safety switch ohms out, but bad voltage readings

rigoletto said:
ok, guys, I will try my best to follow the diagram I have (scanned) and follow the colors. I will also check the metal strips, like was mentioned. Sheesh, what a pain, but gotta do it,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I wish we had consensus on to use light or multi meter. Light is easier. I appreciate your helps. I wil let yous know what happens.
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Nothing wrong with using a light, The advantages of the meter it tells you the amount of voltage. I will use a test light when I don't have a meter and you can do a lot with a test light. Don't let yourself jump around on different cirricts, only one at a time. Take your time, relax, and enjoy what you are doing and you will have that good feeling when you find the problem. :thumbsup: It helps me to get a good rock station on the radio as I work. Just repaired a bad ETC switch on a off road bike this pass week end which took a fair amount of time finding.
 
Tried to contact my service rep, but he is off this week. Talked to another rep, who I don't have a lot of faith in, and he can find no machines with model number 13A667S188. This is going to make this more difficult. I'm going to call the rep I trust on Monday and give him a try. I do have one question though, do you have a 3 or 4 post solenoid? Reading the posts since I was gone, it is starting to sound like loose ground or corroded connection. As Reynoldston and ILengine said, you have to take your time and go slow, at this point you need to check every connection. My opinion on test lights vs VOM, I use a test light to trace current flow and then the VOM to test components. They are both a valuable part of my tool box.
 
Yep,
A starter solenoid is just another common old garden variety relay and it might help you to think of it this way.
The only difference is how many amps it can carry, Most are rated around 600 A to 1000 A.
So it has two circuits, a trigger with a + & - and a switched or slave circuit ( power to the starter ).
Old school was the earth them to the case so you only saw 1 control terminal .
New school is to insulate the case & provide a seperate - terminal.
Most mowers run an interupt circuit from the start position on the starter switch thourgh a pile of normally open switches ( safety ) to the + trigger on the solenoid.
The down side of this is there is a long hot wire with plenty of opportunities of getting a hole in it and letting the smoke out.
Some smartie realised you could do the exact same thing with an earth wire to the - side of the solenoid trigger thus reducing the chances of loosing all the smoke .

Working on the theory that nothing simple works so well it can not be made better by making it more complicated some started using relays to control the + side of the solenoid trigger and some use relays to control the - side of the solenoid and just to be more difficult to fix others run a combination of both.
Another variation runs the hot wire to the solenoid trigger through a series of relays and each one of these is individually wired to the safety switches
And here is here you get unexplained weird readings on your meter and why I like pulling or isolating each & every bit, one at a time till I find the culprit.
 
bertsmobile1 said:
Yep,
A starter solenoid is just another common old garden variety relay and it might help you to think of it this way.
The only difference is how many amps it can carry, Most are rated around 600 A to 1000 A.
So it has two circuits, a trigger with a + & - and a switched or slave circuit ( power to the starter ).
Old school was the earth them to the case so you only saw 1 control terminal .
New school is to insulate the case & provide a seperate - terminal.
Most mowers run an interupt circuit from the start position on the starter switch thourgh a pile of normally open switches ( safety ) to the + trigger on the solenoid.
The down side of this is there is a long hot wire with plenty of opportunities of getting a hole in it and letting the smoke out.
Some smartie realised you could do the exact same thing with an earth wire to the - side of the solenoid trigger thus reducing the chances of loosing all the smoke .

Working on the theory that nothing simple works so well it can not be made better by making it more complicated some started using relays to control the + side of the solenoid trigger and some use relays to control the - side of the solenoid and just to be more difficult to fix others run a combination of both.
Another variation runs the hot wire to the solenoid trigger through a series of relays and each one of these is individually wired to the safety switches
And here is here you get unexplained weird readings on your meter and why I like pulling or isolating each & every bit, one at a time till I find the culprit.
Click to expand...

I see what you are saying here. The manufactures are changing all the time, year to year and model to model. ( I like pulling or isolating each & every bit, one at a time till I find the culprit). This is the reason you need that road map (wiring diagram) It will have the wires colored or numbered and show you what switches and relays to look for and what they do. For some reason it seem to me everyone should know what wire goes to where ever on every mower by just looking at it. I will be will it bet that no one on this forum can do so. Every so often I will get a mower in my shop that a person that they think they know everything and will rewire things into a big mess.
 
reynoldston said:
I see what you are saying here. The manufactures are changing all the time, year to year and model to model. ( I like pulling or isolating each & every bit, one at a time till I find the culprit). This is the reason you need that road map (wiring diagram) It will have the wires colored or numbered and show you what switches and relays to look for and what they do. For some reason it seem to me everyone should know what wire goes to where ever on every mower by just looking at it. I will be will it bet that no one on this forum can do so. Every so often I will get a mower in my shop that a person that they think they know everything and will rewire things into a big mess.
Click to expand...

Yep,
Don't you just love em
Then they get a $ 200 bill because they ended up shoving 12V down the earth line to the ignition module when trying to bypass the seat switch so they can get off without the blades stopping
The best one had bypassed the brake switch and the reverse PTO cut out then had attempted to bypass the seat switch because he was too cheap to bring the mower in for service and it was flattening the battery.
The actual problem with flattening batteries was the earth wire on the rectifryer mounted in the plastic cowl had fallen out.
So he had managed to fry the rectifier, the ignition module (intergrated with coil ) & electric PTO . Four hours to diagnose all of the problems & $ 950 in parts plus another 2 hours to fit them. I suggested a new replacement engine which was only $ 300 more expensive. Called me every name under the sun then found out what the franchised dealers wanted for the same job & came back cap in one hand cash in the other.

