post proof of bad ethanol problems

[Ric]

I believe your test would prove more human error and failure to properly use and maintain your equipment that's not proof.

I agree exotion it's more human error and failure to properly use and maintain your equipment that's way people have the problems they have, they just have to have something to blame. This ethanol thing is nothing more than a myth that was created by the oil company's. Ethanol is a bio-fuel which is a gas substitute and using it cuts the oil company's profits and they want you to think and believe it's the worst stuff in the world when in reality it doesn't hurt a thing. It doesn't hurt plastic, rubber fuel lines, seals or metal fuel tanks. All those thing have been approved to run 10% ethanol and have been for god knows how many years.

 

[Rivets]

Boy I'm glad that the lawn care specialists are such experts on the problems with todays fuels. You probably won't accept my proof, but it might help the average uneducated lawn specialists. About 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs. Problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment. What we were finding was, gel in fuel bowls, corrosion of aluminum carb bodies, fuel lines and filters softening and breaking down in four cycle, hradening and breaking in two cycle. If you are in the repair business this is not how to keep customers. We tried everything that we knew to find what we were missing, doing wrong, or what is causing our problems. We had heard about people suggesting ethanol causing the problem and decided to change the fuel we used in the shop to non ethanol fuel and had a sticker made up to educate our customers which is put on every piece of equipment that leaves the shop. Since doing so we have cut our comebacks by over 90% and have also seen our business increase as more new customers are returning with different equipment which other dealers have not been able to repair. Most of them now use the non ethanol fuel in all of their small engine equipment and have told us that they are please with the way they running and now only see us for routine service.

Also, one of the small engine trade magazines just had an article by a VP at Briggs, who talked about the problems which engine manufacturers are having with the different fuels out there and what they are doing to find a solution.

Is this the proof you want, probably not, but for the average guy who reads this, it is a way which we have helped our customers and it only costs about $10.00 a year. (That's figuring 40 cents more per gallon for the customer who uses 25 gallons a year in their small engine equipment). To me that's cheap insurance.

For those that question whether we really have experience in our shop, there are four mechanics who have over 125 years in the service industry, with the lowest guy with only about 20. Certificates on our wall include those for working on 8 small engine manufacturers, 6 equipment manufactures ranging for saws to 140 HP tractors, so we are not a bunch of dumbos.

Is there a problem with ethanol in the small engine industry? It all depends on what you believe. I say yes and right now the solution for us is paying 40 cents more per gallon of gas.

Please. Remember to read my signature.

 

[exotion]

I am not doubting anyones experience... I would like to consider myself decent at repair rebuild small engines and equipment. And I read every post on this forum and I see a lot of blame on ethanol when I use it daily my family uses maybe 5 gallons a year with no winter draining that's a lot of sitting and they and I and so many others don't have any problems

 

[chobbs1957]

Boy I'm glad that the lawn care specialists are such experts on the problems with todays fuels. You probably won't accept my proof, but it might help the average uneducated lawn specialists. About 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs. Problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment. What we were finding was, gel in fuel bowls, corrosion of aluminum carb bodies, fuel lines and filters softening and breaking down in four cycle, hradening and breaking in two cycle. If you are in the repair business this is not how to keep customers. We tried everything that we knew to find what we were missing, doing wrong, or what is causing our problems. We had heard about people suggesting ethanol causing the problem and decided to change the fuel we used in the shop to non ethanol fuel and had a sticker made up to educate our customers which is put on every piece of equipment that leaves the shop. Since doing so we have cut our comebacks by over 90% and have also seen our business increase as more new customers are returning with different equipment which other dealers have not been able to repair. Most of them now use the non ethanol fuel in all of their small engine equipment and have told us that they are please with the way they running and now only see us for routine service.

Also, one of the small engine trade magazines just had an article by a VP at Briggs, who talked about the problems which engine manufacturers are having with the different fuels out there and what they are doing to find a solution.

Is this the proof you want, probably not, but for the average guy who reads this, it is a way which we have helped our customers and it only costs about $10.00 a year. (That's figuring 40 cents more per gallon for the customer who uses 25 gallons a year in their small engine equipment). To me that's cheap insurance.

For those that question whether we really have experience in our shop, there are four mechanics who have over 125 years in the service industry, with the lowest guy with only about 20. Certificates on our wall include those for working on 8 small engine manufacturers, 6 equipment manufactures ranging for saws to 140 HP tractors, so we are not a bunch of dumbos.

Is there a problem with ethanol in the small engine industry? It all depends on what you believe. I say yes and right now the solution for us is paying 40 cents more per gallon of gas.

Please. Remember to read my signature.

