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bertsmobile1 said:

:welcome:

1)Don't know if MTD makes that mower for Craftsman but if it will most likely be the same deck

2) you only need keepers on pulleys where the belt goes slack.
electric clutches have constant tension so no belt keepers needed.
Mowers with a manual PTO ( some sort of lever ) slacken the belt to dissengage the blades so they need keepers, yours does not

3) Belts break clean because a very high chock load gets applied to them , like hitting a rock.
Some decks are very sensative to engine speed for blade engagement so you need to turn on the blades exactly as the manual says.
Mulching tosses up a lot of debris.
A big seed pod getting caught in the pulley can snap the belt.

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donsiebert said:

THANKS FOR THE REPLY

#2 is great info to have. I always start and stop the PTO at full throttle, as per user manual.
#3 I still don't think I hit anything, But I did notice a small branch off of a shrub on the top of the mowing deck. I always clean the top of the deck with a leaf blower when I'm done mowing my 1/2 acre lot. Guess I'll start to do when I am half done, too. I've also read somewhere that a clump of grass can do the same thing. My rule will be to keep it clean, which might be difficult since I am always in mulching mode and the little pieces of grass are flying everywhere underneath my seat.

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donsiebert said:

WELL, THE SEARS TECH GUY WAS HERE YESTERDAY (AFTER A 2 WEEK WAIT). HE CHECKED EVERYTHING AND SAID EVERYTHING WAS OK, PUT ON THE NEW BELT, AND TOLD ME TO BREAK A RULE ABOUT STARTING THE PTO. INSTEAD OF BEING AT FULL TROTTLE TO START AND TURN OFF THE PTO, HE SAID TO REDUCE THE ENGINE SPEED FOR BOTH TO ABOUT 1/2 OR 2/3 THROTTLE. HE SAID THAT STARTING AT FULL THROTTLE IS PROBABLY A "SHOCK" TO THE MOWER, ESPECIALLY THE BELT. HE SAID THE MOWER CANNOT BE AT IDLE OR LESS THAN 1/2 THROTTLE FOR THE SYSTEM TO WORK. I WILL DO WHAT HE SAYS BECAUSE I AM STILL UNDER THE ORIGINAL WARRANTY AND HAVE ALREADY BOUGHT AN EXTENDED WARRAN TY FOR 3 MORE YEARS. I HOPE HE IS RIGHT. HE ALSO SAID THE ORIGINAL BELT MIGHT HAVE BEEN FAULTY. TIME WILL TELL.

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bertsmobile1 said:

:welcome:

1)Don't know if MTD makes that mower for Craftsman but if it will most likely be the same deck

2) you only need keepers on pulleys where the belt goes slack.
electric clutches have constant tension so no belt keepers needed.
Mowers with a manual PTO ( some sort of lever ) slacken the belt to dissengage the blades so they need keepers, yours does not

3) Belts break clean because a very high chock load gets applied to them , like hitting a rock.
Some decks are very sensative to engine speed for blade engagement so you need to turn on the blades exactly as the manual says.
Mulching tosses up a lot of debris.
A big seed pod getting caught in the pulley can snap the belt.

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CraftsmanFlaws said:

So, are you saying you should reduce the throttle speed before engaging the blades, as that will be gentler and not a shock on the belt? I don't think Sears recommends engaging the blades at lower than full throttle, but maybe they don't know what they are talking about, which would be typical.

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CraftsmanFlaws said:

The tech is full of it. You are supposed to start ANY of their tractors at full trottle, and never at 1/2 or 2/3. A shock to the belt? That's the first I've heard of that. Someone correct me if they have proof I am wrong. The techs I have had out said to start it on CHOKE, and then immediately turn it to full throttle.

Did you know that Sears is so cheap (as is the probable mfr. of your tractor - Husqvarna), that don't design the decks to allow for any ADJUSTMENT for belts that have notorious problems with stretching out. How simple a fix it would be to have a simple adjustment mechanism where you could compensate for a belt stretching out. But, no, they don't want to spend the dollar it would cost, plus this lines Sears' pockets with frequent belt purchases and technician install fees, if the customer is not capable of changing the belt himself. I've left messages with the appropriate people at Husqvarna about why they design their tractors with flaws such as this one, the horrid mulchers, and the hood designs that shake all over the place, rubbing the paint off the bottom sides of the hood, where it sits in the plastic grills on my 20381, and cuts grooves in the plastic housing behind the steering wheel, where the deck also sits and moves to cause this problem. By the way, Husqvarna never returned any of my calls. That speaks volumes.[/QUOTE]

Ok so let go over this one point at a time.

