hondas with the diagonal closure.
You can get at all cowel bolts easily, without having to hang off the rafters or remove fuel tanks to get at the back 2 horizontal bolts found on just about everything else with a gravity tank, so two minutes for any Courage / Command as compared to 15 + minutes for a lot of Inteks ( mower dependant )
The hang down oil filters are easy to change cleanly without having 50 little different catch pans to slip under the horizontal oil filter and still spend 10 minutes of uncharagable time cleaning up the spilt oil and another 10 extra minutes trying to undo an oil filter that only has 5 degrees of accessable rotation to work with .
Both Courage & Inteks seem to have the same occurance of internal failures so there is not much difference there except the Courage is easier to work on.
Both the Courage & Command have exactly the same design and the Command, with a higher quality & lower weight crank never has a bolt loosening problem so I would assume Kohler designed the Command, then found they needed a lot cheaper engine because owners were too cheap to pay for good quality engines so swapped out a few expensive items to make the Courage.
#89
D
DaveTN
D
DaveTN
Bert...You're right, the bucket engine on the Courage is easier to access and inspect
the interior of the engine. Never thought about the cost in the 1960's or 70's to the
2010+ years, on the old mowers vs the new ones; and your math seems to work.
When I was a kid a riding mower was an expen$ive thing to buy, which is why we
never got one till I was an adult as I recall. All in all I suppose the Kohler Courage is
a mixed bucket of blessings and curses! :thumbsup: :thumbdown:
the interior of the engine. Never thought about the cost in the 1960's or 70's to the
2010+ years, on the old mowers vs the new ones; and your math seems to work.
When I was a kid a riding mower was an expen$ive thing to buy, which is why we
never got one till I was an adult as I recall. All in all I suppose the Kohler Courage is
a mixed bucket of blessings and curses! :thumbsup: :thumbdown:
#90
8
87nassaublue
Some kohler courage engines might be ok. I believe I read that the bigger v-twins were assembled in Mississipi. The parts might come from China though. The single cylinder courage engines are definitely built in China. I picked up a barely used 2012 troy bilt lawn tractor from the dump for free. It has a kohler courage 22 with a hole in the bottom of the block. I've done a good bit of reading of the problems, and have found there is a design issue with the oil pump that causes engine failure. There's also issues with the thin brittle block castings, plastic cam gears, the head gaskets, the valve guides slipping, overheating, excessive counterbalance wear and casting failure of internal parts.
All, I can say is WOW what a POS. Supposedly most issues were resolved after 2006, but the blown one I have is a barely used 2012 engine! The rubber flashing from the tires isn't even worn off yet. It looks like it might have not even made it through a whole cutting season. It's been sitting a good while. Well, I found an opposed twin cylinder flathead briggs to replace this blown kohler. Some kohler courage engines might be bullet proof, but with the long list of issues that continue to surface even on recent built courage engines, I won't be buying a kohler, unless it's almost free or totally free. I'll be happy to sell the undamaged parts on Ebay however. :laughing: Some people haven't given up on Kohlers quite yet.
8
87nassaublue
The Kohler Courage in my opinion is a good engine and there's nothing wrong with the courage if you maintain it the way it needs to be maintained. I've run three different courage motors in the last seven years in a lawn-care business (hundreds of hours) and never have had a problem with any of the three.
Some kohler courage engines might be ok. I believe I read that the bigger v-twins were assembled in Mississipi. The parts might come from China though. The single cylinder courage engines are definitely built in China. I picked up a barely used 2012 troy bilt lawn tractor from the dump for free. It has a kohler courage 22 with a hole in the bottom of the block. I've done a good bit of reading of the problems, and have found there is a design issue with the oil pump that causes engine failure. There's also issues with the thin brittle block castings, plastic cam gears, the head gaskets, the valve guides slipping, overheating, excessive counterbalance wear and casting failure of internal parts.
All, I can say is WOW what a POS. Supposedly most issues were resolved after 2006, but the blown one I have is a barely used 2012 engine! The rubber flashing from the tires isn't even worn off yet. It looks like it might have not even made it through a whole cutting season. It's been sitting a good while. Well, I found an opposed twin cylinder flathead briggs to replace this blown kohler. Some kohler courage engines might be bullet proof, but with the long list of issues that continue to surface even on recent built courage engines, I won't be buying a kohler, unless it's almost free or totally free. I'll be happy to sell the undamaged parts on Ebay however. :laughing: Some people haven't given up on Kohlers quite yet.
#91
M
motoman
M
motoman
This report is what Bert says about the HF Predators. What happened to the US management oversight on such offshore production? Please don't put this in front porch yet.:smile:
#92
Carscw
Carscw
I will take a kohler over a Kawasaki any time.
But will still take a old Briggs opposed head twin.
Over anything.
But will still take a old Briggs opposed head twin.
Over anything.
#93
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
As far as I have noticed the main difference between the courage & command is the crank.
The Command crank is a forging so it is fairly thin & relatively light.
The Courage crank looks like it is a high strength casting so it is thick & heavy.
The forging would cost 6 to 10 times more than the casting to make and the crank is the single most expensive part of the engine.
It accounts for somewhere between 1/3 to 1/4 the entire manufacturing cost of the engine.
Looking at the engine to me it appears that the crankcases are a bit light to properly support the heavy cast crank.
And the heavier the crank, the harder it is to balance and the more critical the balance becomes.
Having said that I have only had one failure and that was because the lying ex-customer had pulled the engine apart & dropped one of the dowels inside the cases with the predictiable end result.
I have seen 2 where the front bolts had come loose and I have around 150 - 200 Courages on my books as the local glass front floggs a lot of Kohler powered Huskies and now Kohler powered Sannli ( Chineese ).
Leaking rocker covers are very common probably 1 in 3 or 4
The Command crank is a forging so it is fairly thin & relatively light.
The Courage crank looks like it is a high strength casting so it is thick & heavy.
The forging would cost 6 to 10 times more than the casting to make and the crank is the single most expensive part of the engine.
It accounts for somewhere between 1/3 to 1/4 the entire manufacturing cost of the engine.
Looking at the engine to me it appears that the crankcases are a bit light to properly support the heavy cast crank.
And the heavier the crank, the harder it is to balance and the more critical the balance becomes.
Having said that I have only had one failure and that was because the lying ex-customer had pulled the engine apart & dropped one of the dowels inside the cases with the predictiable end result.
I have seen 2 where the front bolts had come loose and I have around 150 - 200 Courages on my books as the local glass front floggs a lot of Kohler powered Huskies and now Kohler powered Sannli ( Chineese ).
Leaking rocker covers are very common probably 1 in 3 or 4
#94
B
Boobaloo
Hi, Allen,
It could be that the muffler is full of carbon and heating up or the engine might be running too lean. I just got a Husqvarna as my "rough mower" and the engine (A single 20 HP) had a cracked block, with pieces of metal in the sump. This is a common problem i hear about and in my opinion, it is probably due to lack of oil/filter changes at the proper intervals. Granted, the Kohler Courage series might be a bit fragile, but the engine should provide good service with proper maintenance.
I was given a 19 HP Courage single by my Brother-In-Law after the transmission went bad on his rider, several years ago. I had the Courage Engine on an old MTD Turf Power for several years and when the sump bolts pulled out of the aluminum block on a 14 HP Briggs, in a 1994 Snapper, I installed the Courage on that. Now, the Courage is on the Husqvarna. I always use Synthetic oil and change the filter with every oil change. So far, the engine has done well.
Best of luck with your ZTR. Since you posted this several years ago, I'd be interested how the Courage performed and held up. Mine has been going for at least 7 or 8 years.
Boobaloo
B
Boobaloo
I recently purchased a 5 year old Ariens Zero Turn with a 23 hp Kohler Courage engine. Runs great, other than it burns the grass if i sit too long in one spot. Seller claimed it had about 150 hrs. Should I be worried? The Kohlers don't seem to get much love on this board. Thanks
Hi, Allen,
It could be that the muffler is full of carbon and heating up or the engine might be running too lean. I just got a Husqvarna as my "rough mower" and the engine (A single 20 HP) had a cracked block, with pieces of metal in the sump. This is a common problem i hear about and in my opinion, it is probably due to lack of oil/filter changes at the proper intervals. Granted, the Kohler Courage series might be a bit fragile, but the engine should provide good service with proper maintenance.
I was given a 19 HP Courage single by my Brother-In-Law after the transmission went bad on his rider, several years ago. I had the Courage Engine on an old MTD Turf Power for several years and when the sump bolts pulled out of the aluminum block on a 14 HP Briggs, in a 1994 Snapper, I installed the Courage on that. Now, the Courage is on the Husqvarna. I always use Synthetic oil and change the filter with every oil change. So far, the engine has done well.
Best of luck with your ZTR. Since you posted this several years ago, I'd be interested how the Courage performed and held up. Mine has been going for at least 7 or 8 years.
Boobaloo
#95
B
Boobaloo
IF you can find parts for the Briggs Opposed. Blocks are NLA and have to be re-machined in some instances to save the motor.
B
Boobaloo
I will take a kohler over a Kawasaki any time.
But will still take a old Briggs opposed head twin.
Over anything.
IF you can find parts for the Briggs Opposed. Blocks are NLA and have to be re-machined in some instances to save the motor.
#96
Carscw
Parts are everywhere.
Very popular engine for us that build off road mowers.
Carscw
IF you can find parts for the Briggs Opposed. Blocks are NLA and have to be re-machined in some instances to save the motor.
Parts are everywhere.
Very popular engine for us that build off road mowers.
#97
8
87nassaublue
Free is usually always good. That's how I got my troybilt lawn tractor with the bad kohler courage engine. I replaced the bad engine with an opposed twin briggs which I love. When I married my wife she had a nice looking husky with a 19 kohler courage that had started leaking oil. It had low hours. I sold that thing while it ran good and before it self destructed. I know some people have been lucky and gotten decent service from the courage engine, but knowing what I know, I'd never spend good money on one.
8
87nassaublue
Hi, Allen,
It could be that the muffler is full of carbon and heating up or the engine might be running too lean. I just got a Husqvarna as my "rough mower" and the engine (A single 20 HP) had a cracked block, with pieces of metal in the sump. This is a common problem i hear about and in my opinion, it is probably due to lack of oil/filter changes at the proper intervals. Granted, the Kohler Courage series might be a bit fragile, but the engine should provide good service with proper maintenance.
I was given a 19 HP Courage single by my Brother-In-Law after the transmission went bad on his rider, several years ago. I had the Courage Engine on an old MTD Turf Power for several years and when the sump bolts pulled out of the aluminum block on a 14 HP Briggs, in a 1994 Snapper, I installed the Courage on that. Now, the Courage is on the Husqvarna. I always use Synthetic oil and change the filter with every oil change. So far, the engine has done well.
Best of luck with your ZTR. Since you posted this several years ago, I'd be interested how the Courage performed and held up. Mine has been going for at least 7 or 8 years.
Boobaloo
Free is usually always good. That's how I got my troybilt lawn tractor with the bad kohler courage engine. I replaced the bad engine with an opposed twin briggs which I love. When I married my wife she had a nice looking husky with a 19 kohler courage that had started leaking oil. It had low hours. I sold that thing while it ran good and before it self destructed. I know some people have been lucky and gotten decent service from the courage engine, but knowing what I know, I'd never spend good money on one.
#98
Y
YLG80
Y
YLG80
Yes, according to me the design and manufacturing are very weak.
I own a Kohler Courage 19HP SV590S mounted on a Toro Z4200 zero turn. (Year 2009)
The engine is now death.
The engine was correctly maintained with frequent oil and air filter changes.
Problems were starting 2 years ago with loose engine cover bolts under the magnetic flywheel (bolts heads were filed by the flywheel and oil loss.)
Known problem because Kohler issued a Service Bulletin about that issue.
Of course the end users are not receiving the SB.
Soon after, I've remarked a long crack in the engine carter, back side from below the engine cover, near the muffler.
I've repaired that crack and the engine was running ok up to yesterday, Sept 2016.
Yesterday, I tried to start the engine for mowing as usual and there was a big clac, followed by a loud detonation.
Engine broken.
I guess that the plastic gears for the cams are gone to ghost. Perhaps there is another hole in the casing.
Engine not yet removed.
The problem with lose bolts is known. Poor workmanship, no use of thread lock.
The problem of cracks is also well known with this type of engine. Foundry problem?
For sure, I will not even try to repair such an engine and I will replace it by an hopefully better B&S Intek OHV AVS 19.5HP.(same bolting pattern)
That is really bad, because I own an old National mower (golf mower) since years and the Kohler engine on that machine is really good and reliable.
But that old engine is not made with plastic and poor aluminum casing.
I cannot believe that the Kohler Courage engines are U.S made.
If yes they should go for LEAN design and Manufacturing.
Yves. (Belgium)
I own a Kohler Courage 19HP SV590S mounted on a Toro Z4200 zero turn. (Year 2009)
The engine is now death.
The engine was correctly maintained with frequent oil and air filter changes.
Problems were starting 2 years ago with loose engine cover bolts under the magnetic flywheel (bolts heads were filed by the flywheel and oil loss.)
Known problem because Kohler issued a Service Bulletin about that issue.
Of course the end users are not receiving the SB.
Soon after, I've remarked a long crack in the engine carter, back side from below the engine cover, near the muffler.
I've repaired that crack and the engine was running ok up to yesterday, Sept 2016.
Yesterday, I tried to start the engine for mowing as usual and there was a big clac, followed by a loud detonation.
Engine broken.
I guess that the plastic gears for the cams are gone to ghost. Perhaps there is another hole in the casing.
Engine not yet removed.
The problem with lose bolts is known. Poor workmanship, no use of thread lock.
The problem of cracks is also well known with this type of engine. Foundry problem?
For sure, I will not even try to repair such an engine and I will replace it by an hopefully better B&S Intek OHV AVS 19.5HP.(same bolting pattern)
That is really bad, because I own an old National mower (golf mower) since years and the Kohler engine on that machine is really good and reliable.
But that old engine is not made with plastic and poor aluminum casing.
I cannot believe that the Kohler Courage engines are U.S made.
If yes they should go for LEAN design and Manufacturing.
Yves. (Belgium)
#99
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
If you read the entire thread you will see were the Kohler Krack originates from.
The original design had a forged crankshaft and the cases were designed for the lighter thinner forging.
The Courage came about because people would not pay the price to make the engine economic so Kohler substituted a cast nodular iron crank for the steel forged crank to make a cheap engine.
Because the crank is heavier and the counter weight is heavier you get different vibrations .
The Commands never crack and the Courages do.
I have 50 or so Husqvarnas fitted with Courage engines .
The ones I service annually are going strong because I found out early that you have to remove the blower housing every year clean the cooling fins & check the tightness of the 4 bolts near the cylinder
I now have 3 customers who I did not service annually with Devcon in the crack and they are running fine.
Most of the Courages are well into the 500 hour territory and most are running strong.
I am about to do the repair to another this week.
The secret is to properly prepare the crack and to make sure you drill the root of the crack.
And I rarely ever use loktite , I don't believe in it.
One of the Cracked kohlers is in a commercial customers mower and he does about 500 hours / year and this is the 3rd year with the crack.
The original design had a forged crankshaft and the cases were designed for the lighter thinner forging.
The Courage came about because people would not pay the price to make the engine economic so Kohler substituted a cast nodular iron crank for the steel forged crank to make a cheap engine.
Because the crank is heavier and the counter weight is heavier you get different vibrations .
The Commands never crack and the Courages do.
I have 50 or so Husqvarnas fitted with Courage engines .
The ones I service annually are going strong because I found out early that you have to remove the blower housing every year clean the cooling fins & check the tightness of the 4 bolts near the cylinder
I now have 3 customers who I did not service annually with Devcon in the crack and they are running fine.
Most of the Courages are well into the 500 hour territory and most are running strong.
I am about to do the repair to another this week.
The secret is to properly prepare the crack and to make sure you drill the root of the crack.
And I rarely ever use loktite , I don't believe in it.
One of the Cracked kohlers is in a commercial customers mower and he does about 500 hours / year and this is the 3rd year with the crack.
#100
Y
YLG80
Y
YLG80
@bertsmobile1
Yes I've read your previous post about that issue.
Thanks for the explanation
However it does not make me more happy about the product and service quality.
There was a service bulletin about that problem and I was not informed by the mower seller.
He was not selling every day a Toro Z4200 @ about 2.900€ and should have contacted me.
In the car industry when a problem is found, usually the cars have to be returned to the garage to fix it.
He told me that he did not receive the SB. I cannot verify.
Here is what the SB mentioned :
Loose Cover Plate Reminder
Steps have been taken to prevent the future occurrence of loose cover plate bolts.
The dates for these guidelines took place at Serial No. 36285XXXX3.
If the cover plate bolts are found loose and the crankcase and gasket are intact, remove the loose bolts and inspect the
the crankcase for cracks or any other significant damage.
If none is found, apply blue Loctite® to the threads of the four bolts, reinstall and torque to 216 in.lbs (24.4 n.M).
Check the tightness of the other bolts and torque as necessary to 216 in.lbs (24.4 n.M)
A policy adjustment of 1 hour of labor applies.
They knew about the cracks in the crankcase and the loose bolts.
I have to add the my Kohler serial # is 3800219403 so way after these guidelines took place.
Yves
Yes I've read your previous post about that issue.
Thanks for the explanation
However it does not make me more happy about the product and service quality.
There was a service bulletin about that problem and I was not informed by the mower seller.
He was not selling every day a Toro Z4200 @ about 2.900€ and should have contacted me.
In the car industry when a problem is found, usually the cars have to be returned to the garage to fix it.
He told me that he did not receive the SB. I cannot verify
.Here is what the SB mentioned :
Loose Cover Plate Reminder
Steps have been taken to prevent the future occurrence of loose cover plate bolts.
The dates for these guidelines took place at Serial No. 36285XXXX3.
If the cover plate bolts are found loose and the crankcase and gasket are intact, remove the loose bolts and inspect the
the crankcase for cracks or any other significant damage.
If none is found, apply blue Loctite® to the threads of the four bolts, reinstall and torque to 216 in.lbs (24.4 n.M).
Check the tightness of the other bolts and torque as necessary to 216 in.lbs (24.4 n.M)
A policy adjustment of 1 hour of labor applies.
They knew about the cracks in the crankcase and the loose bolts.
I have to add the my Kohler serial # is 3800219403 so way after these guidelines took place.
Yves
#101
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
I am not trying to be critical of you and your are quite correct in that you should have been advised about this problem.
Honda appears to be the only company that actually does this and then it is only for the customers who complete the product registration.
I have never bought a new mower and have no plans to ever do so in the future so have no idea as to weather companies like Kohler actually keep customer records for the purpose of recalls & service advise notifications.
OTOH the mower should have been checked every time before use.
And if that was done the little sparkling fragments of the ground down bolts would have been clearly obvious.
When the crack first started a significant amount of oil would have started to leak out of it and that should have been obvious as well.
Apart from the visual the sound of the bolts being ground down should have been enough to alert you something was wrong.
It takes a long time for the bolts to back out enough to contact the flywheel and a simple turning of the flywheel by hand will produce a lot of grinding noise and be substantially more difficult like the mower was having a hydraulic lock.
You say the engine is beyond repair so there must be a lot more damage than just the crack.
The mower I am doing right now belong to a sporting club and had less than 100ml of oil left in the engine .
There was only a few dribbles of oil on the floor where it is parked so I would assume that they had been mowing the 2 acre of the field every week with almost no oil in the engine.
SO if yours blew up you must have been running with the crack for a long time.
The previous one I did belongs to a contractor and he noticed that after about 1.5 hours of use the engine would cut out which is why he brought it in for service thinking he had a fuel pump problem.
I noticed the oil was low so topped it up and mowed for 2 hours with no problems apart from running low on oil again which was tracked down to leaks from the crack.
So if you have totally destroyed your engine then you have not been taking as good care of it as you think you are.
Honda appears to be the only company that actually does this and then it is only for the customers who complete the product registration.
I have never bought a new mower and have no plans to ever do so in the future so have no idea as to weather companies like Kohler actually keep customer records for the purpose of recalls & service advise notifications.
OTOH the mower should have been checked every time before use.
And if that was done the little sparkling fragments of the ground down bolts would have been clearly obvious.
When the crack first started a significant amount of oil would have started to leak out of it and that should have been obvious as well.
Apart from the visual the sound of the bolts being ground down should have been enough to alert you something was wrong.
It takes a long time for the bolts to back out enough to contact the flywheel and a simple turning of the flywheel by hand will produce a lot of grinding noise and be substantially more difficult like the mower was having a hydraulic lock.
You say the engine is beyond repair so there must be a lot more damage than just the crack.
The mower I am doing right now belong to a sporting club and had less than 100ml of oil left in the engine .
There was only a few dribbles of oil on the floor where it is parked so I would assume that they had been mowing the 2 acre of the field every week with almost no oil in the engine.
SO if yours blew up you must have been running with the crack for a long time.
The previous one I did belongs to a contractor and he noticed that after about 1.5 hours of use the engine would cut out which is why he brought it in for service thinking he had a fuel pump problem.
I noticed the oil was low so topped it up and mowed for 2 hours with no problems apart from running low on oil again which was tracked down to leaks from the crack.
So if you have totally destroyed your engine then you have not been taking as good care of it as you think you are.