Thanks for your opinion, Rivets. I like your blunt honesty. It's believable. :thumbsup:

 

[Ric]

Boy I'm glad that the lawn care specialists are such experts on the problems with todays fuels. You probably won't accept my proof, but it might help the average uneducated lawn specialists. About 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs. Problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment. What we were finding was, gel in fuel bowls, corrosion of aluminum carb bodies, fuel lines and filters softening and breaking down in four cycle, hradening and breaking in two cycle. If you are in the repair business this is not how to keep customers. We tried everything that we knew to find what we were missing, doing wrong, or what is causing our problems. We had heard about people suggesting ethanol causing the problem and decided to change the fuel we used in the shop to non ethanol fuel and had a sticker made up to educate our customers which is put on every piece of equipment that leaves the shop. Since doing so we have cut our comebacks by over 90% and have also seen our business increase as more new customers are returning with different equipment which other dealers have not been able to repair. Most of them now use the non ethanol fuel in all of their small engine equipment and have told us that they are please with the way they running and now only see us for routine service.

Also, one of the small engine trade magazines just had an article by a VP at Briggs, who talked about the problems which engine manufacturers are having with the different fuels out there and what they are doing to find a solution.

Is this the proof you want, probably not, but for the average guy who reads this, it is a way which we have helped our customers and it only costs about $10.00 a year. (That's figuring 40 cents more per gallon for the customer who uses 25 gallons a year in their small engine equipment). To me that's cheap insurance.

For those that question whether we really have experience in our shop, there are four mechanics who have over 125 years in the service industry, with the lowest guy with only about 20. Certificates on our wall include those for working on 8 small engine manufacturers, 6 equipment manufactures ranging for saws to 140 HP tractors, so we are not a bunch of dumbos.

Is there a problem with ethanol in the small engine industry? It all depends on what you believe. I say yes and right now the solution for us is paying 40 cents more per gallon of gas.

Please. Remember to read my signature.

Well cheer up if you think your having problems now, wait until the E15 gets here. There already using it in cars in the midwest and they have been making FFVs since the 1980s and there dozens of models currently available, there running E85 and there are 10 Gas stations currently in the state of Florida that sell E 85 for FFvs so it's here.
From personal experience I've been running the ethanol gas in all my Stihl equipment, Honda, Briggs, Kohler and Kawasaki engines for the last six or seven years and I've never had an ethanol related issue.

 

[exotion]

Also rivets I would like a link to that article you were talking about please I am interested in reading it

 

[Carscw]

Boy I'm glad that the lawn care specialists are such experts on the problems with todays fuels. You probably won't accept my proof, but it might help the average uneducated lawn specialists. About 4 years ago we started seeing equipment coming back four to five months after it has be in for routine tune-ups and complete check overs. Problems we were seeing, but confined to, surging, lean running engines, fuel line problems in two-cycle equipment. What we were finding was, gel in fuel bowls, corrosion of aluminum carb bodies, fuel lines and filters softening and breaking down in four cycle, hradening and breaking in two cycle. If you are in the repair business this is not how to keep customers. We tried everything that we knew to find what we were missing, doing wrong, or what is causing our problems. We had heard about people suggesting ethanol causing the problem and decided to change the fuel we used in the shop to non ethanol fuel and had a sticker made up to educate our customers which is put on every piece of equipment that leaves the shop. Since doing so we have cut our comebacks by over 90% and have also seen our business increase as more new customers are returning with different equipment which other dealers have not been able to repair. Most of them now use the non ethanol fuel in all of their small engine equipment and have told us that they are please with the way they running and now only see us for routine service.

Also, one of the small engine trade magazines just had an article by a VP at Briggs, who talked about the problems which engine manufacturers are having with the different fuels out there and what they are doing to find a solution.

Is this the proof you want, probably not, but for the average guy who reads this, it is a way which we have helped our customers and it only costs about $10.00 a year. (That's figuring 40 cents more per gallon for the customer who uses 25 gallons a year in their small engine equipment). To me that's cheap insurance.

For those that question whether we really have experience in our shop, there are four mechanics who have over 125 years in the service industry, with the lowest guy with only about 20. Certificates on our wall include those for working on 8 small engine manufacturers, 6 equipment manufactures ranging for saws to 140 HP tractors, so we are not a bunch of dumbos.

Is there a problem with ethanol in the small engine industry? It all depends on what you believe. I say yes and right now the solution for us is paying 40 cents more per gallon of gas.

Please. Remember to read my signature.

What make a lawn specialists uneducated?
When we talk about cutting grass we don't call you the uneducated service techs.


125 years in the service industry would make you very old. Just because there are 6 guys there with 20 years experience each does not mean you have 120 years experience.