First point. Sears makes absolutely nothing. All they do is sell it.

Second point. Almost all engine manufactures tell you to start engines at 1/2 or 3/4 throttle. My Kohler says 3/4 throttle. PTO is suposed to be started at 3/4 throttle as well.

Third point. Belts do not stretch they wear on the angle sides of the belt till they are so thin they bottom out on the pulley

Forth point. If you sent me an email with stuff like this in an email I would not respond either. I would not even know where to start. You are so angry about stuff that you have not educated yourself on I could not imagine that anyone would want to correct you in fear they would get a worse name for them selves because you did not understand them.

Fifth point. It makes them smart to not take you on as I don't think you would care if they explained it the way I have.

I also expect you to get really mad at me for posting this. But I truly don't give a flying _____ what you think.

Very last thing. I will not offer any type of proof in my statements because a simple google search will give you all the proof you need and probably don't want.

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CraftsmanFlaws said:

The tech is full of it. You are supposed to start ANY of their tractors at full trottle, and never at 1/2 or 2/3. A shock to the belt? That's the first I've heard of that. Someone correct me if they have proof I am wrong. The techs I have had out said to start it on CHOKE, and then immediately turn it to full throttle.

Did you know that Sears is so cheap (as is the probable mfr. of your tractor - Husqvarna), that don't design the decks to allow for any ADJUSTMENT for belts that have notorious problems with stretching out. How simple a fix it would be to have a simple adjustment mechanism where you could compensate for a belt stretching out. But, no, they don't want to spend the dollar it would cost, plus this lines Sears' pockets with frequent belt purchases and technician install fees, if the customer is not capable of changing the belt himself. I've left messages with the appropriate people at Husqvarna about why they design their tractors with flaws such as this one, the horrid mulchers, and the hood designs that shake all over the place, rubbing the paint off the bottom sides of the hood, where it sits in the plastic grills on my 20381, and cuts grooves in the plastic housing behind the steering wheel, where the deck also sits and moves to cause this problem. By the way, Husqvarna never returned any of my calls. That speaks volumes.

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BlazNT said:

CraftsmanFlaws said:

The tech is full of it. You are supposed to start ANY of their tractors at full trottle, and never at 1/2 or 2/3. A shock to the belt? That's the first I've heard of that. Someone correct me if they have proof I am wrong. The techs I have had out said to start it on CHOKE, and then immediately turn it to full throttle.

Did you know that Sears is so cheap (as is the probable mfr. of your tractor - Husqvarna), that don't design the decks to allow for any ADJUSTMENT for belts that have notorious problems with stretching out. How simple a fix it would be to have a simple adjustment mechanism where you could compensate for a belt stretching out. But, no, they don't want to spend the dollar it would cost, plus this lines Sears' pockets with frequent belt purchases and technician install fees, if the customer is not capable of changing the belt himself. I've left messages with the appropriate people at Husqvarna about why they design their tractors with flaws such as this one, the horrid mulchers, and the hood designs that shake all over the place, rubbing the paint off the bottom sides of the hood, where it sits in the plastic grills on my 20381, and cuts grooves in the plastic housing behind the steering wheel, where the deck also sits and moves to cause this problem. By the way, Husqvarna never returned any of my calls. That speaks volumes.[/QUOTE]

Ok so let go over this one point at a time.

First point. Sears makes absolutely nothing. All they do is sell it.

Second point. Almost all engine manufactures tell you to start engines at 1/2 or 3/4 throttle. My Kohler says 3/4 throttle. PTO is suposed to be started at 3/4 throttle as well.

Third point. Belts do not stretch they wear on the angle sides of the belt till they are so thin they bottom out on the pulley

Forth point. If you sent me an email with stuff like this in an email I would not respond either. I would not even know where to start. You are so angry about stuff that you have not educated yourself on I could not imagine that anyone would want to correct you in fear they would get a worse name for them selves because you did not understand them.

Fifth point. It makes them smart to not take you on as I don't think you would care if they explained it the way I have.

