Export thread
Oils
#3
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Thanks GearHead,
As you probably know, the engine (Kawasaki FX651V) oil recommendations are pretty vague. I could use a straight, mineral, SAE 30W or a multigrade SAE 10W- (30)40. My local mower shop is recommending the multigrade, going one step further and suggesting it be a synthetic (most of which seem to come with Zinc). Cost while important, is not the issue her - its what is best for my engine.
As you probably know, the engine (Kawasaki FX651V) oil recommendations are pretty vague. I could use a straight, mineral, SAE 30W or a multigrade SAE 10W- (30)40. My local mower shop is recommending the multigrade, going one step further and suggesting it be a synthetic (most of which seem to come with Zinc). Cost while important, is not the issue her - its what is best for my engine.
#4
7394
7394
#5
Ozcub
Ozcub
#7
Ozcub
Ozcub
#9
Ozcub
Ozcub
#11
StarTech
StarTech
#13
Ozcub
Ozcub
#15
Ozcub
Ozcub
#16
7394
7394
#19
Ozcub
Ozcub
#21
S
Skippydiesel
Filter efficiency increases (gets better) to the point where they start to create excessive blockage/restriction. I guess its a judgement thing but I only clean my filters once per year avoid cutting low (min 100mm) so less dust - never had an air filter come close to blocking.
My immediate after use care is - all my dust makers (mowers/brush cutters) are meticulously blown (high pressure air) clean after each use. I am complete against washing (may be once every few years).
S
Skippydiesel
Filter efficiency increases (gets better) to the point where they start to create excessive blockage/restriction. I guess its a judgement thing but I only clean my filters once per year avoid cutting low (min 100mm) so less dust - never had an air filter come close to blocking.
My immediate after use care is - all my dust makers (mowers/brush cutters) are meticulously blown (high pressure air) clean after each use. I am complete against washing (may be once every few years).
#22
R
RevB
en.m.wikipedia.org
R
RevB
A confession....you aren't wrong. I am. That's what age gets ya. Here is a link to the real data. I was thinking of the ratings from the 1950s.....
SAE J300 - Wikipedia
#23
shurguywutt
shurguywutt
#24
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
Not usually a problem in Australia, unless you live in the high country or Tasmania
#27
Ozcub
Ozcub
#32
O
Old Gweilo
Excellent post !!
May I add that automotive multi-grade oils are formulated to spec within a 40 deg C to 100 deg C temp range, ( yep, I'm Canadian). All oil viscosities change with changes in temp, as you know. That "Air cooled" engines often suffer operation temps both above and below, (depending on where you live), spec temp ranges it makes the argument in favor of "synthetics" all the more valid. Synthetic base oils thicken less on cooling and thin less on heating than multi- grade conventional oils tend to do. By extension, this supports their use particularly in applications where engine temperatures often exceed 100 deg C and / or experience a high frequency of startups at temps below 40 deg C. This, IMHO is by no means a critical consideration but, over the life of an engine, may make a difference by extending engine life.
O
Old Gweilo
Excellent post !!
May I add that automotive multi-grade oils are formulated to spec within a 40 deg C to 100 deg C temp range, ( yep, I'm Canadian). All oil viscosities change with changes in temp, as you know. That "Air cooled" engines often suffer operation temps both above and below, (depending on where you live), spec temp ranges it makes the argument in favor of "synthetics" all the more valid. Synthetic base oils thicken less on cooling and thin less on heating than multi- grade conventional oils tend to do. By extension, this supports their use particularly in applications where engine temperatures often exceed 100 deg C and / or experience a high frequency of startups at temps below 40 deg C. This, IMHO is by no means a critical consideration but, over the life of an engine, may make a difference by extending engine life.
#41
Ozcub
Ozcub
#49
T
TobyU
T
TobyU
I find the whole oil discussion to be a real waste of time and fairly comical went involves lawn mower engines.
People running around arguing over and over about which one is best and a lot of people have a lot of bad information but wholeheartedly believe it.
I am certain I am guilty of some of this myself. Lol
Just reading through here I saw someone talking about that zinc coats the internal surfaces and lowers the operating temperature and that using automotive oils without enough zinc could shorten the life of an engine.
Firstly, about this temperature, does anybody actually have any facts about this? Has anyone tested the same engine with a 30 weight in it mineral oil and then with a high zinc oil in it and then with a fully synthetic oil that would likely not have much zinc in it? These Wonder syntheticals are supposed to lower temperature too so is it going to be better to have a lower temperature with a synthetic oil or a slightly higher temperature with the zinc?
