Kohler CV20 (1998) No Spark - part spliced between kill wire & ground (need ID)

[ILENGINE]

Sometime along the line the spark gap has been updated to .030, because at one time the gap was .040 which was odd, and I think most people tended to ignore anyway.

The service manual could always be wrong too. But as you said 0.040 does sound odd; unless, I working an automobile engine.

I just got kicked in the tuss by a 2015 JD repair manual that was updated a year later after I brought my copy, current manual was publish in 2020. It cost me $200 and a week delay while waited for the tool that didn't work. Now I got a tool that I probably never use and then I may need it tomorrow.

It is good that most my manuals are PDFs so I add readable notes about changes or about how something is done differently.

Was looking at my old Champion plug book this morning references something else and happen to notice that some of the plugs listed for certain Kohler engines showed the .040 gap requirement.

 

[StarTech]

I think I see the problem . You appear to have the wrongs coils. I got in hand the 24 584 45-s (superseded to 24 584 01-s CDI Fixed). The plug wire is on the lower left with the kill tab on top with a plug lead that is approximately 9". The ones you imaged have the coil wire on the lower left but also has the kill tab on the same side.

24 584 45-s (24 584 01-s)

 

[DC1998]

ILENGINE,

Initially, my printed Dixie Chopper Owner's manual states 0.040" for spark plug gap and I have used that for the last 22 years and engine worked. I have regapped new plugs down to 0.030" over the last few weeks as recommeded earlier in this thread.




Star Tech,

You are correct in regard to the NEW coils I have (kill tab is on the same side as the plug lead). I noticed that when I first got the parts but you can see that often the part numbers are updated (changed) as time goes along and UPdated parts are sometimes different in construction. The new aftermarket starter that I got has 1 fewer teeth than the original starter (In only 1 place did I see that the new starter that I got actually is an Acceptable starter for my mower.) I had no idea initially that this aftermarket starter had fewer teeth. It engages smooths as if nothing was changed. It seems to operate just like the 10-tooth starter that I had initially when it was cranking the engine. The different outside left me with no place to install the black cylinder (tilt switch) and that's how it initially caused me NO SPARK condition.

There are NO part numbers of any kind on the new coils that I received, but see below on the part numbers I supposedly received.
The part number on the boxes of the NEW coils are CO41 (ab).
Plus, I am getting spark. How can you have spark and no combustion?? (I don't understand that fact if the spark is actually the problem. Please help me understand.)

Is it the difference in coil or that fact I don't have the kill tab closer to me on Cylinder #1 that is changing the quality of the spark to stop the engine from starting.
Do I need to flip the coil on #1 so that the kill tab is up? If so, how do I orient the coil on #2 (kill tab down?). The original coils were oriented opposite one another with regard to the kill tab. My printed Kohler manual states that the spark plug lead needs to be oriented to the outside (I'm interpreting that to mean away from the other cylinder,, toward the front of the engine, not just away from the flywheel). It does show the kill tab towards me on cylinder #1. So, I thought the spark plug lead orientation was more important.
I guess I will try to flip the coils If it is actually possible due to the length of the spark plug lead and see what happens.

I would like to confirm that my NEW coils simply won't work properly no matter how they are installed, so that I can return them.
If I tell the seller that I'm getting spark, you know what he will say: The coils work as promised.

My guess is that the original coils will work (as noted earlier I recognized no spark and that was apparenlty due to my improper orientation of the black cylinder that one of you identified as a tilt switch and it seems to operate properly.

Any help and explanations of why I have spark and no combustion would be greatly appreciated.
(I simply want to learn so I get my mower working and so I don't make future mistakes.)

Thanks,
Mark


I got these coils on eBay with the following assertions:

Product Specification: Ignition Coil Fits for KOHLER 24-584-01S 24 584 45-S CH18 CH20 CH22 CH23 CH620 CH621 Replacement For Part Number: Kohler：24 584 01-S, 2458401-S, 24-584-01-S;24-584-45S Fitting the following Models ： **Fits for KOHLER CH18 CH20 CH22 CH23 CH620 CH621 CH640 CH641 CH670 CH680 CH682 CH730 CH732 CH740 CH750 **Fits for KOHLER CV17 CV18 CV20 CV22 CV23 CV620 CV624 CV640 CV670 CV675 CV680 CV682 CV730 CV732 CV742 **Fits for KOHLER SV710 SV715 SV720 SV725 SV730 SV810 SV820 SV830

 

[bertsmobile1]

anything written in an ebay add cab be taken with a grain of salt
Note it says "fits" and not works with > ,
So if it bolted up to the block ,the plug lead can get to the plug & the kill wire hooks up then it "FITS"
Does not mean it will work.
When there are dozens of real mower parts suppliers like Jacks, PartsTree, Messicks , Pro parts direct, etc etc etc
Why O why do people insist on buying into the ebay fake or faulty parts lottery

 

[DC1998]

Thank You.
I have had good experience for the most part and very quick service. The threat of negative feedback in a public setting counts for something.