#102
8
87nassaublue
8
87nassaublue
I'm sorry, but if you have to go to that much effort to keep the engine from self destructing, it's just not a quality engine. Any engine that is expected to crack, dump oil and have catastrophic failures when used for the purpose it was intended for is a POS.
#103
Y
YLG80
Y
YLG80
@ bertsmobile1
Thanks for the information on Honda. For sure they have the company culture as in Toyota (TPS)
Husqvarna is also doing that if you have registered your product.
The symptoms you described in your last post are describing exactly what happened to me.
When I've detected the oil leakage, it was already too late for the crack.
I've observed also a noise difference, but that change comes very gradually I suppose.
I guess it starts with a small leakage increasing when the top engine cover screws are becoming very loose.
I'm not completely sure that the engine is fully destroyed. I will open it later, likely during the winter.
There was still a good compression when I've tried to start the engine and before something broke inside.
The problem could be that device used to maintain the exhaust valve slightly opened when starting the engine.
For sure there is something broken that prevents the valves to work correctly.
I will check that later, because the first thing to do is to restart my Toro.
The grass will not wait for me to grow !
Anyway it is really very easy to replace the Kohler SV590S 19HP by a brand new B&S Intek engine.
I just need to make the electric connections and I'm back to the mowing job.
The rest is fully compatible.(bolting pattern, crankshaft dimension, fuel piping, throttle/choke etc ... )
The only thing that needs to be changed is the muffler. Or perhaps the original could be used with an homemade adapter.
BTW I agree with 87nassablue.
Before the first thing to die was the mower deck.
The engine was still very good and could be transplanted on another device, or sold, or used for something else...
Now the engine dies first !
For me, my mower is a tool that should work about 75-80 hours per year with a normal maintenance during the season and a winter maintenance/cleanup
without having to dismantle everything to detect cracks or other odd failures.
PS
When the Toro did not start, I've restarted a very old 1989 MTD, no longer used. It has a 12HP B&S engine.
No problem to start the engine and no problem to mow.
The deck is very rusted with holes which is the reason why we are no longer using that tractor.
I hope that the Intek engine will be as good as that old engine.
No sure though, for the reasons you mentioned before.:laughing:
Thanks for the information on Honda. For sure they have the company culture as in Toyota (TPS)
Husqvarna is also doing that if you have registered your product.
The symptoms you described in your last post are describing exactly what happened to me.
When I've detected the oil leakage, it was already too late for the crack.
I've observed also a noise difference, but that change comes very gradually I suppose.
I guess it starts with a small leakage increasing when the top engine cover screws are becoming very loose.
I'm not completely sure that the engine is fully destroyed. I will open it later, likely during the winter.
There was still a good compression when I've tried to start the engine and before something broke inside.
The problem could be that device used to maintain the exhaust valve slightly opened when starting the engine.
For sure there is something broken that prevents the valves to work correctly.
I will check that later, because the first thing to do is to restart my Toro.
The grass will not wait for me to grow
!Anyway it is really very easy to replace the Kohler SV590S 19HP by a brand new B&S Intek engine.
I just need to make the electric connections and I'm back to the mowing job.
The rest is fully compatible.(bolting pattern, crankshaft dimension, fuel piping, throttle/choke etc ... )
The only thing that needs to be changed is the muffler. Or perhaps the original could be used with an homemade adapter.
BTW I agree with 87nassablue.
Before the first thing to die was the mower deck.
The engine was still very good and could be transplanted on another device, or sold, or used for something else...
Now the engine dies first !
For me, my mower is a tool that should work about 75-80 hours per year with a normal maintenance during the season and a winter maintenance/cleanup
without having to dismantle everything to detect cracks or other odd failures.
PS
When the Toro did not start, I've restarted a very old 1989 MTD, no longer used. It has a 12HP B&S engine.
No problem to start the engine and no problem to mow.
The deck is very rusted with holes which is the reason why we are no longer using that tractor.
I hope that the Intek engine will be as good as that old engine.
No sure though, for the reasons you mentioned before.:laughing:
#104
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
IT all comes down to price.
Mowers are very very very cheap, in real terms.
Part & parcel of that is the adoption of the Ford principle.
Everything is downgraded to the life of the most vunerable part so it all falls apart together thus you will replace it.
Computers have allowed this to be taken to a very fine level.
Thus almost no modern mower will have sound major componants worth keeping.
The Kohler Krack seems to be quite random, some do some don't.
For me it is a no brainer as I always remove the cooling shroud to clean the fins as part of a regular service, so it is 30 sec more to slip a spannar on the bolt heads.
If there is no major damage , I drill about 5mm ahead of the visible root of the crack then grind out the crack from each side with V cutter in my Dremel tool and then fill the crack from both sides with either POR 15 filler or Devcon filler.
They seem to work very well if the top plate still has clean bolt holes.
IF the holes flogged out oval then it gets replaced.
Some of these have been running 3 years without fail another couple have needed to be redone as the filler I used on them was not up to the job.
I charge $ 400 + parts for this which is a lot quicker & easier to do than it sounds as the only internal part removed in the exhaust cam and you can do it with the engine still in the mower provided you remove both of the belts.
The mower came with an intek as the standard engine, then the Kohler was the upgraded engine on the Briggs and the kawakasi was the top shelf option.
IF you fit the Briggs , please put a fuel tap in the fuel line.
The carb is not particularly good and the float valve leaks fuel into the engine which will blow the head gasket which is a very weak link in that engine design.
If it is a brand new intek, pull the rocker cover off, clean off all the silicon then fit a gasket so you can do a valve adjustment very easy.
PIA to clean off the silicon in situ, then run a new bead and bolt it up gain knowing that you should be repeating this every 2 to 3 years.
Old rocker covers have a sealing ridge in them to make a better seal on the gasket, new ones don't ( cheaper to make ).
A thin wipe of heavy wheel bearing bentonite grease on the gasket before it goes on will allow it to be stripped several times without damage.
Mowers are very very very cheap, in real terms.
Part & parcel of that is the adoption of the Ford principle.
Everything is downgraded to the life of the most vunerable part so it all falls apart together thus you will replace it.
Computers have allowed this to be taken to a very fine level.
Thus almost no modern mower will have sound major componants worth keeping.
The Kohler Krack seems to be quite random, some do some don't.
For me it is a no brainer as I always remove the cooling shroud to clean the fins as part of a regular service, so it is 30 sec more to slip a spannar on the bolt heads.
If there is no major damage , I drill about 5mm ahead of the visible root of the crack then grind out the crack from each side with V cutter in my Dremel tool and then fill the crack from both sides with either POR 15 filler or Devcon filler.
They seem to work very well if the top plate still has clean bolt holes.
IF the holes flogged out oval then it gets replaced.
Some of these have been running 3 years without fail another couple have needed to be redone as the filler I used on them was not up to the job.
I charge $ 400 + parts for this which is a lot quicker & easier to do than it sounds as the only internal part removed in the exhaust cam and you can do it with the engine still in the mower provided you remove both of the belts.
The mower came with an intek as the standard engine, then the Kohler was the upgraded engine on the Briggs and the kawakasi was the top shelf option.
IF you fit the Briggs , please put a fuel tap in the fuel line.
The carb is not particularly good and the float valve leaks fuel into the engine which will blow the head gasket which is a very weak link in that engine design.
If it is a brand new intek, pull the rocker cover off, clean off all the silicon then fit a gasket so you can do a valve adjustment very easy.
PIA to clean off the silicon in situ, then run a new bead and bolt it up gain knowing that you should be repeating this every 2 to 3 years.
Old rocker covers have a sealing ridge in them to make a better seal on the gasket, new ones don't ( cheaper to make ).
A thin wipe of heavy wheel bearing bentonite grease on the gasket before it goes on will allow it to be stripped several times without damage.
#105
Y
YLG80
This is exactly what I did with the Kohler engine. I've used a high pressure and temperature dual components filler.
Thanks also for your advice on the B&S Intek engine.
Y
YLG80
If there is no major damage , I drill about 5mm ahead of the visible root of the crack then grind out the crack from each side with V cutter in my Dremel tool and then fill the crack from both sides with either POR 15 filler or Devcon filler.
They seem to work very well if the top plate still has clean bolt holes.
This is exactly what I did with the Kohler engine. I've used a high pressure and temperature dual components filler.
Thanks also for your advice on the B&S Intek engine.
#106
S
Southland
S
Southland
I have a Courage 22 V-Twin, SV715, build date of 10/8/2007 with 300 hours on it. It's on a Troy-Bilt zero turn mower. I have not had any problems with it. I live in the south with hot summers and only use full synthetic oil. My only complaint with the engine is that I hate the air filter. The prefilter is useless since it is not a very tall filter.
#107
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
You can replace it with a bolt on donaldson remote filter.
The same one as fitted new to the commercial Kawakasi engines.
An excellent filter and worthy upgrade.
The fiters are not much more expensive than the genuine Kohler item and everyone who does aftermarket parts has a replacement.
THE fitting kit is he only problem as it makes removing the blower housing tedious.
I move it , remote to the engine and fit a longer ducting.
The same one as fitted new to the commercial Kawakasi engines.
An excellent filter and worthy upgrade.
The fiters are not much more expensive than the genuine Kohler item and everyone who does aftermarket parts has a replacement.
THE fitting kit is he only problem as it makes removing the blower housing tedious.
I move it , remote to the engine and fit a longer ducting.
#108
S
Southland
Do you have the parts number that you used as a replacement? Or photos? I did a search, but couldn't find the right items.
Thanks.
S
Southland
You can replace it with a bolt on donaldson remote filter.
The same one as fitted new to the commercial Kawakasi engines.
An excellent filter and worthy upgrade.
The fiters are not much more expensive than the genuine Kohler item and everyone who does aftermarket parts has a replacement.
THE fitting kit is he only problem as it makes removing the blower housing tedious.
I move it , remote to the engine and fit a longer ducting.
Do you have the parts number that you used as a replacement? Or photos? I did a search, but couldn't find the right items.
Thanks.
#109
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
This is the bad kit which has the filer attached to the blower housing.
Easy to install but makes the blower housing difficult to remove so you never take it off to clean the engine & cook the heads
http://www.gaspares.com.au/program/OptionsOnline.cgi?TARGET_FORM=DETINFO&stockcode=KAWKIT2&CRUMB=09700832&GROUP=KAWP%20AIR%20KITR
remove the KAW from the front of the part numbers and you have the actual Kawakasi part number.
Google those numbers to find aftermarket alternatives . Kawwaka parts are very expensive.
The small images at the bottom are the two filter elements.
You change the larger outer about 4 times for every inner.
Most skid steers & big commercial mowers use this filter.
Off a rival forum a thread with lots of info & photos of installed filters.
http://www.lawnsite.com/threads/donaldson-air-filter-kit-upgrade-for-kohler-25-hp.35628/
OFf USA evilbay.
http://http://www.ebay.com/itm/DONALDSON-AIR-CLEANER-ASSEMBLY-Z-TURN-DIXIE-CHOPPER-MOWER-/172404006761?hash=item2824145f69
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DONALDSON-MILITARY-COMPLETE-AIR-CLEANER-FILTER-ASSEMBLY-HOUSING-900CFM-/331508469331?hash=item4d2f71ce53
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DONALDSON-AIR-CLEANER-G065424-Never-Used-with-New-Air-Filter-/272443095823?hash=item3f6edfbb0f
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Donaldson-G082525-Air-Filter-Housing-with-Filters-/152024016521?hash=item2365566689
And the Donaldson web site
https://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/filters/products/air-intake/cleaners.html
Easy to install but makes the blower housing difficult to remove so you never take it off to clean the engine & cook the heads
http://www.gaspares.com.au/program/OptionsOnline.cgi?TARGET_FORM=DETINFO&stockcode=KAWKIT2&CRUMB=09700832&GROUP=KAWP%20AIR%20KITR
remove the KAW from the front of the part numbers and you have the actual Kawakasi part number.
Google those numbers to find aftermarket alternatives . Kawwaka parts are very expensive.
The small images at the bottom are the two filter elements.
You change the larger outer about 4 times for every inner.
Most skid steers & big commercial mowers use this filter.
Off a rival forum a thread with lots of info & photos of installed filters.
http://www.lawnsite.com/threads/donaldson-air-filter-kit-upgrade-for-kohler-25-hp.35628/
OFf USA evilbay.
http://http://www.ebay.com/itm/DONALDSON-AIR-CLEANER-ASSEMBLY-Z-TURN-DIXIE-CHOPPER-MOWER-/172404006761?hash=item2824145f69
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DONALDSON-MILITARY-COMPLETE-AIR-CLEANER-FILTER-ASSEMBLY-HOUSING-900CFM-/331508469331?hash=item4d2f71ce53
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DONALDSON-AIR-CLEANER-G065424-Never-Used-with-New-Air-Filter-/272443095823?hash=item3f6edfbb0f
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Donaldson-G082525-Air-Filter-Housing-with-Filters-/152024016521?hash=item2365566689
And the Donaldson web site
https://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/filters/products/air-intake/cleaners.html
#110
N
nicky1
N
nicky1
I have read all the pages of this conversation and just wanted to add to it. I have a 2007 Cub SLT1550 with the Courage SV730 engine in it. It has 700 hrs on it and so far I have had no major problems with it. I change oil and filter every 50 hrs [ I use Tractor Supply 30 HD ], a little MMO in each change and occasionally a little amount of Seafoam in the gas tank. I keep the tractor and engine clean and occasionally I take off the plastic engine shroud to blow the dust from under the flywheel and clean the air fins.It has no oil leaks and runs as good as it did when new.
The only problem I have had with it is hard starting. The starter doesn't have enough torque to turn the engine past the compression stroke when cold. I have Installed a bigger CCA battery. All cables and connections are tight and in good shape. There seems to be an argument as to whether this engine has ACR or not. I have done the valve adjustment and it didn't help. It may explode tomorrow but otherwise it's been a good machine.
Anyway just my 2 cents worth, nicky
The only problem I have had with it is hard starting. The starter doesn't have enough torque to turn the engine past the compression stroke when cold. I have Installed a bigger CCA battery. All cables and connections are tight and in good shape. There seems to be an argument as to whether this engine has ACR or not. I have done the valve adjustment and it didn't help. It may explode tomorrow but otherwise it's been a good machine.
Anyway just my 2 cents worth, nicky
#111
R
Rocky J
R
Rocky J
I have had a single cylinder Courage that the bolts came loose on top and it cracked the block at 68 hours, the good was the internal parts brought a fortune on EBAY, I replaced it with a Kohler Command Vertical 16, shorten a few wires and lengthen a few and a homemade header pipe to connect the exhaust. I still have a Courage Twin cylinder on the TroyBuilt RZT and I push it hard and it takes it fine ,has close to 200 hours on it.
#112
B
bertsmobile1
Buy a couple of rocker cover gaskets then next time you take the blower housing off and the motor is stone cold, adjust the valve lash.
Your symptoms are typical of the gap on the exhaust valve getting too big so the engine does not decompress enough for the starter to crank the engine.
I get a dozen of mowers like this every season, usually after the owner has
1) fitted a bigger battery
2) replaced the starter
3) replaced the solenoid
4) been jump starting it for a season or two.
When you refit the gasket, fut some sealant on the cover side ( I like Hylomar ) and heavy axle grease on the engine side.
This way it will strip clean and won't leak.
Do not overtighten the gasket, the bolts really only barely get tightened past finger tight or you cut the gasket & distort the rocker cover and it will leak.
If you are servicing by book hours you check the valve lash every second oil filter ( around 200 hrs ) and please check those front 4 engine cover bolts every time you pull that blower housing off
B
bertsmobile1
I have read all the pages of this conversation and just wanted to add to it. I have a 2007 Cub SLT1550 with the Courage SV730 engine in it. It has 700 hrs on it and so far I have had no major problems with it. I change oil and filter every 50 hrs [ I use Tractor Supply 30 HD ], a little MMO in each change and occasionally a little amount of Seafoam in the gas tank. I keep the tractor and engine clean and occasionally I take off the plastic engine shroud to blow the dust from under the flywheel and clean the air fins.It has no oil leaks and runs as good as it did when new.
The only problem I have had with it is hard starting. The starter doesn't have enough torque to turn the engine past the compression stroke when cold. I have Installed a bigger CCA battery. All cables and connections are tight and in good shape. There seems to be an argument as to whether this engine has ACR or not. I have done the valve adjustment and it didn't help. It may explode tomorrow but otherwise it's been a good machine.
Anyway just my 2 cents worth, nicky
Buy a couple of rocker cover gaskets then next time you take the blower housing off and the motor is stone cold, adjust the valve lash.
Your symptoms are typical of the gap on the exhaust valve getting too big so the engine does not decompress enough for the starter to crank the engine.
I get a dozen of mowers like this every season, usually after the owner has
1) fitted a bigger battery
2) replaced the starter
3) replaced the solenoid
4) been jump starting it for a season or two.
When you refit the gasket, fut some sealant on the cover side ( I like Hylomar ) and heavy axle grease on the engine side.
This way it will strip clean and won't leak.
Do not overtighten the gasket, the bolts really only barely get tightened past finger tight or you cut the gasket & distort the rocker cover and it will leak.
If you are servicing by book hours you check the valve lash every second oil filter ( around 200 hrs ) and please check those front 4 engine cover bolts every time you pull that blower housing off
#113
N
nicky1
N
nicky1
I have done the valve adjustment cold. I check it every spring. As for the cover bolts I removed the Flywheel 3 or 4 yrs ago put a little dab of breakaway strength thread lock on all those bolts and torqued them to specs after hearing all the horror stories of them coming loose and trashing the engine.
Thanks for the input, nicky
Thanks for the input, nicky
#115
C
ChrisBFRPKY
C
ChrisBFRPKY
Kohler Courage single cylinder engines are worse than bad, they were and are poorly designed junk. I took the time to register here to get this message out and put my .02 cents on the record as well. I've seen some defending the Kohler Courage engine in this thread and I have no doubt Kohler pays a service like "Reputation Defender" to go online and pour water on any hot spots about that engine. So let's just get this over with now. Kohler's design was a flop. From the paper thin aluminum block casting to the internal syncro balance they "borrowed" from Briggs. Vibration vibration vibration, leads to loose bolts, leads to flywheel to engine bolt contact and then engine block destruction. Now let's say the average Joe consumer maintains his engine above average. Changes the oil every 15 to 20 hours, uses the best synthetic oil money can buy, performs valve adjustments, carb cleaning and changes filters all as a matter of routine all in hopes of preventing problems down the road. After all Joe doesn't make a lot of money and he wants to protect the investment he made on that new Cub Cadet because it has to last. His buddy bought one a few weeks earlier than Joe and Joe wants to make sure his outlasts his buddy's. With all that loving care of his engine Joe's surely going to get a long service life out of his investment right? Wrong. When the poorly designed balance system decides one day to just free itself and escape thru the rear of the engine block, Joe learns something important about the Kohler Courage single cylinder engine. Now while Joe is nursing his second degree burns from the hot engine oil that splashed his feet and ankles, (yes Joe usually mows in sandles) he starts to research his engine online and finds he is not alone. It wasn't a fluke, it was a Kohler Courage. It's a common documented design failure of the Kohler Courage single cylinder engines. As luck would have it Joe's engine was just outside of the warranty period so no help from Kohler or Cub Cadet. Joe is just glad the engine exploded on him and not his wife or son who could have been just as likely using the mower at the time the Kohler Courage went. Exploding engines during normal operation, that's what Joe now thinks about all of Kohler's engine products. Oh they used to make some great engines back during the old cast iron K series days but now I wouldn't walk near to one while it's in use. The Kohler Courage single cylinder engines are grenades and the minute you start them you may pull the pin. All ended well enough for Joe, as it turned out his buddy's engine went the same way his did. It exploded out the back of the block. So Joe replaced the Kohler scrap iron engine with an old single cylinder vertical Briggs engine, a used one from the 1990's with a syncro balance system that actually works. He still uses the Cub Cadet weekly and pleasantly notices that even though the 16.5HP Briggs engine has a smaller HP rating it has more power than the 20HP Kohler Courage single ever did! So Joe says whenever you're looking at a new or used riding mower, lift the hood. If it says "Kohler Courage" RUN AWAY! DON'T WALK, RUN AWAY! If it is running at the time, your life is in danger. Now it's a free Country so if you choose to go ahead with your Kohler Courage purchase and decide to roll the dice for whatever reason (death wish, tired of living, terminal cancer) Joe says this is the engine that may put you out of your misery. Otherwise, if you want to live, at least wear a full array of safety equipment and steel toe boots up to your hips.
#116
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
Chris your post has so much misinformation it is a figment of your imagination. Yes there was loose cover bolts issues, Yes there was some early starter issues, and yes they had some counterbalance issues. Most were ;limited to the first series of engines, and after getting the bolt torque corrected didn't see the loose cover bolt issues after that. And to make it right to the customers that had purchased that engines Kohler even extended the engine several years past the normal warranty expiration date for the counterbalance issue to cover the engine failures. Basically if the customer could produce his original purchase receipt they covered it under warranty for a replacement short block.
And just so you know the 5400 series uses the same bucket engine style block that uses counterbalance shafts instead of the sliding weight like Briggs,
And just so you know the 5400 series uses the same bucket engine style block that uses counterbalance shafts instead of the sliding weight like Briggs,
#117
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
I always love a conspiracy theory being tossed in because some do not take some ones line of arguement hook line & sinker.
So yes there were some problems with the engine but Kohler made the effort to rectify them for a very long time after normal warranty had run out.
