You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Export thread
Propane
#1
Carscw
Carscw
Junk Deere propane kits http://m.deere.com/wps/dcom/en_US/corporate/our_company/news_and_media/news_and_media.page
#2
reynoldston
reynoldston
Is there a advantage of propane over gasoline other then it burns a lot cleaner?
#3
K
KennyV
K
KennyV
Burns cleaner less fuel related problems, almost Zero carbon... But has about 10 to 20 percent Less energy, and is far less handy to refuel, along with the availability of close at hand sources of fuel... I use to do small & medium farm tractors using LP ... no one ever did large HP tractors with LP.
You will burn more fuel for the same job, but it fuel cost's less per gallon.
A small leak can be much More damaging in an enclosed building, than a small gasoline leak.
I suppose the cleaner burning is it's Largest positive, and that may be enough to consider getting New equipment rigged for it. I don't think I would convert existing although I have converted a few gasoline generators to nat gas or propane... :smile:KennyV
You will burn more fuel for the same job, but it fuel cost's less per gallon.
A small leak can be much More damaging in an enclosed building, than a small gasoline leak.
I suppose the cleaner burning is it's Largest positive, and that may be enough to consider getting New equipment rigged for it. I don't think I would convert existing although I have converted a few gasoline generators to nat gas or propane... :smile:KennyV
#4
Terry CleanFuel
Hi Kenny,
Yup, propane has 10% fewer BTUs than gasoline but has a minimum 107 octane so you get a bigger "push" from each stroke. Go here for an independent study:
http://www.utmb.edu/tstem/tstemutil...Ansis MannieRondina_Propane_Vs_Gasoline_2.pdf
Here in Boise propane holds a 60% advantage over gasoline in price. Availability is better for delivered propane than for gasoline.
I'm surprised to hear you say that propane is less safe than gasoline. In an early 80's study it was deemed 10 times safer than gasoline in that it dissipates rather than pools. As far as using propane in enclosed spaces I need only to point toward propane powered forklifts in use.
There are tons of "old-wives tales" about propane horrors. I've been doing it for over 35 years and I have yet to experience them.
We fear what we don't understand. If you don't know gas - know your gasman...
Cheers!
Terry CleanFuel
Burns cleaner less fuel related problems, almost Zero carbon... But has about 10 to 20 percent Less energy, and is far less handy to refuel, along with the availability of close at hand sources of fuel... I use to do small & medium farm tractors using LP ... no one ever did large HP tractors with LP.
You will burn more fuel for the same job, but it fuel cost's less per gallon.
A small leak can be much More damaging in an enclosed building, than a small gasoline leak.
I suppose the cleaner burning is it's Largest positive, and that may be enough to consider getting New equipment rigged for it. I don't think I would convert existing although I have converted a few gasoline generators to nat gas or propane... :smile:KennyV
Hi Kenny,
Yup, propane has 10% fewer BTUs than gasoline but has a minimum 107 octane so you get a bigger "push" from each stroke. Go here for an independent study:
http://www.utmb.edu/tstem/tstemutil...Ansis MannieRondina_Propane_Vs_Gasoline_2.pdf
Here in Boise propane holds a 60% advantage over gasoline in price. Availability is better for delivered propane than for gasoline.
I'm surprised to hear you say that propane is less safe than gasoline. In an early 80's study it was deemed 10 times safer than gasoline in that it dissipates rather than pools. As far as using propane in enclosed spaces I need only to point toward propane powered forklifts in use.
There are tons of "old-wives tales" about propane horrors. I've been doing it for over 35 years and I have yet to experience them.
We fear what we don't understand. If you don't know gas - know your gasman...
Cheers!
#5
Carscw
Carscw
You should have made your user name HANK HILL
#6
M
mullins87
M
mullins87
It's funny you should bring this up, yesterday I was thinking about a propane conversion while I was mulching the leaves. I don't know how cost effective it would be for a home owner, but around here propane is a full $1/gallon cheaper than gasoline. The thing I really like about propane is its ease of storage. We have several local sources of propane, so refueling isn't a problem either. I don't know how much the conversion kits are, but I'm sure they are priced high enough to make me wonder if they are worth it.
#7
Terry CleanFuel
Funny you say that! If you attended the Kawasaki schools where I presented, you'll recognize this:
YouTube
Terry CleanFuel
You should have made your user name HANK HILL
Funny you say that! If you attended the Kawasaki schools where I presented, you'll recognize this:
YouTube
#8
Terry CleanFuel
I don't know what your mower is but, typically for a residential push mower, around $300-400. It should be OHV though.
If you know what your annual gallons are you can go here to see if it's worth it:
Clean Fuel LPG Propane Conversions, Eco-friendly
Terry CleanFuel
It's funny you should bring this up, yesterday I was thinking about a propane conversion while I was mulching the leaves. I don't know how cost effective it would be for a home owner, but around here propane is a full $1/gallon cheaper than gasoline. The thing I really like about propane is its ease of storage. We have several local sources of propane, so refueling isn't a problem either. I don't know how much the conversion kits are, but I'm sure they are priced high enough to make me wonder if they are worth it.
I don't know what your mower is but, typically for a residential push mower, around $300-400. It should be OHV though.
If you know what your annual gallons are you can go here to see if it's worth it:
Clean Fuel LPG Propane Conversions, Eco-friendly
#9
Carscw
Need to make it public.
Carscw
Funny you say that! If you attended the Kawasaki schools where I presented, you'll recognize this: YouTube
Need to make it public.
#11
M
mullins87
The mowers are in my sig. Neat calculator. According to it, a conversion on both mowers would take about two years to break even.
M
mullins87
I don't know what your mower is but, typically for a residential push mower, around $300-400. It should be OHV though.
If you know what your annual gallons are you can go here to see if it's worth it:
Clean Fuel LPG Propane Conversions, Eco-friendly
The mowers are in my sig. Neat calculator. According to it, a conversion on both mowers would take about two years to break even.
#12
Terry CleanFuel
Thanks! I made that!
I'm curious what your five and ten years savings are?
Terry CleanFuel
The mowers are in my sig. Neat calculator. According to it, a conversion on both mowers would take about two years to break even.
Thanks! I made that!
I'm curious what your five and ten years savings are?
#13
M
mullins87
Well, I'd have to go back and refigure, but I'm thinking the 10 year savings were in the $1,500 range. Since I have two motors, it would take two conversions, or roughly $800. My savings for the first two years would pay for it.
M
mullins87
Thanks! I made that!
I'm curious what your five and ten years savings are?
Well, I'd have to go back and refigure, but I'm thinking the 10 year savings were in the $1,500 range. Since I have two motors, it would take two conversions, or roughly $800. My savings for the first two years would pay for it.
#14
Terry CleanFuel
You can actually input your local propane price too. Around here it's about $1.65 for commercial mowing.
Terry CleanFuel
Well, I'd have to go back and refigure, but I'm thinking the 10 year savings were in the $1,500 range. Since I have two motors, it would take two conversions, or roughly $800. My savings for the first two years would pay for it.
You can actually input your local propane price too. Around here it's about $1.65 for commercial mowing.
#15
M
mullins87
M
mullins87
I used local propane and gasoline pricing. Around here, gasoline has recently been creeping up towards $3.20, and the last propane I purchased was $2.19, which was about a month ago.
#16
Terry CleanFuel
Did you tell them it was for your business? Don't feel bad asking for a discount!
I've been involved with Statewide Landscaper Associations where I've used collective bargaining to obtain better pricing. It's bid yearly.
Everybody has to stay "current" though...
Terry CleanFuel
I used local propane and gasoline pricing. Around here, gasoline has recently been creeping up towards $3.20, and the last propane I purchased was $2.19, which was about a month ago.
Did you tell them it was for your business? Don't feel bad asking for a discount!
I've been involved with Statewide Landscaper Associations where I've used collective bargaining to obtain better pricing. It's bid yearly.
Everybody has to stay "current" though...
#18
Lawnboy18
Higher octane does not give an engine a better performance. It justs burns better and reduces engine ping, but that aint common in mowers.
Lawnboy18
Hi Kenny,
Yup, propane has 10% fewer BTUs than gasoline but has a minimum 107 octane so you get a bigger "push" from each stroke. Go here for an independent study:
http://www.utmb.edu/tstem/tstemutil...Ansis MannieRondina_Propane_Vs_Gasoline_2.pdf
Here in Boise propane holds a 60% advantage over gasoline in price. Availability is better for delivered propane than for gasoline.
I'm surprised to hear you say that propane is less safe than gasoline. In an early 80's study it was deemed 10 times safer than gasoline in that it dissipates rather than pools. As far as using propane in enclosed spaces I need only to point toward propane powered forklifts in use.
There are tons of "old-wives tales" about propane horrors. I've been doing it for over 35 years and I have yet to experience them.
We fear what we don't understand. If you don't know gas - know your gasman...
Cheers!
Higher octane does not give an engine a better performance. It justs burns better and reduces engine ping, but that aint common in mowers.
#19
K
KennyV
Yep ... you are Right about octane... there are a few around that think higher octane is equal to higher performance.... But Like you said, that is Not the case, you Only need Just enough octane.
And a few other things to be expanded on, (not just to argue about something that someone is trying to sell)...
the safety issue, and Pooling... Propane is Heavy, it Always will pool, and will accumulate in the lowest place, it is an invisible gas, you will never see it... Inside it just builds up on the floor, Outside it 'May' disperse or it May go into the closest basement, just depends...
It 'can' be very safe to work with, I farmed for Years using mid size tractors on propane. I do "know" the gas & my gasman... but I also know how a lot of folks handle fuels.
If someone is mowing and they need a gallon of gasoline or diesel to finish a job, not a problem, they can dash to a service station, usually within a couple blocks, and get a gallon or 2, finish up and be done... run low on propane and you will not just grab a 5 gallon jug and find a handy source...
Delivery is not a problem... I still buy propane in bulk, usually around 700 to 800 gallons at a time. Not Many users of gasoline or diesel have delivery. It is Just too easy to pick it up As you need it.
Cold starts on propane are Less than ideal, I know they are better today than they were... but Still not perfect.
Over all if I were looking at a new machine for commercial or even large acreage, I would look First at Diesel, then Gasoline but I would be hard pressed to consider propane.
I Know propane exchanges are more readily available today for a BBQ grill, But that is likely the Most expensive propane you will ever buy, that 20 lb bottle is sold by the Pound, Not the gallon. and you can easily Run out early in the cook out...
As for the "old-wives tales" about propane horrors...they sill happen.
K
KennyV
Higher octane does not give an engine a better performance. It justs burns better and reduces engine ping, but that aint common in mowers.
Yep ... you are Right about octane... there are a few around that think higher octane is equal to higher performance.... But Like you said, that is Not the case, you Only need Just enough octane.
And a few other things to be expanded on, (not just to argue about something that someone is trying to sell)...
the safety issue, and Pooling... Propane is Heavy, it Always will pool, and will accumulate in the lowest place, it is an invisible gas, you will never see it... Inside it just builds up on the floor, Outside it 'May' disperse or it May go into the closest basement, just depends...
It 'can' be very safe to work with, I farmed for Years using mid size tractors on propane. I do "know" the gas & my gasman... but I also know how a lot of folks handle fuels.
If someone is mowing and they need a gallon of gasoline or diesel to finish a job, not a problem, they can dash to a service station, usually within a couple blocks, and get a gallon or 2, finish up and be done... run low on propane and you will not just grab a 5 gallon jug and find a handy source...
Delivery is not a problem... I still buy propane in bulk, usually around 700 to 800 gallons at a time. Not Many users of gasoline or diesel have delivery. It is Just too easy to pick it up As you need it.
Cold starts on propane are Less than ideal, I know they are better today than they were... but Still not perfect.
Over all if I were looking at a new machine for commercial or even large acreage, I would look First at Diesel, then Gasoline but I would be hard pressed to consider propane.
I Know propane exchanges are more readily available today for a BBQ grill, But that is likely the Most expensive propane you will ever buy, that 20 lb bottle is sold by the Pound, Not the gallon. and you can easily Run out early in the cook out...
As for the "old-wives tales" about propane horrors...they sill happen.
#20
Terry CleanFuel
I guess I'll have to take your word for it as I am unaware of any propane related accidents for mowers. I'm not even aware of any forklift accidents either. Automobile accidents with propane motorfuel tanks are always lauded for their toughness.
Propane Tank Explosions, Accidents and BLEVE's
Statistics are here: Propane Statistics
These aren't my numbers however they do jibe with my experience.
Cub Cadet (MTD), Scag, ExMark, Ariens (Gravely), Toro, Dixie Chopper, Husqvarna, EnviroGard, Bad Boy, Ferris, Zipper, Kawasaki (Engines and training), Lehr, Manchester/Worthington (approved left-handed threads), John Deere and Kohler must be unaware too.
