GOODBYE TO ELECTRIC

[Peva]

I bought the 30" Ryobi Z30Li this spring. Comes with two 80-volt 10Ah Li-ion suitcase batteries.

They have 30", 42", and 54" models. (They also have steering wheel tractor equivalents in the same 3 deck sizes at same prices as the ZTs. As someone else mentioned, this spring they dropped the price of all 3 models $2000, so prices are:
• Z30Li @$2999 (comes with two 80-volt batteries)
• Z42Li @$3999 (comes with two 80-volt batteries + two 40-volt batteries)
• Z54Li @$4999 (comes with three 80-volt batteries + four 40-volt batteries)

Turning and travel speed are single joystick controlled vs. lap bars. This is my first zero turn, so I have no experience to compare joy stick to lap bars. There was a learning curve on the joy stick, but by the 3rd mowing, I really had the hang of it - I'm pretty efficient with it now, and it is now 2nd nature.

One nice feature: The control algorithm automatically goes into an anti-burn-turn mode whenever you force it to a tight turn, as in doing a 180° for the next row. The firmware forces both wheels to keep turning - typically one moving forward, the other in reverse to varying degrees, *never* allowing it to spin around one stopped rear wheel. It's not a useless gimmick - it works extremely well - you can quickly and easily fine tune your turn with precise movement of the joystick to end up perfectly lined up to begin the next row - part of the learning curve, but it quickly becomes quite natural. Again, the algorithm continuously keeps both wheels independently moving either forwards or backwards as needed to control the effective radius of your turn, while never allowing a true zero (burn) turn. You have to experience it to appreciate it.

Someone mentioned the electricity for battery charging costing as much or more than gas for an IC mower. Not true - it's a *fraction* of the cost electricity vs. gas - see the video I linked at the end of this post in which a guy actually measured it.

I don't ever see myself getting an EV, but electric mowers for me make sense.

As also mentioned by others, the batteries are guaranteed for 5 years (only 3 years if you fail to register the mower/batteries with Ryobi).

I'm really liking it - much quicker than my 21" electric Kobalt (Lowes) self-propelled walk-behind. At 73 years old, I recently developed a back problem and could no longer handle the walking with a walk-behind. I took a gamble with the Ryobi zero-turn rider, and it causes zero back pain, and I get my approx. 1/3 acre yard cut in 45 to 50 minutes rather than 2 to 2-1/2 hours with the walk behind.

I run my two (simultaneously installed) batteries down to between 30 and 50% of charge in a complete mow depending on how thick the grass is each time. I always run blades at highest speed for best cut and mulching quality (3 blade speeds are selectable). I could get slightly less battery discharge by using lower blade speed, but I put a high priority on grass lift and quality of cut. While the 2 suitcase batteries easily lift out if needed, they generally stay in the mower all the time - there's a charging port built into the side of the mower.

I did purchase the optional double-blade kit - complete set of 4 blades (2 blades x 2 spindles) @$41. Does a very good quality of cut and mulching (I don't bag). The double-blade kits are readily available for the 3 different sizes of mowers. I'm really glad to have that option. (4-blade set for 42" @$70; 6- blade set for 54" @$63)

I'll figure on having to get new batteries maybe at 6 years (again: guaranteed for 5). I probably won't be happy at the price of replacement batteries (currently at $900 each!), assuming they are available (throw-away mower?). But at 73 y.o., how much longer will I be cutting the grass? Seriously! ‍

OK - comparing cost for electricity to charge a Ryobi to cost of fuel for a gas or diesel:
In the below video, to cut his 3-1/2 acres, the guy charged the two 80-volt 10Ah plus 40-volt 12Ah batteries of the 42" Ryobi Z42Li from 0% to 100% charge (more than enough to cut his 3-1/2 acres) for a total cost of $0.50 at a rate of 22¢/kWh. He said it used $60 in diesel @a little over $6 per gallon to cut the same 3-1/2 acres with his 60" diesel mower. Lets conservatively say that it would take $25 of gas (@around $3/gallon) with a gas mower. In most places, electricity runs around 10 to 18¢/kWh, lets say 15¢/kWh, so that would be around 35¢ for the charge.

So that's conservatively roughly $25 in gas compared to 35¢ in electricity - a factor of 70 times more for the gas than electricity.

35¢ vs. >$25 to cut 3-1/2 acres.