I believe it was 4 years in the USA
Add to that it was a random fault .
I have better than 50 Husqvarna mowers in my service run all fitted with Courages .
Now I have a sneaky that these were dumped down into Aus the same way Husqvarna dumped all the pro-Riders that flipped because they were sold here at a big discount.
Of those 50 or so 2 developed the Kohler crack and probably 5 or 6 had loose bolts when they came in for service which as with Nicky 1 said a couple of drops of blue loctite and problem was solved.
Six of them are used commercially and all of those now have between 1000 & 2000 hours on them with no problems other than the hydros getting very tired ( got one in for repair right now ) .
Yet to see one with a tossed counter weight, a system that has been in use on single cylinders for near 100 years , so no Briggs did not invent it so no Kohler did not steal it from them .
I am sorry that you obviously had problems with your Courage but your rantings are some what out of place.
See I am not Joe Average I am Berts Mobile Mower Repairs and started my professional career as a a Foundry Metallurgist so unlike Joe IGNORANT I do know a thing or two about castings.
And there is nothing wrong with the casting it is an excellent design , in fact the entire engine is an excellent design as I do not get burned 20 times a day from hot oil gushing from an oil filter mounted horizontally in an inaccessable place that has to be removed by hand .
The top closure plate means I can fix Joe Not Too Cheap's mower for $ 120 less than the equivalent Briggs because it can stay in the mower for a decompressor change and I certainly can not do that with the 6 ( on average ) 31 series Briggs cams I fit every year ( when Briggs finally decides to supply them ) and 2 to 3 4000 series cams that seem to wear round
A blower housing that comes off with 4 x 6mm bolts all pointing directly upward so you do not have to remove the fuel tank in order to remove the blower housing to CLEAN THE ENGINE EVERY SEASON which if Joe Average actually did, then chances are he would have noticed the loose bolts, that is of course assuming he was not on his 10 Bud while doing it . A painful job to do on any B & S engine requiring a 3/8 spannar , because you can not get a socket or gear wrench onto the rear bolts then either a 3/8 or T40 for the fronts,that is of course if the casting has not broken away and some time an additional 5/16 + phillips if he blower housing is under a bigger blower housing so the SV engine can pretend to look like an OHV engine and of course the 1/4" to remove the fuel pump.
That is not good design , it is minimum fastener price design to make the engine as cheap as humanly possible and a PIA for Joe Average to service.
The Kohler top cover comes of again with easy to access bolts all the same size & T 27 to slip the throttle control off .
Having had a very close examination of the entire casting, before welding the cracks and being, an experienced non-ferrous foundry person I would guess and it is just a guess that the engine was originally designed to use the same forged crankshaft as is fitted to the command .
This would be sound engineering practice as a forged crankshaft is around1/3 the cost of the entire engine so using the same one would have brought in big economies of scale.
However some one decided to fit a cheaper malleable cast iron crankshaft which has to be substantially thicker than the equivalent strength forged one but only 1/2 the price.
This would have thrown the vibration dynamics for the engine way out , thus the loosening front bolts and of course gobbled up a lot of the potential power from the engine .
The Courage engines are still being made in Kohlers Chinese factory and we get lots of cheap chinese Husqvarna knock offs fitted with 21 Hp courage singles that run like a dream.
I have about a dozen of them in the service run and they are actually a cut above the USA made ones.
Don't know if the crank is cast or forged because I am yet to pull a top cover off any of them , but the engine does run smoother and seems to respond to the governor much faster.
And by the way using synthetic oil in an engine not designed to run synthetic oil can destroy the engine in no time flat particularly if it is a lighter grade because the synthetics flow smoother so they don't hold critical oil pressure when uses in engines that have pressure fed cranks designed to run on the heavier mono grade or standard multi grades oils . Synthetics also splash quite differently so can be a problem getting to little ends on vertical shaft engines and they tend to drain faster from the top bearing oil dam on full splash engine making them more prone to siezing when being driven on slopes.
And this is an OBSERVED FACT coming from diagnosing destroyed engine running on full synthetic oil, cause Joe Average thinks he knows more about oil than the engineers who designed the engine .
And NO I AM NOT A KOHLER STOOGE, I am a certified kohler technicain ( via the on line course only ) but do not have any affiliation with Kohler as they demanded I keep a $ 30,000 Kohler inventory in order to open an account which I have no intention of doing.
Which is anything makes me alitle pisse at Kohler for making me wste several hour of my time siting their on line exam .
And I definately am not a paid "Reputation Defender" I am a plain speaking Aussie
And to me you just seem like a person which a very bad case of Schit on the Liver desperate to vent their spleen at every oppertunity.
And if you were really mowing in open toed shoes then an idiot to boot .
Exactly how boiling hot oil would manage to escape from the crankcase magically bypass the dash turret then deep fry you feet is again beyond my imagination as if the counterweight let go it would be near impossible for it to go through the side of the engine unless some one had been tampering with the governor & had the engine reving way over the 5000 rpm safe limit.
So yes there were some problems with the engine but Kohler made the effort to rectify them for a very long time after normal warranty had run out.
I believe it was 4 years in the USA
Add to that it was a random fault .
I have better than 50 Husqvarna mowers in my service run all fitted with Courages .
Now I have a sneaky that these were dumped down into Aus the same way Husqvarna dumped all the pro-Riders that flipped because they were sold here at a big discount.
Of those 50 or so 2 developed the Kohler crack and probably 5 or 6 had loose bolts when they came in for service which as with Nicky 1 said a couple of drops of blue loctite and problem was solved.
Six of them are used commercially and all of those now have between 1000 & 2000 hours on them with no problems other than the hydros getting very tired ( got one in for repair right now ) .
Yet to see one with a tossed counter weight, a system that has been in use on single cylinders for near 100 years , so no Briggs did not invent it so no Kohler did not steal it from them .
I am sorry that you obviously had problems with your Courage but your rantings are some what out of place.
See I am not Joe Average I am Berts Mobile Mower Repairs and started my professional career as a a Foundry Metallurgist so unlike Joe IGNORANT I do know a thing or two about castings.
And there is nothing wrong with the casting it is an excellent design , in fact the entire engine is an excellent design as I do not get burned 20 times a day from hot oil gushing from an oil filter mounted horizontally in an inaccessable place that has to be removed by hand .
The top closure plate means I can fix Joe Not Too Cheap's mower for $ 120 less than the equivalent Briggs because it can stay in the mower for a decompressor change and I certainly can not do that with the 6 ( on average ) 31 series Briggs cams I fit every year ( when Briggs finally decides to supply them ) and 2 to 3 4000 series cams that seem to wear round
A blower housing that comes off with 4 x 6mm bolts all pointing directly upward so you do not have to remove the fuel tank in order to remove the blower housing to CLEAN THE ENGINE EVERY SEASON which if Joe Average actually did, then chances are he would have noticed the loose bolts, that is of course assuming he was not on his 10 Bud while doing it . A painful job to do on any B & S engine requiring a 3/8 spannar , because you can not get a socket or gear wrench onto the rear bolts then either a 3/8 or T40 for the fronts,that is of course if the casting has not broken away and some time an additional 5/16 + phillips if he blower housing is under a bigger blower housing so the SV engine can pretend to look like an OHV engine and of course the 1/4" to remove the fuel pump.
That is not good design , it is minimum fastener price design to make the engine as cheap as humanly possible and a PIA for Joe Average to service.
The Kohler top cover comes of again with easy to access bolts all the same size & T 27 to slip the throttle control off .
Having had a very close examination of the entire casting, before welding the cracks and being, an experienced non-ferrous foundry person I would guess and it is just a guess that the engine was originally designed to use the same forged crankshaft as is fitted to the command .
This would be sound engineering practice as a forged crankshaft is around1/3 the cost of the entire engine so using the same one would have brought in big economies of scale.
However some one decided to fit a cheaper malleable cast iron crankshaft which has to be substantially thicker than the equivalent strength forged one but only 1/2 the price.
This would have thrown the vibration dynamics for the engine way out , thus the loosening front bolts and of course gobbled up a lot of the potential power from the engine .
The Courage engines are still being made in Kohlers Chinese factory and we get lots of cheap chinese Husqvarna knock offs fitted with 21 Hp courage singles that run like a dream.
I have about a dozen of them in the service run and they are actually a cut above the USA made ones.
Don't know if the crank is cast or forged because I am yet to pull a top cover off any of them , but the engine does run smoother and seems to respond to the governor much faster.
And by the way using synthetic oil in an engine not designed to run synthetic oil can destroy the engine in no time flat particularly if it is a lighter grade because the synthetics flow smoother so they don't hold critical oil pressure when uses in engines that have pressure fed cranks designed to run on the heavier mono grade or standard multi grades oils . Synthetics also splash quite differently so can be a problem getting to little ends on vertical shaft engines and they tend to drain faster from the top bearing oil dam on full splash engine making them more prone to siezing when being driven on slopes.
And this is an OBSERVED FACT coming from diagnosing destroyed engine running on full synthetic oil, cause Joe Average thinks he knows more about oil than the engineers who designed the engine .
And NO I AM NOT A KOHLER STOOGE, I am a certified kohler technicain ( via the on line course only ) but do not have any affiliation with Kohler as they demanded I keep a $ 30,000 Kohler inventory in order to open an account which I have no intention of doing.
Which is anything makes me alitle pisse at Kohler for making me wste several hour of my time siting their on line exam .
And I definately am not a paid "Reputation Defender" I am a plain speaking Aussie
And to me you just seem like a person which a very bad case of Schit on the Liver desperate to vent their spleen at every oppertunity.
And if you were really mowing in open toed shoes then an idiot to boot .
Exactly how boiling hot oil would manage to escape from the crankcase magically bypass the dash turret then deep fry you feet is again beyond my imagination as if the counterweight let go it would be near impossible for it to go through the side of the engine unless some one had been tampering with the governor & had the engine reving way over the 5000 rpm safe limit.
#118
StarTech
StarTech
I agree Kohler initially had design problems which as company did the right thing in taking care of the problems by making good the bad engines. I have several Courage singles under my wing too and have only seen one with loose closure plate screws which I caught in time to prevent any serious damage. Kohler since re-enforced the cylinder to crankcase area which has prevented many of the previous problems.
The only real problem I had lately is the Courage single develop surging issues related to governor wear which I have found tweaking the static governor adjustment solves that problem. The only other problem is that rocker cover with the cork gasket that likes to leak which is resolved by using RTV.
BTW, I am only an independent shop owner and tech. As Berts put it there is no reason to have 30K in Kohler parts so I am not even going to try to get to the dealer level.
The only real problem I had lately is the Courage single develop surging issues related to governor wear which I have found tweaking the static governor adjustment solves that problem. The only other problem is that rocker cover with the cork gasket that likes to leak which is resolved by using RTV.
BTW, I am only an independent shop owner and tech. As Berts put it there is no reason to have 30K in Kohler parts so I am not even going to try to get to the dealer level.
#119
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
I check the top cover bolts with a wrench once a month, and that's when I clean the cooling fins, 5 minutes can save tons of headaches. It also gives me something to do
While the oil is draining.
While the oil is draining.
#120
C
ChrisBFRPKY
C
ChrisBFRPKY
Earning that Kohler pay are we? Well in fact everything I said above is well documented. The Kohler company even extended engine warranty to 5 years from 2 and they also had a special program for customers who had engines that grenaded in such a matter to send them a brand new short block. So facts are facts and slinging mud is a dirty business. But by all means don't take my word on it, verify......you have the internet I'll bet you have Google do yourself a favor and get educated. Of course you likely already are and are just attempting to spin this post in your direction. Guess what it didn't work. The Kohler Courage single cylinder engine has a proven and documented design flaw, Kohler extended warranties and offered replacement short blocks for a reason......They don't give stuff away without cause and without reason. You can't spin the facts and facts are exactly what I posted. Next.Chris your post has so much misinformation it is a figment of your imagination. Yes there was loose cover bolts issues, Yes there was some early starter issues, and yes they had some counterbalance issues. Most were ;limited to the first series of engines, and after getting the bolt torque corrected didn't see the loose cover bolt issues after that. And to make it right to the customers that had purchased that engines Kohler even extended the engine several years past the normal warranty expiration date for the counterbalance issue to cover the engine failures. Basically if the customer could produce his original purchase receipt they covered it under warranty for a replacement short block.
And just so you know the 5400 series uses the same bucket engine style block that uses counterbalance shafts instead of the sliding weight like Briggs,
#121
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
I do find it a bit amusing how some people can get their feathers ruffled over a 20 hp engine. Of course a company is going to have trouble with a product along the line, it's almost inevitable.
Briggs has/had the cam wiping issues in the intek, Kawasaki had issues with the plastic cam gear grenading. Boo Hoo if you got a bad Courage, It happens.
Briggs has/had the cam wiping issues in the intek, Kawasaki had issues with the plastic cam gear grenading. Boo Hoo if you got a bad Courage, It happens.
#122
logert gogert
logert gogert
you change the oil every month?I check the top cover bolts with a wrench once a month, and that's when I clean the cooling fins, 5 minutes can save tons of headaches. It also gives me something to do
While the oil is draining.
#123
C
ChrisBFRPKY
Using synthetic oil can destroy an engine? What are you smoking? When you say this is an observed fact you fell back in it. No my friend synthetic oil will not destroy your engine. Of course everyone should go by the mfg's recommendations regarding viscosity etc but synthetic oil is superior to conventional motor oil in every way. You'll never sell that one.
Name calling is not a productive discussion.It's a sure sign you've lost an argument. So let's please dispense with the name calling.
Below are a couple of pics of my grenaded block. The one with the yellow oil filter shows the thickness of the block casting. Look at it and tell me there's nothing wrong with that paper thin aluminum block casting. Anyone and that means even an average person can see how thin that is.
You see this is not about who you are, it's not about who I am or my qualifications or even a lack of them for either of us, that makes no difference, this is about the Kohler Courage 20HP single cylinder engines that were flawed. I have one and below are the pics. Enjoy.
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I always love a conspiracy theory being tossed in because some do not take some ones line of arguement hook line & sinker.
So yes there were some problems with the engine but Kohler made the effort to rectify them for a very long time after normal warranty had run out.
I believe it was 4 years in the USA
Add to that it was a random fault .
I have better than 50 Husqvarna mowers in my service run all fitted with Courages .
Now I have a sneaky that these were dumped down into Aus the same way Husqvarna dumped all the pro-Riders that flipped because they were sold here at a big discount.
Of those 50 or so 2 developed the Kohler crack and probably 5 or 6 had loose bolts when they came in for service which as with Nicky 1 said a couple of drops of blue loctite and problem was solved.
Six of them are used commercially and all of those now have between 1000 & 2000 hours on them with no problems other than the hydros getting very tired ( got one in for repair right now ) .
Yet to see one with a tossed counter weight, a system that has been in use on single cylinders for near 100 years , so no Briggs did not invent it so no Kohler did not steal it from them .
I am sorry that you obviously had problems with your Courage but your rantings are some what out of place.
See I am not Joe Average I am Berts Mobile Mower Repairs and started my professional career as a a Foundry Metallurgist so unlike Joe IGNORANT I do know a thing or two about castings.
And there is nothing wrong with the casting it is an excellent design , in fact the entire engine is an excellent design as I do not get burned 20 times a day from hot oil gushing from an oil filter mounted horizontally in an inaccessable place that has to be removed by hand .
The top closure plate means I can fix Joe Not Too Cheap's mower for $ 120 less than the equivalent Briggs because it can stay in the mower for a decompressor change and I certainly can not do that with the 6 ( on average ) 31 series Briggs cams I fit every year ( when Briggs finally decides to supply them ) and 2 to 3 4000 series cams that seem to wear round
A blower housing that comes off with 4 x 6mm bolts all pointing directly upward so you do not have to remove the fuel tank in order to remove the blower housing to CLEAN THE ENGINE EVERY SEASON which if Joe Average actually did, then chances are he would have noticed the loose bolts, that is of course assuming he was not on his 10 Bud while doing it . A painful job to do on any B & S engine requiring a 3/8 spannar , because you can not get a socket or gear wrench onto the rear bolts then either a 3/8 or T40 for the fronts,that is of course if the casting has not broken away and some time an additional 5/16 + phillips if he blower housing is under a bigger blower housing so the SV engine can pretend to look like an OHV engine and of course the 1/4" to remove the fuel pump.
That is not good design , it is minimum fastener price design to make the engine as cheap as humanly possible and a PIA for Joe Average to service.
The Kohler top cover comes of again with easy to access bolts all the same size & T 27 to slip the throttle control off .
Having had a very close examination of the entire casting, before welding the cracks and being, an experienced non-ferrous foundry person I would guess and it is just a guess that the engine was originally designed to use the same forged crankshaft as is fitted to the command .
This would be sound engineering practice as a forged crankshaft is around1/3 the cost of the entire engine so using the same one would have brought in big economies of scale.
However some one decided to fit a cheaper malleable cast iron crankshaft which has to be substantially thicker than the equivalent strength forged one but only 1/2 the price.
This would have thrown the vibration dynamics for the engine way out , thus the loosening front bolts and of course gobbled up a lot of the potential power from the engine .
The Courage engines are still being made in Kohlers Chinese factory and we get lots of cheap chinese Husqvarna knock offs fitted with 21 Hp courage singles that run like a dream.
I have about a dozen of them in the service run and they are actually a cut above the USA made ones.
Don't know if the crank is cast or forged because I am yet to pull a top cover off any of them , but the engine does run smoother and seems to respond to the governor much faster.
And by the way using synthetic oil in an engine not designed to run synthetic oil can destroy the engine in no time flat particularly if it is a lighter grade because the synthetics flow smoother so they don't hold critical oil pressure when uses in engines that have pressure fed cranks designed to run on the heavier mono grade or standard multi grades oils . Synthetics also splash quite differently so can be a problem getting to little ends on vertical shaft engines and they tend to drain faster from the top bearing oil dam on full splash engine making them more prone to siezing when being driven on slopes.
And this is an OBSERVED FACT coming from diagnosing destroyed engine running on full synthetic oil, cause Joe Average thinks he knows more about oil than the engineers who designed the engine .
And NO I AM NOT A KOHLER STOOGE, I am a certified kohler technicain ( via the on line course only ) but do not have any affiliation with Kohler as they demanded I keep a $ 30,000 Kohler inventory in order to open an account which I have no intention of doing.
Which is anything makes me alitle pisse at Kohler for making me wste several hour of my time siting their on line exam .
And I definately am not a paid "Reputation Defender" I am a plain speaking Aussie
And to me you just seem like a person which a very bad case of Schit on the Liver desperate to vent their spleen at every oppertunity.
And if you were really mowing in open toed shoes then an idiot to boot .
Exactly how boiling hot oil would manage to escape from the crankcase magically bypass the dash turret then deep fry you feet is again beyond my imagination as if the counterweight let go it would be near impossible for it to go through the side of the engine unless some one had been tampering with the governor & had the engine reving way over the 5000 rpm safe limit.
Using synthetic oil can destroy an engine? What are you smoking? When you say this is an observed fact you fell back in it. No my friend synthetic oil will not destroy your engine. Of course everyone should go by the mfg's recommendations regarding viscosity etc but synthetic oil is superior to conventional motor oil in every way. You'll never sell that one.
Name calling is not a productive discussion.It's a sure sign you've lost an argument. So let's please dispense with the name calling.
Below are a couple of pics of my grenaded block. The one with the yellow oil filter shows the thickness of the block casting. Look at it and tell me there's nothing wrong with that paper thin aluminum block casting. Anyone and that means even an average person can see how thin that is.
You see this is not about who you are, it's not about who I am or my qualifications or even a lack of them for either of us, that makes no difference, this is about the Kohler Courage 20HP single cylinder engines that were flawed. I have one and below are the pics. Enjoy.
#124
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
I personally had 7 Kawasaki twins come in the shop this summer with the number 1 rod broke. How many other people have broken number 1 rods on Kawasaki twins this year and the previous years.I do find it a bit amusing how some people can get their feathers ruffled over a 20 hp engine. Of course a company is going to have trouble with a product along the line, it's almost inevitable.
Briggs has/had the cam wiping issues in the intek, Kawasaki had issues with the plastic cam gear grenading. Boo Hoo if you got a bad Courage, It happens.
#125
C
ChrisBFRPKY
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I think you've missed the point. The flaw is dangerous. I wouldn't care if it had stripped the plastic cam gears, Older Kawasaki engines do that all the time. I wouldn't care if it started using oil and smoking shortly after the warranty expired. Anything to do with normal wear and tear would have been acceptable and repairable. Kohler should have recalled all those engines but instead they left them in service knowing full well the counter balance system was flawed and the blocks were thin. This one had 272 hours of easy well maintained use.I do find it a bit amusing how some people can get their feathers ruffled over a 20 hp engine. Of course a company is going to have trouble with a product along the line, it's almost inevitable.
Briggs has/had the cam wiping issues in the intek, Kawasaki had issues with the plastic cam gear grenading. Boo Hoo if you got a bad Courage, It happens.