No, I'm not a salesman. I DO have many years in the industry though and I've had this same discussion thousands of times.
There have been TWO major accidents in recent memory. Sunrise in Toronto and Atlas Foundry in Tacoma (which used to be my account). These two massive explosions were caused by employee error and resulted in two fatalities total. We're talking 30,000 Gallon bulk-storage vessels.
All I can do is furnish the facts. It's up to the individual to make an informed decision.
Your mileage may very but statistics are statistics. I'd be very interested in anything on the contrary.
Terry CleanFuel
As for the "old-wives tales" about propane horrors...they sill happen.
I guess I'll have to take your word for it as I am unaware of any propane related accidents for mowers. I'm not even aware of any forklift accidents either. Automobile accidents with propane motorfuel tanks are always lauded for their toughness.
Propane Tank Explosions, Accidents and BLEVE's
Statistics are here: Propane Statistics
These aren't my numbers however they do jibe with my experience.
Cub Cadet (MTD), Scag, ExMark, Ariens (Gravely), Toro, Dixie Chopper, Husqvarna, EnviroGard, Bad Boy, Ferris, Zipper, Kawasaki (Engines and training), Lehr, Manchester/Worthington (approved left-handed threads), John Deere and Kohler must be unaware too.
No, I'm not a salesman. I DO have many years in the industry though and I've had this same discussion thousands of times.
There have been TWO major accidents in recent memory. Sunrise in Toronto and Atlas Foundry in Tacoma (which used to be my account). These two massive explosions were caused by employee error and resulted in two fatalities total. We're talking 30,000 Gallon bulk-storage vessels.
All I can do is furnish the facts. It's up to the individual to make an informed decision.
Your mileage may very but statistics are statistics. I'd be very interested in anything on the contrary.
#21
K
KennyV
My word for accidents while using propane for mowers???
I do not think it has been used long enough on mowers specifically to have any meaningful statistics...
Gasoline has been used for a Long time and most folks are very use to handling it... but that in itself is not saying gasoline is accident free. :smile:KennyV
K
KennyV
I guess I'll have to take your word for it as I am unaware of any propane related accidents for mowers. .
My word for accidents while using propane for mowers???
I do not think it has been used long enough on mowers specifically to have any meaningful statistics...
Gasoline has been used for a Long time and most folks are very use to handling it... but that in itself is not saying gasoline is accident free. :smile:KennyV
#22
Terry CleanFuel
And propane has been used as a motorfuel for almost as long. With an excellent track record.
As far as octane not contributing to performance, well, to say "it doesn't" is a fairytale. Ask anybody who races.
Propane isn't for everybody. There will always be some who don't understand it. Look at the Amish...
Terry CleanFuel
My word for accidents while using propane for mowers???
I do not think it has been used long enough on mowers specifically to have any meaningful statistics...
Gasoline has been used for a Long time and most folks are very use to handling it... but that in itself is not saying gasoline is accident free. :smile:KennyV
And propane has been used as a motorfuel for almost as long. With an excellent track record.
As far as octane not contributing to performance, well, to say "it doesn't" is a fairytale. Ask anybody who races.
Propane isn't for everybody. There will always be some who don't understand it. Look at the Amish...
#23
Carscw
Octane plays a big part in how a engine will Performs.
It really does not give any more hp.
One big thing for a race engine is the high octane gives you a faster throttle response getting you to max rpms faster. And will hold the rpms Gives the illusion of more hp. And with running high compression 14:1 if you run a low octane gas your going to burn a hole in a piston.
Now in you factory car or truck you are not going to notice any difference in every day driving but will get better gas mileage maybe 2 or 3 miles to the gallon.
If you was to run propane in a race car your just going to ride around in last place.
Carscw
And propane has been used as a motorfuel for almost as long. With an excellent track record. As far as octane not contributing to performance, well, to say "it doesn't" is a fairytale. Ask anybody who races. Propane isn't for everybody. There will always be some who don't understand it. Look at the Amish...
Octane plays a big part in how a engine will Performs.
It really does not give any more hp.
One big thing for a race engine is the high octane gives you a faster throttle response getting you to max rpms faster. And will hold the rpms Gives the illusion of more hp. And with running high compression 14:1 if you run a low octane gas your going to burn a hole in a piston.
Now in you factory car or truck you are not going to notice any difference in every day driving but will get better gas mileage maybe 2 or 3 miles to the gallon.
If you was to run propane in a race car your just going to ride around in last place.
#24
K
KennyV
Alright Terry, trying to keep this as related to mowers...
Like I said: I have ran AG tractors on propane, I've used it, & still do use it but Not for mowing or in any engine anymore...
octane is required in Most fuels, but it is not a condition of higher octane (107) is going to make more HP in a small engine... There are mowers that barely have enough HP running on gasoline, switch them to propane and they will have Even Less.
So as to "ask anybody who races", (I've done that)... as far as I know no one has won many races running propane...
As far as the Amish not using propane, it is Not because they don't understand it!
You are just all over the place trying to defend propane... It dose Not need this type of defense, It's been used for a Long time for quite a few things... If it successfully gets into "common use" as a fuel for lawn mowing is yet to be seen...
it 'could' be used in almost any application, But I don't think you will find it extensively used in Aircraft Or Boats either.
My original thought & experiance was that propane is Not as handy a fuel when compared to the Most common used motor fuels. :smile:KennyV
K
KennyV
And propane has been used as a motorfuel for almost as long. With an excellent track record.
As far as octane not contributing to performance, well, to say "it doesn't" is a fairytale. Ask anybody who races.
Propane isn't for everybody. There will always be some who don't understand it. Look at the Amish...
Alright Terry, trying to keep this as related to mowers...
Like I said: I have ran AG tractors on propane, I've used it, & still do use it but Not for mowing or in any engine anymore...
octane is required in Most fuels, but it is not a condition of higher octane (107) is going to make more HP in a small engine... There are mowers that barely have enough HP running on gasoline, switch them to propane and they will have Even Less.
So as to "ask anybody who races", (I've done that)... as far as I know no one has won many races running propane...
As far as the Amish not using propane, it is Not because they don't understand it!
You are just all over the place trying to defend propane... It dose Not need this type of defense, It's been used for a Long time for quite a few things... If it successfully gets into "common use" as a fuel for lawn mowing is yet to be seen...
it 'could' be used in almost any application, But I don't think you will find it extensively used in Aircraft Or Boats either.
My original thought & experiance was that propane is Not as handy a fuel when compared to the Most common used motor fuels. :smile:KennyV
#25
Terry CleanFuel
Ooops!
Meet Susan Roush McClenaghan at GIE+EXPO, October 24-26, 2012 | AmeriGas Propane Blog
Don't you HATE it when that happens? What else can we discuss that you know absolutely nothing about?
Terry CleanFuel
If you was to run propane in a race car your just going to ride around in last place.
Ooops!
Meet Susan Roush McClenaghan at GIE+EXPO, October 24-26, 2012 | AmeriGas Propane Blog
Don't you HATE it when that happens? What else can we discuss that you know absolutely nothing about?
#26
Terry CleanFuel
I'm all over the place? I just quote facts, not opinion. If you wish to debate the facts, answer with facts. It's that simple.
There certainly ARE mowers that are put into service for something they are not made for. Are these a good candidate? Hard to say.
Honestly, I really REALLY would like to see your reference as to a drop in horsepower. All I have to go on is seven years hauling a dyno around setting up Schwann's trucks - noting the before and after.
Actually there IS an aircraft application in the works. It's been used successfully in boats for years - four stroke only.
For heaven's sake, if you like using gasoline or diesel, keep using them! Just quit with the fairytales about propane. Sometimes it's best to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
Terry CleanFuel
Alright Terry, trying to keep this as related to mowers...
Like I said: I have ran AG tractors on propane, I've used it, & still do use it but Not for mowing or in any engine anymore...
octane is required in Most fuels, but it is not a condition of higher octane (107) is going to make more HP in a small engine... There are mowers that barely have enough HP running on gasoline, switch them to propane and they will have Even Less.
So as to "ask anybody who races", (I've done that)... as far as I know no one has won many races running propane...
As far as the Amish not using propane, it is Not because they don't understand it!
You are just all over the place trying to defend propane... It dose Not need this type of defense, It's been used for a Long time for quite a few things... If it successfully gets into "common use" as a fuel for lawn mowing is yet to be seen...
it 'could' be used in almost any application, But I don't think you will find it extensively used in Aircraft Or Boats either.
My original thought & experiance was that propane is Not as handy a fuel when compared to the Most common used motor fuels. :smile:KennyV
I'm all over the place? I just quote facts, not opinion. If you wish to debate the facts, answer with facts. It's that simple.
There certainly ARE mowers that are put into service for something they are not made for. Are these a good candidate? Hard to say.
Honestly, I really REALLY would like to see your reference as to a drop in horsepower. All I have to go on is seven years hauling a dyno around setting up Schwann's trucks - noting the before and after.
Actually there IS an aircraft application in the works. It's been used successfully in boats for years - four stroke only.
For heaven's sake, if you like using gasoline or diesel, keep using them! Just quit with the fairytales about propane. Sometimes it's best to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
#27
Carscw
Let's tell the whole story first off she is using a propane mix that we can not get at the local hardware store.
Second it cost her daddy around 1.5 mil for her to win that year. Her team mate who also runs the same set up as her did get second she beat him in the final pass.
We all know that in her class that at one time was stock street legal the one with the money wins. I read that the team saves about 70% using propane over race fuel but still cost more per pass because of the mods to the engine.
She one the points but never had the fast time. The car or the propane did not win the driver won by her skills as her car was never the fastest.
I called my machinist and talked to him. His opinion is my 30 thousand Dollar engine would turn into a 60 thousand dollar engine with the mods to the engine and car. I would lose pull out of the corners and blow more engine because would have to run a wet sump and not a dry sump.
Susan has to do a short build after every run where as the ones using racing gas can get 4 or 5 runs as her class can not run alcohol.
If the info I have found is wrong or not in line with what you think or know then fine
But there is no need for you to be a dick
I do not even use a propane grill
Carscw
Ooops! Meet Susan Roush McClenaghan at GIE+EXPO, October 24-26, 2012 | AmeriGas Propane Blog Don't you HATE it when that happens? What else can we discuss that you know absolutely nothing about?
Let's tell the whole story first off she is using a propane mix that we can not get at the local hardware store.
Second it cost her daddy around 1.5 mil for her to win that year. Her team mate who also runs the same set up as her did get second she beat him in the final pass.
We all know that in her class that at one time was stock street legal the one with the money wins. I read that the team saves about 70% using propane over race fuel but still cost more per pass because of the mods to the engine.
She one the points but never had the fast time. The car or the propane did not win the driver won by her skills as her car was never the fastest.
I called my machinist and talked to him. His opinion is my 30 thousand Dollar engine would turn into a 60 thousand dollar engine with the mods to the engine and car. I would lose pull out of the corners and blow more engine because would have to run a wet sump and not a dry sump.
Susan has to do a short build after every run where as the ones using racing gas can get 4 or 5 runs as her class can not run alcohol.
If the info I have found is wrong or not in line with what you think or know then fine
But there is no need for you to be a dick
I do not even use a propane grill
#28
K
KennyV
I'm beginning to think You may have some kind of Problem...
I have NO interest in debate, especially with someone that wants to gloss over the 'facts' or completely ignore them. (propane has a few positive aspects BUT it also has some Negative.) You are wanting to embellish the positive While minimizing or denying the negative.
I Do use Gasoline, Diesel & Propane... I see you like to use cutesy sayings... A few have came to my mind that would describe You...
I have only stated MY opinion based on Decades of actual experience with propane in Several mid size AG tractors, If YOU have any doubt about the ability of a propane vs. gasoline or diesel rig... Make it easy look at the BTU ratings: Diesel=138,000 per Gallon, Gasoline=124,300 per Gallon, Propane=92,300 per Gallon.
I was hopeful when I saw you join that along with your presence here you Might bring some useful input.... All I have seen so far is your 'pitch' as to how Wonderful propane is for mowing PLUS a lot of attacks on anything that is in any way negative for the fuel... YOU are the "fairytale"... KennyV
K
KennyV
I'm all over the place? I just quote facts, not opinion. If you wish to debate the facts, answer with facts. It's that simple.
There certainly ARE mowers that are put into service for something they are not made for. Are these a good candidate? Hard to say.
Honestly, I really REALLY would like to see your reference as to a drop in horsepower. All I have to go on is seven years hauling a dyno around setting up Schwann's trucks - noting the before and after.
Actually there IS an aircraft application in the works. It's been used successfully in boats for years - four stroke only.
For heaven's sake, if you like using gasoline or diesel, keep using them! Just quit with the fairytales about propane. Sometimes it's best to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
I'm beginning to think You may have some kind of Problem...
