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Just wanted to say "keep up the good work" Stihl . . . Echo vs. Stihl= no comparison. Truly commercial grade products.

The only thing i dont like about stihl is the 4mix engine....i used to be a die hard stihl man myself but i like any orange 2 cycle....that does'nt have valves lol

The 4mix technology is the only way to go :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Ok i lied ...the only 4mix i like is the br600 because its just plain old bad ***..... i chased a brick across concrete with it one day...i need one of the feeler guages to set valve lash for it....my local dealer wont get one for me

From what I have been told. 4mix is all Stihl will have in the near future.

Exmark fan said:

From what I have been told. 4mix is all Stihl will have in the near future.

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Interesting!!

themowerking20 said:

Ok i lied ...the only 4mix i like is the br600 because its just plain old bad ***..... i chased a brick across concrete with it one day...i need one of the feeler guages to set valve lash for it....my local dealer wont get one for me

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I also have a Stihl BR600 I recently bought and I love it! The backpack does raise a little bit on the right side but I can live with that.

I'm looking at Stihl weedeaters. I am 6'4" tall and every one I've had up to now has not been long enough for me, hurts my lower back. I want a straight shaft. Maybe I should buy a trimmer with those bike-style handlebars?

I would reccomend bike bars for extended use ....if you gonna run 4 or 5 tanks in a few hours ....but standard trimming i would stay away from them... just my opinion

themowerking20 said:

I would reccomend bike bars for extended use ....if you gonna run 4 or 5 tanks in a few hours ....but standard trimming i would stay away from them... just my opinion

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Why do you say stay away for standard trimming?

To me standard trimming doesnt justify a bike bar trimmer which is actually sold as a brush cutter ..too big and bulky for hopping out of the truck and trimming around a few obstacles.. trust me ...every time you pull that big brushcutter out for a light trimming task you are going to hate it ..lol

themowerking20 said:

To me standard trimming doesnt justify a bike bar trimmer which is actually sold as a brush cutter ..too big and bulky for hopping out of the truck and trimming around a few obstacles.. trust me ...every time you pull that big brushcutter out for a light trimming task you are going to hate it ..lol

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Excellent! Thank u so much for the advice. Do you know if there is a longer shaft available? I'm so tall that trimmers hurt my lower back.

themowerking20 said:

To me standard trimming doesnt justify a bike bar trimmer which is actually sold as a brush cutter ..too big and bulky for hopping out of the truck and trimming around a few obstacles.. trust me ...every time you pull that big brushcutter out for a light trimming task you are going to hate it ..lol

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I agree. And usually if using bike bar you then need a strap or harness system to hold the thing up . Good for hours not minutes.

My push mower needs to be replaced before the Spring. I have a zero turn for most of my mowing but I need a push mower for small areas around the garden, pool and back porch. We had a Bolens that lasted us for 10 years. Any suggestions?

Bomba said:

My push mower needs to be replaced before the Spring. I have a zero turn for most of my mowing but I need a push mower for small areas around the garden, pool and back porch. We had a Bolens that lasted us for 10 years. Any suggestions?

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Maybe you could look at a good used Snapper on Craigslist or something. All the good new brands I would suggest are probably more than you would want to spend for a push mower since you have a ZTR for the larger areas.

Snapper all the way for the push mower.....and try a stihl fs70 trimmer its pro grade and it aint 4 mix

Exmark fan said:

From what I have been told. 4mix is all Stihl will have in the near future.

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That's what the guy in the shop indicated to me also, Stihl in the near future would all be the 4mix. At this point they still have some 2 stoke stuff available but it probably wont last very long.

I would like to see a 4mix chainsaw...that crap will never sell.. haha

Some of the 2stroke stuff is gone as of 2013. Fs45, fs55, ms290. All gone after dealers run out. And they already have a fuel injected saw. I haven't got to run one yet.

Exmark fan said:

Some of the 2stroke stuff is gone as of 2013. Fs45, fs55, ms290. All gone after dealers run out. And they already have a fuel injected saw. I haven't got to run one yet.

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I love fs55's and ms290's I run both. And that fuel injected saw just sounds like a nightmare. I know nothing about it so maybe it's not that bad.

Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by 4mix?

Bomba said:

Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by 4mix?

