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safety switch ohms out, but bad voltage readings
#1
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
People,
continuing with my no start problem, I narrowwed it down to the safety switch- the one immediately below the big blade control lever (not the clutch one). When out, the switch ohms out at about 0.7 ohms on each of the 2 blade terminals (one with button depressed, and the other 2 terminals with button relaxed). When multimeter is on the BEEP mode with no ohms measured I do get the BEEP.
But when I snap back on the switch to the wire harness cluster, and depress the button by hand whilst measuring voltage to orange/white wire going to the solenoid, erratic voltage (between 7-9 volts). Continuity on thet O/W wire is good. Why do I get these low voltage results when the switch ohmed out?
Big thanks, people.
continuing with my no start problem, I narrowwed it down to the safety switch- the one immediately below the big blade control lever (not the clutch one). When out, the switch ohms out at about 0.7 ohms on each of the 2 blade terminals (one with button depressed, and the other 2 terminals with button relaxed). When multimeter is on the BEEP mode with no ohms measured I do get the BEEP.
But when I snap back on the switch to the wire harness cluster, and depress the button by hand whilst measuring voltage to orange/white wire going to the solenoid, erratic voltage (between 7-9 volts). Continuity on thet O/W wire is good. Why do I get these low voltage results when the switch ohmed out?
Big thanks, people.
#2
reynoldston
reynoldston
You need amperage not voltage readings.
#3
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I feel you need to go back to the beginning. Here is a procedure to help pinpoint the cause of your problem. Start by making sure your battery is fully charged, then start the procedure. Go slow and don't assume any part, wire or connection is good. When you report back with results, we will have a better understanding what you are dealing with. Remember we can't see your unit or how the meter reacts, so you have to give us a picture with you desciption what is happening.
Electrical problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. * How well you understand basic electricity.
2. *What tools you have and know how to use.
3. *How well you follow directions.
4. *You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.
Remember we cannot see what you are doing. *You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. *You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. *The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. *If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. *These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. *Now let's solve this problem.
First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and *voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good.*
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. *One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.*
Third, *check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. *If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. *If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. *If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.*
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). *If you have power what is the voltage?
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again). *If you have power what is the voltage?
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.
After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. *At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. *Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.
Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. *If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. *Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.
Electrical problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. * How well you understand basic electricity.
2. *What tools you have and know how to use.
3. *How well you follow directions.
4. *You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.
Remember we cannot see what you are doing. *You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. *You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. *The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. *If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. *These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. *Now let's solve this problem.
First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and *voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good.*
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. *One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.*
Third, *check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. *If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. *If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. *If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.*
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). *If you have power what is the voltage?
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again). *If you have power what is the voltage?
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.
After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. *At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. *Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.
Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. *If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. *Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.
#4
R
rigoletto
OK, all good points, but I did all that- meaning did all the above checks. results- batt has 12.66v. Recently deep charged, and held. It actually did start the mower one time before i started having the problem.
2) solenoid does have voltage to one big wire.
3) no power at smal terminal of solenoid. removed/cleaned/no rust, leading one now to suspect safety.starter as your instructional above suggests- thats why I was at the point of troubleshooting the safety switch (I did get a new starter switch suspecting that, so now thats eliminated from suspect.
4) no power at other terminal of solenoid (since no power to the small wire, no power to the large terminal, right??)
5) no power to starter (again, no power to solenoid small wire)
6) not sure how to check G circuit, but can we eliminate this with all the other "knowns"? Just wondering. otherwise, have to do that check.
Remember- I checked continuity of that small wire to solenoid, and its good. maybe the grounding circuit is the key (pun?). Please advise........
thaks!!
R
rigoletto
I feel you need to go back to the beginning. Here is a procedure to help pinpoint the cause of your problem. Start by making sure your battery is fully charged, then start the procedure. Go slow and don't assume any part, wire or connection is good. When you report back with results, we will have a better understanding what you are dealing with. Remember we can't see your unit or how the meter reacts, so you have to give us a picture with you desciption what is happening.
Electrical problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. * How well you understand basic electricity.
2. *What tools you have and know how to use.
3. *How well you follow directions.
4. *You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.
Remember we cannot see what you are doing. *You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. *You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. *The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. *If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. *These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. *Now let's solve this problem.
First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and *voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good.*
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. *One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.*
Third, *check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. *If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. *If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. *If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.*
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). *If you have power what is the voltage?
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again). *If you have power what is the voltage?
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.
After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. *At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. *Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.
Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. *If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. *Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.
OK, all good points, but I did all that- meaning did all the above checks. results- batt has 12.66v. Recently deep charged, and held. It actually did start the mower one time before i started having the problem.
2) solenoid does have voltage to one big wire.
3) no power at smal terminal of solenoid. removed/cleaned/no rust, leading one now to suspect safety.starter as your instructional above suggests- thats why I was at the point of troubleshooting the safety switch (I did get a new starter switch suspecting that, so now thats eliminated from suspect.
4) no power at other terminal of solenoid (since no power to the small wire, no power to the large terminal, right??)
5) no power to starter (again, no power to solenoid small wire)
6) not sure how to check G circuit, but can we eliminate this with all the other "knowns"? Just wondering. otherwise, have to do that check.
Remember- I checked continuity of that small wire to solenoid, and its good. maybe the grounding circuit is the key (pun?). Please advise........
thaks!!
