Swapping Kohler CV730S for a B&S 44N877 - can't figure out 6-pin harness

[cmrho]

This why professional like me go to school when are young to learn things like how to read schematics. Personally I spent two year going to a technical school. Even many repair shops in my aread have techs that have no idea of what they are actually doing and just guess at it. Every year I get multiple jobs where the local shop have screwed up a customer's mower wiring. This includes the local JD dealer that cant find a bad oil pressure switch, loose connection, or even a bad spark plug.

No wonder one my customers brought a Z950M from the dealer but will not let them even touch it under warranty.

It is much cheaper to let a confident mechanic install your engine than buy a new mower since you have already gone the process of buying a new engine.

I get it. But some people like love doing this type of stuff. Yeah, we screw things up sometimes. But a lot times we don't. When we do, we learn from it, and it makes us better. I don't mind paying someone to do work. But if there's a challenge and I'm able, I'll try it first.

 

[StarTech]

But there even time us techs got to admit we are in over our heads and ask for help. In this case it one of those things that must in front of me as i is hard to teach all the basics and then directly to advance level all with a few days.

I have been doing this since '79 when I graduated from tech school. Even then it was going other tech for in person training that got to where I am now. One of hte resource someone electronics which cover basic wiring is the ARRL Hardbook.

Even now I see service manual that are done so poorly that the need info is simply not available unless other tech are willing to part with their knowledge. The problem with me is that I run a full time shop and on top that I am past 60. I probably forgot more than most entry level techs ever knew to start with.

It is really embarrassing to me to have supposedly factory trained JD mechanic to tell a customer their does not have oil pump even it is glaring obvious when an oil is present and the IPL itself shows an oil pump.

 

[cmrho]

Ok, I got the engine running by using a separate start switch to energize the starter solenoid, and cutting the harness off the old engine and wiring to the new one. It runs perfectly for 38-43 seconds. Like clockwork. Every time it hits that time range, the engine cuts out. Any idea what could be causing it?

 

[cmrho]

Ok, final post, because I have it working. The issue with the engine cutting out after 40 seconds was in the PTO engage/disengage switch. Something in the switch was killing the engine even though it was disengaged. I put that switch completely out and put in a rocker switch to engage the clutch. I know I'll catch hell for this from some of you, because it bypasses the seat switch, but it is what it is.

For the record, I solved the electrical connection issues by cutting the connector off the old engine, cutting the connector off the new engine, then matching the wires on a 1-1 match from the old connection to new one. The only difference in the new engine wiring was the presence of the oil sensor wire, which the old one didn't have. So the engine-side harness didn't have a connection to it anyway.

I mounted and wired a new starter solenoid, which was not present on the B&S engine. I then wired a hot wire from the battery to the momentary switch, which went to the starter solenoid.

To activate the PTO, I mounted a panel-mount rocker switch that activated a hot wire. This was spliced into the PTO clutch hot wire.

Thanks for the help all. While it turned out to be a workable solution, next time I'll just buy a Kohler replacement engine. Since they were twice the cost of the B&S, I paid for it by doing that. Lesson learned.

 

[StarTech]

Just shows you when someone with the lack the knowledge they can still hack up a system in order to get to run, even it is in an unsafe condition now.

The OP saved a lot money by switching over to a Briggs engine but was such a tightwad that wasn't willing to pay a little to have it professionally wired. For under under $100 in my shop he could have saved all frayed nerves, cuss words, and the likes.

Just don't be so stubborn next time.

Also note this was an easy job for someone that knew what they were doing.

 

[MParr]

Just shows you when someone with the lack the knowledge they can still hack up a system in order to get to run, even it is in an unsafe condition now.

The OP saved a lot money by switching over to a Briggs engine but was such a tightwad that wasn't willing to pay a little to have it professionally wired. For under under $100 in my shop he could have saved all frayed nerves, cuss words, and the likes.

Just don't be so stubborn next time.

Also note this was an easy job for someone that knew what they were doing.

Wouldn’t it have been easier to purchase a Briggs and Stratton ignition switch, wiring harness and solenoid to make it work correctly?

 

[cmrho]

Just shows you when someone with the lack the knowledge they can still hack up a system in order to get to run, even it is in an unsafe condition now.

The OP saved a lot money by switching over to a Briggs engine but was such a tightwad that wasn't willing to pay a little to have it professionally wired. For under under $100 in my shop he could have saved all frayed nerves, cuss words, and the likes.

Just don't be so stubborn next time.

Also note this was an easy job for someone that knew what they were doing.

I appreciated your assistance earlier in the thread. Your assumptive arrogance is certainly not appreciated now. I would've happily paid $100 to have this fixed by a 'pro'. I called 3 different shops. None of them would touch the electrical system. The mower isn't in an unsafe position. The seat switch still kills the engine. The only difference is that the PTO runs in reverse, which it didn't before. No biggie.

If I experienced the attitude you display now as a potential customer, I wouldn't have used your shop anyway. Yeah, I'm sure you've seen a lot of stupid stuff. But it doesn't mean you show it. Thanks again for the schematic and the small assistance you provided. Have a nice day.

