Home

Export thread

Can't Pull Mower Backwards - HRR216VLA to bearing conversion

Oct 1, 2019#1

B

Briantii

Edit:

2 Year update 10/18/2021 - the needle bearings worked great for 2 years. I disassembled for re-greasing and found that they HAVE caused some minor damage and mushrooming to the drive shaft especially on the left side where the transmission sits and pulls against the shaft to tension the belt. Basically the thin needle bearings seem harder than the shaft and "pushed" the metal out around them to the outside edges. I simply removed this with a dremel, but clearly it's far from ideal. At this point I think the best recommendation is the stock bushings with an extra dust seal added to the wheel side. Another likely good option is to swap the plastic bushings for Oilite bushings and still add that extra dust seal.

Hey guys,

I've been working for a while on my mower (hrr216k8vya) trying to permanently fix the "can't pull backwards" issue. The problem is always inside the adjuster bushings. They get dust and gunk in them and start to seize up. I've tried adding a zerk fitting and that was moderately successful until it got so full of gunk / plugged up that it would simply push the dust seal out.

Looking at the typical consumer Honda design it seems to me there are potentially two issues:

1) Plastic bushings - are these REALLY the best plan or just the cheapest?

2) The dust seal is ONLY on the deck side of the mower. Any dust blowing around inside the wheel cover / drive gear area can go straight into the bushing with no seal. The HRX217 series it seems they have a seal on BOTH sides of the bushing.

I'm currently testing my latest idea - replace the bushings with needle bearings AND add a second dust seal. So far after one mow, it seems to be working great and doesn't need to be re-greased / refreshed (unlike the Zerk fitting which required constant greasing to keep the bushing lubed)

I figured I'd share what I've got in case it helps anyone - keep in mind I've NOT performed extensive testing with it yet, but I'd argue that it rolls backwards better than any of the new Honda's in the store... so I'm hoping I'm on to something. The real test is if I can get through a season without messing with it.

To convert to bearings

Required parts / tools:

Bench Vice
Drill
11/16th drill bit (hard to find, check Amazon)
(4) 1/2 x 11/16 x 1/2 bearings (hard to find, check Amazon)
(4) Honda 12.7mm dust seals
Your existing adjusters for modification
Quick Set Epoxy - I used Harbor Freight cheap stuff

The idea is pretty simple, there are no bearings that fit inside the adjuster so we have to modify the adjuster housing to accept them.

1) AFTER pushing out the existing plastic bushings, Drill out the existing adjuster from the OUTSIDE (wheel side) in, leaving about 3mm un-drilled on the deck side. This un-drilled side will ensure we get the "best" dust seal fit on the deck side of the mower.

2) Put two bearings down inside the adjuster and CAREFULLY use epoxy to secure them. Do not get epoxy in the bearings

3) Epoxy the dust seals in place on both the inside and outside of the adjuster. I recommend using the transmission shaft to ensure alignment of the outside dust seal since that's the side we've drilled from and it will NOT self align.

4) Allow epoxy to set up. It should look about like this when you're done.

5) Grease the bearings and reassemble. I used a dry lube around the dust seals and tried to avoid getting grease around the dust seals. Basically grease will grab any dirt / dust so I tried to avoid that.

Good luck and I'll update the thread with the good (or bad) results as I get more use out of this setup. Frankly if this doesn't work (provide at least a solid season of trouble free mowing) I'm ditching this mower and getting something else.

Oct 1, 2019#2

upupandaway

Briantii said:
Hey guys,

I've been working for a while on my mower (hrr216k8vya) trying to permanently fix the "can't pull backwards" issue....

Doesn't yours have the "clicker" when you pull the mower back?? Everytime i come across a honda(including hrr216's) that is hard to pull backwards, the pinion gear that drives the wheels, on the shaft has ratchet notches that gets all locked up with dirt.
They "click" when you pull back but engage when using the self propel. They lock up and just need clean and lube.
If this is standard, you are just reducing friction for the self propel assembly.

Oct 1, 2019#3

B

Briantii

upupandaway said:
Doesn't yours have the "clicker" when you pull the mower back?? Everytime i come across a honda(including hrr216's) that is hard to pull backwards, the pinion gear that drives the wheels, on the shaft has ratchet notches that gets all locked up with dirt.
They "click" when you pull back but engage when using the self propel. They lock up and just need clean and lube.
If this is standard, you are just reducing friction for the self propel assembly.

Nah, you've got the functionality backwards. The "clicking" is when you push forward. When you pull backwards the pinion is locked to the drive shaft / axle and even if you're only trying to turn one wheel backwards the shaft is solid and has to spin on BOTH adjuster bushings. From everything I've seen the primary cause for drag pulling backwards is the adjuster bushings with a very small amount being added by the transmission / belt. If you're seeing an improvement when you clean up the pinions it's probably because you're getting cleaner / WD40 / whatever straight into the open bushing which is right there. Even a little WD40 in that spot will provide a significant temporary improvement, but it's because the lube got in the bushing, not the pinion gear. Gunked up pinion gears would only apply if it was hard to push forward. (or more likely a slipping forward self propelled)

Oct 2, 2019#4

upupandaway

Briantii said:
Nah, you've got the functionality backwards.

you are right. my bad.

Oct 8, 2019#5

B

Briantii

Just a quick update. 3 mows and still working great. Bushing system wanted to start dragging a little after the first mow and truly annoying by the end of the 2nd. So far so good on this setup without touching it. I can actually turn the mower with one wheel still and the other going backwards- easily. Doesn’t seem like much but a huge improvement compared to stock. Will update further as I get more hours on the setup.

Apr 7, 2020#6

tayto

wondering how this is working? i bought a used hrr216k9vka last season, used it with out the self propelling feature. tore it apart last week and found one of the wheels seized. tried to order updated parta from honda but back ordered until end of april. while I like the needle bearings not sure if the shaft will wear prematurely. did ypu ever think to use some bronze oilite bushings?

Apr 7, 2020#7

D

dfbrown

On the hrr216 there are some good YouTube videos out there. I take it all apart each wheel and height adjusters. Leave trans installed and belt. You can move thr trans left end right ok. Sand and clean the transmission axle when the height adjuster would be located on the axle ok. Clean everything like real OCD and grease the height adjusters and the key way and spring and put back together. Should be way way smoother and easier to pull backwards with no sense of lock up. FWIW I have had great luck with amsoil red synthetic grease nlgi#2. As per service this is to be done every 150 hours on hrr216 and hrx217. If you wash your mower a lot it Bedoya problem. Surface rust on the axle builds up and make it stiff too on thr axle and height adjustment bushings. Yeah sucks there plastic but I’m sure with the 400$ price point is why it is what it is. The all new hrn216 has ratchets and pulls forward and back so easy like a non self propelled mower would. Huge improvement. hope this helps. Good luck

Apr 8, 2020#8

tayto

i believe the plastic bushing has been removed? appears to be steel on steel. after I cleaned up shaft i test fitted the adjusters on both sides and there is a fair bit of slop between them and the shaft. i will check tomorrow when I reassemble and test.

Apr 8, 2020#9

B

Briantii

No I just used the needle bearings. The real issue is that gunk gets in there and jams everything up. It comes in I believe on the wheel side since there is no dust seal there, just the plastic wheel cover on the back side. You could try just cleaning and adding an inner dust seal.

My issue with cleaning it out was that I got no where near 150 hours before it started to drag again. For me it was more like 2 hours. So far the needle bearings are workzing great, much better than even perfectly lubed plastic bushings. I won’t have long term results for a few months as mowing season is just starting, but so far it’s perfect. Remember I added a dust seal and needle bearings both. If you try bronze bushings please update with the results. My only goal is to figure out an easy way to make these mowers perform like they should have from the factory. So far my current solution is working much better than all prior attempts. If it fails I may just buy a commercial mower or new HRN.

Apr 8, 2020#10

B

Briantii

tayto said:
i believe the plastic bushing has been removed? appears to be steel on steel. after I cleaned up shaft i test fitted the adjusters on both sides and there is a fair bit of slop between them and the shaft. i will check tomorrow when I reassemble and test.

HRR should have a plastic bushing in each adjuster. Sometimes it can appear shinny but it’s plastic in there.

Apr 8, 2020#11

tayto

yes you are correct, once i cleaned all the grime away it is clear there is plastic bushings in place. i reassembled for now and the self propelling is functional, cut about 20 minutes off my mow time. wish I would have fixed last season.... i have some bushings and seals picked out from. mcmaster-carr, i will post back when things move forward.

Apr 12, 2020#12

B

Briantii

tayto said:
yes you are correct, once i cleaned all the grime away it is clear there is plastic bushings in place. i reassembled for now and the self propelling is functional, cut about 20 minutes off my mow time. wish I would have fixed last season.... i have some bushings and seals picked out from. mcmaster-carr, i will post back when things move forward.

Awesome! I look forward to hearing how it works for you. It’d be great if there was a way to upgrade it without having to drill to accept the needle bearings.

Amazing how much better they mow when this i working properly. I suspect only 5-10% of them actually work right. Even in the store most have way more drag than they should.

Apr 18, 2020#13

D

de3

I just ordered all driveline oem parts for the rear of my hrx...going on 6 years old and roughly 500 plus hours,I would say for the last 2 or 3 years I've just made it work and its apart every two weeks.......even my c-clips are paper thin.I think with new rear wheels i'll have around 150 dollars in it........love the mower

Apr 18, 2020#14

B

Briantii

de3 said:
I just ordered all driveline oem parts for the rear of my hrx...going on 6 years old and roughly 500 plus hours,I would say for the last 2 or 3 years I've just made it work and its apart every two weeks.......even my c-clips are paper thin.I think with new rear wheels i'll have around 150 dollars in it........love the mower

The hrx uses a different part that’s better designed. Not really relevant to this thread, but glad you love your mower. I love mine with the bearing conversion! Still doing great!

Apr 30, 2020#15

B

Briantii

Quick update - bearings still working perfectly.

Apr 30, 2020#16

D

de3

Briantii said:
Quick update - bearings still working perfectly.

do you have a link on the bearings you used

Apr 30, 2020#17

B

Briantii

de3 said:
do you have a link on the bearings you used

Sure - I used 4 of these bearing. 2 in each side:

SCE88, 1/2 x 11/16 x 1/2 inch, Needle Bearing SCE88: Needle Roller Bearings: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

www.amazon.com

May 12, 2020#18

D

de3

Thanks my friend....

May 15, 2020#19

D

Dickman

Briantii said:
Hey guys,

I've been working for a while on my mower (hrr216k8vya) trying to permanently fix the "can't pull backwards" issue. The problem is always inside the adjuster bushings. They get dust and gunk in them and start to seize up. I've tried adding a zerk fitting and that was moderately successful until it got so full of gunk / plugged up that it would simply push the dust seal out.

Looking at the typical consumer Honda design it seems to me there are potentially two issues:

1) Plastic bushings - are these REALLY the best plan or just the cheapest?

2) The dust seal is ONLY on the deck side of the mower. Any dust blowing around inside the wheel cover / drive gear area can go straight into the bushing with no seal. The HRX217 series it seems they have a seal on BOTH sides of the bushing.

I'm currently testing my latest idea - replace the bushings with needle bearings AND add a second dust seal. So far after one mow, it seems to be working great and doesn't need to be re-greased / refreshed (unlike the Zerk fitting which required constant greasing to keep the bushing lubed)

I figured I'd share what I've got in case it helps anyone - keep in mind I've NOT performed extensive testing with it yet, but I'd argue that it rolls backwards better than any of the new Honda's in the store... so I'm hoping I'm on to something. The real test is if I can get through a season without messing with it.

To convert to bearings

Required parts / tools:

Bench Vice
Drill
11/16th drill bit (hard to find, check Amazon)
(4) 1/2 x 11/16 x 1/2 bearings (hard to find, check Amazon)
(4) Honda 12.7mm dust seals
Your existing adjusters for modification
Quick Set Epoxy - I used Harbor Freight cheap stuff

The idea is pretty simple, there are no bearings that fit inside the adjuster so we have to modify the adjuster housing to accept them.

1) AFTER pushing out the existing plastic bushings, Drill out the existing adjuster from the OUTSIDE (wheel side) in, leaving about 3mm un-drilled on the deck side. This un-drilled side will ensure we get the "best" dust seal fit on the deck side of the mower.

View attachment 45819

2) Put two bearings down inside the adjuster and CAREFULLY use epoxy to secure them. Do not get epoxy in the bearings

View attachment 45820

3) Epoxy the dust seals in place on both the inside and outside of the adjuster. I recommend using the transmission shaft to ensure alignment of the outside dust seal since that's the side we've drilled from and it will NOT self align.

View attachment 45821

4) Allow epoxy to set up. It should look about like this when you're done.

View attachment 45822

5) Grease the bearings and reassemble. I used a dry lube around the dust seals and tried to avoid getting grease around the dust seals. Basically grease will grab any dirt / dust so I tried to avoid that.

Good luck and I'll update the thread with the good (or bad) results as I get more use out of this setup. Frankly if this doesn't work (provide at least a solid season of trouble free mowing) I'm ditching this mower and getting something else.

Just curious: when drilling out the adjuster, did you use a drill press, or freehand it with a hand drill with the adjuster in a vice?
Thanks.

May 15, 2020#20

B

Briantii

Dickman said:
Just curious: when drilling out the adjuster, did you use a drill press, or freehand it with a hand drill with the adjuster in a vice?
Thanks.

If I had a drill press I would have used one. Instead I was just very careful and used a regular drill and bench vice. A drill press would be much better.

Jun 3, 2020#21

D

Dickman

So I bought the needle bearings, seals, and drill bit. The drill bit ($15) got really dull near the end of the second hole, but it made it. Maybe more $$ on the drill bit would be a better call. I used the bench vice and a steady hand, and it worked fine. Epoxied everything up last night, and reassembled it this morning.

The mower pulled backwards very easy. I started the mower and did a 5 minute test lawn cut. It pulled back very easy. Surprisingly, it nearly leaped out of my hands when I engaged the drive! I am very happy so far. The true test will be to see if it lasts beyond one mowing season. This is my 5th year with this mower, and I have had to tear the rear drive down at the end of every mowing season, clean and re-lube it.

Thanks, Briantii. Great fix, and great instructions.

Jun 3, 2020#22

C

civic

I have tried many things like most of you have done. Clean the bushing lube with a good quality lithium or synthetic grease. All works good for a while. What I did is add a piece of felt to the wheel cover to prevent dirt from entry. See the red insert this is where I added the felt. I bought a flat self stick felt piece about an 1/8 thick at any home improvement store, cut to size. So far I have 10 hours on this and it is working great. A cheap easy fix.

Jun 4, 2020#23

B

Briantii

Dickman said:
So I bought the needle bearings, seals, and drill bit. The drill bit ($15) got really dull near the end of the second hole, but it made it. Maybe more $$ on the drill bit would be a better call. I used the bench vice and a steady hand, and it worked fine. Epoxied everything up last night, and reassembled it this morning.

The mower pulled backwards very easy. I started the mower and did a 5 minute test lawn cut. It pulled back very easy. Surprisingly, it nearly leaped out of my hands when I engaged the drive! I am very happy so far. The true test will be to see if it lasts beyond one mowing season. This is my 5th year with this mower, and I have had to tear the rear drive down at the end of every mowing season, clean and re-lube it.

Thanks, Briantii. Great fix, and great instructions.

Awesome! Glad it’s working for you just like it is for me. Haven’t touched mine since October and it still “leaps” compared to stock.

Jun 4, 2020#24

B

Briantii

civic said:
I have tried many things like most of you have done. Clean the bushing lube with a good quality lithium or synthetic grease. All works good for a while. What I did is add a piece of felt to the wheel cover to prevent dirt from entry. See the red insert this is where I added the felt. I bought a flat self stick felt piece about an 1/8 thick at any home improvement store, cut to size. So far I have 10 hours on this and it is working great. A cheap easy fix.

Great idea! I do wonder how much dust gets by between the wheel and dust cover too. Id be tempted to try it there too. I will say, I kinda feel like the bearings are an upgrade as the mower feels 10lbs lighter. Your idea is great though and worth trying first for sure.

Jun 5, 2020#25

C

civic

Briantii,
Do you have a fish scale to measure how many pounds of force it takes to pull your mower backwards on concrete? My initial start is 8 pounds and once it is moving it is 5-6 pounds. Be interested to know.

Jun 5, 2020#26

B

Briantii

civic said:
Briantii,
Do you have a fish scale to measure how many pounds of force it takes to pull your mower backwards on concrete? My initial start is 8 pounds and once it is moving it is 5-6 pounds. Be interested to know.

Unfortunately I don’t have one. It’s pretty light though. Only slightly more drag than when pushing forward. It’ll actually roll down hills backwards on grass. I’ve cleaned and replaced the bushings enough times, I do feel it’s a bit less drag than the bushings when perfect. Sorry, not a fisherman and can’t justify buying one to measure the lawn mower. The wife already looks at me like “Why haven’t you just bought a new mower yet?” any time I start walking at it with a wrench.

She knows the bushing issue has driven me insane. One other thing - I run ATF in the trans instead of the stock oil. I chipped a gear on my original trans and figured a real gear oil couldn’t hurt. Never had a trans issue with atf.

Jun 6, 2020#27

C

civic

I wonder if one can convert the rear axle assembly from a hrr to a hrn.

Jun 6, 2020#28

B

Briantii

civic said:
I wonder if one can convert the rear axle assembly from a hrr to a hrn.