#5
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I understand you are getting frustrated, but this is the first time you answered some of these questions. I now have more questions.
1. What is the voltage at the B terminal of the key switch?
2. What is the voltage at the S terminal of the key switch when the key is turned to the start position?
3. What is the model number of the unit for your unit, I need to look at a wiring diagram?
I know that you feel I am being a smart ----, but I don't have the unit in front of me and I am not doing the tests. You are doing the tests not me and I need your help to help you. Most units have two or three safety switches which may be causing the problem, plus some unit also route the wiring through the PTO switch.
I have been around the block twice and I stayed at a Holiday Inn, so I think I know a little about what I post. As I said earlier, electrical problems can be easy or hard to diagnosis. If you don't want my help, tell me to buzz off and I will stay out of your threads and not confuse the situation. If you want my help you must be willing to stop assuming things and actually check and test them before saying they are good or bad.
1. What is the voltage at the B terminal of the key switch?
2. What is the voltage at the S terminal of the key switch when the key is turned to the start position?
3. What is the model number of the unit for your unit, I need to look at a wiring diagram?
I know that you feel I am being a smart ----, but I don't have the unit in front of me and I am not doing the tests. You are doing the tests not me and I need your help to help you. Most units have two or three safety switches which may be causing the problem, plus some unit also route the wiring through the PTO switch.
I have been around the block twice and I stayed at a Holiday Inn, so I think I know a little about what I post. As I said earlier, electrical problems can be easy or hard to diagnosis. If you don't want my help, tell me to buzz off and I will stay out of your threads and not confuse the situation. If you want my help you must be willing to stop assuming things and actually check and test them before saying they are good or bad.
#6
R
rigoletto
good deal, riv- i will do these checks and advise asap.......
R
rigoletto
I understand you are getting frustrated, but this is the first time you answered some of these questions. I now have more questions.
1. What is the voltage at the B terminal of the key switch?
2. What is the voltage at the S terminal of the key switch when the key is turned to the start position?
3. What is the model number of the unit for your unit, I need to look at a wiring diagram?
I know that you feel I am being a smart ----, but I don't have the unit in front of me and I am not doing the tests. You are doing the tests not me and I need your help to help you. Most units have two or three safety switches which may be causing the problem, plus some unit also route the wiring through the PTO switch.
I have been around the block twice and I stayed at a Holiday Inn, so I think I know a little about what I post. As I said earlier, electrical problems can be easy or hard to diagnosis. If you don't want my help, tell me to buzz off and I will stay out of your threads and not confuse the situation. If you want my help you must be willing to stop assuming things and actually check and test them before saying they are good or bad.
good deal, riv- i will do these checks and advise asap.......
#7
M
motoman
M
motoman
Follow Rivets lead. I think you know that corroded wire (even inside the insulation) , bad chassis ground connections (lug seating, paint interference, non-visible corrosion) will drop (reduce) voltage available . Can you check the battery electrolyte with a hydrometer? Voltage readings off battery terminals may be false as charge can build on surface of sulfated battery cells. Dirty battery surfaces and even battery clamps can drop voltage.
#8
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
ok, riv, here it is:
V at B is 12.63. V at S with key ON position is zero. Model # is 13A4 667 S118. Not 100% sure if the S is S or 5. My manual shows it as tecumseh model 667, hence, the 667 in the middle of the longer mod #. Thnaks, Man!
V at B is 12.63. V at S with key ON position is zero. Model # is 13A4 667 S118. Not 100% sure if the S is S or 5. My manual shows it as tecumseh model 667, hence, the 667 in the middle of the longer mod #. Thnaks, Man!
#9
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
If you have no voltage on the S terminal we will have to start there. I'm going to make you jump through hoops, but I am not there to do my own checks. First, are you certain that you are checking the S terminal? Have you looked at the terminal itself and see an S stamped in the metal or next to the terminal? Are you checking the terminal or the wiring coming from it? How many terminals does your switch have and are all the terminals being used? Second, would you double check the units model number? I am not finding any listing or wiring diagram for any of the numbers posted in either of the threads you are posting. Finally, do you have a test light available, or just a VOM?
#10
R
rigoletto
OK, Riv- yes, I am 100% sure it was the S terminal, as I just troubleshot (a word??) that switch/ohmed it out, found a bad short, so ordered new. Message being, now I am very familiar with the G,S,M,Land B terms. It was definetly S. Its making more sense now cuz, as I stated before, Im suspecting the safety switch being faulty.
Otrher questions you had: I was checking the terminal blade itself- not the wiring attached to it. Switch has 5 terminals picture here:
Starter Ignition Switch for AYP Craftsman Cub Cadet MTD Murray John Deere More | eBay
as far as other model/ID #'s, all I have is Engine model OHV 130 206820B, Family TTp35 8UIG 2Ra, DOM 8036D, displacement 358. Model 667. Hope that helps, Riv. I can scan the wiring diagram I have, if it helps....
thanks
R
rigoletto
If you have no voltage on the S terminal we will have to start there. I'm going to make you jump through hoops, but I am not there to do my own checks. First, are you certain that you are checking the S terminal? Have you looked at the terminal itself and see an S stamped in the metal or next to the terminal? Are you checking the terminal or the wiring coming from it? How many terminals does your switch have and are all the terminals being used? Second, would you double check the units model number? I am not finding any listing or wiring diagram for any of the numbers posted in either of the threads you are posting. Finally, do you have a test light available, or just a VOM?