 

[cmrho]

Wouldn’t it have been easier to purchase a Briggs and Stratton ignition switch, wiring harness and solenoid to make it work correctly?

Easier? I'm not sure. It should've worked with the current harness and switch. I wired the engine-side connector exactly the same as in the old engine. But it didn't work. After installing a separate starter solenoid wire, the PTO clutch wouldn't engage with that switch. I'm not sure a B&S harness would've addressed that. As I said, next time I'll replace the engine with the same brand engine. Presumably, that would've reduced the headache of the electrical system mismatch. Again, it's a lesson learned. Thanks for your help! And thanks for holding back the condescending attitude towards a DIYer. It takes a real pro to do that.

 

[MParr]

Easier? I'm not sure. It should've worked with the current harness and switch. I wired the engine-side connector exactly the same as in the old engine. But it didn't work. After installing a separate starter solenoid wire, the PTO clutch wouldn't engage with that switch. I'm not sure a B&S harness would've addressed that. As I said, next time I'll replace the engine with the same brand engine. Presumably, that would've reduced the headache of the electrical system mismatch. Again, it's a lesson learned. Thanks for your help! And thanks for holding back the condescending attitude towards a DIYer. It takes a real pro to do that.

The B&S #591393 wiring harness should have plugged right up. You would likely have to change your starter switch to match the wiring harness.
Like you said, it is what it is. And, a direct Kohler switch would have save a lot of time and headache. ?

 

[StarTech]

I appreciated your assistance earlier in the thread. Your assumptive arrogance is certainly not appreciated now. I would've happily paid $100 to have this fixed by a 'pro'. I called 3 different shops. None of them would touch the electrical system. The mower isn't in an unsafe position. The seat switch still kills the engine. The only difference is that the PTO runs in reverse, which it didn't before. No biggie.

If I experienced the attitude you display now as a potential customer, I wouldn't have used your shop anyway. Yeah, I'm sure you've seen a lot of stupid stuff. But it doesn't mean you show it. Thanks again for the schematic and the small assistance you provided. Have a nice day.

It wasn't assumed; you admitted that you couldn't read schematics.

As for PTO operating in reverse without making someone isn't behind (and it does happen) as being no biggie tell that to numerous toddlers that have been injured or killed because of in attention of an operator mowing in reverse.

The main reason the other shops turned down the job they don't have the knowledge either. I deal with John Deere that can't even find a bad wire connection that is staring them in the face. Or to have them tell a customer that their engine doesn't have an oil pump and to ignore the oil pressure light when right in front of them is an oil filter. I even had one warranty case with the local Stihl dealer where they couldn't even find a bad spark plug. Sometimes I think the local JD dealer's techs couldn't find their way out of a wet paper bag with both ends open.

As for my attitude I do think people that are unwilling to admit they are in over their head are fools. I have been doing this work for over 40 yrs now. I have learn to admit my limits and to ask for plus pay for help. We all know some things but none of us will never know everything as we are humans not Gods. Most people like you are just wanting us to give you our knowledge for free but we do have families too that needs feeding and have other expenses too like the shop to be available for them to come to.

Plus employees usually draws a hourly wage. Do you work for free?

As for giving local advice I don't help others to cut my throat. I am not here to lose money; although, I am a near non profit business as it is. Ever seen the cost of a well written service manual? Or the cost of a lawyer to defend you against a claim by customer that you sold parts to that had bypassed things and had an accident?

What I know is hard earned and what you know was probably hard earn too. Natural ability to do some things are a talent just like being able to play a musical instrument which I am have no ability to do, just can't do it no matter how much a try with teachers.

Wouldn’t it have been easier to purchase a Briggs and Stratton ignition switch, wiring harness and solenoid to make it work correctly?

Have you seen the Briggs prices lately? Some are going through the roof like the fuel kit that was under $30 that is now over $110.

All he needed was a starter solenoid, a few wire terminals, some jumper wire (various colors), a terminal housing or two and maybe a new fuse. These things I have on hand as I took the time to figure which one the OEMs used and found a resource that have them. The only things that were need was a pair of wire cutter, a wire stripper, and an open barrel terminal crimper; of course, normal hands are also required. Unlike other shops that sell complete harnesses I repair them most times as a savings for the customer and a profit for my shop.

As a shop it was worth it to invest $70 in the crimpers so I do professional factory style crimps. I actually brought a second one to have it modify for my needs. Those crimpers sold places like Walmart are just junk. Also needed is the extractor tools. The hardware is brought in 50-100 piece units except for the housing which I reason amount as I use most of the present ones. Most of terminals and housings are Molex Standard .084 in (MLX) and/or AMP versions. Actually the pins were only 0.10 ea the last time I brought them.

I did take the time to do a write up with part numbers and pictures of the commonly used terminals and housing for the PPETEN forum group. Those documents were posted in their download forum under the Briggs service info section but I recently removed them from the public forum when the Briggs crankshaft specs section. I still have the three documents available on my drive. I start writing up one for the weather pack terminals and connectors but that is a work in progress as get time and feel like working on it. Lots different ones so it is harder to figure out what the mower OEMs are using without actually seeing them.