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#1

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

This is an older gray craftsman with the 3 speed, floorboard shifter, with the high/low on the side. Anyone got a model number on a mower like this?

No sticker left.
20201113_101315.jpg


#2

M

mechanic mark

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#3

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

I think I've got the right model number. Now now to the problem at hand.

New Coils. One wasn't firing. The other was taped up...

The Kohler CV22S
Spec: 75534

It'll turn over but won't fire unless kill wires are disconnected.

This wiring diagram doesn't make sense to me at all.

White wire on solenoid is getting 12v, because it turns over. But something is keeping the coils from firing when kill switch is connected.

Seat safety switch tested good. Also the clutch switch has to work because it won't turn over when the clutch isn't pressed.


#4

I

ILENGINE

Are you sure you have the correct model number. That diagram hints to a twin cylinder single ignition module engine like a MV20 not you twin cylinder two ignition module engine


#5

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

No sir, I'm not sure. The sticker is gone. Just trying to match it with something close. It does have one kill wire going to two coils. So I was hoping there would be no difference in the rest of it. One thing I can see wrong, is the small wires going to the solenoid, both are black. (one double black. The other is a single black) The single black wire is rigger nigg'd into a white wire coming from the keyswitch. UGH..

The kill wires aren't grounded out on the intake (from being squeezed too tight or rubbing.


#6

StarTech

StarTech

What you have apparently is a failed ignition coil internal steering diode. Usually you end up replacing both coils to resolve the problem; unless, you can figure which one has the bad diode. Should be able to use the diode of your meter for this. I can check this out sometime today after my feed run in the morning.

I haven't tried this yet but you might be able to install a harness (styled after the Briggs harness) where the diodes are external to coils. As I said I haven't tried it yet as I only had case where the internal diode of one of the coils had failed. It was a rush job so I just replaced both coils two years ago.


#7

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

PTmowerMech said:
No sir, I'm not sure. The sticker is gone. Just trying to match it with something close. It does have one kill wire going to two coils. So I was hoping there would be no difference in the rest of it. One thing I can see wrong, is the small wires going to the solenoid, both are black. (one double black. The other is a single black) The single black wire is rigger nigg'd into a white wire coming from the keyswitch. UGH..

The kill wires aren't grounded out on the intake (from being squeezed too tight or rubbing.
Click to expand...
Have you connected an ohmmeter between the coil kill wire and ground and what readings do you get with the key switch in the off, on and actuating and deactivating the seat switch?


#8

StarTech

StarTech

Verified. You can test the coil's steering diode with the kill wire disconnected using the standard diode test feature on your test meter. Place one on the coils metal core and other on the kill tab. Of course you need to reverse the leads as to test diode both ways. This was tested on the 24 584 45-S which is now superseded to 24 584 201-S. The coil with shorted diode will be the culprit if no shorts found in the kill circuit otherwise. Kohler does recommend replacing both coils if one is found shorted.

Now off to four feed stores. Let see 2 bundles steel fence posts, Crushed oyster shells, Whole corn, and chick starter. Oh this should only take three hours.


#9

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

I married the dairy farmers daughter. I have learned far more about and helped out with dairy cattle than i really wanted too.


#10

StarTech

StarTech

Ever fell asleep in the feed bin?


#11

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

Hammermechanicman said:
Have you connected an ohmmeter between the coil kill wire and ground and what readings do you get with the key switch in the off, on and actuating and deactivating the seat switch?
Click to expand...

I've only checked the ground continuity of the kill wire with the switch on and off. Its grounded either way.


#12

StarTech

StarTech

PTmowerMech said:
I've only checked the ground continuity of the kill wire with the switch on and off. Its grounded either way.
Click to expand...
Is this with the coils disconnected? If so then there is a short in the harness or you have a defective ignition switch. Disconnect both coils and the ignition switch and retest. This would verify if it is the switch or wiring harness. Just remember if the one or both coils are connected when the switch is disconnected you could still get a grounded condition if one of the coils is bad.


#13

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

StarTech said:
Ever fell asleep in the feed bin?
Click to expand...
No but i was welding on a silo unloader in the middle of summer in a silo. About 100 degrees and sweating like a pig. Soaked my welding gloves and clothes and i went to change rods and the welder set on 150A AC lit my a$$ up for about 10 seconds and literally caused me to pi$$ my pants. Thought i was not going to make it. I had a hard time catching my breath and bro in law said i turned white.