OK, Riv- yes, I am 100% sure it was the S terminal, as I just troubleshot (a word??) that switch/ohmed it out, found a bad short, so ordered new. Message being, now I am very familiar with the G,S,M,Land B terms. It was definetly S. Its making more sense now cuz, as I stated before, Im suspecting the safety switch being faulty.
Otrher questions you had: I was checking the terminal blade itself- not the wiring attached to it. Switch has 5 terminals picture here:
Starter Ignition Switch for AYP Craftsman Cub Cadet MTD Murray John Deere More | eBay
as far as other model/ID #'s, all I have is Engine model OHV 130 206820B, Family TTp35 8UIG 2Ra, DOM 8036D, displacement 358. Model 667. Hope that helps, Riv. I can scan the wiring diagram I have, if it helps....
thanks
#12
reynoldston
reynoldston
voltage I find isn't always a good way to find a faulty safety switch or wire. Just because you my get 12+ volts to a solenoid or starter you still need a large enough current to operate them. This is where amperage comes into play. Its like running your starter with telephone wire. I am just a dumb mechanic that has done this for a living many years and love the electrical problems when they come into my shop. Your very first thing you need is a wiring diagram. I don't care who is helping you the manufactures change wires and hook ups some times yearly so how would they know what wires go to what. I know everyone on this forum knows every wire on every tractor that has every been made. Use this wiring diagram like you would a road map. I am going to stay out of this so I hope you the best of luck :thumbsup:
#13
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I agree with reynoldston on voltage, it may be there but not enough to engage the solenoid. That is the reason I asked if you have a test light. This will tell means if the is any current at each test point. I do have that picture you posted, but I am trying to find a wiring schematic, through which I can tell how each component is hooked up and which direction the current is flowing. Reynoldston is also correct about wires, have seen manufacturers use wires which are a different color than what is on the diagram. The schematic will also tell me if a switch is NC or NO, which helps to diagnosis if the switch is operating properly. Reynoldston, please don't back out of this thread, we all can use an extra set of eyes on this problem. My guess it is something simple, but because none of us can physically put our hands on this unit, we must rely on the OP to do each of the checks very carefully and paint us a very clear picture of what he sees. If the OP can give me an exact model number tonight, I will try to contact my service tech at MTD for a schematic. Hope he's not off next week.
#14
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
sorry for delay-
now, I forgot to mention that I used a multi meter, not a test light, so tomorrow I will try a test light (I didnt know a tast light needs more current to activate it). Also, the model #'s I gave in post #10 is it- no more#'s available. Except the #'s on the engine itself which I heard are useless for the mower "body".
Ray- maybe you didnt mean it but you said [your a dumb mech]- never say stuff like that - youre knocking yourself down with stuff which 1) is not the truth, 2) only serves to lower esteem, which probebly wasnt your intent conciously, but it happens to detriment without one knowing, so keep offering your valubale advice you learned from much experience, cuz right now, I need it.
good night for now........
now, I forgot to mention that I used a multi meter, not a test light, so tomorrow I will try a test light (I didnt know a tast light needs more current to activate it). Also, the model #'s I gave in post #10 is it- no more#'s available. Except the #'s on the engine itself which I heard are useless for the mower "body".
Ray- maybe you didnt mean it but you said [your a dumb mech]- never say stuff like that - youre knocking yourself down with stuff which 1) is not the truth, 2) only serves to lower esteem, which probebly wasnt your intent conciously, but it happens to detriment without one knowing, so keep offering your valubale advice you learned from much experience, cuz right now, I need it.
good night for now........
#15
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
We need to get a schematic of your unit. On the tag on your unit is the model number 13A667S118? In your two threads many different numbers have been posted and I need to get the right one. Also, do you know the date of manufacture of the unit.
Also, tracing electrical flow is much more accurate with a test light than a multi-meter. We need to know where the flow stops. Once we find where it stops, we test the components at that point to find out why.
Also, tracing electrical flow is much more accurate with a test light than a multi-meter. We need to know where the flow stops. Once we find where it stops, we test the components at that point to find out why.
#16
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
I usually take a slightly different route being mobile so oft do not have the luxury of being in the shop & accessing the massively growing mower files.
I use some jumper leads made from 5 amp wire.
In your case I would run a + wire from the battery to the + on the solenoid then a neg wire from the battery to the solenoid to test the solenoid before I go diging into switches.
All of the modern interlocks, time delays and so on can give really stupid looking readings.
As was previously mentioned the only reliable bit of information on a diagram is the type of switch NO or NC
If the solenoid trips when directly connected then try again via the key with & without the earth jumper
if your solenoid only has 1 trigger wire on it then it earths out through the body and being an older tractor there is a good chance that there is enough corrosion around the solenoid to prevent a good earth.
Some solenoids require a full 12 V while others will allow a significant voltage drop and still work, others will only trip with a reduced voltage to prevent owners bypassing safety switches.
No maker actually publishes acceptable voltage or ampage for that matter in their diagrams so keep the DVM for playing with computers & TV's.
Working on mowers I have 2 continuity probes, one has an led so it checks no load the other a bulb & resistor so it puts a load into the circuit
I use some jumper leads made from 5 amp wire.
In your case I would run a + wire from the battery to the + on the solenoid then a neg wire from the battery to the solenoid to test the solenoid before I go diging into switches.
All of the modern interlocks, time delays and so on can give really stupid looking readings.
