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my fix to overheating tractor

#1

M

motoman

Hi grass people, Against my better judgement I bought a home with 1 1/2 acres of grass about 7 years ago, and innocently bought a Craftsman YTD 4000 48" lawn tractor. As a maintenance freak with cars I thought careful oil changes etc would hold me in good stead... what an education! Anyway I finally put an oil cooler and fan along with oil temp and oil pressure gages on the beast. I wonder if anyone would be interested in how? Otherwise I'll just read the forum. Regards Motoman


#2

reynoldston

reynoldston

motoman said:
Hi grass people, Against my better judgement I bought a home with 1 1/2 acres of grass about 7 years ago, and innocently bought a Craftsman YTD 4000 48" lawn tractor. As a maintenance freak with cars I thought careful oil changes etc would hold me in good stead... what an education! Anyway I finally put an oil cooler and fan along with oil temp and oil pressure gages on the beast. I wonder if anyone would be interested in how? Otherwise I'll just read the forum. Regards Motoman
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum, We sure would be interested seeing that is what this forum is all about.:smile:


#3

RobertBrown

RobertBrown

Absolutely, by all means. Post some photos please, I need a visual aid..:cool:


#4

B

Black Bart

The past 30 years I have used water cooled mowers to do my mowing but this spring I bought a air cooled mower and I have been thinking about installing a oil cooler on it.


#5

Briana

Briana

Hey there - WELCOME to LMF!

I moved your thread to the General Mower Discussion Forum. :smile:


#6

M

motoman

RobertBrown said:
Absolutely, by all means. Post some photos please, I need a visual aid..:cool:
Click to expand...

Hi Robert, I am trying to learn how to load pics. But the larger frustration is my long winded story which apparently will not fit the allowed space. I was cut off yesterday, and may have to tell it in segments. I guess I thought this forum would allow large explanations like car forums. Motoman


#7

B

benski

The installment method is okay, just cumbersome.:biggrin: Had you switched to synthetic oil before you went to the effort of these upgrades?


#8

M

motoman

Briana said:
Hey there - WELCOME to LMF!

I moved your thread to the General Mower Discussion Forum. :smile:
Click to expand...

Briana, Help. AM I too long winded for this site. To show and tell I need more text space than I have been able to get here. Cut off twice yesterday before I finished. Also few will be able to visualize my fix without close-up pics. Tx Motoman


#9

M

motoman

benski said:
The installment method is okay, just cumbersome.:biggrin: Had you switched to synthetic oil before you went to the effort of these upgrades?
Click to expand...

Benski, Unless you can tell me of superior cooling with synthetic I do not see how that would have helped. Was using 10w30. The only damage to the engine (besides the cam) was a pushed valve guide which I attribute to overheating of the al head and /or max tolerances of components vs over heat. Motoman


#10

M

motoman

Briana said:
Hey there - WELCOME to LMF!

I moved your thread to the General Mower Discussion Forum. :smile:
Click to expand...

Briana, Sorry to bug you again, but the first installment of the story is still in the "modification" section . Can you move it to the "General..." also so the installments can be in one place? Tx motoman PS look for "Cooling hot INTEK"


#11

B

Black Bart

motoman said:
Benski, Unless you can tell me of superior cooling with synthetic I do not see how that would have helped. Was using 10w30. The only damage to the engine (besides the cam) was a pushed valve guide which I attribute to overheating of the al head and /or max tolerances of components vs over heat. Motoman
Click to expand...
Conventional oil will fail at 225F synthetic will continue to lubricate waay beyond that.

This is the main reason I will not use anything but Synthetic in my air cooled engines.


#12

K

KennyV

Like Bart has said... Synthetic motor oil is going to be a superior lubricant ... friction is a big source of heat... a better lube will help control heat by reducing the friction that results from the overheated oil...
Synthetic remains a great lube ... even when very hot...

In an air cooled engine there are places that get extremely hot... Oil is one thing that carries it away.
Oil coolers on air cooled engines are a great help if for no other reason than the increase in oil capacity... same with over sized filters.... more oil and more surface area to dump heat... :smile:KennyV

PS ...as to long posts... remember that a picture is usually worth 1000 words... Put in a few pictures and you could crop out a few thousand words..... :laughing:


#13

B

Black Bart

I totally agree with what Kenny said but I will add that you don't want just any Synthetic oil the EPA made the manufactures of oil for passenger cars to reduce the level of ZDDP because it is hard on catalytic converters.

If you use a heavy duty oil for diesel trucks it is exempt of these rules.
I use Shell T-6 5-40 it is a full synthetic and has a lot of ZDDP.

The point of a cam lobe in a engine with heavy springs will have 220,000 psi on the lobe.
Conventional oil breaks down from heat and will fail at temps about 225F and since it no longer has enough ZDDP to protect while no oil is present it will ruin the cam.
Thousand of old cars has been victim to this.

While a oil cooler is a great idea if you really want to keep the engine going for years do it a favor and put T-6 in it your engine will thank you for it. :thumbsup:


#14

K

KennyV

Oops... I should have mentioned the ZDDP...

All diesel oils are good'
Rotella T6 has about the most high pressure additive you can get... I have also been using it in every engine I have for some time now....:smile:KennyV


#15

M

motoman

KennyV said:
Oops... I should have mentioned the ZDDP...

All diesel oils are good'
Rotella T6 has about the most high pressure additive you can get... I have also been using it in every engine I have for some time now....:smile:KennyV
Click to expand...