I have NO interest in debate, especially with someone that wants to gloss over the 'facts' or completely ignore them. (propane has a few positive aspects BUT it also has some Negative.) You are wanting to embellish the positive While minimizing or denying the negative.
I Do use Gasoline, Diesel & Propane... I see you like to use cutesy sayings... A few have came to my mind that would describe You...
I have only stated MY opinion based on Decades of actual experience with propane in Several mid size AG tractors, If YOU have any doubt about the ability of a propane vs. gasoline or diesel rig... Make it easy look at the BTU ratings: Diesel=138,000 per Gallon, Gasoline=124,300 per Gallon, Propane=92,300 per Gallon.
I was hopeful when I saw you join that along with your presence here you Might bring some useful input.... All I have seen so far is your 'pitch' as to how Wonderful propane is for mowing PLUS a lot of attacks on anything that is in any way negative for the fuel... YOU are the "fairytale"... KennyV
#29
briggs
AHHHHHHHHHHHH HA HA HA :thumbsup:
briggs
You should have made your user name HANK HILL
AHHHHHHHHHHHH HA HA HA :thumbsup:
#30
briggs
10-4 on that
briggs
Octane plays a big part in how a engine will Performs.
It really does not give any more hp.
One big thing for a race engine is the high octane gives you a faster throttle response getting you to max rpms faster. And will hold the rpms Gives the illusion of more hp. And with running high compression 14:1 if you run a low octane gas your going to burn a hole in a piston.
Now in you factory car or truck you are not going to notice any difference in every day driving but will get better gas mileage maybe 2 or 3 miles to the gallon.
If you was to run propane in a race car your just going to ride around in last place.
10-4 on that
#31
briggs
briggs
i got into this BS with him already u guys wont win he will post more crap why its better ,who uses it for what and so on ....I told him here in Canada it was used in the 80s and 90s on cop cars/cabs/sears Canada had over 2000 vans that ran it plus we had trucks that had it also ...They all got rid of it do to cost and availability and maintenance on a ageing fleet ....most went gas and the bigger trucks went Diesel
#32
T
tybilly
T
tybilly
I thought brigs and Stratton recommends to swap out valves when converting to propane because propane doesn't have the lubricating properties that gasoline does,and are these small engine conversion kits a spud in type or just an aircleaner modification,and as we speak CBS is talking about hydrogen powered cars,so I cant wait for the hydrogen powered pro attachment series trimmer from stihl.
#33
briggs
briggs
I used my BBQ at the shop today to cook eggs and Sausages and toast ...Worked awesome :thumbsup:
#34
Terry CleanFuel
A propane mix? It's HD5 the same as you use in a barbeque. Actually, yes, you are wrong as is your machinist. Actually most of your statement in incorrect.
I'd really like to see the references you site. Really! We've just been her sponsor for the last five years...
Terry CleanFuel
Let's tell the whole story first off she is using a propane mix that we can not get at the local hardware store.
Second it cost her daddy around 1.5 mil for her to win that year. Her team mate who also runs the same set up as her did get second she beat him in the final pass.
We all know that in her class that at one time was stock street legal the one with the money wins. I read that the team saves about 70% using propane over race fuel but still cost more per pass because of the mods to the engine.
She one the points but never had the fast time. The car or the propane did not win the driver won by her skills as her car was never the fastest.
I called my machinist and talked to him. His opinion is my 30 thousand Dollar engine would turn into a 60 thousand dollar engine with the mods to the engine and car. I would lose pull out of the corners and blow more engine because would have to run a wet sump and not a dry sump.
Susan has to do a short build after every run where as the ones using racing gas can get 4 or 5 runs as her class can not run alcohol.
If the info I have found is wrong or not in line with what you think or know then fine
But there is no need for you to be a dick
I do not even use a propane grill
A propane mix? It's HD5 the same as you use in a barbeque. Actually, yes, you are wrong as is your machinist. Actually most of your statement in incorrect.
I'd really like to see the references you site. Really! We've just been her sponsor for the last five years...
#35
Carscw
Ok your right every one else is wrong.
Again I do not use a propane grill
Carscw
A propane mix? It's HD5 the same as you use in a barbeque. Actually, yes, you are wrong as is your machinist. Actually most of your statement in incorrect. I'd really like to see the references you site. Really! We've just been her sponsor for the last five years...
Ok your right every one else is wrong.
Again I do not use a propane grill
#36
Terry CleanFuel
Heck, Briggs, this isn't a competition! I've lived with this type of misinformation for many, many years. It's normal to not trust what you don't know.
Am I always right? Oh hell no! Ask my wife! ONE thing I DO know is propane. It's all I've ever done. The propane industry thinks I'm good at it because they are always asking me to be involved with this or that. I'm a journeyman 2 Engineer in the Hydro Carbon industry as well as a graduate of Texas Tech institute on Alternative Fuels. I am part of the Rocky Mountain Propane Association Alternative Fuel Task Force. There is very little I haven't done in the propane industry.
Do I have better things to do? Probably. All I ask is that you take FACTS into consideration where propane is involved. Google is your friend here. If you don't believe me, hell! That's your prerogative! Believe the cutters who have been using it for years and benefiting from it.
Is propane the perfect fuel? Probably not. But until they find a decent way to harness hydrogen, I'm buying American...
Terry CleanFuel
i got into this BS with him already u guys wont win he will post more crap why its better ,who uses it for what and so on ....I told him here in Canada it was used in the 80s and 90s on cop cars/cabs/sears Canada had over 2000 vans that ran it plus we had trucks that had it also ...They all got rid of it do to cost and availability and maintenance on a ageing fleet ....most went gas and the bigger trucks went Diesel
Heck, Briggs, this isn't a competition! I've lived with this type of misinformation for many, many years. It's normal to not trust what you don't know.
Am I always right? Oh hell no! Ask my wife! ONE thing I DO know is propane. It's all I've ever done. The propane industry thinks I'm good at it because they are always asking me to be involved with this or that. I'm a journeyman 2 Engineer in the Hydro Carbon industry as well as a graduate of Texas Tech institute on Alternative Fuels. I am part of the Rocky Mountain Propane Association Alternative Fuel Task Force. There is very little I haven't done in the propane industry.
Do I have better things to do? Probably. All I ask is that you take FACTS into consideration where propane is involved. Google is your friend here. If you don't believe me, hell! That's your prerogative! Believe the cutters who have been using it for years and benefiting from it.
Is propane the perfect fuel? Probably not. But until they find a decent way to harness hydrogen, I'm buying American...
#37
Terry CleanFuel
Just who would be "every one else?"
Sorry, Bud! You're just wrong... Talk's cheap, Skooter. Let's see your documentation.
Edited to add: You do that Poppin' Johnny a disservice by posting this jibberish.
Terry CleanFuel
Ok your right every one else is wrong.
Again I do not use a propane grill
Just who would be "every one else?"
Sorry, Bud! You're just wrong... Talk's cheap, Skooter. Let's see your documentation.
Edited to add: You do that Poppin' Johnny a disservice by posting this jibberish.
#38
Terry CleanFuel
Actually, it was suggested to have hardened valve seats back in the late 70s. Not since the advent of unleaded fuel. Gasoline has no lubricating properties. As a solvent, it's just the opposite.
There are many different types of propane conversions. "Spud-ins" haven't been around for some time and I would avoid them. I think their use is part of the problem we are experiencing here.
Terry CleanFuel
I thought brigs and Stratton recommends to swap out valves when converting to propane because propane doesn't have the lubricating properties that gasoline does,and are these small engine conversion kits a spud in type or just an aircleaner modification,and as we speak CBS is talking about hydrogen powered cars,so I cant wait for the hydrogen powered pro attachment series trimmer from stihl.
Actually, it was suggested to have hardened valve seats back in the late 70s. Not since the advent of unleaded fuel. Gasoline has no lubricating properties. As a solvent, it's just the opposite.
There are many different types of propane conversions. "Spud-ins" haven't been around for some time and I would avoid them. I think their use is part of the problem we are experiencing here.
#39
Carscw
Carscw
OMG did you really just call me skooter? Like you said all the info is on Google but when we read the study's that go against what you are saying you go to throwing out insults. Do you know about propane? Yes. But why is it that what you say is facts but what everyone else has to say is bullshit? For most of the people on here propane mowers are just not going to save us money or timeJust who would be "every one else?" Sorry, Bud! You're just wrong... Talk's cheap, Skooter. Let's see your documentation.
#40
Terry CleanFuel
Post your source of these "facts." It's as simple as that.
Since your so keen on racing it's called "PUT UP OR SHUT UP".
Should I wait?
Edited to add: I am really interested in these "studies" that go against propane. Since you found them you should remember the URL, right? Cool! Post it here!
Terry CleanFuel
OMG did you really just call me skooter? Like you said all the info is on Google but when we read the study's that go against what you are saying you go to throwing out insults. Do you know about propane? Yes. But why is it that what you say is facts but what everyone else has to say is bullshit? For most of the people on here propane mowers are just not going to save us money or time
Post your source of these "facts." It's as simple as that.
Since your so keen on racing it's called "PUT UP OR SHUT UP".
Should I wait?
Edited to add: I am really interested in these "studies" that go against propane. Since you found them you should remember the URL, right? Cool! Post it here!
#41
Terry CleanFuel
Terry CleanFuel
Tick...tick...tick...
#42
P
possum
P
possum
If your aim is to debate your are doing well enough. If your aim is to promote use of propane you stopped making headway back on page two.
#43
Terry CleanFuel
I don't understand.
Terry CleanFuel
If your aim is to debate your are doing well enough. If your aim is to promote use of propane you stopped making headway back on page two.
I don't understand.
#44
briggs
from what i gather nether do the rest of us that oppose it Hank
briggs
I don't understand.
from what i gather nether do the rest of us that oppose it Hank
#45
K
KennyV
THAT is Exactly your problem!
Your are one of the most self centered that has came along to these forums in a long time.
No one here has any desire to "prove 'it' to you" or 'change' your opinion, Yet you are a broken record with your one dimensional blather.
I certainly hope you are Not in sales of any kind, as any company having You as a representative would have to constantly overcome the Negative taste You leave behind. Your approach here has been as if this is Your pulpit and You are going to Preach At us until we are converted. Anything that doesn't fit into your narrow view has no validity.
You have done No good for propane that I can see, Fortunately you have Not mentioned the company you work for, so you have not drug them down with you.
Your trite & dated innuendos have Not been well received here. Perhaps your form of 'dialogue' is best used where the audience Has No choice and can Not voice any opposing view.
... .... ...
Now do you Understand? :smile:KennyV
K
KennyV
I don't understand.
THAT is Exactly your problem!
Your are one of the most self centered that has came along to these forums in a long time.
No one here has any desire to "prove 'it' to you" or 'change' your opinion, Yet you are a broken record with your one dimensional blather.
I certainly hope you are Not in sales of any kind, as any company having You as a representative would have to constantly overcome the Negative taste You leave behind. Your approach here has been as if this is Your pulpit and You are going to Preach At us until we are converted. Anything that doesn't fit into your narrow view has no validity.
You have done No good for propane that I can see, Fortunately you have Not mentioned the company you work for, so you have not drug them down with you.
Your trite & dated innuendos have Not been well received here. Perhaps your form of 'dialogue' is best used where the audience Has No choice and can Not voice any opposing view.
... .... ...
Now do you Understand? :smile:KennyV
#46
briggs
very well said....:thumbsup:
briggs
THAT is Exactly your problem!
Your are one of the most self centered that has came along to these forums in a long time.
No one here has any desire to "prove 'it' to you" or 'change' your opinion, Yet you are a broken record with your one dimensional blather.
I certainly hope you are Not in sales of any kind, as any company having You as a representative would have to constantly overcome the Negative taste You leave behind. Your approach here has been as if this is Your pulpit and You are going to Preach At us until we are converted. Anything that doesn't fit into your narrow view has no validity.
You have done No good for propane that I can see, Fortunately you have Not mentioned the company you work for, so you have not drug them down with you.
Your trite & dated innuendos have Not been well received here. Perhaps your form of 'dialogue' is best used where the audience Has No choice and can Not voice any opposing view.
... .... ...
Now do you Understand? :smile:KennyV
very well said....:thumbsup:
#47
Carscw
Carscw
Amri gas I believe is who he works for.
They sponsor Susan and he kept saying we.
They sponsor Susan and he kept saying we.
#48
Carscw
Very well said as always.
You have the skill of putting into words what others are thinking.