The video (the guy mis-speaks a couple of times saying "kW" when he should have said "kWh" - but he does the math correctly):

 

[GrumpyCat]

Country Clipper used to be about the only zero turn with joystick. They made one for Snapper for a year or two long ago. My Country Clipper dealer said most with no twin stick zero turn experience (no muscle memory) preferred the joystick. Country Clipper made twin stick as well, same price either way. I have a 42" Country Clipper Avenue with joystick and 18HP Kawasaki engine.

Last week one day of 205 miles in my Tesla Model Y Long Range required 68.9 kWh to charge back to the level I started. At 10¢/kWh that is $6.89. At $2.999/gallon I would have to get 89 MPG to equal that cost/mile.

Haven't bothered for years but used to have a Kill-A-Watt inline with my EGo charger. Cost about 8¢ for electricity to mow my 1/3rd acre with a 21" SP mulcher.

$60 of diesel to mow 3.5 acres? 10 gallons? That doesn't sound right.

 

[Peva]

Country Clipper used to be about the only zero turn with joystick. They made one for Snapper for a year or two long ago. My Country Clipper dealer said most with no twin stick zero turn experience (no muscle memory) preferred the joystick. Country Clipper made twin stick as well, same price either way. I have a 42" Country Clipper Avenue with joystick and 18HP Kawasaki engine.

Last week one day of 205 miles in my Tesla Model Y Long Range required 68.9 kWh to charge back to the level I started. At 10¢/kWh that is $6.89. At $2.999/gallon I would have to get 89 MPG to equal that cost/mile.

Haven't bothered for years but used to have a Kill-A-Watt inline with my EGo charger. Cost about 8¢ for electricity to mow my 1/3rd acre with a 21" SP mulcher.

$60 of diesel to mow 3.5 acres? 10 gallons? That doesn't sound right.

"$60 of diesel to mow 3.5 acres? 10 gallons? That doesn't sound right."

I wondered about that too. He did say that was a 60" mower, and implied that the weight might drive the fuel usage up. Not sure if that's true or not. More weight would be more than offset by wider cut => more efficiency?

Anyway - I'm no expert, but that's why I based my gasoline estimate at $25. ($25 @$3.15/gallon works out to about 8 gallons.) That may also be on the high side. What do you think would be a reasonable generic gallons of gasoline for 3.5 acres?

I'm thinking of creating a Ryobi ZT Lithium-ion review thread and tweaking my post to use for the OP (plus there's a pretty good review article by protoolreviews.com that I'd link).

 

[GearHead36]

I think we're seeing here another example of electric advocates overestimating the cost savings. $0.10/KWH? I paid $0.11/KWH 5 yrs ago, and I was getting mine from TVA, which has some of the cheapest electricity in the country. And $60 of diesel to mow 3 acres? That sounds high, too. Day-to-day operating costs will be less for electric. There's no doubt on that. But there's more to TCO (total cost of ownership) than the cost of "fuel".

For gas mowers:
- gas
- oil
- maintenance
- repairs
- depreciation

For electric:
- electricity
- battery replacements
- maintenance
- repairs
- depreciation

I'm guessing that, except for oil changes, maintenance and repairs will be similar on both. Gas will be the dominant cost for a gas mower. Battery replacements will be the dominant costs for electric. The example above cites $900 batteries, and the mower uses 2 or 3 of them. So we're talking about $1800 to $2700 worth of batteries every 5-6 yrs. Is that more than the cost of 5-6 yrs worth of fuel for a gas mower? I don't know, but it certainly brings the costs closer. Personally, even if the costs are the same, I'd prefer the higher day-to-day costs over the HUGE hit of battery replacements.

Depreciation is not negligible either. A 10 yr old gas mower, if properly cared for, will work about as well as new. My push mower is 13 yrs old, my ZTR is 8 yrs old. Both work like new. Battery powered mower technology is still developing at a fairly fast pace. A 10 yr old battery mower is almost worthless.

I'm not against electric. Heck, I'm an electrical engineer. Electric has a lot of advantages, but let's not overstate them.

 

[Peva]

I think we're seeing here another example of electric advocates overestimating the cost savings. $0.10/KWH? I paid $0.11/KWH 5 yrs ago, and I was getting mine from TVA, which has some of the cheapest electricity in the country. And $60 of diesel to mow 3 acres? That sounds high, too. Day-to-day operating costs will be less for electric. There's no doubt on that. But there's more to TCO (total cost of ownership) than the cost of "fuel".