Bart and kenny . Thanks for the response, but I am not convinced the synthetic is the solution in my case. I believe the INTEK is marginal as produced. I am not an authority, but seem to have seen a Kohler with an oil cooler and hydraulic lifters. Just seems like this motor feeds repair depots and exchanges for "new" motors. Anyway I continue my fix in installments below. Motoman


#16

M

motoman

Cool the INTEK II

The oil in summer (70 to 80 F typ) runs 230 F to 300F, depending upon load. This fix does not control oil temp to 230F while mowing with full baskets. The temp will climb through 230 to 290F with new fan on. I stop to dump.Tractor hood raised, fan on, idling. In 5 min the oil temp is down to 230F. Cool air accross oil cooler with fan and hood up. Do not run fan when mowing. Unlike cars & bikes there is no air blast in motion, so the cooling is in episodes. The fan blades are shrouded off due to my primitive mount. Clever readers may imrove this.
The installed pkg is compact (4"x11 x12"),but requires minor mods to the Hood. The fan shroud is trimmed. The left side hood louvre is bent up. The spinning fan blade tips pass about 1" above the goose neck of the brake pedal. A guard can be easily added. If you are still interested. I will post the installation order and PL. Just say "rave on Motoman."


#17

K

KennyV

If you are running oil in the 250 to 300 degree range... you ought to be running a good synthetic... anything less will cook...
:smile:KennyV


#18

B

Black Bart

Re: Cool the INTEK II

motoman said:
The oil in summer (70 to 80 F typ) runs 230 F to 300F, depending upon load. This fix does not control oil temp to 230F while mowing with full baskets. The temp will climb through 230 to 290F with new fan on. I stop to dump.Tractor hood raised, fan on, idling. In 5 min the oil temp is down to 230F. Cool air across oil cooler with fan and hood up. Do not run fan when mowing. Unlike cars & bikes there is no air blast in motion, so the cooling is in episodes. The fan blades are shrouded off due to my primitive mount. Clever readers may imrove this.
The installed pkg is compact (4"x11 x12"),but requires minor mods to the Hood. The fan shroud is trimmed. The left side hood louvre is bent up. The spinning fan blade tips pass about 1" above the goose neck of the brake pedal. A guard can be easily added. If you are still interested. I will post the installation order and PL. Just say "rave on Motoman."
Click to expand...

This post really concerns me I have mowed for the past 30 years with a water cooled engine.
This spring I bought a new JD Z Trak and I have been thinking about installing a oil cooler on it.

I have not checked my oil temp but I have a infra heat gun that I could shoot the filter and get a good idea what it is running at.

From all my years of hot rodding I already have a couple of coolers laying around and I have the fixture that will fit the Briggs and the other end for the remote filter so all I need to do is make up some hoses and custom mounting brackets.
I think I need to get busy and build a cooler for my Briggs.

I do have a HUGE advantage over you in that I use T-6 rather than Dinosaur juice NO WAY that will work at the temps you mention, You are headed for another engine failure. :eek:


#19

reddragon

reddragon

can you take few pictures of the oil cooler set-up and where you plugged into the block? :smile:


#20

M

motoman

Re: Cool the INTEK II

Black Bart said:
This post really concerns me I have mowed for the past 30 years with a water cooled engine.
This spring I bought a new JD Z Trak and I have been thinking about installing a oil cooler on it.

I have not checked my oil temp but I have a infra heat gun that I could shoot the filter and get a good idea what it is running at.

From all my years of hot rodding I already have a couple of coolers laying around and I have the fixture that will fit the Briggs and the other end for the remote filter so all I need to do is make up some hoses and custom mounting brackets.
I think I need to get busy and build a cooler for my Briggs.

I do have a HUGE advantage over you in that I use T-6 rather than Dinosaur juice NO WAY that will work at the temps you mention, You are headed for another engine failure. :eek:
Click to expand...
Bart, We agree my oil temp is not acceptable. I bet many have similar. Take your temp after a load of about 5 min e.g., full bskts, slight grade, warm day. Motoman


#21

M

motoman

reddragon said:
can you take few pictures of the oil cooler set-up and where you plugged into the block? :smile:
Click to expand...

Hi Red, I'm trying ...need camera fixed. Meanwhile I'm about to issue installation sequence. Motoman


#22

M

motoman

Black Bart said:
I totally agree with what Kenny said but I will add that you don't want just any Synthetic oil the EPA made the manufactures of oil for passenger cars to reduce the level of ZDDP because it is hard on catalytic converters.

If you use a heavy duty oil for diesel trucks it is exempt of these rules.
I use Shell T-6 5-40 it is a full synthetic and has a lot of ZDDP.

The point of a cam lobe in a engine with heavy springs will have 220,000 psi on the lobe.
Conventional oil breaks down from heat and will fail at temps about 225F and since it no longer has enough ZDDP to protect while no oil is present it will ruin the cam.
Thousand of old cars has been victim to this.

While a oil cooler is a great idea if you really want to keep the engine going for years do it a favor and put T-6 in it your engine will thank you for it. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Bart, As noted the cam failed because the guide pushed and stopped rocker actuation (solid stack up). The intake cam was perfect. The springs are lite, compress with fingers, Motoman


#23

B

Black Bart

motoman said:
Bart, As noted the cam failed because the guide pushed and stopped rocker actuation (solid stack up). The intake cam was perfect. The springs are lite, compress with fingers, Motoman
Click to expand...
Yes I understand I mentioned the spring pressure pointing out that a lot of old muscle cars have lost cams from lack of ZDDP in their oil.

You said even after the cooler was installed you oil temp is as high as 300F what I'm trying to tell you is conventional oil can not lubricate at that temperature.

You need a good synthetic but if you are convinced that you don't need it then nothing i can do.

Like my pappy told me one time.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.


#24

M

motoman

Cool Hot Intek II Installation

(1) Remove stock oil filter. Drill/tap 1/8 NPT hole near upper port on new adapter (PL) so that oil can reach oil press sender (sound scary?not) Have it done. Only machine mod. Debur,clean. Bolt oil adaptor to block with hose nipples in place (PL). (2) Position oil cooler (PL) to determine mount position. Trial mount seeking airflow accross, between BAT and engine rear. Rubber mount (PL) cooler with nipples (PL). (3) Size ,install oil hoses (PL). (4) Solid mount fan (PL) outside cooler blowing accross. (5) Remove stock oil drain plug. Install plug (PL) tapped for Beede oil temp gauge.Screw in Beede sender (PL can do in vise 1st). (6) select positions for gauges/switch on dash.Hole cut/drill. Install gauges and sw (PL). (7) Wire oil gauges and SW . Take 12v from BAT cable buss (node) . (8) Tirim under hood air shroud and bend side louvre to clear fan. (9) Install Altima oil filter on adaptor. Fill sump. Remove spark plugs. Crank engine to fill cooler until pressure gauge flutters. Install spark plugs. (10) Top oil.Start engine. Search for oil leaks , esp oil lines.