Since I had spark, I thought I had a broken key (bad timing) like was suggested in this thread, so I ordered it before I took the flywheel off. I'm over 65 and don't quite have the motivation to work all night anymore. I got a genuine flywheel key on Saturday (July 2) at about 2 pm after only ordering it on after 10 pm on Wed. Jun. 30 (about 42 hours after ordering it at night). No, it was not promised by Saturday (It was suppose to arrive on Wednesday, June 7). Shipping for the parts as mentioned above were asking for $10 to ship this key and it was not expedited shipping. That sounds HIGH. I didn't pay for any expedited shipping. The parts came in plastic bags that had the typical Kohler packaging. Often ebay sellers for these type of parts ask for you model number and spec on the name plate to ensure the correct parts. I barely had the flywheel off the engine when the part arrived on Saturday.

How am I getting spark but no combustion?
(Can you really have spark and no explosion or is the spark plug test light the issue here? Can the light really light up if no spark? Any suggestions on style of test light?)

I just bought the regular gas about 1 (now about 2 weeks ago from the gas station I take my car. I have gotten gas in this for my mower for that last 22 years.

I'm on my way to replace the New coils with the original, since I'm near 100% the original coils were OK.
(remember, I did not orient the tilt switch after installing my starter motor and didn't know that until I still had no spark with the new coils.).

I'll update later today hopefully.

Thank You all for contributing.
Mark

 

[DC1998]

FIRE, WORKS! (I guess a day late for the 4th of July.)

I cleaned up my old coils and put them in just like they were using the same business card I used to install the New coils and it started right up.
This is the first time I had any indication of combustion and it wasn't little with the old coils back in.

StarTech,

THANK YOU for pointing out that the kill tabs being on the same side on the new coils was a problem for orientation and for correct part. Sometimes the parts look very different and work fine, but without much experience it is hard to realize that it is a problem. I'm amazed that my starter has fewer teeth than the old one and it works smoothly. If I had know the # of teeth were different, I wouldn't have ordered it, no matter what the parts supplier said. That seems very odd.

Flipping the new coilds didn't make it work even though the kill tabs were in the recommended locations. Of course that put the spark plugs leads at their limit.
I'm glad I put the old coils back on. (I just lightly sanded off the rust of the old coils to ensure good contact to ground and proper gap between magnet and coil.)

I measured the ohms from the kill tab to ground for the old coils and it was 750-790 for the 2 old coils, whereas the New coils were at 149-150 ohms. Could that have bled off some of the spark energy lighting up my test light, but not really enough to make a spark in the combustion chamber????

Hopefully, I can get my money back if the seller sent me the correct coils for my engine. If he actually sent me the wrong part, I wouldn't mind having a spare set of coils.


bertsmobile1,
The ebay ad not only said fits my application but that it was also a replacement for the part number (updated one) shown by Kohler and various parts sites.
I apologize for the error in shipping time that I stated, it was not just under 2 days, it was just under 3 days (Jun. 30 to July 3 (Saturday).


Thank You All for your interest in helping. It made a difference.
Of course it is raining here now, so I can't use the mower.

Anyone know how to stop the rain for a few days?

Mark

 

[StarTech]

I don't but if I was working the other man it never failed to rain the week I was on vacation. I even tried lever the state but it just followed me and stay dry at home until showed back up. Weird Now that I work for myself 6 days it seems to rain on my day off. Yard is currently a foot tall but I going to try mid week mowing this week at part of my yard.

 

[bertsmobile1]

The machine that makes the coils will make a number say 100 or so of bad ones while it is being set up then make 10,000 good ones till the wire runs out so the next 50 will be doubtful and so on.
This is standard for mass produced parts
They all get tested as they come off the end of the line and the best go into the bin for Kohler and get branded then put into boxes
The not quite as good ones go into another bin and get sold to knock off engine makers
The total dud ones get sold to a remanufacturer who tries to fix them then sells them into the parts stream
What he can't fix gets sold as scrap then seems to end up on ebay or amazon where the vendor has no legal liabilities.
People who sell scrap as good deliberately usually have multiple accounts so when people stop buying from "goodgoodpart" because of the negative feedback they buy the ones that are 50¢ dearer from "bestgoodparts" who is the same vendor and so on.
Now some might be good some might be bad , the vendor might know they are bad or just might be reselling from another supplier & have no idea because he is a surplus parts retailer and just makes an add according to what he is told but in most cases the adds are made by a third party professional add writer who cuts & pastes from other adds .

Despite the fact that every government authority keeps warning people that "if it looks too good to be true it most likely is not true" every year millions of people get ripped off because they are being too cheap and believe that is they did not get whatever they were looking for at the absolute cheapest price on the planet they are getting ripped off by big business profiteering at their expense.

These people come through my gate almost daily and after the first couple of years my sympathy for cheapskate idiots has evaporated
Most leave faulty product in hand grumbling under their breath but if they wand me to turn a sows ear into a silk purse they have to pay what it really costs + a reasonable profit .

 

[StarTech]

I may only been this line of work for 12 yrs now but I definitely lern to leave those RipBay and fly by night Amazon third party dealers alone. The trouble with the parts and the wasted time are just not worth to me. Now that I finally got a couple good distributors (it 9 nine years to get here) I do get decent prices on parts.

Now this doesn't mean there are no good aftermarket dealers. Stens, Oregon, and Rotary are fairly good companies to deal with as they stand by their products. But if you find a price that looks too good to true it is warning sign to ran away as faster you can.