Im not sure, but I suspect not easily. The hrn uses a single height adjustment per axle which seems to significantly change the mounting style of the wheels and drive axle.

https://peparts.honda.com/powerequipment#/browse/lm/hrn/hrn216/HRN216-VYA

It seems like the big difference is moving the axle support from a bushing in the adjuster assembly and into a “ratchet holder” that looks like it might attach into the wheel cover. It also kinda looks like a bearing in the parts diagram.

I’d really have to dig into one in person to see, but I think it’s safe to say there are some pretty big differences in how they attach. For now I’m good to go with the bearing conversion. If it keeps working like this I’ll have no reason to mess with it.

I would be curious to see if people can have good long term results with either your felt trick and / or with adding another dust seal to the wheel side of the adjuster and keeping the bushing. Both of those are for sure easier than drilling the adjuster for bearings.

Jun 8, 2020#29

B

Briantii

civic said:
Briantii,
Do you have a fish scale to measure how many pounds of force it takes to pull your mower backwards on concrete? My initial start is 8 pounds and once it is moving it is 5-6 pounds. Be interested to know.

I remembered tonight that I had a scale for weighing bags for aviation. Very similar to a fish scale but mine is digital and was a bit harder to read for something like this, but on flat concrete my breakaway is right around 7 - 8lbs as well. It was harder to tell the once moving number but seemed similar to yours. I haven’t touched mine since October and probably have 15-20 hours on it at this point.

Jun 8, 2020#30

C

civic

What part of the country do you live in. I live in Houston and not sure atf is a good choice. Also, I bought 2 bearings instead of 4. They are the same size except 7/8 in. long. JTT814 bearing. I also have a machine shop where I work and the are going to drill out the adjusters for me. I really like your idea. I also found my notes right after I lube the bushings and the initial pull is still 8 lbs and 6 lbs once rolling so I think the felt is working. I will be very interested if the needle bearing changes the resistance and will report back. When I was at the lawn mower shop I saw the new Honda's and they pull back as easy as the move forward. Would hate to buy one now since they will be other issues with this machine. I will let all the newbies test drive them first. Anyway, there is nothing wrong with my mower except the rear wheel issue and I have maintain this mower extremely well. It has also been through 2 floods.

Jun 8, 2020#31

B

Briantii

Ah, very nice! I just grabbed what I could find easily. I wish I had a machine shop, it’s for sure better than a drill and a vice.

I’m in the Atlanta area and you maybe right about ATF being the wrong choice. My first transmission on the stock oil had two chipped gears. I flushed it way back then and simply guessed at a fluid for it... figured it already had gear damage what’s the worst that could happen? That trans ran perfect for years until the shaft took so much wear around the bushings that I decided to replace it to try to get a better seal. When I put the new transmission in it, I started with dry lube on the bushings which was a massive failure. I believe it got so hot that the transmission itself locked up, but became unstuck once it cooled a bit. I took it apart expecting to find the new transmission with a chipped gear (but no damage thankfully). When I put it back together ATF was handy and I knew it hadnt hurt my original trans so I stuck with it.

I really like your felt idea too. My mower is coming up on 10 years old and have been fighting this bushing issue for way too long. Every year take it apart and clean it, runs great for a few mows, and slowly starts dragging again. If a simple felt seal or bearing conversion fixes it then I have no complaints. I’ll probably try adding the felt next time I clean the pinion gears. Right now my goal is to make it a full season without touching it - so far that’s looking promising.

Look forward to your feedback on how the felt holds up and the different bearings. It sounds like you’re on track for the best solution yet.

Jun 8, 2020#32

C

civic

My mower is 10-12 years old HRR2168VKA. The felt is very easy and you don't need to take much apart. Since you have the same resistance I wonder if I need to do the needle bearings. My machinist thought it was a get idea that will last vs. plastic bushing. I have had the same issue since this mower was 2 years old. Like you and most people here I get sick and tired of doing this every year. I want a fix for many years. I also like the idea you put seals on both ends of the adjuster. Honda must not care about this issue or they would have come up with a fix. Shame on them.

Jun 9, 2020#33

B

Briantii

I’d probably leave it alone and then switch to bearings if it ever acts up again. You’re right that Honda should be ashamed of this setup. It’s truly flawed and you know some engineer was begging management to spend $2 extra per mower to do it right. Everything else about these mowers is solid except this, and it happens to be such an annoying issue. There is no excuse for a mower that tears up grass anytime you try to pull it backwards.

Jun 10, 2020#34

C

civic

I am wonder if the needle bearings go dry of grease that they may eat into the shaft. Something to think about. I did buy a set of bearings and new adjusters with 2 extra seals. My bearings have a small rubber seal on each end. My machinist was too busy today but hopefully tomorrow.

Jun 11, 2020#35

B

Briantii

civic said:
I am wonder if the needle bearings go dry of grease that they may eat into the shaft. Something to think about. I did buy a set of bearings and new adjusters with 2 extra seals. My bearings have a small rubber seal on each end. My machinist was too busy today but hopefully tomorrow.

Yeah, that is a risk, but it for sure already happens with the bushings. That’s why I replaced my transmission previously. It wears down significantly where the bushings and grit come together. I’ve been looking at the deck side of mine and with a newer shaft and so far I’m not seeing any leaking which hopefully means the grease is staying in there and in good shape.

Jun 11, 2020#36

C

civic

I got my adjusters back from the machine shop. The bearings are a press fit no need to epoxy but I ll need to epoxy one of the seals. I am excited to do this but I may wait until fall for 2 reasons. One it is hot, second and foremost I want to see if the felt works. Either way I believe I have a fix for at least several years instead of yearly. I also believe the needle bearings may have less resistance. Here are my pics.

Jun 11, 2020#37

B

Briantii

civic said:
I got my adjusters back from the machine shop. The bearings are a press fit no need to epoxy but I ll need to epoxy one of the seals. I am excited to do this but I may wait until fall for 2 reasons. One it is hot, second and foremost I want to see if the felt works. Either way I believe I have a fix for at least several years instead of yearly. I also believe the needle bearings may have less resistance. Here are my pics.

Oh man that is WAY prettier than my handheld drill! I love the press fit. Mine wasn’t perfect enough to avoid epoxy. I swear you’ll have the best setup yet. Felt + extra dust seal + bearings. I’m jealous. I bet it’ll last a really long time like that and is what Honda should have given us to start with. Please keep us updated on how the felt alone does. I’m really curious if that’s all that’s really needed for most people.

Jun 11, 2020#38

C

civic

I was just looking up to see if you can just replace the shaft but it is part of the trans. Anyway the trans is only $50 shipped. I spent that on these adjusters and bearings. You know all the money I have spent on this lawn mower I could have bought a new one, but I am not a throw away type of guy. I like to repair things and see how it works. It is an education. I have never had a mower last me more than 3-4 years except this one and it cuts better, starts very easy than any mower I have ever had.

Jun 11, 2020#39

C

civic

Hey thanks. I am glad I found you. I was just browsing this forum the other day when I saw your idea. Yes I will keep you and everyone posted. I didn't need to buy new adjusters but I wanted to be ready for the install.

I am not sure you can see it, but these needle bearings have an o ring or seal at each end

Jun 11, 2020#40

B

Briantii

Yep, I’m with you. I’ve replaced the stupid adjusters more times than I care to admit. Youre right that the shaft is only sold with the trans. My problem is there aren’t many mowers I like better no matter what the price is - The new HRN looks decent but good chance I’d just go commercial if I replaced this one.

Jun 11, 2020#41

C

civic

I had a Toro before this Honda. I bought it because Consumer Reports rated it right below the Honda and said it was a great mulcher and it was several hundred dollars less. I hated that mower. It didn't mulch well I always had to mow twice it left clumps of grass. I did everything the manual said to super mulch. I have St. Augustine grass. However I took this mower to my beach house with Bermuda grass and it did good. Bermuda is a lot thinner grass.

Jun 12, 2020#42

B

Briantii

civic said:
I had a Toro before this Honda. I bought it because Consumer Reports rated it right below the Honda and said it was a great mulcher and it was several hundred dollars less. I hated that mower. It didn't mulch well I always had to mow twice it left clumps of grass. I did everything the manual said to super mulch. I have St. Augustine grass. However I took this mower to my beach house with Bermuda grass and it did good. Bermuda is a lot thinner grass.

Im not sure I could live with the personal pace deal. That looks like it’d be weird to me. I’m really glad you and others have found this thread helpful. I’m hoping it becomes the place where we truly solve this design flaw. I love your idea with felt and glad you shared it. I also love the extra o ring on your bearings. The more we work together and share ideas the better our chances are to making these mowers bulletproof.

Jun 12, 2020#43

D

Dickman

civic said:
I got my adjusters back from the machine shop. The bearings are a press fit no need to epoxy but I ll need to epoxy one of the seals. I am excited to do this but I may wait until fall for 2 reasons. One it is hot, second and foremost I want to see if the felt works. Either way I believe I have a fix for at least several years instead of yearly. I also believe the needle bearings may have less resistance. Here are my pics.

A thought on those seals: when I disassembled my adjusters and axles, I found that one of the inside seals had popped out of it's press-fit hole and it was just flopping around on the axle. I am not sure how that could have happened. So I opted to epoxy both the inside and outside seals, just to prevent that from happening again. Just my 2 cents worth.

Jun 12, 2020#44

B

Briantii

Dickman said:
A thought on those seals: when I disassembled my adjusters and axles, I found that one of the inside seals had popped out of it's press-fit hole and it was just flopping around on the axle. I am not sure how that could have happened. So I opted to epoxy both the inside and outside seals, just to prevent that from happening again. Just my 2 cents worth.

I did the same thing and had seen mine pop off before as well.

Jun 12, 2020#45

D

Dickman

Here is one other thing I did while reassembling and epoxying. I went to a good hardware store and bought a 3 ft length of aluminum rod, 1/2 inch in diameter. I cut 2 pieces from it, each about 6 inches long. I inserted each rod thru the adjuster/bearing assemblies. That provided good alignment for epoxying the outside seal. Briantii's suggestion of using the axle for alignment is good, I was just too klutzy to make that work while dealing with gooey epoxy, too.

Jun 12, 2020#46

B

Briantii

Dickman said:
Here is one other thing I did while reassembling and epoxying. I went to a good hardware store and bought a 3 ft length of aluminum rod, 1/2 inch in diameter. I cut 2 pieces from it, each about 6 inches long. I inserted each rod thru the adjuster/bearing assemblies. That provided good alignment for epoxying the outside seal. Briantii's suggestion of using the axle for alignment is good, I was just too klutzy to make that work while dealing with gooey epoxy, too.

Good suggestion - I cheated and used my old transmission. ;-)

Jun 12, 2020#47

C

civic

Dickman said:
A thought on those seals: when I disassembled my adjusters and axles, I found that one of the inside seals had popped out of it's press-fit hole and it was just flopping around on the axle. I am not sure how that could have happened. So I opted to epoxy both the inside and outside seals, just to prevent that from happening again. Just my 2 cents worth.

Thanks for the heads up. I was just planning on epoxying the floppy seal only but now will do both. I also plan on using the trans. shaft as an alignment. Not a bad idea using a piece of 1/2 in. rod. Like all these ideas. I wish more people will chime in. There are a lot of people on here not happy about this. Maybe we need to start a new thread saying something like Permanent Repair to Rear Wheels Locking Up on VKA's

Jun 12, 2020#48

B

Briantii

civic said:
Thanks for the heads up. I was just planning on epoxying the floppy seal only but now will do both. I also plan on using the trans. shaft as an alignment. Not a bad idea using a piece of 1/2 in. rod. Like all these ideas. I wish more people will chime in. There are a lot of people on here not happy about this. Maybe we need to start a new thread saying something like Permanent Repair to Rear Wheels Locking Up on VKA's

Maybe an admin can sticky this thread and we can rename it?

Jun 14, 2020#49

Westman

Briantil, great thread and thanks for documenting this process that Honda dropped the ball on when originally designing these mowers. Has anyone here ever thought about bluing the axle, much like a rifle or shot gun to cut down on the rust and corrosion? Simple process that might extend the life of the axle while reducing rust? Just a thought. I am in the process of re-bluing my Remington 1100 shotgun, that is what brought this to mind. A simple chemical process used everyday to protect the metal on firearms. This could be easily applied to the Honda HRR rear axle as long as it was metal (magnetic) and not an alloy or stainless steel.

Jun 14, 2020#50

C

civic

Westman, the axle is magnetic. Will this harden the metal or just a harden coating. I looked this up and saw a product called Super Blue, is this a good product?

Jun 14, 2020#51

Westman

civic said:
Westman, the axle is magnetic. Will this harden the metal or just a harden coating. I looked this up and saw a product called Super Blue, is this a good product?

The cold bluing process protects the metal from corrosion, rusting. The product I recommend is called "Brownell's Oxphoblue". It is a cold bluing process. Oxphoblue oxidizes the metal to create a corrosion and rust resistant finish. I have not used "Super Blue" but it works similar to "Oxphoblue". Check out this link to observe the process used on the barrel of a firearm:

. Amazon sells both Oxphoblue and Super Blue.

Jun 14, 2020#52

Westman

The end result is an axle that is much more corrosive and rust resistant than not. If it works for a firearm barrel, why not an axle? Not sure too many people have blued their lawn mower axles, but given the issues with the HRR216, why not?

Jun 15, 2020#53

B

bertsmobile1

I do hope you oil the barrels once you have blued them ?
You would have to do the same thing to the axle
Not every steel can be blued and the amount and durability of the blueing will vary from one alloy to another.
I would imagine the axle is plain old .o5 carbon steel.
A rifle barrel in the USA is most likely 4140 which is by the way a grade of stainless steel and why it can be blued so well.
Blueing plain carbon steels requires a higher temperature process, usually salt bath treatment and even then the blueing might not take or offer very low rust protection.

Jun 15, 2020#54

Westman

The cold bluing process offers a degree of protection from corrosion and rust, but yes, the barrel or axle would need to be oiled at the finish of the process. The video I provided shows the cold bluing process being used with heat, and the barrel oiled at the finish. The axle would need to be oiled at least once a season to augment the cold blue finish and help protect it. Just thinking out loud here, interesting concept.

Jun 15, 2020#55

B

bertsmobile1

Westman said:
The cold bluing process offers a degree of protection from corrosion and rust, but yes, the barrel or axle would need to be oiled at the finish of the process. The video I provided shows the cold bluing process being used with heat, and the barrel oiled at the finish. The axle would need to be oiled at least once a season to augment the cold blue finish and help protect it. Just thinking out loud here, interesting concept.

Please continue to think out loud.
We all benefit from those who can think outside the square.
Problem with most of these is owners do not bother to do routine maintenance.
Then when they do they do it wrong
The axle bush needs a DRY lubricant like TRI-FLOW which is what I use here.
Way too many just squirt it with WD 40 & think the job is done not realizing that WD 40 is not a lubricant and further more it causes the plastic to soften & swell.

For the same reason I am a little apprehensive about blueing as a viable option as gun oil does tend to collect dust.

So I suppose we now need a gun toting crash test dummy to see if it works.

Jun 15, 2020#56

B

Briantii

I haven't had any real issues with corrosion but blueing it does sound interesting.

bertsmobile1 - Regarding maintenance - I've tried the following and never really made it through a season without it degrading significantly and early:

1) Cleaned adjusters and bushings, used bearing grease as lube - Worked OK for ~5 - 10 hours

2) Replaced adjusters and bushings, replaced belt, bearing grease as lube - Worked OK for ~5 - 10 hours

3) Replaced adjusters and bushings with "new" design since my old replacements were defective according to Honda - bearing grease as lube - Worked OK for ~5 - 10 hours

4) Cleaned adjusters and bushings - tried graphite dry lube - Worked OK for half a season, but would still want to drag, helped to tilt the mower to redistribute the graphite occasionally. Not kidding.

5) Replaced the adjusters and bushings - teflon dry lube spray - Worked great for ~1 hour, worked OK for ~1 hour, then worked horrible and locked up SOLID. I do NOT recommend this method.

6) Installed grease fittings on the adjusters - Worked awesome for a while, but required constant greasing as the grease would get dirty. Basically I was greasing it almost every mow and the bushings were getting PACKED with gunk. Eventually it just pushed the seals out and failed to do much of anything. It basically got me through an entire season of decent mowing though.

7) This experiment here - Added extra dust seals for the wheel side, converted from plastic bushings to needle bearings. So far this is working by far the best of anything I've tried. If it makes it a full season without me having to think about it, it'll be a massive success in my opinion.

My yard is less than 1/2 an acre. It's STUPID hilly, and pretty dusty at times. I mow twice a week for about 45 minutes. I believe annual maintenance and cleaning of this system should be considered "reasonable" however I've not found a setup yet (besides POTENTIALLY the bearings) that allow me to run it all season without getting significant drag when pulling it backwards. I believe most people have this problem, but simply aren't tuned into it until it gets really bad or they somehow realize it. The design is flawed, not my maintenance of my mower.

Jun 15, 2020#57

Westman

You have the patience of a mountain lion and deserve an award for perseverance. By trial and error, you are engineering a fix that should have been originally implemented by Honda. I purchased my HRR2168VKA from Craigslist last year for $125. It needed a new carb, mower blades, pull rope, etc. I resurrected it into a thing of beauty that runs like a champ. Seems my "cleanliness" with this machine (I spray it down top to bottom after each mow) has led this locking wheels in reverse phenomena (for lack of a better word). Cleaning it off with the hose led to rust which has locked up those bushings...sigh. I can get by with it for now the way it is, but this fall when things start to cool down here in NW Arkansas, I'll buy those needle bearings from Amazon and have a machine shop put them in for me. The mower is too good to kick to the curb, but I don't think I would have had the patience you have had. Anyways, keep up the good work and documenting your trail and error fixes. Much appreciated.
""

Jun 15, 2020#58

B

bertsmobile1

I have stayed out of this the best I could, had you not mentioned blueing I would have stayed in lurk mode .
We do not get this model down here as all the Hondas have single lever height adjustment so the front & rear axle arrangements are different.
Thus we do not have the same problem you have been dealing with.
THe USA is the only market that has the 4 wheel individual height adjustment and Honda is the biggest selling push mower world wide.
So for me it is lack of any attempt to lubricate the bush is the big problem.
The axels on the ones down here are all heavily zinc plated and rarely rust heavy enough to lock the drive.

Jun 15, 2020#59

B

Briantii

Westman said:
You have the patience of a mountain lion and deserve an award for perseverance. By trial and error, you are engineering a fix that should have been originally implemented by Honda.
""

Heh, thanks but I’ve had mine for a long time so it’s like one experiment per year. My wife seriously supports me getting a new commercial mower just so she can stop hearing about it though.

I really just think if we put our heads together we can figure out something great. Look at the idea Civic brought with the felt - if that works long term or helps a lot then it’s way easier than the bearing idea. Maybe a combination approach will make the system bullet proof? When it’s working it’s a great mower, but this flaw is really annoying.

Jun 15, 2020#60

B

Briantii

bertsmobile1 said:
I have stayed out of this the best I could, had you not mentioned blueing I would have stayed in lurk mode .
We do not get this model down here as all the Hondas have single lever height adjustment so the front & rear axle arrangements are different.
Thus we do not have the same problem you have been dealing with.
THe USA is the only market that has the 4 wheel individual height adjustment and Honda is the biggest selling push mower world wide.
So for me it is lack of any attempt to lubricate the bush is the big problem.
The axels on the ones down here are all heavily zinc plated and rarely rust heavy enough to lock the drive.

Im jealous. Must be nice having the proper engineering from the get go.

Jun 16, 2020#61

B

bertsmobile1

Just one of those things
The biggest selling mower down here with better than 80% of the market when Honda launched big time into Oz had swing back blades, single lever height adjustment & an air snorkel
So Honda had to offer the same advanced features,
They launched with a USA model a cash back deal for contractors which virtually made the mowers free but even then they flopped
So the next new model ditched the 4 individual height adjusters and sold like hotcakes to commercial customers being only 2" smaller than the Victa Super 24 but 2/3 the weight & self propelled to boot.
The residentials followed with a similar spec but when the 3rd model hit they ditched the snorkels on the residentials and then on the commercials.

Jun 16, 2020#62

Westman

Here is a follow up on cold bluing from an individual (appears to be a machinist) who demonstrates the cold bluing process on a cold steel "axle". Interesting for those so inclined...
Link:

We are not so much interested in appearance as we are protection of the axle from the elements (rust). I'll use this process when I rehab my mower based on Brantii's experience later this fall.

Jun 17, 2020#63

gotomow

bertsmobile1 said:
I have stayed out of this the best I could, had you not mentioned blueing I would have stayed in lurk mode .
We do not get this model down here as all the Hondas have single lever height adjustment so the front & rear axle arrangements are different.
Thus we do not have the same problem you have been dealing with.
THe USA is the only market that has the 4 wheel individual height adjustment and Honda is the biggest selling push mower world wide.
So for me it is lack of any attempt to lubricate the bush is the big problem.
The axels on the ones down here are all heavily zinc plated and rarely rust heavy enough to lock the drive.

The axels here are made from the cheapest possible metal possible and rust and pit just looking at them. I have turned over Honda mowers on the sales floor and some of the axels are starting the rusting process brand new! Calling them metal is being too generous because it's cheap a$$ junk pot metal unworthy of anything much less putting on a machine. My third year into using my piece of junk Honda I made the mistake of picking up leaves that were slightly damp,(barely) at the end of the season the weather turned to snow very quickly so the mower got put away. That next season is when I started having a problem it was so bad I turned the mower over thinking the belt needed replacing and was shocked how badly rusted the axel was. My MTD never had any problems like this I could pickup leaves with a dusting of frost or dampness and that thing kept on trucking.
I've been using CRC 2-26 Multi-Purpose lube that is plastic safe and I spray before and after use.

Jun 17, 2020#64

C

civic

Everyone has their own opinion some good some bad. Everything that is man mad will have issues. Most issues are from users that don't understand the product or use the product incorrectly and blame the manufacturer while others find a way to improve it and relay this to others for help. I don't consider my Honda a piece of junk it mows and mulches better than any mower I have owned. I have done a lot more maintenance to this mower than any I have own but this mower has lasted me over 10 years and counting. During the summer I mow twice weekly and winters once or twice a month. It has never failed to start. Just the rear wheel lock up is annoying and takes sometime to maintain. I have tried many things like graphite which lasted a month so. I have been taking this mower apart every year to lube the bushing with a good quality lithium grease and that is working. I was trying to figure out what I could do to keep water, grass, and dirt from entering the gears and I thought using some felt might work and so far so good but I am not done for the season. Another thought would be using two seals and the felt. I do have the needle bearing set up but have not installed yet. Not sure I will due to thinking the needle bearings may eat up the shaft. I want to see how others here have to say about it after the season is over and they inspect. Same with me with the felt. I want to take it apart and inspect to see if the grease is still there or not. We all know the issue with these mowers and with many ideas we can find a way to repair it for the long haul. The needle bears are a great idea but costly. If that's the permanent fix it is worth the money, however my idea is great too with very little cost time will tell. I hope other ideas come about. I don't know it this would work or if there is such a bearing but 2 sealed roller bearing in the adjuster. Not sure if anyone has looked into that.

Jun 17, 2020#65

C

civic

I found this bearing and I may use this instead of the needle bearing set up.
R1212-2RS Ball Bearing

Jun 18, 2020#66

Westman

civic said:
I found this bearing and I may use this instead of the needle bearing set up.
R1212-2RS Ball Bearing

These bearings have different dimensions ( 1/2" x 3/4" x 5/32") than the needle bearings previously mentioned earlier in this thread. Is this correct? If so, how would these fit the drilled out adjuster? FYI, I picked up the 7/8" needle bearings from Amazon you mentioned and will give them a try along with the extra dust seal on wheel side. These extra dust seals need to be epoxied? Where specifically on the axle do these go? Thanks again.

Jun 18, 2020#67

S

slomo

I had a couple of those that wouldn't back up. I couldn't sell them as most fat lazy American's like ME, want a working self propel. Good luck on a mod/fix guys.

slomo

Jun 18, 2020#68

C

civic

Westman said:
These bearings have different dimensions ( 1/2" x 3/4" x 5/32") than the needle bearings previously mentioned earlier in this thread. Is this correct? If so, how would these fit the drilled out adjuster? FYI, I picked up the 7/8" needle bearings from Amazon you mentioned and will give them a try along with the extra dust seal on wheel side. These extra dust seals need to be epoxied? Where specifically on the axle do these go? Thanks again.

Yes, you are correct. These have the same I.D. and a little larger O.D. by 1/16 of an inch. However these are much thinner bearings so I would use two per adjuster. These are cheap bearings you can buy a 10 pack on ebay for $10. I really like the idea of these as long as they fit snug on the shaft. The reason I like this is that you never need to re grease them, you may have to replace them. I am going to try this instead of needle bearing even though I have the needle bearing set up.

Jun 18, 2020#69

B

Briantii

civic said:
Yes, you are correct. These have the same I.D. and a little larger O.D. by 1/16 of an inch. However these are much thinner bearings so I would use two per adjuster. These are cheap bearings you can buy a 10 pack on ebay for $10. I really like the idea of these as long as they fit snug on the shaft. The reason I like this is that you never need to re grease them, you may have to replace them. I am going to try this instead of needle bearing even though I have the needle bearing set up.

Nice find! I was originally looking for ball bearings but didn’t find any that really fit so that’s how I ended up with the needle bearings. I’ll be curious how they work for you, I think sealed balls would be superior.

Jun 21, 2020#70

S

sottis

Hey Civic, do you have a part number for that felt and where did you get it?

Jun 21, 2020#71

C

civic

I went to Lowes since it is up the street here is the link. I am sure HD has this to in a different brand. It is approx. 1/4" thick. I have more than enough and I just cut a strip to fit. Trial and error.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/SoftTouch-2-Pack-4-1-2-in-X-6-in-Gray-Felt-Pad/1000549263

Jun 22, 2020#72

Westman

tayto said:
wondering how this is working? i bought a used hrr216k9vka last season, used it with out the self propelling feature. tore it apart last week and found one of the wheels seized. tried to order updated parta from honda but back ordered until end of april. while I like the needle bearings not sure if the shaft will wear prematurely. did ypu ever think to use some bronze oilite bushings?

Bronze Oillite bushings are bronze bushings impregnated with oil. As the axle turns, it is lubricated by the bushing. Interesting concept and food for thought. Honda would have been much better off using those rather than the cheap plastic bushings they opted for originally. Are they better than needle bearings? Would bronze bushings (self lubricating) hold up for the long term? I picked up some needle bearings from Amazon (1/2"x11/16"x7/8"). They were packed with a clear grease which looked a lot like petroleum jelly. I flushed that grease out and repacked them with Redline CV-2. If these needle bearings fail, it won't be because of cheap grease not protecting them. OIllite bushings: https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Beari...?dchild=1&qid=1592859615&s=industrial&sr=1-26

Jun 22, 2020#73

C

civic

Westman said:
Bronze Oillite bushings are bronze bushings impregnated with oil. As the axle turns, it is lubricated by the bushing. Interesting concept and food for thought. Honda would have been much better off using those rather than the cheap plastic bushings they opted for originally. Are they better than needle bearings? Would bronze bushings (self lubricating) hold up for the long term? I picked up some needle bearings from Amazon (1/2"x11/16"x7/8"). They were packed with a clear grease which looked a lot like petroleum jelly. I flushed that grease out and repacked them with Redline CV-2. If these needle bearings fail, it won't be because of cheap grease not protecting them. OIllite bushings: https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Beari...?dchild=1&qid=1592859615&s=industrial&sr=1-26

Bronze bushings would work too. They would also need greasing, will wear and most likely need to be replaced every few years. I did get my sealed bearings today and taking them to the machinist tomorrow. They are small bearings but I do believe they will work the best. You did the right thing by replacing the grease. My needle bearings came dry. There are lots of options here and all look very promising. I didn't mind re-lubing the bushings every year but it gets old fast and want a more permanent repair.

Jun 25, 2020#74

Westman

I got my parts back from the machinist today. Needle bearings pressed into the new adjusters (L+R). I'll be starting tomorrow on disassembly of the rear wheel assembly. I'll be sanding down the axle and smoothing it out, taking my time. I'll report back and provide some pics as I progress...

Jun 25, 2020#75

C

civic

Here is a picture of my sealed bearing mod.

Jun 26, 2020#76

C

civic

Westman said:
I got my parts back from the machinist today. Needle bearings pressed into the new adjusters (L+R). I'll be starting tomorrow on disassembly of the rear wheel assembly. I'll be sanding down the axle and smoothing it out, taking my time. I'll report back and provide some pics as I progress...

Westman, take a pic and post please

Jun 26, 2020#77

Westman

civic said:
Westman, take a pic and post please

Ok, started at 10:00 am this morning and finished up around 5:00 pm with lunch break in between. I could probably cut this time in half now that I know a little bit more of what Im doing. The old adjusters and plastic bearings were totally shot. The right side was seized up. I had to use a ball peen hammer to gently persuade it off the axle. Axle was rusted up and pitted pretty good. First pic shows the seized adjuster with the other in the background. I'll save the adjusters, clean them up and probably bore them out (11/16") for bronze bushings in case the needle bearings I used don't pan out. Getting everything off wasn't that difficult, just needed patience and persistence. Struggled with that clutch cable, getting it off until I figured it out. I sanded down the axle, at least the area where it would be in contact with the needle bearing. Started with 100 grit and worked up to 600 grit. Got the axle shiny. Certainly less pitted and no rust. I got the thing back together and noticed a small spring laying on the garage floor under the mower. Not the small springs at the end of the axle, but a little bigger. I should take a picture of it and see if you guys know what it is, LOL. I have no idea. After some trial and error, installing the rear wheels too far forward and then fixing that, everything went back together. I previously drained the oil and gas as I had the mower upside down to work on. I use Redline 10w-40 oil and premium (no ethanol) gas. Got that done and the engine started 2nd pull. No locked wheels when pulling in reverse. It has just a little resistance, but not much and certainly way better than it was. I also replaced the drive belt from the trans to the blade. That seems to be ok. Seems more responsive than it was, like it wants to immediately "go". Looks like this was a "fix" but only time will tell. Now I need to start mowing and see how it does. I'll report back any issues. Thanks guys for the valuable info and willingness to share success or failures. We'll get this thing fixed for sure! Thanks

Jun 26, 2020#78

Westman

Here is the pic of that spring I found under the mower when I finished. I have no idea where it came from, but it must have come from the mower, some where. Anybody have any idea?

Jun 26, 2020#79

C

civic

Your axle looks great. I have never removed the trans. I polish the axle with scotch brite pad. Mine is pitted but not bad. I have no idea what that spring is. Are you sure it came off your mower?

Jun 26, 2020#80

B

Briantii

Westman said:
Here is the pic of that spring I found under the mower when I finished. I have no idea where it came from, but it must have come from the mower, some where. Anybody have any idea?

I believe the spring is for your pinion gear on axle. See which side doesn’t click when you turn the wheels forward. You need that for sure. You maybe only one wheel drive without it.

Also nice job getting the bearings done! If it helps, mine is still holding up great. Zero issues since Late September / early October when I did it. I do like Civic’s ball bearing setup better - that’s what I’d originally envisioned but never could find the right combo to make it work.

Jun 26, 2020#81

Westman

Here is my beast, HRR2168VKA (Circa 2012) eight years old. Great mower. I had to purchase it last year used when I ruptured my achilles tendon and needed the self powered rear wheels as I have lawn on approx 25-30 degree slope in back and needed the self powered assistance. I still have my previous mower, EGO 20" battery powered push. Great mower. Now that my achilles has healed I could go back to the EGO, but I like the Honda too much to give it up. I think the spring came from the mower.

Jun 26, 2020#82

B

Briantii

civic said:
Here is a picture of my sealed bearing mod.

That looks perfect. That combined with the felt is probably the most bulletproof setup there is. I predict years of trouble free use with it.

Jun 26, 2020#83

C

civic

That spring looks too big for the RATCHET RETURN SPRING or it has been stretched. The ratchet return spring goes under the key. Look this up in the parts diagram.

Jun 26, 2020#84

Westman

Briantii said:
I believe the spring is for your pinion gear on axle. See which side doesn’t click when you turn the wheels forward. You need that for sure. You maybe only one wheel drive without it.

Also nice job getting the bearings done! If it helps, mine is still holding up great. Zero issues since Late September / early October when I did it. I do like Civic’s ball bearing setup better - that’s what I’d originally envisioned but never could find the right combo to make it work.

Both sides click, that spring is larger than the springs that sits under the half-moon ratchet thingy.

Jun 26, 2020#85

B

Briantii

Westman said:
Both sides click, that spring is larger than the springs that sits under the half-moon ratchet thingy.

Ah my bad. I couldn’t get a sense of scale there. Not sure then.

Jun 26, 2020#86

Westman

I wanted to add the 2nd oil/grease seal, but the machine shop didn't follow my directions and pressed the needle bearings flush to the wheel side. I wanted them to center the bearing so that both sides of the adjuster could have the oil seals, but it won't be. I didn't notice it until I got home and looked at them. Bummer. I'm going to add the felt mod and keep my fingers crossed. If need be, I'll re mod my used adjusters I took off the mower today. I may copy Civic's mod as I like the ball bearing setup as well. I should have took the pressed adjusters back to the machine shop, but I just wanted to get this thing fixed or at least better than it was. That machine shop was expensive, so next time I'll pick up a cheap Harbor Freight drill press and do the entire thing myself. I like doing this stuff anyway as I am retired and need stuff to keep me busy, COVID19 and all.

Jun 26, 2020#87

C

civic

I have the same mower model #. Not sure how old it is but my engine says it meets 2011 emissions. Mine does not look as good as yours. Mine has been through hell and back plus 2 floods and still works good. One of the floods it was under 4 ft. of water and found it upside down. I changed the oil pulled the spark plug turned it over a few times and the damn thing ran. I never drained the fuel it was fine. I had a 1/2 tank of fuel and it was at the same level. I also had to clean and lube the rear bushings, but did this after the next season since I didn't have a home but still used it for a year. Yes the rear wheels where locking up but had to deal with it. It has always started on the first pull, I never have to pull hard, matter of fact I see how lightly I can pull for it to start. Kind of a game for me. I have considered an EGO but if it floods it is all over.

Jun 26, 2020#88

C

civic

Westman said:
I wanted to add the 2nd oil/grease seal, but the machine shop didn't follow my directions and pressed the needle bearings flush to the wheel side. I wanted them to center the bearing so that both sides of the adjuster could have the oil seals, but it won't be. I didn't notice it until I got home and looked at them. Bummer. I'm going to add the felt mod and keep my fingers crossed. If need be, I'll re mod my used adjusters I took off the mower today. I may copy Civic's mod as I like the ball bearing setup as well. I should have took the pressed adjusters back to the machine shop, but I just wanted to get this thing fixed or at least better than it was. That machine shop was expensive, so next time I'll pick up a cheap Harbor Freight drill press and do the entire thing myself. I like doing this stuff anyway as I am retired and need stuff to keep me busy, COVID19 and all.

My machinist but it on a lath so I would get a tight fit. However with the sealed bearings he made it a tab bit big and I may epoxy the one at the drilled end and or us the extra seal. If you have not installed it you maybe able to press the bearing in more depending on how much they drilled.

Jun 26, 2020#89

Westman

civic said:
My machinist but it on a lath so I would get a tight fit. However with the sealed bearings he made it a tab bit big and I may epoxy the one at the drilled end and or us the extra seal. If you have not installed it you maybe able to press the bearing in more depending on how much they drilled.

I installed it today but before I did, I did try to press the bearing in but chickened out when I was having to put a lot of pull/pressure on my vise but the bearing just didn't seem like it wanted to move. Last thing I wanted to do was f-up what was already done. I'm happy with what I have now, we'll see how it transpires. Sorry to hear about the flooding. You folks in Houston have probably had enough rain.

Jun 27, 2020#90

C

civic

Westman said:
I installed it today but before I did, I did try to press the bearing in but chickened out when I was having to put a lot of pull/pressure on my vise but the bearing just didn't seem like it wanted to move. Last thing I wanted to do was f-up what was already done. I'm happy with what I have now, we'll see how it transpires. Sorry to hear about the flooding. You folks in Houston have probably had enough rain.

Do you have a fish scale or something like this to measure how many lbs. it takes for pull back?
As for floods I have flooded 3 times and now we bulldozed the house and built 6 ft. high. Hurricane Harvey was a mess and the last straw. I never thought I needed flood insurance and glad I had it all three times. If you guys don't have flood ins. consider it.

Jun 27, 2020#91

Westman

I just purchased a luggage scale for $6 on Amazon. I should have it Sunday. I’ll measure the lbs in pull back and let you know. I live at the top of a ridge. We get some biblical rainfall and flash flooding but are immune to floods because we are up high and the ground displaces water quickly since it is mostly shale rock. A couple months ago we had 7” of rain in one hour. It all ran off. We are lucky where we are.

Jun 28, 2020#92

Westman

Ok, my el cheapo luggage scale didn't arrive today from Amazon, so I'll measure tomorrow if it arrives. In the mean time, I'll post these diagrams for those new to this Honda inspired engineering debacle. The trans assembly, close up of the adjuster assembly and the rear wheel assembly for the HRR2168VKA, probably almost identical to other Honda mowers in the same family.

Jun 28, 2020#93

Westman

Question for the forum: How many here mulch as opposed to rear bagging the grass clippings? Mulching I would think might contribute to more debris flying around the under carriage. Briantii's addition of the second oil/grease seal on the wheel side of the adjuster is critical to keeping the adjuster bearings free of debris. This could be the key to the entire issue. I'm probably going to go back and add the second seal since I left it out. Will require more work, but I think it is worth it. I'm a slow learner, but I usually get there eventually.

Jun 28, 2020#94

B

Briantii

Westman said:
Question for the forum: How many here mulch as opposed to rear bagging the grass clippings? Mulching I would think might contribute to more debris flying around the under carriage. Briantii's addition of the second oil/grease seal on the wheel side of the adjuster is critical to keeping the adjuster bearings free of debris. This could be the key to the entire issue. I'm probably going to go back and add the second seal since I left it out. Will require more work, but I think it is worth it. I'm a slow learner, but I usually get there eventually.

I go back and forth probably 50/50. The more I think about it I really think sealing up the side is the real secret. Civics felt idea is really good. Combine that with the extra seal and the plastic bushings maybe good enough. I do believe bearings are better, but may not be as critical as the seal.

Jun 28, 2020#95

C

civic

The only time I don't mulch is in the Spring when weeds are present. After that around Mid April I mulch 100%.
Update on felt. We had lots of rain last week. I mowed when there was an opportunity on Thursday. The grass was moist not dry but not wet. I mowed today and I felt the mower was a bit hard to roll back. However the grass was very thick. I will measure the pull back and report back. I have been noticing lately the mower will be a bit hard to pull back at times but when engine off and on concrete no issues. It is possible I need to adjust the smart drive cable.

Jun 29, 2020#96

B

Briantii

civic said:
The only time I don't mulch is in the Spring when weeds are present. After that around Mid April I mulch 100%.
Update on felt. We had lots of rain last week. I mowed when there was an opportunity on Thursday. The grass was moist not dry but not wet. I mowed today and I felt the mower was a bit hard to roll back. However the grass was very thick. I will measure the pull back and report back. I have been noticing lately the mower will be a bit hard to pull back at times but when engine off and on concrete no issues. It is possible I need to adjust the smart drive cable.

It wouldn't surprise me if you're still getting dust and gunk in past the outer portion where the dust cover goes against the wheel. I wonder if there is room to felt line that larger area as well.

Jun 29, 2020#97

Westman

Ok, I measured the pull on my mower. From a dead stop on a level concrete floor (garage) going backward it measured 4.8 pounds. Once it was moving, 3.5-3.8 pounds.

Jun 29, 2020#98

S

slomo

Westman said:
Ok, I measured the pull on my mower. From a dead stop on a level concrete floor (garage) going backward it measured 4.8 pounds. Once it was moving, 3.5-3.8 pounds. Pic is what came from Amazon today.

How much out in the yard? Up hill? Tall grass? Windy days? We need a spread sheet please.

slomo

Jun 29, 2020#99

C

civic

Westman said:
Ok, I measured the pull on my mower. From a dead stop on a level concrete floor (garage) going backward it measured 4.8 pounds. Once it was moving, 3.5-3.8 pounds.

I just checked mine and it is about 5.0 from start to 3.5 once rolling. This is after a few times of measuring. So we are about the same so my felt must be working so far.

Jun 29, 2020#100

C

civic

slomo said:
How much out in the yard? Up hill? Tall grass? Windy days? We need a spread sheet please.

slomo

slomo, like the idea go ahead with that spreadsheet. We would also need to know the degrees uphill, might as well do down hill too, how tall the grass is, what kind of grass, and how windy.

Jun 30, 2020#101

Westman

Just a matter of time before my rear adjusters start locking my rear wheels again since I didn't put oil/grease seals on the wheel side of the assembly(s). I cleaned up my old adjusters and purchased two 1/2"x5/8"x3/4" bronze oillite bushings for $3.75 ea. These slid perfectly into the raceway of the adjusters. No drilling out was necessary. I epoxied the bushings and oil/grease seals on both sides. I used JB Weld epoxy, the kind that sets in 5-6 hrs in case I messed up and needed to wipe off excess, etc. 5 minute set time on most epoxies leaves little room for error that's why I went with the longer setting stuff. I'll set these aside to dry and then re-install in a couple days. We will have three different methods to arrive at a fix. Civic, using ball bearings. Briantii using needle bearings and the bronze oilite bushings I'm using. With sealed bearings/bushings, I expect all three methods to produce good results (fingers crossed). My method may be shorter lived depending on how long the bushings hold up. There will be a 1/4" gap inside the raceway between the seal and the bushing on one side. I'll fill that up with CV2 grease before inserting the axle. That should give the bushing another source of lubrication besides the oil impregnated in the bushing (Oillite). I'll report back once I get these installed and throw in a scale measurement as well. Peace...

Jun 30, 2020#102

S

slomo

How does oil get inside a bronze metallic bushing?

slomo

Jun 30, 2020#103

C

civic

You know maybe all we need is just a seal on the other side and that is it. A good lube and your done for a while.

Jun 30, 2020#104

B

Briantii

slomo said:
How does oil get inside a bronze metallic bushing?

slomo

Oilite - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jun 30, 2020#105

B

Briantii

civic said:
You know maybe all we need is just a seal on the other side and that is it. A good lube and your done for a while.

That’s what I’m really starting to wonder myself. For now my setup is still doing great and I’m not touching it, but I’d be tempted to try just an extra seal next time.

Jun 30, 2020#106

S

slomo

Briantii said:
Oilite - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It said honing and sharpening an oilite bearing is NOT recommended. It removes the pores that hold the oil. Failure will occur. So wear and tear from a mower will leave that bearing dry.

slomo

Jul 4, 2020#107

Westman

Mowed my lawn for the third time since going to needle bearings a few weeks ago. No problems at all UNTIL I sprayed down the top of the mower, not the undersides. Water must have entered the wheel side needle bearing where I have no seal. It locked up the rear wheels solid, just like it was originally. I moved the mower back and forth a dozen times and was able to get the rear wheels unstuck and back to "normal". I have since mowed the lawn again and everything is ok. I think this helps prove the wheel side grease/oil seal is a must in order to avoid what happened to me. Without that additional seal on the wheel side, avoid any kind of wet situations, etc. When the weather gets cooler, I/m going to try and press that wheel side needle bearing in a quarter inch so that I can get a seal in there. If successful, I'll stay with the current configuration. If not, I'll get two more needle bearings and stay with that instead of oillite bushings. Since the bearing got wet and I was able to get it loose again, it seems like it's rolling more free in reverse than it was originally. Maybe I'll leave everything alone and see how far this goes. News at 11...

Jul 4, 2020#108

Westman

I forgot to mention, one additional "mod" I'm going to do once I get back inside the wheel assembly, is to add two pieces of 5/8" shrink tubing (marine grade) to help eliminate rust and corrosion on the axle. Here is the Amazon link to what I picked up: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FPGF9XH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I plan on overlapping the tubing on the adjuster assembly side to help add an additional "seal".

Jul 4, 2020#109

C

civic

Westman said:
Mowed my lawn for the third time since going to needle bearings a few weeks ago. No problems at all UNTIL I sprayed down the top of the mower, not the undersides. Water must have entered the wheel side needle bearing where I have no seal. It locked up the rear wheels solid, just like it was originally. I moved the mower back and forth a dozen times and was able to get the rear wheels unstuck and back to "normal". I have since mowed the lawn again and everything is ok. I think this helps prove the wheel side grease/oil seal is a must in order to avoid what happened to me. Without that additional seal on the wheel side, avoid any kind of wet situations, etc. When the weather gets cooler, I/m going to try and press that wheel side needle bearing in a quarter inch so that I can get a seal in there. If successful, I'll stay with the current configuration. If not, I'll get two more needle bearings and stay with that instead of oillite bushings. Since the bearing got wet and I was able to get it loose again, it seems like it's rolling more free in reverse than it was originally. Maybe I'll leave everything alone and see how far this goes. News at 11...

Westman, did you use felt? If not it is an easy mod w/o disassembling everything.

Jul 5, 2020#110

Westman

civic said:
Westman, did you use felt? If not it is an easy mod w/o disassembling everything.

Not sure where the felt goes on that plastic cover? But I did buy some: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MTMXCGC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Does it go on the gear side of the pinion or on the other side facing the mower? Thanks!

Jul 5, 2020#111

C

civic

Westman said:
Not sure where the felt goes on that plastic cover? But I did buy some: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MTMXCGC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Does it go on the gear side of the pinion or on the other side facing the mower? Thanks!

It goes on the other side. One facing the deck and the felt sticks to the lip if you bought self adhesive. Cut thin strips.

Jul 5, 2020#112

Westman

Thanks, Civic!

Jul 6, 2020#113

C

civic

Briantii, you mentioned you used ATF in the trans. when you did this did you replace the o ring seal? I wonder if I open mine up I will need to replace it. This o ring is close to $20 might as well buy a new trans. for $30 more.

Jul 6, 2020#114

B

Briantii

civic said:
Briantii, you mentioned you used ATF in the trans. when you did this did you replace the o ring seal? I wonder if I open mine up I will need to replace it. This o ring is close to $20 might as well buy a new trans. for $30 more.

Nope, it was in good shape and has never leaked.

Jul 7, 2020#115

Westman

Part II

Pulled the rear wheel assembly to see if I could press the needle bearings into the wheel side of the adjuster's. The machine shop pressed the needle bearings flush to the wheel side, not allowing the insert of the grease/oil seal. I pressed it with my 6 inch vise using a 3/8 socket that would press the bearing without doing any damage. I was unsuccessful. That needle valve was really in tight, it would not move. I damaged the outer edge of the bearing making it unusable. Time to implement Plan B. I pulled the trans assembly and sanded down the entire axle. It was badly pitted toward the center with lots of rust. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that the axle on the wheel side had damage in the area where the needle bearing was. Two concentric rings, I could feel the edges with my fingers. Looks like one of the needle valves was failing and scoring the axle. See first 2 pics below. This was surprising, as the needle valves were only in a few mowings. I sanded the axle down and installed the new adjusters with bronze oillite bushings. Both ends of the bushings are sealed with the Honda grease/oil seals (epoxied). Plenty of Redline CV2 for additional lubrication. I attempted to install the shrink tubing to cover the axle, but that was a failure. The shrink tubing would not shrink to seal the 1/2" axle. The shrink tubing was 5/8", which should have been ok, but it just wouldn't shrink down. I used a hair dryer. It was a good idea, but it just didn't work out. One plus, using the 5/8" oillite bushings allowed me to insert them into the stock Honda adjusters without drilling/modification. That allowed the Honda grease/oil seals to seat very well. I epoxied them anyway. After getting everything back together, the mower offered about the same resistance on pull back (4.5- 5 lbs) as the previous needle bearings did. Got my fingers crossed, I'll report back how things go as this summer mowing season progresses. Thanks guys.

Jul 7, 2020#116

C

civic

Thanks for the update. I am still on felt only and holding up. Too frigging hot to mess with it now.

Jul 7, 2020#117

B

Briantii

Westman said:
Upon closer inspection, I noticed that the axle on the wheel side had damage in the area where the needle bearing was. Two concentric rings, I could feel the edges with my fingers. Looks like one of the needle valves was failing and scoring the axle. See first 2 pics below. This was surprising, as the needle valves were only in a few mowings.

I really think the seals are a must with the needle bearings considering how much junk gets in there without them. I was gumming up the bushings in just a couple mows.

Jul 9, 2020#118

B

Briantii

Westman said:
This mower is going to change a life-long habit I have of washing down the top and undersides of the mower when finished. I like to keep my stuff clean, but the introduction of water potentially past the grass/oil seals and into the bearing causing rust and corrosion simply isn't worth it. End of season I'll take a wire brush and clean off the grass clippings from the under carriage and vacuum them out. I'll probably take a damp rag and wipe off the top after every mowing, but no more water. Honda should be taken to the wood shed for manufacturing such a defective rear wheel assembly and selling it for 8-10 years? The axle should have been made of higher quality steel. The rust and corrosion on my axle was terrible. Those plastic bearings used in the adjusters would have probably worked better if Honda would have provided another grease/oil seal on the wheel side. I know, I'm peaching to the choir. Thanks, Briantii for opening this thread and creating dialog on how we can collectively try to make this product better, and to Civic for his input, especially the felt seals mod. The felt I bought was too think and stiff to use, it was really hard to cut, so I ended up using a Scotch-brite scouring pad I cut to fit the opening on the wheel cover. It was just thick enough to work and easy enough to cut and shape to fit the opening.

Regarding cleaning - I use my leaf blower to blow it off. I wash it every few years... maybe. As long as you’re not mowing in the rain it gets it pretty clean. I don’t worry about the underside of the deck. I’ve not had any rust issues. Mild surface rust at worst. And no problem- I’m hoping we can get this thing sorted. I love civics ball bearing option, but mine is still doing great with the needle bearings. I’m on the fence if I should run to failure or tear down and inspect at the end of the season. Leaning towards running it to failure, but at some point it’s probably good to regrease it... so I’m not sure.

Jul 9, 2020#119

Westman

I am going to wait it out and see how the bronze oillite bushings do. Not as good an option as needle or ball bearings, but time will tell. Like you, if I have to go back in, I'll opt for ball bearings.

Jul 9, 2020#120

C

civic

Briantii said:
Regarding cleaning - I use my leaf blower to blow it off. I wash it every few years... maybe. As long as you’re not mowing in the rain it gets it pretty clean. I don’t worry about the underside of the deck. I’ve not had any rust issues. Mild surface rust at worst. And no problem- I’m hoping we can get this thing sorted. I love civics ball bearing option, but mine is still doing great with the needle bearings. I’m on the fence if I should run to failure or tear down and inspect at the end of the season. Leaning towards running it to failure, but at some point it’s probably good to regrease it... so I’m not sure.

Cleaning, I always use a leaf blower too. I never or very rarely use a hose. I have only cleaned under the deck a few times once just a few months ago when I changed the belt. Not much grass but I do think it improved the mulching. My mower looks well used a few surface rust issues but not worried. Remember this thing has been under water twice. I have a thing about keeping my stuff instead of buying new every few years so I maintain all my equipment more so than anyone else or close to it. I am dying to install the sealed bearings but so hot here in upper 90's and very humid plus all is working well. Between all of us here we will find a fix and it is nice that all of us has done something different and reporting their findings.

Jul 9, 2020#121

B

Briantii

Westman said:
I am going to wait it out and see how the bronze oillite bushings do. Not as good an option as needle or ball bearings, but time will tell. Like you, if I have to go back in, I'll opt for ball bearings.

I dunno, I think there is a good chance the oillite bushings will work well. If you notice the biggest difference in design between the HRX and all the other models is that the hrx actually gets a dust seal on BOTH sidesof the bushing.

Regarding ATF, I know it’s the wrong stuff, but the “right stuff” chipped a gear so I didn’t really care. Never had a problem with ATF and I’ve got more hours with ATF than with the right stuff.... sooo I’m not recommending it... just what I use.

