Let's talk about blade sharpening?

Bange

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Well, changing a little focus on the waste or not of time in cleaning, I've been observing the use of a MAG-1000 or referencing the height measurement in relation to the ground (MAG-0001...lol...)
It is obvious that in any case, if the measurements are identical, this does not guarantee the straightness of the blade, but rather that the tips are equidistant from the ground (or the MAG-1000 gauge) and in this case, even if they are like an arrow bow, they will not be unbalanced or straight, but perfect for use.
Perfil das lâminas.jpg

Case 1: Blade straight and balanced blade, good for use.
Case 2: Blade not straight, but balanced and good for use.
Case 3: Blade extremely not straight, but balanced and good for use.
Case 4: Blade not straight, not balanced and not good for use.
Case 5: Blade not straight, not balanced and not good for use.

Does anyone disagree?
 

TobyU

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There's no question that there's a lot of "perceived" value/quality in all lines of business. As I mentioned in my last post... car dealers offering free car washes. There are people who fixate on that and insist on going to that dealer for a repair vs. saving $hundreds$ at a private mechanic and using the savings to get their car professionally detailed. Look at the $BILLIONS$ spent on TV advertising to convince people to buy stuff.

I haven't been sharpening blades long, but in that time out of a couple hundred people I've had maybe 8 bring me their mowers so I could remove the blade. The mowers have typically been pretty dirty. I try to remember to show them the blade before & after so they can see that they're actually getting something for their money and not just out $10 and taking the same dirty mower back home.

Many people who have brought me their blades have commented on how much different they look when I hand them back to them. Again, perceived value. I don't think the blades will cut any better being clean vs. dirty, but maybe that customer does or perceives some value by the blades being cleaned, and I'd like them to come back the next year for another sharpening. I have the time to do it, so I do. If I had 20 people a day dropping off blades that would be a different story.
That's so weird that you can have a majority of people who can and will remove the blade and bring them to you because most people who can do that will go ahead and sharpen it in themselves. In a large majority of areas in the country people are not going to remove them but they will certainly throw the mower in the back of their SUV and bring the whole thing out to get it done but they certainly aren't going to try to find a ranch to remove it or get their hands dirty.
Where is this area you are located that the vast majority of your customers like it seems 95% plus remove the blades and bring them to you??
I've been doing this professionally and commercially with a storefront location for almost 13 years and I don't even get 10 people a year that bring me a blade off of the mower but I will say I only specialize and mainly only do walk behind 20 to 22 in push as self-propelled mowers now as that keeps me plenty busy.
There is a larger percentage of people who want to bring you just the blades that are off of a riding mower or zero turn or the larger walk behind commercial style mowers 36 to 60 in.

I even offer two separate prices whether it's on the mower or off the mower and hardly anyone takes it off to bring it to me even though they would save $5.
It's not worth it to them and even though it is a little bit more of a headache to transport the whole mower, pretty much everyone in this area drives an SUV and they will fit in the vehicle or they just throw it in the trunk and leave the handle sticking out etc.
 

TobyU

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Well, changing a little focus on the waste or not of time in cleaning, I've been observing the use of a MAG-1000 or referencing the height measurement in relation to the ground (MAG-0001...lol...)
It is obvious that in any case, if the measurements are identical, this does not guarantee the straightness of the blade, but rather that the tips are equidistant from the ground (or the MAG-1000 gauge) and in this case, even if they are like an arrow bow, they will not be unbalanced or straight, but perfect for use.
View attachment 64250

Case 1: Blade straight and balanced blade, good for use.
Case 2: Blade not straight, but balanced and good for use.
Case 3: Blade extremely not straight, but balanced and good for use.
Case 4: Blade not straight, not balanced and not good for use.
Case 5: Blade not straight, not balanced and not good for use.

Does anyone disagree?
Yes, I extremely disagree.
You could bring me multiple examples of all of those blades and I could take a push mower and I could put them on and clock them around in the two or more different positions depending on the blade design of the blade adapter until I found the smoothest most vibration free position after they were roughly balanced and then you can cut some test grass.
You can then try your best to find a difference on how the test grass lawn looks after you cut them and I can absolutely guarantee you that I will fool you time and time again and you will be unable to find any systematic pattern or to accurately determine which blades cut which path!

These are the simple facts that have been proven by actual real world results and seen with my own eyes time and time again.
People can believe whatever they want like this or that makes a major difference or whatever but in reality it typically doesn't and they usually won't believe it unless you prove it to them.
Then they will go back to tell you some story of one time when something different occurred for them and that's just how they've been doing it ever since and they still feel better doing it that way.

Now, to further humor people, in several of those situations with those blades I would gauge them where they match up on the side of the deck by rotating them around then I would bend that blade back into shape to where it's equal again whether or not the actual curve in the middle was straight or not the end tip and most of the last six to eight inches would be.
I have done this so many times I've lost track and it doesn't make a squat of difference in the quality of cut.
 

