Repairs Starter Solenoid

[bertsmobile1]

Tom,
Download this file.
https://www.vanguardengines.com/content/dam/briggsandstratton/na/en_us/Files/FAQs/alternator_replacement.pdf
It has everything you will ever need to know about mower wiring in it.
At the end there are some generic wiring diagrams and note the connections at the starter switch.
If you get your magnafying glass out and look real close you will see either the letters MGBSAL or numbers 1 to 6 moulded into he back of the switch.
M & G you have already worked out
Bis battery and should always be 12 V (or better )
S= starter / solenoid and goes + 12V with the key in the start position.
A= Alternator and goes 12V when turned on ( supplies power to carb valve )
L = lights ( can also be A1, A 2 etc ) and this powers the lights

 

[Tom old Murray]

Boobala,

I'll try to answer your questions, what ever happened to everything needing fix'n was easy in my youth?

Today I looked for anything remotely looking like a data plate, nothing on either the mower or the engine. There is a "Murray 20HP Twin/52 Garden Tractor" decal on the hood and since somewhere in my past I remembered mower info being "vibra penciled" under the seat, I started scrubbing and brushing. Found three notation, 657-assumed the S/N, 2000-assumed the year of manufacture and 20-52-2-assume to be 20HP 52 inch 2 cylinders.

From that info I went to the ereplacement spread sheet and located a 2000 20 HP 52 inch lawn tractor but not the "garden Tractor". Using other search efforts I found a listing for the 20 HP 52 inch Garden Tractor and it was the same model number as the ereplacement lawn tractor, that is how I came up with the model number 52101X92A. The Attachment 34780 you sent will not open and the electrical diagram is the one I tried to use with my limited knowledge.

As for the engine, the is no data and tomorrow afternoon after church I'll remove the heat shields and see if the valve covers have any data.

Thanks again for your assistance,
Tom

 

[Tom old Murray]

Bert,

Thank you for the reference, have down loaded it and took a quick look. This is the first diagram and narrative addressing the 6 pole switch on this mower. When I had the switch out and running continuity I don't believe I was getting the results shown on the diagram.

The switch I pulled out was a P/N 3XXXXX (didn't write it down) and I couldn't located that P/N on the internet, but did cross it on ereplacement even though I think it was a 5 pole, so I'll cross that bride if I need to. I guess the switch could also be bad, but this is a mower without any of the safeties and doesn't have lights so I'm not sure exactly what is needed when one runs continuity. The engine runs very well and since my son just needs something until he is in a better position to get a new one, I can justify spending a few dollars to keep it running and with the willingness of you guys I may be able to.

Thanks again for your help, these mowers are far to integrated and requires a level of knowledge I don't have, but I'm trying. I assume the newer ones are even more complicated than this older one. I'll keep you updated.
Tom

 

[bertsmobile1]

Yeah,
people keep on doing stupid things then getting a smart attorney to prove it is not their fault.
The the mower companies keep adding stuff to stop people doing things that even a 1/2 wit would realize is both stupid & dangerous.
Thus the owners handbooks now days have 20 pages of *** covering drivel that no one reads then 3 pages of instructions and every maintenance job is listed as "take to an authorised dealer"
I some times wonder if this over reaction of the courts is guilt from the Eugenics of the "Progressive Era" so the pendilum has swung from 1/2 the population is genetically stupid to no one in the entire country is stupid and every thing is always some one elses's fault.

the cranking circuit goes B - S -PTO switch -Brake switch - trigger wire on starter solenoid.
It is a daisy chain so if any one does not close nothing happens.
The magneto you have already worked out it goes from M + G to open circuit.
The other positions provide power for other things like the electric clutch &/or carby cut out.
It also connect the alternator to the battery so it can be recharged.
Some mowers have headlights so the switch also hooks the headlamps

 

[Tom old Murray]

Boobala,

The additional info you asked for, engine model #460777, code #9909135B, type #2277 E1 (there might be a decimal point between the two 7s, just not sure).

I guess between you and Bert I may come out of this issue with my son's mower knowing enough to start a part-time business, LOL.

Thanks for your interest and help.
Tom

 

[Boobala]

Checked out your engine numbers, seems you DO have the Briggs OPPOSED twin. ( which I know nothing about ) my experience is with my own Intek V twin. I already sent you the O/H manual, ( hope you downloaded it ? ) and I could not locate an Original Briggs parts manual, but, they're copied into some after-market sites ( see below )

https://www.ereplacementparts.com/b...engine-parts-c-16758_17347_245378_245446.html

https://www.partstree.com/parts/bri...0777-2277-e1-briggs-stratton-vertical-engine/

AND, you're not sure of the mowers model number, 2 more pics below, one is considered a LAWN-Tractor, (small rear wheels)
and the GARDEN-Tractor has the larger ones .

...

Also, your answers have me wondering,.... you said at one point it had been running, also the safety-switches ... you by-passed them ..???
It might be a good idea, if possible to give us the ENTIRE story behind the situation with your mower WHAT, & HOW it came to this non-start issue .

Oh Yeah Tom... Where's the pic's ????

 

[Boobala]

AHhh yes Tom, more food to digest ( LOL )
I don't know what's going on with YOUR ign. sw. but some probing in my files shows that you should have ign. sw. P/N 92377
( 6 pole sw.) does your switch AND wiring match the following ...

G = Yellow
S = Orange
L = Violet
M = Black
B = Red
X = White
there may be more than 1 wire to each terminal, also, F.Y.I. ..


I'm thinking that this mower was running then something occurred and it quit and now won't start, am I correct ..??