Jul 14, 2020#122

Westman

Sharing some info: I did a search on Amazon to see if I could find an O ring that would fit the wheel cover opening where Civic used felt (his "felt" mod). I found an O-ring, silicone based that looked like it might fill that space and help block debris from entering. I ordered from Amazon and received them today. Looks like a perfect fit. I installed them on the mower, no issue, so this looks like an upgrade to Civics "felt" mod but using a silicone O-ring. Here are pics, and a link to Amazon where I found them. Amazon sent me quantity = 25. Civic and Briantii, If you want a pair, drop me a PM and I'll send a pair of them to you for your use, no charge. I have more of them than I'll ever use, lol. Amazon link:

318 Silicone O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Red, 1" ID, 1-3/8" OD, 3/16" Width (Pack of 25): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

www.amazon.com

Jul 15, 2020#123

B

Briantii

Westman said:
Sharing some info: I did a search on Amazon to see if I could find an O ring that would fit the wheel cover opening where Civic used felt (his "felt" mod). I found an O-ring, silicone based that looked like it might fill that space and help block debris from entering. I ordered from Amazon and received them today. Looks like a perfect fit. I installed them on the mower, no issue, so this looks like an upgrade to Civics "felt" mod but using a silicone O-ring. Here are pics, and a link to Amazon where I found them. Amazon sent me quantity = 25. Civic and Briantii, If you want a pair, drop me a PM and I'll send a pair of them to you for your use, no charge. I have more of them than I'll ever use, lol. Amazon link:

318 Silicone O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Red, 1" ID, 1-3/8" OD, 3/16" Width (Pack of 25): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

318 Silicone O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Red, 1" ID, 1-3/8" OD, 3/16" Width (Pack of 25): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

www.amazon.com

Nice! Thank you for the offer, I’ve got a whole assortment though so I’ve probably got one that will fit. I’ll give it a go next time I take mine apart. Thanks!

Jul 15, 2020#124

C

civic

Westman said:
Sharing some info: I did a search on Amazon to see if I could find an O ring that would fit the wheel cover opening where Civic used felt (his "felt" mod). I found an O-ring, silicone based that looked like it might fill that space and help block debris from entering. I ordered from Amazon and received them today. Looks like a perfect fit. I installed them on the mower, no issue, so this looks like an upgrade to Civics "felt" mod but using a silicone O-ring. Here are pics, and a link to Amazon where I found them. Amazon sent me quantity = 25. Civic and Briantii, If you want a pair, drop me a PM and I'll send a pair of them to you for your use, no charge. I have more of them than I'll ever use, lol. Amazon link:

318 Silicone O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Red, 1" ID, 1-3/8" OD, 3/16" Width (Pack of 25): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

318 Silicone O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Red, 1" ID, 1-3/8" OD, 3/16" Width (Pack of 25): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

www.amazon.com

Great find Westman, looks like a better mod. Great find! I was looking today for an oil seal that is 1/2 x 11/16 and found none, however I did find 1/2 x 3/4 at work today but only 1 so far. It fits very tight but I think I can make it work. This is an obsolete part and will be looking to find another in the next few days.

Aug 9, 2020#125

S

sottis

If I understand all of you guys explanation of this problem, I guess you're saying that the 'plastic' bushing on the drive shaft is the cause of all of the trouble and I would agree. My question is, why doesn't this plastic bushing wear down over time and sort of solve the problem itself? Or, could a person just ream that bushing a little bit and solve the problem? I wouldn't think that a little slop in that bushing would hurt anything.

Aug 9, 2020#126

gotomow

sottis said:
If I understand all of you guys explanation of this problem, I guess you're saying that the 'plastic' bushing on the drive shaft is the cause of all of the trouble and I would agree. My question is, why doesn't this plastic bushing wear down over time and sort of solve the problem itself? Or, could a person just ream that bushing a little bit and solve the problem? I wouldn't think that a little slop in that bushing would hurt anything.

The plastic bushing is only part of the problem. The drive shaft in this market is not heavily zinc plated as it is in other sales markets as we have learned from another forum member down under. So the drive shaft is very prone to rusting which causes burrs that dig into the plastic bushing. The last problem is the drive train itself. Unlike normal self powered mowers the Honda engages the gearbox gears in reverse so besides the bushing/shaft problem now you've got to overcome the gearbox motion too. All three problems combine to cause lock up wheels in reverse. If the gearbox motion were not involved you would probably have an ok mower for the most part.

Aug 11, 2020#127

C

civic

What I have found out is the grease in the bushing wears out and you have no lubrication. There is only one seal. Dirt and grime gets into the bushing. Just take your wheel apart after one season or less and you will find debris in the gear assembly and the bushing is dry. Once you clean everything up and re-lube all is good for a while. This is why we want a permanent fix. I am tired of doing this every year or twice a year.

Aug 12, 2020#128

D

drozdgreen

You guys have really helped me. I have a 12 year old HXA with the same problem. Dealer told me it would cost too much to install a new transmission so just throw out the mower and buy a new one. Yeah, right.

I went on McMaster Carr and bought four bronze bushings Part# 6391K214 .625" OD x .500" ID x .75" long. Since the shaft is .687" ID they slid right in. I didn't epoxy them or anything. Runs smooth as silk right now. If they start to move I will epoxy but right now a perfect solution at only $1.42 each! I will see how they hold up but right now it's better than new.

Aug 14, 2020#129

C

civic

drozdgreen, glad we can help, please kept us posted on how it works good or bad.

Aug 16, 2020#130

Westman

Update: My mower has been great since I added the second oil/grease seal(s) over a month ago. That was the crucial element to keeping the bushings/bearings clean and free from dirt and debris.

If anything changes, I'll update here. No news is good news!

Aug 22, 2020#131

B

Briantii

Glad to hear these ideas are working. As an update my mower is still flawless after nearly a full season of mowing twice a week since I converted and added the extra seal. So far so good here too.

Sep 6, 2020#132

C

civic

UPDATE: Finally installed the sealed bearings now my initial pull back on cement is 5 lbs and rolling 3.5 lbs. It rolls back without effort it feels the same forward and back. Now I need to mow to test. Also when I first disassembled I noticed grass in the pinion gears so my felt helped but not so much. However I did notice once I took the adjuster off the bushing was clean, no dirt and the axle was clean so maybe the felt helped. I also notice there are 3 places grass and dirt gets in and there is very little one can do.
1. where I put felt which is a help
2. where the bolt goes in on the plastic cover there is a small area where dirt can get in
3. where the cover goes around the wheel

Sep 6, 2020#133

Westman

Civic, did you add the second grease/oil seals @ rear wheels?

Sep 6, 2020#134

C

civic

Westman said:
Civic, did you add the second grease/oil seals @ rear wheels?

Yes I did, with sealed bearings I don't think it would make a difference.

Sep 6, 2020#135

C

civic

I also used the o ring instead of the felt.

Sep 12, 2020#136

C

civic

Finally dry enough to mow and this mower is awesome. Easier to use. Thanks Briantii for starting this thread and thanks for everyone else responding to it. Will keep you posted if anything changes or not.

Sep 19, 2020#137

D

Dickman

Just an update. I was on the verge of dumping this machine. Oh, it started great, and ran great. But the wheel lock-up when pulling in reverse was unforgivable. I still think Honda is grossly negligent on this design of the drive system.

Back in early June I installed the needle bearings and JB-welded the inside seals, as recommended by Briantii. At the time, the outside seals - felt or silicone rings, had not been suggested, so I didn't do those.

Also, I am a mulcher. I think there is a tendency for clippings to be thrashing about under the deck for a longer period of time, compared to bagging, which will contribute to more debris getting into the drive axle areas. I live in Minnesota, so our mowing season is winding down.

So far, there has been no change in force required to pull in reverse. I am delighted in the results. I won't be disappointed if I have to clean and re-grease after a season's worth of mowing. That sure as heck beats having to do it after every 2 or 3 mowings.

Thanks to Briantii and everyone for their suggestions and observations.

Sep 20, 2020#138

RetireeRon

Wow, I had no idea how wide spread this problem is. Since my mower is still under warranty it’s ready to go back to the dealer for the second time to fix the “won’t roll backwards” issue. It’s really hard for me to accept that Honda knows full well this is a design flaw yet won’t accept responsibility for it. They should do the right thing and come up with a permanent counter measure free of charge. There is absolutely no way I will ever buy another Honda mower after the many issues I’ve had with my HRX mower.

Sep 20, 2020#139

B

Briantii

RetireeRon said:
Wow, I had no idea how wide spread this problem is. Since my mower is still under warranty it’s ready to go back to the dealer for the second time to fix the “won’t roll backwards” issue. It’s really hard for me to accept that Honda knows full well this is a design flaw yet won’t accept responsibility for it. They should do the right thing and come up with a permanent counter measure free of charge. There is absolutely no way I will ever buy another Honda mower after the many issues I’ve had with my HRX mower.

Thats surprising to hear since the hrx (at least the newer ones) look to actually have dust seals on both sides of the bushing. It SHOULD be better than my HRR. Once you fix this issue though they are pretty decent mowers. Also all brands will have <something > but I agree this one is unbelievably stupid and difficult to forgive.

Good news is mine is still doing great, but Id recommend the ball bearing setup that Civic is running as I believe it’s a better solution.

Sep 20, 2020#140

gotomow

Briantii said:
Thats surprising to hear since the hrx (at least the newer ones) look to actually have dust seals on both sides of the bushing. It SHOULD be better than my HRR. Once you fix this issue though they are pretty decent mowers. Also all brands will have <something > but I agree this one is unbelievably stupid and difficult to forgive.

Good news is mine is still doing great, but Id recommend the ball bearing setup that Civic is running as I believe it’s a better solution.

I agree that the HRX is not as bad as the HRR given the same conditions. However in my case it was aggravating enough for me to sell my HRX and get a Toro super recycler which I love. I applaud all you guys with the creative solutions that you have come up with!

Sep 20, 2020#141

RetireeRon

Briantii said:
Thats surprising to hear since the hrx (at least the newer ones) look to actually have dust seals on both sides of the bushing. It SHOULD be better than my HRR. Once you fix this issue though they are pretty decent mowers. Also all brands will have <something > but I agree this one is unbelievably stupid and difficult to forgive.

Good news is mine is still doing great, but Id recommend the ball bearing setup that Civic is running as I believe it’s a better solution.

My mower was built in 2016 and I bought it in January 2017. It’s headed back to the dealer for the fifth time already. I paid well over $700.00 for this mower and at my age was sure this would be my last mower purchase. As aggravating as it is, I’ll keep it until February 2022 when the warranty expires and most likely get a Toro.

Oct 21, 2020#142

B

Briantii

Well, we made it!!! It’s officially over a year on my needle bearings and it’s still working great! Truly an HRR216 record

I haven’t decided if I’m going to open it up and do fresh grease or run it to failure, but the good news is we’re here and it works! Use Civics ball bearing plan if you want to convert though.

Oct 23, 2020#143

T

Trig

Needle bearings are not designed for side loads (movement along the shaft axis). Ball bearings are better for that. With the low weight of a mower it's likely OK for needle or ball. However, the bronze bushings are probably best of all. Normally they are sintered (made from powder) so that means there is a lot of space in the bushing to absorb lubricant. Some even have felt washers on the ends to act like oil reservoirs to supply the bushing. Seals that prevent water or contamination entering adds further reliability. I have an HRN216, hoping it continues to glide ...

Oct 23, 2020#144

gotomow

Trig said:
Needle bearings are not designed for side loads (movement along the shaft axis). Ball bearings are better for that. With the low weight of a mower it's likely OK for needle or ball. However, the bronze bushings are probably best of all. Normally they are sintered (made from powder) so that means there is a lot of space in the bushing to absorb lubricant. Some even have felt washers on the ends to act like oil reservoirs to supply the bushing. Seals that prevent water or contamination entering adds further reliability. I have an HRN216, hoping it continues to glide ...

The HRN series incorporates a new needed feature that Honda carelessly omitted from its HRR HRX mowers.
From Honda's web site about the new HRN:
"Improved Maneuverability
2-Way Ratchet System improves maneuverability and reduces effort to turn in a tight radius, drastically reducing pull-back force"
I wish Honda would have done that with my HRX.

Oct 24, 2020#145

T

Trig

gotomow said:
The HRN series incorporates a new needed feature that Honda carelessly omitted from its HRR HRX mowers.
From Honda's web site about the new HRN:
"Improved Maneuverability
2-Way Ratchet System improves maneuverability and reduces effort to turn in a tight radius, drastically reducing pull-back force"
I wish Honda would have done that with my HRX.

My HRN rolls very easy, either forward or back. A slight push on a smooth level surface and it rolls about 15 feet.

Oct 25, 2020#146

gotomow

Trig said:
My HRN rolls very easy, either forward or back. A slight push on a smooth level surface and it rolls about 15 feet.

That's nice to know. No Honda dealer around here. Lowes and Home depot have them way up high on their pallet rack shelves. Even then I wanted spin stop or roto stop its something they didn't have.

Oct 26, 2020#147

T

Trig

gotomow said:
That's nice to know. No Honda dealer around here. Lowes and Home depot have them way up high on their pallet rack shelves. Even then I wanted spin stop or roto stop its something they didn't have.

I was lucky.. Lowes had the one I wanted HRN216VYA. Nobody else including Home D, Honda Power Dealers or Lawn & Garden had them.

Nov 18, 2020#148

C

civic

Just a friendly update, still mowing weekly, now just once a week and the sealed bearings are still working like a charm. Here in Houston I mow year round. Yes it does slow down during the winter months but my mower sees yard at least 2 times a month (February). Will continue to update.

Nov 20, 2020#149

Westman

My mower is operating flawless as well. My mowing season here in NW Arkansas is over as my grass goes dormant for the winter. The key, in my opinion is keeping debris out of the bearings. The epoxy glued dust seals accomplish that. Even the Honda supplied plastic bushings would fare better staying clean.

Jan 5, 2021#150

P

Pixburd

Thanks to all for this thread. Years ago I came here and Robert the Honda guy advised me just to clean and lube that plastic bushing. Worked for only a short while. I noticed he has since vanished from sight. I am now tuning (3) HRR216VKA's (my 10yo, and 3yo, and the neighbor widow's) so I returned to find out how widespread this issue is. My neighbor had completely worn out her rear tires this year. I basically solved the problem by always cutting my grass is circles, and not backing up much.

Hopefully this thread comes back to life when the weather warms up. Love to hear how all the solutions endure, and make some necessary modifications.

Jan 12, 2021#151

C

civic

Pixburd said:
Thanks to all for this thread. Years ago I came here and Robert the Honda guy advised me just to clean and lube that plastic bushing. Worked for only a short while. I noticed he has since vanished from sight. I am now tuning (3) HRR216VKA's (my 10yo, and 3yo, and the neighbor widow's) so I returned to find out how widespread this issue is. My neighbor had completely worn out her rear tires this year. I basically solved the problem by always cutting my grass is circles, and not backing up much.

Hopefully this thread comes back to life when the weather warms up. Love to hear how all the solutions endure, and make some necessary modifications.

Welcome Pixburd, yes this is a very wide spread issue and thanks to Braintii that started this thread. Other members and I have added to it. I am still mowing. My last mower was 2 weeks ago and still have no issues with my mod. I was about to give up on mower, not anymore. Like most here were cleaning and re greasing the plastic bushing way too often. Will update more as season starts up in a few months.

Jan 13, 2021#152

P

Pixburd

civic said:
Welcome Pixburd, yes this is a very wide spread issue and thanks to Braintii that started this thread. Other members and I have added to it. I am still mowing. My last mower was 2 weeks ago and still have no issues with my mod. I was about to give up on mower, not anymore. Like most here were cleaning and re greasing the plastic bushing way too often. Will update more as season starts up in a few months.

Thanks civic. I should have hung out at the forum and done some "product development" with ya'll. I'm reading thru this thread a 2nd time. I had 3 mowers in pieces, but now am waiting for numerous parts to arrive.

Jan 23, 2021#153

B

Briantii

Pixburd said:
Thanks to all for this thread. Years ago I came here and Robert the Honda guy advised me just to clean and lube that plastic bushing. Worked for only a short while. I noticed he has since vanished from sight. I am now tuning (3) HRR216VKA's (my 10yo, and 3yo, and the neighbor widow's) so I returned to find out how widespread this issue is. My neighbor had completely worn out her rear tires this year. I basically solved the problem by always cutting my grass is circles, and not backing up much.

Hopefully this thread comes back to life when the weather warms up. Love to hear how all the solutions endure, and make some necessary modifications.

Glad it's been helpful for ya. I made it through my mowing season without needing to touch it. I'm still on the fence if I'll tear it down / re-grease for next year. Civic's ball bearing solution IMHO is the best if you're looking to do it.

Robert from Honda took a different job @ Honda as I recall and is no longer really involved in the support side.

Jan 26, 2021#154

P

Pixburd

Briantii said:
Glad it's been helpful for ya. I made it through my mowing season without needing to touch it. I'm still on the fence if I'll tear it down / re-grease for next year. Civic's ball bearing solution IMHO is the best if you're looking to do it.

Robert from Honda took a different job @ Honda as I recall and is no longer really involved in the support side.

I took my oldest mower all apart, cleaned it up, shortened the bushing inside the adjuster, then added a 2nd dust seal on the wheel side, using the 0.1 inch gap on both sides of the bushing to pack with grease. It was a minimalist method. Cleaned up the axle with sandpaper and coated with Fluid Film. I was surprised that there was still a little drag pulling the mower backwards, and must be coming from the transmisssion.