I believe what you just said but you can not put the whole blame on ethanol. Many of us have been running e10 for years and have never had any problems from it. Just a guess but I would say around 70% of problems blamed on ethanol is more from lack of maintenance and not reading the manual.

This is one of them topics that will never have a ending just like what oil to use and how to sharping blades.

Ps if I insulted you in any way I did not mean to or try to.

(( cowboy up and get over it ))

 

[Rivets]

First, I never talk about cutting lawns, edging, raking, etc. as you imply I do. I stick to what I know, engines and equipment. I stay away from those discussions and leave that to those in that business. Second, if you read my post, I said 4 mechanics, between the owner and me we have over 80 years. Those mechanics who have been around will tell you the the engine manufacturers have been talking about fuel and ethanol problems at update schools for the last 15 years.

Lawn care guys probably have not had the problem, because they go through more fuel in a week than the average guy does in a year. The fuel is not sitting around, but being used, just like in your vehicles. There are hundreds of people who come to this forum looking for answers, and you know that when I see info posted that could hurt them or their equipment, I am going to call out the poster. Insulted, no. Call me what you want, it will stick like water to a oily floor, which you'll slip on in the future if you don't clean it up. I stand by what I post and have hundreds of customers who have thanked us for preaching "non ethanol fuel".

To read about what I related to, just google "Briggs VP talks ethanol" and you will find plenty of articles. Even Consumer Reports say "ethanol can destroy small engines"

 

[ILENGINE]

Ethanol does not cause small engine problems. There I said it. Ethanol is actually a solvent, which in other words is a cleaner. The problem with ethanol is its love for water. Ethanol can absorb up to 1% water before it separates out of the gas. which also lowers the octane of the fuel about 2 octane. The water contains desolved minerals that interact with the water and the ethanol and form a mild acid, similar to vinegar. The vinegar slime, water mix causes corrosion to aluminum and steel parts of engines, and with todays fine tuned, microscopic passage carbs, it takes very little corrosion to cause blockages of those passages.

The people that run large amounts of fuel through there equipment will not see problems with there engines. There is enough fuel exchanged to prevent phase separation, and the cleaning properties of the ethanol actually help remove any deposits that have accumulated. The problem is more pronounced in equipment that sets for periods of time, and I am not even sure that draining the fuel, which will leave a small amount of fuel in the carb, doesn't accelerate the problem in some cases, because of the added oxygen in the fuel due to the ethanol.

Twenty years ago techs such as myself were dealing with adjustable carbs, very little ethanol fuel available. but would see water in carbs, and fuel tanks, which if was allowed to set for a period of time would cause rust of metal parts. what we are seeing now is carbs are white internally, with aluminum oxide corrosion, and they look like the have been setting in an acid bath. The main thing that has changed with fuel over the period of time is the additional availablity of ethanol enriched fuel.

The fuel lines that are being used on most equipment are not designed for continuious exposure to solvents. Try putting a piece of fuel line in carb cleaner for a period of time and see what happens. it will either soften, swell if rubber, or harden and shrink if made from a plastic material.

 

[djdicetn]

First, I never talk about cutting lawns, edging, raking, etc. as you imply I do. I stick to what I know, engines and equipment. I stay away from those discussions and leave that to those in that business. Second, if you read my post, I said 4 mechanics, between the owner and me we have over 80 years. Those mechanics who have been around will tell you the the engine manufacturers have been talking about fuel and ethanol problems at update schools for the last 15 years.

Lawn care guys probably have not had the problem, because they go through more fuel in a week than the average guy does in a year. The fuel is not sitting around, but being used, just like in your vehicles. There are hundreds of people who come to this forum looking for answers, and you know that when I see info posted that could hurt them or their equipment, I am going to call out the poster. Insulted, no. Call me what you want, it will stick like water to a oily floor, which you'll slip on in the future if you don't clean it up. I stand by what I post and have hundreds of customers who have thanked us for preaching "non ethanol fuel".

To read about what I related to, just google "Briggs VP talks ethanol" and you will find plenty of articles. Even Consumer Reports say "ethanol can destroy small engines"

Between the experience in this and user ILENGINE's post, I am VERY comfortable with my position in this "debate" which is IMHO a personal choice with no right or wrong. As I see it the statement(s) that make the most sense is if you are in the lawn maintenance business and seldom have ethanol gasoline sit in a machine very long by all means use it. If you are a homeowner, like myself, you can take your chances with ethanol e10 gasoline or as aptly put burn non-ethanol as "an insurance policy". Actually, Rivet's first post is (1)posted on the Internet; (2)shows evidence of the adverse effects(necessary repairs and/or evidence of damages) before(using ethanol) and after(using non-ethanol) and (3)is what I would consider a reputable source of information. To me.....even without my less-than accurate test suggestion, that's proof enough based upon the OP's requirements.