#126
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
I am just a Kohler dealer and don't have any more skin in the game than Bert does. And your well documented failure was a few hundred engines out of a production runs of several million. so the percentage of failure even with the problems was not that wide spread. And if it was such a failed engine design why are they still using it. Now with a dual conterbalance gear system and a single cam The basic bucket style engine is still there.Earning that Kohler pay are we? Well in fact everything I said above is well documented. The Kohler company even extended engine warranty to 5 years from 2 and they also had a special program for customers who had engines that grenaded in such a matter to send them a brand new short block. So facts are facts and slinging mud is a dirty business. But by all means don't take my word on it, verify......you have the internet I'll bet you have Google do yourself a favor and get educated. Of course you likely already are and are just attempting to spin this post in your direction. Guess what it didn't work. The Kohler Courage single cylinder engine has a proven and documented design flaw, Kohler extended warranties and offered replacement short blocks for a reason......They don't give stuff away without cause and without reason. You can't spin the facts and facts are exactly what I posted. Next.
#127
Scrubcadet10
oil gets changed start of the season. Usually change it in the middle of the season if it's a hot, dusty year.
Scrubcadet10
No, i just pull the blower housing off once a month to clean and check bolts etc.you change the oil every month?
oil gets changed start of the season. Usually change it in the middle of the season if it's a hot, dusty year.
#128
StarTech
StarTech
To me it is a mechanical engine quite varying parts tolerances. Many engines are fine and then sometimes all out of torenance comes together in one engine. Plus operators dont pay attention to a developing problem. I just recently repaired a Briggs 310000 series engine that had been sitting unused and the owner brought it in running so no being ran without oil. Well I replaced the failed camshaft. Customer picks it back up and goes around yard a few times when the engine quits. I go out to pickup the mower and find the engine crankcase badly shattered where the counter balance links broke and went the crankcase. Absolutely nothing could be done for the engine except to replace it at cost.
I got another that just running his badly smoking engine until it too failed a horrible death.
Please when an engine giving problem don't keep running until it explodes; have it checked out.
I got another that just running his badly smoking engine until it too failed a horrible death.
Please when an engine giving problem don't keep running until it explodes; have it checked out.
#129
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
Chris, Have you heard of the courage problem before hand?
in regards to a "paper thin" block, that''s about the same size thickness i've seen for around 20 HP engines, Kohler or not.
I'm not sure how this engine is 'dangerous' as any engine can punch through the block when it throws a rod, and any engine can throw a rod, whether it be low oil, no oil, or old age/wear. You've got a chunk of forged steel and aluminum rotating at 3200,3600 RPM, of course crap's gonna break when something lets go...
in regards to a "paper thin" block, that''s about the same size thickness i've seen for around 20 HP engines, Kohler or not.
I'm not sure how this engine is 'dangerous' as any engine can punch through the block when it throws a rod, and any engine can throw a rod, whether it be low oil, no oil, or old age/wear. You've got a chunk of forged steel and aluminum rotating at 3200,3600 RPM, of course crap's gonna break when something lets go...
#130
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Chris, I’m glad to see that you believe the adage “If it’s on the Internet, it must be true”. You can believe what you want and you can post your beliefs, but IL, Bert, Scrub and I have been working in this industry far longer than you and we don’t use the Internet to get our facts. We base our opinions on actual dirt under the fingernails experience. Each person using this forum will make their own decisions based on who they think is more credible. My questions to you is “What is you background which makes you the expert on Courage engines? How many Courage engines have your worked on? Is your opinion based on factional or fictional experience?” Maybe it’s you who is the PAID REPUTATION DEFENDER for one of the clone engine manufacturers? I’ll be waiting to see how you defend your rant, but if you can’t we’ll know who’s buttering your bread.
#131
C
ChrisBFRPKY
If a small percentage of a certain model of car exploded when their occupants drove them and the mfg knew this was likely to happen yet did nothing but offer an extended replacement warranty . Would you want to drive around in one of those cars? I wouldn't.
C
ChrisBFRPKY
According to their website my engine has been discontinued. At least that's what it says. I'm sure they have newer/better designs now but I'll never try one as the last one was an epic fail. They may have worked out something with their own balance design that actually works now. After all it's been several years since the court found in favor of Briggs. (https://casetext.com/case/briggs-stratton-corp-v-kohler-co-11/?PHONE_NUMBER_GROUP=P&NEW_CASE_PAGE=N) But their early attempts at a balance system were an obvious fail (pictured in post above) and dangerous, they still are if any are still in service. Hopefully mine was the last to fail.I am just a Kohler dealer and don't have any more skin in the game than Bert does. And your well documented failure was a few hundred engines out of a production runs of several million. so the percentage of failure even with the problems was not that wide spread. And if it was such a failed engine design why are they still using it. Now with a dual conterbalance gear system and a single cam The basic bucket style engine is still there.
If a small percentage of a certain model of car exploded when their occupants drove them and the mfg knew this was likely to happen yet did nothing but offer an extended replacement warranty . Would you want to drive around in one of those cars? I wouldn't.
#132
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
That could kill you, I HIGHLY doubt a 19 hp kohler courage could kill you when the block cracks.If a small percentage of a certain model of car exploded when their occupants drove them and the mfg knew this was likely to happen yet did nothing but offer an extended replacement warranty . Would you want to drive around in one of those cars? I wouldn't.
#133
C
ChrisBFRPKY
C
ChrisBFRPKY
Are you saying there was not a problem with those engines? Are you saying Kohler did not extend the engine warranty on those engines to 5 years? Are you saying there never was a lawsuit Briggs VS Kohler over a stolen counterbalance system? Are you saying Kohler did not have design problems with their early version of a balance system? Please let me know which of these you dispute and we'll go from there. Like I said it's about the facts. Who you are or who I am has nothing to do with the price of clones in China.Chris, I’m glad to see that you believe the adage “If it’s on the Internet, it must be true”. You can believe what you want and you can post your beliefs, but IL, Bert, Scrub and I have been working in this industry far longer than you and we don’t use the Internet to get our facts. We base our opinions on actual dirt under the fingernails experience. Each person using this forum will make their own decisions based on who they think is more credible. My questions to you is “What is you background which makes you the expert on Courage engines? How many Courage engines have your worked on? Is your opinion based on factional or fictional experience?” Maybe it’s you who is the PAID REPUTATION DEFENDER for one of the clone engine manufacturers? I’ll be waiting to see how you defend your rant, but if you can’t we’ll know who’s buttering your bread.
#134
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
Chris, did you ever hear of the courage problem before this incident?
#135
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
When you answer my questions with factional experience, I’ll answer your questions. According to your rants the only good engines produced were Maytag and Briggs models A through F, because all others had problems which needed to be covered under a manufacturers warranty.
#136
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I realize any aluminum engine block can be damaged but even the smaller Briggs engines have much thicker blocks than the disgraced 20hp bucket engine that I still have in the garage. I realized it wasn't just me when I looked on craigslist to see what these cubs were going for, and to my surprise there were and ARE tons of cub cadets in about every city you search with blown Kohler Courage engines. The used ones you see still running all have the twin cyl briggs engines. I mean you can check it out in your area to see where I'm coming from. Of course that means someone can get a deal as they are fine yard scalpers with a good engine in place. I like the newer cub stuff to mow with and the old cub stuff to pull with. I have no ill will toward anyone here at all. I just wanted to make it clear that at least the older Kohler Courage single cylinder engines are dangerous and flawed. It shouldn't be a problem as their website lists them out of production now but there still may be some of the older grenades floating around out there so it's buyer beware.
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I hadn't heard of anything wrong with them at the time I purchased this one. I did suspect early on that there was something wrong when my buddy's engine blew out the back. His failed before mine. I think he had like 15 to 20 hours on it. We discussed the failure and I couldn't understand what the deal was. We'd both been building Kohlers and Briggs engines for years for Garden tractor pullers and go karters. But I don't wanna talk much about that as it doesn't matter. Kohler was always the best engine for pulling and you couldn't kill one, well not easily anyway. Only thing came to mind was it must have been a production fluke. A Monday morning assembly job or the like. He got a new engine on the cub and it seemed to work well for the next few years then the oil leaks started (loose cover bolts) Again he thought it was likely a case of someone forgot to torque the bolts, simple worker error. After the repair a year or two went by without issue and blam another counterbalance came thru the 2nd engine. He put the cub on craigslist and bought a 20/54 Poulan pro with a twin cylinder Briggs. And so far, has mowed happily ever after.Chris, Have you heard of the courage problem before hand?
in regards to a "paper thin" block, that''s about the same size thickness i've seen for around 20 HP engines, Kohler or not.
I'm not sure how this engine is 'dangerous' as any engine can punch through the block when it throws a rod, and any engine can throw a rod, whether it be low oil, no oil, or old age/wear. You've got a chunk of forged steel and aluminum rotating at 3200,3600 RPM, of course crap's gonna break when something lets go...
I realize any aluminum engine block can be damaged but even the smaller Briggs engines have much thicker blocks than the disgraced 20hp bucket engine that I still have in the garage. I realized it wasn't just me when I looked on craigslist to see what these cubs were going for, and to my surprise there were and ARE tons of cub cadets in about every city you search with blown Kohler Courage engines. The used ones you see still running all have the twin cyl briggs engines. I mean you can check it out in your area to see where I'm coming from. Of course that means someone can get a deal as they are fine yard scalpers with a good engine in place. I like the newer cub stuff to mow with and the old cub stuff to pull with. I have no ill will toward anyone here at all. I just wanted to make it clear that at least the older Kohler Courage single cylinder engines are dangerous and flawed. It shouldn't be a problem as their website lists them out of production now but there still may be some of the older grenades floating around out there so it's buyer beware.
#137
C
ChrisBFRPKY
C
ChrisBFRPKY
What questions? You want to know who I am and what qualifies me to have an opinion? Well my first name is Chris as per my username and that's all I'll give away. I'm qualified to have an opinion because I've actually owned one of these engines and had the exploding Courage experience. Have you?When you answer my questions with factional experience, I’ll answer your questions. According to your rants the only good engines produced were Maytag and Briggs models A through F, because all others had problems which needed to be covered under a manufacturers warranty.
#138
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
my name's Travis I'm also qualified to give an opinion as i also have a kohler courage 19, I've had the great running kohler courage experience 280 odd hours and fires up with the touch of the key, my valve cover does not leak, my starter has not gone bad (original) my camshaft hasn't gone out, my balancer hasn't kapooted, my top cover bolts haven't loosened up nor has the block cracked due to the bolts coming loose, and from the 1 kohler Courage i've opened up, the block seems to be as thick as an Briggs Opposed twin i opened up just a few months ago. i know one other guy on here who has 800 hours on his. only problem i have had was the carb needle failing, (walbro's issue not kohler's).
#139
StarTech
StarTech
Apparently you haven't seen the Briggs 09P series. Their crankcase are very thin too. I got a few in the recycle bin due to holes in the sides.
As for the Kohler Courage it appears to be replaced by another bucket engine design, The 5400 series.
As for the Kohler Courage it appears to be replaced by another bucket engine design, The 5400 series.
#140
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
?
#141
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
Sir, would you like to supersize that?
#142
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I guess we agree on one thing, you are qualified to have your opinion. That opinion is based on two Courage engines and what you read on the internet. My limited qualifications are working on small engines for over 50 years and working in the industry for over 40 years. At one time I held manufacturer certifications from Briggs, Tecumseh, Kohler, Wisconsin and Onan. Taught small engine repair at both the high school and tech school level for 25+ years. While teaching and in retirement I’ve worked for dealerships to keep up with the changes in the industry. Have I worked on Courage engines, YES. Have I seen Courage engine failures, YES. Have I worked with Kohler and customers to resolve problems, YES. Does this make me, with my limited experience, qualified to disagree with your opinion and agree with those of other service technicians on this form. MAYBE, depending on who you listen to. Sorry, I could have just said my user namer is Rivets and that makes me qualified to list my opinions, but that would have made me look incompetent in giving my opinion. Now that you’ve seen this on the Internet it must be true. Pass the popcorn, with a cold one. Haven’t had this much fun since trying to measure internal battery resistance.
#143
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Oh yeah. And a six pack.Sir, would you like to supersize that?
#144
C
ChrisBFRPKY
There is no shame in having issues with a new design. All of the engine makers mess up from time to time. Heck I'll bet the guy who created the first Briggs Intek head gasket design still has bad dreams about it. My gripe is merely that if they knew what batch had the earlier design that failed they could have recalled them, installed a new balance system and Robert's your uncle. But it wasn't limited to just the balance system....and there's the real reason they left them in service to fail.
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I think it depends on which batch you get. Kohler had issues during the R&D of their early balance system. This issue was definitely seen in the 2010 and some 2011 Courage engines as per Kohler. There was an investigation and it was determined there were different reasons for the failures. Some blocks being cast too thin to support the harmonics caused by the balance weights was one issue as in my engine's situation. Low oil of course could cause the balance weights to fail but that's a end user issue and no fault of the engine. After all, even if the engine had loose cover bolts and leaked oil the end user should still be checking that oil level before starting. The engine design still continues, according to their website the "Courage" has been discontinued yet in truth it's only the name "Courage" they retired due to the bad rep the engines have.my name's Travis I'm also qualified to give an opinion as i also have a kohler courage 19, I've had the great running kohler courage experience 280 odd hours and fires up with the touch of the key, my valve cover does not leak, my starter has not gone bad (original) my camshaft hasn't gone out, my balancer hasn't kapooted, my top cover bolts haven't loosened up nor has the block cracked due to the bolts coming loose, and from the 1 kohler Courage i've opened up, the block seems to be as thick as an Briggs Opposed twin i opened up just a few months ago. i know one other guy on here who has 800 hours on his. only problem i have had was the carb needle failing, (walbro's issue not kohler's).
There is no shame in having issues with a new design. All of the engine makers mess up from time to time. Heck I'll bet the guy who created the first Briggs Intek head gasket design still has bad dreams about it. My gripe is merely that if they knew what batch had the earlier design that failed they could have recalled them, installed a new balance system and Robert's your uncle. But it wasn't limited to just the balance system....and there's the real reason they left them in service to fail.
#145
C
ChrisBFRPKY
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I don't understand something. Are you disputing my claim that there was an issue with the previous design of the Courage engine balance system and block? Do you dispute my claim that cub cadets are available in every US city on craigslist with blown Courage engines? It's really great you have all the experience you volunteered and that leads to an important question. In your professional opinion was there a problem with the Kohler Courage engines mfg'd in 2010 and 2011? If you think there were no problems with the design, by all means just say so. It's just a conversation not a court case.I guess we agree on one thing, you are qualified to have your opinion. That opinion is based on two Courage engines and what you read on the internet. My limited qualifications are working on small engines for over 50 years and working in the industry for over 40 years. At one time I held manufacturer certifications from Briggs, Tecumseh, Kohler, Wisconsin and Onan. Taught small engine repair at both the high school and tech school level for 25+ years. While teaching and in retirement I’ve worked for dealerships to keep up with the changes in the industry. Have I worked on Courage engines, YES. Have I seen Courage engine failures, YES. Have I worked with Kohler and customers to resolve problems, YES. Does this make me, with my limited experience, qualified to disagree with your opinion and agree with those of other service technicians on this form. MAYBE, depending on who you listen to. Sorry, I could have just said my user namer is Rivets and that makes me qualified to list my opinions, but that would have made me look incompetent in giving my opinion. Now that you’ve seen this on the Internet it must be true. Pass the popcorn, with a cold one. Haven’t had this much fun since trying to measure internal battery resistance.
#146
C
ChrisBFRPKY
It's the same engine, they just changed the name.
C
ChrisBFRPKY
The Briggs likely didn't fail for the same reason the Kohler did. The Kohler Courage had some thin castings that failed because they could not stand the harmonics of the balancer. I know they've all made some errors and nobody is exempt.Apparently you haven't seen the Briggs 09P series. Their crankcase are very thin too. I got a few in the recycle bin due to holes in the sides.
As for the Kohler Courage it appears to be replaced by another bucket engine design, The 5400 series.
It's the same engine, they just changed the name.
#147
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Mr. Trump, Oh sorry Chris, I asked you three questions and instead of answering them you keep reverting to your opinions and not scientific evidence or facts. I answered your question on how I get my qualified opinion, would you please factually answer the questions I posed to you, if you can. It might help to reread the posts by other service techs to your first rant and you will find what I think of the Courage engine, by those I like.
#149
S
slomo
S
slomo
What do you guys think about Slick 50? Best oil on the market. Extra 40hp with zero friction. Now my engines won't shut off they are so slick. Don't even have to gas them up.
slomo
slomo
#150
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
My Cub Cadet is 2010 year model,I think it depends on which batch you get. Kohler had issues during the R&D of their early balance system. This issue was definitely seen in the 2010 and some 2011 Courage engines as per Kohler. There was an investigation and it was determined there were different reasons for the failures. Some blocks being cast too thin to support the harmonics caused by the balance weights was one issue as in my engine's situation. Low oil of course could cause the balance weights to fail but that's a end user issue and no fault of the engine. After all, even if the engine had loose cover bolts and leaked oil the end user should still be checking that oil level before starting. The engine design still continues, according to their website the "Courage" has been discontinued yet in truth it's only the name "Courage" they retired due to the bad rep the engines have.
There is no shame in having issues with a new design. All of the engine makers mess up from time to time. Heck I'll bet the guy who created the first Briggs Intek head gasket design still has bad dreams about it. My gripe is merely that if they knew what batch had the earlier design that failed they could have recalled them, installed a new balance system and Robert's your uncle. But it wasn't limited to just the balance system....and there's the real reason they left them in service to fail.
#151
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
What do you guys think about Slick 50? Best oil on the market. Extra 40hp with zero friction. Now my engines won't shut off they are so slick. Don't even have to gas them up.
slomo
#152
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Not quite as good as the "what's the best 2 stroke oil" thread on the OPE forum.
???
???
#153
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
I think we should get Taryl to make some Taryl apparel that says: Do you have the courage to run a courage engine??
#154
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
I have the courage
All it takes a little responsibility on the owners end. Check them bolts, or remove them and loctite them.
All it takes a little responsibility on the owners end. Check them bolts, or remove them and loctite them.
#155
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Com’on now, who’s trying to change the subject? At my age I’ve got a hard time staying on topic. Don’t try to confuse me.
#156
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Not a fan boy of any brand. I see my share of courage engines. Haven't seen backed out bolts in years. What i have seen is leaking valve cover gaskets and blown head gaskets and the usual kohler carb and ignition problems.
#157
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
I don't know, but i think we were talking about a space shuttle going to the moon...Com’on now, who’s trying to change the subject? At my age I’ve got a hard time staying on topic. Don’t try to confuse me.
#158
B
bertsmobile1
No body has said there were no problems with the courage singe which became apparent after a considerable amount of time.
If Kohler were the devil you like to paint them they would have said "Stiff Cheese, out of warranty go suck eggs " but no they investigated the problem then made good on just about every engine that failed .
Every mower that has come in with loose bolts was well out of warranty and most would have been lucky to have had the oil changed at all since new .
In my customers case I could have sent the engines in to an authorised Kohler dealer along with my detailed warranty claim form and they would have eventually supplied the dealer with a new short block.
However the dealer confirmed that the whole shooting match would take around 3 months if Kohler actually had any short blocks in stock and up to 2 more if they were waiting on supply from the USA.
The customer then had the choice $ 300 and back on Friday or $ 65 and back at the end of the season ( price of service parts )
If you go to the government recall notice site you will see the ONLY time there is a full product recall is when using the mower is likely to cause serious injury or death and most of these are for fire risk .
Kohler did issue a service alert and your dealer should have contacted you if you are a home service type of person and if you took the mower in for a service then the loctite would have been applied.
The local Husqvarna shop sent out a service alert to all of their customers who had registered their mowers or left contact details so the dealler could follow up .
However the bulk of the customers do not ever register their product and it is blindingly obvious you did not do it either and got caught out .
If you had bought your service parts from the mower shop then you should have been alerted but I will hazard another guess that Joe Broke buys all his parts of Amazon .
AFAIK , Kohler handled the whole shooting match with a very high level of honesty & integrity .
When the Courage went into production Kohler installed a brand new casting machine with a smaller mold carousel imported from Germany. From memory it was a 19 or 23 mold unit.
It was big news in the Americam Foundrymens Journal, Casting Today & Foundry Planet , all of which I subscribe to .
Again I am hazarding a guess here , but it is one that is based on foundry problem solving , that one of the molds had a problem so you end up with 1 in 20 finished engines with a potential problem and this is around the number I see in practice . This could of course just be a coincidence .
As for courts finding patient infringements, I am yet to find a judge who did a Law-Engineering double degree .
Tribunals formed from suitably qualified professionals make sound decisions based on engineering.
Courts make rulings based of the quality of the arguement and that is more to do with the presentation than the facts
Counter weights running on eccentric cams have been around since the recriprocating steam engine so there is nothing new about the idea or application of the idea that has not been done 1000 times before .
Convincing a judge is not a big deal. convnincing a pannel of suitably qualified engineers is another things all together.
Considering that the engines are the same capacities , pistons are similar weights and running speeds are the same it should be no surprise to an intellegent person that the two counterweight balance system end up being very similar.
As for synthetics being superiour they are not .
They are DIFFERENT and different is not superiour .
120 octane race fuel is superiour to the pump gas you put in your mower , but do that and it will auto destruct in a very short time.
Oil flow is a very complicated thing and oil pressure is proportional to the cross sectional area of the flow surfaces and the resistance of the oil to passing through it.
The resistance to flow is also controlled by the turbulance created by the surface roughness , so journals designed for synthetic oils are ground smoother and to a closer tollerance .
Synthetics flow at a much lower pressure than standard oils because the size & shape of the oil molecules is far more more consistant and in most cases smaller .