#25

M

motoman

cool hot intek III: Parts and sources (PL references)

(1)oil filter adaptor:JC Whit ZX1736775T $25 Specify Nissan Altima. Nipples: 3/8 NPT straight pipe,short, cut to suit:plumbing. (2)oil cooler JC Whit ZX381481X $48, Mounts ?auto windows, or electronics surplus? 3/4" dia with 2 machine scrrews, aka "biscuit mounts" rubber, sorry, scrounge 'em. Nipple assys made from 2 ea 1/2 NPT male 90 deg EL x 3/8 NPT Female with 2 ea 1/2NPT male x 3/8 "ferrule,Plumbing. (3) oil hose: auto oil resist 3/8" 15" and cut. (4) fan: (mine) 91 Nissan Sentra 1 of 2 radiator fans, 12V (3.5 Amp measured) auto salvage? find better? Blades cut to 11 1/" dia. (5)sump plug/Beede sensor home : Lowes brass 11/16 hex w/1/8 NPT ctr. A776 17000776 $ ?.(6)oil press ga: JC WhitZX272651 w/sender (elec) $29 also auto stores. Oil temp ga JC Whit ZX126193T +sender ZX126195 $20+$11. Switch on/off dash. Any mountable. Misc: hose clamps , nyloc nuts (H Frt) , wire, inline fuse (IMPORTANT) .


#26

M

motoman

cool hot intek IV: Installation tip, adapter

The "clocking" of the oil adapter is important. Once you mount the oil cooler, oil hose installment is tight on the lower hose. You need to shorten the lower hose nipple to just provide for two hose clamps on the right oil adapter hose. This is to avoid nipple to nipple contact and to allow bending the hose to get it on. Another reason is that both hoses provide considerable mounting support and shock absorbption for the cooler. You should threfore expect to dry -run this task and note exactly how the nipple clocks. Next, the hex nut holding the adapter to the block is thin and chamfered so it wants to jump out of the socket when torquing. The O ring seal allows the adapter to turn as it is torqued. Solutions: dress down the socket, and make a temp clocking aid from wood ( 6 3/8" long) which abuts the adapter and wedges against the tractor sheet metal .

I realize all this is difficult to follow without either parts in hand or pictures. We bought a new camera. By the way I believe the parts are around $200 in 2007 dollars.


#27

M

motoman

Re:Cool Hot Intek: Tractor heats observed

My notes showed that just after the "fix" I drove around in Dec , ambient 50 deg F, no deck , towing trailer light branches load, oil temp gauge 190 deg F. After stopping up to 200 deg F. No fan.

In Summer here , 70-80 deg F . light mowing, light baskets on level turf mid 200's deg F. No fan

As noted Summer here 70-80 deg F heavy mowing, full damp grass baskets on slight grades, before grass dump 290 deg F to 300 deg F. The Beedee gauge is calibrated up to 320 deg F. Five minute therapy , hood raised, engine idling. fan on ,temp down to 230 deg F or lower


#28

demhustler

demhustler

any success with posting picts?

easy fix:
1. attachments

attach1.JPG

2. "insert image" button
right click on picture - properties - copy address(url)
insert image button - paste

Attachments











#29

M

motoman

Cooling hot intek:part Picture ref pl above

JCW diagrams/PNs from 2007 . Arrow shows threaded port to be added for pressure sender.

scan0005.jpg


#30

M

motoman

demhustler said:
any success with posting picts?

easy fix:
1. attachments

View attachment 3018

2. "insert image" button
right click on picture - properties - copy address(url)
insert image button - paste
Click to expand...

demhustler, thanks for the help, see below Motoman . PS New camera here stay tuned


#31

M

motoman

cool hot intek: Installation tip V cooler & fan mounts

Cooler, There is flexibility in this so these figures are ref. MTL 5/8" wide x 1/8" Top strap drilled for mounting 3- 1/8" ctr-ctr. biscuit mount inboard on cooler flange, other end to inner side of tractor panel, and bolted tight. Bottom strap 4-1/2" long, angled down outside about 30 deg, from cooler flange bolted tight. Biscuit mount outside the side tractor panel. Holes 3 " ctr-ctr.

Fan, Very light sheet metal (16 GA , .062") Cut out to pick up 3 fan bolts and extend to back side tractor panel. On panel 2 ea 1.0" standoffs (tube or pipe) on outside of panel to set fan outsie cooler.Rough dims of mount 7" x 6". All rigid mounted.

A note on the cooler. With the biscuit mounts on the driver side and the two oil hoses on the front side of the cooler flanges you can move the cooler and feel the float of rubber. No vibe problems .

Stay tuned , say yea motoman, rave on. Motoman


#32

M

motoman

cooling hot intek: installation tip VI oil pressure sender and gauge mounting

Are you saying " will the energizer bunny just stop?" Yes , after photos and this last tip. Do not use a mechanical oil pressure gauge. I had one and several new nylon tube/ compression nut spares which I went thru with bad results. Using the original (normally plugged ) port on front of stock oil filter protrusion I could not keep the connection tight and created some real messes in my driveway. Spring for the electric with its bulky, leak free sender-no more problems. The electric sender is big ( 2" can OD x 3-1/4" long) so it must mount driver side in the machined port I have mentioned and "shown" with arrow above. Look for it in the long promised photos (to come).