Meanwhile I did order bronze bushings and sealed ball bearings. Not sure about using epoxy to hold the dust seals in place if and when I drill out the adjuster's diameter for the ball bearings.

Jan 29, 2021#155

B

Briantii

Pixburd said:
I took my oldest mower all apart, cleaned it up, shortened the bushing inside the adjuster, then added a 2nd dust seal on the wheel side, using the 0.1 inch gap on both sides of the bushing to pack with grease. It was a minimalist method. Cleaned up the axle with sandpaper and coated with Fluid Film. I was surprised that there was still a little drag pulling the mower backwards, and must be coming from the transmisssion.

Meanwhile I did order bronze bushings and sealed ball bearings. Not sure about using epoxy to hold the dust seals in place if and when I drill out the adjuster's diameter for the ball bearings.

You will always have some drag pulling backwards because of the transmission like you said. Freshly cleaned / greased plastic bushings typically do just fine until they get gunked up - unfortunately with no dust seal on the wheel side they can get gunked up crazy fast. About an hour on my yard.

The dust seals tend to "pop out" if they aren't epoxied in which leads to the bushings / bearings getting gunked up in record time. You can use the transmission drive shaft as a "jig" to hold it all together while your quick set epoxy sets up since after you drill it they will not fit snug on their own. I think it's a good idea, but obviously not mandatory. If you come up with a better idea / have feedback by all means please let us all know. This thread is designed to be "the source" for people who are sick of Honda's mistake in this area.

Jan 31, 2021#156

P

Pixburd

Briantii said:
Freshly cleaned / greased plastic bushings typically do just fine until they get gunked up - unfortunately with no dust seal on the wheel side they can get gunked up crazy fast.
The dust seals tend to "pop out" if they aren't epoxied in which leads to the bushings / bearings getting gunked up in record time.

Thanks Briantii. To your 1st point, I wasn't sure if anyone had tried to add a 2nd dust seal, shorten the bushing, and packed with grease. I'll have to wait a few months to test it out.

To your 2nd point, using any bushing/bearing/sleeve with a different OD will create issues with the dust seal, UNLESS we can find one that matches our shaft ID and bushing OD. I have looked without success.

The bronze sleeve I found has a smaller diameter than the plastic bushing, which means that it will flop around inside the adjuster. It sounds like some used the dust seals and an auxiliary rod to align the bronze sleeve within the adjuster while the epoxy hardened and filled the small annular gap. Am I right?

The sealed ball bearings plan requires enlarging the Adjuster diameter. The dust seals then will no longer snug against the adjuster ID, so epoxy was used to grip the dust seals to the shaft. Am I right?

Feb 6, 2021#157

C

civic

Pixburd said:
Thanks Briantii. To your 1st point, I wasn't sure if anyone had tried to add a 2nd dust seal, shorten the bushing, and packed with grease. I'll have to wait a few months to test it out.

To your 2nd point, using any bushing/bearing/sleeve with a different OD will create issues with the dust seal, UNLESS we can find one that matches our shaft ID and bushing OD. I have looked without success.

The bronze sleeve I found has a smaller diameter than the plastic bushing, which means that it will flop around inside the adjuster. It sounds like some used the dust seals and an auxiliary rod to align the bronze sleeve within the adjuster while the epoxy hardened and filled the small annular gap. Am I right?

The sealed ball bearings plan requires enlarging the Adjuster diameter. The dust seals then will no longer snug against the adjuster ID, so epoxy was used to grip the dust seals to the shaft. Am I right?

If you use the sealed bearing method you will need to drill out the adjuster to 3/4 in and if you look hard enough you can find a 1/2 by 3/4 seals. One other thing about the sealed bearings, now when I first start mowing my rear wheels will lock up only on the first pull back. These bearing looked light duty so I added 3 bearings to each side. Now I am wondering if I should not have done that. I bought a pack of ten and I could have put 5 on each side but decided on 3. Not a big issue unless it gets worse. I am still mowing about once every 2-3 weeks. My front yard has started to green.

Feb 18, 2021#158

tonymy01

I have this issue with my Aussie HRR216K9VYUA, and I pulled the box/axle assembly out to have a look after digging through this thread, thanks for all the detailed discussions. This issue started happening maybe when the mower was ~3years old only, now it is only about 5 or 6 years old and I only use it about 4 weekends per summer/sping! The shafts weren't too scratched up, and looking at the bushes, there is a tiny bit of axle to bush play (suggesting maybe this mower is new enough to have the so-called updated bushes with the oversize hole?). I find with the assembly out, turning the shaft by hand has a bit of resistance in the transmission, which looks to also be a contributing factor. When I push the axle into the box at the same time as turning, I can feel something inside the box giving a ratchet like noise and more binding than not putting any sideways push on the axle and rotating. When using the mower, like most in this thread have mentioned, the issue gets worse when used for 15mins or so, suggesting perhaps when the oil in the box is warmed up that this could be part of the cause.

Am about to disassemble the box to see if there is anything inside that can be freed/improved, I might throw some synthetic 10W/30 into it rather than the Honda mineral 10W/30 engine oil, has anyone had any issues using synthetic oil in the box?

Trying to find a new shaft/box online to purchase here in Australia (at a reasonable price) is impossible, I can't believe it is like $60US or so, but about $300AU here (half the price of the mower!!). I see there are 2 part numbers-

Amazon.com: Honda 20001-VL0-S00 ( replaces 20001-VL0-P00) Transmission Assembly; Made by Honda: Automotive

Buy Honda 20001-VL0-S00 ( replaces 20001-VL0-P00) Transmission Assembly; Made by Honda: Automatic Transmission Assemblies - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

Honda 20001-VL0-S00 ( replaces 20001-VL0-P00)
The picture at the amazon site shows cooling fins, mine doesn't have those fins, but essentially looks the same, so I am guessing I have the 20001-VL0-P00 part number & this looks like mine-

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/CLEAAOSwVL1WAYom/s-l500.jpg

Is there any improvement in the S00 vs P00?

Feb 18, 2021#159

B

bertsmobile1

Usually we ge the European Hondas down here & not the USA ones and very little will be the same.
While the $ Aus is 77¢ USA it is viable to get parts from the US .
The links posted previously for pats are all good.
PAy with your credit card and that avoids the GST that Ammo-Zone and PayPal automatically charge.
Currently parts from most US suppliers are about 21 days in transit.
My last 2 from Jacks Small Engines were both 13 days .

Feb 18, 2021#160

tonymy01

bertsmobile1 said:
Usually we ge the European Hondas down here & not the USA ones and very little will be the same.
While the $ Aus is 77¢ USA it is viable to get parts from the US .
The links posted previously for pats are all good.
PAy with your credit card and that avoids the GST that Ammo-Zone and PayPal automatically charge.
Currently parts from most US suppliers are about 21 days in transit.
My last 2 from Jacks Small Engines were both 13 days .

I got it at Masters before they went belly up, from memory it has Assembled in US markings on it.
Looking at Fleebay, they want over $100US to ship (global shipping program anything from the US is just too expensive), so that will end up being all up about $200AU purchase... for a $60US item..
I will see how I go once I open up the box and see if it is salvageable. Then investigate the international shipping rates from some of the recommended places here.

Feb 18, 2021#161

B

bertsmobile1

Forget Fedex or any of the flea bay global delivery systems, they are a rip off and just consolodate the freight from the USA to OZ then toss it into the Aust Post system.
Most of the actual retailers ( not Amazon or Evilpay) will know how to ship efficiently.
Jacks Small Engines sent me 6 ride on deck wear plates & 2 discharge chutes and the freight for that was $ 60 US.

The USA model will have imperial fasteners and axels
The EU version uses metric fasteners and axels ,
I found this out when trying to replace wheels where I have to knock the Honda bearings out & put Toro bearings in.

Apr 9, 2021#162

P

Pixburd

civic said:
If you use the sealed bearing method you will need to drill out the adjuster to 3/4 in and if you look hard enough you can find a 1/2 by 3/4 seals. One other thing about the sealed bearings, now when I first start mowing my rear wheels will lock up only on the first pull back. These bearing looked light duty so I added 3 bearings to each side. Now I am wondering if I should not have done that. I bought a pack of ten and I could have put 5 on each side but decided on 3. Not a big issue unless it gets worse. I am still mowing about once every 2-3 weeks. My front yard has started to green.

Civic, you said, "if you look hard enough you can find a 1/2 by 3/4 seals."
I tried a couple times, and gave up. Any suggestions of where to look "harder?"

Apr 20, 2021#163

C

civic

Buna-N U-Cup Seal - 1/2" ID x 3/4" OD x 1/8" Height - Pack of 5

Buna-N U-Cup Seal - 1/2" ID x 3/4" OD x 1/8" Height - Pack of 5. Usually ships in2 days. Buy it and Save at GlobalIndustrial.com

www.globalindustrial.com

This where I saw them. The seals I used I found laying around my junk draws.Sorry for the long delay. I need to check back here more often.

Apr 21, 2021#164

B

bertsmobile1

Pixburd said:
Civic, you said, "if you look hard enough you can find a 1/2 by 3/4 seals."
I tried a couple times, and gave up. Any suggestions of where to look "harder?"

McMaster Carr is the go to for things like seals, O rings , Quad rings & the like .
Down side is you have to buy them in packs. some of which are quite large

Apr 21, 2021#165

Westman

Just checking back in... Started second season on my HRR2168VKA (2012) with the bronze-oillite bushing setup @ rear wheels with sealed/epoxied dust seals. No issues so far, third mow into this new season.

May 24, 2021#166

P

Pixburd

I've cut my yard half dozen times, and the wheels still roll backwards easily.
My initial fix was simply to leave the adjuster alone, shorten the bushing to allow space for grease on both ends, and add a second dust seal on the axle.

May 25, 2021#167

S

slomo

WOW, 17 pages now? ?

slomo

Jun 13, 2021#168

T

TheToolman

Westman said:
Just a matter of time before my rear adjusters start locking my rear wheels again since I didn't put oil/grease seals on the wheel side of the assembly(s). I cleaned up my old adjusters and purchased two 1/2"x5/8"x3/4" bronze oillite bushings for $3.75 ea. These slid perfectly into the raceway of the adjusters. No drilling out was necessary. I epoxied the bushings and oil/grease seals on both sides. I used JB Weld epoxy, the kind that sets in 5-6 hrs in case I messed up and needed to wipe off excess, etc. 5 minute set time on most epoxies leaves little room for error that's why I went with the longer setting stuff. I'll set these aside to dry and then re-install in a couple days. We will have three different methods to arrive at a fix. Civic, using ball bearings. Briantii using needle bearings and the bronze oilite bushings I'm using. With sealed bearings/bushings, I expect all three methods to produce good results (fingers crossed). My method may be shorter lived depending on how long the bushings hold up. There will be a 1/4" gap inside the raceway between the seal and the bushing on one side. I'll fill that up with CV2 grease before inserting the axle. That should give the bushing another source of lubrication besides the oil impregnated in the bushing (Oillite). I'll report back once I get these installed and throw in a scale measurement as well. Peace...

What did you use for seals?

Jun 14, 2021#169

8

8xlaxx

Been following this thread for the past month. Neighbor gave me his HRR216K8VKA mower w/ locked rear wheels. Mower is clean, engine runs, minimal rust, unused bagger and mulch plug (manu. date?). Hate to chuck it in a landfill but not entirely certain if running away from it is a better idea.

Pulled rear trans and it spins smooth and freely. Had to torch the plastic bushings...yup, seized to the shaft. Shaft was pitted, corroded and scored between it and the bushing.

Briantii said:
6) Installed grease fittings on the adjusters - Worked awesome for a while, but required constant greasing as the grease would get dirty. Basically I was greasing it almost every mow and the bushings were getting PACKED with gunk. Eventually it just pushed the seals out and failed to do much of anything. It basically got me through an entire season of decent mowing though.

Kinda like tapping the adjustor and grease fitting idea. If you cut down the Honda plastic bushing a little bit to make room in the adjustor barrel for grease, would that work? Probably need to epoxy the dust seals on both ends of the adjustor to keep them from popping out, correct?

Thank you for posting this thread for the DIYers like me. Could probably just swap everything with Honda OEM parts and flip the mower, but what's the satisfaction in selling something and it being a headache for a buyer after a season or two? Be nice to make it better, IMHO.

Jun 14, 2021#170

8

8xlaxx

Pixburd said:
I've cut my yard half dozen times, and the wheels still roll backwards easily.
My initial fix was simply to leave the adjuster alone, shorten the bushing to allow space for grease on both ends, and add a second dust seal on the axle.

Pixburd- Did you shorten up the actual OEM plastic bushing or are you using something else inside the barrel adjustor on the transmission shaft?

Just a general comment in reading through the thread. It sounds as if most members here are cutting in some really dry and dusty or too moist of conditions.

Jun 16, 2021#171

M

Mike C5

Hi All, I came across this thread while searching for an answer to this common problem. It's great that this kind of forum exists for these mowers. I decided to go the Oilite bushing route. I really wanted to avoid drilling out the mount bracket to fit the bushings because it was easier for me to turn down the bushings on my lathe (an old South Bend 9") to fit the bracket. For end seals, I bought Honda replacement seals but 2 for each bracket and it worked out fine. I also added an O-ring between the bracket and plastic dust shield as others have done and so far, so good. I used these bushings from McMaster Carr:

11/16"

1 1/8"

1,250 lbs. @ 120 rpm

Lubricated

SAE 90 Oil

-15° to 300°

2868T117

2.67

Happy mowing!

Jun 16, 2021#172

Westman

TheToolman said:
What did you use for seals?

I used the stock Honda oil/ grease seals 42944-VE2-801. I epoxied them in place (JB-Weld) so that they would stay in place. This setup has worked perfect so far, second season into mowing with no problems.

Jun 29, 2021#173

P

Pixburd

8xlaxx said:
Pixburd- Did you shorten up the actual OEM plastic bushing or are you using something else inside the barrel adjustor on the transmission shaft?

Yes, I shortened the actual OEM plastic bushing. I extracted it and cut off a little more than an 1/8 in.
Then I ordered 2 more Honda OEM dust seals (each rear wheel now has two seals.).
The shorter bushing gave me some space on both sides to add bearing grease.
This was not the first time I had cleaned up the bearing area and added grease. Past maintenance never lasted long because one side had no seal or grease.
So far so good. I thought about this fix after some research reading about several other endeavors and contacting the local Honda repair shop. His comment was that Honda by far makes the best engines, but they failed with the rest of the mower, especially around the wheels.
I still may end up putting ball or sleeve bearings inside like others have done. I'll wait and see.

Jul 13, 2021#174

8

8xlaxx

Pixburd said:
Yes, I shortened the actual OEM plastic bushing. I extracted it and cut off a little more than an 1/8 in.
Then I ordered 2 more Honda OEM dust seals (each rear wheel now has two seals.).
The shorter bushing gave me some space on both sides to add bearing grease.
This was not the first time I had cleaned up the bearing area and added grease. Past maintenance never lasted long because one side had no seal or grease.
So far so good. I thought about this fix after some research reading about several other endeavors and contacting the local Honda repair shop. His comment was that Honda by far makes the best engines, but they failed with the rest of the mower, especially around the wheels.
I still may end up putting ball or sleeve bearings inside like others have done. I'll wait and see.

Thanks for the post. Ended up shortening the plastic bushings as well and added a second set of OEM dust seals to the inner rear axle. Didn't epoxy anything as the seals had a really snug fit and haven't popped out. Also did the felt mod. A couple mows in so far, with no issues...yet. Will be blowing the mower off to clean it and avoiding wet grass if at all possible. Man, this mower is HEAVY and certainly not a lightweight!

Has anyone noticed when using the mulch plug, that the clippings exit in earnest around the left rear drive wheel? Maybe it's just me, but the clippings discharge from under the deck right in this area.

Jul 13, 2021#175

P

Pixburd

8xlaxx said:
Thanks for the post. Ended up shortening the plastic bushings as well and added a second set of OEM dust seals to the inner rear axle. Didn't epoxy anything as the seals had a really snug fit and haven't popped out. Also did the felt mod. A couple mows in so far, with no issues...yet. Will be blowing the mower off to clean it and avoiding wet grass if at all possible. Man, this mower is HEAVY and certainly not a lightweight!

Has anyone noticed when using the mulch plug, that the clippings exit in earnest around the left rear drive wheel? Maybe it's just me, but the clippings discharge from under the deck right in this area.

What is the "felt mod?"
I had no choice but to cut wet grass -- in spots -- today, and yes, the grass clumps in the left rear. It also escapes past the mulch plug.

Jul 13, 2021#176

Westman

Pixburd said:
What is the "felt mod?"
I had no choice but to cut wet grass -- in spots -- today, and yes, the grass clumps in the left rear. It also escapes past the mulch plug.

See post #122, this topic/thread.

Jul 14, 2021#177

B

Briantii

8xlaxx said:
Has anyone noticed when using the mulch plug, that the clippings exit in earnest around the left rear drive wheel? Maybe it's just me, but the clippings discharge from under the deck right in this area.

Yep, mine does the same.

Jul 14, 2021#178

B

Briantii

8xlaxx said:
Kinda like tapping the adjustor and grease fitting idea. If you cut down the Honda plastic bushing a little bit to make room in the adjustor barrel for grease, would that work? Probably need to epoxy the dust seals on both ends of the adjustor to keep them from popping out, correct?

Yeah I thought the grease would work well too... but I think the CORE of the issue is the lack of seals on the drive wheel side because instead of just having a well greased setup, I ended up with a congested packed full of grease AND dirt mess. If we seal it up well enough I suspect even the plastic bushings will be fine.