Thus when pushed through a slipper type of bearing designed for standard oil most synthetics flow faster at a reduced oil pressure which is exactly what they were designed to do .
However the oil passage on a mower engine designed for standard oils is too big so the pressure drops and the oil film breaks down .
If the mower engine was run all day long every day then it becomes apparent very quickly. but most only run a few hours a week for around 1/2 the year so this takes a long time to rear it's ugly head .
There is nothing wrong with using a synthetic oil, in an engine that is designed for synthetic oil .
Putting it in an engine designed for standard oil is a waste of money at best and detrimental to the engine at worst.
When synthetics hit the market the advertisers had to convince Joe Ignorant that there was value in filling their sump with some thing that was 10 times more expensive so they devised all sorts of stunts in order to sell the product.
Most of these bore no resmenellance to actual service conditions
Down here we got a whole swathe of laboratory test videos of 3 ball & cup testers showing just how much more pressure the synthetics took before they failed.
However these are LAB tests designed to do nothing more than assure quality and to compare changes to a blend or process.
Find some where in your engine where you force 3 ball bearings into a rotating plate till it jambs .
B
bertsmobile1
Are you saying there was not a problem with those engines? Are you saying Kohler did not extend the engine warranty on those engines to 5 years? Are you saying there never was a lawsuit Briggs VS Kohler over a stolen counterbalance system? Are you saying Kohler did not have design problems with their early version of a balance system? Please let me know which of these you dispute and we'll go from there. Like I said it's about the facts. Who you are or who I am has nothing to do with the price of clones in China.
No body has said there were no problems with the courage singe which became apparent after a considerable amount of time.
If Kohler were the devil you like to paint them they would have said "Stiff Cheese, out of warranty go suck eggs " but no they investigated the problem then made good on just about every engine that failed .
Every mower that has come in with loose bolts was well out of warranty and most would have been lucky to have had the oil changed at all since new .
In my customers case I could have sent the engines in to an authorised Kohler dealer along with my detailed warranty claim form and they would have eventually supplied the dealer with a new short block.
However the dealer confirmed that the whole shooting match would take around 3 months if Kohler actually had any short blocks in stock and up to 2 more if they were waiting on supply from the USA.
The customer then had the choice $ 300 and back on Friday or $ 65 and back at the end of the season ( price of service parts )
If you go to the government recall notice site you will see the ONLY time there is a full product recall is when using the mower is likely to cause serious injury or death and most of these are for fire risk .
Kohler did issue a service alert and your dealer should have contacted you if you are a home service type of person and if you took the mower in for a service then the loctite would have been applied.
The local Husqvarna shop sent out a service alert to all of their customers who had registered their mowers or left contact details so the dealler could follow up .
However the bulk of the customers do not ever register their product and it is blindingly obvious you did not do it either and got caught out .
If you had bought your service parts from the mower shop then you should have been alerted but I will hazard another guess that Joe Broke buys all his parts of Amazon .
AFAIK , Kohler handled the whole shooting match with a very high level of honesty & integrity .
When the Courage went into production Kohler installed a brand new casting machine with a smaller mold carousel imported from Germany. From memory it was a 19 or 23 mold unit.
It was big news in the Americam Foundrymens Journal, Casting Today & Foundry Planet , all of which I subscribe to .
Again I am hazarding a guess here , but it is one that is based on foundry problem solving , that one of the molds had a problem so you end up with 1 in 20 finished engines with a potential problem and this is around the number I see in practice . This could of course just be a coincidence .
As for courts finding patient infringements, I am yet to find a judge who did a Law-Engineering double degree .
Tribunals formed from suitably qualified professionals make sound decisions based on engineering.
Courts make rulings based of the quality of the arguement and that is more to do with the presentation than the facts
Counter weights running on eccentric cams have been around since the recriprocating steam engine so there is nothing new about the idea or application of the idea that has not been done 1000 times before .
Convincing a judge is not a big deal. convnincing a pannel of suitably qualified engineers is another things all together.
Considering that the engines are the same capacities , pistons are similar weights and running speeds are the same it should be no surprise to an intellegent person that the two counterweight balance system end up being very similar.
As for synthetics being superiour they are not .
They are DIFFERENT and different is not superiour .
120 octane race fuel is superiour to the pump gas you put in your mower , but do that and it will auto destruct in a very short time.
Oil flow is a very complicated thing and oil pressure is proportional to the cross sectional area of the flow surfaces and the resistance of the oil to passing through it.
The resistance to flow is also controlled by the turbulance created by the surface roughness , so journals designed for synthetic oils are ground smoother and to a closer tollerance .
Synthetics flow at a much lower pressure than standard oils because the size & shape of the oil molecules is far more more consistant and in most cases smaller .
Thus when pushed through a slipper type of bearing designed for standard oil most synthetics flow faster at a reduced oil pressure which is exactly what they were designed to do .
However the oil passage on a mower engine designed for standard oils is too big so the pressure drops and the oil film breaks down .
If the mower engine was run all day long every day then it becomes apparent very quickly. but most only run a few hours a week for around 1/2 the year so this takes a long time to rear it's ugly head .
There is nothing wrong with using a synthetic oil, in an engine that is designed for synthetic oil .
Putting it in an engine designed for standard oil is a waste of money at best and detrimental to the engine at worst.
When synthetics hit the market the advertisers had to convince Joe Ignorant that there was value in filling their sump with some thing that was 10 times more expensive so they devised all sorts of stunts in order to sell the product.
Most of these bore no resmenellance to actual service conditions
Down here we got a whole swathe of laboratory test videos of 3 ball & cup testers showing just how much more pressure the synthetics took before they failed.
However these are LAB tests designed to do nothing more than assure quality and to compare changes to a blend or process.
Find some where in your engine where you force 3 ball bearings into a rotating plate till it jambs .
#159
logert gogert
logert gogert
why.....do you.....always have to type so much..... ?No body has said there were no problems with the courage singe which became apparent after a considerable amount of time.
If Kohler were the devil you like to paint them they would have said "Stiff Cheese, out of warranty go suck eggs " but no they investigated the problem then made good on just about every engine that failed .
Every mower that has come in with loose bolts was well out of warranty and most would have been lucky to have had the oil changed at all since new .
In my customers case I could have sent the engines in to an authorised Kohler dealer along with my detailed warranty claim form and they would have eventually supplied the dealer with a new short block.
However the dealer confirmed that the whole shooting match would take around 3 months if Kohler actually had any short blocks in stock and up to 2 more if they were waiting on supply from the USA.
The customer then had the choice $ 300 and back on Friday or $ 65 and back at the end of the season ( price of service parts )
If you go to the government recall notice site you will see the ONLY time there is a full product recall is when using the mower is likely to cause serious injury or death and most of these are for fire risk .
Kohler did issue a service alert and your dealer should have contacted you if you are a home service type of person and if you took the mower in for a service then the loctite would have been applied.
The local Husqvarna shop sent out a service alert to all of their customers who had registered their mowers or left contact details so the dealler could follow up .
However the bulk of the customers do not ever register their product and it is blindingly obvious you did not do it either and got caught out .
If you had bought your service parts from the mower shop then you should have been alerted but I will hazard another guess that Joe Broke buys all his parts of Amazon .
AFAIK , Kohler handled the whole shooting match with a very high level of honesty & integrity .
When the Courage went into production Kohler installed a brand new casting machine with a smaller mold carousel imported from Germany. From memory it was a 19 or 23 mold unit.
It was big news in the Americam Foundrymens Journal, Casting Today & Foundry Planet , all of which I subscribe to .
Again I am hazarding a guess here , but it is one that is based on foundry problem solving , that one of the molds had a problem so you end up with 1 in 20 finished engines with a potential problem and this is around the number I see in practice . This could of course just be a coincidence .
As for courts finding patient infringements, I am yet to find a judge who did a Law-Engineering double degree .
Tribunals formed from suitably qualified professionals make sound decisions based on engineering.
Courts make rulings based of the quality of the arguement and that is more to do with the presentation than the facts
Counter weights running on eccentric cams have been around since the recriprocating steam engine so there is nothing new about the idea or application of the idea that has not been done 1000 times before .
Convincing a judge is not a big deal. convnincing a pannel of suitably qualified engineers is another things all together.
Considering that the engines are the same capacities , pistons are similar weights and running speeds are the same it should be no surprise to an intellegent person that the two counterweight balance system end up being very similar.
As for synthetics being superiour they are not .
They are DIFFERENT and different is not superiour .
120 octane race fuel is superiour to the pump gas you put in your mower , but do that and it will auto destruct in a very short time.
Oil flow is a very complicated thing and oil pressure is proportional to the cross sectional area of the flow surfaces and the resistance of the oil to passing through it.
The resistance to flow is also controlled by the turbulance created by the surface roughness , so journals designed for synthetic oils are ground smoother and to a closer tollerance .
Synthetics flow at a much lower pressure than standard oils because the size & shape of the oil molecules is far more more consistant and in most cases smaller .
Thus when pushed through a slipper type of bearing designed for standard oil most synthetics flow faster at a reduced oil pressure which is exactly what they were designed to do .
However the oil passage on a mower engine designed for standard oils is too big so the pressure drops and the oil film breaks down .
If the mower engine was run all day long every day then it becomes apparent very quickly. but most only run a few hours a week for around 1/2 the year so this takes a long time to rear it's ugly head .
There is nothing wrong with using a synthetic oil, in an engine that is designed for synthetic oil .
Putting it in an engine designed for standard oil is a waste of money at best and detrimental to the engine at worst.
When synthetics hit the market the advertisers had to convince Joe Ignorant that there was value in filling their sump with some thing that was 10 times more expensive so they devised all sorts of stunts in order to sell the product.
Most of these bore no resmenellance to actual service conditions
Down here we got a whole swathe of laboratory test videos of 3 ball & cup testers showing just how much more pressure the synthetics took before they failed.
However these are LAB tests designed to do nothing more than assure quality and to compare changes to a blend or process.
Find some where in your engine where you force 3 ball bearings into a rotating plate till it jambs .
#160
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
And just a side note
No Cubs down here fitted with defective Kohlers that I have ever heard of , just Husqvarna's and in that case the mowers came with either a Kohler ( YTH 4219K ) or a Briggs .
And I too have a Kohler powered mower.
It came from a customer who bought it from a cricket club and when he picked it up it was bone dry & had never been serviced .
There was excessive wear in the engine & both spindle housing wre broken but it cleaned up ok , got a new ACR fitted & he mowed commercially with it for 3 years till he upgraded to a Greenfields with a smaller deck .
I got it as payment for servicing it and currently it is a loaner kept for older customers who don't have the leg strength to work the manual drive on the Cox or Greenfields that I usually loan out.
So yes I have skin in the courage game as well .
As a service tech, I could list common faults with just about every engine that comes through the workshop .
The most warranty claims I have put through are against Kawasaki for rocker housing failures where the support has come loose and taken the locating pip with it.
The last one I serviced I noticed the pip is now longer .
What you fail to appreciate is a vertical shaft engine is the absolute rock bottom engine.
They are all built down to a price which is why manufactureres like Hond who value their name & reputation highly have stopped making them .
This is primarily because the buying public is too stupid to appreciate quality engineering and too cheap to pay for it .
If all the market will pay for is trash then that is what the factories will make .
No Cubs down here fitted with defective Kohlers that I have ever heard of , just Husqvarna's and in that case the mowers came with either a Kohler ( YTH 4219K ) or a Briggs .
And I too have a Kohler powered mower.
It came from a customer who bought it from a cricket club and when he picked it up it was bone dry & had never been serviced .
There was excessive wear in the engine & both spindle housing wre broken but it cleaned up ok , got a new ACR fitted & he mowed commercially with it for 3 years till he upgraded to a Greenfields with a smaller deck .
I got it as payment for servicing it and currently it is a loaner kept for older customers who don't have the leg strength to work the manual drive on the Cox or Greenfields that I usually loan out.
So yes I have skin in the courage game as well .
As a service tech, I could list common faults with just about every engine that comes through the workshop .
The most warranty claims I have put through are against Kawasaki for rocker housing failures where the support has come loose and taken the locating pip with it.
The last one I serviced I noticed the pip is now longer .
What you fail to appreciate is a vertical shaft engine is the absolute rock bottom engine.
They are all built down to a price which is why manufactureres like Hond who value their name & reputation highly have stopped making them .
This is primarily because the buying public is too stupid to appreciate quality engineering and too cheap to pay for it .
If all the market will pay for is trash then that is what the factories will make .
#161
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
Bert's a smart man, and i do not mean that sarcasticallywhy.....do you.....always have to type so much..... ?
#162
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Logert.
On the web all people should be equal and anything posted should be considered opinion .
That being the case when one needs to make a point one has to explain how they arrived at the point.
This then allows skepitcs & dissenters the oppertunity to check what has been printed and come to their own conclusions .
I could be a person trained in Applied sciences with multiple degrees and even more post graduate diplomas
or
I could be a cheeky 12 year old girl who gets her jollies by pretending to be some one else & fooling lots of people.
It is up to the reader to decide .
That is why I have a plain avatar and no signature line so what is written can be challenged , and hopefully it does get challenged because I am not always right but once challenged & convinced that I am wrong I then have the oppertunity to change my opinion thus become right .
Science students are taught from the very start that all "facts , rules & laws" are only correct till proven other wise at which time they become myths to be replaced by the new " facts, rules & laws ".
Religions & poltics are the only entities that demmand they be the absolute unquestionable truth and that leads to conflict when one can not admit that they night not have been as correct as they first believed.
The above is written with due respect to all with hard line political beliefs and deep religious convictions.
In a free world you have the right to believe what you want to .
On the web all people should be equal and anything posted should be considered opinion .
That being the case when one needs to make a point one has to explain how they arrived at the point.
This then allows skepitcs & dissenters the oppertunity to check what has been printed and come to their own conclusions .
I could be a person trained in Applied sciences with multiple degrees and even more post graduate diplomas
or
I could be a cheeky 12 year old girl who gets her jollies by pretending to be some one else & fooling lots of people.
It is up to the reader to decide .
That is why I have a plain avatar and no signature line so what is written can be challenged , and hopefully it does get challenged because I am not always right but once challenged & convinced that I am wrong I then have the oppertunity to change my opinion thus become right .
Science students are taught from the very start that all "facts , rules & laws" are only correct till proven other wise at which time they become myths to be replaced by the new " facts, rules & laws ".
Religions & poltics are the only entities that demmand they be the absolute unquestionable truth and that leads to conflict when one can not admit that they night not have been as correct as they first believed.
The above is written with due respect to all with hard line political beliefs and deep religious convictions.
In a free world you have the right to believe what you want to .
#163
C
ChrisBFRPKY
.
C
ChrisBFRPKY
Ah, and approaching 300 hours.........I had good service out of mine too. It never showed any of the classic signs either until it grenaded.My Cub Cadet is 2010 year model,
.
#164
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
Did you ever check the top cover bolts?
As far as I know most people never knew the bolts were loose until it kaboomed
As far as I know most people never knew the bolts were loose until it kaboomed
#165
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
The worst non cracked one I had come in was an engine that would not crank.
The owner had changed the starter, solenoid & battery
It would not crank because one bolt had backed out into the flywheel, ground most of the head off then bent far enough to prevent the flywheel rotating .
Oddly enough , no crack, no blown gasket and once the 4 offending bolts were replaced it was back in the hands of the owner .
The owner had changed the starter, solenoid & battery
It would not crank because one bolt had backed out into the flywheel, ground most of the head off then bent far enough to prevent the flywheel rotating .
Oddly enough , no crack, no blown gasket and once the 4 offending bolts were replaced it was back in the hands of the owner .
#166
C
ChrisBFRPKY
Then came my buddy Doug. Doug worked at the local airport performing annual maintenance on small aircraft. One day while I was picking up a few cans of AV gas Doug was in the middle of rebuilding an engine. I'm not certain but I think it was a lycoming. Anyway, Doug complained that the bearings were in poor condition and the ones furthest away from the oil pump were "galded" likely due to the owner performing his own oil changes and not using "aviation oil". He said "Aviation oil would have prevented this damage" I immediately purchased a couple of quarts and went home to experiment. Doug was right, problem solved. The synthetic "Aviation" oil prevented the Briggs crankshafts from melting their way into the flywheel side of the block. I would later put it to the test by using a non modified block in an open class engine build and it worked well with no failure at the flywheel side of the block.
Another benefit. Later I switched the fuel in my kart engines from AV gas over to methanol. It was great and others soon followed. However they were experiencing something I wasn't. Many of their engines were failing due to improper lubrication. You see methanol has a tendency to get past the rings of a small engine and work its way into the engine oil. Their standard oils were being broken down by the methanol, after all it's a great solvent, and their engines were failing as a result. It became a common practice for those guys to drain the oil and refill with fresh stuff approx every 15 to 20 laps or suffer the consequences of a failed engine. Still during long race sessions many of the other guys engines were failing. Mine weren't. I even reused my oil. It was expensive and when drained I noticed it looked good just smelled like it had a lot of methanol in it. I would allow the oil to sit in an open container for a few days and when the methanol evaporated from the oil, I strained it thru a filter and reused it several times over.
So synthetic oil is superior to conventional motor oil in every way shape and form. Small engines benefit from the use of synthetic oil.
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I'm still going to disagree on your stance about synthetic oil. Especially in small engines. I began using synthetic in the 1970's to combat a specific engine failure area of the 5hp L head Briggs engines and it worked like a charm. Those engines were in no way "designed" for synthetic oil. In fact they specifically required sae 30w non detergent oil. You see back in the days of kart racing before Briggs made a ready available IC engine that came with a roller bearing on each end of the crankshaft, the 5hp Briggs engine was prone to lubrication failure on the flywheel side of the block. The crank bore could not get enough oil at high rpm and the shaft would seize in the block, welding aluminum to the crankshaft journal and effectively locking the engine tight. I tried many different approaches to correct this problem from machining and drilling specific areas of the block to actually machining grooves into the main journal of the crankshaft so it would act as a mechanical pump pushing oil toward the seal by using the rotation of the crankshaft. The most successful approach ended up machining the spiral groove into the block main. But for extended high rpm sessions of my open class engines there was still the occasional failure.No body has said there were no problems with the courage singe which became apparent after a considerable amount of time.
If Kohler were the devil you like to paint them they would have said "Stiff Cheese, out of warranty go suck eggs " but no they investigated the problem then made good on just about every engine that failed .
Every mower that has come in with loose bolts was well out of warranty and most would have been lucky to have had the oil changed at all since new .
In my customers case I could have sent the engines in to an authorised Kohler dealer along with my detailed warranty claim form and they would have eventually supplied the dealer with a new short block.
However the dealer confirmed that the whole shooting match would take around 3 months if Kohler actually had any short blocks in stock and up to 2 more if they were waiting on supply from the USA.
The customer then had the choice $ 300 and back on Friday or $ 65 and back at the end of the season ( price of service parts )
If you go to the government recall notice site you will see the ONLY time there is a full product recall is when using the mower is likely to cause serious injury or death and most of these are for fire risk .
Kohler did issue a service alert and your dealer should have contacted you if you are a home service type of person and if you took the mower in for a service then the loctite would have been applied.
The local Husqvarna shop sent out a service alert to all of their customers who had registered their mowers or left contact details so the dealler could follow up .
However the bulk of the customers do not ever register their product and it is blindingly obvious you did not do it either and got caught out .
If you had bought your service parts from the mower shop then you should have been alerted but I will hazard another guess that Joe Broke buys all his parts of Amazon .
AFAIK , Kohler handled the whole shooting match with a very high level of honesty & integrity .
When the Courage went into production Kohler installed a brand new casting machine with a smaller mold carousel imported from Germany. From memory it was a 19 or 23 mold unit.
It was big news in the Americam Foundrymens Journal, Casting Today & Foundry Planet , all of which I subscribe to .
Again I am hazarding a guess here , but it is one that is based on foundry problem solving , that one of the molds had a problem so you end up with 1 in 20 finished engines with a potential problem and this is around the number I see in practice . This could of course just be a coincidence .
As for courts finding patient infringements, I am yet to find a judge who did a Law-Engineering double degree .
Tribunals formed from suitably qualified professionals make sound decisions based on engineering.
Courts make rulings based of the quality of the arguement and that is more to do with the presentation than the facts
Counter weights running on eccentric cams have been around since the recriprocating steam engine so there is nothing new about the idea or application of the idea that has not been done 1000 times before .
Convincing a judge is not a big deal. convnincing a pannel of suitably qualified engineers is another things all together.
Considering that the engines are the same capacities , pistons are similar weights and running speeds are the same it should be no surprise to an intellegent person that the two counterweight balance system end up being very similar.
As for synthetics being superiour they are not .
They are DIFFERENT and different is not superiour .
120 octane race fuel is superiour to the pump gas you put in your mower , but do that and it will auto destruct in a very short time.
Oil flow is a very complicated thing and oil pressure is proportional to the cross sectional area of the flow surfaces and the resistance of the oil to passing through it.
The resistance to flow is also controlled by the turbulance created by the surface roughness , so journals designed for synthetic oils are ground smoother and to a closer tollerance .
Synthetics flow at a much lower pressure than standard oils because the size & shape of the oil molecules is far more more consistant and in most cases smaller .
Thus when pushed through a slipper type of bearing designed for standard oil most synthetics flow faster at a reduced oil pressure which is exactly what they were designed to do .