 

[Tom old Murray]

Boobala,

Thanks again for the “more food to digest”, don’t know how much more my “Gray Matter” can handle before going into overload (LOL). Let me see if I can answer your questions before I get into the good news –bad news.

OK, hopefully the pic will post, but if not it looks like the red one you posted with large wheels, except it is a dark green.

The mower was running great and in fact I was the last one to use it (my son is an over-the-road driver) the night before it decided to not start. That morning the battery was at 12.55 volts and there was no clicking of the solenoid. From that point I’ve detailed everything I did in my posts so I’ll not repeat them here.

As for the history, last fall was the first time our son and his wife have had a place requiring them to mow and lived to far away for us to trailer ours and take it to them, even if we had time. Not having a lot of money for a new one (as parents we weren’t going to buy one for them, after all it was his yard), we found this one for a little over $200, knowing it was ruff and the safeties had all been bypassed, but the engine appeared strong, mower deck worked great, our son has a good head and he has been very careful to minimize any chance of something happening which a safety would have prevented. That also goes for me when I’ve done his yard. It ran great all season, started every time and ran strong except for once throwing a belt.

Now on the switch, that info you sent was spot on, wiring/pole placement and color codes, except this P/N is 3497644, not P/N 92377 and even with a magnifying class couldn’t find any lettering/numbers around or near the poles. I’m assuming it is/was either an aftermarket someone installed or a really early P/N long ago superseded as I could find no info on the internet. Anyway, as per your info I retested the pole continuity and everything matched. Conclusion, the switch had nothing to do with this failure to start.

Now for the good news-bad news, got the new solenoid today and late this afternoon installed it after testing it. Hooked everything back up as it was before I jumped into this mess and tried to start it. Here is what happened, the solenoid clicked/energized as it should (the old one never clicked) but the starter didn’t turn over. Got my meter back out and these are the readings.

Battery 12.5 volts, solenoid battery post 12.5 volts, key on “start” mode, solenoid trigger post 12.5 volts, solenoid outlet post (to starter) 12.5 volts, at starter post 12.5 volts. Then metered continuity starter case to ground and back to “-“ at battery, all good readings. As an afterthought I ran continuity between the starter voltage input post (from solenoid) to ground and I registered complete continuity. I’m not the brightest bulb in the box, but is that a normal reading for a starter? I’m wondering if way-back-when when I jumped across the solenoid and later ran a jumper cable directly to the starter from battery if I somehow shorted it out.

Now there is the history and exactly where we’re at, only the names of the innocent and been changed to protect the guilty.

As always any input you think I should have is welcomed and here is the picture:



Tom

 

[BlazNT]

Engine date is 09/13/1999
You have 2 models to choose from
52100x92A - Garden Tractor (1999)
52161x89A - Garden Tractor (1999)

Figure out the one you have here.
https://www.jackssmallengines.com/j...els/lawn-garden/riders/garden-tractors/52-cut

 

[Boobala]

Tom, ..
First off, remember, YOU are my eyes & ears, it's difficult to try helping someone fix something on-line, so I need you to understand, your mower is not in front of me. I will continue to do what I can to help, I'm grateful for your patience, and the fact ,it appears you have mechanical knowledge and are not afraid to get your hands dirty. And there are many other members here with a hell of a lot more knowledge than myself,(some are dealers ! ) That being said .. lets get to work,

the new solenoid now at least clicks, OK this is what I would do, .. first check the oil, we don't want to waste effort on a seized or blown eng. next I would pull the plugs, and see if I could turn the flywheel by hand, ( hopefully you can ) here is where I'm reminded about the blown fuse, it coulld have blown from something "locked-up" or just a short in the wiring.
Next, take a known GOOD charged battery and jumper cables, attach the POS. cable to the Batt. POS. and to the eng. starter input terminal, ( yes I know it's old territory BUT I'm not there , remember ..?? ) THEN, connect the NEG. cable end to either the mower frame, or on an engine bracket, or block, whatever.. making VERY SURE the connections are CLEAN & snug, then hold the end of the NEG. on the NEG. battery term, hopefully the starter spins the engine ... and quickly, ... if not, I would remove the cables, then remove the starter, and test it off the engine, I'm sure you know how to do that, hopefully it's good, if not, I would suspect that may have caused the fuse to blow, with the starter off try to rotate the flywheel, is it turning freely or dragging, ( is the BLADE ENGAGE lever in the OFF position ..?? ) If it's dragging we have other issues, IF the engine rotates easily, and the starter checks OK, then I would reinstall the starter, and reconnect the battery (in the mower) being VERY SURE the cables are NOT worn, or frayed and have CLEAN TIGHT connections, ESPECIALLY, the GROUND cable ! RE-check the voltages at the battery itself, then at the solenoid (AGAIN) , if all checks out OK, try to start with the key, if NO-GO, then I would remove the wire harness connector from the IGN. sw. ( yeah I know it's a (PITA) ) but .... then "jump" the battery and solenoid terminals of the harness connector (should be the RED & ORANGE terminals, (use a piece of wire of decent size, or a pair of needle nose pliers) IF .. it rotates the eng. GOOD, !! I would then suspect the IGN. sw. is bad, then, I would reinstall the plugs, and move the throttle lever WIDE-OPEN, and pour a small amount of gas into the carburetor inlet, ( best to remove the air filter to do that, NOW try to crank it with the jumped IGN. sw. if no go, I would suspect possibly the mag, is grounded out. OR ??? ... hopefully it will fire-up briefly, but let's get this far, and see what happens, OK ..?? Sorry if you think I'm trying to treat you like a "dip-schitt" but as I said ..YOU are MY eyes & ears now. I'm trying to HELP YOU ! so bear with me Tom !..:thumbsup: