Oils

[rickss69]

rickss69. I didn't read anywhere close to all 80 billion words in the link you sent. It seems to focus mostly on watercooled engines. There is mention that air cooled engines run hotter and should run Xw50 or Xw60 weight oils. My take-away is that the point of the blog is to say the need for high zinc oil is a hoax.

80 billion words do not change the fact that, Kawasaki, a leading manufacturer of air-cooled engines, sells a wide range of high zinc oils and recommends them for their engines.

As for the blog's accusation referring to zinc oil users: "Only stupid people keep doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting different results" I personally keep using the same high zinc oil over and over again, as recommended by the manufacturer, expecting the same fantastic results.

If what you are doing is working for you, and you take responsibility for the results, then great. Where I have a problem is when people ignore the manufacturer's recommendations because they know better from some guy's blog, and then they come whining to the manufacturer wanting warranty coverage when they didn't follow directions.

Yes, it was ZDDP or zinc I was referring to in my previous post. The blog is not so much focused on any particular component used in oils, but rather a method to initially make a informed decision on what to consider/purchase. I agree the blog is daunting to navigate, but it is a running thing that has evolved over 15 years at least.

The ZDDP component seems to be the most misunderstood and highly debated topic when it comes to oil discussions so I will stick with that for right now. Many like to think of ZDDP coating surfaces and offering protection in that form. It simply does not work in that fashion. Nobody has ever pulled a part out of any engine and noticed a ZDDP "sweater" so to speak on said part. ZDDP requires intense heat and pressure to even activate the compound(s) (yes, there are more than one type used). If ZDDP was a constant use component one would see a drastic depletion rate over the lifespan of any given oil. The fact is you can view hundreds if not thousands of used oil samples of any engine configuration you choose and you will find the depletion rates are miniscule at best. Yes, I have spent hours doing just that to satisfy my own curiosity.

The timeline of ZDDP is rather well documented and abbreviated here is what we find - In the 1950's nearly all oils had a 300ppm content of ZDDP. The decade of the 1960's saw a increase to 800ppm ZDDP (note this decade saw some of the highest performance vehicles ever produced). In 1970 some oil manufacturers tried and failed with 1000+ppm levels of ZDDP. It was a short lived experiment to see if they could extend the useful lifespan of oil due to the known fact that many consumers simply did not adhere to regular and timely oil changes. Moving forward to present day the ppm levels are once again back to where they were in the 1960's...800ppm for the bulk of oil sold/used by consumers. Many still believe that the advent of catalytic convertors saw oil manufacturers remove ZDDP completely from all oils...not true. Fact is you would be hard pressed to find any oil without ZDDP.

Yes, I understand we are talking about air cooled engines here for the most part. For the most part oil does not know the difference between water or air cooling as long as you are using the appropriate viscosity for either engine which by the way has little or nothing to do with oil temperatures. Just simply using a higher viscosity oil accomplishes nothing as far as temperatures go and can have the effect of actually raising temperatures in some cases. Yes, I understand we are discussing engines with splash oiling only for the most part, but the principal remains the same. I think the only way one could actually choose any particular viscosity oil for a given air cooled engine is to know what the highest oil temperatures will be experienced. Does anyone here have any data on recorded oil temps in their equipment? I do know that elevated oil temps will thin even high viscosity oils and suspect that is the reason for their use. I have no data for air cooled engines myself, but knowing how most oils perform I would say sustained oil temps over 250 degrees would warrant very short oil change intervals regardless of viscosity.

 

[BudTugley]

Yes, I understand we are talking about air cooled engines here for the most part. For the most part oil does not know the difference between water or air cooling as long as you are using the appropriate viscosity for either engine which by the way has little or nothing to do with oil temperatures. Just simply using a higher viscosity oil accomplishes nothing as far as temperatures go and can have the effect of actually raising temperatures in some cases. Yes, I understand we are discussing engines with splash oiling only for the most part, but the principal remains the same. I think the only way one could actually choose any particular viscosity oil for a given air cooled engine is to know what the highest oil temperatures will be experienced. Does anyone here have any data on recorded oil temps in their equipment? I do know that elevated oil temps will thin even high viscosity oils and suspect that is the reason for their use. I have no data for air cooled engines myself, but knowing how most oils perform I would say sustained oil temps over 250 degrees would warrant very short oil change intervals regardless of viscosity.

We're not talking about splash oiling. We're talking about a 22HP Air Cooled Kawasaki engine with pressurized lubrication. The oil is the coolant, the liquid that carries the heat, and Kawasaki recommends their high zinc oil.

With all your words and linked words, do you have a recommendation for skippydiesel? Or are you just here to convince us you know more about oil than anyone else without any intent to apply your said knowledge to be of some use?

​

 

[Tiger Small Engine]

We're not talking about splash oiling. We're talking about a 22HP Air Cooled Kawasaki engine with pressurized lubrication. The oil is the coolant, the liquid that carries the heat, and Kawasaki recommends their high zinc oil.

With all your words and linked words, do you have a recommendation for skippydiesel? Or are you just here to convince us you know more about oil than anyone else without any intent to apply your said knowledge to be of some use?

​

The great oil debate.
Change it at regular intervals.
Check oil and keep it at correct level.
It isn’t a motorcycle revving out at 13,000 rpms.