See what a conundrum it would put these people into when in reality it isn't going to make any difference. Zinc isn't supposed to be about doing any of that but rather offering a little bit of extra cushion and lubrication when medical contact occurs. I have always read that it's only WHEN the contact occurs that it even matters but again we don't know how accurate that is.
Now, about shortening life of an engine? Who are we kidding here? The average person or the vast majority of people or 98% of people probably 99% of people that own a mower are NEVER going to even come close to wearing it out.
Sure, tons of people will tell you a story about their engine wore out or their engine blew up or their engine needed an overhaul or they had to replace their engine and I can tell you right now NONE are these engines were worn out.
They may have had something like the valve guide or the actual head around the valve guide completely worn out because they had a failure in the valve train and it was continued to operate and it wallowed out the hole so big that it couldn't even be fixed without extensive machine shop work so some shop convince them just to replace the engine because it was going to be so much to replace the head and they need both head gasket done and all that blah blah blah you know the story.
Or the mini Briggs & Stratton engines on residential riders with a blown head gasket that used to be 3 to $400 to fix three or four years ago and now they're quoting $500 to do or the camshaft replacement due to the ACR busted and people will say they had a bad engine... But it certainly wasn't worn out.
Pretty much every one of these engines that's replaced is due to some failure or needed repair and unless they were run low on oil which is really a separate circumstance because they were neglected and especially abused causing excessive and catastrophic where, not wearing out because of use.... But every one of these that wasn't run without oil, still has an awesome finish on the cylinder walls with the crosshatching showing and likely wonderful compression from the rings.
The oil is simply a moot point but people want to make it a big one.
It's pretty evident when you look at the decades all the way to the day on the recommended viscosity charts etc and the API classifications where you can use anything from a 20 weight oil, 30 weight oil, 10w30, 10w40, 15 w 40, 20 w 50, API certifications all over the alphabet etc and all they worry about is the temperature because they don't want you to use super thick oil at cold temperatures when the stuff is like honey.
Other than that it's not going to make much difference and you certainly aren't going to notice if you "where your engine out sooner".
The same goes for the ultra high performance Japanese sport bikes for decades,
They're viscosity charts looked about the same as the lawn mowers but yet for our automobiles, they have been telling us for decades and even stamping it on the oil filter cap that you must use one specific viscosity.
SMDH anyone who can't figure out that this is all about CAFE standards and a number of other things isn't really paying attention or is quite gullible.
Even if the engineers who designed and tested your engine knows exactly which oil will give it the best protection and make the parts have the least amount of wear with a huge amount of miles, that recommendation and memo will never get to you.
It was buried by the executives and the bean counters shortly after it was submitted because they, nor the manufacturer of the car has any desire to make your engine or every other engine they manufacture and sell last the longest and the most number of miles possible.
Now with lawn mowers it's just a joke because as I said people are out here worrying about not wearing out their engine sooner when the average person or typical person or even more accurately 98% of the people don't stand a chance of wearing out their engine..
They would have to use it not just 10 times but at least 20 times more than they're ever going to use it to ever come close to putting the hours on it that could approach the lifespan of the engine.
I would venture to say under 5% of owners would ever be in this category.
Oil, preferences, and all these other Hang-Ups are all about whatever makes you happy and more comfortable and what lets you sleep better at night.
Like when you get a new piece of equipment or a new car it's kind of like your baby and you want to take care of it and everything and you check it and you change the oil religiously and you keep it super clean and all that and then in a few years could be 2 years for some people could be eight for other people but eventually the only thing you're checking is that there's oil on the dipstick and when it gets down to the ad Mark you top it off again and you don't remember when the last time is you changed it.
This is how it works for most mowers.
YOU may not fit this description but believe me when I tell you this is exactly how most equipment is treated,
Heck, most equipment is lucky if it gets this treatment because normally they don't even check the oil and this is why so many engines get damaged, lock up, or snap rods.
I don't make the rules and I didn't determine it to be this way but I have witnessed it, observed it, paid very close attention to it for a really long time with a huge number of customers and this is how it plays out.
I will say this could be absolutely regionally dependent but what I have stated is factual in many parts of the US.
There is zero chance ever that I will put or feel it's necessary to put a fully synthetic oil in a lawn mower.
High zinc like Valvoline VR1 conventional if you really feel you must but mostly because you can get a straight 30 or a straight 40 and even a 50 if you want that also has higher zinc content which can't hurt if it gets low.
But worrying about buying oil that comes out of a Honda bottle or a Kawasaki bottle when YOU don't even know what the parts per million zinc for that oil is.... Is called blind loyalty and just doing it to make yourself feel better.