For gas mowers:
- gas
- oil
- maintenance
- repairs
- depreciation

For electric:
- electricity
- battery replacements
- maintenance
- repairs
- depreciation

I'm guessing that, except for oil changes, maintenance and repairs will be similar on both. Gas will be the dominant cost for a gas mower. Battery replacements will be the dominant costs for electric. The example above cites $900 batteries, and the mower uses 2 or 3 of them. So we're talking about $1800 to $2700 worth of batteries every 5-6 yrs. Is that more than the cost of 5-6 yrs worth of fuel for a gas mower? I don't know, but it certainly brings the costs closer. Personally, even if the costs are the same, I'd prefer the higher day-to-day costs over the HUGE hit of battery replacements.

Depreciation is not negligible either. A 10 yr old gas mower, if properly cared for, will work about as well as new. My push mower is 13 yrs old, my ZTR is 8 yrs old. Both work like new. Battery powered mower technology is still developing at a fairly fast pace. A 10 yr old battery mower is almost worthless.

I'm not against electric. Heck, I'm an electrical engineer. Electric has a lot of advantages, but let's not overstate them.

We have a lot in common - I'm an electrical/electronics engineer, and I'm one of the guys on car enthusiast forums arguing against EV mandates and pointing out the unachievable grid demands and every other reason why we are nowhere near ready to transition.

I wasn't arguing in terms of TCO, though i did mention expecting battery replacement in around 6 years at $900 x 2 for my particular Ryobi mower. I was addressing an earlier post that made it sound like cost of gasoline was less than cost of electrons to cut the same yard.

I used 15¢/kWh for my spitball comparison. I'm guessing that the guy in the video (2 years ago) lives in California since he was talking about diesel at over $6/gallon and electricity at 22¢/kWh (bless his heart!).

So let's put the thumb on the scale to ridiculously favor the use of gas vs. electricity for the mower: Let's say it cost $8 in gasoline to cut 3-1/2 acres, and the cost of electricity is 25¢/kWh. The comparison then becomes $8 in gas vs. about 60¢ for electricity a 13 to 1 ratio.

So I think we're in violent agreement on most everything.

The electric mower is a good solution for me because I'm very much a DIYer, **BUT** am 73 years old with a bad back (only mower maintenance is sharpening/swapping blades), and I face the very likely cost of battery replacement or new lawnmower (or contracting out my lawn maintenance) at close to 80 years old with eyes wide open.

I won't get into how I'm dealing with peripheral preening (weedeating and a small amount of use of the push mower (Kobalt electric)) - I'll just say I'm having to be creative. I'm trying not to be a couch potato. I haven't yet told anybody "Get off my lawn!!", but that could happen any day now.

 

[GrumpyCat]

Without experience you assume batteries have to be replaced every 3 years. You assume the cellphone/laptop model applies. Ryobi has a 5 year battery warranty for simply clicking on their website. EGo too on the 10 Ah.

Am still using my 2016 EGo 7.5Ah battery, and 2.0 Ah. Many others have not got that kind of service but I have other EGo batteries nearly as old.

Maintenance has consisted of sharpening the blade, replacing the trimmer string. No filters, no belts, no oil.

 

[Peva]

Without experience you assume batteries have to be replaced every 3 years. You assume the cellphone/laptop model applies. Ryobi has a 5 year battery warranty for simply clicking on their website. EGo too on the 10 Ah.

Am still using my 2016 EGo 7.5Ah battery, and 2.0 Ah. Many others have not got that kind of service but I have other EGo batteries nearly as old.

Maintenance has consisted of sharpening the blade, replacing the trimmer string. No filters, no belts, no oil.

I'm still using the original 80-volt 6Ah battery on my Kobalt self propelled walk-behind that I bought 6 years ago. I bought 2 gray market ("open box") OEM batteries as spares from highly-rated sellers on ebay at half the price of buying new ones through Lowes. (Chinese-branded knock offs are available on Amazon and ebay, but I trust them less than open box OEMs off of ebay - the Kobalt batteries have some premium cells with very high current capability - I couldn't get straight answers on cell model number or current ratings from Amazon sellers, and not sure I'd believe them if they told me.)

I rotate the 3 batteries equally through normal usage - no noticeable degradation of any of the 3 so far.

 

[GearHead36]

So I think we're in violent agreement on most everything.