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The Stihl 4 mix units are 4 cycle or stroke engine that uses the 2 cycle lubrication. It's basically a 4 stroke engine without the Crankcase. The advantages to the 4 mix are Less emissions, there more fuel efficient than the 2 stroke and there definitely less noisy and weigh less than a conventional 4 stroke.

Ric said:

The Stihl 4 mix units are 4 cycle or stroke engine that uses the 2 cycle lubrication. It's basically a 4 stroke engine without the Crankcase. The advantages to the 4 mix are Less emissions, there more fuel efficient than the 2 stroke and there definitely less noisy and weigh less than a conventional 4 stroke.

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Ok thanks for the info. Yes I researched push mowers and I think you were right- the snapper seems to be the best one for the money. At least what I need it for. I have a large 3 acre lot. Use my ZTR for most of it. I need something that will mulch really well, I don't really need to bag. The Ninja sounds like the best right now. My lawn is pretty level also. I use my Stihl BR600 to tidy up any clippings.

Bomba said:

Ok thanks for the info. Yes I researched push mowers and I think you were right- the snapper seems to be the best one for the money. At least what I need it for. I have a large 3 acre lot. Use my ZTR for most of it. I need something that will mulch really well, I don't really need to bag. The Ninja sounds like the best right now. My lawn is pretty level also. I use my Stihl BR600 to tidy up any clippings.

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Are you buying a New Snapper ninja because for that money I'd look at the Honda HRX217VKA. There the best Mulching mower on the Market $599 New with a 5 year Warranty. JMO

Honda HRX2172VKA 21" Self Propelled Mower w/ SmartDrive WiseSales.com

Bomba said:

Ok thanks for the info. Yes I researched push mowers and I think you were right- the snapper seems to be the best one for the money. At least what I need it for. I have a large 3 acre lot. Use my ZTR for most of it. I need something that will mulch really well, I don't really need to bag. The Ninja sounds like the best right now. My lawn is pretty level also. I use my Stihl BR600 to tidy up any clippings.

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As Ric said, if you were planning on buying a new Snapper, a Honda HRX217VKA would be even better! I have the Honda HRX217HYA and absolutely love it! I think it would be better than a new Snapper. Don't get me wrong, older Snappers are good (I did recommend one), but for a new mower, you can't beat the VKA. The mulching is excellent. The first picture isn't with the VKA, but a similar mower. That is how good the HRX line is:


HRX217VKA: Honda Lawn Mowers: HRX217VKA, HRX217K4VKA

(video by johnconroy)

Have to put my two cents in at this point seeing we changed from Stihl products to mowers. Toro mowers are just as good as Honda's and Snappers. I think they mulch better, personal pace is easier to use and repair costs if needed are cheaper. I'm 6'-4" and last year I bought and Echo trimmer Model SRM-266S which has a long shaft and works great for us height challenged guys.

Rivets said:

Have to put my two cents in at this point seeing we changed from Stihl products to mowers. Toro mowers are just as good as Honda's and Snappers. I think they mulch better, personal pace is easier to use and repair costs if needed are cheaper. I'm 6'-4" and last year I bought and Echo trimmer Model SRM-266S which has a long shaft and works great for us height challenged guys.

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Hey Rivets, who would have thought our height would be a disadvantage? Lol!

Ric said:

Are you buying a New Snapper ninja because for that money I'd look at the Honda HRX217VKA. There the best Mulching mower on the Market $599 New with a 5 year Warranty. JMO

Honda HRX2172VKA 21" Self Propelled Mower w/ SmartDrive WiseSales.com

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Ok, everyone keeps mentioning this Honda HRX. keep coming back to it. Yes I'm buying new. Ric, you have been so helpful. I really appreciate u taking the time.

themowerking20 said:

I would like to see a 4mix chainsaw...that crap will never sell.. haha

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:smile: They said the 4 mix trimmers and edgers and blowers wouldn't sell either. They said the same thing about big outboard motors and now everything is 4 stroke. The 2 stroke engine is going to be obsolete.

Toro everytime.

The 22" with a bbc is a great mower. Toro | 21.7" (55 cm) Steel Deck Recycler® (20958)

or you could go for the new 30" Toro | TimeMaster

I just find Toro more reliable than Hondas.
I replace a few transmissions in a year on various models and prefer the Briggs engine.