The dash gauges must be secured well due to bucking bronco ride.Use small nyloc nuts ( 8-32 or 10-32 or metric?) if you can find them. I just doubled lup and created jam nuts (two nuts each screw thread torque 'em lightly together0. PS I did not mention before hot/hottest oil pressure 35-40 PSI.
with Chevron 10W-30. Motoman


#33

M

motoman

Pictures. The dash has a rubber sheet to help shock mount gauges.

Attachments



















#34

R

robert

Excellent thread. I was surprised to read that Kohler states anything under 300*F for the operating oil temp is acceptable-seems awful high to me but they do make engines.


#35

reddragon

reddragon

i think you may have a serious case of tinkeritis :biggrin:............:thumbsup:


#36

Chev

Chev

It would seem to me that you could improve airflow through the cooler by mounting it over the engine shroud intake.

I do like the use of the remote filter kit in this application to utilize more economical auto filters. I may even consider a dual filter setup.


#37

M

motoman

Chev, The JCW oil adaptor order page asked " what car" so I chose Altima because of its popularity. If the part (s) are still available you may be able to choose other makes. By the way for those who think my fittings are ugly-they are. At that time I was punishing the tractor for the problems. There are brass, AN etc alternatives for "show." The oil adaptor is bottom- of -the -line and crude, but usable.Motoman


#38

M

motoman

Chev said:
It would seem to me that you could improve airflow through the cooler by mounting it over the engine shroud intake.

I do like the use of the remote filter kit in this application to utilize more economical auto filters. I may even consider a dual filter setup.
Click to expand...
Chev, Sorry , did not respond to the airflow /cooler subject. Will take it under advisement, but I am afraid to mess with the air cooling fan. The extra load of draw- through might cause problem. Motoman


#39

B

benski

Now that you've gone through the effort to put a cooler on your machine, try an experiment for us, if you would;

1. Give us how hot your conventional oil was getting before the cooler mod.
2. Give us hot hot your oil is getting after the cooler mod.
3. Switch over to any of the premium synthetic oils that have been proffered here (Amsoil ASE, Shell Rotella T-6, etc.,) and tell us at what temperature your oil now runs at. I'll take a stab at between 20 and 30*F cooler for the synthetic.:smile:


#40

B

Black Bart

When you posted how hot your oil was with the cooler on I thought you must have put on a really small cooler because it was not cooling like it should.

After seeing the photos I see you have a large cooler but it can't work properly the way you have it installed because you are just recirculating super heated air.

After the fan blows through the oil cooler it just loops around and goes through again.
If you cut a large opening in the hood install a grill like they have at Lowe's and build a fan shroud so it must pull outside air then you will be blowing cool outside air through the cooler instead of recirculating the hot air under the hood.

Also the hot air coming out of the oil cooler is going into the cooling intake for the engine and making it run hotter.
My 180 JD has a divider under the hood and it pulls fresh air instead of hot air from under the hood you could do something similar.

You could pull air in from the top of the hood for the intake for the engine.

If I put a oil cooler on my Z Trak i won't have these problem the engine is out in the open lots of fresh cool air.

I guess you could remove the hood on your tractor it would work much better with the hood removed.


#41

reddragon

reddragon

you know.....black bart is right.....you need that cooler pulling fresh air and pushing the heat into fresh air.....an air cooled engine isnt going to like extra heat added to the mix at all...if you had the cooler behind the grill [ i know its hard because of the hood flips up] then ducted the heated air to the side so that it has nothing to do with the engine cooling...or at least duct it where it is so the heat exits the engine compartment :frown:


#42

M

motoman

Black Bart said:
When you posted how hot your oil was with the cooler on I thought you must have put on a really small cooler because it was not cooling like it should.

After seeing the photos I see you have a large cooler but it can't work properly the way you have it installed because you are just recirculating super heated air.

After the fan blows through the oil cooler it just loops around and goes through again.
If you cut a large opening in the hood install a grill like they have at Lowe's and build a fan shroud so it must pull outside air then you will be blowing cool outside air through the cooler instead of recirculating the hot air under the hood.

Also the hot air coming out of the oil cooler is going into the cooling intake for the engine and making it run hotter.
My 180 JD has a divider under the hood and it pulls fresh air instead of hot air from under the hood you could do something similar.

You could pull air in from the top of the hood for the intake for the engine.

If I put a oil cooler on my Z Trak i won't have these problem the engine is out in the open lots of fresh cool air.

I guess you could remove the hood on your tractor it would work much better with the hood removed.
Click to expand...

Bart I agree, and am thinking about it. I did note previously that my fan mount is not so good and blanks off the center of the cooler, I am thinking of a spider man "web" made out of .060" wire. . It might really help along with better ducting in and out. Motoman


#43

M

motoman

reddragon said:
you know.....black bart is right.....you need that cooler pulling fresh air and pushing the heat into fresh air.....an air cooled engine isnt going to like extra heat added to the mix at all...if you had the cooler behind the grill [ i know its hard because of the hood flips up] then ducted the heated air to the side so that it has nothing to do with the engine cooling...or at least duct it where it is so the heat exits the engine compartment :frown:
Click to expand...
Red, yes, see response to Bart below. So you want me to keep "tinkering?" Motoman


#44

M

motoman

Intek salute to other HOT rides: Other forums

Take a minute from trying to be cool, and salute these hot rides:
Racing desert truck, oil cooler and fan, 255 F
Dune buggy before cooler, 290F
Desert race truck, 285F
Unknown rig, 280F at hillclimb
Suzuki 1150 stuck in traffic, 240F
Aircooled 911, long uphill run, 280F
Suzuki Bandit 1200 circuit racing 293F
Corvettete road racer 290F
Corvette autocrosser , 110F ambient, 300F+
Motoman's Craftsman 3 bagger, 2 MPH, 300F


#45

R

robert

That smug mug site has a pic showing about 260*F- after an hour of operating in very hot ambient temp, Kohler says anything under 300*F is doing very well; I wouldn't lose any sleep over whether or not the oil cooler is adding heat to the engine because of where it is located in the air stream.
Kohler shows an oil cooler for all its engines as an aftermarket add on, and there is also a remote oil filter mount-thinking that you could buy both and mount the cooler right in the air intake....