I also expect you to get really mad at me for posting this. But I truly don't give a flying _____ what you think.

Very last thing. I will not offer any type of proof in my statements because a simple google search will give you all the proof you need and probably don't want.

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_____________________________________________________________________________


Did you get a PhD in how to be nasty, degrading, arrogant & abusive? In quoting you, "But I truly don't give a flying ____ what you think," I return it as a statement right back to YOU.

(1) As a new member, to receive a post as nasty, critical and confrontative as yours, is beyond what I would expect from an adult with any sense of decorum or decent behavior - You have NONE.
I don't need your insulting, disgusting and condescending replies - so, DON'T RESPOND anymore.

However to show the nonsense of what you posted, I give the following answers:

"Almost all engine manufactures tell you to start engines at 1/2 or 3/4 throttle. My Kohler says 3/4 throttle."

I did a search on Kohler engines, and extensively looked at Kohler's site. NO WHERE do they address starting their engines at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. You must enjoy spouting off fabrications you made up. I'll be calling Kohler next business day.

And, in my Model 20381 Craftsman tractor's manual, it instructs you to start it in CHOKE position, which is full speed, the same as full throttle. That is for a B&S 19hp engine.

WRONG. I did a search on "should small engines be started at less than full throttle," and nothing comes up about starting throttle speed. However, most results definitely recommend running them at full throttle for LONG ENGINE HEALTH.

www.practicalmachinist.com - Quotes:

Jaledu - Years ago when I worked as a mechanic in a small engine shop we would always instruct the customers to run their equipment at full throttle when mowing. Some engines would simply overheat when put under load at lower RPMs. They need that flywheel spinning faster to cool down the engine block.

kenh - These engines are most efficient at full throttle.
Also cooling is a factor.

John in MA - Don't forget splash lubrication--lower speed=less splash. The blades also give the best cut at speed. Better lift, etc. They'd run blades even faster than currently done if it wasn't for safety regulations. When small engines are running at top speed without a load they're actually not using much fuel or generating much heat at all. The thrtottle plate is almost closed. It's only when you load them that they start opening up. Lower speeds frequently aren't even governed, so you can't get much done.

I'm not bothering quoting more; this is more than sufficient.

Doing a Google search on, "Do tractor drive belts stretch over time?" Shows almost every response if that they DO indeed stretch. So much for your claim, "Belts do not stretch they wear on the angle sides of the belt till they are so thin they bottom out on the pulley." NONSENSE. I & thousands of other Craftsman owners have had their drive belts STRETCH, not thin. I can attest the belts on my Craftsman tractor did not wear or thin, as you claim; they were perfectly square and not worn on the sides - simply stretched enough to cause them to fall off on the front pulley.

In response to Husqvarna not answering me, take your fictitious & insulting answer and stuff it:

"If you sent me an email with stuff like this in an email I would not respond either. I would not even know where to start. You are so angry about stuff that you have not educated yourself on I could not imagine that anyone would want to correct you in fear they would get a worse name for them selves because you did not understand them...... It makes them smart to not take you on as I don't think you would care if they explained it the way I have."

Explained it the way you did? What, your erroneous and shoddy 'explanations'. Give me a break.

"I will not offer any type of proof in my statements because a simple google search will give you all the proof you need and probably don't want."

I just PROVED what a Google search will find, which is to DISPROVE your statements, Self-proclaimed expert who never was.

NO MORE COMMUNICATIONS FROM YOU. Go insult and degrade someone else. I'm sure if I searched your posts on this site, I'd find I'm not your first victim.

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bertsmobile1 said:

Belts do not stretch, they shrink.
They get loose because they wear thin an sit deeper in the pulley.
When they sit so deep that they become too slack they have past their service life.
Adjusting the belt tighter will have it running on smaller effective pulley diameters so things like blade speeds with be wrong for the design of the deck.
However most owners are TOO CHEAP to replace a belt till it is either broken or so thin the blade stop turning in long grass.
If you are only willing to pay for trash you will end up with trash.

AYP make what people want to buy.
They make garbage for those who will only pay for garbage
They make good mowers for the few who will pay a fair & reasonable price for a good quality mower.