However the oil passage on a mower engine designed for standard oils is too big so the pressure drops and the oil film breaks down .
If the mower engine was run all day long every day then it becomes apparent very quickly. but most only run a few hours a week for around 1/2 the year so this takes a long time to rear it's ugly head .
There is nothing wrong with using a synthetic oil, in an engine that is designed for synthetic oil .
Putting it in an engine designed for standard oil is a waste of money at best and detrimental to the engine at worst.
When synthetics hit the market the advertisers had to convince Joe Ignorant that there was value in filling their sump with some thing that was 10 times more expensive so they devised all sorts of stunts in order to sell the product.
Most of these bore no resmenellance to actual service conditions
Down here we got a whole swathe of laboratory test videos of 3 ball & cup testers showing just how much more pressure the synthetics took before they failed.
However these are LAB tests designed to do nothing more than assure quality and to compare changes to a blend or process.
Find some where in your engine where you force 3 ball bearings into a rotating plate till it jambs .
Then came my buddy Doug. Doug worked at the local airport performing annual maintenance on small aircraft. One day while I was picking up a few cans of AV gas Doug was in the middle of rebuilding an engine. I'm not certain but I think it was a lycoming. Anyway, Doug complained that the bearings were in poor condition and the ones furthest away from the oil pump were "galded" likely due to the owner performing his own oil changes and not using "aviation oil". He said "Aviation oil would have prevented this damage" I immediately purchased a couple of quarts and went home to experiment. Doug was right, problem solved. The synthetic "Aviation" oil prevented the Briggs crankshafts from melting their way into the flywheel side of the block. I would later put it to the test by using a non modified block in an open class engine build and it worked well with no failure at the flywheel side of the block.
Another benefit. Later I switched the fuel in my kart engines from AV gas over to methanol. It was great and others soon followed. However they were experiencing something I wasn't. Many of their engines were failing due to improper lubrication. You see methanol has a tendency to get past the rings of a small engine and work its way into the engine oil. Their standard oils were being broken down by the methanol, after all it's a great solvent, and their engines were failing as a result. It became a common practice for those guys to drain the oil and refill with fresh stuff approx every 15 to 20 laps or suffer the consequences of a failed engine. Still during long race sessions many of the other guys engines were failing. Mine weren't. I even reused my oil. It was expensive and when drained I noticed it looked good just smelled like it had a lot of methanol in it. I would allow the oil to sit in an open container for a few days and when the methanol evaporated from the oil, I strained it thru a filter and reused it several times over.
So synthetic oil is superior to conventional motor oil in every way shape and form. Small engines benefit from the use of synthetic oil.
#167
C
ChrisBFRPKY
It actually makes sense economically for someone to purchase one of those tractors and repower it. Even if they needed to take it to a local shop and have the work performed. A decent grass cutter here in the US is usually in excess of $2K. For the economically challenged one third of that for a mower with a new engine is certainly appealing.
I agree with your assessment on vertical shaft engines. I think they are fine for the specific application of cutting grass though. Yet if I were to build a high performance engine tomorrow it certainly wouldn't be a vertical shaft design.
C
ChrisBFRPKY
In the US lots of Cub Cadets were fitted with the Courage engine. We have an online trading site here to buy and sell locally called "craigslist" and on it you can find many examples of those cub cadets for sale with blown engines. Just about any city in the US. Heck even here on this forum there's an engine swap section I noticed that has at least one individual swapping out a failed Courage on a Cub. Some Craftsman mowers also had that engine and I'm sure others as well as most of the lawn tractors in the US are built by either MTD or AYP divisions. There's not a lot of diversity with many models only differing slightly in sheet metal and paint color.And just a side note
No Cubs down here fitted with defective Kohlers that I have ever heard of , just Husqvarna's and in that case the mowers came with either a Kohler ( YTH 4219K ) or a Briggs .
And I too have a Kohler powered mower.
It came from a customer who bought it from a cricket club and when he picked it up it was bone dry & had never been serviced .
There was excessive wear in the engine & both spindle housing wre broken but it cleaned up ok , got a new ACR fitted & he mowed commercially with it for 3 years till he upgraded to a Greenfields with a smaller deck .
I got it as payment for servicing it and currently it is a loaner kept for older customers who don't have the leg strength to work the manual drive on the Cox or Greenfields that I usually loan out.
So yes I have skin in the courage game as well .
As a service tech, I could list common faults with just about every engine that comes through the workshop .
The most warranty claims I have put through are against Kawasaki for rocker housing failures where the support has come loose and taken the locating pip with it.
The last one I serviced I noticed the pip is now longer .
What you fail to appreciate is a vertical shaft engine is the absolute rock bottom engine.
They are all built down to a price which is why manufactureres like Hond who value their name & reputation highly have stopped making them .
This is primarily because the buying public is too stupid to appreciate quality engineering and too cheap to pay for it .
If all the market will pay for is trash then that is what the factories will make .
It actually makes sense economically for someone to purchase one of those tractors and repower it. Even if they needed to take it to a local shop and have the work performed. A decent grass cutter here in the US is usually in excess of $2K. For the economically challenged one third of that for a mower with a new engine is certainly appealing.
I agree with your assessment on vertical shaft engines. I think they are fine for the specific application of cutting grass though. Yet if I were to build a high performance engine tomorrow it certainly wouldn't be a vertical shaft design.
#168
C
ChrisBFRPKY
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I checked mine after my buddy's second engine had the issue with his backing off. Everything was fine on mine. I never had any issues with the bolts loosening. This caused me to agree with his assessment that it was probably just worker error on his. I think he did put some loctite on his bolts when he sorted his out but I never had to as mine were tight and remained that way until destruction. The only bolts loose or missing on mine happened during the destruction phase when the back of the block came off. Again, I had nothing but good service from this engine until it grenaded. It did vibrate some but all single cylinders do to some degree. I didn't think mine too excessive especially when compared to clone engines. I had to add star lock washers to the side cover of my son's mini bike as his clone engine vibrated the cover bolts loose and leaked the oil out. Which is the repair I'd recommend for the Courage top bolts. Star washers actually bite into the metal and I would put more faith in them holding bolts in place than the loctite.Did you ever check the top cover bolts?
As far as I know most people never knew the bolts were loose until it kaboomed
#169
B
bertsmobile1
I will not argue that if you are substantially modifing the engine then the original oil might not work as it should and the crank can end up becoming an effective slinger preventing the oil entering the passageway it was designed to flow through.
But modifing a low power slow reving engine into a high performance cart engine is a whole different ball game to dumping synthetic into a standard engine and expecting magic to happen.
An yes we have mower racing down here & I have assisted some galoots who want to get 7000 + out of their Briggs engines and have them stay together for the whole season .
Also built stacks of dope powered BSA A7 ( 500cc ) twin enginesback in the 70's / 80's for open class kart racing as well as Gold Star powered midgets and strait Goldie short circuit racers.
'All running dope and lubed with castor oil because of the afore mentioned chemical incompatibality between dope & mineral oil .
Naturally this stopped when dope was banned but now I do an occasional engine for historic / period racing where dope is allowed.
But again that does not make synthetic universally better, it makes it different .
What I have seen is a lot of bog standard mower engines with top bush seizures because the owner switched to synthetics, ignored the max slope recommendations and cooked their engines .
And this is even worse if they decide to mow at less than full revs because hey want to go slow .
They don't get the fact that the synthetic drains out of the top well faster so where as on 30 they could mow right along their entire sloped yard in one hit without problems , the synthetic caused seizures unles they zig-zag a bit.
I have also seen quite a few where the engine ran dry because the synthetic escaped past the lower seal ( which were old and should have been replaced ) and the owner was oblivious to this because the synthetics do not burn and stink any near as much as standard oil does.
Ditto for engines with old worn bores that used to smoke a bit on SAE 30 but magically stopped blowing smoke out the exhaust when they switched to synthetic , till the engine ran out of oil & stopped all together.
The other problem with synthetics is not the oil itself but the users who seriously believe because it costs 5 to 10 times as much it should stay in the engine for 5 to 10 times longer rather than being changed every season.
I am not a luddite and use synthetics where specified, particularly in hydro trannies but to date there are no mowers in my service run that require synthetics .
I also used to assist a couple of racers who drove rally cross , sort of short circuit for cars back in the 70's .
In these we ran ATF/graphite mix in the diff & box and if we were lucky they would last a full season in Minnis & VWs before the gears were worn sharp enough to shave on .
However you do these sorts of things cause we were chasing 80Hp from an old 1200cc 40Hp VW
B
bertsmobile1
I'm still going to disagree on your stance about synthetic oil. Especially in small engines. I began using synthetic in the 1970's to combat a specific engine failure area of the 5hp L head Briggs engines and it worked like a charm. Those engines were in no way "designed" for synthetic oil. In fact they specifically required sae 30w non detergent oil. You see back in the days of kart racing before Briggs made a ready available IC engine that came with a roller bearing on each end of the crankshaft, the 5hp Briggs engine was prone to lubrication failure on the flywheel side of the block. The crank bore could not get enough oil at high rpm and the shaft would seize in the block, welding aluminum to the crankshaft journal and effectively locking the engine tight. I tried many different approaches to correct this problem from machining and drilling specific areas of the block to actually machining grooves into the main journal of the crankshaft so it would act as a mechanical pump pushing oil toward the seal by using the rotation of the crankshaft. The most successful approach ended up machining the spiral groove into the block main. But for extended high rpm sessions of my open class engines there was still the occasional failure.
Then came my buddy Doug. Doug worked at the local airport performing annual maintenance on small aircraft. One day while I was picking up a few cans of AV gas Doug was in the middle of rebuilding an engine. I'm not certain but I think it was a lycoming. Anyway, Doug complained that the bearings were in poor condition and the ones furthest away from the oil pump were "galded" likely due to the owner performing his own oil changes and not using "aviation oil". He said "Aviation oil would have prevented this damage" I immediately purchased a couple of quarts and went home to experiment. Doug was right, problem solved. The synthetic "Aviation" oil prevented the Briggs crankshafts from melting their way into the flywheel side of the block. I would later put it to the test by using a non modified block in an open class engine build and it worked well with no failure at the flywheel side of the block.
Another benefit. Later I switched the fuel in my kart engines from AV gas over to methanol. It was great and others soon followed. However they were experiencing something I wasn't. Many of their engines were failing due to improper lubrication. You see methanol has a tendency to get past the rings of a small engine and work its way into the engine oil. Their standard oils were being broken down by the methanol, after all it's a great solvent, and their engines were failing as a result. It became a common practice for those guys to drain the oil and refill with fresh stuff approx every 15 to 20 laps or suffer the consequences of a failed engine. Still during long race sessions many of the other guys engines were failing. Mine weren't. I even reused my oil. It was expensive and when drained I noticed it looked good just smelled like it had a lot of methanol in it. I would allow the oil to sit in an open container for a few days and when the methanol evaporated from the oil, I strained it thru a filter and reused it several times over.
So synthetic oil is superior to conventional motor oil in every way shape and form. Small engines benefit from the use of synthetic oil.
I will not argue that if you are substantially modifing the engine then the original oil might not work as it should and the crank can end up becoming an effective slinger preventing the oil entering the passageway it was designed to flow through.
But modifing a low power slow reving engine into a high performance cart engine is a whole different ball game to dumping synthetic into a standard engine and expecting magic to happen.
An yes we have mower racing down here & I have assisted some galoots who want to get 7000 + out of their Briggs engines and have them stay together for the whole season .
Also built stacks of dope powered BSA A7 ( 500cc ) twin enginesback in the 70's / 80's for open class kart racing as well as Gold Star powered midgets and strait Goldie short circuit racers.
'All running dope and lubed with castor oil because of the afore mentioned chemical incompatibality between dope & mineral oil .
Naturally this stopped when dope was banned but now I do an occasional engine for historic / period racing where dope is allowed.
But again that does not make synthetic universally better, it makes it different .
What I have seen is a lot of bog standard mower engines with top bush seizures because the owner switched to synthetics, ignored the max slope recommendations and cooked their engines .
And this is even worse if they decide to mow at less than full revs because hey want to go slow .
They don't get the fact that the synthetic drains out of the top well faster so where as on 30 they could mow right along their entire sloped yard in one hit without problems , the synthetic caused seizures unles they zig-zag a bit.
I have also seen quite a few where the engine ran dry because the synthetic escaped past the lower seal ( which were old and should have been replaced ) and the owner was oblivious to this because the synthetics do not burn and stink any near as much as standard oil does.
Ditto for engines with old worn bores that used to smoke a bit on SAE 30 but magically stopped blowing smoke out the exhaust when they switched to synthetic , till the engine ran out of oil & stopped all together.
The other problem with synthetics is not the oil itself but the users who seriously believe because it costs 5 to 10 times as much it should stay in the engine for 5 to 10 times longer rather than being changed every season.
I am not a luddite and use synthetics where specified, particularly in hydro trannies but to date there are no mowers in my service run that require synthetics .
I also used to assist a couple of racers who drove rally cross , sort of short circuit for cars back in the 70's .
In these we ran ATF/graphite mix in the diff & box and if we were lucky they would last a full season in Minnis & VWs before the gears were worn sharp enough to shave on .
However you do these sorts of things cause we were chasing 80Hp from an old 1200cc 40Hp VW
#170
G
gainestruk
G
gainestruk
I'm still having great service out of my Courage 19hp, its never had synthetic oil in it, always Pennzoil 10W30 and I'm up to 867 hrs as of last mow,.
Before first mow each year I take fan cover off and check.bolt torque and clean fins, I change oil each 50 hrs and keep air pre cleaner clean washing and oiling it after every 2nd mow and change filter and pre cleaner each year.
I average 45-60 hrs a year depending on how much rain we get her in Oklahoma.
Before first mow each year I take fan cover off and check.bolt torque and clean fins, I change oil each 50 hrs and keep air pre cleaner clean washing and oiling it after every 2nd mow and change filter and pre cleaner each year.
I average 45-60 hrs a year depending on how much rain we get her in Oklahoma.
#171
C
ChrisBFRPKY
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I would think that most small engine failures come from a lack of oil rather than using synthetic. I realize you must deal with customers as I have before. When an engine comes in with a problem very few will ever admit they ran the engine low on oil. "It was full of oil" was the typical response I heard when investigating engine failures. On one splash type systems that had no other issues I asked, "If it was full of oil why is the rod welded to the crank?" The customer had no answer. From that point he knew that I knew and the facts were right in front of us. Pressure lube systems. If that oil pump is functioning as it should and there are no restrictions or trash clogging a passage to an internal component the only remaining answer is there was no oil or not enough oil getting to the component, not that synthetic oil is to blame. Viscosity is viscosity no matter conventional or synthetic. A pressure lube system also doesn't have the same limitation as a splash lube. Hillsides are rarely a problem for pressure lube engines as oil is pumped rather than splashed into vital engine components.
Now there were exceptions such as a broken rod dipper or a failed oil pump which would explain and further support a customer's claim that engine had oil prior to the failure. But in many cases the evidence pointed to not enough oil in the engine as the deciding factor. Now I'm not talking about physical component failures, only lubrication failures.
This lead me to believe that sometimes customers lie. It was especially funny to see brand new oil had been poured into a blown engine after the fact. To where the new oil had never had the chance to mix with the small amount of black used oil that remained in the case. Hilarious. Yes Jessica, there are customers who lie.
Now there were exceptions such as a broken rod dipper or a failed oil pump which would explain and further support a customer's claim that engine had oil prior to the failure. But in many cases the evidence pointed to not enough oil in the engine as the deciding factor. Now I'm not talking about physical component failures, only lubrication failures.
This lead me to believe that sometimes customers lie. It was especially funny to see brand new oil had been poured into a blown engine after the fact. To where the new oil had never had the chance to mix with the small amount of black used oil that remained in the case. Hilarious. Yes Jessica, there are customers who lie.
#172
G
gainestruk
G
gainestruk
I agree lack of maintenance and simply checking oil is a major problem.
I own a Jeep Renegade and am on Renegade forum, I don't know how many came on to complain their 2.4 multi air shut down and had to be towed to dealer, the problem is the 0W20 oil burns off in some of the engines, it shuts engine down when it has little pressure, when we ask did you check oil answer is no its a new car and they don't burn oil, it usually happens 6000 to 7000 miles, I check mine a lot, but I got one that uses very little oil.
I own a Jeep Renegade and am on Renegade forum, I don't know how many came on to complain their 2.4 multi air shut down and had to be towed to dealer, the problem is the 0W20 oil burns off in some of the engines, it shuts engine down when it has little pressure, when we ask did you check oil answer is no its a new car and they don't burn oil, it usually happens 6000 to 7000 miles, I check mine a lot, but I got one that uses very little oil.
#173
B
bertsmobile1
So you and I will just have to disagree.
Viscosity , like a lot of other so called properties is a method of testing & comparing , not a measure of how the oil behaves in service.
It is simply a time measuremant for a fixed quantity of oil at a fixed temperature to pass through a funnel which is way bigger than any passage way the oil sees in an engine apart from the dip stick tube.
Depending upon which particular viscosity index you are using it can also be the pressure required to push a fixed volume of a liquid through a hole of fixed size in a fixed time.
And again the most common index used is just a comparrison to water which is 1 at STP.
In order for the oil pump to get to a specified oil pressure, it has to be pumping the oil faster than the oil is passing through the oil passageways.
The pump can only pump the required minimum 15 psi a pressure fed mower crank if there is something to pump against .
It was a common problem when owners of slipper bearing engines shifted to rolling element engines and went besrek when they took oil pressure readings and found them to be in single digit numbers
They could just not get their heads around the fact that oil pressure in a roller bearing big end is effecitvely 0 .
Admittedly I have no done this on mower engines but on some British motorcycle engines the synthetic oils flowed a significantly higher volume of oil than the standard oils did and at a lower pressure .
This we put down to a significantly better laminar flow which again is measured using a different viscosity index and some near impossible calculations.
I have said my piece, nothing more to add.
Enjoyed your company and your input .
If our dissagreement has caused a few to have some deep thoughts then it has been very productive.
This is what open public forums are all about.
B
bertsmobile1
I would think that most small engine failures come from a lack of oil rather than using synthetic. I realize you must deal with customers as I have before. When an engine comes in with a problem very few will ever admit they ran the engine low on oil. "It was full of oil" was the typical response I heard when investigating engine failures. On one splash type systems that had no other issues I asked, "If it was full of oil why is the rod welded to the crank?" The customer had no answer. From that point he knew that I knew and the facts were right in front of us. Pressure lube systems. If that oil pump is functioning as it should and there are no restrictions or trash clogging a passage to an internal component the only remaining answer is there was no oil or not enough oil getting to the component, not that synthetic oil is to blame. Viscosity is viscosity no matter conventional or synthetic. A pressure lube system also doesn't have the same limitation as a splash lube. Hillsides are rarely a problem for pressure lube engines as oil is pumped rather than splashed into vital engine components.
Now there were exceptions such as a broken rod dipper or a failed oil pump which would explain and further support a customer's claim that engine had oil prior to the failure. But in many cases the evidence pointed to not enough oil in the engine as the deciding factor. Now I'm not talking about physical component failures, only lubrication failures.
This lead me to believe that sometimes customers lie. It was especially funny to see brand new oil had been poured into a blown engine after the fact. To where the new oil had never had the chance to mix with the small amount of black used oil that remained in the case. Hilarious. Yes Jessica, there are customers who lie.
So you and I will just have to disagree.
Viscosity , like a lot of other so called properties is a method of testing & comparing , not a measure of how the oil behaves in service.
It is simply a time measuremant for a fixed quantity of oil at a fixed temperature to pass through a funnel which is way bigger than any passage way the oil sees in an engine apart from the dip stick tube.
Depending upon which particular viscosity index you are using it can also be the pressure required to push a fixed volume of a liquid through a hole of fixed size in a fixed time.
And again the most common index used is just a comparrison to water which is 1 at STP.
In order for the oil pump to get to a specified oil pressure, it has to be pumping the oil faster than the oil is passing through the oil passageways.
The pump can only pump the required minimum 15 psi a pressure fed mower crank if there is something to pump against .
It was a common problem when owners of slipper bearing engines shifted to rolling element engines and went besrek when they took oil pressure readings and found them to be in single digit numbers
They could just not get their heads around the fact that oil pressure in a roller bearing big end is effecitvely 0 .
Admittedly I have no done this on mower engines but on some British motorcycle engines the synthetic oils flowed a significantly higher volume of oil than the standard oils did and at a lower pressure .
This we put down to a significantly better laminar flow which again is measured using a different viscosity index and some near impossible calculations.
I have said my piece, nothing more to add.
Enjoyed your company and your input .
If our dissagreement has caused a few to have some deep thoughts then it has been very productive.
This is what open public forums are all about.
#174
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
Oh, so you're counterbalance destructed, it wasn't the crack in the upper corner of the block?I checked mine after my buddy's second engine had the issue with his backing off. Everything was fine on mine. I never had any issues with the bolts loosening. This caused me to agree with his assessment that it was probably just worker error on his. I think he did put some loctite on his bolts when he sorted his out but I never had to as mine were tight and remained that way until destruction. The only bolts loose or missing on mine happened during the destruction phase when the back of the block came off. Again, I had nothing but good service from this engine until it grenaded. It did vibrate some but all single cylinders do to some degree. I didn't think mine too excessive especially when compared to clone engines. I had to add star lock washers to the side cover of my son's mini bike as his clone engine vibrated the cover bolts loose and leaked the oil out. Which is the repair I'd recommend for the Courage top bolts. Star washers actually bite into the metal and I would put more faith in them holding bolts in place than the loctite.