Briggs told me that if I added their oil cooler to the ELS the warranty would be void-another reason NOT to like Briggs and Stratton.

Briggs says not to, Kohler says go for it if you wish, my kinda Company.


#46

M

motoman

robert said:
That smug mug site has a pic showing about 260*F- after an hour of operating in very hot ambient temp, Kohler says anything under 300*F is doing very well; I wouldn't lose any sleep over whether or not the oil cooler is adding heat to the engine because of where it is located in the air stream.
Kohler shows an oil cooler for all its engines as an aftermarket add on, and there is also a remote oil filter mount-thinking that you could buy both and mount the cooler right in the air intake....

Briggs told me that if I added their oil cooler to the ELS the warranty would be void-another reason NOT to like Briggs and Stratton.

Briggs says not to, Kohler says go for it if you wish, my kinda Company.
Click to expand...

Robert, "what smug site"? Is it Kohler or BS that says 260F after hours? As noted I am not hip about the tractor / mower world , but I thought once at Sears I saw a rig with a "gold star" or "gold seal" Kohler for some extra dough. No one there could tell me what was so great. Regards Motoman


#47

reddragon

reddragon

motoman said:
Red, yes, see response to Bart below. So you want me to keep "tinkering?" Motoman
Click to expand...

absolutely !.....i like that your analyzing and trying to improve something.......and i love gauges :biggrin:


#48

R

robert

motoman,
betsy-tom (betsy-tom)'s Photos | SmugMug

You have to go all the way down to the bottom and look for the 'Cub Cadet' place, an awful lot of pictures showing a new GT2000. I think the temp pics are on the last or second to last page; this Cub is one nice tractor, .....

But man do you have to feel sorry for the people who bought that motorhome :eek:


#49

B

Black Bart

Motorman are you getting you oil temperature when it comes out of the engine or are you measuring it on the way into the engine after it has been through the cooler.
Their should be a big difference.
i drove a Sprint car and it had 2 gauges for oil temp it had oil IN and oil OUT
Oil out is the important temp but if the oil in is high the cooler is plugged and we would clean the dirt out of it.:thumbsup:

If you are seeing 300F on the oil in the oil out would be even higher.:eek:


#50

B

benski

How is the temperature of the oil going to increase once it is inside the cooler?:confused2:


#51

B

Black Bart

benski said:
How is the temperature of the oil going to increase once it is inside the cooler?:confused2:
Click to expand...

It Won't it should drop.


#52

M

motoman

Black Bart said:
Motorman are you getting you oil temperature when it comes out of the engine or are you measuring it on the way into the engine after it has been through the cooler.
Their should be a big difference.
i drove a Sprint car and it had 2 gauges for oil temp it had oil IN and oil OUT
Oil out is the important temp but if the oil in is high the cooler is plugged and we would clean the dirt out of it.:thumbsup:

If you are seeing 300F on the oil in the oil out would be even higher.:eek:
Click to expand...
Bart, The sensor is located inside the drain plug, see thumbnail pic. To me it is therefore somewhat influenced by short term soak of pan temp which may be ( it is said) 20 degrees hotter than the oil. By the way the pan sits on four small legs on the huge steel 10 ga frame. Once that gets hot it aint helping things. This thread is causing me to over heat . I wake up nights.....Motoman


#53

reddragon

reddragon

motoman said:
Bart, The sensor is located inside the drain plug, see thumbnail pic. To me it is therefore somewhat influenced by short term soak of pan temp which may be ( it is said) 20 degrees hotter than the oil. By the way the pan sits on four small legs on the huge steel 10 ga frame. Once that gets hot it aint helping things. This thread is causing me to over heat . I wake up nights.....Motoman
Click to expand...
welcome to MOWERITIS! :laughing:


#54

M

motoman

Parts Source Update: Low cost temp indicator?

I need the 12 step program to stop this...I tried to verify availability of the oil filter adaptor and the cooler from 2007. JCW does not show either one. Go to JEGS online and see B&M 70265 $60 cooler . Caution it is 1-1/2" wider and takes AN fittings , pretty, but the bottom hookup could be tight. Also see Trans Dapt 1313 adapter $37. No Beebe oil gauge at JCW, but plenty others on line and at auto stores. Be sure to get the 300F calibration. The 280F just won't do it.

Times are tough and some may be leery of gauges, whether drilling dash or wiring. So use crayons. To be exact "Tempil Sticks" or crayons which are wiped onto a metal surface and change appearance when specific temp is reached. Just install the Cooler put the Tempil Stick on your pocket protector.
Worried? Pull crayon PN 719-TS 0275 (or your choice) and wipe the filter or block. If shiny your motor temp may be headed toward 300F. Stop and cool. There's a 400F for the head .Theyre $9 ea + ship . Go to "bettymills.com" ( I have not tried this) Motoman


#55

M

motoman

benski said:
Now that you've gone through the effort to put a cooler on your machine, try an experiment for us, if you would;

1. Give us how hot your conventional oil was getting before the cooler mod.
2. Give us hot hot your oil is getting after the cooler mod.
3. Switch over to any of the premium synthetic oils that have been proffered here (Amsoil ASE, Shell Rotella T-6, etc.,) and tell us at what temperature your oil now runs at. I'll take a stab at between 20 and 30*F cooler for the synthetic.:smile:
Click to expand...
Benski 1. No figures, but head started to come apart. (2) Done see above. (3) Rigorous scientific method says control the variables. Grass here is browning out , easy to cut and light. I could simulate load with ballast in the 3 basketd, but not the blade load of high wet grass cutting. I will consider this request next spring. Meanwhile would you consider baseline your temps with syn and switch to conventional oil and take the same readings for us? Motoman


#56

B

Black Bart

motoman said:
Bart, The sensor is located inside the drain plug, see thumbnail pic. To me it is therefore somewhat influenced by short term soak of pan temp which may be ( it is said) 20 degrees hotter than the oil. By the way the pan sits on four small legs on the huge steel 10 ga frame. Once that gets hot it aint helping things. This thread is causing me to over heat . I wake up nights.....Motoman
Click to expand...