Sears went broke selling reasonable quality goods on a slim margin with excellent after sales service to a fickle greedy public who abandoned them in droves to buy trash from Walmart because Walmat trash was cheaper.
For some idiot unexplainable reason Joe Public seems to think every thing they want HAS to get cheaper every year yet they HAVE to be paid more every year for making the same amount of things they made last year that some one else thinks has be sold for less.
The two do not add up.
So YOU get sacked and the product gets imported from China so HE can buy it cheaper.
And you can vent your spleen as much as you like but nothing will change unless large volumes of people do the right thing by their families, co-workers and country and start purchasing on quality not cheapest price because the ultimate end is a country in a condition that will make the great deperession look like a pic nic in the park.

And before all you gun toting flag waving hand on your heart patriots start telling me what a great country the USA is and abusing me for being an outsider, it applies doubly to idiot Australians because we actually elect governments that have anti manufacturing policys and encourage the population to "get a good job and leverage yourself into real estate ".

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CraftsmanFlaws said:

Yes, belts do stretch. A Google search will bring up tons of tractor and manufacturer forum sites that state this. My belt was almost NEW. Put on last mid-November, maybe several leaf mulching "cuts" after that, then in the garage for the winter. By mid-July, cutting one acre only every 2 weeks, and the belt was said to be stretched by Sears' tech and replaced. I examined the belt, and the only wear on it was from it falling off the pulley & the guides that hold it, so it ran over the guides when I attempted to engage the blades. All this was pretty clear.

I don't know why you are ranting on and on about Wal-Mart, and defending Sears. I wouldn't buy a tractor at Wal-Mart for sure. But Sears shouldn't be defended. They screw their customers, and have their whole system rigged to achieve it. Sears are the ones at fault, as they have morphed more and more into a company that is greedy, and has carefully crafted a system set up to deny the customer coverage by carefully worded warranties and Extended warranties, where they deny coverage on items and situations that should be covered. For example, if a tech does what one did to me, i.e., scrap the whole bottom of the deck to bare, raw metal, my Protection Agreement denied coverage, based on this being "cosmetic defects". That is a pile of sh**. That is DAMAGE done by Sears. Would you buy an auto from a dealer, bring it in for mechanical service, and then the dealer scrapes the side, ruining the paint, and tell you that it's only cosmetic and not covered? Of course not.

You can read thousands of their customers' horror stories about what Sears did to them, right on Sears Community Forums, yet alone the tens of thousands of complaints on the internet. Look them up on the BBB, and you'll be horrified at how many complaints are submitted about Sears.

Sears markets cheap, inferior designed tractors, made to only function at a very basic level, as opposed to the tractors (& other products as well) they used to make 10 years ago. Many who own old Craftsman mowers talk about how they have lasted for 20-30 years and are still running, and that they wouldn't ever buy a new Sears mower, as they consider them junk. Their mowers are made by Husqvarna and by MTD, both companies do not have a good track record. Husqvarna owners have tons of complaints about how terrible their mowers are and the many problems they have with them.

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bertsmobile1 said:

Well I replace around 200 belts a year and none of them would ever be more that 1/4" longer than original.
In place of reading what other people who have no idea what they are talking abut I suggest you talk to the people who make the belts than do not stretch.

The problem with the web is it allows 3,000,000 people who are illinformed about what they are looking at to come up with a totally wrong set of assumptions then by virtue of numbers the falicy become fact.
As I seem to remember a pair of prop makers became multi millionairs by showing the general public all the "truths" that hundreds of thousands of clots on the web had repeated were in fact 100% wrong.
Suggest you get the full set of Mythbusters DVD's then watch and learn.

Mower belts are Kevlar, Kevlar has a higher tensile strength than steel, it does not stretch.
The rubber compound used on mower belts shrinks when it gets to operating temperature
And belts wear thin on the contact faces.
I have cut hundreds of them in 1/2 to show to customers just how much they have worn when comparred to new belt of the same size.
The back of the belt will still be almost the original width but the inside will be a lot thinner.

I have wrapped the customers old belt around a spare pulley then a new one to show them just how much deeper a worn belt sits and in a few cases even weighed a new belt against an old belt to show then just how much their belt has worn.