Except you want to compare costs, and then use the one category ("fuel") that most favors electric over gas, while ignoring the biggest cost of electric... battery replacements. And really... operating costs aren't even a consideration to me. Whether it costs a few dollars or a few cents per mow isn't critical. Now admittedly, if it cost me $60 per mow, as the guy in the video claims, that would be significant. Purchase price is important. Repairs (if expensive) could be important. I'm a little concerned with the EFI on my ZTR. If it breaks, the repair could be pricey. The cost of replacing batteries is a big concern. I looked up the Ryobi mower from the video. The orange big box store has it for $7000, and are proud to state that it includes $5000 worth of batteries and charger. Just the batteries and charger are over double what I have invested in my ZTR. I DID get it used for a good price.* And repairs on an electric? How many shops can repair them? For me, though, I want a mower that mows my lawn with the greatest speed and comfort. My yard has a lot of bumps, obstacles, and a few slopes & hills. My ZTR has large tires, a suspension seat, a steering wheel and ROPS (which helps on slopes & hills), and a high top speed (almost double that of a residential mower). This is a combination of features that is almost perfect for my yard, and allows me to mow more quickly with more comfort than any electric mower.

* For me, being able to get a used mower at a good price is appealing, and you have a much better chance of getting such a mower if it's gas. My ZTR is a commercial unit that sold for $9000 new. I got it for $2000 because it needed work. I put about $300 into it, and it runs and mows like new. I don't think that any electric mower can match its capabilities, and certainly anything available for under $3000, even used, will be FAR worse.

Again I say, electric has a lot of advantages, but let's not overstate them. I want to be able to choose a mower based on my needs, not some agenda being pushed by the government. Overstating the advantages of electric is pushing an agenda.

 

[Peva]

Except you want to compare costs, and then use the one category ("fuel") that most favors electric over gas, while ignoring the biggest cost of electric... battery replacements. And really... operating costs aren't even a consideration to me. Whether it costs a few dollars or a few cents per mow isn't critical. Now admittedly, if it cost me $60 per mow, as the guy in the video claims, that would be significant. Purchase price is important. Repairs (if expensive) could be important. I'm a little concerned with the EFI on my ZTR. If it breaks, the repair could be pricey. The cost of replacing batteries is a big concern. I looked up the Ryobi mower from the video. The orange big box store has it for $7000, and are proud to state that it includes $5000 worth of batteries and charger. Just the batteries and charger are over double what I have invested in my ZTR. I DID get it used for a good price.* And repairs on an electric? How many shops can repair them? For me, though, I want a mower that mows my lawn with the greatest speed and comfort. My yard has a lot of bumps, obstacles, and a few slopes & hills. My ZTR has large tires, a suspension seat, a steering wheel and ROPS (which helps on slopes & hills), and a high top speed (almost double that of a residential mower). This is a combination of features that is almost perfect for my yard, and allows me to mow more quickly with more comfort than any electric mower.

* For me, being able to get a used mower at a good price is appealing, and you have a much better chance of getting such a mower if it's gas. My ZTR is a commercial unit that sold for $9000 new. I got it for $2000 because it needed work. I put about $300 into it, and it runs and mows like new. I don't think that any electric mower can match its capabilities, and certainly anything available for under $3000, even used, will be FAR worse.

Again I say, electric has a lot of advantages, but let's not overstate them. I want to be able to choose a mower based on my needs, not some agenda being pushed by the government. Overstating the advantages of electric is pushing an agenda.

??

I didn't ignore anything. I never said to look at electricity and gasoline cost and don't look at anything else. I focused on that because someone else had commented on that. You might want to re-read what I said. I mentioned cost of batteries more than once. I suggested (twice) that they might be considered throw away lawn mowers in that if the batteries go bad after 6 or 7 years, you might just get a new mower with as much as the batteries cost. I stated that I am against EV mandates for several reasons, including that no way the grid will handle it.

By the way - I did see today that the prices are back up. They had dropped the prices $2000 as I had mentioned. Where I said the prices are $2999, $3999, and $4999 for 40", 42", and 54" respectively, they are now back up to $4999, $5999, and $6999. Yikes!

 

[GearHead36]

I didn't ignore anything. I never said to look at electricity and gasoline cost and don't look at anything else. I focused on that because soneone else had commented on that. You might want to re-read what I said. I mentioned cost of batteries more than once. I suggested (twice) that they might be considered throw away lawn mowers in that if the batteries go bad after 6 or 7 years, you might just get a new mower with as much as the batteries cost. I stated that I am against EV mandates for several reasons, including that no way the grid will handle it.

By the way - I did see today that the prices are back up. They had dropped the prices $2000 as I had mentioned. WHERE I said the prices are $2999, $3999, and $4999 for 40", 42", and 54" respectively, they are now back up to $4999, $5999, and $6999. Yikes!

Ok, you didn't totally ignore the other costs, but you focused on "fuel", which, to me, is the least significant cost. I estimate that it costs me $5 per mow. If that went to zero, that wouldn't affect my opinion on what I wanted.

A $2000 price increase? Wow!