Jul 14, 2021#179

B

Briantii

Hey guys - sorry I don't check this forum as much as I should... but... good news. I'm now 1/2 way though season 2 on the "original" needle bearing mod as described in the first post with zero maintenance to the drive system. Still working great.

Jul 25, 2021#180

C

civic

Briantii said:
Hey guys - sorry I don't check this forum as much as I should... but... good news. I'm now 1/2 way though season 2 on the "original" needle bearing mod as described in the first post with zero maintenance to the drive system. Still working great.

This year I have been mowing every 3 days due to all the rain. No issues with the roller bearing set up. The felt set up helps but there are still openings where dirt can get in. I do believe double sealing is the best bet and less expensive as well as easier. I plan on cleaning and re-greasing the pinion gears sometime in Nov-Dec. and will report back. My mower is about 10 years old and all is fine. I have noticed the engine stop pad is wearing. I know this isn't the thread to talk about this but has anyone replaced it?

Jul 29, 2021#181

B

Briantii

civic said:
This year I have been mowing every 3 days due to all the rain. No issues with the roller bearing set up. The felt set up helps but there are still openings where dirt can get in. I do believe double sealing is the best bet and less expensive as well as easier. I plan on cleaning and re-greasing the pinion gears sometime in Nov-Dec. and will report back. My mower is about 10 years old and all is fine. I have noticed the engine stop pad is wearing. I know this isn't the thread to talk about this but has anyone replaced it?

I have the roto-stop clutch version but I’d look to see if you can find an adjustment for the brake.

Jul 29, 2021#182

C

civic

Briantii said:
I have the roto-stop clutch version but I’d look to see if you can find an adjustment for the brake.

I don't have this model. What model number do you have? Are you needing cable adjustment? I found this
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/69345/Honda-Hrc216.html?page=46
Check U-tube there are lots of videos on these mowers, just take them for what they are worth. I have found Western Iowa Tech Community College how to videos on U-tube very helpful, not sure they have one for what you need.

Aug 2, 2021#183

B

Briantii

civic said:
I don't have this model. What model number do you have? Are you needing cable adjustment? I found this
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/69345/Honda-Hrc216.html?page=46
Check U-tube there are lots of videos on these mowers, just take them for what they are worth. I have found Western Iowa Tech Community College how to videos on U-tube very helpful, not sure they have one for what you need.

Ive got the hrr216k8vya. It has the ability to disengage the blade and idle so it doesn’t have the engine brake pad deal - it’s built into the clutch assembly for the blade system. I was just saying you may want to look for an adjustment on the engine brake before replacing the assembly.

Aug 3, 2021#184

C

civic

Briantii said:
Ive got the hrr216k8vya. It has the ability to disengage the blade and idle so it doesn’t have the engine brake pad deal - it’s built into the clutch assembly for the blade system. I was just saying you may want to look for an adjustment on the engine brake before replacing the assembly.

The engine brake is spring loaded and the pad is almost gone. I did replace it, very easy just need a er to remove the flywheel which I rented at O'reilly's Auto Parts. I also drilled out the front wheels and put in a copper tube to keep the wheels from wobbling.

Aug 4, 2021#185

C

civic

civic said:
The engine brake is spring loaded and the pad is almost gone. I did replace it, very easy just need a er to remove the flywheel which I rented at O'reilly's Auto Parts. I also drilled out the front wheels and put in a copper tube to keep the wheels from wobbling.

Didn't proof read. I rented a puller to remove the flywheel.

Aug 6, 2021#186

R

Rich M.

Question for those that have dealt with the rear adjuster issue. I have just finished (hopefully) replacing the right side adjuster and it took way too long, most of the time was dealing with moving inside 25mm circlip out of the way.I have two different Channellock snap-ring pliers (medium 927 and small 926) and it was a struggle. My pliers worked well getting the 12mm circlips off. The replaceable pins for the Channellock tips seem to be too small for the large 25mm circlip openings. It seems the 929 (larger model) has thicker tips that may work better. Is anyone using a different brand that works in removing the circlips?

I did not stand my mower on the front nose to perform the service. Instead, I used a lift table and jacked up the rear so I could do most of the work sitting.

Again so far, the only complication is the inside circlip.

I certainly do not want to battle with circlip in the future so if anyone can share their experience, please let me know.

Well, got to stop here, I am off to replace the left adjuster.

Sep 30, 2021#187

P

PCLE

I've been known to be pretty dumb. Does the felt go on the back side of the wheel? I between the back side of the wheel and the black cover on my HRR? I have a washer/seal kit I was going to try to put on the bushing side closest to the wheel. I need to take this thing apart and fix it this weekend. I'm not doing the best fix with the needle bearings. Just gonna clean up the axel and try to seal it up so not debris gets in.

Oct 4, 2021#188

R

Rich M.

I am not using the felt, but I believe it is on the backside of the wheel cover.

Oct 4, 2021#189

C

civic

PCLE said:
I've been known to be pretty dumb. Does the felt go on the back side of the wheel? I between the back side of the wheel and the black cover on my HRR? I have a washer/seal kit I was going to try to put on the bushing side closest to the wheel. I need to take this thing apart and fix it this weekend. I'm not doing the best fix with the needle bearings. Just gonna clean up the axel and try to seal it up so not debris gets in.

Check my post #22 for the felt. There is a picture. Where the red is is where the felt goes.

Oct 9, 2021#190

C

civic

UPDATE: I took everything apart today and the the sealed bearings failed. These bearings could not take the weight of the mower. I am very disappointed and had to go back to the stock set up. I had a feeling this could happen since these bearings were very thin. The bearings came apart. The weird thing about this is I had no issues. Has anyone here gone a year on their set up and took apart to inspect?

Oct 9, 2021#191

B

bertsmobile1

Failed how ?
seals collapsed ?
Cage fallen apart ?

Oct 10, 2021#192

P

PCLE

civic said:
UPDATE: I took everything apart today and the the sealed bearings failed. These bearings could not take the weight of the mower. I am very disappointed and had to go back to the stock set up. I had a feeling this could happen since these bearings were very thin. The bearings came apart. The weird thing about this is I had no issues. Has anyone here gone a year on their set up and took apart to inspect?

No but I'm going to try your felt fix today. Now that I went bi weekly in my lawn service I got a couple weeks to tinker around with it. Weird thing about mine is I bought it from a guy who said he only used it a few times. When I took one of the wheel assembly off the shaft looked fine

Oct 10, 2021#193

R

Rich M.

PCLE said:
No but I'm going to try your felt fix today. Now that I went bi weekly in my lawn service I got a couple weeks to tinker around with it. Weird thing about mine is I bought it from a guy who said he only used it a few times. When I took one of the wheel assembly off the shaft looked fine

Did you remove the adjusters to check the bushing and the axle that was covered by the bushing? In most cases, that is where the issue is. For me, the bushing was completely dry. Changed with new adjusters and bushings, lubed the bushing and it works like new.

Oct 11, 2021#194

C

civic

bertsmobile1 said:
Failed how ?
seals collapsed ?
Cage fallen apart ?

The bearings came apart, totally disintegrated. The only thing left was the race. I know why. These bearings are for RC toys and can not stand up to the weight. I ordered needle bearings that have weight specs. Since I drilled out to 3/4 in. there are plenty to choose from. The sealed bearings are very thin so the bearings are very small and had to be made out of soft metal. The needle bearings I have now are too small but they have seals on both sides. I might try wrapping it with duct tape. The bearings I ordered don't come with seals.

Oct 11, 2021#195

B

bertsmobile1

BEarings usually are a standard hardness regardless of overall size
What does differ is the number of balls and the cage material
For some strange reason this is a rare problem amongst my customers usually overcome with a quick clean followed by liberal amounts of spray lithium chassis grease

Oct 13, 2021#196

C

civic

The bearing I am using now are BH-812 and the seal is 4913. This is with 3/4 drilled out adjuster. Everything is ready to be installed just need to find the time.

Oct 17, 2021#197

C

civic

Installed the needle bearings now my rear wheels lock up at intermittently. Anyone have this issue?

Oct 18, 2021#198

B

Briantii

So I took my needle bearing setup apart this weekend too after 2 years of zero issues. Bad news - the bearings held up fine but I discovered the drive shaft is actually very soft. The needles cold worked the metal on the shaft and mushroomed it out ever so slightly. This made disassembly difficult. Also one or two whacks with a hammer WILL also mushroom the driveshaft - I can't believe how soft this thing is. I took a dremel and removed the mushroomed out portion of the shaft, re-greased, and reassembled. My grease was truly worn out at the 2 year mark.

Seems like the best bet right now is to either replace with oillite bushings and add a dust seal or just add a dust seal to the stock setup. With that said I'm still going to be rocking the needle bearings for as long as they work.

@civic - I've not had the locking up problem. Is it possible you had damage to the shaft from the ball bearings?

Oct 19, 2021#199

Westman

2nd season update: All good so far. Actually rolls backward a bit easier now than when originally installed, or so it seems (Oillite bronze bushings, extra dust seals, silicone o-ring (felt) mod, Redline CV-2 grease). Mowing season will be coming to an end here in another 30 days, mower will come in handy sucking up the gazillion leaves that will be soon falling. Peace

Oct 20, 2021#200

B

Briantii

Westman said:
2nd season update: All good so far. Actually rolls backward a bit easier now than when originally installed, or so it seems (Oillite bronze bushings, extra dust seals, silicone o-ring (felt) mod, Redline CV-2 grease). Mowing season will be coming to an end here in another 30 days, mower will come in handy sucking up the gazillion leaves that will be soon falling. Peace

Nice! I think your setup is probably the best known at the moment. Thank you for sharing it and your results!

Oct 20, 2021#201

C

civic

I ordered the Oillite bronze bushings, should get them tomorrow. I think this maybe the best set up also. I had a feeling the needle bearings may damage the shaft. I will double seaI, felt, and O ring. The felt and O ring does keep most dirt/grass out but not perfect. I am frustrated and almost gave up and bought a new mower until I got sticker shock, but most important I love this mower and I want to fix this annoying issue. Will update.

Oct 21, 2021#202

B

Briantii

civic said:
I had a feeling the needle bearings may damage the shaft.

Heh I'll start with "You were right".

With that said at this point I don't care. I'm going to see how long I can run it without pumping money into it. If I feel especially generous I'll just buy a new trans and bushings and go oilite... but really this mower is 10 years old now and it's tempting to just get a Toro Commercial and be done with it. I do think I can keep it going for a quite a while still with minimal parts - the deck is for sure showing it's age from some pretty serious rock chewing and at some point that will be the real limiting factor.

Oct 22, 2021#203

R

Rich M.

Briantii said:
Heh I'll start with "You were right".

With that said at this point I don't care. I'm going to see how long I can run it without pumping money into it. If I feel especially generous I'll just buy a new trans and bushings and go oilite... but really this mower is 10 years old now and it's tempting to just get a Toro Commercial and be done with it. I do think I can keep it going for a quite a while still with minimal parts - the deck is for sure showing it's age from some pretty serious rock chewing and at some point that will be the real limiting factor.

Like you, don’t want to keep throwing money at this problem. My thought is to give it a good cleaning and lube each year and hope for the best.

I have gotten the steps down to about an hour to clean both sides as long as the circlips cooperate. I was using my lift table and small car jacks to lift the backend. I think the next time I will try standing the mower on its nose.

Oct 23, 2021#204

C

civic

I installed the Oillite bronze bushings. Now it is very hard to pull back. The wheels don't lock just hard to pull back. I am wondering if this will get better in time. The bronze may wear. When I installed them everything was free and movement was good. Going back to the roller bearing I found a new one and took it apart the roller bearing are very small. In the picture is a pocket screwdriver. I hate to throw this mower away the engine and deck are good it is 10+ .years old.

Oct 23, 2021#205

C

civic

Another thing with the needle bearing it was much easier to pull back. The roller bearings were the best. Too bad the rollers are for RC toys. I did use 3 on each side could have done 5 but don't think it will make a difference.

Oct 23, 2021#206

Westman

civic said:
Another thing with the needle bearing it was much easier to pull back. The roller bearings were the best. Too bad the rollers are for RC toys. I did use 3 on each side could have done 5 but don't think it will make a difference.

Last year I bought a digital luggage scale (for weighing luggage). I used it to measure the pull weight on the mower when pulling it backwards (flat concrete floor). I just measured it again, it varied, between 4 and 5.5 lbs. Here is a pic showing pullback (backward) at 4.6 lbs. Last year if I recall correctly it was higher, around 5.5 - 6.5 lbs. I also measured the rolling resistance weight going forward. It varied between 2 and 3 lbs, so there is a difference...

Oct 24, 2021#207

C

civic

Westman said:
Last year I bought a digital luggage scale (for weighing luggage). I used it to measure the pull weight on the mower when pulling it backwards (flat concrete floor). I just measured it again, it varied, between 4 and 5.5 lbs. Here is a pic showing pullback (backward) at 4.6 lbs. Last year if I recall correctly it was higher, around 5.5 - 6.5 lbs. I also measured the rolling resistance weight going forward. It varied between 2 and 3 lbs, so there is a difference...

I just measured mine it was 8-9 lbs with the brass bushings, with the roller bears I got 4-5 lbs, and needle was 5-6 lbs. I am going to mow a few times to see if this loosens ups, if not I am thinking of battery mower. I hate to ditch ICE over electric but seems like a lot less maintenance, not to say electric has its problems. Funny that the engine and deck is good on this Honda but this rear wheel issue sucks. I love the way this mower mulches and cuts, best mulching mower I have owned. I had a Toro before this Honda and it sucked at mulching on St. Augustine. I might just redo with needle bearings until the shaft gets destroyed then junk this thing. By them battery mowers will improve more and hopefully come down in price.

Oct 24, 2021#208

O

olgeezershonda

And hopefully battery mowers have longevity with good decks and drive systems too. There's more to a self propelled mower than just the type of engine.

Oct 24, 2021#209

Westman

civic said:
I just measured mine it was 8-9 lbs with the brass bushings, with the roller bears I got 4-5 lbs, and needle was 5-6 lbs. I am going to mow a few times to see if this loosens ups, if not I am thinking of battery mower. I hate to ditch ICE over electric but seems like a lot less maintenance, not to say electric has its problems. Funny that the engine and deck is good on this Honda but this rear wheel issue sucks. I love the way this mower mulches and cuts, best mulching mower I have owned. I had a Toro before this Honda and it sucked at mulching on St. Augustine. I might just redo with needle bearings until the shaft gets destroyed then junk this thing. By them battery mowers will improve more and hopefully come down in price.

I have an EGO battery/push mower I purchased in 2018. I'd still be using it if I hadn't ruptured my left achilles tendon in late 2019. I picked up the Honda on Craigslist for cheap and have been using it ever since. If I went to another mower, it would be an EGO self propelled. Great mowers, batteries last with more than enough power to get the job done. If my 20" EGO was self propelled, I would have never switched. My guess is that the bronze bushings will loosen up on your Honda and it will get better with time. Seems like that is what happened with me. I have an extra pair of bronze bushings, 2 sets of dust seals and o-rings (felt mod) when this needs a refurb. I plan on keeping it as long as I can. It is a great mower when not "acting up" (topic of this thread).

Oct 24, 2021#210

C

civic

Westman said:
I have an EGO battery/push mower I purchased in 2018. I'd still be using it if I hadn't ruptured my left achilles tendon in late 2019. I picked up the Honda on Craigslist for cheap and have been using it ever since. If I went to another mower, it would be an EGO self propelled. Great mowers, batteries last with more than enough power to get the job done. If my 20" EGO was self propelled, I would have never switched. My guess is that the bronze bushings will loosen up on your Honda and it will get better with time. Seems like that is what happened with me. I have an extra pair of bronze bushings, 2 sets of dust seals and o-rings (felt mod) when this needs a refurb. I plan on keeping it as long as I can. It is a great mower when not "acting up" (topic of this thread).

Westman,
I mowed today we are still in mowing season now every 5-6 days. It did loosen up after the mow my gauge read 5-6 lbs after mowing. It is still tight but I hope for better days. Ego's are nice and expensive. The main issue I have with battery mowers are the batteries. Ego says a 1000 charge cycles. Maybe 10 years if you get lucky. HD has the Honda for 419 and Greenworks has a 60v with 2 4amp batteries for 431 no tax free shipping. I have a 60v Greenworks blower and had an EGO blower until it flooded. I loved the EGO much better than Greenworks but I bought the Greenworks at Lowes on sale for $75 with a 2.5 amp battery. Couldn't pass up that deal.

Oct 26, 2021#211

R

Rich M.

Not to go too far off topic, but what is the life expectancy for a battery operated mower? Repair facilities?

My mowers with normal routine service will last me around 20 years and the amount of gas for cutting 1/2 acre per year is fairly cheap. Will battery operated mowers be similar as for being as cost effective based on today’s cost. Future costs- who knows.

Oct 31, 2021#212

C

civic

Rich M. said:
Not to go too far off topic, but what is the life expectancy for a battery operated mower? Repair facilities?

My mowers with normal routine service will last me around 20 years and the amount of gas for cutting 1/2 acre per year is fairly cheap. Will battery operated mowers be similar as for being as cost effective based on today’s cost. Future costs- who knows.

I wonder this too. I think it is too soon to buy one. Waiting a few years and with technology this might look better and hopefully cost will come down. I really like the way the Honda cuts. Never had a mower this great in cut quality.

