Ignition Coil Gapping

[Whalensdad]

Doesn't matter. CV15 or CV16 the blocks are the same so the 12 584 04-S will mount regardless. It might not run right but the coil will still mount, it would just be out of time. It would probably seem to run fine until you got it under a load. It would then be low on power. The CV16 was just a CV15 with a variable timed ignition module and the keyway cut in a different spot on the flywheel. Are you using genuine Kohler parts?

It didn't have genuine Kohler parts, hence the Tecumsah coil. Since I don't know what model this engine really is and what was changed, it is hard to determine what genuine parts I should get. It ran fine using the Tecumsah coil. The engine had the stator going to part 12 584 12 (see images). I assumed this was the rectifier. I swapped this with the new type rectifier because I was only getting 12 or so volts out and it wasn't charging my battery.

 

[StarTech]

That isn't a voltage regular but is a Digital Speed Advance module for the ignition system. It currently superseded to the DSAI kit PN 12 707 01-S.

So if you installed a voltage regulator in its place it will not work.

 

[VegetiveSteam]

The 12 584 12-S isn't a voltage regulator but is called a Speed Advance Module, sometimes a Spark Advance Module which says you have a CV16. This still doesn't explain why your replacement coils won't mount other than they aren't the correct replacement for a 12 584 04-S.

If your engine still has the original flywheel the correct Kohler part you need is 12 707 01-S. This is a DSAI conversion kit that eliminates the original no longer available Speed Advance Module and ignition module and replaces them with one ignition coil that has the advance built into it and it no longer needs any battery voltage which actually never went to the ignition coil but to the Speed Advance Module and in turn that module sent a lower voltage signal to the coil to trigger it. This kit will only need the white wire connected to it to kill the ignition.

 

[Whalensdad]

That isn't a voltage regular but is a Digital Speed Advance module for the ignition system. It currently superseded to the DSAI kit PN 12 707 01-S.
View attachment 62634
So if you installed a voltage regulator in its place it will not work.

The 12 584 12-S isn't a voltage regulator but is called a Speed Advance Module, sometimes a Spark Advance Module which says you have a CV16. This still doesn't explain why your replacement coils won't mount other than they aren't the correct replacement for a 12 584 04-S.

If your engine still has the original flywheel the correct Kohler part you need is 12 707 01-S. This is a DSAI conversion kit that eliminates the original no longer available Speed Advance Module and ignition module and replaces them with one ignition coil that has the advance built into it and it no longer needs any battery voltage which actually never went to the ignition coil but to the Speed Advance Module and in turn that module sent a lower voltage signal to the coil to trigger it. This kit will only need the white wire connected to it to kill the ignition.

I really appreciate all of the back and forth. You both are really helping me sort this out. Let's take a step back one second so I can get my head around this.
1. How was the Digital Speed Advance module originally wired in from the manufacturer? I ask because it was only attached from the mounting bolt of the coil to the black lead as a ground. The stator connected to the other dark wire and the yellow, and the Red went to the pigtail to supply power to the mower. The other wire to the coil came from the pigtail.
2. There was no other rectifier, so did the DSAI also provide rectification of the voltage? If not, how was the rectification taking place?
3. I hooked up the old coil to the mower and new rectifier and was able to start the mower. It was surging as it usually did, so I'm rebuilding the carb, but otherwise it started and ran.
4. I do not know if the unit has the original fly wheel, but the 12 584 04-S definitely don't fit.

 

[VegetiveSteam]

I really appreciate all of the back and forth. You both are really helping me sort this out. Let's take a step back one second so I can get my head around this.
1. How was the Digital Speed Advance module originally wired in from the manufacturer? I ask because it was only attached from the mounting bolt of the coil to the black lead as a ground. The stator connected to the other dark wire and the yellow, and the Red went to the pigtail to supply power to the mower. The other wire to the coil came from the pigtail.
2. There was no other rectifier, so did the DSAI also provide rectification of the voltage? If not, how was the rectification taking place?
3. I hooked up the old coil to the mower and new rectifier and was able to start the mower. It was surging as it usually did, so I'm rebuilding the carb, but otherwise it started and ran.
4. I do not know if the unit has the original fly wheel, but the 12 584 04-S definitely don't fit.

1.The Speed Advance Module has 5 wires. Red was key switched battery voltage. Black was ground. White was the kill lead. The other two wires, probably yellow and brown, went to the ignition coil. One spade terminal was slightly smaller than the other so you couldn't hook it up wrong.
2. The ignition system and charging system are not connected in anyway to each other. They operate completely independent of each other. The 12 584 12-S has nothing to do with the charging system.
If you engage the blades via a manual lever and not an electric clutch then there is probably no voltage regulator. If all the system needs to do is charge the battery and especially if this is a Sears unit, it is probably using a 3 amp unregulated charging system. The voltage gets rectified by a diode in the black wire. It's hard to see since it's in the stator. Typically there would be three wires coming off the stator under the flywheel. Black, White and green. The black wire if I am remembering correctly is the battery charging lead. The check the system that wire need to be disconnected so there is no load on it. Then running the engine at full speed you would check the DC voltage coming off that black wire. It should be a minimum of 20 volts dc. There is no maximum so it could be more than 20 and that is fine. All we care about is a minimum of 20 volts dc. The white wire is for headlights if the unit is so equipped and the green wire is the brake wire which if there, should stop the engine from rotating with 5 seconds of shutting off the mower.
3. Started and running is a good thing.
4. I don't know what brand of coils you got to replace the genuine Kohler 12 584 04-S but they are not correct as you know. The genuine Kohler 12 584 04-S will mount. Like I stated, it may not run correctly but it will mount trust me. If the brand you got says it replaces the Kohler 12 584 04-S they are wrong. Kohler didn't change the coil mounting bosses when they went to the CV16 with Smart Spark. Both the CV15 and CV16 use the exact same engine block.