 

[rickss69]

We're not talking about splash oiling. We're talking about a 22HP Air Cooled Kawasaki engine with pressurized lubrication. The oil is the coolant, the liquid that carries the heat, and Kawasaki recommends their high zinc oil.

With all your words and linked words, do you have a recommendation for skippydiesel? Or are you just here to convince us you know more about oil than anyone else without any intent to apply your said knowledge to be of some use?

​

I don't have a need to convince anyone of anything. If you are dead set on believing that any manufacturer actually knows anything about oil...I'll leave you with it. The only reason some manufacturers purchase a specific (and already existing formula btw) is to slap their name on it and market it far above it's actual value. It's all about money and all of them do it. As far as a recommendation goes - Without knowing what the expected oil temperatures would be I would use either one of these two... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Quaker-S...sblp1sm-eDSCMZ35E5QH60XX_QQv42oBoCvl4QAvD_BwE or https://www.walmart.com/ip/Quaker-S...doDJX4lBI2IwUmekebWNnIV2CMD0vqoRoCjREQAvD_BwE Only the OP can answer if these oils are even available in Australia.

The 10W40 is a conventional oil that has the highest ever recorded film strength of any conventional oil tested to date...beating out many synthetics. The 5W30 is synthetic and has been tested to be the highest film strength oil available on the planet. Of course the synthetic will have a higher tolerance of heat before it begins to break down. I trust this oil enough to use it exclusively in my NHRA Stock Eliminator engines...as well as all my air compressors, generators and lawnmowers. My only goal here was to provide others with a means to choose a oil initially based on facts rather than word of mouth or "manufacturer" claims.

 

[Skippydiesel]

When you purchase an engine/mower manufactures oil, you are not just getting any old oil.
As with all OM part, you are getting a degree of quality assurance that the equipment manufacturer must stand by.
The assurance, branding & marketing cost money. The manufactures naturally seeks to recoup that cost and then some.
Many consumers will pay handsomely for the piece of mind in purchasing an OM part/oil.
Most who dabble in maintenance, will purchase a cheaper oil, meeting the OM specifications.
Very few will delve into the chemistry, trusting the engine/transmission makers specifications and the oil suppliers advertised standards , meeting those specifications.

My original question came out of a broad, non specific, Kawaskai recommendation for suitable crankcase oil, coupled with an awareness that the use of multigrade synthetic oil, was becoming common ;

 

[rickss69]

When you purchase an engine/mower manufactures oil, you are not just getting any old oil.
As with all OM part, you are getting a degree of quality assurance that the equipment manufacturer must stand by.
The assurance, branding & marketing cost money. The manufactures naturally seeks to recoup that cost and then some.
Many consumers will pay handsomely for the piece of mind in purchasing an OM part/oil.
Most who dabble in maintenance, will purchase a cheaper oil, meeting the OM specifications.
Very few will delve into the chemistry, trusting the engine/transmission makers specifications and the oil suppliers advertised standards , meeting those specifications.

My original question came out of a broad, non specific, Kawaskai recommendation for suitable crankcase oil, coupled with an awareness that the use of multigrade synthetic oil, was becoming common ;

View attachment 70490

Therein lies the problem...trust. Sad to say, but it has been proven time and again all manufacturers are liars...yes, even the oil manufacturers. As consumers we have been in the dark for far too long regarding oil and manufacturers would like very much for that to continue...this is how they get away with ridiculous claims on their packaging.

I have never claimed to be an expert in any field or on any subject and never will. What I will claim is being guilty of ignorance on many topics simply because there has been little reliable data available/provided over the years. Yes, I was just like everyone else for the better part of my life selecting a oil for any given application based on practically nothing beforehand. Fortunately there has been a method revealed to rectify that situation and the sad part is it was available to us from the beginning.

The blog I referenced earlier was started by a engineer who had the same question and came up with the conclusion/answer...film strength. Any given oil's film strength is the only parameter he has ever tested from the beginning and continues to present day. The thermals and anything else he provides are simply byproducts from that testing. Why film strength you ask? Any oil's film strength is what ultimately determines the barrier between metal to metal contact. How does any oil derive it's ultimate film strength? That's easy to answer...it comes from the additive package. The base oils used are useless to us until those additive packages are blended into them. Additive packages are what makes/breaks any given oil and is the number one factor used by manufacturers to cut costs. Yes, oil film strengths vary wildly and you will never be told these facts by any manufacturer.

Considering there are only four companies on the planet (one owned by Shell) that produce these additive packages you begin to realize that cost, not product excellence is what drives the manufacturing industry. It matters not what brand or price placed on a product...unless it has been tested you have no clue what it is you are buying. Yes, you can get away with a lesser oil's performance...this has been proven by decades of experience. The real question is why would you not purchase a superior oil if it were available for the same or lesser price? Any oil with a superior additive package will have a greater film strength and provide a greater margin/cushion of safety should the need arise.

 

[slomo]

The great oil debate.
Change it at regular intervals.
Check oil and keep it at correct level.
It isn’t a motorcycle revving out at 13,000 rpms.

Can we get an AMEN!!!!

 

[Scrubcadet10]

Can we get an AMEN!!!!

but mine is still better than yours

 

[Ozcub]

but mine is still better than yours

Can we get an AMEN!!!!

If not an Amen how about a "Hallelujah"
Oz