TobyU

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There's no question that there's a lot of "perceived" value/quality in all lines of business. As I mentioned in my last post... car dealers offering free car washes. There are people who fixate on that and insist on going to that dealer for a repair vs. saving $hundreds$ at a private mechanic and using the savings to get their car professionally detailed. Look at the $BILLIONS$ spent on TV advertising to convince people to buy stuff.

I haven't been sharpening blades long, but in that time out of a couple hundred people I've had maybe 8 bring me their mowers so I could remove the blade. The mowers have typically been pretty dirty. I try to remember to show them the blade before & after so they can see that they're actually getting something for their money and not just out $10 and taking the same dirty mower back home.

Many people who have brought me their blades have commented on how much different they look when I hand them back to them. Again, perceived value. I don't think the blades will cut any better being clean vs. dirty, but maybe that customer does or perceives some value by the blades being cleaned, and I'd like them to come back the next year for another sharpening. I have the time to do it, so I do. If I had 20 people a day dropping off blades that would be a different story.
I would like another side discussion or at least comment on this perceived value.
I pretty much hate it because I feel that in most cases it's just a waste of money and a way to overpriced things and con people into spending money for them.
Multi-billion dollar industries have been created for crap that shouldn't even exist because they can convince someone of some value or some greater value than what the service they're actually providing is or product.
The latest one I've been complaining about for just about 10 days, because I'm just getting started, is trash can washing you have got to be kidding me!!
They're sending out full color postcard flyers and the large ones to get people to spend $30 to be set up on a every other week or whatever it is schedule to have this I'll admit, beautiful awesome hot water steam cleaning brush trash can washer truck show up and wash out your trash can.
The point is it's all ridiculous and most people don't care. It's a trash can. It smells! That's why you close the lid or, you leave the lid open for a couple days or when it rains after they empty it and let it air out or you stop way before this because these two sentences and the thought process involved is far more waste of time than anybody needs to worry about their stupid trash can.
Now they've created this Hughes industry but I guarantee you is up and coming for doing this.
Proceed value, I don't really think there is a value in it because I think it's unnecessary but I will admit if it were going to be done I would certainly want to make sure I was there every time to watch it because that's kind of the coolest thing involved because it is fairly high-tech and automated and not just some dude with a scrub brush and some soap and a water hose cleaning it out like I did one or two times in my early young days when I had first and recently bought a house and had a trash can.
I guess it's a ownership ego thing and maybe they're just catering to those people but I know a lot of old people will do it too because sometimes they are the ones with disposable income that don't miss frivolous things spent like this.
I just don't see this as a need and my personal opinion things that aren't needed shouldn't be done.
Things shouldn't cost more than what they accurately and fairly have to cost to simply maintain and make a decent but still small profit margin because and most things, money should be made on volume providing a good quality and low priced Fair service for people and not a high profit margin for the few people you can't sucker into doing something.
I guess I'm just old and bitter but I've been this way for a long time so it's certainly not old age that is done it.
 

Bange

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Yes, I extremely disagree.
You could bring me multiple examples of all of those blades and I could take a push mower and I could put them on and clock them around in the two or more different positions depending on the blade design of the blade adapter until I found the smoothest most vibration free position after they were roughly balanced and then you can cut some test grass.
You can then try your best to find a difference on how the test grass lawn looks after you cut them and I can absolutely guarantee you that I will fool you time and time again and you will be unable to find any systematic pattern or to accurately determine which blades cut which path!

These are the simple facts that have been proven by actual real world results and seen with my own eyes time and time again.
People can believe whatever they want like this or that makes a major difference or whatever but in reality it typically doesn't and they usually won't believe it unless you prove it to them.
Then they will go back to tell you some story of one time when something different occurred for them and that's just how they've been doing it ever since and they still feel better doing it that way.

Now, to further humor people, in several of those situations with those blades I would gauge them where they match up on the side of the deck by rotating them around then I would bend that blade back into shape to where it's equal again whether or not the actual curve in the middle was straight or not the end tip and most of the last six to eight inches would be.
I have done this so many times I've lost track and it doesn't make a squat of difference in the quality of cut.
Wait a moment... I wasn't talking about sharpening, I was talking about vibration or (axial) imbalance.
For me cases 1, 2 and 3 are perfect for use... cases 4 and 5 are unusable.
How do you fix cases 4 and 5?
 

7394

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............................................
 

slomo

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My blades are better than yours. I sharpen the best way on Earth. What up ya'll.
 

TobyU

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Wait a moment... I wasn't talking about sharpening, I was talking about vibration or (axial) imbalance.
For me cases 1, 2 and 3 are perfect for use... cases 4 and 5 are unusable.
How do you fix cases 4 and 5?
Why do you determine that four and five are unusable?
I don't really care what goes on between the middle of the blade and the tip of the blade as long as the tip and most of the cutting surface is relatively flat and parallel to the ground and ends up being at the same height above the ground which is what I check when I see where each tip of the blade touches a spot in relation to the deck as I rotated around.
I don't care if there's a way or whatever in there and it very well may cause some imbalance well, let's just say it will cost some imbalance and some vibration but you already have a lot of vibration and harmonics going on in a mower anyways so it's just a matter of how much or how much extra or what is okay or what is tolerable or what is noticeable.
As I mentioned, I have tweaked many blades bending them etc and even twisting them back that had become twisted. It takes advice and a pretty sturdy work bench and a pipe wrench with a pretty long cheater bar on it so you can twist the end of the blade that has been twisted upward or downward because it hit something.
Then I have been plenty of them so the tip and the majority of the length of the blade from the center hole will be at the same height as the other side when you rotate it around.

Now here's the kicker on balance vibrations and all that.
If you have a mower that is hit something enough to bend the blade putting a new blade on or even putting a new blade on that's perfectly balanced, because not all are, isn't necessarily the fix.
Crankshafts really don't get bent as much as they get twisted even though we call it a bent crankshaft.
However, when you look at one and spend it or use a dial indicator mounted on a magnet etc and you see that it is wobbling in other words moving somewhere out of its small circle that it should rotate in then you know you have some damage to it.

Sometimes an old blade or an imbalanced blade can make up for vibrations like that and make a more smoother!
I know, we're talking Frankenstein at this point and it's probably nuts to even worry about that and I rarely do.
It's not like I keep old bent blades around just to try this however just because the crankshaft is bent or twisted does not mean the mower is unusable.
Let's don't even talk about trying to straighten the crank out but you should all know that at one time this was standard operating procedure and allowed an authorized by Major engine manufacturers like Briggs & stratton..
They made a machine specifically for it and other people have built their own. You were supposed to stamp an s on the crank in a certain spot once this has been done because it was never supposed to be done a second time.
Others have just used a huge hammer and a towel or a block of wood and beat the heck out of it trying to get it a little bit closer to spending in a solid circle instead of wobbly but the same people have also destroy the number of engines cracked mounting ears off the bottom of them and other things from doing this.

But the point is an engine can have only a very minor noticeable bend or twist or wobble in the crankshaft and can vibrate like MAD with any blade and be totally unusable whereas another engine can have a very good deal of bend and wobble to the crank and amazingly be so smooth you can't tell there's a problem!

This is why I always tell people you don't know it until you try it and you can't just make generalized comments about the way things are always going to be because there is a lot more going on in that blade spinning down there and that crankshaft at those RPMs then we can ever comprehend in real time.

So therefore sometimes just spinning a blade over 180° around makes a world of difference!!
What I started doing this in high numbers and found this out for myself I couldn't believe what a difference it made and I showed a bunch of people I work with.
I started up The Mower and have them put their hands on the handle and feel for it and they said yeah feels fine.
Then I let them watch me clock the blade around 180 and fire it back up and you could barely hold on to the handle and they were amazed too.
Then you have lights with five different ways to clock them on the star pattern so you have to try all of them.
Then with the Honda with the two blades you have four different ways you can install the blades so you have to try all of them too.

Anytime a mower has some vibration in it I will always try to find the smoothest sweet spot where it's it's absolute smoothest because often it makes the mower unnoticeable with any problem and makes it quite okay and safe to use whereas other installations might make it vibrate enough to make it annoying and buzzing your hands and excessive vibration of course can be dangerous.

So I would think the average person would say that any of the scenarios with event blade is unusable unless it's fixed whereas I don't see any reason for four and five to be any more unusable than the other ones..
I would tweak any of them and get them where they match up at the same point on the deck and look relatively straight and symmetrical and check for vibration and be totally happy with them.
 

Bange

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Why do you determine that four and five are unusable?

Because vibration occurs and vibration is not good in mechanical parts rotating.
I don't know of any technique to untwist without causing breakage or change in hardness (by heat).
I saw now that it is possible with carbon steel, but if it were boron steel, it would be impossible.
 

Pstreicher

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My 4 cents on sharpening.

I use a hand file myself. Takes a few minutes to get a blade back to fighting weight. New files obviously work faster than older dull ones. I can pull a file from the tool box, few slaps on both sides and I'm done. Not looking for shaving sharp blades here. Just a good bevel clean up.

No reason to fire up some super expensive electric grinder. These are lawn mowers, not the space shuttle (Taryl). I can have a blade sharpened roughly in the same time as pulling a grinder out and plugging it in. Look at the bevel, set your sharpening angle and finally remve TOO MUCH material. Now you are into balancing for quite a while...... And your blades all have smiles to them now compared to simple hand files. More grinding to correct the smiles. Now you've just removed a bunch of life from that blade.

Summation, you burn through blades a lot faster with grinders than with hand files. Most people don't even check for sharpness when done. They see a shiny new bevel and think the blade is sharp.
How many of us have machine shop training and file skills? I am with you on this. Only when the blade goes too long without filing do I need to pull out the ole grinding wheel and motor to true up that blunted edge. Then, a few strokes to smooth the cut and knock the burrs off. Yes, to a finely cut green lawn, and yes, I am a homeowner, not a business.
 
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