Carscw
THAT is Exactly your problem! Your are one of the most self centered that has came along to these forums in a long time. No one here has any desire to "prove 'it' to you" or 'change' your opinion, Yet you are a broken record with your one dimensional blather. I certainly hope you are Not in sales of any kind, as any company having You as a representative would have to constantly overcome the Negative taste You leave behind. Your approach here has been as if this is Your pulpit and You are going to Preach At us until we are converted. Anything that doesn't fit into your narrow view has no validity. You have done No good for propane that I can see, Fortunately you have Not mentioned the company you work for, so you have not drug them down with you. Your trite & dated innuendos have Not been well received here. Perhaps your form of 'dialogue' is best used where the audience Has No choice and can Not voice any opposing view. ... .... ... Now do you Understand? :smile:KennyV
Very well said as always.
You have the skill of putting into words what others are thinking.
#49
briggs
Yes he dose lol i cant be that nice ...My way of saying it would get me removed from the site lol
briggs
Very well said as always.
You have the skill of putting into words what others are thinking.
Yes he dose lol i cant be that nice ...My way of saying it would get me removed from the site lol
#50
T
tybilly
im sure when I did a air cleaner mod from gas to propane @ y2k I changed the exaust valve to a Cobalite with out the Rotocoil and I thought for sure it was because of the lubricating properties,not trying to argue,ive been telling people that for yrs..
T
tybilly
Actually, it was suggested to have hardened valve seats back in the late 70s. Not since the advent of unleaded fuel. Gasoline has no lubricating properties. As a solvent, it's just the opposite.
There are many different types of propane conversions. "Spud-ins" haven't been around for some time and I would avoid them. I think their use is part of the problem we are experiencing here.
im sure when I did a air cleaner mod from gas to propane @ y2k I changed the exaust valve to a Cobalite with out the Rotocoil and I thought for sure it was because of the lubricating properties,not trying to argue,ive been telling people that for yrs..
#51
Terry CleanFuel
All I've asked thus far is for those who state untruths to list their reference. Thus far none have been able to do so. Yourself included. That makes ME self-centered? I'm sorry you can't find citation for your statements. I've spent many years disproving the fables you preach. Most learn from it. A few such as yourself don't. That's your choice and I respect that but when you quote untruths it's not fair to those individuals who might consider your statements to bear weight without actual fact.
Even then I refuse to judge those who here debate me. Some respectfully, some not. To be honest YOU have made the most sense here and I am familiar with the statements you make. Like any industry alternative fuels evolve as technology allows. What was true even two years ago is no longer the case. It's my job to know cutting-edge advancements. I don't apologize for that.
I refuse to apologize for stating fact vs. conjecture. FWIW I'm sorry some here have outdated views of a fuel that can very-much aid in their success. My company has had nothing but success along with the success of our customers. Chances are (if you are a commercial endeavor) your competitors use it to their advantage.
Thanks to those who have stepped forward asking for more info. Hopefully I've pointed you in the right direction. As always you may email me (or call). I'm happy to help. As for those opposed, well, good luck with that.
As for the group, please feel to continue to ask questions. It's the only way (most of us) learn...
Have a wonderful Holiday Season!
Terry CleanFuel
THAT is Exactly your problem!
Your are one of the most self centered that has came along to these forums in a long time.
No one here has any desire to "prove 'it' to you" or 'change' your opinion, Yet you are a broken record with your one dimensional blather.
I certainly hope you are Not in sales of any kind, as any company having You as a representative would have to constantly overcome the Negative taste You leave behind. Your approach here has been as if this is Your pulpit and You are going to Preach At us until we are converted. Anything that doesn't fit into your narrow view has no validity.
You have done No good for propane that I can see, Fortunately you have Not mentioned the company you work for, so you have not drug them down with you.
Your trite & dated innuendos have Not been well received here. Perhaps your form of 'dialogue' is best used where the audience Has No choice and can Not voice any opposing view.
... .... ...
Now do you Understand? :smile:KennyV
All I've asked thus far is for those who state untruths to list their reference. Thus far none have been able to do so. Yourself included. That makes ME self-centered? I'm sorry you can't find citation for your statements. I've spent many years disproving the fables you preach. Most learn from it. A few such as yourself don't. That's your choice and I respect that but when you quote untruths it's not fair to those individuals who might consider your statements to bear weight without actual fact.
Even then I refuse to judge those who here debate me. Some respectfully, some not. To be honest YOU have made the most sense here and I am familiar with the statements you make. Like any industry alternative fuels evolve as technology allows. What was true even two years ago is no longer the case. It's my job to know cutting-edge advancements. I don't apologize for that.
I refuse to apologize for stating fact vs. conjecture. FWIW I'm sorry some here have outdated views of a fuel that can very-much aid in their success. My company has had nothing but success along with the success of our customers. Chances are (if you are a commercial endeavor) your competitors use it to their advantage.
Thanks to those who have stepped forward asking for more info. Hopefully I've pointed you in the right direction. As always you may email me (or call). I'm happy to help. As for those opposed, well, good luck with that.
As for the group, please feel to continue to ask questions. It's the only way (most of us) learn...
Have a wonderful Holiday Season!
#52
Terry CleanFuel
Mike, posts like this don't add anything to the thread.
Debate the post, not the poster. If you find something I've posted that is incorrect feel free to add to the discussion! Really!
That's how we learn. Well, sometimes... :tongue:
Terry CleanFuel
from what i gather nether do the rest of us that oppose it Hank
Mike, posts like this don't add anything to the thread.
Debate the post, not the poster. If you find something I've posted that is incorrect feel free to add to the discussion! Really!
That's how we learn. Well, sometimes... :tongue:
#53
briggs
briggs
LIke to convert to propane, but what do you think of this ?
If LPG was so good and cheap, why don稚 we run all our vehicles on it? The truth is, converting a petrol motor to run on gas will lead to more problems than it solves and may cost more in running and repair costs than an unconverted engine.
An unmodified internal combustion engine designed to run on petrol will not perform as well on gas. The most obvious symptom of this is reduced engine power. Gas installers will claim anywhere from 5% to 10% loss but in reality it can be much more, as high as 20% and while you may not notice the difference driving around town, itç—´ on the open road and ascending hills when an LPG fuelled vehicle falls behind. To compensate for reduced engine power, you need to push the motor and this means revving it in lower gears to get up the hills. An engine which is worked harder like this will use up more fuel and wear faster, not to mention the strain on the transmission. A 6 cylinder engine will of course perform better than a 4 and suffer less wear. Don稚 even think about converting a car with an engine capacity less than 2 litres, theyæ±*e too gutless
In addition to the power loss, LPG consumption is greater than petrol. Figures vary considerably depending on whom you talk to but 30% less distance per litre compared to ULP is not an unrealistic figure. It may be cheaper than petrol but you have to fill up more often to travel the same distance.
LPG performance can be improved by fitting a high compression head but this pretty much wrecks the carç—´ ability to run on petrol and then thereç—´ the cost of the replacement head and installation cost. The Engine Management System also needs to be tuned for LPG, thus reducing the motors ability to perform efficiently on petrol.
By far, the worst thing about converting your car to LPG is the head and valve damage it causes. LPG is a dry fuel which ignites at a higher temperature than petrol. The higher temperatures will, repeat, will burn out exhaust valve seats and valves over time. Known as Valve Seat Recession, (VSR) the valve seats recede into the head and cause loss of compression for the affected cylinder. Left untreated, the engine will progressively lose power, use more fuel, idle roughly and stall and tappet damage will occur. When this happens the only solution is to replace the valve seats and valves or even the whole head. Expect in the order of $1500 to $2500 for this to be done. High ignition temperatures can also warp the head, necessitating costly replacement. When a head is replaced on an LPG vehicle, hardened valves and seats must be fitted although there is no guarantee they will last.
VSR can occur surprisingly quickly on some engines, after as little as 50000 Km and there is no way of knowing if your motor is susceptible. LPG vehicle installers will never mention VSR to customers and if pressed will dismiss it as a phenomenon that only affects older engines. Not true. Fitting an upper cylinder lubricant dispenser such as Valve saver is reputed to reduce VSR but once again there is no guarantee. The dispensers must be installed correctly with the outlet line tapped into the inlet manifold after the throttle butterfly in a central position so that the lubricant spray is distributed evenly to all cylinders. Many mechanics simply attach to a vacuum line that only feeds to the 1st couple of cylinders. Many lubricant dispensers are extremely fiddly to set up and require constant adjustment. Often they stop dispensing altogether. There is also the additional ongoing cost of the lubricant to consider.
Valve and head problems are not the only temperature related issues either. Spark plug electrodes burn out, resulting in poor performance and contributing to backfires. Expect to replace your spark plugs every 20000 30000 Km. And by the way, not just any spark plugs will do. For LPG it is recommended that ç”°old plugs be used. The spark gap has to be set shorter as well.
If you are running on LPG all the time (and why wouldnt you after all it is cheaper than petrol) you may find the injectors block up through under use. When switching to petrol, expect rough running, a rich mixture, surging and pinging. Injector cleaning is expensive and if the injectors are kaput, you need to be sitting down when given a quote for replacements.
Still keen to convert? It gets better
The realization you have made a dreadful mistake converting your car to gas occurs when you have a backfire. This is LPGç—´ dirty little secret. Modern engines use an air flow meter as part of the engine management system. It sits just after the air cleaner and essentially tells the management system how well the engine is running. It is a vital piece of equipment. The critical component of the air flow meter is a wafer thin filament about 10 mm long. If LPG in the inlet manifold ignites, we have a backfire which is really an explosion. Not good. The car stops dead, hoses get blown off, the inlet manifold can burst and that delicate little filament is no more. In extreme cases you may throw a timing belt or worse. Much worse.
Your engine management system has registered a catastrophic failure and will probably set itself to æ–—imp home mode If you are lucky enough to get the vehicle going, it will probably go no faster than 80 KPH, idle rough, run hideously rich and is useless for all but a trip to the garage. A replacement meter will cost $750 upwards. Gas is not so cheap after all if you blow several of them. Inexplicably, some vehicles will run OK with a blown meter on LPG but others wont
How can a modern engine backfire? It should not be possible on a fuel injected motor. Most LPG conversions use a single point injection system. LPG in it痴 gaseous form is simply injected into the inlet manifold, like a rudimentary carburetor. When switched to gas the petrol injectors are switched off (this is the main reason they clog, they don稚 get used enough) A number of conditions make backfires happen. Because of the high temperatures, there can be hot spots in the cylinders, namely eroded valve seats, valves and spark plugs. The gas mixture entering the cylinder ignites prematurely before the inlet valve closes and the resulting explosion travels back through the inlet manifold. Incorrect mixture is also another prime cause of backfires. Pumping the accelerator on starting will do it as will an incorrect installation. Some systems, particularly those on factory fitted new cars won稚 start the engine on gas. The motor is started on petrol then switches over. An antibackfire flap can be fitted but there effectiveness is pretty limited. Some people in desperation have cut holes in the inlet manifold and put rubber plugs in them so they blow out or stick on masking tape so it blows before the meter.
Newer so called 4th generation LPG conversions use sequential multipoint injection instead of the single point arrangement. The claim is that all the problems of older systems are eliminated, particularly backfires. The backfire claim may be true but the VSR and performance issues are likely to remain. Fact is, many of the older systems will still be sold to unsuspecting customers and apparently only vehicles manufactured after 2004 are eligible for sequential multipoint kits. The Governments LPG grants scheme also applies for second hand conversions, so the older systems will still be installed for a while yet. Manufacturers and installers have sold single point injection kits for years claiming them to be trouble free so thereç—´ no reason to expect any different from them with the newer systems.
And thereç—´ more?.
LPG conversions are awfully touchy and can go out of tune very easily. The weather is a good example. Your car may run great during the cold dry winter months but come summer it starts playing up. At least every 20000 Km take it in for a gas service and that means more cost.
Power steering and brakes can place a lot of strain on car engines. Itç—´ common for LPG converted vehicles to stall when pulling to a stop and turning. On some vehicles this happens frequently on windy days (seriously). The Oil companies have a different petrol blend for winter and summer. Autogas is the same the year round. The NSW Government spent lots of money converting police vehicles to LPG only to have many of them stall all the time, often during chases.
Not all vehicles are suitable for conversion. If you have a 4 cylinder sedan or hatchback, forget it. There is nowhere to put the tank. Even six cylinder fords and holdens lose cargo space to a gas cylinder. Vans, utes and 4WD usually have room where the spare wheel fits under the rear of the vehicle but you need to find somewhere to put the spare. The gas tank often hangs down and bangs on some driveways. The exhaust may also need to be rerouted which may cost extra. Some gas tanks are now designed to fit the spare wheel well but you still need to stow the wheel.