As for all the changes you can thank your own legal system which point blank refuse to allocate any blame to the operator for any injuries sustained on or about the machine no matter how negligent the operator was.
Some mowers now come out with all black wires in the loom because with colour coded wires it was too easy for owners to bypass the safety circuits and this was the Manufactureres fault because the wires being colour coded and this colour series being almost universal made it too easy for the idiots.
Computer chip wiring is on its way so the tractor will know if you have tampered with the wiring and will shut down, for good.
 
Computer chip wiring is on its way so the tractor will know if you have tampered with the wiring and will shut down, for good.


That is a new one on me, what is computer chip wiring? It sure sounds like it will be over my skills.
 
reynoldston said:
Computer chip wiring is on its way so the tractor will know if you have tampered with the wiring and will shut down, for good.


That is a new one on me, what is computer chip wiring? It sure sounds like it will be over my skills.
Click to expand...
Piezo electric cells replace all of the old open/close switches. They work basically like a scale, the harder that are closed the more voltage the make .
All the different voltages from a set of piezo "switches" will come back to a computer chip which will open & close relays according to the signal it receives .
So you will sit on the seat. it will measure your weight and use it as a reference so if your 3 YO niece trys to start the mower it won't start, if you fall off it will stop.
If a customer trys to bypass a switch it will know & shut down. Just like with cars, service agants wil have to hook up their authorization chip or they won't be able to work on the machine.
The big name brands love this idea because they can restrict repairs exclusively to their dealership.
All this is a simple add on to EFI controller and anti pollution idiocy will make all mowers have efi by the end of the decade if not sooner.
 
bertsmobile1 said:
Piezo electric cells replace all of the old open/close switches. They work basically like a scale, the harder that are closed the more voltage the make .
All the different voltages from a set of piezo "switches" will come back to a computer chip which will open & close relays according to the signal it receives .
So you will sit on the seat. it will measure your weight and use it as a reference so if your 3 YO niece trys to start the mower it won't start, if you fall off it will stop.
If a customer trys to bypass a switch it will know & shut down. Just like with cars, service agants wil have to hook up their authorization chip or they won't be able to work on the machine.
The big name brands love this idea because they can restrict repairs exclusively to their dealership.
All this is a simple add on to EFI controller and anti pollution idiocy will make all mowers have efi by the end of the decade if not sooner.
Click to expand...

I hate to say this but this sounds like a good thing to me. Just look at how superior the electronics are in the newer cars over the old ones. The biggest down fall I can see is the prices of new mowers getting too high for the average person. Its a good thing to keep going forward, but just think about it the basic running of the engine hasn't changed since the early 1900's only design has.
 
reynoldston said:
I hate to say this but this sounds like a good thing to me. Just look at how superior the electronics are in the newer cars over the old ones. The biggest down fall I can see is the prices of new mowers getting too high for the average person. Its a good thing to keep going forward, but just think about it the basic running of the engine hasn't changed since the early 1900's only design has.
Click to expand...

like every thing else , there is good & bad points.
Firstly as the man I bought this service run off used to say "It's a mower Trev not a rocket ship".
If truth in labeling laws applied to mowers all of the safety features should be called "Idiot moron self harm prevention devices"
And not one of them actually makes cutting the grass , easier , quicker or better.
Contractors will be dissadvantaged no end because a single failed device will render their equipment inoperable Thus to make up the down time they will have to take shortcuts.
Owners will be at the mercy of the OEM's so when they want your machine to the obsolete, the chip just stops working .
Parents / grandparens will no longer be able to pop the child on the lap and have some mutual bonding - fun mowing the lawn.
Third parts ( no distributor aligned ) repairers , like my self will be unable to service modern mowers and in particular do field services.
I charge $ 60.00/hr with no call out fee, the JD man charges $ 90.00/hr + $ 90.00 call out, the MTD dealer charges $ 120.00 / hr and will not do service calls same with the local Husqvarna agent.
Contract lawn care operators will be limited to using whatever equipment that has a close handy dealer and prices will have to reflect this.


OTOH they should be more reliable, operate a bit cleaner and get substantially better fuel economy.
And untill they work out how to dissable all of the safety features and hot wire the mower, they will be more idiot moron proof.
 
And to say the basic running has not changed since the 1900's is like saying the basic principles of the Mars rocket launcher is the came as a 15th century black powder chineese rocket on a stick.
The basic fundamentals of electricity has not changed either, but your I phone is nothing like your lap top whaich is nothing like the old desk top which is nothing like a Remmington accumulator but they all ran on the same basic electric principles.
The modern petrol engine is nothing like those of the early 1900's and as a person who owns & rides motorcycles dating from 1922 through to 1972 I could bore you to death with the evolution of the engines.
And pluging in fancy electronic controls will still not change the fundamential principles of operation of an internal combstion engine. Suck-squeeze-bang- whoosh / Suck-squeeze-bang- whoosh / Suck-squeeze-bang- whoosh.

When Atom industries invented the hall effect trigger unit it cost $ 0.25 to make but only 2 mower companies fitted them for 30 years till patent ran out.
They now incorperate that $o,25 device into the ignition coils which they now call a module and charge 5 to 10 times what a seperate coil & trigger would cost. And why do they do that ?
To force you to buy a new mower .
Just imagine what they will do with computer control.

eventually all mowers will be electric so the petrol powered mower has a limited life.
 
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