Furthermore you have displayed your ignorance about what you are talking about by citing a source that has nothing to do with the type of belts you are complaining about.
Machine belts are plain unwrapped belts made from a different rubber compound and usually with either cotton or pollyester cords.
Their compound is very similar to what your tyres are made from and gets quite sticky when hot.
Mower belts do not get sticky because most of them have to be able to slip on the pulleys when you clutch/brake or turn off the blades on a moewer with a manual PTO.
The exception to this are the mowers with cone or cork clutches where standard belts can be used.

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bertsmobile1 said:

In place of ranting and raving perhaps you might like to actually read what I said.
No arguement that some of the products Sears sells now days are rubbish.
They sell rubbish because people like you will only pay for rubbish.
Thy also sell substantially better quality mowers for people who are willing to pay a reasonable amount of money for a reasonable quality mower.
Now days the public has such a peverse sence of value that any retailer has either to supply top shelf goods and slowly go broke or garbage and stay in business.
You and people like you are the problem not Sears they are doing what they have to in order to stay in business.
If you have done your due dilligence and properly researched your mower purchase then you are a blithering idiot for buying a mower that thousands have posted is not worth the money.

No one here is interested in clots ranting and raving because they made a bad choice and bought a bad mower.
We are here to help people get the best from what they have, to help them repair and maintain their equipment and where there is a fix overcome a design problem as they become apparent.
No one gives a tinkers curse about your hurt feelings or petty grievences
There are plenty of web sites for the disgruntled to vent their spleens to others who get their rocks off by venting theirs and reading other doing the same.

We are here to provide physical help
If you don't want help then go and annoy some one else.

Oh and you may have noticed 3 people who make a living repairing mowers have told you
KEVLAR LAWN MOWER BELTS DO NOT STRETCH.
There I have shouted at you really loud so it must be true.
Go to Gates or Dunlop or any other manufacturer of Lawn & garden belts and read facts
That is of course provided you can handle the truth which I doubt you can.

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bertsmobile1 said:

Belts do not stretch, they shrink.
They get loose because they wear thin an sit deeper in the pulley.
When they sit so deep that they become too slack they have past their service life.
Adjusting the belt tighter will have it running on smaller effective pulley diameters so things like blade speeds with be wrong for the design of the deck.
However most owners are TOO CHEAP to replace a belt till it is either broken or so thin the blade stop turning in long grass.
If you are only willing to pay for trash you will end up with trash.

AYP make what people want to buy.
They make garbage for those who will only pay for garbage
They make good mowers for the few who will pay a fair & reasonable price for a good quality mower.

Sears went broke selling reasonable quality goods on a slim margin with excellent after sales service to a fickle greedy public who abandoned them in droves to buy trash from Walmart because Walmat trash was cheaper.
For some idiot unexplainable reason Joe Public seems to think every thing they want HAS to get cheaper every year yet they HAVE to be paid more every year for making the same amount of things they made last year that some one else thinks has be sold for less.
The two do not add up.
So YOU get sacked and the product gets imported from China so HE can buy it cheaper.
And you can vent your spleen as much as you like but nothing will change unless large volumes of people do the right thing by their families, co-workers and country and start purchasing on quality not cheapest price because the ultimate end is a country in a condition that will make the great deperession look like a pic nic in the park.

And before all you gun toting flag waving hand on your heart patriots start telling me what a great country the USA is and abusing me for being an outsider, it applies doubly to idiot Australians because we actually elect governments that have anti manufacturing policys and encourage the population to "get a good job and leverage yourself into real estate ".

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CraftsmanFlaws said:

Bertsmobile,

I've found mower sites and small engine sites that claim belt do stretch Yes, some say the Kevlar ones do not, but I don't understand how you can say that Kevlar is what OEM tractor belts are made of, and state they are stronger than steel, and then in the next sentence say the "rubber compound used on mower belts shrinks when it gets to operating temperatures." What am I missing here? Are the belts made of Kevlar & rubber both? It seems strange that Kevlar would be used to avoid stretching and provide stronger than steel strength, and then this is defeated by the rubber used which shrinks, and I am assuming is what wears "thin on the contact faces."

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CraftsmanFlaws said:

You're just another abusive, degrading know-it-all who needs to be cut down to size. You can't even spell in your native language, so learn how. Petty grievances? (That's the correct spelling) Hardly. Petty responses from someone as arrogant and self-absorbed as you. And, I DID do my research - several major Mower review sites gave my mower Best Buy ratings and raved about it. So don't viciously call me "people like you will only pay for rubbish." Get out of my hair; I don't and won't tolerate your flagrant abuse. YOU should be banned from this site altogether after that.