#175
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I'm glad you're having good service from your engine. I was too until it grenaded. I have a feeling you may understand how I feel about it first hand sooner or later.
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I realize you're looking for a "gotcha" that's why I specifically outlined in my earlier reply that my block was damaged when the balancer blew out the back. Now you're gonna talk about the black oil stains indicate a old leakage so I'll save you the trouble and time and let you know the cub was stored in my garage and I use a leaf blower to blow out the dirt, dust and grass from mowers and the floor after each use. Dirt, grass and dust sticks to oil like a magnet and the entire engine was coated with oil residue aside from what I wiped away to have a look at things.Oh, so you're counterbalance destructed, it wasn't the crack in the upper corner of the block?
I'm glad you're having good service from your engine. I was too until it grenaded. I have a feeling you may understand how I feel about it first hand sooner or later.
#176
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
Yep, all i do is 24/7 "ha ha, got you"
All your posts imply that you think the entire courage line is junk and inferior and Kohler owes you the world. As i said earlier, Any manufacturer is going to have a problem at SOME point in the life of the company, that;s just what happens, especially when you try to cut costs, you and few other hundred *maybe* thousand people had trouble with an engine where most likely hundreds of thousands were made. Too bad you got a lemon.
... what do you think about gainestruk's courage with 867 hours?
All your posts imply that you think the entire courage line is junk and inferior and Kohler owes you the world. As i said earlier, Any manufacturer is going to have a problem at SOME point in the life of the company, that;s just what happens, especially when you try to cut costs, you and few other hundred *maybe* thousand people had trouble with an engine where most likely hundreds of thousands were made. Too bad you got a lemon.
... what do you think about gainestruk's courage with 867 hours?
If it does blow, it's been a good engine for nearly 11 years, and kept the place looking good.I have a feeling you may understand how I feel about it first hand sooner or later.
#177
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
#178
S
slomo
As for attempting to correct guys like Scrubcadet10, Rivets and Bertsmobile1, forget it. These guys and many others here have a ton of small engine knowledge. They've been around the block several times. You are fighting a losing battle. We are very fortunate these guys are on here. They make this forum what it is.
slomo
S
slomo
Dude, your engine blew. Get over it. Blaming a brand name for life, does nothing productive. You still have a blown engine...... Like a little child throwing a tantrum. Put your juice box down and pull up your diaper.I realize you're looking for a "gotcha" that's why I specifically outlined in my earlier reply that my block was damaged when the balancer blew out the back. Now you're gonna talk about the black oil stains indicate a old leakage so I'll save you the trouble and time and let you know the cub was stored in my garage and I use a leaf blower to blow out the dirt, dust and grass from mowers and the floor after each use. Dirt, grass and dust sticks to oil like a magnet and the entire engine was coated with oil residue aside from what I wiped away to have a look at things.
I'm glad you're having good service from your engine. I was too until it grenaded. I have a feeling you may understand how I feel about it first hand sooner or later.
As for attempting to correct guys like Scrubcadet10, Rivets and Bertsmobile1, forget it. These guys and many others here have a ton of small engine knowledge. They've been around the block several times. You are fighting a losing battle. We are very fortunate these guys are on here. They make this forum what it is.
slomo
#179
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
From a dealer standpoint the number of failed Courage singles due to loose cover bolts or failed counterbalance system is a blip on the radar. Less than 1% failed due to loose cover bolts or counterbalance systems which is below the national average failure rate for warranty claims across all brands. I am more concerned about the Kawasaki that does the same thing but when it blows punches a 6 inch hole in the side of the battery and dumps battery acid all over the frame and deck.
#180
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I think the single cylinders had a few flaws. If Kohler ironed them out over the years while taking care of the unlucky ones that received a lemon, great. If gainestruk has a single cylinder Courage with 867 hours that's also great however as you can see from a few Craigslist searches there are still many lawn tractors with the blown single cylinder versions for sale that like mine did not make it that far. 272 hours isn't much service from an engine IMO.
I don't feel Kohler owes me the World. They do however owe me for a defective engine. I guess if there weren't that many problems with them there wouldn't have been a need to extend warranties, create short block replacement programs or change the name of the entire engine line. But those things were done for a reason and I'm confident that I wasn't the only one to receive a defective Courage single cylinder engine. I have no complaints about the old K series or the Commands, only that pesky little single cylinder Courage. It was definitely Kohler's Pinto and Vega combined.
C
ChrisBFRPKY
I thought you might be one of those type of guys who searches usernames on google please excuse me if that's not the case.Yep, all i do is 24/7 "ha ha, got you"
All your posts imply that you think the entire courage line is junk and inferior and Kohler owes you the world. As i said earlier, Any manufacturer is going to have a problem at SOME point in the life of the company, that;s just what happens, especially when you try to cut costs, you and few other hundred *maybe* thousand people had trouble with an engine where most likely hundreds of thousands were made. Too bad you got a lemon.
... what do you think about gainestruk's courage with 867 hours?
If it does blow, it's been a good engine for nearly 11 years, and kept the place looking good.
I think the single cylinders had a few flaws. If Kohler ironed them out over the years while taking care of the unlucky ones that received a lemon, great. If gainestruk has a single cylinder Courage with 867 hours that's also great however as you can see from a few Craigslist searches there are still many lawn tractors with the blown single cylinder versions for sale that like mine did not make it that far. 272 hours isn't much service from an engine IMO.
I don't feel Kohler owes me the World. They do however owe me for a defective engine. I guess if there weren't that many problems with them there wouldn't have been a need to extend warranties, create short block replacement programs or change the name of the entire engine line. But those things were done for a reason and I'm confident that I wasn't the only one to receive a defective Courage single cylinder engine. I have no complaints about the old K series or the Commands, only that pesky little single cylinder Courage. It was definitely Kohler's Pinto and Vega combined.
#181
C
ChrisBFRPKY
As far as "correcting" anyone, I've not done that. I've had some interesting conversations with a few members here and we may share different opinions on things like synthetic oils etc. I welcome a friendly debate, it doesn't mean we're enemies. Having a conversation is just that. If everyone held the exact same views and opinions the World would be a pretty boring place. If we can agree on nothing else at least we can agree to disagree and that's alright by me.
C
ChrisBFRPKY
Yes my engine blew and I am over it. Further, I know why it blew and what caused it. Learning from these issues is what I do. When something like this occurs one doesn't simply scratch their head and go buy another of the exact same engine. You have to do some investigation, some research and determine the cause.Dude, your engine blew. Get over it. Blaming a brand name for life, does nothing productive. You still have a blown engine...... Like a little child throwing a tantrum. Put your juice box down and pull up your diaper.
As for attempting to correct guys like Scrubcadet10, Rivets and Bertsmobile1, forget it. These guys and many others here have a ton of small engine knowledge. They've been around the block several times. You are fighting a losing battle. We are very fortunate these guys are on here. They make this forum what it is.
slomo
As far as "correcting" anyone, I've not done that. I've had some interesting conversations with a few members here and we may share different opinions on things like synthetic oils etc. I welcome a friendly debate, it doesn't mean we're enemies. Having a conversation is just that. If everyone held the exact same views and opinions the World would be a pretty boring place. If we can agree on nothing else at least we can agree to disagree and that's alright by me.
#182
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
As far as i know Kohler didn't change the name of that engine line...
#183
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
Scrub the Courage single line morphed into the 5400 series and the Courage twin became the 7000 and similar engine series.
And to Chris if you think the Courage single was bad check into the OHC or Triad series. Used on Walker and Grasshoppers they had issues with the cylinder liners migrating downward into the lower crankcase breaking both rods. That series had to be retrofitted for replacement with Command series engines.
And to Chris if you think the Courage single was bad check into the OHC or Triad series. Used on Walker and Grasshoppers they had issues with the cylinder liners migrating downward into the lower crankcase breaking both rods. That series had to be retrofitted for replacement with Command series engines.
#184
C
ChrisBFRPKY
C
ChrisBFRPKY
They "retired" the Courage and replaced it with a redesign of the Courage, the new design did not carry the Courage name. It was introduced as the "5400 series". New balance system, different head, different cam design. The latest greatest new engine yet it still retains the old bucket engine design. As long as the balance system and block issues have been corrected I say bravo!
#186
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
The whole point of unmoderated open public forums is that people can express opinions without interfearence , bias or prejudice from the forum owners.
What is posted should always be taken at face value and judged on the strength of the arguement, not who is presenting it .
I and every other tech can be just as wrong as any other person on the planet .
Chris came on a bit strong, he has a bit of SOL about the engine which if anyone bought one & had it blow from almost new he is entitled to have.
And some of us here have great respect & admiration for the engine
Both sides expressed these so now it is up to the consummers to decide which side they will fall on .
The latter postings will be way too late for the original poster, but debates like this hopefully will alert other people researching Courage singles on second hand mowers they are thinking about buying .
I had never hear of the problem till I came here and by that time I had made one repair and tightend a few loose bolts.
This was a shame because for the first case I probably could have scored him a new short block as he had the full history of his mower from the day he bought it which he gave me but was unaware that Kohler were offering the very extended warranty,
OTOH I got in some welding practice on thin castings .
What is posted should always be taken at face value and judged on the strength of the arguement, not who is presenting it .
I and every other tech can be just as wrong as any other person on the planet .
Chris came on a bit strong, he has a bit of SOL about the engine which if anyone bought one & had it blow from almost new he is entitled to have.
And some of us here have great respect & admiration for the engine
Both sides expressed these so now it is up to the consummers to decide which side they will fall on .
The latter postings will be way too late for the original poster, but debates like this hopefully will alert other people researching Courage singles on second hand mowers they are thinking about buying .
I had never hear of the problem till I came here and by that time I had made one repair and tightend a few loose bolts.
This was a shame because for the first case I probably could have scored him a new short block as he had the full history of his mower from the day he bought it which he gave me but was unaware that Kohler were offering the very extended warranty,
OTOH I got in some welding practice on thin castings .
#187
ILENGINE
ILENGINE
Bert, Kohler didn't exactly make the extended warranty public. More of a passive field rep mentioned it while visiting.
#188
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
And that is understandable being that 99%of home owners do not understand what a warranty actually is .
Make it public and every man & his dog will be bringing their mower for a "warranty blade replacement or warranty spindle replacement .
I still get people wanting warranty engine replacements on FR & FS Kwakkas where the not real good air filter elbow has been leaking and the bores are polished mirror finish from all of the dust .
Now kawasaki / Toro / JD do have some liability in so far that there should be a filter warning issued with every bagger and a recommendation to upgrade to the Donaldson style air filter.
IF the owner is too cheap and they stuff their engine then it is tough luck.
Apparently owners who come in from bagging with 3 lb of dust down the inside of their shirts still do not consider the mower to be running in "dusty " conditions.
Make it public and every man & his dog will be bringing their mower for a "warranty blade replacement or warranty spindle replacement .
I still get people wanting warranty engine replacements on FR & FS Kwakkas where the not real good air filter elbow has been leaking and the bores are polished mirror finish from all of the dust .
Now kawasaki / Toro / JD do have some liability in so far that there should be a filter warning issued with every bagger and a recommendation to upgrade to the Donaldson style air filter.
IF the owner is too cheap and they stuff their engine then it is tough luck.
Apparently owners who come in from bagging with 3 lb of dust down the inside of their shirts still do not consider the mower to be running in "dusty " conditions.
#189
StarTech
StarTech
Or the one that is mowing rocks consider rocks might be the cause of the damage.
With warranties and service contracts it takes a lawyer to read and understand them because a written by lawyers. It sorta like the lifetime warranty I had on a modem years ago. It turn out to be a lifetime of the product warranty which mean that it expired as soon they retire the production of the modem. I was pissed to say the least when I found out that they quit the production two days before mine failed.
I even purchase a new car once with a bumper to bumper 12,000 warranty. It broke down with 800 miles and the dealer tried everything in the book to not cover it. Ended up having to Chrysler headquarters and my lawyer involved to get the fail distributor replaced.
With warranties and service contracts it takes a lawyer to read and understand them because a written by lawyers. It sorta like the lifetime warranty I had on a modem years ago. It turn out to be a lifetime of the product warranty which mean that it expired as soon they retire the production of the modem. I was pissed to say the least when I found out that they quit the production two days before mine failed.
I even purchase a new car once with a bumper to bumper 12,000 warranty. It broke down with 800 miles and the dealer tried everything in the book to not cover it. Ended up having to Chrysler headquarters and my lawyer involved to get the fail distributor replaced.
#190
PTmowerMech
Manufacturers aren't the only ones cutting costs. The consumer does it at almost every turn. Buying the cheapest the can, and complains that it didn't last as long as the high end models. The box stores figured this out a long time ago. Which is why Walmart doesn't have any quality mowers. Simply because they dictate what they'll pay MTD for their products. MTD, will buy the cheapest line of engines for their mowers so they can sell cheaper than the mom and pops.
PTmowerMech
I thought you might be one of those type of guys who searches usernames on google please excuse me if that's not the case.
I think the single cylinders had a few flaws. If Kohler ironed them out over the years while taking care of the unlucky ones that received a lemon, great. If gainestruk has a single cylinder Courage with 867 hours that's also great however as you can see from a few Craigslist searches there are still many lawn tractors with the blown single cylinder versions for sale that like mine did not make it that far. 272 hours isn't much service from an engine IMO.
I don't feel Kohler owes me the World. They do however owe me for a defective engine. I guess if there weren't that many problems with them there wouldn't have been a need to extend warranties, create short block replacement programs or change the name of the entire engine line. But those things were done for a reason and I'm confident that I wasn't the only one to receive a defective Courage single cylinder engine. I have no complaints about the old K series or the Commands, only that pesky little single cylinder Courage. It was definitely Kohler's Pinto and Vega combined.
Manufacturers aren't the only ones cutting costs. The consumer does it at almost every turn. Buying the cheapest the can, and complains that it didn't last as long as the high end models. The box stores figured this out a long time ago. Which is why Walmart doesn't have any quality mowers. Simply because they dictate what they'll pay MTD for their products. MTD, will buy the cheapest line of engines for their mowers so they can sell cheaper than the mom and pops.
#191
tom3
tom3
And the current 10 year warranties on Chinese refrigeration equipment. Read the fine print and it's on the compressor only, all else is a one year coverage. And a lot of the one year warranties is a replacement, keep the old junk, nobody wants it and the stuff is too cheap to pay for a repair anyway.
#192
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Most warranties today are not worth the paper it is printed on. I install a lot of audio/visual equipment and for the most part unless you can get the distributor to do a warranty exchange and then they fight with the mfgr you get told to send it to china on your dime so they can inspect it. When i do a sound system install or a projection system install i give a 1 year warranty. I have to build in enough profit to cover the possibility of replacing a piece of equipment on my dime within a year. Sometimes ya win and sometimes ya lose. I tend to not cater to folks who want the cheapest of everything. I focus more on the folks who are willing pay a bit more for quality. Just yesterday a guy actually tipped me $10 over what i charged him to fix his chainsaw because i turned it around the same day and did a through cleaning job on it. He said dealer is always at least a week to get it back as dirty as he took it in plus i actually warranty my work.
#193
upupandaway
upupandaway
That's why i am afraid if\when sears goes bye bye. Lowes won't do a swap so you would have to mail the tool to Stanley for replacement. I know because i had a broken Stanley tool and that is the lifetime warranty they offer....you get told to send it to china on your dime so they can inspect it. ....
#194
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
I hate to say it but about the best place i have had no questions asked warranty replacement is Harbor Freight. I don't break a lot of tools but HF has never hassled me.
#195
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I think that most people don’t realize that you get what you pay for and very seldom read the owner’s manual. A lot of DYI individuals feel that if they yell loud enough and try to embarrass a company or product, they will succeed in getting what they want. I have found out over the last fifty years that this is just the opposite of what to do. Most of the time a little sugar and honey works the best for me. I have gotten short blocks and even complete engines free, even two years out of “warranty “, because I’m able to show that I and the customer are willIng to work with the company to resolve a problem. That being said, I’ve also backed the company when a customer is trying to pull a fast one on the both of us. Some companies are very easy to work with and others are a real pain, which is the reason I recommend one over the other. Bottom line is pieces of paper that say warranty, coverage, limited liability, are just that, pieces of paper that companys use to CYA. How the consumer uses this piece of paper will dictate the outcome. Finally, the internet has not helped, because everyone assumes and takes what they read as absolute truth what they read applies to every situation and problem. They forget when they ASSUME, they must break it down to a three word phrase.
#196
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Fer sure. I bet some people actually believe the stuff i spew on this forum and think i actually know something about small engines when in reality i am a 13 year old girl named tiffany who is trolling you guys on this forum while i am waiting on my favorite social media influencer to post on Instagram again. ?Finally, the internet has not helped, because everyone assumes takes what they read as absolute truth
#197
StarTech
StarTech
Well Hello Tiffany I am Daisy Emu and am 6 years old.Fer sure. I bet some people actually believe the stuff i spew on this forum and think i actually know something about small engines when in reality i am a 13 year old girl named tiffany who is trolling you guys on this forum while i am waiting on my favorite social media influencer to post on Instagram again. ?
#198
robertcladner50
robertcladner50
I would like to hear from owners of the Kohler Courage engine about the reliability of this engine.I will start off by saying I have the 20 hp single with 120 hrs and no problems.I think that most people don’t realize that you get what you pay for and very seldom read the owner’s manual. A lot of DYI individuals feel that if they yell loud enough and try to embarrass a company or product, they will succeed in getting what they want. I have found out over the last fifty years that this is just the opposite of what to do. Most of the time a little sugar and honey works the best for me. I have gotten short blocks and even complete engines free, even two years out of “warranty “, because I’m able to show that I and the customer are willIng to work with the company to resolve a problem. That being said, I’ve also backed the company when a customer is trying to pull a fast one on the both of us. Some companies are very easy to work with and others are a real pain, which is the reason I recommend one over the other. Bottom line is pieces of paper that say warranty, coverage, limited liability, are just that, pieces of paper that companys use to CYA. How the consumer uses this piece of paper will dictate the outcome. Finally, the internet has not helped, because everyone assumes and takes what they read as absolute truth what they read applies to every situation and problem. They forget when they ASSUME, they must break it down to a three word phrase.
#199
tom3
tom3
I don't have one of those motors, and for sure - now - I never will. But for the bigger HP machines I want a twin, just because. A Kohler Courage and a Tuff Torq transaxle, now there's a recipe for disaster.
#200
EatPreyMow
EatPreyMow
Mine's an 2009 SV590S with 160 hours. Still runs strong. I retorqued and loc-tited the case bolts which I found were loose in 2015. I also set valve lash every two or three years.
Routine maintenance includes oil and filter changes once per year and regular cleaning of the cooling fins and air pre-filter. After mowing I always run the engine for a few minutes without the blades engaged to cool it down, then throttle it down for a few seconds before turning it off which avoids backfires.
It's been a great engine for me. Relatively smooth for a one banger, fuel efficient, and easy to start. From what I hear the balancer on my Courage could self destruct at any time, so my opinion of the engine could soon be readjusted.
Routine maintenance includes oil and filter changes once per year and regular cleaning of the cooling fins and air pre-filter. After mowing I always run the engine for a few minutes without the blades engaged to cool it down, then throttle it down for a few seconds before turning it off which avoids backfires.
It's been a great engine for me. Relatively smooth for a one banger, fuel efficient, and easy to start. From what I hear the balancer on my Courage could self destruct at any time, so my opinion of the engine could soon be readjusted.
#201
J
jagr1pooh
J
jagr1pooh
i have a ztl8000 i replaced the carb and forgot to take pics of the carb linkage. can someone send a pic or two. this is what i did and it isnt working, choke does but not throttle
Attachments
#202
M
mrmartin
M
mrmartin
You listen to him spout these are good engines but he is nuts. To consider buying a single cylinder courage takes courage...strike that...stupidity.I have a few questions? You said When you have cracked engine cases on engines with very few hours it has nothing with as to how well a engine been maintained. Was this your engine and did you buy it new?
#203
B
bertsmobile1
Kohler admitted that and had probably the longest warranty replacement period in world history apart from Rolls Royce .
However for the case to crack the 4 front bolts have to back out.
This does not happen in 5 seconds, it happens over a period of YEARS .
And every YEAR the blower housing should come off to clean the cooling fins & I usually blow the dust out from under the flywheel while I am there.
If that was done & the person doing it at at least 10% vision in both eyes then the fact that the bolts were loose would have been apparent .
OTOH I have had mowers come in that "Are making a funny squeaking sound " and when I ask how long for , I get told "OH about a year or two but the mower seemed to run OK so I did not bother with it "
Blower housing comes off, which is a 1 minute job because the 4 bolts all point up so are easy to access , and what do I see ?
Three bolts with the head ground completely off and 1/16" missing from the bottom of the flywheel.
If the bone lazy or too cheap for their own good owners spent as much effort doing the maintanance that is specified in the owners manual that they refuse to bother reading that they have jumping up & down trying to find a reason to blame some one else for their own inadequacy then there would have been absolutely no problem.
There are 3 husqvarnas with sequential serial numbers in my repair run.
Only one of them had bolts that backed off & I found them on my first service .
They have all done better that 1200 hours with no problems other than the spindle housings perpetually breaking on of the mounting lugs.