As was previously mentioned the only reliable bit of information on a diagram is the type of switch NO or NC
If the solenoid trips when directly connected then try again via the key with & without the earth jumper
if your solenoid only has 1 trigger wire on it then it earths out through the body and being an older tractor there is a good chance that there is enough corrosion around the solenoid to prevent a good earth.
Some solenoids require a full 12 V while others will allow a significant voltage drop and still work, others will only trip with a reduced voltage to prevent owners bypassing safety switches.
No maker actually publishes acceptable voltage or ampage for that matter in their diagrams so keep the DVM for playing with computers & TV's.
Working on mowers I have 2 continuity probes, one has an led so it checks no load the other a bulb & resistor so it puts a load into the circuit
#17
R
rigoletto
ok- first, yes, thats the model # above. The other #'s I posed as you say were for the ENGINE plate. Just thinking that might help. If not, no harm done. I must have gotten this mod # from a tech at MTD years ago as there is no such model # stamped anywhere on the deck/body at all. the year made was 1997 or 1998. manual says 1998 brochure.
Now update - I put a test light on the + post of solenoid and it lights. Then, on the B terminal on switch and it lights. But when I put it on the S terminal and turned the key to start position- Man, I got a quick split second light burst then I heard from the solenoid (it apeard from there) a brrrrrraaaattttttt. Lasted for about 1 second. Happened at the time the light went out. After, no light.
Thanks.
R
rigoletto
We need to get a schematic of your unit. On the tag on your unit is the model number 13A667S118? In your two threads many different numbers have been posted and I need to get the right one. Also, do you know the date of manufacture of the unit.
Also, tracing electrical flow is much more accurate with a test light than a multi-meter. We need to know where the flow stops. Once we find where it stops, we test the components at that point to find out why.
ok- first, yes, thats the model # above. The other #'s I posed as you say were for the ENGINE plate. Just thinking that might help. If not, no harm done. I must have gotten this mod # from a tech at MTD years ago as there is no such model # stamped anywhere on the deck/body at all. the year made was 1997 or 1998. manual says 1998 brochure.
Now update - I put a test light on the + post of solenoid and it lights. Then, on the B terminal on switch and it lights. But when I put it on the S terminal and turned the key to start position- Man, I got a quick split second light burst then I heard from the solenoid (it apeard from there) a brrrrrraaaattttttt. Lasted for about 1 second. Happened at the time the light went out. After, no light.
Thanks.
#18
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
Starting to sound like you may have a bad connection at either the key switch, or one of the safety switches. Something you may want to check, on the inside of the terminals like at the safety switches and the key switches, there is a metal strip on the inside of each tab of the electrical connectors. I have seen those tabs break off, and then not make contact with the the spade terminals on the switches.
#19
reynoldston
reynoldston
You are losing current or as I said amperage, As said before the only way to find something is start with a wiring diagram. What you do is start at the beginning of the start circuit (battery) till you find the problem. Yes a test light is a very simple tool to use but I like the multi-volt meter myself. The wiring diagram will show you what switches are open or closed, positive or negative current. Don't repeat yourself on anything and think what is suppose happen when you try to start the mower and take your time. What I do is take a highlight pen and mark the diagram as I go. Very important that you have the right wiring diagram for your mower because I have seen where the manufacture make changes year to year and model to model. As I said this is my favor type of work and can sure be a challenge some times when a problem comes and goes. Other then a good guess is someone on this forum going to find your problem for you. I guess why I call myself just a dumb mechanic is I am not that good with words and some times upset someone and really don't mean to. I have been doing mechanic work close to 55 years and still like getting my hands into it but now just small equipment and motorcycles.
#20
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
ok, guys, I will try my best to follow the diagram I have (scanned) and follow the colors. I will also check the metal strips, like was mentioned. Sheesh, what a pain, but gotta do it,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I wish we had consensus on to use light or multi meter. Light is easier. I appreciate your helps. I wil let yous know what happens.
I wish we had consensus on to use light or multi meter. Light is easier. I appreciate your helps. I wil let yous know what happens.
#21
reynoldston
Nothing wrong with using a light, The advantages of the meter it tells you the amount of voltage. I will use a test light when I don't have a meter and you can do a lot with a test light. Don't let yourself jump around on different cirricts, only one at a time. Take your time, relax, and enjoy what you are doing and you will have that good feeling when you find the problem. :thumbsup: It helps me to get a good rock station on the radio as I work. Just repaired a bad ETC switch on a off road bike this pass week end which took a fair amount of time finding.
reynoldston
ok, guys, I will try my best to follow the diagram I have (scanned) and follow the colors. I will also check the metal strips, like was mentioned. Sheesh, what a pain, but gotta do it,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I wish we had consensus on to use light or multi meter. Light is easier. I appreciate your helps. I wil let yous know what happens.
Nothing wrong with using a light, The advantages of the meter it tells you the amount of voltage. I will use a test light when I don't have a meter and you can do a lot with a test light. Don't let yourself jump around on different cirricts, only one at a time. Take your time, relax, and enjoy what you are doing and you will have that good feeling when you find the problem. :thumbsup: It helps me to get a good rock station on the radio as I work. Just repaired a bad ETC switch on a off road bike this pass week end which took a fair amount of time finding.