LPG conversions must be done by an accredited installer, however this is no guarantee the installation will be performed competently. All vehicles are different and require a separate kit for each make and model. It takes years of experience to learn the nuances of LPG conversions and there is no one size fits all installation. Fitting a gas kit to an older motor is going to cost you plenty in the long term unless you retrofit a gas compatible head, with hardened valves and seats
Even without factoring the cost of likely repairs and maintenance. You have to drive an awful lot of K痴 to recover the installation cost. Figures vary but I致e heard 30000 Klm per year. If you drive less than 20000 Kilometres every year it痴 probably not worth it. The irony of the grant is that commercial vehicles that do a lot of travel will be ineligible
SECOND PART COMING WAS TO LONG TO POST
If LPG was so good and cheap, why don稚 we run all our vehicles on it? The truth is, converting a petrol motor to run on gas will lead to more problems than it solves and may cost more in running and repair costs than an unconverted engine.
An unmodified internal combustion engine designed to run on petrol will not perform as well on gas. The most obvious symptom of this is reduced engine power. Gas installers will claim anywhere from 5% to 10% loss but in reality it can be much more, as high as 20% and while you may not notice the difference driving around town, itç—´ on the open road and ascending hills when an LPG fuelled vehicle falls behind. To compensate for reduced engine power, you need to push the motor and this means revving it in lower gears to get up the hills. An engine which is worked harder like this will use up more fuel and wear faster, not to mention the strain on the transmission. A 6 cylinder engine will of course perform better than a 4 and suffer less wear. Don稚 even think about converting a car with an engine capacity less than 2 litres, theyæ±*e too gutless
In addition to the power loss, LPG consumption is greater than petrol. Figures vary considerably depending on whom you talk to but 30% less distance per litre compared to ULP is not an unrealistic figure. It may be cheaper than petrol but you have to fill up more often to travel the same distance.
LPG performance can be improved by fitting a high compression head but this pretty much wrecks the carç—´ ability to run on petrol and then thereç—´ the cost of the replacement head and installation cost. The Engine Management System also needs to be tuned for LPG, thus reducing the motors ability to perform efficiently on petrol.
By far, the worst thing about converting your car to LPG is the head and valve damage it causes. LPG is a dry fuel which ignites at a higher temperature than petrol. The higher temperatures will, repeat, will burn out exhaust valve seats and valves over time. Known as Valve Seat Recession, (VSR) the valve seats recede into the head and cause loss of compression for the affected cylinder. Left untreated, the engine will progressively lose power, use more fuel, idle roughly and stall and tappet damage will occur. When this happens the only solution is to replace the valve seats and valves or even the whole head. Expect in the order of $1500 to $2500 for this to be done. High ignition temperatures can also warp the head, necessitating costly replacement. When a head is replaced on an LPG vehicle, hardened valves and seats must be fitted although there is no guarantee they will last.
VSR can occur surprisingly quickly on some engines, after as little as 50000 Km and there is no way of knowing if your motor is susceptible. LPG vehicle installers will never mention VSR to customers and if pressed will dismiss it as a phenomenon that only affects older engines. Not true. Fitting an upper cylinder lubricant dispenser such as Valve saver is reputed to reduce VSR but once again there is no guarantee. The dispensers must be installed correctly with the outlet line tapped into the inlet manifold after the throttle butterfly in a central position so that the lubricant spray is distributed evenly to all cylinders. Many mechanics simply attach to a vacuum line that only feeds to the 1st couple of cylinders. Many lubricant dispensers are extremely fiddly to set up and require constant adjustment. Often they stop dispensing altogether. There is also the additional ongoing cost of the lubricant to consider.
Valve and head problems are not the only temperature related issues either. Spark plug electrodes burn out, resulting in poor performance and contributing to backfires. Expect to replace your spark plugs every 20000 30000 Km. And by the way, not just any spark plugs will do. For LPG it is recommended that ç”°old plugs be used. The spark gap has to be set shorter as well.
If you are running on LPG all the time (and why wouldnt you after all it is cheaper than petrol) you may find the injectors block up through under use. When switching to petrol, expect rough running, a rich mixture, surging and pinging. Injector cleaning is expensive and if the injectors are kaput, you need to be sitting down when given a quote for replacements.
Still keen to convert? It gets better
The realization you have made a dreadful mistake converting your car to gas occurs when you have a backfire. This is LPGç—´ dirty little secret. Modern engines use an air flow meter as part of the engine management system. It sits just after the air cleaner and essentially tells the management system how well the engine is running. It is a vital piece of equipment. The critical component of the air flow meter is a wafer thin filament about 10 mm long. If LPG in the inlet manifold ignites, we have a backfire which is really an explosion. Not good. The car stops dead, hoses get blown off, the inlet manifold can burst and that delicate little filament is no more. In extreme cases you may throw a timing belt or worse. Much worse.
Your engine management system has registered a catastrophic failure and will probably set itself to æ–—imp home mode If you are lucky enough to get the vehicle going, it will probably go no faster than 80 KPH, idle rough, run hideously rich and is useless for all but a trip to the garage. A replacement meter will cost $750 upwards. Gas is not so cheap after all if you blow several of them. Inexplicably, some vehicles will run OK with a blown meter on LPG but others wont
How can a modern engine backfire? It should not be possible on a fuel injected motor. Most LPG conversions use a single point injection system. LPG in it痴 gaseous form is simply injected into the inlet manifold, like a rudimentary carburetor. When switched to gas the petrol injectors are switched off (this is the main reason they clog, they don稚 get used enough) A number of conditions make backfires happen. Because of the high temperatures, there can be hot spots in the cylinders, namely eroded valve seats, valves and spark plugs. The gas mixture entering the cylinder ignites prematurely before the inlet valve closes and the resulting explosion travels back through the inlet manifold. Incorrect mixture is also another prime cause of backfires. Pumping the accelerator on starting will do it as will an incorrect installation. Some systems, particularly those on factory fitted new cars won稚 start the engine on gas. The motor is started on petrol then switches over. An antibackfire flap can be fitted but there effectiveness is pretty limited. Some people in desperation have cut holes in the inlet manifold and put rubber plugs in them so they blow out or stick on masking tape so it blows before the meter.
Newer so called 4th generation LPG conversions use sequential multipoint injection instead of the single point arrangement. The claim is that all the problems of older systems are eliminated, particularly backfires. The backfire claim may be true but the VSR and performance issues are likely to remain. Fact is, many of the older systems will still be sold to unsuspecting customers and apparently only vehicles manufactured after 2004 are eligible for sequential multipoint kits. The Governments LPG grants scheme also applies for second hand conversions, so the older systems will still be installed for a while yet. Manufacturers and installers have sold single point injection kits for years claiming them to be trouble free so thereç—´ no reason to expect any different from them with the newer systems.
And thereç—´ more?.
LPG conversions are awfully touchy and can go out of tune very easily. The weather is a good example. Your car may run great during the cold dry winter months but come summer it starts playing up. At least every 20000 Km take it in for a gas service and that means more cost.
Power steering and brakes can place a lot of strain on car engines. Itç—´ common for LPG converted vehicles to stall when pulling to a stop and turning. On some vehicles this happens frequently on windy days (seriously). The Oil companies have a different petrol blend for winter and summer. Autogas is the same the year round. The NSW Government spent lots of money converting police vehicles to LPG only to have many of them stall all the time, often during chases.
Not all vehicles are suitable for conversion. If you have a 4 cylinder sedan or hatchback, forget it. There is nowhere to put the tank. Even six cylinder fords and holdens lose cargo space to a gas cylinder. Vans, utes and 4WD usually have room where the spare wheel fits under the rear of the vehicle but you need to find somewhere to put the spare. The gas tank often hangs down and bangs on some driveways. The exhaust may also need to be rerouted which may cost extra. Some gas tanks are now designed to fit the spare wheel well but you still need to stow the wheel.
LPG conversions must be done by an accredited installer, however this is no guarantee the installation will be performed competently. All vehicles are different and require a separate kit for each make and model. It takes years of experience to learn the nuances of LPG conversions and there is no one size fits all installation. Fitting a gas kit to an older motor is going to cost you plenty in the long term unless you retrofit a gas compatible head, with hardened valves and seats
Even without factoring the cost of likely repairs and maintenance. You have to drive an awful lot of K痴 to recover the installation cost. Figures vary but I致e heard 30000 Klm per year. If you drive less than 20000 Kilometres every year it痴 probably not worth it. The irony of the grant is that commercial vehicles that do a lot of travel will be ineligible
SECOND PART COMING WAS TO LONG TO POST
#54
briggs
briggs
Eventually Autogas will not be that cheap anyway. The Government giveth and then it taketh with 12.5 cents excise by 2012. LPG is derived from Natural gas so there is no reason for it to be as expensive as it is considering it all comes from Australian wells. Conversions of course went up in price as soon as the rebate was announced.
OK I am just about finished. As you can see I am not a fan of LPG. I have 2, 2004 model Mazda E2000 vans which were converted just after they were bought. The kits and installation cost $2500 for each van at the time. So far, I estimate running on LPG has cost me $8000 on top of the installation. This for 6 blown air flow meters and a replacement head, not to mention spark plugs, valve saver lubricant and extra service costs.
The mechanic who fitted the systems is a licensed accredited vehicle LPG installer who completely stuffed up the installations. After the first backfire he couldnt identify that the air flow meter had blown and couldnt stop it happening again. He incorrectly fitted the valve saver dispensers and the vans were always stalling. Eventually I found another LPG mechanic who fixed things. The original installer is still in business and despite gaining a reputation for incompetent LPG fittings is doing a roaring trade, especially after the Governments rebate announcement.
If you still insist on converting to LPG. Do your homework. Do not trust the word of an LPG fitter. Find out if your vehicle is suitable. Dont bother fitting to a 4 cylinder motor of less than 2 litre capacity. Can you fit a sequential multiport system? Speak to different mechanics. You may be in for a shock after talking to some real experts.
here is more
5. The Tax Credit for Propane is a Joke
17 Dollars
In theory, the government will cover 50% of the cost of converting your car or truck to propane. In practice, however, they値l cover $500, which isn稚 enough (see disadvantages 1-3, again). If it was enough, you壇 see a bunch of propane conversions. It痴 not. Ergo, you don稚.
Here痴 the actual DOE wording on the AFV Conversion Tax Credit for your perusal
Alternative Fuel Vehicle (AFV) Conversion Tax Credit
Businesses or individuals are eligible for an income tax credit of up to 50% of the equipment and labor costs for converting vehicles to operate using alternative fuels. Qualified alternative fuels are compressed and liquefied natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas (propane), hydrogen, electricity, and fuels containing at least 85% ethanol, methanol, ether, or another alcohol. The maximum credit is $500 for the conversion of vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 10,000 pounds (lbs) or less, and $1,000 for vehicles with a GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs. The credit is only available during the year that the business or entity converts the vehicle. An alternative fuel seller may not receive a credit for converting its own vehicles to operate on the alternative fuel they sell. (Reference Montana Code Annotated 15-30-2320)
and let me tell you, that is a shining example of a law about cars written by and for people know less about cars than I do about how to turn blogging into a six-figure income
One disadvantage with propane is if you use these vehicles in extremely cold weather (think -30 C or below) you have to avoid parking garages. The sudden temperature change of going from -30 to +5 can cause the propane to gain pressure so rapidly it activates the propane tank痴 safety valve, which is not only wasteful but also (duh) dangerous.
It痴 a law in Ontario that you can稚 park them indoors as well. Propane is heavier than air so it can linger along the ground should a leak occur.
Twenty years ago they tried to convert the Oshawa police cars over. The Cops didn稚 like the lack of power. Initial cost was high. The Taxi people used to buy up the old cruisers. The Cabbies would not go go near the propane vehicles. I don稚 know why. I do know that the Region scrapped the whole idea.
i knew a guy in the mid-80s who had a Dodge van that had been converted to propane.
That thing was a bear to start the minute temperatures started to drop.
if u get crappy fuel it would fill the sys full of crap and u would have to do this clean all the safety valves , pressure regulators , heat exchangers and arburators were often filled with rust silt until they simply stop working .
The fix was always simple : take everything apart and blow/wipe out the accumulated red dust / chips , replace the seals & O-Rings then re assemble ~ then came the fun part :
The air flow wand in the carby is *very* sensitive and although it had a 5″ long adjustment travel , more than 180ｰ a turn of the screw off the sweet spot meant the engine refused to start no matter what .
So , you have to find the spec. of how many turns from one end & adjust it *carefully* , start it up and warm it up then connect to the smog machine and dial it in ever so carefully ,
The contractors used to convert them by the hundreds for fleet use in the Canadian oil patch. They would disappear for 36 months, then return without the propane conversion, which I assumed was re-installed on the new vehicles. The fact that the dealers weren稚 screaming about warranty costs told me someone in the field was maintaining them. I also assumed that a knowledgeable field mechanic could keep them working ..Were did they go
This is just some of the stuff i found i can find tons more
OK I am just about finished. As you can see I am not a fan of LPG. I have 2, 2004 model Mazda E2000 vans which were converted just after they were bought. The kits and installation cost $2500 for each van at the time. So far, I estimate running on LPG has cost me $8000 on top of the installation. This for 6 blown air flow meters and a replacement head, not to mention spark plugs, valve saver lubricant and extra service costs.