#14

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Hammermechanicman said:
No but i was welding on a silo unloader in the middle of summer in a silo. About 100 degrees and sweating like a pig. Soaked my welding gloves and clothes and i went to change rods and the welder set on 150A AC lit my a$$ up for about 10 seconds and literally caused me to pi$$ my pants. Thought i was not going to make it. I had a hard time catching my breath and bro in law said i turned white.
Click to expand...
yikes


#15

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

The silo was full and had to climb the 65 ft ladder on the outside so after i got jacked up by the welder bro in law who was in the silo with me wanted me to go to the hospital but by the time i was physically able to climb down i was somewhat OK.


#16

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

Battery is coming off so I can access the wires in there. Too many wrong turns and splices in this harness.

The kill wires, from the harness are fine


#17

I

ILENGINE

Hammermechanicman said:
No but i was welding on a silo unloader in the middle of summer in a silo. About 100 degrees and sweating like a pig. Soaked my welding gloves and clothes and i went to change rods and the welder set on 150A AC lit my a$$ up for about 10 seconds and literally caused me to pi$$ my pants. Thought i was not going to make it. I had a hard time catching my breath and bro in law said i turned white.
Click to expand...
Was welding on my trailer a few years ago and was changing the rod at got hit with 100 amp DC. The ground clamp was connected to the trailer, so the path of least resistance was through me out of my shoes across the wet ground into the trailer jack 20 feet away. Makes you have second thought rather quickly.


#18

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Does tend to rather quickly refocus all of your attention. At least you didn't wet yourself.


#19

StarTech

StarTech

PTmowerMech said:
Battery is coming off so I can access the wires in there. Too many wrong turns and splices in this harness.
Boy I hate when wiring harnesses get hack up. It makes the job 10x harder to get done.

The kill wires, from the harness are fine
Click to expand...


#20

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech


There was a wire spliced into the white starter (key switch S) going straight to the Solenoid. Some other white wire that just dead ended into the main engine connection. I'm guessing when they do that, it's for an option on the mower that wasn't included. But wired for it in case it was included.

All the wires going to that one connected where cut and sliced back to each other.

I guess some people will cut a wire, just to check it. lol


#21

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

PTO switch. When the key is in the start position, I have 12v going into it, but nothing coming out. Could this just be a faulty switch or something not grounded?

Starter solenoid tested good.


#22

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Folks who's electrical skills that are somewhat lacking and tend to butcher wires for no apparent reason i refer to as a "Wilbur"


#23

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Hammermechanicman said:
Folks who's electrical skills that are somewhat lacking and tend to butcher wires for no apparent reason i refer to as a "Wilbur"
Click to expand...
Wilbur?


#24

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

Not sure what I did, other than finding the right white wire going to the Solenoid and cleaning the PTO switch, but it cranked and ran, with the kill wires connected. So, I'm gonna put the wires back in the conduit, put the battery back on and reconnect everything.

Wish me luck. LOL


#25

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

The wire he had going to the solenoid was a white one. But originally, it looked like it just dead ended into the main engine harness. But he'd spliced into that one, and connected it to the solenoid.

Either way, it's a pure headache. I had to fix about 5 other wires that he'd cut and reconnected. His connections were crap.


#26

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

"Wilbur" hard at work. Some folks don't have a clue how long it can take to un-F-up wiring on a mower you can't find a schematic for and they think black electrical tape is waterproof. I like the guy who is given an old mower with totally wilbur'd wiring and asks how much to fix it and gets miffed when you say you don't know and thinks you are ripping him off when you tell him to start at $200. Then he confesses that 4 other shops said they wouldn't touch it. I told him a free mower is usually like a free puppy and there is a reason they gave it away.


#27

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

PTmowerMech said:
Either way, it's a pure headache. I had to fix about 5 other wires that he'd cut and reconnected. His connections were crap.
Click to expand...

Yeah, seems like 99.9% of people thinks twisting wires together and some tape is a permenant fix.


#28

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Hammermechanicman said:
Yeah, seems like 99.9% of people thinks twisting wires together and some tape is a permenant fix.
Click to expand...
what's your preferred splice method?


#29

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

Scrubcadet10 said:
what's your preferred splice method?
Click to expand...