#22
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Tried to contact my service rep, but he is off this week. Talked to another rep, who I don't have a lot of faith in, and he can find no machines with model number 13A667S188. This is going to make this more difficult. I'm going to call the rep I trust on Monday and give him a try. I do have one question though, do you have a 3 or 4 post solenoid? Reading the posts since I was gone, it is starting to sound like loose ground or corroded connection. As Reynoldston and ILengine said, you have to take your time and go slow, at this point you need to check every connection. My opinion on test lights vs VOM, I use a test light to trace current flow and then the VOM to test components. They are both a valuable part of my tool box.
#23
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Yep,
A starter solenoid is just another common old garden variety relay and it might help you to think of it this way.
The only difference is how many amps it can carry, Most are rated around 600 A to 1000 A.
So it has two circuits, a trigger with a + & - and a switched or slave circuit ( power to the starter ).
Old school was the earth them to the case so you only saw 1 control terminal .
New school is to insulate the case & provide a seperate - terminal.
Most mowers run an interupt circuit from the start position on the starter switch thourgh a pile of normally open switches ( safety ) to the + trigger on the solenoid.
The down side of this is there is a long hot wire with plenty of opportunities of getting a hole in it and letting the smoke out.
Some smartie realised you could do the exact same thing with an earth wire to the - side of the solenoid trigger thus reducing the chances of loosing all the smoke .
Working on the theory that nothing simple works so well it can not be made better by making it more complicated some started using relays to control the + side of the solenoid trigger and some use relays to control the - side of the solenoid and just to be more difficult to fix others run a combination of both.
Another variation runs the hot wire to the solenoid trigger through a series of relays and each one of these is individually wired to the safety switches
And here is here you get unexplained weird readings on your meter and why I like pulling or isolating each & every bit, one at a time till I find the culprit.
A starter solenoid is just another common old garden variety relay and it might help you to think of it this way.
The only difference is how many amps it can carry, Most are rated around 600 A to 1000 A.
So it has two circuits, a trigger with a + & - and a switched or slave circuit ( power to the starter ).
Old school was the earth them to the case so you only saw 1 control terminal .
New school is to insulate the case & provide a seperate - terminal.
Most mowers run an interupt circuit from the start position on the starter switch thourgh a pile of normally open switches ( safety ) to the + trigger on the solenoid.
The down side of this is there is a long hot wire with plenty of opportunities of getting a hole in it and letting the smoke out.
Some smartie realised you could do the exact same thing with an earth wire to the - side of the solenoid trigger thus reducing the chances of loosing all the smoke .
Working on the theory that nothing simple works so well it can not be made better by making it more complicated some started using relays to control the + side of the solenoid trigger and some use relays to control the - side of the solenoid and just to be more difficult to fix others run a combination of both.
Another variation runs the hot wire to the solenoid trigger through a series of relays and each one of these is individually wired to the safety switches
And here is here you get unexplained weird readings on your meter and why I like pulling or isolating each & every bit, one at a time till I find the culprit.
#24
reynoldston
I see what you are saying here. The manufactures are changing all the time, year to year and model to model. ( I like pulling or isolating each & every bit, one at a time till I find the culprit). This is the reason you need that road map (wiring diagram) It will have the wires colored or numbered and show you what switches and relays to look for and what they do. For some reason it seem to me everyone should know what wire goes to where ever on every mower by just looking at it. I will be will it bet that no one on this forum can do so. Every so often I will get a mower in my shop that a person that they think they know everything and will rewire things into a big mess.
reynoldston
Yep,
A starter solenoid is just another common old garden variety relay and it might help you to think of it this way.
The only difference is how many amps it can carry, Most are rated around 600 A to 1000 A.
So it has two circuits, a trigger with a + & - and a switched or slave circuit ( power to the starter ).
Old school was the earth them to the case so you only saw 1 control terminal .
New school is to insulate the case & provide a seperate - terminal.
Most mowers run an interupt circuit from the start position on the starter switch thourgh a pile of normally open switches ( safety ) to the + trigger on the solenoid.
The down side of this is there is a long hot wire with plenty of opportunities of getting a hole in it and letting the smoke out.
Some smartie realised you could do the exact same thing with an earth wire to the - side of the solenoid trigger thus reducing the chances of loosing all the smoke .
Working on the theory that nothing simple works so well it can not be made better by making it more complicated some started using relays to control the + side of the solenoid trigger and some use relays to control the - side of the solenoid and just to be more difficult to fix others run a combination of both.
Another variation runs the hot wire to the solenoid trigger through a series of relays and each one of these is individually wired to the safety switches
And here is here you get unexplained weird readings on your meter and why I like pulling or isolating each & every bit, one at a time till I find the culprit.
I see what you are saying here. The manufactures are changing all the time, year to year and model to model. ( I like pulling or isolating each & every bit, one at a time till I find the culprit). This is the reason you need that road map (wiring diagram) It will have the wires colored or numbered and show you what switches and relays to look for and what they do. For some reason it seem to me everyone should know what wire goes to where ever on every mower by just looking at it. I will be will it bet that no one on this forum can do so. Every so often I will get a mower in my shop that a person that they think they know everything and will rewire things into a big mess.
#25
B
bertsmobile1
Yep,
Don't you just love em
Then they get a $ 200 bill because they ended up shoving 12V down the earth line to the ignition module when trying to bypass the seat switch so they can get off without the blades stopping
The best one had bypassed the brake switch and the reverse PTO cut out then had attempted to bypass the seat switch because he was too cheap to bring the mower in for service and it was flattening the battery.