The mechanic who fitted the systems is a licensed accredited vehicle LPG installer who completely stuffed up the installations. After the first backfire he couldnt identify that the air flow meter had blown and couldnt stop it happening again. He incorrectly fitted the valve saver dispensers and the vans were always stalling. Eventually I found another LPG mechanic who fixed things. The original installer is still in business and despite gaining a reputation for incompetent LPG fittings is doing a roaring trade, especially after the Governments rebate announcement.
If you still insist on converting to LPG. Do your homework. Do not trust the word of an LPG fitter. Find out if your vehicle is suitable. Dont bother fitting to a 4 cylinder motor of less than 2 litre capacity. Can you fit a sequential multiport system? Speak to different mechanics. You may be in for a shock after talking to some real experts.
here is more
5. The Tax Credit for Propane is a Joke
17 Dollars
In theory, the government will cover 50% of the cost of converting your car or truck to propane. In practice, however, they値l cover $500, which isn稚 enough (see disadvantages 1-3, again). If it was enough, you壇 see a bunch of propane conversions. It痴 not. Ergo, you don稚.
Here痴 the actual DOE wording on the AFV Conversion Tax Credit for your perusal
Alternative Fuel Vehicle (AFV) Conversion Tax Credit
Businesses or individuals are eligible for an income tax credit of up to 50% of the equipment and labor costs for converting vehicles to operate using alternative fuels. Qualified alternative fuels are compressed and liquefied natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas (propane), hydrogen, electricity, and fuels containing at least 85% ethanol, methanol, ether, or another alcohol. The maximum credit is $500 for the conversion of vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 10,000 pounds (lbs) or less, and $1,000 for vehicles with a GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs. The credit is only available during the year that the business or entity converts the vehicle. An alternative fuel seller may not receive a credit for converting its own vehicles to operate on the alternative fuel they sell. (Reference Montana Code Annotated 15-30-2320)
and let me tell you, that is a shining example of a law about cars written by and for people know less about cars than I do about how to turn blogging into a six-figure income
One disadvantage with propane is if you use these vehicles in extremely cold weather (think -30 C or below) you have to avoid parking garages. The sudden temperature change of going from -30 to +5 can cause the propane to gain pressure so rapidly it activates the propane tank痴 safety valve, which is not only wasteful but also (duh) dangerous.
It痴 a law in Ontario that you can稚 park them indoors as well. Propane is heavier than air so it can linger along the ground should a leak occur.
Twenty years ago they tried to convert the Oshawa police cars over. The Cops didn稚 like the lack of power. Initial cost was high. The Taxi people used to buy up the old cruisers. The Cabbies would not go go near the propane vehicles. I don稚 know why. I do know that the Region scrapped the whole idea.
i knew a guy in the mid-80s who had a Dodge van that had been converted to propane.
That thing was a bear to start the minute temperatures started to drop.
if u get crappy fuel it would fill the sys full of crap and u would have to do this clean all the safety valves , pressure regulators , heat exchangers and arburators were often filled with rust silt until they simply stop working .
The fix was always simple : take everything apart and blow/wipe out the accumulated red dust / chips , replace the seals & O-Rings then re assemble ~ then came the fun part :
The air flow wand in the carby is *very* sensitive and although it had a 5″ long adjustment travel , more than 180ｰ a turn of the screw off the sweet spot meant the engine refused to start no matter what .
So , you have to find the spec. of how many turns from one end & adjust it *carefully* , start it up and warm it up then connect to the smog machine and dial it in ever so carefully ,
The contractors used to convert them by the hundreds for fleet use in the Canadian oil patch. They would disappear for 36 months, then return without the propane conversion, which I assumed was re-installed on the new vehicles. The fact that the dealers weren稚 screaming about warranty costs told me someone in the field was maintaining them. I also assumed that a knowledgeable field mechanic could keep them working ..Were did they go
This is just some of the stuff i found i can find tons more
#55
Carscw
Carscw
This is not facts. Can you post a link to where you found this?
Only I know the real facts.
Thought I would save him time and post this for him.
Only I know the real facts.
Thought I would save him time and post this for him.
#56
briggs
i can do that lol just thought i would weed out the BS ..But yes i will post all the links when i get back home from the shop tonight
briggs
This is not facts. Can you post a link to where you found this?
Only I know the real facts.
Thought I would save him time and post this for him.
i can do that lol just thought i would weed out the BS ..But yes i will post all the links when i get back home from the shop tonight
#57
Terry CleanFuel
Terry CleanFuel
I'm not going anywhere...
Reference to cylinder head damage tells me this info's at least 15 years old though.
BTW, when you "cut and paste" paste into Word first then copy and paste from there. Just trying to help...
Reference to cylinder head damage tells me this info's at least 15 years old though.
BTW, when you "cut and paste" paste into Word first then copy and paste from there. Just trying to help...
#58
Terry CleanFuel
Terry CleanFuel
Missouri PERC... Did I mention my company converts MOWERS? I had to check the name of this forum again.
I'll leave it to Roush and the Major Manufacturers to convert vehicles. I have, however, driven a propane-powered vehicle for the last ten years without problem. Perhaps having them done here would make a difference? I don't know. It's not my area of expertise...
I'll leave it to Roush and the Major Manufacturers to convert vehicles. I have, however, driven a propane-powered vehicle for the last ten years without problem. Perhaps having them done here would make a difference? I don't know. It's not my area of expertise...
Attachments
#59
briggs
it was from 2008 and up smarty paints And yes u are correct i did copy and paste( using my phone sorry ) boy u are smart lol did u go to school for that to ....But as i said I will post links when i get home i found about 30 plus saying its crap
briggs
I'm not going anywhere...
Reference to cylinder head damage tells me this info's at least 15 years old though.
BTW, when you "cut and paste" paste into Word first then copy and paste from there. Just trying to help...
it was from 2008 and up smarty paints And yes u are correct i did copy and paste( using my phone sorry ) boy u are smart lol did u go to school for that to ....But as i said I will post links when i get home i found about 30 plus saying its crap
#60
Carscw
Carscw
Can you please post all the study's and data to back up what you are saying.
This is like talking Politics or the bible you can twist things so they mean what you want them to
This is like talking Politics or the bible you can twist things so they mean what you want them to
#61
Terry CleanFuel
Not many computers at the University of Washington when I attended.
Mike, really, you're making it personal with the name calling. Don't let it get to you! I'm not too old to learn something if it's presented correctly.
The plain truth is I am ABSOLUTELY interested in ANY study related to propane shortcomings! Many times it's the backyard mechanic who ran garden hose from his grill bottle with a needle-valve throttle swearing that propane is useless. Many studies cite "Propane has 17% fewer BTUs per gallon than gasoline." This is true, but why use "gallon" as the reference? Why not use "pound" or "dollar" or cubic foot which will give propane the advantage of up to 30%? It's all in how you present the "facts".
The information I post is NOT mine. I can post as to personal experience but the facts I cite are mostly from customers and Governing agencies. I assume there are those "riding herd" over these folks to present correct findings. Wouldn't you think? I ask for "facts" because I can debate facts. Without facts debate turns to argument.
I don't mean to sound arrogant. I'm sorry if I come off that way. I'm used to being the expert - that's what I do. Nothing so far in this debate is "new" to me. I've heard it many times before. I suppose a lot of it is our industry's fault with the technology we had in the late 70s and early 80s. Those conversions had problems but we learned from them. Technology has come a long way since then.
Today's closed-loop EFI propane systems get very close to or exceed the performance of gasoline. Clean Fuel USA is making medium duty trucks with higher compression engines that no gasoline engine can touch. It boils down to the physics of the fuel. Ethanol not withstanding. Ethanol is just wrong on so many levels.
I have learned many things about mowing perusing this forum. Personally I wouldn't even THINK of questioning the experts here. Believe it or don't I've even learned a thing or two about generators from this "Briggs" guy. I can put that knowledge to use since I distribute Champion Equipment.
I'm not too thick to realize that the Good Lord gave me one mouth but two ears...
Terry CleanFuel
it was from 2008 and up smarty paints And yes u are correct i did copy and paste boy u are smart lol did u go to school for that to ....But as i said I will post links when i get home i found about 30 plus saying its crap
Not many computers at the University of Washington when I attended.
Mike, really, you're making it personal with the name calling. Don't let it get to you! I'm not too old to learn something if it's presented correctly.
The plain truth is I am ABSOLUTELY interested in ANY study related to propane shortcomings! Many times it's the backyard mechanic who ran garden hose from his grill bottle with a needle-valve throttle swearing that propane is useless. Many studies cite "Propane has 17% fewer BTUs per gallon than gasoline." This is true, but why use "gallon" as the reference? Why not use "pound" or "dollar" or cubic foot which will give propane the advantage of up to 30%? It's all in how you present the "facts".
The information I post is NOT mine. I can post as to personal experience but the facts I cite are mostly from customers and Governing agencies. I assume there are those "riding herd" over these folks to present correct findings. Wouldn't you think? I ask for "facts" because I can debate facts. Without facts debate turns to argument.
I don't mean to sound arrogant. I'm sorry if I come off that way. I'm used to being the expert - that's what I do. Nothing so far in this debate is "new" to me. I've heard it many times before. I suppose a lot of it is our industry's fault with the technology we had in the late 70s and early 80s. Those conversions had problems but we learned from them. Technology has come a long way since then.
Today's closed-loop EFI propane systems get very close to or exceed the performance of gasoline. Clean Fuel USA is making medium duty trucks with higher compression engines that no gasoline engine can touch. It boils down to the physics of the fuel. Ethanol not withstanding. Ethanol is just wrong on so many levels.
I have learned many things about mowing perusing this forum. Personally I wouldn't even THINK of questioning the experts here. Believe it or don't I've even learned a thing or two about generators from this "Briggs" guy. I can put that knowledge to use since I distribute Champion Equipment.
I'm not too thick to realize that the Good Lord gave me one mouth but two ears...
#62
L
LoCo86
Everything has it's pros and cons and so far I have read mostly the benefits of using propane. So if you could make a list or name the negatives to propane. Just for my own personal curiosity.
L
LoCo86
Not many computers at the University of Washington when I attended. Mike, really, you're making it personal with the name calling. Don't let it get to you! I'm not too old to learn something if it's presented correctly. The plain truth is I am ABSOLUTELY interested in ANY study related to propane shortcomings! Many times it's the backyard mechanic who ran garden hose from his grill bottle with a needle-valve throttle swearing that propane is useless. Many studies cite "Propane has 17% fewer BTUs per gallon than gasoline." This is true, but why use "gallon" as the reference? Why not use "pound" or "dollar" or cubic foot which will give propane the advantage of up to 30%? It's all in how you present the "facts". The information I post is NOT mine. I can post as to personal experience but the facts I cite are mostly from customers and Governing agencies. I assume there are those "riding herd" over these folks to present correct findings. Wouldn't you think? I ask for "facts" because I can debate facts. Without facts debate turns to argument. I don't mean to sound arrogant. I'm sorry if I come off that way. I'm used to being the expert - that's what I do. Nothing so far in this debate is "new" to me. I've heard it many times before. I suppose a lot of it is our industry's fault with the technology we had in the late 70s and early 80s. Those conversions had problems but we learned from them. Technology has come a long way since then. Today's closed-loop EFI propane systems get very close to or exceed the performance of gasoline. Clean Fuel USA is making medium duty trucks with higher compression engines that no gasoline engine can touch. It boils down to the physics of the fuel. Ethanol not withstanding. Ethanol is just wrong on so many levels. I have learned many things about mowing perusing this forum. Personally I wouldn't even THINK of questioning the experts here. Believe it or don't I've even learned a thing or two about generators from this "Briggs" guy. I can put that knowledge to use since I distribute Champion Equipment. I'm not too thick to realize that the Good Lord gave me one mouth but two ears...
Everything has it's pros and cons and so far I have read mostly the benefits of using propane. So if you could make a list or name the negatives to propane. Just for my own personal curiosity.
#63
briggs
I called u a smarty pants that's name calling lol i could have said much worse then that u wanted facts i gave u facts but still have to call it bs when its put in front of u..U clam u are smart and all that and push the propane dose it have its pros yes dose it have its cons yes it has been pointed out ..Every which way from Sunday.on both sides ..U are pushing something they stared back in the 60s on cars ..They scrapped it for a reason in the and 90s ..Like i said before if it was so good why did they get rid of it ..They had the technology hell they put people on the moon and they could not make a good propane set up BS..It cost to much and people were not saving jack that's a fact..U can post what ever u want i worked on the junk i even owned the junk in the long run i didn't save anything other then a boat anchor that i could not get parts for ..And the tank was so dirty u could not get one for it ..Parts were not being sold anymore...So i sold for scrap and got 500 for the truck in weight that was more then i saved driving it :smile:
i don't take this personal at all ..Like i said i worked on it i also owned it ....Hell i even put a propane fogger kit on my Diesel truck (just like nitors ) gave me a little more power and made the smoke roll out the stacks but i did that for fun and blew the motor up ..Only dully around here that had it was 6.5 i even put an aftermarket turbo on it ..It blew up because it got to hot wonder why
briggs
Not many computers at the University of Washington when I attended.