I don't know about Hammer's. But I like to take the metal connections out of the inside of the plastic covers they come in, crimp them to the wires. Then use the shrink tubes. I use enough to have at least 1" to 1.5" on both sides of the connection. It's sort of pain in the rear getting the connections out of that hard plastic. But I can see see exactly where and how it's crimped. Plus I can tell better how much wire I have inside the crimp.

What's yours?


#30

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

PTmowerMech said:
I don't know about Hammer's. But I like to take the metal connections out of the inside of the plastic covers they come in, crimp them to the wires. Then use the shrink tubes. I use enough to have at least 1" to 1.5" on both sides of the connection. It's sort of pain in the rear getting the connections out of that hard plastic. But I can see see exactly where and how it's crimped. Plus I can tell better how much wire I have inside the crimp.

What's yours?
Click to expand...
I usually twist the wires together,solder them and then heatshrink tube.
Sometimes if i can't solder them, i will coat the wire in liquid electrical tape, then heatshrink tube.


#31

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Scrubcadet10 said:
what's your preferred splice method?
Click to expand...
My preferred method to splice a wire on a mower is to use crimp butt connector and use the proper ratcheting crimper and then use adhesive lined 3:1 shrink tubing. The plier style crimpers are pretty much useless. Crimped and IDC connections need to be gas tight connections and the plier type terminal crimpers just apply enough pressure over a wide enough surface to deform the the metal of the terminalaround the wire to make a good gastight connection. Sometimes i will use a western union splice and solder and use the adhesive lined heat shrink. For larger lugs i have a hydraulic terminal crimper. For indoor low voltage indoor wiring not exposed to moisture i prefer top hat crimp connectors crimped with a ratcheting crimper.


#32

B

bertsmobile1

Yep,
Solder then heat shrink with glue followed by std heat shrink


#33

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

has anyone ever tried those heat shrink tubes with the solder in them?


#34

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Scrubcadet10 said:
has anyone ever tried those heat shrink tubes with the solder in them?
Click to expand...
Yes. Not all that impressed. Per the instructions you just push the wires together to interleave them. Not a good physical connection and not much solder that doesn't flow well into the wires. Will they work in a pinch? Probably but i would rather use my old school stuff. I would be curious to what the composition is of the low temp solder used in them.


#35

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

I can never get the solder to stick to the wire.


#36

StarTech

StarTech

PTmowerMech said:
I can never get the solder to stick to the wire.
Click to expand...
You must the appropriate flux and heat. I never had a problem getting most copper wires to accept rosin flux but it is time acid flux must be use. Btw solder usually throw to heat source.


#37

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

PTmowerMech said:
I can never get the solder to stick to the wire.
Click to expand...
What kind of iron and solder are you using?


#38

StarTech

StarTech

Hammermechanicman said:
My preferred method to splice a wire on a mower is to use crimp butt connector and use the proper ratcheting crimper and then use adhesive lined 3:1 shrink tubing. The plier style crimpers are pretty much useless. Crimped and IDC connections need to be gas tight connections and the plier type terminal crimpers just apply enough pressure over a wide enough surface to deform the the metal of the terminalaround the wire to make a good gastight connection. Sometimes i will use a western union splice and solder and use the adhesive lined heat shrink. For larger lugs i have a hydraulic terminal crimper. For indoor low voltage indoor wiring not exposed to moisture i prefer top hat crimp connectors crimped with a ratcheting crimper.
Click to expand...
Yes homeowner pliers type are virtually useless for making rock crimps. I seem so many crimp connection it isn't funny any more.

As many said solder and heat shrink is one my go to method for water tight connections; although, the new shrink style crimp connectors are nice too. Mainly use the solder and heat shrink due to clearance issues in tight places.


#39

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Most folks don't realize that crimp connectors using copper wire need to be what is called gas tight. If not then the moisture always present in the atmosphere will react with the copper and dissimilar metal of the crimp connector and will sooner or later fail. A good example are the clamp on the wire battery terminals. I repair lots of trailer wiring. Most new trailers have crap splices and ground connections. Guy brought me a truck where the dealer installed hitch and wiring. Less than 2 years and the scotchlock style connectors and black tape failed. Imagine that. Then you have the wire nut and black tape crowd.


#40

StarTech

StarTech

Now you forget those that just twist the wires together and use scotch tape.. Still not as bad the user that simply duct tape the walk behind mower blade on.