The actual problem with flattening batteries was the earth wire on the rectifryer mounted in the plastic cowl had fallen out.
So he had managed to fry the rectifier, the ignition module (intergrated with coil ) & electric PTO . Four hours to diagnose all of the problems & $ 950 in parts plus another 2 hours to fit them. I suggested a new replacement engine which was only $ 300 more expensive. Called me every name under the sun then found out what the franchised dealers wanted for the same job & came back cap in one hand cash in the other.
As for all the changes you can thank your own legal system which point blank refuse to allocate any blame to the operator for any injuries sustained on or about the machine no matter how negligent the operator was.
Some mowers now come out with all black wires in the loom because with colour coded wires it was too easy for owners to bypass the safety circuits and this was the Manufactureres fault because the wires being colour coded and this colour series being almost universal made it too easy for the idiots.
Computer chip wiring is on its way so the tractor will know if you have tampered with the wiring and will shut down, for good.
B
bertsmobile1
I see what you are saying here. The manufactures are changing all the time, year to year and model to model. ( I like pulling or isolating each & every bit, one at a time till I find the culprit). This is the reason you need that road map (wiring diagram) It will have the wires colored or numbered and show you what switches and relays to look for and what they do. For some reason it seem to me everyone should know what wire goes to where ever on every mower by just looking at it. I will be will it bet that no one on this forum can do so. Every so often I will get a mower in my shop that a person that they think they know everything and will rewire things into a big mess.
Yep,
Don't you just love em
Then they get a $ 200 bill because they ended up shoving 12V down the earth line to the ignition module when trying to bypass the seat switch so they can get off without the blades stopping
The best one had bypassed the brake switch and the reverse PTO cut out then had attempted to bypass the seat switch because he was too cheap to bring the mower in for service and it was flattening the battery.
The actual problem with flattening batteries was the earth wire on the rectifryer mounted in the plastic cowl had fallen out.
So he had managed to fry the rectifier, the ignition module (intergrated with coil ) & electric PTO . Four hours to diagnose all of the problems & $ 950 in parts plus another 2 hours to fit them. I suggested a new replacement engine which was only $ 300 more expensive. Called me every name under the sun then found out what the franchised dealers wanted for the same job & came back cap in one hand cash in the other.
As for all the changes you can thank your own legal system which point blank refuse to allocate any blame to the operator for any injuries sustained on or about the machine no matter how negligent the operator was.
Some mowers now come out with all black wires in the loom because with colour coded wires it was too easy for owners to bypass the safety circuits and this was the Manufactureres fault because the wires being colour coded and this colour series being almost universal made it too easy for the idiots.
Computer chip wiring is on its way so the tractor will know if you have tampered with the wiring and will shut down, for good.
#26
reynoldston
reynoldston
Computer chip wiring is on its way so the tractor will know if you have tampered with the wiring and will shut down, for good.
That is a new one on me, what is computer chip wiring? It sure sounds like it will be over my skills.
That is a new one on me, what is computer chip wiring? It sure sounds like it will be over my skills.
#27
B
bertsmobile1
All the different voltages from a set of piezo "switches" will come back to a computer chip which will open & close relays according to the signal it receives .
So you will sit on the seat. it will measure your weight and use it as a reference so if your 3 YO niece trys to start the mower it won't start, if you fall off it will stop.
If a customer trys to bypass a switch it will know & shut down. Just like with cars, service agants wil have to hook up their authorization chip or they won't be able to work on the machine.
The big name brands love this idea because they can restrict repairs exclusively to their dealership.
All this is a simple add on to EFI controller and anti pollution idiocy will make all mowers have efi by the end of the decade if not sooner.
B
bertsmobile1
Piezo electric cells replace all of the old open/close switches. They work basically like a scale, the harder that are closed the more voltage the make .Computer chip wiring is on its way so the tractor will know if you have tampered with the wiring and will shut down, for good.
That is a new one on me, what is computer chip wiring? It sure sounds like it will be over my skills.
All the different voltages from a set of piezo "switches" will come back to a computer chip which will open & close relays according to the signal it receives .
So you will sit on the seat. it will measure your weight and use it as a reference so if your 3 YO niece trys to start the mower it won't start, if you fall off it will stop.
If a customer trys to bypass a switch it will know & shut down. Just like with cars, service agants wil have to hook up their authorization chip or they won't be able to work on the machine.
The big name brands love this idea because they can restrict repairs exclusively to their dealership.
All this is a simple add on to EFI controller and anti pollution idiocy will make all mowers have efi by the end of the decade if not sooner.
#28
reynoldston
I hate to say this but this sounds like a good thing to me. Just look at how superior the electronics are in the newer cars over the old ones. The biggest down fall I can see is the prices of new mowers getting too high for the average person. Its a good thing to keep going forward, but just think about it the basic running of the engine hasn't changed since the early 1900's only design has.
reynoldston
Piezo electric cells replace all of the old open/close switches. They work basically like a scale, the harder that are closed the more voltage the make .
All the different voltages from a set of piezo "switches" will come back to a computer chip which will open & close relays according to the signal it receives .
So you will sit on the seat. it will measure your weight and use it as a reference so if your 3 YO niece trys to start the mower it won't start, if you fall off it will stop.
If a customer trys to bypass a switch it will know & shut down. Just like with cars, service agants wil have to hook up their authorization chip or they won't be able to work on the machine.