People running around arguing over and over about which one is best and a lot of people have a lot of bad information but wholeheartedly believe it.
I am certain I am guilty of some of this myself. Lol
Just reading through here I saw someone talking about that zinc coats the internal surfaces and lowers the operating temperature and that using automotive oils without enough zinc could shorten the life of an engine.
Firstly, about this temperature, does anybody actually have any facts about this? Has anyone tested the same engine with a 30 weight in it mineral oil and then with a high zinc oil in it and then with a fully synthetic oil that would likely not have much zinc in it? These Wonder syntheticals are supposed to lower temperature too so is it going to be better to have a lower temperature with a synthetic oil or a slightly higher temperature with the zinc?
See what a conundrum it would put these people into when in reality it isn't going to make any difference. Zinc isn't supposed to be about doing any of that but rather offering a little bit of extra cushion and lubrication when medical contact occurs. I have always read that it's only WHEN the contact occurs that it even matters but again we don't know how accurate that is.
Now, about shortening life of an engine? Who are we kidding here? The average person or the vast majority of people or 98% of people probably 99% of people that own a mower are NEVER going to even come close to wearing it out.
Sure, tons of people will tell you a story about their engine wore out or their engine blew up or their engine needed an overhaul or they had to replace their engine and I can tell you right now NONE are these engines were worn out.
They may have had something like the valve guide or the actual head around the valve guide completely worn out because they had a failure in the valve train and it was continued to operate and it wallowed out the hole so big that it couldn't even be fixed without extensive machine shop work so some shop convince them just to replace the engine because it was going to be so much to replace the head and they need both head gasket done and all that blah blah blah you know the story.
Or the mini Briggs & Stratton engines on residential riders with a blown head gasket that used to be 3 to $400 to fix three or four years ago and now they're quoting $500 to do or the camshaft replacement due to the ACR busted and people will say they had a bad engine... But it certainly wasn't worn out.
Pretty much every one of these engines that's replaced is due to some failure or needed repair and unless they were run low on oil which is really a separate circumstance because they were neglected and especially abused causing excessive and catastrophic where, not wearing out because of use.... But every one of these that wasn't run without oil, still has an awesome finish on the cylinder walls with the crosshatching showing and likely wonderful compression from the rings.
The oil is simply a moot point but people want to make it a big one.
It's pretty evident when you look at the decades all the way to the day on the recommended viscosity charts etc and the API classifications where you can use anything from a 20 weight oil, 30 weight oil, 10w30, 10w40, 15 w 40, 20 w 50, API certifications all over the alphabet etc and all they worry about is the temperature because they don't want you to use super thick oil at cold temperatures when the stuff is like honey.
Other than that it's not going to make much difference and you certainly aren't going to notice if you "where your engine out sooner".
The same goes for the ultra high performance Japanese sport bikes for decades,
They're viscosity charts looked about the same as the lawn mowers but yet for our automobiles, they have been telling us for decades and even stamping it on the oil filter cap that you must use one specific viscosity.
SMDH anyone who can't figure out that this is all about CAFE standards and a number of other things isn't really paying attention or is quite gullible.
Even if the engineers who designed and tested your engine knows exactly which oil will give it the best protection and make the parts have the least amount of wear with a huge amount of miles, that recommendation and memo will never get to you.
It was buried by the executives and the bean counters shortly after it was submitted because they, nor the manufacturer of the car has any desire to make your engine or every other engine they manufacture and sell last the longest and the most number of miles possible.
Now with lawn mowers it's just a joke because as I said people are out here worrying about not wearing out their engine sooner when the average person or typical person or even more accurately 98% of the people don't stand a chance of wearing out their engine..
They would have to use it not just 10 times but at least 20 times more than they're ever going to use it to ever come close to putting the hours on it that could approach the lifespan of the engine.
I would venture to say under 5% of owners would ever be in this category.
Oil, preferences, and all these other Hang-Ups are all about whatever makes you happy and more comfortable and what lets you sleep better at night.
Like when you get a new piece of equipment or a new car it's kind of like your baby and you want to take care of it and everything and you check it and you change the oil religiously and you keep it super clean and all that and then in a few years could be 2 years for some people could be eight for other people but eventually the only thing you're checking is that there's oil on the dipstick and when it gets down to the ad Mark you top it off again and you don't remember when the last time is you changed it.
This is how it works for most mowers.
YOU may not fit this description but believe me when I tell you this is exactly how most equipment is treated,
Heck, most equipment is lucky if it gets this treatment because normally they don't even check the oil and this is why so many engines get damaged, lock up, or snap rods.