#41

M

mechanic mark

Hammermechanicman said:
Most folks don't realize that crimp connectors using copper wire need to be what is called gas tight. If not then the moisture always present in the atmosphere will react with the copper and dissimilar metal of the crimp connector and will sooner or later fail. A good example are the clamp on the wire battery terminals. I repair lots of trailer wiring. Most new trailers have crap splices and ground connections. Guy brought me a truck where the dealer installed hitch and wiring. Less than 2 years and the scotchlock style connectors and black tape failed. Imagine that. Then you have the wire nut and black tape crowd.
Click to expand...
Using silicone dielectric is a must on all electrical connections including batteries, helps to keep moisture out.


#42

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

For things like headlight bulbs and kohler voltage regulators i use the grease. For battery terminals i use a spray on battery terminal protector.


#43

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

Hammermechanicman said:
What kind of iron and solder are you using?
Click to expand...

Cheap part store solder. i use the little hand butane torch. I've tried the iron. but I end up with the same effect. Nothing sticking.


#44

M

mechanic mark

Hammermechanicman said:
For things like headlight bulbs and kohler voltage regulators i use the grease. For battery terminals i use a spray on battery terminal protector.
Click to expand...
Once the spray dries use dielectric grease if you so choose.


#45

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

Funny thing, I spent a few years repairing those old brass & copper radiators. I've run many header plates. And was pretty good at it, thanks to the man who taught me. That was using his method with a torch, liquid flux and metal solder.

Radiators are different than wires.


#46

StarTech

StarTech

PTmowerMech said:
Funny thing, I spent a few years repairing those old brass & copper radiators. I've run many header plates. And was pretty good at it, thanks to the man who taught me. That was using his method with a torch, liquid flux and metal solder.

Radiators are different than wires.
Click to expand...
Yes they are. The ones that looks like copper is actually red brass and requires acid flux for wetting the surface. "Red brass" is 85% copper, 5% tin, 5% lead, and 5% zinc.

What I use here is Kester 44 solder with a 60W pen or if I need more heat I used the 100w/250w soldering gun. Or at least that I normally use for copper wiring here.


#47

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

1608827818094.jpg
I have had this gun for probably 40 years. I have half dozen other pen irons. This is the one i use in the shop.⅞


#48

H

HughDaHand

PTmowerMech said:
The wire he had going to the solenoid was a white one. But originally, it looked like it just dead ended into the main engine harness. But he'd spliced into that one, and connected it to the solenoid.

Either way, it's a pure headache. I had to fix about 5 other wires that he'd cut and reconnected. His connections were crap.
Click to expand...

He probably swapped the engine. The original engine most likely has a starter mounted solenoid and was replaces with a engine that used a external solenoid. I would expect this mower to have a CV-(displacement) model command not a CV-(Horsepower) model.


#49

B

bertsmobile1

PTmowerMech said:
I can never get the solder to stick to the wire.
Click to expand...
You are not getting the wire clean enough or you are contaminating with oil from your fingers .
Try manually cleaning the wires, applying a LITTLE dab of paste flux before heating the wire,

On band new bare lean wire, try wearing rubber gloves to prevent contamination of the wire.,

Soldering is like welding.
Very few take the time to learn how to do it properly and do it so infrequently that they never get proper understanding nor technique


#50

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

bertsmobile1 said:
Very few take the time to learn how to do it properly and do it so infrequently that they never get proper understanding nor technique
Click to expand...

Bingo!


#51

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

bertsmobile1 said:
You are not getting the wire clean enough or you are contaminating with oil from your fingers .
Try manually cleaning the wires, applying a LITTLE dab of paste flux before heating the wire,

On band new bare lean wire, try wearing rubber gloves to prevent contamination of the wire.,

Soldering is like welding.
Very few take the time to learn how to do it properly and do it so infrequently that they never get proper understanding nor technique
Click to expand...

You're 100% correct. I usually twist the wires with my fingers.

I just checked to see what I actually tried. It's called Electro-Tek. 60/40 Rosin Core solder. I don't have any flux at the moment. But will be getting some. I think that's another reason the solder wouldn't stick. I guess I was thinking the "rosin" was the flux.
Learning to do things a better way is something I enjoy.


#52

StarTech

StarTech

PTmowerMech said:
You're 100% correct. I usually twist the wires with my fingers.