That should give you a good idea of what the oil temp is as it drops out of the engine and that is the temp that you want to know.

I'm going to mow in another hour and I plan on using my infra heat gun to get some readings on mine.
I will post the results.


#57

M

motoman

Black Bart said:
That should give you a good idea of what the oil temp is as it drops out of the engine and that is the temp that you want to know.

I'm going to mow in another hour and I plan on using my infra heat gun to get some readings on mine.
I will post the results.
Click to expand...

Bart. Good show Motoman


#58

M

motoman

File notes on pushed valve guide

Motoman believes this thread is approaching full circle with lots of good discussion . I believe someone has started a new thread on oil which is ever fascinating to gear heads. This has been an operetta to me but the thin lady must hum before it's over. This data is notes I took after the rt cylinder stopped after the cam lobe was ground round due to a pushed guide. I always felt heat played a role, but also a quality lapse in either guide bore or guide OD. So here it is . I ask again that cognizant engineering or engine building types chime in.
The pushed guide measured .4345" OD The head bore for the guide, measusred 9 times with a hole gauge and averaged was .432". For fun everything was cleaned, head at 300F and guide at 32F , and reassembled. Hydraulic assembly pressure seemed normal. Assembled and run a few hours.
Disassembleld, the same guide was again on the move upward. New head then assembled and no more problems. (this before the cooling fix), Were the press fit dimensions correct? I don't know.
What are the forces acting on a guide? I once assembled a head whose guides had metal o rings
in annular groove which inhibited such movement. Seems like pennies worth of prevention Motoman


#59

Chev

Chev

Two thou interference fit is not much, but keep in mind that that the compression is transmitted through and a tighter fit could make the valve clearance to small causing undue friction there.

I think I would use one of the Lock-tights available to keep the guide in place. The do some good stuff over there. That seems like it would be a cheaper bit of prevention than the o-rings.


#60

reddragon

reddragon

Re: File notes on pushed valve guide

motoman said:
Motoman believes this thread is approaching full circle with lots of good discussion . I believe someone has started a new thread on oil which is ever fascinating to gear heads. This has been an operetta to me but the thin lady must hum before it's over. This data is notes I took after the rt cylinder stopped after the cam lobe was ground round due to a pushed guide. I always felt heat played a role, but also a quality lapse in either guide bore or guide OD. So here it is . I ask again that cognizant engineering or engine building types chime in.
The pushed guide measured .4345" OD The head bore for the guide, measusred 9 times with a hole gauge and averaged was .432". For fun everything was cleaned, head at 300F and guide at 32F , and reassembled. Hydraulic assembly pressure seemed normal. Assembled and run a few hours.
Disassembleld, the same guide was again on the move upward. New head then assembled and no more problems. (this before the cooling fix), Were the press fit dimensions correct? I don't know.
What are the forces acting on a guide? I once assembled a head whose guides had metal o rings
in annular groove which inhibited such movement. Seems like pennies worth of prevention Motoman
Click to expand...

its great that you keep a record of the details.....its critical in refining an invention :thumbsup:


#61

B

benski

Motoman;
I'll offer the following experiment.

I'll take any of my running riding mowers, run them on the same flat oval (without mower blade engaged) for twenty minutes with conventional 30 wt. oil (Chevron 30 wt.), and then change out the conventional oil and install some Amsoil ASE synthetic. Temperatures will be recorded with an infrared thermometer at the same location on the engine, at the same distance away for the measuring device.:smile: I can't afford an ASTME spec test, but I'll do my best to take repeatable measurements.


#62

B

benski

With regards to post #51;

EXACTLY my point. The temperature should indeed drop.:wink::biggrin:


#63

M

motoman

benski said:
Motoman;
I'll offer the following experiment.

I'll take any of my running riding mowers, run them on the same flat oval (without mower blade engaged) for twenty minutes with conventional 30 wt. oil (Chevron 30 wt.), and then change out the conventional oil and install some Amsoil ASE synthetic. Temperatures will be recorded with an infrared thermometer at the same location on the engine, at the same distance away for the measuring device.:smile: I can't afford an ASTME spec test, but I'll do my best to take repeatable measurements.
Click to expand...
benski this will be good and almost beyond the call of duty (how much Amsoil stock do you own? :smile: Motoman


#64

M

motoman

robert said:
motoman,
betsy-tom (betsy-tom)'s Photos | SmugMug

You have to go all the way down to the bottom and look for the 'Cub Cadet' place, an awful lot of pictures showing a new GT2000. I think the temp pics are on the last or second to last page; this Cub is one nice tractor, .....

But man do you have to feel sorry for the people who bought that motorhome :eek:
Click to expand...

Robert, Buyer beware I guess. I couldn't find the Cadet Motoman


#65

B

Black Bart

I have a friend that works at the local TSC store and he was telling me that the Cub Cadet was a real POS so last week I stopped their to see him and I was going to take a look at one.

When I tried to raise the hood it twisted and looked like it was distorted so bad it would not even come back where it belonged :eek: so I gently lowered the hood and walked away.

Cheapest built thing I ever saw much worse then the old MTD were .:thumbdown:


#66

B

Black Bart

benski said:
With regards to post #51;

EXACTLY my point. The temperature should indeed drop.:wink::biggrin:
Click to expand...

SHOULD is the operative word here but in Motorman's case it did not drop much.
I believe that is because he is just recirculating the hot air under the hood.

Look at the coolers installed on cars and trucks they are behind the grill where they get a lot of fresh air forced through them.
About the only way that setup will help is if he takes the hood off.