The big name brands love this idea because they can restrict repairs exclusively to their dealership.
All this is a simple add on to EFI controller and anti pollution idiocy will make all mowers have efi by the end of the decade if not sooner.
I hate to say this but this sounds like a good thing to me. Just look at how superior the electronics are in the newer cars over the old ones. The biggest down fall I can see is the prices of new mowers getting too high for the average person. Its a good thing to keep going forward, but just think about it the basic running of the engine hasn't changed since the early 1900's only design has.
#29
B
bertsmobile1
like every thing else , there is good & bad points.
Firstly as the man I bought this service run off used to say "It's a mower Trev not a rocket ship".
If truth in labeling laws applied to mowers all of the safety features should be called "Idiot moron self harm prevention devices"
And not one of them actually makes cutting the grass , easier , quicker or better.
Contractors will be dissadvantaged no end because a single failed device will render their equipment inoperable Thus to make up the down time they will have to take shortcuts.
Owners will be at the mercy of the OEM's so when they want your machine to the obsolete, the chip just stops working .
Parents / grandparens will no longer be able to pop the child on the lap and have some mutual bonding - fun mowing the lawn.
Third parts ( no distributor aligned ) repairers , like my self will be unable to service modern mowers and in particular do field services.
I charge $ 60.00/hr with no call out fee, the JD man charges $ 90.00/hr + $ 90.00 call out, the MTD dealer charges $ 120.00 / hr and will not do service calls same with the local Husqvarna agent.
Contract lawn care operators will be limited to using whatever equipment that has a close handy dealer and prices will have to reflect this.
OTOH they should be more reliable, operate a bit cleaner and get substantially better fuel economy.
And untill they work out how to dissable all of the safety features and hot wire the mower, they will be more idiot moron proof.
B
bertsmobile1
I hate to say this but this sounds like a good thing to me. Just look at how superior the electronics are in the newer cars over the old ones. The biggest down fall I can see is the prices of new mowers getting too high for the average person. Its a good thing to keep going forward, but just think about it the basic running of the engine hasn't changed since the early 1900's only design has.
like every thing else , there is good & bad points.
Firstly as the man I bought this service run off used to say "It's a mower Trev not a rocket ship".
If truth in labeling laws applied to mowers all of the safety features should be called "Idiot moron self harm prevention devices"
And not one of them actually makes cutting the grass , easier , quicker or better.
Contractors will be dissadvantaged no end because a single failed device will render their equipment inoperable Thus to make up the down time they will have to take shortcuts.
Owners will be at the mercy of the OEM's so when they want your machine to the obsolete, the chip just stops working .
Parents / grandparens will no longer be able to pop the child on the lap and have some mutual bonding - fun mowing the lawn.
Third parts ( no distributor aligned ) repairers , like my self will be unable to service modern mowers and in particular do field services.
I charge $ 60.00/hr with no call out fee, the JD man charges $ 90.00/hr + $ 90.00 call out, the MTD dealer charges $ 120.00 / hr and will not do service calls same with the local Husqvarna agent.
Contract lawn care operators will be limited to using whatever equipment that has a close handy dealer and prices will have to reflect this.
OTOH they should be more reliable, operate a bit cleaner and get substantially better fuel economy.
And untill they work out how to dissable all of the safety features and hot wire the mower, they will be more idiot moron proof.
#30
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
And to say the basic running has not changed since the 1900's is like saying the basic principles of the Mars rocket launcher is the came as a 15th century black powder chineese rocket on a stick.
The basic fundamentals of electricity has not changed either, but your I phone is nothing like your lap top whaich is nothing like the old desk top which is nothing like a Remmington accumulator but they all ran on the same basic electric principles.
The modern petrol engine is nothing like those of the early 1900's and as a person who owns & rides motorcycles dating from 1922 through to 1972 I could bore you to death with the evolution of the engines.
And pluging in fancy electronic controls will still not change the fundamential principles of operation of an internal combstion engine. Suck-squeeze-bang- whoosh / Suck-squeeze-bang- whoosh / Suck-squeeze-bang- whoosh.
When Atom industries invented the hall effect trigger unit it cost $ 0.25 to make but only 2 mower companies fitted them for 30 years till patent ran out.
They now incorperate that $o,25 device into the ignition coils which they now call a module and charge 5 to 10 times what a seperate coil & trigger would cost. And why do they do that ?
To force you to buy a new mower .
Just imagine what they will do with computer control.
eventually all mowers will be electric so the petrol powered mower has a limited life.
The basic fundamentals of electricity has not changed either, but your I phone is nothing like your lap top whaich is nothing like the old desk top which is nothing like a Remmington accumulator but they all ran on the same basic electric principles.
The modern petrol engine is nothing like those of the early 1900's and as a person who owns & rides motorcycles dating from 1922 through to 1972 I could bore you to death with the evolution of the engines.
And pluging in fancy electronic controls will still not change the fundamential principles of operation of an internal combstion engine. Suck-squeeze-bang- whoosh / Suck-squeeze-bang- whoosh / Suck-squeeze-bang- whoosh.
When Atom industries invented the hall effect trigger unit it cost $ 0.25 to make but only 2 mower companies fitted them for 30 years till patent ran out.
They now incorperate that $o,25 device into the ignition coils which they now call a module and charge 5 to 10 times what a seperate coil & trigger would cost. And why do they do that ?
To force you to buy a new mower .