I would guess that Briggs & Stratton was behind the massive amount hostility towards the courage because the courage was a 500% better engine that the corrosponding intek and shortly after it's release it became the engine of choice drastically reducing their sales volumes.
And I keep 5 Courage top gaskets on hand
OTOH I have 20 intek head gaskets in stock and I go through the whole lot for the larger engines every year
I keep 3 cam shafts for each Intek engine capacity and I use them every year
I use 1 Courage cam every 2 years.
So you can keep your ill founded opinions if that makes you happy
I would be over the moon if every one of the 300 mowers I service each year had Courage engines in them
Down side is I would loose about $ 10,000 /year I make from replacing broken or worn down Intek cams and blown Intek head gaskets
B
bertsmobile1
The cases cracked because of a design flaw that was detected and corrected . It also only affected a small number of the enginesYou listen to him spout these are good engines but he is nuts. To consider buying a single cylinder courage takes courage...strike that...stupidity.
Kohler admitted that and had probably the longest warranty replacement period in world history apart from Rolls Royce .
However for the case to crack the 4 front bolts have to back out.
This does not happen in 5 seconds, it happens over a period of YEARS .
And every YEAR the blower housing should come off to clean the cooling fins & I usually blow the dust out from under the flywheel while I am there.
If that was done & the person doing it at at least 10% vision in both eyes then the fact that the bolts were loose would have been apparent .
OTOH I have had mowers come in that "Are making a funny squeaking sound " and when I ask how long for , I get told "OH about a year or two but the mower seemed to run OK so I did not bother with it "
Blower housing comes off, which is a 1 minute job because the 4 bolts all point up so are easy to access , and what do I see ?
Three bolts with the head ground completely off and 1/16" missing from the bottom of the flywheel.
If the bone lazy or too cheap for their own good owners spent as much effort doing the maintanance that is specified in the owners manual that they refuse to bother reading that they have jumping up & down trying to find a reason to blame some one else for their own inadequacy then there would have been absolutely no problem.
There are 3 husqvarnas with sequential serial numbers in my repair run.
Only one of them had bolts that backed off & I found them on my first service .
They have all done better that 1200 hours with no problems other than the spindle housings perpetually breaking on of the mounting lugs.
I would guess that Briggs & Stratton was behind the massive amount hostility towards the courage because the courage was a 500% better engine that the corrosponding intek and shortly after it's release it became the engine of choice drastically reducing their sales volumes.
And I keep 5 Courage top gaskets on hand
OTOH I have 20 intek head gaskets in stock and I go through the whole lot for the larger engines every year
I keep 3 cam shafts for each Intek engine capacity and I use them every year
I use 1 Courage cam every 2 years.
So you can keep your ill founded opinions if that makes you happy
I would be over the moon if every one of the 300 mowers I service each year had Courage engines in them
Down side is I would loose about $ 10,000 /year I make from replacing broken or worn down Intek cams and blown Intek head gaskets
#204
0729dad
0729dad
I get what you’re saying about the bagger system and dust but why shouldn’t Kawasaki honor an engine replacement under warranty if it’s their crappy air filter design that’s causing engines to get trashed?And that is understandable being that 99%of home owners do not understand what a warranty actually is .
Make it public and every man & his dog will be bringing their mower for a "warranty blade replacement or warranty spindle replacement .
I still get people wanting warranty engine replacements on FR & FS Kwakkas where the not real good air filter elbow has been leaking and the bores are polished mirror finish from all of the dust .
Now kawasaki / Toro / JD do have some liability in so far that there should be a filter warning issued with every bagger and a recommendation to upgrade to the Donaldson style air filter.
IF the owner is too cheap and they stuff their engine then it is tough luck.
Apparently owners who come in from bagging with 3 lb of dust down the inside of their shirts still do not consider the mower to be running in "dusty " conditions.
#205
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Because if the filter is fitted properly then it can do the job.
However it is a little difficult to fit properly and most push the tube on too far which causes it to leak.
This is a customer created problem.
The ones I fit don't leak
The factory can not control how the mower is used nor can it control what accessories the customer fits.
A dealer can advise that if you are going to bag a lot you really need to fit the FX engine with a better filter system
It is the purchaser who says "No I want the cheapest version "
Another case of Joe Public being too cheap for their own good.
My customer who first presented with the smooth bore used to get me to service his mower
Then he decided to do it himself.
It was not a problem when I was servicing the engine because I replaced the filter and checked the inside of the air tube for dust.
When he brought it in you could write your name in the dust.
However it has a FX cowl & filter now.
The Kohlers are the same
They do have a design problem but again when serviced properly it does not happen because a proper technician would check those bolt for tightness when they removed to cowl to clean the fins
The bolts do not spin out in 5 minutes, most take years to come loose and during that time oil would be seen weeping from the gasket face when the cover is removed for annual clean.
But Joe public thinks "service" is changing the oil once every 5 years and checking the tyre pressure.
I had one come in where two of the bolts had backed out so far that one had the head ground completely off and the other was rubbing so hard against the flywheel the engine could not turn over fast enough to start .
The owner did say it would loose all of the oil once or twice a season so he just kept on topping it up
SO who is at fault when the engine finally cracked ?
However it is a little difficult to fit properly and most push the tube on too far which causes it to leak.
This is a customer created problem.
The ones I fit don't leak
The factory can not control how the mower is used nor can it control what accessories the customer fits.
A dealer can advise that if you are going to bag a lot you really need to fit the FX engine with a better filter system
It is the purchaser who says "No I want the cheapest version "
Another case of Joe Public being too cheap for their own good.
My customer who first presented with the smooth bore used to get me to service his mower
Then he decided to do it himself.
It was not a problem when I was servicing the engine because I replaced the filter and checked the inside of the air tube for dust.
When he brought it in you could write your name in the dust.
However it has a FX cowl & filter now.
The Kohlers are the same
They do have a design problem but again when serviced properly it does not happen because a proper technician would check those bolt for tightness when they removed to cowl to clean the fins
The bolts do not spin out in 5 minutes, most take years to come loose and during that time oil would be seen weeping from the gasket face when the cover is removed for annual clean.
But Joe public thinks "service" is changing the oil once every 5 years and checking the tyre pressure.
I had one come in where two of the bolts had backed out so far that one had the head ground completely off and the other was rubbing so hard against the flywheel the engine could not turn over fast enough to start .
The owner did say it would loose all of the oil once or twice a season so he just kept on topping it up
SO who is at fault when the engine finally cracked ?
#206
3
350Rocket
If you've seen issues "caused by synthetic" it was caused by the owner thinking they didn't have to do anything for a long time because of it. They ran it low on oil and caused starvation on a steep hill most likely.
I disagreed with Chris about his comments about every courage being junk because that's been proven otherwise, but his comments on oil were basically true. Viscosity is viscosity. Use a recommended grade and the only reason not to use synthetic is $$ cost.
I ran it in my 81 Briggs and Stratton 3hp, no oil usage of problems until I bent the crank or rod hitting a hidden bolt in the grass. Now in a 99 6hp flathead Briggs, my 76 olds V8, and soon my Kohler courage V twin 23hp. Synthetic is not required for many engines but the statements you made about it I have never seen mentioned in hours of discussions on bobistheoilguy or in their FAQ. They have a lot of knowledgeable people who worked in developing oils.
3
350Rocket
I agree with everything you've said except for your comments on synthetic oil being "incompatible". It does not splash differently or flow differently or have different oil pressure. When cold it will be not as thick as conventional but that is only a benefit. My experience has been that most good mechanics don't understand the science behind oil. Read some FAQ's at bobistheoilguy.com or just keep doing what you're doing. But the statements you made about synthetic oil may damage your credibility in other areas.Because if the filter is fitted properly then it can do the job.
However it is a little difficult to fit properly and most push the tube on too far which causes it to leak.
This is a customer created problem.
The ones I fit don't leak
The factory can not control how the mower is used nor can it control what accessories the customer fits.
A dealer can advise that if you are going to bag a lot you really need to fit the FX engine with a better filter system
It is the purchaser who says "No I want the cheapest version "
Another case of Joe Public being too cheap for their own good.
My customer who first presented with the smooth bore used to get me to service his mower
Then he decided to do it himself.
It was not a problem when I was servicing the engine because I replaced the filter and checked the inside of the air tube for dust.
When he brought it in you could write your name in the dust.
However it has a FX cowl & filter now.
The Kohlers are the same
They do have a design problem but again when serviced properly it does not happen because a proper technician would check those bolt for tightness when they removed to cowl to clean the fins
The bolts do not spin out in 5 minutes, most take years to come loose and during that time oil would be seen weeping from the gasket face when the cover is removed for annual clean.
But Joe public thinks "service" is changing the oil once every 5 years and checking the tyre pressure.
I had one come in where two of the bolts had backed out so far that one had the head ground completely off and the other was rubbing so hard against the flywheel the engine could not turn over fast enough to start .
The owner did say it would loose all of the oil once or twice a season so he just kept on topping it up
SO who is at fault when the engine finally cracked ?
If you've seen issues "caused by synthetic" it was caused by the owner thinking they didn't have to do anything for a long time because of it. They ran it low on oil and caused starvation on a steep hill most likely.
I disagreed with Chris about his comments about every courage being junk because that's been proven otherwise, but his comments on oil were basically true. Viscosity is viscosity. Use a recommended grade and the only reason not to use synthetic is $$ cost.
I ran it in my 81 Briggs and Stratton 3hp, no oil usage of problems until I bent the crank or rod hitting a hidden bolt in the grass. Now in a 99 6hp flathead Briggs, my 76 olds V8, and soon my Kohler courage V twin 23hp. Synthetic is not required for many engines but the statements you made about it I have never seen mentioned in hours of discussions on bobistheoilguy or in their FAQ. They have a lot of knowledgeable people who worked in developing oils.
#207
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Rocket, you have to remember that everything you see or read on the internet is the absolute truth. That includes what Bert, you, bobistheoilguy, Taryl, myself and every other person who speaks what they feel is the truth based on their knowledge and why they are posting their information. Many only do it for publicly or monetary gain and many believe everything they read. I totally agree with what Bert says about synthetic oil and don’t agree with you or bobistheoilguy. Everyone has to decide who to believe, and then make their own decisions as to what direction they wish to proceed.
#208
3
350Rocket
3
350Rocket
Exactly!Rocket, you have to remember that everything you see or read on the internet is the absolute truth. That includes what Bert, you, bobistheoilguy, Taryl, myself and every other person who speaks what they feel is the truth based on their knowledge and why they are posting their information. Many only do it for publicly or monetary gain and many believe everything they read. I totally agree with what Bert says about synthetic oil and don’t agree with you or bobistheoilguy. Everyone has to decide who to believe, and then make their own decisions as to what direction they wish to proceed.
#209
3
350Rocket
3
350Rocket
I agree with your first sentence 100%. That's why I spent (or wasted) so much time researching the subject but at least now when I read a statement like "synthetic oil splashes differently" I know it to be false.
#210
3
350Rocket
3
350Rocket
I will use full synthetic in my Kohler because it's cheap insurance on a hard worker engine and there is no downside to it. Mowing downhill with synthetic will never cause a failure, ever. The same people that make statements like that usually still think all Quaker state caused sludge etc
#211
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
You believe what you want, but a thinner fluid will splash differently than a thicker fluid. I don’t need to research anything to prove that. As stated, everyone will have to make their own decision.
#212
3
350Rocket
3
350Rocket
It's not thinner except when cold. You would have to research that to know it though.You believe what you want, but a thinner fluid will splash differently than a thicker fluid. I don’t need to research anything to prove that. As stated, everyone will have to make their own decision.
#213
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Not worth my time to “research“ a I’m starter than you contest. Going to look for threads where members need help.
#214
3
350Rocket
3
350Rocket
Not trying to personally attack, was just trying to help dispel the myths.Not worth my time to “research“ a I’m starter than you contest. Going to look for threads where members need help.
#215
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
And there in lies one of the problems
My L300 was designed to run on 20W 50
Latter versions were designed to run on 10w40
If I put 10W40 in this engine now it leaks past everything when cold
And you are also wrong about splashing.
Synthetics & semi synthetics have lower surface tensions so they can wet surfaces better
In the advertising B S they call it "magnetic" .
Wetting the surfaces allows for much better boundry lubrication like you have on the upper & lower crank bushes .
Synthetics splash with smaller droplets because of the lower surface tension.
THis has two effects on splash lube
1) the oil mist travels further so you get more oil up into rocker areas particularly on vertical cylinders
2) closer regions like the top bush get less oil volume because the drops that hit the cases then drip down to retentions wells around things like the upper crank bush are smaller.
Not a problem with a full pressure feed engine but a big problem with full splash.
You are perfectly entitled to use whatever oil you like.'It is your mower & your money
However what has to be empathised is synthetics are not a magic bullet like all of the deciples preach.
And this is what has to get countered .
People like to think they are smarter than the person next door & always up to date with all the modern trends & technologies.
However what they read is often wrong .
They believe this and then set off preaching this factually incorrect religion and by shear volume myth become fact.
The easy way to tell what is BS from what it truth is testimonials
The more testimonials you see the more the "whatever" is an act of faith and not fact .
My formal training was in the applied sciences where nothing is considered to be 100% right , just the best description / explaination that we have at the time and for that to be accepted it has to be reliably repeatable.
Just think of all of the trash that has sucked people in over the years
How many times have you seen some magic goop poured into an engine , run for 5 minutes then the sump plug removed & that vehicle do X laps of a circuit.
Now what people don't know is the engines were specially built to do that and X+1 = BANG .
Then there was spark enhansers, all going to double you gas mileage ( they didn't )
And of course the magic foam filters that we were shown gave more power & better milage, till the bores polished smooth in 1/2 the miles that a paper one would have run.
And when I was young, oil coolers were the go to for more power, better milage less engine wear , etc, etc, etc ( They didn't )
People used to throw virgins into volcanos to appease the volcano god because they lacked the basic scientific knowledge to understand geology and if you asked them they knew they were right because it worked ( well most of time ) .
People blindly believe "influencers" because they lack the education needed to understand that what is being preached is toss or are just plain old too lazy to think about it .
The plain truth of it is mower engines are so basic that the oil used will make little difference provided it is within the operating viscosities.
Some might work marginally better than others but if it was not designed to use the higher qualities of the superiour oils then using the superiour oils will do nothing other than to cost more money.
The refineries set about to make synthetic oils economically way back in the 70's during the oil crisis.
They could make oil from both gas & forest products but it was way too expensive compared to mineral oil.
We still make terpentine from oil & from leaves which is why the bottles will say "mineral terpentine " or "Vegetable Terpentine" .
The latter is about 20 times more expensive than the former.
Oil companies spent a fortune trying to develop alternatives to Middle East oil and we ended up with synthetic oil
However it is more expensive so they have to talk up it's "miracle" properties.
The oil companies also make a much larger profit margin on synthetic oil so right now they are pushing it hard.
In the same mannar as spark plug makers are trying to convince us that exotic material spark plugs will work miracles ( they don't )
In parallel but not directly connected to the synthetic oil was the EPA's mandate about emissions during start up
In order to reduce this, engines have to fire on the very first cylinder that comes onto compression.
However the viscous drag of the old thick oils slowed the engines down sufficiently to prevent this happening till the engine had built up enough momentum.
The answer to this was thinner & lighter oils that put a lot less load on the engine.
This in turn was enabled by real time computer control over the dimensions of engine parts plus advances in metallurgy that allowed much tighter controls over the raw materials specifications .
But Bob the Oil guy will tell you all of this is because he uses a different oil and the feeble minded believe this without question.
My L300 was designed to run on 20W 50
Latter versions were designed to run on 10w40
If I put 10W40 in this engine now it leaks past everything when cold
And you are also wrong about splashing.
Synthetics & semi synthetics have lower surface tensions so they can wet surfaces better
In the advertising B S they call it "magnetic" .
Wetting the surfaces allows for much better boundry lubrication like you have on the upper & lower crank bushes .
Synthetics splash with smaller droplets because of the lower surface tension.
THis has two effects on splash lube
1) the oil mist travels further so you get more oil up into rocker areas particularly on vertical cylinders
2) closer regions like the top bush get less oil volume because the drops that hit the cases then drip down to retentions wells around things like the upper crank bush are smaller.
Not a problem with a full pressure feed engine but a big problem with full splash.
You are perfectly entitled to use whatever oil you like.'It is your mower & your money
However what has to be empathised is synthetics are not a magic bullet like all of the deciples preach.
And this is what has to get countered .
People like to think they are smarter than the person next door & always up to date with all the modern trends & technologies.
However what they read is often wrong .
They believe this and then set off preaching this factually incorrect religion and by shear volume myth become fact.
The easy way to tell what is BS from what it truth is testimonials
The more testimonials you see the more the "whatever" is an act of faith and not fact .
My formal training was in the applied sciences where nothing is considered to be 100% right , just the best description / explaination that we have at the time and for that to be accepted it has to be reliably repeatable.
Just think of all of the trash that has sucked people in over the years
How many times have you seen some magic goop poured into an engine , run for 5 minutes then the sump plug removed & that vehicle do X laps of a circuit.
Now what people don't know is the engines were specially built to do that and X+1 = BANG .
Then there was spark enhansers, all going to double you gas mileage ( they didn't )
And of course the magic foam filters that we were shown gave more power & better milage, till the bores polished smooth in 1/2 the miles that a paper one would have run.
And when I was young, oil coolers were the go to for more power, better milage less engine wear , etc, etc, etc ( They didn't )
People used to throw virgins into volcanos to appease the volcano god because they lacked the basic scientific knowledge to understand geology and if you asked them they knew they were right because it worked ( well most of time ) .
People blindly believe "influencers" because they lack the education needed to understand that what is being preached is toss or are just plain old too lazy to think about it .
The plain truth of it is mower engines are so basic that the oil used will make little difference provided it is within the operating viscosities.
Some might work marginally better than others but if it was not designed to use the higher qualities of the superiour oils then using the superiour oils will do nothing other than to cost more money.
The refineries set about to make synthetic oils economically way back in the 70's during the oil crisis.
They could make oil from both gas & forest products but it was way too expensive compared to mineral oil.
We still make terpentine from oil & from leaves which is why the bottles will say "mineral terpentine " or "Vegetable Terpentine" .
The latter is about 20 times more expensive than the former.
Oil companies spent a fortune trying to develop alternatives to Middle East oil and we ended up with synthetic oil
However it is more expensive so they have to talk up it's "miracle" properties.
The oil companies also make a much larger profit margin on synthetic oil so right now they are pushing it hard.
In the same mannar as spark plug makers are trying to convince us that exotic material spark plugs will work miracles ( they don't )
In parallel but not directly connected to the synthetic oil was the EPA's mandate about emissions during start up
In order to reduce this, engines have to fire on the very first cylinder that comes onto compression.
However the viscous drag of the old thick oils slowed the engines down sufficiently to prevent this happening till the engine had built up enough momentum.
The answer to this was thinner & lighter oils that put a lot less load on the engine.
This in turn was enabled by real time computer control over the dimensions of engine parts plus advances in metallurgy that allowed much tighter controls over the raw materials specifications .
But Bob the Oil guy will tell you all of this is because he uses a different oil and the feeble minded believe this without question.
#216
3
350Rocket
3
350Rocket
This chart for your particular engine is all you really need to know about oil choice. Note the "including synthetics".
Attachments
#217
H
hlw49
That would be the single cylinder this one is a twin. Twin seems to be a good engine loud but good.
H
hlw49
When you have cracked engine cases on engines with very few hours it has nothing with as to how well a engine been maintained. This seems to be the problim on the Kohler courage engine. I really don't know what you need to do prevent this from happening. Maybe its the way it is operated, low RPMs??? maybe someone has a better idea.
That would be the single cylinder this one is a twin. Twin seems to be a good engine loud but good.
#219
B
BGS Mex
B
BGS Mex
I agree with most of what you are saying; except; Who would ever guess that these cover bolts would come loose? It would be fine if there was a "Crystal ball" that we could look at to tell us. I guess I must be one of those "dull" people, even 'tho I have had a Canadian Mechanics liscence for over 35 years!Because if the filter is fitted properly then it can do the job.
However it is a little difficult to fit properly and most push the tube on too far which causes it to leak.
This is a customer created problem.
The ones I fit don't leak
The factory can not control how the mower is used nor can it control what accessories the customer fits.
A dealer can advise that if you are going to bag a lot you really need to fit the FX engine with a better filter system
It is the purchaser who says "No I want the cheapest version "
Another case of Joe Public being too cheap for their own good.
My customer who first presented with the smooth bore used to get me to service his mower
Then he decided to do it himself.
It was not a problem when I was servicing the engine because I replaced the filter and checked the inside of the air tube for dust.
When he brought it in you could write your name in the dust.
However it has a FX cowl & filter now.
The Kohlers are the same
They do have a design problem but again when serviced properly it does not happen because a proper technician would check those bolt for tightness when they removed to cowl to clean the fins
The bolts do not spin out in 5 minutes, most take years to come loose and during that time oil would be seen weeping from the gasket face when the cover is removed for annual clean.
But Joe public thinks "service" is changing the oil once every 5 years and checking the tyre pressure.
I had one come in where two of the bolts had backed out so far that one had the head ground completely off and the other was rubbing so hard against the flywheel the engine could not turn over fast enough to start .
The owner did say it would loose all of the oil once or twice a season so he just kept on topping it up
SO who is at fault when the engine finally cracked ?