#67

reddragon

reddragon

robert said:
motoman,
betsy-tom (betsy-tom)'s Photos | SmugMug

You have to go all the way down to the bottom and look for the 'Cub Cadet' place, an awful lot of pictures showing a new GT2000. I think the temp pics are on the last or second to last page; this Cub is one nice tractor, .....

But man do you have to feel sorry for the people who bought that motorhome :eek:
Click to expand...
those temp readings are interesting.....i wonder where they got those immersion readings?....would like to see that


#68

M

motoman

Chev said:
Two thou interference fit is not much, but keep in mind that that the compression is transmitted through and a tighter fit could make the valve clearance to small causing undue friction there.

I think I would use one of the Lock-tights available to keep the guide in place. The do some good stuff over there. That seems like it would be a cheaper bit of prevention than the o-rings.
Click to expand...
Chev, As you said guide bore closure after pressing into .002" inerference fit. is expected to be .005-.001" per several sites. Regarding upward movement of guide. An aircraft site is very good. Stuck valves cause all kinds of valve train problems including mis located pushrods. ( I'm holding back my story on the swallowed pushrod ) Stuck valves cause misfire. The airacraft engine guys call it morning sickness and do not fly until fixed. My intek used to miss a lot before I cooled it. I also hear my neighbor's Kohler missing a lot. One site also talked about tight valve guide seals starving oil. On the other hand excess oil in worn guides causes coke buidup and can stick valves. I wonder if an intermittent sticking valve help push the guide? Try tpub.com and avweb.com if bored sometime. Motoman


#69

M

motoman

Black Bart said:
SHOULD is the operative word here but in Motorman's case it did not drop much.
I believe that is because he is just recirculating the hot air under the hood.

Look at the coolers installed on cars and trucks they are behind the grill where they get a lot of fresh air forced through them.
About the only way that setup will help is if he takes the hood off.
Click to expand...

Bart, When the hood is raised, fan run for 5 min, the temp drops 70-80degrees F. I have not let it run on like that to see how low it goes. Once the shrouding and fan mount is improved I'll have to add a thermostat to bring it up to temp. ( much drop) Motoman


#70

R

robert

reddragon, it appears that he is using a 'bead' type thermo couple on the Fluke (I have the same instrument-rather I have the same model instrument), and from the pics it would be very easy to insert the tcouple into either the hydro/engine oil dipstick tube ?? If this was the protocol, I would have a very high degree of confidence in the displayed data.
Mine is in the van somewhere, I will measure the length of the thermocouple-I should know the length-gotta be at least 18".

Is your thought the displayed temps are low, high or about right?


#71

M

motoman

Heat and Oil: Sifting the "data"

Trying to undertand what happens to air cooled tractors looks like building a case of circumstantial evidence. Here's a self dialog. Chime in people, In no particular order. It is said...
A. Oil breakdown is around 225F.AA. What is oil breakdown? B. At around 300F sludge forms.BB.Not found here ,2 teardowns 300F. C. At viscosity breakdown oil pressure drops dramatically CC. Not found here,always 35-40PSI hawkeye. D.Beede oil gauge goes to 320F Others too.DD.Gauge engineers know something. E.Kohler not worried below 300F . EE why? F.Engineering table (SAE related 1999) category "flash,"defined oil bcomes vapor and ignites. Table 10W-30 lowest flash by mfg 390F. FF.Doomsday. G.Fuel dragster crew "worried" at 340F. GG. Armageddon. H.Pan temp
230F is tops HH. Then oil is at about 210F? I.Recommended oil temp by mfgrs Kawasaki 210F BMW bike 225F Harley 240F Suzuki 248F Vespa 195F Intek silence II Hmmmmm.

Reread "Hot rides" above. Don't die with a secret, people. Let' hear it. Motoman


#72

reddragon

reddragon

robert said:
reddragon, it appears that he is using a 'bead' type thermo couple on the Fluke (I have the same instrument-rather I have the same model instrument), and from the pics it would be very easy to insert the tcouple into either the hydro/engine oil dipstick tube ?? If this was the protocol, I would have a very high degree of confidence in the displayed data.
Mine is in the van somewhere, I will measure the length of the thermocouple-I should know the length-gotta be at least 18".

Is your thought the displayed temps are low, high or about right?
Click to expand...

well....the immersion temps are the real data there.. my first question..... is the immersion reading done after the engine is shut off?....all engines have sudden spike in temp after shut off but then cool quickly....it would be best if the test was taken while the engine was running.....i think i want one of those testers :thumbsup:


#73

M

motoman

Latest heat data with cooling fix

Today I hauled 3 trailer loads of branches ,deck on , 81F ambient. The Beede gauge stable at 220F, no fan. Before shutdown I ran the fan beyond the usual 5 min it takes to dump 3 baskets of grass to see how low it can go. It stablilized at 165F after about 10 min. That 55F drop to potentially be added to "hot" drop 70F (300F down to 230F). This 125F drop with this prototype fix only blowing hard accross the bottom 25% of the cooler. Motoman :wink:


#74

B

benski

Wow! It's working!:biggrin: I'll have to take a guess here and say the lower limit of our oil temp. should be about 180*F. Anyone else out there have some thoughts?

By the way, motoman, I took a temperature reading on the oil filter on my cub cadet 2164 with the commercial duty 18hp Briggs in it yesterday after 1/2 an hour of mowing , ambient air temp 67*F, and it was 254*F. That's with synthetic lube in it. My test donkey is still awaiting some repairs.:ashamed::biggrin: when I get it going I'll do a little more "testing" between synthetic and conventional oil temps, as unscientific as I might be.:laughing:


#75

M

motoman

benski said:
Wow! It's working!:biggrin: I'll have to take a guess here and say the lower limit of our oil temp. should be about 180*F. Anyone else out there have some thoughts?