Just imagine what they will do with computer control.
eventually all mowers will be electric so the petrol powered mower has a limited life.
#31
R
rigoletto
sorry for delay, rey. just got back into it and i do have a 3 post solenoid (one tiny clip on orange/white wire going to bottom blade terminal to solenoid. On the model #- go figure- mine is nowhere in the records. sheesh.
Anyway, I gotta give yous an update- I went ahead and ordered a safety switch for the clutch (cheap) cuz old one didnt ohm out . popped it in today, and hurray, now Im at least getting voltage to the tiny lead wire to the solenoid!!!!!!! But, lets not celebrate the new year yet cuz the V I get is with wire disconnected. When I snap it back on the solenoid clip and test, no voltage on the wire NOR the terminal. hey, were getting closer.
Going on advice of members above, looks like a ground is maybe bad at the solenoid (?) and interfering with the voltage reading Im expecting at that point?? Sound plausible? Im gonna cheak ground connection there for rust/dirt one more time (yes, I did that before- maybe not good enough........
thaks
R
rigoletto
Tried to contact my service rep, but he is off this week. Talked to another rep, who I don't have a lot of faith in, and he can find no machines with model number 13A667S188. This is going to make this more difficult. I'm going to call the rep I trust on Monday and give him a try. I do have one question though, do you have a 3 or 4 post solenoid? Reading the posts since I was gone, it is starting to sound like loose ground or corroded connection. As Reynoldston and ILengine said, you have to take your time and go slow, at this point you need to check every connection. My opinion on test lights vs VOM, I use a test light to trace current flow and then the VOM to test components. They are both a valuable part of my tool box.
sorry for delay, rey. just got back into it and i do have a 3 post solenoid (one tiny clip on orange/white wire going to bottom blade terminal to solenoid. On the model #- go figure- mine is nowhere in the records. sheesh.
Anyway, I gotta give yous an update- I went ahead and ordered a safety switch for the clutch (cheap) cuz old one didnt ohm out . popped it in today, and hurray, now Im at least getting voltage to the tiny lead wire to the solenoid!!!!!!! But, lets not celebrate the new year yet cuz the V I get is with wire disconnected. When I snap it back on the solenoid clip and test, no voltage on the wire NOR the terminal. hey, were getting closer.
Going on advice of members above, looks like a ground is maybe bad at the solenoid (?) and interfering with the voltage reading Im expecting at that point?? Sound plausible? Im gonna cheak ground connection there for rust/dirt one more time (yes, I did that before- maybe not good enough........
thaks
#32
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
I would run a ground wire from the solenoid frame to a good engine or chassis ground. That's the reason I ask about a 3 or 4 terminal solenoid.
#33
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Pull the solenoid and have a good look.
Some have a hidden earth on one of the mountng bolts while others simply have the entire case earth.
Give it a good clean up the run a jumper from the - on you battery to the earth point on the solenoid and try again.
There is a funny divide between the calculator/ computer at school generation & the slide rule generation.
The former are always worried about the actual numers ie what voltage I call it digital thinking.
the latter just look at function & connections , I call them the analogue thinkers.
Some have a hidden earth on one of the mountng bolts while others simply have the entire case earth.
Give it a good clean up the run a jumper from the - on you battery to the earth point on the solenoid and try again.
There is a funny divide between the calculator/ computer at school generation & the slide rule generation.
The former are always worried about the actual numers ie what voltage I call it digital thinking.
the latter just look at function & connections , I call them the analogue thinkers.
#34
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Don't know if you are calling me an analog or digital thinker, but I know what I am talking about. I said the same thing you are trying to say in 40 less words. Even though I may be an old fart, I can tell you that 99% of today's 3 terminal small engine solenoids are internally ground to the case. I can tell by your posts that you are very knowledgable in the small engine repair business, but your posts are so wordy, that the average guy cannot tell which direction your are leading them. Read my signature.
#35
R
rigoletto
R
rigoletto
Yahooooo!!! Figured it out! It was the loose connection at the neg batt terminal!!! Sheesh- I had finger tightened it when I put it back after recharging it and forgot to tighten with pliers!! man, almost bought a new solenoid. Big thanks to all you guys here for the persistent support!!!!! (I did need the ign switch and one safety switch though, those wernt "wasted")
#36
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Glad to hear you found and solved the problem. Reynoldston and I both know how good it feels to track down an electrical gremlin. Now we'll start turning the electrical threads over to you. One question, did you have a cold one after you found it?
#37
R
rigoletto
LOL!! Not so fast, Riv- Just cuz I figured out one gremlin doesnt make me a expert- right??They say a little knowledge can be dangerous. (Whats a "cold one"???)
R
rigoletto
Glad to hear you found and solved the problem. Reynoldston and I both know how good it feels to track down an electrical gremlin. Now we'll start turning the electrical threads over to you. One question, did you have a cold one after you found it?
LOL!! Not so fast, Riv- Just cuz I figured out one gremlin doesnt make me a expert- right??They say a little knowledge can be dangerous. (Whats a "cold one"???)
#38
R
Rivets
R
Rivets
Guess I jumped the gun, can't call you an expert yet, if you don't know what a "cold one" is. Those of us who chase these gremlins, after we find one (especially the tough ones) like to sit back, look at our solution and try to etch it in our brain for future reference. We have found that a libation (cold one) helps in the etching process. Does not always work, but the process is enjoyable.