I don't make the rules and I didn't determine it to be this way but I have witnessed it, observed it, paid very close attention to it for a really long time with a huge number of customers and this is how it plays out.
I will say this could be absolutely regionally dependent but what I have stated is factual in many parts of the US.
There is zero chance ever that I will put or feel it's necessary to put a fully synthetic oil in a lawn mower.
High zinc like Valvoline VR1 conventional if you really feel you must but mostly because you can get a straight 30 or a straight 40 and even a 50 if you want that also has higher zinc content which can't hurt if it gets low.
But worrying about buying oil that comes out of a Honda bottle or a Kawasaki bottle when YOU don't even know what the parts per million zinc for that oil is.... Is called blind loyalty and just doing it to make yourself feel better.
#51
R
rickss69
Yes, it was ZDDP or zinc I was referring to in my previous post. The blog is not so much focused on any particular component used in oils, but rather a method to initially make a informed decision on what to consider/purchase. I agree the blog is daunting to navigate, but it is a running thing that has evolved over 15 years at least.
The ZDDP component seems to be the most misunderstood and highly debated topic when it comes to oil discussions so I will stick with that for right now. Many like to think of ZDDP coating surfaces and offering protection in that form. It simply does not work in that fashion. Nobody has ever pulled a part out of any engine and noticed a ZDDP "sweater" so to speak on said part. ZDDP requires intense heat and pressure to even activate the compound(s) (yes, there are more than one type used). If ZDDP was a constant use component one would see a drastic depletion rate over the lifespan of any given oil. The fact is you can view hundreds if not thousands of used oil samples of any engine configuration you choose and you will find the depletion rates are miniscule at best. Yes, I have spent hours doing just that to satisfy my own curiosity.
The timeline of ZDDP is rather well documented and abbreviated here is what we find - In the 1950's nearly all oils had a 300ppm content of ZDDP. The decade of the 1960's saw a increase to 800ppm ZDDP (note this decade saw some of the highest performance vehicles ever produced). In 1970 some oil manufacturers tried and failed with 1000+ppm levels of ZDDP. It was a short lived experiment to see if they could extend the useful lifespan of oil due to the known fact that many consumers simply did not adhere to regular and timely oil changes. Moving forward to present day the ppm levels are once again back to where they were in the 1960's...800ppm for the bulk of oil sold/used by consumers. Many still believe that the advent of catalytic convertors saw oil manufacturers remove ZDDP completely from all oils...not true. Fact is you would be hard pressed to find any oil without ZDDP.
Yes, I understand we are talking about air cooled engines here for the most part. For the most part oil does not know the difference between water or air cooling as long as you are using the appropriate viscosity for either engine which by the way has little or nothing to do with oil temperatures. Just simply using a higher viscosity oil accomplishes nothing as far as temperatures go and can have the effect of actually raising temperatures in some cases. Yes, I understand we are discussing engines with splash oiling only for the most part, but the principal remains the same. I think the only way one could actually choose any particular viscosity oil for a given air cooled engine is to know what the highest oil temperatures will be experienced. Does anyone here have any data on recorded oil temps in their equipment? I do know that elevated oil temps will thin even high viscosity oils and suspect that is the reason for their use. I have no data for air cooled engines myself, but knowing how most oils perform I would say sustained oil temps over 250 degrees would warrant very short oil change intervals regardless of viscosity.
R
rickss69
Yes, it was ZDDP or zinc I was referring to in my previous post. The blog is not so much focused on any particular component used in oils, but rather a method to initially make a informed decision on what to consider/purchase. I agree the blog is daunting to navigate, but it is a running thing that has evolved over 15 years at least.
The ZDDP component seems to be the most misunderstood and highly debated topic when it comes to oil discussions so I will stick with that for right now. Many like to think of ZDDP coating surfaces and offering protection in that form. It simply does not work in that fashion. Nobody has ever pulled a part out of any engine and noticed a ZDDP "sweater" so to speak on said part. ZDDP requires intense heat and pressure to even activate the compound(s) (yes, there are more than one type used). If ZDDP was a constant use component one would see a drastic depletion rate over the lifespan of any given oil. The fact is you can view hundreds if not thousands of used oil samples of any engine configuration you choose and you will find the depletion rates are miniscule at best. Yes, I have spent hours doing just that to satisfy my own curiosity.
The timeline of ZDDP is rather well documented and abbreviated here is what we find - In the 1950's nearly all oils had a 300ppm content of ZDDP. The decade of the 1960's saw a increase to 800ppm ZDDP (note this decade saw some of the highest performance vehicles ever produced). In 1970 some oil manufacturers tried and failed with 1000+ppm levels of ZDDP. It was a short lived experiment to see if they could extend the useful lifespan of oil due to the known fact that many consumers simply did not adhere to regular and timely oil changes. Moving forward to present day the ppm levels are once again back to where they were in the 1960's...800ppm for the bulk of oil sold/used by consumers. Many still believe that the advent of catalytic convertors saw oil manufacturers remove ZDDP completely from all oils...not true. Fact is you would be hard pressed to find any oil without ZDDP.
Yes, I understand we are talking about air cooled engines here for the most part. For the most part oil does not know the difference between water or air cooling as long as you are using the appropriate viscosity for either engine which by the way has little or nothing to do with oil temperatures. Just simply using a higher viscosity oil accomplishes nothing as far as temperatures go and can have the effect of actually raising temperatures in some cases. Yes, I understand we are discussing engines with splash oiling only for the most part, but the principal remains the same. I think the only way one could actually choose any particular viscosity oil for a given air cooled engine is to know what the highest oil temperatures will be experienced. Does anyone here have any data on recorded oil temps in their equipment? I do know that elevated oil temps will thin even high viscosity oils and suspect that is the reason for their use. I have no data for air cooled engines myself, but knowing how most oils perform I would say sustained oil temps over 250 degrees would warrant very short oil change intervals regardless of viscosity.
#53
Tiger Small Engine
Tiger Small Engine
#54
R
rickss69
The 10W40 is a conventional oil that has the highest ever recorded film strength of any conventional oil tested to date...beating out many synthetics. The 5W30 is synthetic and has been tested to be the highest film strength oil available on the planet. Of course the synthetic will have a higher tolerance of heat before it begins to break down. I trust this oil enough to use it exclusively in my NHRA Stock Eliminator engines...as well as all my air compressors, generators and lawnmowers. My only goal here was to provide others with a means to choose a oil initially based on facts rather than word of mouth or "manufacturer" claims.
R
rickss69
I don't have a need to convince anyone of anything. If you are dead set on believing that any manufacturer actually knows anything about oil...I'll leave you with it. The only reason some manufacturers purchase a specific (and already existing formula btw) is to slap their name on it and market it far above it's actual value. It's all about money and all of them do it. As far as a recommendation goes - Without knowing what the expected oil temperatures would be I would use either one of these two... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Quaker-S...sblp1sm-eDSCMZ35E5QH60XX_QQv42oBoCvl4QAvD_BwE or https://www.walmart.com/ip/Quaker-S...doDJX4lBI2IwUmekebWNnIV2CMD0vqoRoCjREQAvD_BwE Only the OP can answer if these oils are even available in Australia.
The 10W40 is a conventional oil that has the highest ever recorded film strength of any conventional oil tested to date...beating out many synthetics. The 5W30 is synthetic and has been tested to be the highest film strength oil available on the planet. Of course the synthetic will have a higher tolerance of heat before it begins to break down. I trust this oil enough to use it exclusively in my NHRA Stock Eliminator engines...as well as all my air compressors, generators and lawnmowers. My only goal here was to provide others with a means to choose a oil initially based on facts rather than word of mouth or "manufacturer" claims.
#55
S
Skippydiesel
S
Skippydiesel
When you purchase an engine/mower manufactures oil, you are not just getting any old oil.
As with all OM part, you are getting a degree of quality assurance that the equipment manufacturer must stand by.
The assurance, branding & marketing cost money. The manufactures naturally seeks to recoup that cost and then some.
Many consumers will pay handsomely for the piece of mind in purchasing an OM part/oil.
Most who dabble in maintenance, will purchase a cheaper oil, meeting the OM specifications.
Very few will delve into the chemistry, trusting the engine/transmission makers specifications and the oil suppliers advertised standards , meeting those specifications.
My original question came out of a broad, non specific, Kawaskai recommendation for suitable crankcase oil, coupled with an awareness that the use of multigrade synthetic oil, was becoming common ;
As with all OM part, you are getting a degree of quality assurance that the equipment manufacturer must stand by.
The assurance, branding & marketing cost money. The manufactures naturally seeks to recoup that cost and then some.
Many consumers will pay handsomely for the piece of mind in purchasing an OM part/oil.
Most who dabble in maintenance, will purchase a cheaper oil, meeting the OM specifications.
Very few will delve into the chemistry, trusting the engine/transmission makers specifications and the oil suppliers advertised standards , meeting those specifications.
My original question came out of a broad, non specific, Kawaskai recommendation for suitable crankcase oil, coupled with an awareness that the use of multigrade synthetic oil, was becoming common ;
#58
Scrubcadet10
Scrubcadet10
#59
Ozcub
Ozcub