Nov 6, 2021#213

C

civic

I have tried the bronze bushing and needle bearings and nothing has helped. Today I replaced the transmission with a superseded part # for my mower. When I removed the trans the old one moved smoothly in both directions. I took the top off to see how the fluid was and it was good with no broken teeth on the gears. The shafts looked good and not bent. Once I installed the new one and made all adjustments on the cable all is well again. However, it isn't as easy to pull back as the sealed roller bearings but works. The shop manual states the max pull back force on my model is 13 lbs. I measured 10-11lbs. I did use the brass oilite brass bushing and 2 seals. The bushings are a snug but not a tight fit and should loosen up a bit over time. The one thing I did notice was how this mower turns. Much easier and smoother than the old trans. I have a shop manual for the HRR216 mowers and tried to attach it here but the file is too big. PM me if you want a copy.

Nov 7, 2021#214

R

Rich M.

Thanks Civic for the update.

I am glad to hear that the old transmission was in good shape. Your information will keep my focus on the bushings.

Also, you are right about the Honda mower’s cutting ability.

As for battery operated mowers, my neighbor got one several months ago and it cuts the tall fescue fine, but has trouble with Zoysia grass.

Not to get way off topic, but with everything pointing to battery operation, how in the world will our current power grid or even an update power grid support that much needed? Go back to the old odd/even days? Things sound great on paper, but reality has a way of proving paper ideas wrong.

Now I know some will say we were very reluctant for change when cars came out to replace horses and the person who invented the wheel was probably an outcast. I just don’t think our tech ability for major battery operation is there yet, nor, as I already mentioned, the power grids and electric production is not sufficient for need.

My wife’s grandmother had a saying, “I am glad I am leaving and not Coming.” Took awhile for that to sink into my brain.

Bring back the Beatles, Nehru jackets and mullets.

Nov 7, 2021#215

C

civic

Rich you could have said it better. Keep On Keeping On

I have St. Augustine grass and it gets very thick in summer. Not sure if old trans was good are not. It looked and felt good but something was not right. Might have been a slightly bent shaft?
BTW my grandmother said the same thing

Nov 10, 2021#216

P

Pixburd

*UPDATE* After a year of mowing, my mod is still working fairly well. I can still roll the mower easily backwards without the wheels slipping on grass. I opted for the simplest solution to start, which was to disassemble and clean up the axle on both sides, shorten the plastic bushings to ~0.9 inch, add a second axle seal centering the bushing between the seals, and then add grease to both ends of the bushing. This was on the oldest mower.

Last winter I actually bought the ball bearings and Oilite bronze sleeve bearings but have not yet used them.

Nov 10, 2021#217

P

Pixburd

I tried to upload a pic from my phone but was too large. Any suggestions?

Nov 10, 2021#218

C

civic

Pixburd said:
*UPDATE* After a year of mowing, my mod is still working fairly well. I can still roll the mower easily backwards without the wheels slipping on grass. I opted for the simplest solution to start, which was to disassemble and clean up the axle on both sides, shorten the plastic bushings to ~0.9 inch, add a second axle seal centering the bushing between the seals, and then add grease to both ends of the bushing. This was on the oldest mower.

Last winter I actually bought the ball bearings and Oilite bronze sleeve bearings but have not yet used them.

I agree, keep things simple, KISS method. I tried that too before replacing the trans and had no luck.

Nov 12, 2021#219

C

civic

I found a sealed roller bearing with load ratings MR1913-ZRS. Dynamic load .9 kN or 202 lbs, Static load .51 kN or 115 lbs Our mowers are approx. 85 lbs. Not very high load rating but it might work. Does anyone have experience with this?

Nov 13, 2021#220

P

Pixburd

civic said:
I found a sealed roller bearing with load ratings MR1913-ZRS. Dynamic load .9 kN or 202 lbs, Static load .51 kN or 115 lbs Our mowers are approx. 85 lbs. Not very high load rating but it might work. Does anyone have experience with this?

That bearing is 13 mm ID (0.512 in) which is slightly oversized for the Honda axle.
Also, it's a ball bearing, not a roller bearing. Technicality.
This one might be better.
R1212-2RS Bearing

Nov 13, 2021#221

C

civic

Pixburd said:
That bearing is 13 mm ID (0.512 in) which is slightly oversized for the Honda axle.
Also, it's a ball bearing, not a roller bearing. Technicality.
This one might be better.
R1212-2RS Bearing

That number was the one I used that came apart but not that brand. There are no load specs for that bearing. I do understand that the other bearing is slightly larger ID but should be ok. Anyway, I have put too much money in this axle trying different bearings and bushings. I am sticking with the brass bushing.

Nov 14, 2021#222

R

Rich M.

Too bad Honda came out with the newer HRN because with the bushing issues involving the HRR model, perhaps we could have applied to Honda for a joint “Grant” to fund this endeavor. Only kidding.

Nov 15, 2021#223

C

civic

Rich M. said:
Too bad Honda came out with the newer HRN because with the bushing issues involving the HRR model, perhaps we could have applied to Honda for a joint “Grant” to fund this endeavor. Only kidding.

Too funny, I wonder when/if Honda is coming out with a battery mower.

Nov 18, 2021#224

R

Rich M.

My guess is they are already working on one. With California adopting the elimination in sales of small gas power engines and who knows what other states may follow, Honda will need to revise its market strategy or it could take the path of the once great giant - Sears.

Nov 18, 2021#225

C

civic

Rich M. said:
My guess is they are already working on one. With California adopting the elimination in sales of small gas power engines and who knows what other states may follow, Honda will need to revise its market strategy or it could take the path of the once great giant - Sears.

They do in Australia HRG416 and HRG466, matter of time here

Nov 22, 2021#226

O

olgeezershonda

Yup: watch

May 15, 2022#227

C

civic

How is everyone's mower doing with mods? Since I did the Oilite Bushing with 2 seals all is well and freeing up at bit. It was a bit stiff at first.

May 15, 2022#228

Westman

Going into third season, all is well. Pull back is about equal to push, maybe 55/45 but getting better as time goes on. These bronze Oillite bushings are the way to go for sure! I think they get "worn in" as time goes on.

May 17, 2022#229

C

civic

Westman said:
Going into third season, all is well. Pull back is about equal to push, maybe 55/45 but getting better as time goes on. These bronze Oillite bushings are the way to go for sure! I think they get "worn in" as time goes on.

That is good to know and I am experiencing the same. I only have a few months of mow. Was considering a new mower but when I get through mowing my yard looks so nice. Going to run this mower for as long as I can. Not sure on battery mowers, too expensive and not sure of quality of cut. Hard or can't beat a Honda mower for quality of cut.

Jun 26, 2022#230

B

Briantii

Alright guys. Well… I’m out. Freaking dust seal came off on mine and I’m 100% over messing with it. Picked up a shiny new hrx217hya this afternoon.

Jun 26, 2022#231

R

Rich M.

Briantii said:
Alright guys. Well… I’m out. Freaking dust seal came off on mine and I’m 100% over messing with it. Picked up a shiny new HRN

Not giving a HRN a try?

Jun 26, 2022#232

B

Briantii

Rich M. said:
Not giving a HRN a try?

Nah. I would have but my local Ace was sold out of all the HRN models and I really wanted the vya with the blade clutch so I can idle the engine after mowing to empty the carb while I run the blower. The vya specifically is somewhat hard to find. My Ace had the hrx with hydro trans and blade clutch on sale for $100 off. The hrx with the hydrostatic is what all the local commercial guys are using successfully so I figured it’s got to be pretty solid.

Overall just sick of sitting in the hot sun messing with a poorly designed self propelled system. I feel like I’ve bought my HRR twice given how many parts I’ve thrown at it. At least now I’ve got 5 years where I can just drop it off at my dealer and make it someone else’s problem. With that said, I think this design is A LOT better. It’s smoother and quieter too which is nice.

Big question now is what to do with the old mower. Wife says throw it away… and I’d have zero regrets doing so except the engine itself is PERFECT. Always had oil changes on time, burns zero oil each season, barely even darkens the oil, and always starts first pull.

Jun 26, 2022#233

C

civic

Hey Briantii,
Congrats on the new mower. Was wondering about you. I would jump ship too if I didn't replace the trans. The oilite bushings are doing well. Was thinking about an Ego or Ryobi twin blade. No mess the fuel, fumes, oil, etc. Going to ride this Honda out a few more years. I just think the battery mowers are cheaply made and expensive, hoping for price reduction but don't think that is going to happen especially with inflation.
I'm with you about buying this mower twice and the same with the engine, mine is great. Try selling on ebay local pick up only so you don't have to mess with shipping.

Jun 26, 2022#234

B

Briantii

civic said:
Hey Briantii,
Congrats on the new mower. Was wondering about you. I would jump ship too if I didn't replace the trans. The oilite bushings are doing well. Was thinking about an Ego or Ryobi twin blade. No mess the fuel, fumes, oil, etc. Going to ride this Honda out a few more years. I just think the battery mowers are cheaply made and expensive, hoping for price reduction but don't think that is going to happen especially with inflation.
I'm with you about buying this mower twice and the same with the engine, mine is great. Try selling on ebay local pick up only so you don't have to mess with shipping.

Thank you. The smart $$$ choice would probably be to just to have bought oil lite bearings but then I’d need another new transmission as the shaft wear is what caused the seal to come loose… and well I was just done. I knew it wasn’t right this morning when it stuck pulling backwards to go mow, but decided to run it anyway. It actually mowed fine but afterwards decided to inspect since I knew something wasn’t 100%. Saw the dust seal out of place, wife came out saw me messing with it and she said ”Just buy a new one - this is stupid”…. And she’s probably right.

I think you’ll be able to run forever with a good trans, oilite bushings, and both seals. It’s really the only problem with these mowers and they run great when they’re right.

Like you I’m not real sold on the batteries yet, but they sure do seem to be getting close. I don’t care for the construction either. The raw material for the batteries I think will keep the prices high for a while. Heck the new gas stuff has even gone up. I did find it funny at my dealer they had a Stihl electric 21 mower - model RMA something. The RMA made me laugh… they could have come up with a better name.

I hated giving Honda more money, but I don’t think I’d like the Toro personal pace, the Honda engines are exceptional, commercial models are outrageously expensive these days, and I think just about everything else is MTD. My dealer said they’ve had so many quality issues with Snapper that they no longer even stock them and only order when someone really wants one.

I did figure out that I’m going to give the old one to my mom. She needs one occasionally when the yard service doesn’t show up or whatever. For 3 mows a year it will probably never give her a problem… or at least can be fixed with a shot of wd40.

Hope yours keeps treating you well. You’re running I think the best option from what it seems.

Jul 29, 2022#235

Westman

Update: Mower still running great, no issues.

Jul 29, 2022#236

C

civic

Westman said:
Update: Mower still running great, no issues.

Westman, mine too, these Honda engines will last forever. Also, my unit is getting easier to pull back, still not great. When it cools down around here sometime in December, hopefully sooner, I will take it all apart again for inspection.

Nov 17, 2022#237

C

civic

Finally torn down the rear wheel assembly. The oilite brass bushing is great, no wear on the trans. shaft and after a year the pull back is a lot easier. The double seal works but did notice there was no or little grease on the bushing. Will keep this mower for a bit longer.

Nov 17, 2022#238

B

Briantii

civic said:
Finally torn down the rear wheel assembly. The oilite brass bushing is great, no wear on the trans. shaft and after a year the pull back is a lot easier. The double seal works but did notice there was no or little grease on the bushing. Will keep this mower for a bit longer.

Honda announced they are discontinuing lawn mowers next September. I told my mom to hang on to my old one. I’m not sure I could do the Toro personal pace and don’t know of any other decent brands out there. Almost tempted to buy a spare Honda before they go away. Loving my HRX as I get more used to it. Zero issues and the mulching is insane.

Nov 17, 2022#239

C

civic

Looks like battery mowers are here to stay. Surprised Honda is discontinuing mowers. I wonder if it is gas mowers they are discontinuing and they will be battery only. The prices of Honda mowers are almost double from a year ago.

Nov 18, 2022#240

B

Briantii

civic said:
Looks like battery mowers are here to stay. Surprised Honda is discontinuing mowers. I wonder if it is gas mowers they are discontinuing and they will be battery only. The prices of Honda mowers are almost double from a year ago.

No apparently they are just exiting the business entirely. They are repurposing the NC plant for Side by sides or something.

Nov 25, 2022#241

P

Pixburd

Briantii said:
Honda announced they are discontinuing lawn mowers next September.

Wow! I guess the recent CA ruling decided everything for them. There's so much fake engineering driving this hysteria. Just this morning I saw some videos about EV's. Truth be told the manufacture of Electric Vehicles emits far more CO2 before being manufactured than they will ever recoup during operation. Same with the batteries in lawnmowers.

Nov 25, 2022#242

B

bertsmobile1

Pixburd said:
Wow! I guess the recent CA ruling decided everything for them. There's so much fake engineering driving this hysteria. Just this morning I saw some videos about EV's. Truth be told the manufacture of Electric Vehicles emits far more CO2 before being manufactured than they will ever recoup during operation. Same with the batteries in lawnmowers.

Quite right but the solutions are not pallatable to the richest 5% of the population
1) reduce population numbers
2) reduce consumption of low life consumer products
3) repair rather than replace
4) modify our lifestyle
5) end world poverty
6) Pay a fair price for all the things we consume

May 21, 2023#243

Westman

Update: Mower still running great, no issues.

May 21, 2023#244

C

civic

Mine is doing fair. I was thinking of buying a new one. HD had a clearance on the HRX217VYA but when I looked at it they have the same set up and I'm not going down that rabbit hole again. The HRN rolls back very easy. I was also thinking about an EGO mower but I think the Honda is better from my research.
I did have an issue with the wheels looking up and what I did that I didn't have to take everything apart was I turned the mower on its side, carefully removed the grease seal, bought a grease gun needle, injected grease in the bushing then added a few drops of oil to help penetrate the grease. This worked great so far but I only have a few mows. It was fast and easy. I might buy a HRN just because Honda will quit making mowers at the end of this year. I'm torn between Honda and EGO. Looks like battery mowers are the thing, just don't think they are there yet. Maybe in a few more years. Anyway, I really like my Honda.

May 23, 2023#245

Westman

Back in 2016 I purchased a 20" EGO push mower. Good mower, does what it's supposed to do, cut grass without much issues. I still have the original 4 amp hr battery. I severed my Achilles tendon back in 2019, so I needed a mower that was self propelled. I found my current Honda mower on Craigslist for a $100, so I went through it and replaced plugs, filters, sharpened blade etc. About six months after I got it, the dreaded "pull back" issue appeared and I got involved with this thread. My achilles is since healed, but I really like the Honda and use it exclusively. If I wanted an electric, I wouldn't hesitate to go with a self propelled EGO mower. I have a weed eater, hedge trimmer, and chain saw (16") all EGO products. They have held up well over the years and only had to replace 1 battery since 2016. I like the Honda though, especially since the "pulling backwards" issue was solved because of this thread. I'll run the thing until it stops and then look for another Honda.

May 23, 2023#246

C

civic

Funny how everyone likes their Honda even with the issues. I read more reviews on the EGO and ones I read with someone coming from a Honda says the same. Honda is a better mower, cuts better, better quality, etc. I wish the HRX217VYA had a better set up on the rear. I will get a HRN when the time comes. I'm hoping someone will put these on clearance, I just need to be patient.

Jul 17, 2023#247

C

civic

BTW, Lowes and HD quit selling Honda mowers. At least in my area.

Jul 18, 2023#248

B

Briantii

civic said:
BTW, Lowes and HD quit selling Honda mowers. At least in my area.

There is a national stop sale on all Honda HRN and HRX mowers. Apparently Honda got a bad batch of cam shafts that was causing the decompression not to work after a few uses making starting them difficult to impossible. Supposedly they will be back soon. It was a supplier issuer.

Also as an update - still loving my HRX217HYA. Still rolls backwards perfectly easy after a year. Never got a year out of the HRR. The extra seal built in to the design really makes a difference.

Jul 18, 2023#249

C

civic

Briantii said:
There is a national stop sale on all Honda HRN and HRX mowers. Apparently Honda got a bad batch of cam shafts that was causing the decompression not to work after a few uses making starting them difficult to impossible. Supposedly they will be back soon. It was a supplier issuer.

Also as an update - still loving my HRX217HYA. Still rolls backwards perfectly easy after a year. Never got a year out of the HRR. The extra seal built in to the design really makes a difference.

Thanks for the update and glad your mower is working well. I doubled sealed mine and seems to help but still have issues from time to time. Just the nature of the beast.

Home

Export thread

Can't Pull Mower Backwards - HRR216VLA to bearing conversion

SCE88, 1/2 x 11/16 x 1/2 inch, Needle Bearing SCE88: Needle Roller Bearings: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Attachments

Attachments

Attachments

Attachments

Attachments

Attachments

Attachments

Attachments

Oilite - Wikipedia

Oilite - Wikipedia

Attachments

Attachments

Attachments

318 Silicone O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Red, 1" ID, 1-3/8" OD, 3/16" Width (Pack of 25): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Attachments

318 Silicone O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Red, 1" ID, 1-3/8" OD, 3/16" Width (Pack of 25): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

318 Silicone O-Ring, 70A Durometer, Red, 1" ID, 1-3/8" OD, 3/16" Width (Pack of 25): O Ring Seals: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

Amazon.com: Honda 20001-VL0-S00 ( replaces 20001-VL0-P00) Transmission Assembly; Made by Honda: Automotive

Buna-N U-Cup Seal - 1/2" ID x 3/4" OD x 1/8" Height - Pack of 5

Attachments

Attachments

Attachments

Attachments

Footer Links 1

Footer Links 2