Mike, really, you're making it personal with the name calling. Don't let it get to you! I'm not too old to learn something if it's presented correctly.
The plain truth is I am ABSOLUTELY interested in ANY study related to propane shortcomings! Many times it's the backyard mechanic who ran garden hose from his grill bottle with a needle-valve throttle swearing that propane is useless. Many studies cite "Propane has 17% fewer BTUs per gallon than gasoline." This is true, but why use "gallon" as the reference? Why not use "pound" or "dollar" or cubic foot which will give propane the advantage of up to 30%? It's all in how you present the "facts".
The information I post is NOT mine. I can post as to personal experience but the facts I cite are mostly from customers and Governing agencies. I assume there are those "riding herd" over these folks to present correct findings. Wouldn't you think? I ask for "facts" because I can debate facts. Without facts debate turns to argument.
I don't mean to sound arrogant. I'm sorry if I come off that way. I'm used to being the expert - that's what I do. Nothing so far in this debate is "new" to me. I've heard it many times before. I suppose a lot of it is our industry's fault with the technology we had in the late 70s and early 80s. Those conversions had problems but we learned from them. Technology has come a long way since then.
Today's closed-loop EFI propane systems get very close to or exceed the performance of gasoline. Clean Fuel USA is making medium duty trucks with higher compression engines that no gasoline engine can touch. It boils down to the physics of the fuel. Ethanol not withstanding. Ethanol is just wrong on so many levels.
I have learned many things about mowing perusing this forum. Personally I wouldn't even THINK of questioning the experts here. Believe it or don't I've even learned a thing or two about generators from this "Briggs" guy. I can put that knowledge to use since I distribute Champion Equipment.
I'm not too thick to realize that the Good Lord gave me one mouth but two ears...
I called u a smarty pants that's name calling lol i could have said much worse then that u wanted facts i gave u facts but still have to call it bs when its put in front of u..U clam u are smart and all that and push the propane dose it have its pros yes dose it have its cons yes it has been pointed out ..Every which way from Sunday.on both sides ..U are pushing something they stared back in the 60s on cars ..They scrapped it for a reason in the and 90s ..Like i said before if it was so good why did they get rid of it ..They had the technology hell they put people on the moon and they could not make a good propane set up BS..It cost to much and people were not saving jack that's a fact..U can post what ever u want i worked on the junk i even owned the junk in the long run i didn't save anything other then a boat anchor that i could not get parts for ..And the tank was so dirty u could not get one for it ..Parts were not being sold anymore...So i sold for scrap and got 500 for the truck in weight that was more then i saved driving it :smile:
i don't take this personal at all ..Like i said i worked on it i also owned it ....Hell i even put a propane fogger kit on my Diesel truck (just like nitors ) gave me a little more power and made the smoke roll out the stacks but i did that for fun and blew the motor up ..Only dully around here that had it was 6.5 i even put an aftermarket turbo on it ..It blew up because it got to hot wonder why
#64
briggs
briggs
Crapwagon Outtake: Propane And Propane Accessories | The Truth About Cars
Alternative Fuels • View topic - LIke to convert to propane, but what do you think of this ?
Gas 2 | What is the future of fuel? What's new? What's next? Since 2007, Gas 2 has covered a rapidly changing world coming to terms with its oil addiction.
The True Cost of Auto LPG – The Pros and Cons | The LPG Blog
The Pros and Cons of LPG Conversion
What Are the Pros and Cons of a Propane Lawn Mower?
Alternative Fuels • View topic - LIke to convert to propane, but what do you think of this ?
Gas 2 | What is the future of fuel? What's new? What's next? Since 2007, Gas 2 has covered a rapidly changing world coming to terms with its oil addiction.
The True Cost of Auto LPG – The Pros and Cons | The LPG Blog
The Pros and Cons of LPG Conversion
What Are the Pros and Cons of a Propane Lawn Mower?
#65
M
mac
You know guys, I can't understand why you even humor this CLOWN with a debate. I personnally choose to ignore him and go on with my life without complicating it.
M
mac
Not many computers at the University of Washington when I attended.
Mike, really, you're making it personal with the name calling. Don't let it get to you! I'm not too old to learn something if it's presented correctly.
The plain truth is I am ABSOLUTELY interested in ANY study related to propane shortcomings! Many times it's the backyard mechanic who ran garden hose from his grill bottle with a needle-valve throttle swearing that propane is useless. Many studies cite "Propane has 17% fewer BTUs per gallon than gasoline." This is true, but why use "gallon" as the reference? Why not use "pound" or "dollar" or cubic foot which will give propane the advantage of up to 30%? It's all in how you present the "facts".
The information I post is NOT mine. I can post as to personal experience but the facts I cite are mostly from customers and Governing agencies. I assume there are those "riding herd" over these folks to present correct findings. Wouldn't you think? I ask for "facts" because I can debate facts. Without facts debate turns to argument.
I don't mean to sound arrogant. I'm sorry if I come off that way. I'm used to being the expert - that's what I do. Nothing so far in this debate is "new" to me. I've heard it many times before. I suppose a lot of it is our industry's fault with the technology we had in the late 70s and early 80s. Those conversions had problems but we learned from them. Technology has come a long way since then.
Today's closed-loop EFI propane systems get very close to or exceed the performance of gasoline. Clean Fuel USA is making medium duty trucks with higher compression engines that no gasoline engine can touch. It boils down to the physics of the fuel. Ethanol not withstanding. Ethanol is just wrong on so many levels.
I have learned many things about mowing perusing this forum. Personally I wouldn't even THINK of questioning the experts here. Believe it or don't I've even learned a thing or two about generators from this "Briggs" guy. I can put that knowledge to use since I distribute Champion Equipment.
I'm not too thick to realize that the Good Lord gave me one mouth but two ears...
You know guys, I can't understand why you even humor this CLOWN with a debate. I personnally choose to ignore him and go on with my life without complicating it.
#66
Terry CleanFuel
Just stating facts Mac. Everybody is free to do the research they want. But RESEARCH! Don't just take for granted what you read here.
What was true ten years ago is no longer true now.
I constantly hear "propane is not a good fuel because it has fewer BTUs per gallon than gasoline." This is true of course, propane DOES have fewer BTUs per gallon. However, gasoline has fewer BTUs than diesel which has few BTUs than kerosene which has fewer BTUs than fuel oil, etc. The heavier the fuel, the more energy content.
Using this logic, the best motorfuel would be tar.
If you take the better fuel by "specific gravity" propane is close to the top.
Now, if anybody would like to take issue with what I've stated here, I'd like to discuss it. Just fight "fire" with "fire".
Terry CleanFuel
You know guys, I can't understand why you even humor this CLOWN with a debate. I personnally choose to ignore him and go on with my life without complicating it.
Just stating facts Mac. Everybody is free to do the research they want. But RESEARCH! Don't just take for granted what you read here.
What was true ten years ago is no longer true now.
I constantly hear "propane is not a good fuel because it has fewer BTUs per gallon than gasoline." This is true of course, propane DOES have fewer BTUs per gallon. However, gasoline has fewer BTUs than diesel which has few BTUs than kerosene which has fewer BTUs than fuel oil, etc. The heavier the fuel, the more energy content.
Using this logic, the best motorfuel would be tar.
If you take the better fuel by "specific gravity" propane is close to the top.
Now, if anybody would like to take issue with what I've stated here, I'd like to discuss it. Just fight "fire" with "fire".
#67
Terry CleanFuel
Again, this seems to support propane doesn't it? I found this statement amusing:
" Inhaling propane can be extremely dangerous and potentially fatal." Propane is non-toxic. The one and ONLY thing it does is displace air when you breath it. I suppose inhaling it can be dangerous if you ignite it.
Thanks for bringing up these references! I'm being very serious! NOW we are having a discussion!
Terry CleanFuel
Crapwagon Outtake: Propane And Propane Accessories | The Truth About Cars
This link seems to support propane?
Alternative Fuels • View topic - LIke to convert to propane, but what do you think of this ?
Again, there's pros and cons. I really don't understand the continued remarks about exhaust valve recession. What causes it:
"Lead additive in petrol prevented wear (recession) of the exhaust valve seat under the combined effects of heat (due to combustion) and valve closure (hammering on the seat). Lead acted by inhibiting impact welding of the valve on to the valve seat. Such welding, even on a microscopic scale, eventually leads to a significant loss of soft metal from the valve seat in cast iron heads, and allows the valve to sink further and further into the head.
The withdrawal of lead from fuel removes the protection your engine has enjoyed for all its life."
I don't know what else to say. Isn't Canada using unleaded fuel? The only thing I drive there is my Mooney.
Gas 2 | What is the future of fuel? What's new? What's next? Since 2007, Gas 2 has covered a rapidly changing world coming to terms with its oil addiction.
This would be pointed toward reasons NOT to convert. Ok. I agree with some of it but the material is somewhat dated.
I don't know how old you are but I'm 56 and remember as a young man the engines of that age. They were powerful and then some. Then came the age of unleaded fuel. Engines were detuned, compressions lowered and low-lift cams and smaller valves were put into service. Engines continued to be detuned to match the quality of the gasoline mix available. Is it any wonder that propane doesn't perform as well as gasoline?
I wore-out the engine in my 72 Chevy PU at around 300,000. I put in a new longblock at 11:1 with hardened seats and an RV com gained over 100 horses.
I found this statement noteworthy though:
"Of course, BTUs are only one small part of the overall equation. It doesn稚 take into account the thermal efficiency of a fuel, it痴 detonation-resistance, etc. all of which, if optimized, can tip the scales towards an alt-fuel痴 favor but we*e not talking about building an engine that痴 optimized for a given fuel. We*e talking about converting an existing engine that痴 been optimized for gasoline. See disadvantages no. 1 and 2, then start adding up the cost of the turbos, intercoolers, injectors, etc. that you値l need to buy and tune for to optimize the engine you*e trying to convert."
The True Cost of Auto LPG The Pros and Cons | The LPG Blog
The Pros and Cons of LPG Conversion
What Are the Pros and Cons of a Propane Lawn Mower?
Again, this seems to support propane doesn't it? I found this statement amusing:
" Inhaling propane can be extremely dangerous and potentially fatal." Propane is non-toxic. The one and ONLY thing it does is displace air when you breath it. I suppose inhaling it can be dangerous if you ignite it.
Thanks for bringing up these references! I'm being very serious! NOW we are having a discussion!
#68
briggs
if it displaces air then what are going to breath ,,As for the rest yes u have to weed out some of the stuff ...But there is tons more out there ...No we don't use lead fuels anymore ....Pick it apart all u want ..I don't care lol...I could careless if they made a propane unit ..But I do know that after one is made and they start using them it will be nothing but trouble and they will find out its all bullcrap like it was when they said it would be cheaper to heat your house with it blah blah blah ..Been there to went to propane cost 2 times as much as my oil did ...Went back to oil and wood combo ....Oh and I am 40 by the way ....Propane makes a mean cheese bugger I can say that
briggs
Again, this seems to support propane doesn't it? I found this statement amusing:
" Inhaling propane can be extremely dangerous and potentially fatal." Propane is non-toxic. The one and ONLY thing it does is displace air when you breath it. I suppose inhaling it can be dangerous if you ignite it.
Thanks for bringing up these references! I'm being very serious! NOW we are having a discussion!
if it displaces air then what are going to breath ,,As for the rest yes u have to weed out some of the stuff ...But there is tons more out there ...No we don't use lead fuels anymore ....Pick it apart all u want ..I don't care lol...I could careless if they made a propane unit ..But I do know that after one is made and they start using them it will be nothing but trouble and they will find out its all bullcrap like it was when they said it would be cheaper to heat your house with it blah blah blah ..Been there to went to propane cost 2 times as much as my oil did ...Went back to oil and wood combo ....Oh and I am 40 by the way ....Propane makes a mean cheese bugger I can say that
#69
briggs
anyways its been fun ..On to the next this is boring me now ...Enjoy talking to yourself wish u well
briggs
if it displaces air then what are going to breath ,,As for the rest yes u have to weed out some of the stuff ...But there is tons more out there ...No we don't use lead fuels anymore ....Pick it apart all u want ..I don't care lol...I could careless if they made a propane unit ..But I do know that after one is made and they start using them it will be nothing but trouble and they will find out its all bullcrap like it was when they said it would be cheaper to heat your house with it blah blah blah ..Been there to went to propane cost 2 times as much as my oil did ...Went back to oil and wood combo ....Oh and I am 40 by the way ....Propane makes a mean cheese bugger I can say that
anyways its been fun ..On to the next this is boring me now ...Enjoy talking to yourself wish u well
#70
Terry CleanFuel
Ok, take care and have a great Christmas or Boxing Day if that's your choice! I mean that sincerely.