 

[Whalensdad]

1.The Speed Advance Module has 5 wires. Red was key switched battery voltage. Black was ground. White was the kill lead. The other two wires, probably yellow and brown, went to the ignition coil. One spade terminal was slightly smaller than the other so you couldn't hook it up wrong.
2. The ignition system and charging system are not connected in anyway to each other. They operate completely independent of each other. The 12 584 12-S has nothing to do with the charging system.
If you engage the blades via a manual lever and not an electric clutch then there is probably no voltage regulator. If all the system needs to do is charge the battery and especially if this is a Sears unit, it is probably using a 3 amp unregulated charging system. Typically there would be three wires coming off the stator under the flywheel. Black, White and green. The black wire if I am remembering correctly is the battery charging lead. The check the system that wire need to be disconnected so there is no load on it. Then running the engine at full speed you would check the DC voltage coming off that black wire. It should be a minimum of 20 volts dc. There is no maximum so it could be more than 20 and that is fine. All we care about is a minimum of 20 volts dc. The white wire is for headlights if the unit is so equipped and the green wire is the brake wire which if there, should stop the engine from rotating with 5 seconds of shutting off the mower.
3. Started and running is a good thing.
4. I don't know what brand of coils you got to replace the genuine Kohler 12 584 04-S but they are not correct as you know. The genuine Kohler 12 584 04-S will mount. Like I stated, it may not run correctly but it will mount trust me. If the brand you got says it replaces the Kohler 12 584 04-S they are wrong. Kohler didn't change the coil mounting bosses when they went to the CV16 with Smart Spark. Both the CV15 and CV16 use the exact same engine block.

Not sure if you read thru from the start of the thread, but the LT1000 started life with a B&S 17.5 HP Intec. Somewhere along the line it was swapped with the Kohler.
1. The Speed advance module was never hooked to the coil. I don't know why.
2. I know. That was why I was wondering why they hooked the speed advance module to the stator (charging system). The unit had headlights, but they weren't connected with the Kohler engine. That was something I wanted to do. With the speed advance module, there was no up deflection of the amp meter when running. When I took it out and put the rectifier in its place, the amp meter went up. There is a separate wire coming from the pigtail to the coil to stop it when shutting off (also a wire going to the fuel shut off solenoid).
3. Started and ran, except for the surging which I hope to correct when I get this all sorted out.
4. I must have a bastardized engine. The carburetor serial number matches a CV13 and 15 and not what is on a CV16. The fly wheel doesn't appear to be the correct one for a CV13/15 based on what you say. I don't know.
I think I'm going to get the Tecumsah coil (1A138-52-12) and see if I can get it running again. I don't know what else to do without spending a fortune.

 

[sgkent]

do not drill it. That said, best to post lots of photos of the engine here. Don't assume because the shroud says kohler that it is. We just saw one the other day where someone swapped shrouds on an engine before they sold it.

 

[VegetiveSteam]

Not sure if you read thru from the start of the thread, but the LT1000 started life with a B&S 17.5 HP Intec. Somewhere along the line it was swapped with the Kohler.
1. The Speed advance module was never hooked to the coil. I don't know why.
2. I know. That was why I was wondering why they hooked the speed advance module to the stator (charging system). The unit had headlights, but they weren't connected with the Kohler engine. That was something I wanted to do. With the speed advance module, there was no up deflection of the amp meter when running. When I took it out and put the rectifier in its place, the amp meter went up. There is a separate wire coming from the pigtail to the coil to stop it when shutting off (also a wire going to the fuel shut off solenoid).
3. Started and ran, except for the surging which I hope to correct when I get this all sorted out.
4. I must have a bastardized engine. The carburetor serial number matches a CV13 and 15 and not what is on a CV16. The fly wheel doesn't appear to be the correct one for a CV13/15 based on what you say. I don't know.
I think I'm going to get the Tecumsah coil (1A138-52-12) and see if I can get it running again. I don't know what else to do without spending a fortune.

There should never be any direct battery voltage going to any magneto type ignition coil so I don't quite follow what you have going on there. I actually taught Kohler technicians for 27 years and you definitely have something cobbled together there. And from you pictures you do for sure have a Kohler CV engine. What was the regulator part number and what wires did you connect to it? The fuel solenoid and Speed Advance Module shouldn't have any connection to the stator. Those two components should be powered through the key switch.

 

[sgkent]

does the oil cap cover give a clue what engine this is? I looked at a lot of Kohler photos and that dipstick only appeared on a few, the CV730 for example. The style magnet on the flywheel only appears in some models too.

 

[VegetiveSteam]

does the oil cap cover give a clue what engine this is? I looked at a lot of Kohler photos and that dipstick only appeared on a few, the CV730 for example. The style magnet on the flywheel only appears in some models too.

It's definitely a Kohler.