Ric said:

The 2 stroke engine is going to be obsolete.

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I can see a big discussion coming on about if 2-stroke engines are obsolete, just like the thread "push mowers are obsolete" by AmericanTurf: http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/commercial-residential-lawn-mowing/13324-push-mowers-obsolete.html

lawn mower fanatic said:

I can see a big discussion coming on about if 2-stroke engines are obsolete, just like the thread "push mowers are obsolete" by AmericanTurf: http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/commercial-residential-lawn-mowing/13324-push-mowers-obsolete.html

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2 stroke engines wont be going obselete for a while.

Stihl are probably going 4mix more because its cheaper than having to buy in engines from other manufacturers.

Bomba said:

Ok, everyone keeps mentioning this Honda HRX. keep coming back to it. Yes I'm buying new. Ric, you have been so helpful. I really appreciate u taking the time.

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Well the reason I mentioned the HRX was because I think it's a lot better mower than the Snapper. Now this may sound weird but I've based my purchase decisions in this way, I learned a long time ago when riding bicycles if you wanted to know what the best equipment was on the market in the way of bicycles the thing to do is to see what the professional riders and their organizations competing in the TDF were were using because they had the best equipment money could buy so that was what you bought or tried to buy. So why not do the same for lawn care equipment, only makes sense. Take a look at some different lawn care businesses in your area, see what there running, ask some questions. Personally I think Honda is probably the top mower on the market and Toro is right beside it and with Toro starting to use the Kawasaki engines Honda may start lagging behind.

Ric said:

Well the reason I mentioned the HRX was because I think it's a lot better mower than the Snapper. Now this may sound weird but I've based my purchase decisions in this way, I learned a long time ago when riding bicycles if you wanted to know what the best equipment was on the market in the way of bicycles the thing to do is to see what the professional riders and their organizations competing in the TDF were were using because they had the best equipment money could buy so that was what you bought or tried to buy. So why not do the same for lawn care equipment, only makes sense. Take a look at some different lawn care businesses in your area, see what there running, ask some questions. Personally I think Honda is probably the top mower on the market and Toro is right beside it and with Toro starting to use the Kawasaki engines Honda may start lagging behind.

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I read somewhere that Toro owns the exmark company, which surprised me. Back to Stihl, I have a Stihl blower and chainsaw. I gotta say that the Stihl and Exmark customer support teams have been excellent. Makes me never want to buy from a big box store again.

Ric said:

Well the reason I mentioned the HRX was because I think it's a lot better mower than the Snapper. Now this may sound weird but I've based my purchase decisions in this way, I learned a long time ago when riding bicycles if you wanted to know what the best equipment was on the market in the way of bicycles the thing to do is to see what the professional riders and their organizations competing in the TDF were were using because they had the best equipment money could buy so that was what you bought or tried to buy. So why not do the same for lawn care equipment, only makes sense. Take a look at some different lawn care businesses in your area, see what there running, ask some questions. Personally I think Honda is probably the top mower on the market and Toro is right beside it and with Toro starting to use the Kawasaki engines Honda may start lagging behind.

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Yes Ric, that's why I bought an Exmark. The local pro landscapers all used them and highly recommended their ZTRs.

Bomba said:

I read somewhere that Toro owns the exmark company, which surprised me.

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That's correct. This is what Ric said in post #12 in the following thread: http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/mower-buying-pricing/13364-zero-turn-info-2.html

"OK If the Dixie chopper dealer also has Toro and Exmark and you're looking at them Buy the Toro. The reason I say that is that Toro owns and makes the Exmark mowers and they're basically the same mower and the Toro is generally speaking price wise some what cheaper than the Exmark.
Example if you look at the Toro Grandstand and compare it to the Exmark Vantage they will be the same mower except for the deck.
Toro uses there Turbo Force deck and Exmark Uses the own deck and some of the exmark will have black paint."

Bomba said:

Yes Ric, that's why I bought an Exmark. The local pro landscapers all used them and highly recommended their ZTRs.

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If you purchased the Exmark you got a good one. The Exmark is a great machine, the guys that do most of the commercial work here in the area use the Exmark. Most of the guys that are mowing or doing residential work are using the smaller Exmarks or the Toro mowers like the Z Master 5 or 6000 units and there are those who prefer the Grandstand :smile:. My next ZTR is going to be a Z Master 5000.