I just checked to see what I actually tried. It's called Electro-Tek. 60/40 Rosin Core solder. I don't have any flux at the moment. But will be getting some. I think that's another reason the solder wouldn't stick. I guess I was thinking the "rosin" was the flux.
Learning to do things a better way is something I enjoy.
Click to expand...
Yes rosin is the flux used with copper wiring normally especially in electronic circuit board repair. Now there is two types a non activated and an activated version. The activated version wets (cleans) better.


#53

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Rosin core solder is same as flux core solder. If you are doing it right you don't need separate flux. Dump the butane torch and get a decent 30 to 60watt pen type iron with a flat tip. Learn how to tin the iron. You can't solder oxidized wires. They must be shiny. If you are fixing wire on a mower be sure to cut back to good wire. Soldering is a skill like welding or brazing.


#54

StarTech

StarTech

It just rosin needs to be the activated type as it wets better. And size of iron (heat source) depends how big of a heat sink the wire is. 18 ga take a lot less heat than 12 ga to get things to the melting point of the solder.


#55

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

Hammermechanicman said:
Rosin core solder is same as flux core solder. If you are doing it right you don't need separate flux. Dump the butane torch and get a decent 30 to 60watt pen type iron with a flat tip. Learn how to tin the iron. You can't solder oxidized wires. They must be shiny. If you are fixing wire on a mower be sure to cut back to good wire. Soldering is a skill like welding or brazing.
Click to expand...

I have a couple of those pen type soldering irons. It's what I use to repair plastic fuel tanks. But there's not tinting the point of this. It just falls off into a ball.
The body oil that Bert was talking about doesn't come into play with that iron. Because I never touch it. So why won't it tint?


#56

StarTech

StarTech

It call "tinning" or you statement "tin"; not tint. Several reasons but the most common is that flux hasn't done its job of wetting the metal. Without proper wetting (cleaning) the solder will never stick to the wire. Also some wire might require acid flux depending its composition. I have seen some silver color wires (tin plated) to be resistance to rosin flux.


#57

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

The iron tip needs to be "tinned" first. Depending on tip condition will determine what you need to do to get it tinned. If you have been using it on plastic you will need to get it hot, use some steel wool to clean the tip and apply some solder to the tip and and it should wet to the tip. After that hold the tip against the wires and the solder to the wires NOT the iron tip till it melts to the wire.


#58

B

bertsmobile1

PTmowerMech said:
Funny thing, I spent a few years repairing those old brass & copper radiators. I've run many header plates. And was pretty good at it, thanks to the man who taught me. That was using his method with a torch, liquid flux and metal solder.

Radiators are different than wires.
Click to expand...

Problem with a torch on wire is the flame oxadizes the surface preventing the solder from sticking.
You need a torch where you can adjust the air fuel ratio to get a slightly reducing flame to torch solder.


#59

B

bertsmobile1

StarTech said:
Yes they are. The ones that looks like copper is actually red brass and requires acid flux for wetting the surface. "Red brass" is 85% copper, 5% tin, 5% lead, and 5% zinc.

What I use here is Kester 44 solder with a 60W pen or if I need more heat I used the 100w/250w soldering gun. Or at least that I normally use for copper wiring here.
Click to expand...

I doubt that a pressing would be made from 85-5-5-5 which we call leaded gunmetal as it is a bearing and casting alloy and rarely made into plate as it tears very easily.
The only application for 85-5-5-5 sheet that I know of is for thin rolled bushes .
Copper for radiator cores is generally 99 to 99.9 % Cu with small amounts of silver, arsenic , lead , tin , Bismuth, cadmium & Iron in varying quantities from 0.0% up to 0.5% .
Top & bottom tanks are usually 70:30 and again some will have up to .5% iron.
The iron helps the solder to wet the surface and is generally used with iron bearing solder , ( up to 1% ) with substantially shortens the solidification time and also slows down errosion of the tool tips & dipping pots.
Probably made 10,000 sticks of radiator solder ( different to tin mans solder & different again to plumbers solder & different again to electricians solder ).
We had around 200 different "secret" solder recipies for various customers .
Metallurgically they were all just slight variations on the 4 major types and the tiny variations is alloying elements & purity made 5/8 of SFA difference, but the customer paid a big premium to get their special secret sticks made and most of these were made from recycled lab dip samples that were better than 5 years old.


#60

R

Rivets

<deleted>


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