My intent wasn't to offend you Mike. I AM happy that you did some research though. Perhaps others can benefit by this thread by doing their own research.
The anonymity of the internet makes us say things we typically wouldn't say face to face. I would like to apologize to Einstein and skooter, you know who you are. I watch too much Ron White...
Terry CleanFuel
anyways its been fun ..On to the next this is boring me now ...Enjoy talking to yourself wish u well
Ok, take care and have a great Christmas or Boxing Day if that's your choice! I mean that sincerely.
My intent wasn't to offend you Mike. I AM happy that you did some research though. Perhaps others can benefit by this thread by doing their own research.
The anonymity of the internet makes us say things we typically wouldn't say face to face. I would like to apologize to Einstein and skooter, you know who you are. I watch too much Ron White...
#71
Carscw
Ok so explain to me how I will save money because I just don't understand.
My mower has a briggs 24hp twin I put over a 1000 hours a year on it and only keep it for 2 years. I use 16 gallons of gas per day.
So I pay to convert it to propane. How much ?
Then I have to find propane and carry a heavy spare tank with me.
Where do I get the tanks filled?
I know of no place within a hour that fills tanks.
Then have to mount the tank on the mower in a place where the extra weight will not hurt how the mower handles on hills.
Not trying to give you a hard time. I really don't see how it would save me money.
Carscw
Ok, take care and have a great Christmas or Boxing Day if that's your choice! I mean that sincerely. My intent wasn't to offend you Mike. I AM happy that you did some research though. Perhaps others can benefit by this thread by doing their own research. The anonymity of the internet makes us say things we typically wouldn't say face to face. I would like to apologize to Einstein and skooter, you know who you are. I watch too much Ron White...
Ok so explain to me how I will save money because I just don't understand.
My mower has a briggs 24hp twin I put over a 1000 hours a year on it and only keep it for 2 years. I use 16 gallons of gas per day.
So I pay to convert it to propane. How much ?
Then I have to find propane and carry a heavy spare tank with me.
Where do I get the tanks filled?
I know of no place within a hour that fills tanks.
Then have to mount the tank on the mower in a place where the extra weight will not hurt how the mower handles on hills.
Not trying to give you a hard time. I really don't see how it would save me money.
#72
Terry CleanFuel
My job is to answer questions. It's what I do.
Here's a program I made for commercial applications:
Clean Fuel LPG Propane Conversions, Eco-friendly
If you're a commercial cutter and you stay busy I can almost guarantee there's a supplier that will keep you stocked in tanks similar to this. Where are you located?
Terry CleanFuel
Ok so explain to me how I will save money because I just don't understand.
My mower has a briggs 24hp twin I put over a 1000 hours a year on it and only keep it for 2 years. I use 16 gallons of gas per day.
So I pay to convert it to propane. How much ?
Then I have to find propane and carry a heavy spare tank with me.
Where do I get the tanks filled?
I know of no place within a hour that fills tanks.
Then have to mount the tank on the mower in a place where the extra weight will not hurt how the mower handles on hills.
Not trying to give you a hard time. I really don't see how it would save me money.
My job is to answer questions. It's what I do.
Here's a program I made for commercial applications:
Clean Fuel LPG Propane Conversions, Eco-friendly
If you're a commercial cutter and you stay busy I can almost guarantee there's a supplier that will keep you stocked in tanks similar to this. Where are you located?
Attachments
#73
Terry CleanFuel
Without an exact engine# for Briggs it's hard to say. A 24/26HP Kawasaki with a single tank mount would be around $600. Your propane supplier usually supplies the cylinders.
Commercial mower fuel here last summer was $1.61/gal with gasoline at $3.85.
Terry CleanFuel
Ok so explain to me how I will save money because I just don't understand.
So I pay to convert it to propane. How much ?
.
Without an exact engine# for Briggs it's hard to say. A 24/26HP Kawasaki with a single tank mount would be around $600. Your propane supplier usually supplies the cylinders.
Commercial mower fuel here last summer was $1.61/gal with gasoline at $3.85.
#74
A_tank96
I'll probably just stick to gas until either the government enforces it, or I see all the comercial opperators using them. Its hard for me to switch when gasoline is proven, it's reliable, and it's easy to get, and it works fine.
Aaron
A_tank96
Without an exact engine# for Briggs it's hard to say. A 24/26HP Kawasaki with a single tank mount would be around $600. Your propane supplier usually supplies the cylinders.
Commercial mower fuel here last summer was $1.61/gal with gasoline at $3.85.
I'll probably just stick to gas until either the government enforces it, or I see all the comercial opperators using them. Its hard for me to switch when gasoline is proven, it's reliable, and it's easy to get, and it works fine.
Aaron
#75
Terry CleanFuel
Not a problem but, just so you know, all our conversions are dual-fuel. You can run either.
I just noticed you're in Ohio. That's where my Manufacturer is!
Have a Merry Christmas!
Terry CleanFuel
I'll probably just stick to gas until either the government enforces it, or I see all the comercial opperators using them. Its hard for me to switch when gasoline is proven, it's reliable, and it's easy to get, and it works fine.
Aaron
Not a problem but, just so you know, all our conversions are dual-fuel. You can run either.
I just noticed you're in Ohio. That's where my Manufacturer is!
Have a Merry Christmas!
#76
M
mullins87
M
mullins87
Terry, I have some questions about your calculator:
1. What is meant by "Propane price calculated as a percentage of gasoline"?
2. The only fields that seem to affect the numbers are number of hours per year, number of gallons per year and obviously the two price per gallon fields. So are those other fields necessary?
3. The fuel cost results are simple enough, but I noticed you've specified the same fuel burn rate for both the gasoline and propane. Is this the case? Could I expect to burn one gallon per hour with propane if I burn one gallon per hour with gasoline?
4. How do you arrive at your fuel control cost?
5. Is the maintenance cost figured as a recurring yearly cost, or is it a total lifetime of the equipment cost divided over the expected number of years the equipment will be in service?
Now that you can see my questions, here is a list in order of what is in my mind in regards to these questions. My intent is for you to see what I'm thinking so you can better explain the answers.
1. This one, I haven't got a clue other than around here, right now, propane is 67% the cost of gasoline. Obviously that is not what this field is looking for.
2. I'm thinking no.
3. I realize propane is used as a vapor, but both gasoline and propane are bought and stored in a liquid form, therefore the comparisons are stated in "per gallon." If propane has fewer BTU's per gallon than gasoline, how can it achieve the same burn rate for similar power output? Remember, we're talking lawnmower engines, not specially modified engines that operate more efficiently on propane.
4. This appears to be calculated at 10% of total fuel cost. Maybe this is a commercial operator cost, but as a homeowner, I don't spend that much per year. Infact, I may only spend $5-$10 per year replacing an occasional gas can every other year.
5. If this is just regular engine maintenance costs, I don't spend but one third of what the calculator is showing.
Like I've said before, you've got a neat little calculator there. I've followed this thread, and at times, it has gotten rather interesting to say the least. I am old enough to remember all the conversions done on daily driver cars/trucks in the late 70's, and also that they faded away almost as soon as the 80's rolled around. Other than the Schwan's trucks in this area, we don't have any fleet vehicles running propane. I know vehicle technology has advanced since the 70's, and engines are far more efficient in general and are running higher compression ratios, but I have to ask myself why aren't there more propane powered vehicles on the road if it was cost effective? I know this has been debated in length here, and that was purely an observation and I'm not looking specifically for a reply to that question.
However, I would like to see this thread brought back on track.
1. What is meant by "Propane price calculated as a percentage of gasoline"?
2. The only fields that seem to affect the numbers are number of hours per year, number of gallons per year and obviously the two price per gallon fields. So are those other fields necessary?
3. The fuel cost results are simple enough, but I noticed you've specified the same fuel burn rate for both the gasoline and propane. Is this the case? Could I expect to burn one gallon per hour with propane if I burn one gallon per hour with gasoline?
4. How do you arrive at your fuel control cost?
5. Is the maintenance cost figured as a recurring yearly cost, or is it a total lifetime of the equipment cost divided over the expected number of years the equipment will be in service?
Now that you can see my questions, here is a list in order of what is in my mind in regards to these questions. My intent is for you to see what I'm thinking so you can better explain the answers.
1. This one, I haven't got a clue other than around here, right now, propane is 67% the cost of gasoline. Obviously that is not what this field is looking for.
2. I'm thinking no.
3. I realize propane is used as a vapor, but both gasoline and propane are bought and stored in a liquid form, therefore the comparisons are stated in "per gallon." If propane has fewer BTU's per gallon than gasoline, how can it achieve the same burn rate for similar power output? Remember, we're talking lawnmower engines, not specially modified engines that operate more efficiently on propane.
4. This appears to be calculated at 10% of total fuel cost. Maybe this is a commercial operator cost, but as a homeowner, I don't spend that much per year. Infact, I may only spend $5-$10 per year replacing an occasional gas can every other year.
5. If this is just regular engine maintenance costs, I don't spend but one third of what the calculator is showing.
Like I've said before, you've got a neat little calculator there. I've followed this thread, and at times, it has gotten rather interesting to say the least. I am old enough to remember all the conversions done on daily driver cars/trucks in the late 70's, and also that they faded away almost as soon as the 80's rolled around. Other than the Schwan's trucks in this area, we don't have any fleet vehicles running propane. I know vehicle technology has advanced since the 70's, and engines are far more efficient in general and are running higher compression ratios, but I have to ask myself why aren't there more propane powered vehicles on the road if it was cost effective? I know this has been debated in length here, and that was purely an observation and I'm not looking specifically for a reply to that question.
However, I would like to see this thread brought back on track.
#77
Terry CleanFuel
Terry CleanFuel
I had to print your post so I could answer here. :laughing:
#1 When I made this calculator we wanted a value that would show the minimum savings vs. gasoline. At that time we used 10% but left it open to input your own propane price.
#2 This program was originally geared toward commercial mowers. Some large cutters have over 300 units that burn fuel at different rates. The five year is the normal life of a commercial mower with ten year being for other equipment that is not used as much.
#3 Using the AltFuel conversions we are experiencing at least 1:1. There are other factors involved though:
#4 Fuel control cost: The National average for pilferage for commercial cutters is 10%. Obviously if you're mowing your own lawn this wouldn't apply.
#5 This is based on extending oil changes 3:1. After warranty expires of course. These aren't my numbers. They are from the industry maintenance professionals.
I hope this helps. 99.99% of my customers are either commercial landscapers or Small Engine/Mower dealers. Except for the "fuel control cost" it should be pretty accurate. That's been my experience anyway.
#1 When I made this calculator we wanted a value that would show the minimum savings vs. gasoline. At that time we used 10% but left it open to input your own propane price.
#2 This program was originally geared toward commercial mowers. Some large cutters have over 300 units that burn fuel at different rates. The five year is the normal life of a commercial mower with ten year being for other equipment that is not used as much.
#3 Using the AltFuel conversions we are experiencing at least 1:1. There are other factors involved though:
#4 Fuel control cost: The National average for pilferage for commercial cutters is 10%. Obviously if you're mowing your own lawn this wouldn't apply.
#5 This is based on extending oil changes 3:1. After warranty expires of course. These aren't my numbers. They are from the industry maintenance professionals.
I hope this helps. 99.99% of my customers are either commercial landscapers or Small Engine/Mower dealers. Except for the "fuel control cost" it should be pretty accurate. That's been my experience anyway.
#78
M
mullins87
M
mullins87
I aplogize for the long post. :laughing: Thanks for your answers. So based on your answers, and now that I have a better understanding how the calculator works, as a homeowner I can expect to save $75-$100 per year based on roughly 120 gallons per summer of use. I don't know for sure how many gallons I go through, I just know it seems like I'm refilling my two 5 gallon containers about every other time I mow. So my savings could be more. Don't know if it's worth it for me though, but I do like the thought of burning US fuel rather than some terrorist state fuel.
#79
Terry CleanFuel
You're quite welcome. Yup, it's Patriotic, but it's also better for the environment AND your mower.
Terry CleanFuel
I aplogize for the long post. :laughing: Thanks. Don't know if it's worth it for me though, but I do like the thought of burning US fuel rather than some terrorist state fuel.
You're quite welcome. Yup, it's Patriotic, but it's also better for the environment AND your mower.