2strokes are being replaced because they are dirty engines. In the eyes of the EPA. Stihl can have some dirty engines but they have to have so many more clean (4mix) engines. All the 2 strokes won't go away this year. It will take a little while. And Stihl is the leader in this category. Every other company will follow suit after a while

Exmark fan said:

2strokes are being replaced because they are dirty engines. In the eyes of the EPA. Stihl can have some dirty engines but they have to have so many more clean (4mix) engines. All the 2 strokes won't go away this year. It will take a little while. And Stihl is the leader in this category. Every other company will follow suit after a while

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But Stihl dont always make their own engines.

If you strip down certain engines on a Stihl product they use different engine manufacturers.
1 name is Tecomec (Italian company owned by Emak who make Efco or Oleo-mac product) who produce 2 stroke engines for different manufacturers.
Another is a German company called Mal. Stihl like to buy off of German companys.
Basically OEM's buy a product line for a certain time and the engine manufacturer cannot give that line to any other OEM. The change in line up could be as simple as a different carb (Zama for Stihl and Walbro for others)
Another OEM buys another line with the same engine and again a different carb and so on.
Lots of OEM are using the same engine but set up differently.

Stihl were always good at making Chainsaws but struggled on the engine side.

What other brand runs a 4mix engine?

Shindaiwa has what they call the Hybrid 4, which some say Stihl copied for their 4mix. This article should give you an idea how the two stroke hybrids evolved.

Dirty Little Engines Get Cleaner For years two-strokes spewed blue smoke. Then the pollution police sent the manufacturers to the drawing boards. - May 13, 2002

Shindaiwa is good stuff the... h4 doesnt stack up against stihl 4 mix...just my opinion ...hybrid 2 strokes??? They need to leave the 2 cycles alone....if they got rid of them i would flip out. Thats all i like to mess with.........there aint many i havent worked on

themowerking20 said:

Shindaiwa is good stuff the... h4 doesnt stack up against stihl 4 mix...just my opinion ...hybrid 2 strokes??? They need to leave the 2 cycles alone....if they got rid of them i would flip out. Thats all i like to mess with.........there aint many i havent worked on

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You will see more and more company's following the 4 mix or 4 stroke revolution. The 2 strokes will be phased out in time, maybe not this year or even next but it will happen. My advice would be if you have a piece of equipment go down and you need to replace it buy the new technology and forget the old.

Or collect your 2 cycles ...they may be worth something one day ....lol ....im not giving in to 4stroke_2cycles yet....only advantage ive seen on 4mix you can run it upside down ...when you cant do that with a true 4stroke that has oil in the crankcase ....i know emissions emissions emissions....it makes sense ...but to me.. bullbologna..ha

This is the first time I have heard of a 4 mix engine. Looks like its a 4 cycle engine that has no oil in the crank case but runs with oil mixed in the gas. I can't see why it would run any cleaner then a 2 cycle and still would be heaver. I guess time will tell how it will work.

reynoldston said:

This is the first time I have heard of a 4 mix engine. Looks like its a 4 cycle engine that has no oil in the crank case but runs with oil mixed in the gas. I can't see why it would run any cleaner then a 2 cycle and still would be heaver. I guess time will tell how it will work.

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I can't believe you've never heard of the Stihl 4 Mix engine. It's a four-stroke engine that combines the advantages of two-stroke and four-stroke units, fewer emissions, lower weight, higher torque and runs on the regular 50.1 mixture, no crankcase. It was introduced by Stihl I believe in 2002 so it's well proven.

themowerking20 said:

Snapper all the way for the push mower.....and try a stihl fs70 trimmer its pro grade and it aint 4 mix

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I too have an FS 70rc weedeater.Beastly.I let my neighbor use it yesterday (5/8/18) for a small project,when he finished all he could say is :"I've GOTTA get one of these".More power than he expected.Got the job done and more.He's about 6'2.

All of this is really a case of smoke & mirrors, particularly the statistics.
The " houshold" figures exclude pubic transport , busses, trucks, trains & jet aircraft.
It includes cars mowers electricity & gas including that used to generate electricity.
Now 5% of that is a very long bow.

They tried the same BS down here and thankfully got shot down in flames when asked about the exclusions from the measurements.

They even tried to make things worse by using "week end " emissions when a lot of cars are at home all day and the mower & trimmers are out being used.

Even at 1% it sound really good, till you take into account what they excluded.

A 747 jet taking off uses about 2 gallons of fuel a second for about 5 to 10 minutes till it gets to cruise level.
At take off the engines are about 90% efficient ( at best ) so that means of the 1,200 gallons of jet 1 pouring into the engines about 120 gallons go in one end and come out the other unless they are using after burners which they can not use if they want the houses below to keep their tiles on the roof.

Now there are around 70,000 jet flights / day in the USA so roughly 8,000,000 gallons of unburned fuel each and every day from jet travel that works out at 56,000,000 gallons of unburned fuel a week.

Now there are about 118,000,000 houses in the USA, so to be emitting the same amount of unburned fuel as avaition alone each house would have to pour out a tad less than 1/2 gallon of two stroke fuel into a bowl and let it evaporate.
Now very few of those house holds would use anything like 1/2 gallon of 2 stroke a week, let alone having a 1/2 gallon pass through the hand held device unburned.

And I have not bothered to add busses , trucks, shipping or industry to the calculations so even if you use the BS 5% figure, it is 5% of 0.01% total emissions or in laymans terms SFA.

Now making things burn cleaner is in itself a good idea, I don't particularly like paying for fuel that gets blown out the exhaust or burned in a after burner ( catalytic converter to hide it's true function ) that does not produce any power for my equipment. But don't fool yourself into believing it will make any measurable difference to any pollution apart from noise.
Then on top of that there is the inbuilt pollution that gets generated i making the equipment that will not last as long thus require more frequent replacement and the logistic pollution in getting it from where it was made to your door.

So you see it is really a fools errand to make it look like a lot of overpaid but well meaning beurocrats are actually earning their keep ( which they are not )

Bert,BERT,take a breath.GOD knows i'm not into engineering,but i kept up to a point.Take a breath.It's a forum.Everyone has an opinion bruh.It's not that serious....breathe.

The problem is if one does not take a stand and point out hyprocrosity then the total BS gets taken as truth and people get walked over.
So a bannar headline proclaims that "Hand held equipment pollution reduced by 95%" and it looks great and we all feel OK about paying 20% more for them because they are so much "better for the enviroment" when in reality it makes about the same amount benefit as urinating in the Pacific Ocean raises world ocean levels.

The entire article, while containing some truths is basically a lie from start to finish and a total misrepresentation of the actual state of the enviromentm and enviromental protection
We had a public forum quite some time ago when a consummer group claimed a great victory that the last locally made mower engine would go out of production because it was a filthy 2 stroke engine,'Unfortunately for them there were actually some engineers in the audience who very clearly established that it would take 15 years of normal use for the Briggs on a bowl replacement to catch catch up to the Victa because of the embedded pollution in the manufacture of the Briggs engine and its shipment to Australia.
And that was if and only if the Briggs on a Bowl maintianed it's new engine level of emissions.
However the emission compliance of the new engines only last for 5 years, by which time they are so worn that they are burning 1/3 the amount of oil that the 2 strokes do.
By 10 years the Briggs on a bowl is burning more oil than the Ecotorque 2 stroke @ a 100:1 ratio and has reached the end of it's design life.
Now the 2 stroke has a design life of 30 years and when run to the end of it's design life would have been responsible for 2/3 the total emissions that the Briggs on a bowl would be responsible for if it lasted 30 years.
If it was replaced at 15 years this blows out to 1/2.
If the Briggs only last the 10 year design life the the 2 stroke would be 1/4 of the total pollution from using the 4 strokes over a 30 year period.
Now this assumes that the 4 strokes do not get significantly cleaner and the foundries that cast the alloy parts remelt the old mowers to make the new and are powered using current coal fired electricity.
A pound of aluminium has 20 times the embedded pollution of a pound of cast iron.
So a modern "clean" all alloy engine is pollution wise increadably dirty even before the first time it gets fired up.

It is easy and quite lazy just to run the exhaust through a spectrometer and claim one engine is cleaner than another.