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CraftsmanFlaws said:

After reading that, it is obvious there are some nasty and hateful people in Australia, and you exemplify them. What a great representation of your country you are!

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CraftsmanFlaws said:

You're just another abusive, degrading know-it-all who needs to be cut down to size. You can't even spell in your native language, so learn how. Petty grievances? (That's the correct spelling) Hardly. Petty responses from someone as arrogant and self-absorbed as you. And, I DID do my research - several major Mower review sites gave my mower Best Buy ratings and raved about it. So don't viciously call me "people like you will only pay for rubbish." Get out of my hair; I don't and won't tolerate your flagrant abuse. YOU should be banned from this site altogether after that.

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bertsmobile1 said:

I don't see any obvious nasty & hateful inferences in it at all.
Some enlightened observations on modern consummerism .
Then again I do not look at things with a nasty spiteful mindset so I suppose I wouldn't .

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Carscw said:

That's the great thing about this group. Spelling does not count. After reading all the post I now think that the mower or the tech is not the problem. ITS YOU dude get over your self. You came here for help because you can not do it yourself. Then you are going to act like you know more then every one else on here.

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CraftsmanFlaws said:

If you can state the above, stating I am the problem, you either haven't read all the posts of bertsmobile to me, or you're the one who needs to get over yourself. It is BS that I am acting like I know more than every one else here. That's total nonsense. I am writing what I have discovered by searching the net for intellilgent replies on reputable sites, and I even quoted their URL's and the posted content. I expect to be treated with respect, and have not been. So, if you are going to continue to respond as you are, just IGNORE my posts and move on.

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Carscw said:

Why are you still here if you can get more info else where?
Or maybe you should open your own repair shop since you know more then the ones you asked for help.

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CraftsmanFlaws said:

You won't give up, will you? I told you to stop responding, but you don't. FYI, I don't think I know more than the ones I ask for help. I have simply stated that I am finding conflicting answers from similar "EXPERTS" like on this site. If you can't decipher the difference, perhaps you need to learn how to read accurately.

Telling me to "open your own repair shop since you know more then the ones you asked for help," is a total crock, and simply a sarcastic, harrassing answer, and paints a picture of yourself that is negative.

If this is how you are going to continue to harass me, just disappear and concentrate on finding customers for your services. And you are given the designation of "Lawn King"? Such title should be reconsidered by this site after you conduct yourself in the atrocious manner you have.

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RDA.Lawns said:

I think we all agree belts don't streach and you are the one that needs to disappear

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reynoldston said:

I sure hope this forum isn't a English grammar and spelling test because I am very bad with it. As far as belts stretching or not I sure can think of better things to argue about. Just in my many years of making a living as a mechanic I have never seen one stretch. Just about the time I say belts don't stretch I will come across one that did. Of course you are measuring the outside length of these belts that are stretching. Then when you do measure them just how far are you finding them to have stretch? Yes I do think its in very bad taste in knocking any given make mower. I have customers that have Sears mowers that run for many years without any problems. Yes some times a late model mower will have some troubles, but that doesn't make it a bad mower. The OP should have many years of trouble free service out of his Craftsman mower if he keeps it well maintained. I find that Sears have always taken care of any warranty work I ever had done by them. Don't know if Sears still dose it or not but they will give you back your purchase money if they can't fix it right

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What you & your fellow professionals completely ignore is that this is not a site for just tractor experts and geeks; it is intended for ALL tractor owners. But you think you can hijack this site and dictate and abuse those who post here that are just owners who have the intelligence to discover the problems of the tractors they have or have not purchased. You may consider a US$1800 tractor as "cheap junk". That is simply not true, and many people cannot afford to spend 3-5 times that amount on a tractor.

I do find it curious that with all your knowledge and your claim you do this for a living, how would you have time to constantly post her? You'd be busy working and making money.

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CraftsmanFlaws said:

So, are you saying you should reduce the throttle speed before engaging the blades, as that will be gentler and not a shock on the belt? I don't think Sears recommends engaging the blades at lower than full throttle, but maybe they don't know what they are talking about, which would be typical.

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