By the way, motoman, I took a temperature reading on the oil filter on my cub cadet 2164 with the commercial duty 18hp Briggs in it yesterday after 1/2 an hour of mowing , ambient air temp 67*F, and it was 254*F. That's with synthetic lube in it. My test donkey is still awaiting some repairs.:ashamed::biggrin: when I get it going I'll do a little more "testing" between synthetic and conventional oil temps, as unscientific as I might be.:laughing:
Click to expand...

Benski, jolly good. I have read repeatedly sumps need 180F to drive off moisture. If there's anything to one outside blog , pans run 20 degrees hotter than oil. Another good VW site insists most oil gauges are about 40 degrees low in their mid range. I know the Beede I have is not linear. Robert and Red Dragon seem to using very acccurate VOM related heat probe. Maybe we can compare gauge vs thermocouple. That VW site showed a dipstick heat sensor widely used but not rugged. Motoman


#76

demhustler

demhustler

when Dixie Chopper start putting oil coolers on their mower engines - Kohler denied its necessity
now - its on all their bigger engines (like one on pict)
location, restriction of air flow and clogging-in of this small radiators (oil, dust, mud and degrees magnet (collector) - could be questionable, but not it's usefulness

3107d1313857340-my-fix-overheating-tractor-oilcooler1-jpg

Attachments





#77

M

Mower manic

demhustler said:
when Dixie Chopper start putting oil coolers on their mower engines - Kohler denied its necessity
now - its on all their bigger engines (like one on pict)
location, restriction of air flow and clogging-in of this small radiators (oil, dust, mud and degrees magnet (collector) - could be questionable, but not it's usefulness

3107d1313857340-my-fix-overheating-tractor-oilcooler1-jpg
Click to expand...

If you have ever heard the Kohler engine on a Dixie Chopper run you'll know right away it's tuned for performance. A lot louder than the same engine on your average mom and pop mower. This generates considerbly more heat that can shorten engine life.
Oh it's useful, makes a lot of sense, that and regular oil changes are a must for a suffcient service life.


#78

H

ha4145

Hi i have made many modificatons or "improvements" to my mtd mower including rear lights and ang an electrical tow bar for side lights on a trailer i was thinking about pressure gadges but wasent sure how could you send me the info on how to do it and some photos (If you can)
thanks


#79

R

robert

Somewhere I read that Kohler says if you are under 300*f you are doing real well, when I find the link I will post it.
I cannot see the operating oil temp of any air cooled mower much under 250* during the warm weather, or even cool weather-but I am not an expert either.

As for the case of a zt mower inherently operating at lower temp because the engine is not inclosed-not so sure, a tractor engine is sort of a ducted set up, air is channeled over, around the engine, this is inherently a more efficient design than non ducted cooling, but again an expert I am not. Plus, Briggs themselves show how hostile an environment the zt engine operates in, it does get really dirty really really fast-that alone would suggest that zt temps are certainly no lower than tractor temps, and in fact, should be significantly higher.

reddragon, you raise an excellent point about thermal soak into the oil if the measurements were taken after shutdown-immediately after shutting off the engine an immersion reading would be very accurate, a few minutes after though probably would significantly skew high the reading from operating.
Good catch/call


#80

M

motoman

ha4145 said:
Hi i have made many modificatons or "improvements" to my mtd mower including rear lights and ang an electrical tow bar for side lights on a trailer i was thinking about pressure gadges but wasent sure how could you send me the info on how to do it and some photos (If you can)
thanks
Click to expand...
HA I'm not familiar with your make. The oil pressure is taken at or near the oill filter usually. If you read one of the installation tips above you will see I have had bad luck with so called "mechanical" type gauges which uses a small dia. tube of oil from engine to actuate the gauge indicatior. These are cheap to buy. The other type I'm familiar with is the electric . Look at pics on the "fix" and see a bulky gold colored can with one wire, the sender. These are harder to locate on little tractor engines,but better (no oil leaks). Both type senders usually need what we call 1/8 NPT (Tap) threaded port. Your tractor should have one (?Plugged) Go to motorcycle or car acces shop there.


#81

H

ha4145

Thanks:smile:


#82

M

motoman

Mr Intek's bad diet

So this owner of the "TLC Cafe" looks up one day and sees his tractor, Mr. Intek," sitting at a table.
"Good to see you Mr. Intek. Watching your diet now that you've recovered from that fast food problem?" " Yup", says tractor, " the cam and guide did not agree with me." "What would you like?" says owner. "Got any pushrod?" says tractor. "NO, you know I don't serve that here." says owner. "Never mind," says tractor . "I'll help myself."

Later owner removes partly digested pushrod from tractor's sump.

Attachments

















#83

reddragon

reddragon

the guide worked itself out like that?


#84

twall

twall

Re: Let's change the title rather than start a new thread....

motoman said:
So this owner of the "TLC Cafe" looks up one day and sees his tractor, Mr. Intek," sitting at a table.
"Good to see you Mr. Intek. Watching your diet now that you've recovered from that fast food problem?" " Yup", says tractor, " the cam and guide did not agree with me." "What would you like?" says owner. "Got any pushrod?" says tractor. "NO, you know I don't serve that here." says owner. "Never mind," says tractor . "I'll help myself."

Later owner removes partly digested pushrod from tractor's sump.
Click to expand...

Um, are you from Washington - as in DC? Cause you make just as much sense as a politician........:biggrin: JK, before you huff and puff.

If you're going to change the title of the thread in your response, perhaps you should start another thread? Just a suggestion.

So, this Kohler walks into a bar...........


#85

RobertBrown

RobertBrown

Re: Let's change the title rather than start a new thread....

twall said:
Um, are you from Washington - as in DC? Cause you make just as much sense as a politician........:biggrin: JK, before you huff and puff.

If you're going to change the title of the thread in your response, perhaps you should start your own thread? Just a suggestion.

So, this Kohler walks into a bar...........
Click to expand...


Was that as funny as it seemed to be, cause it seemed really funny to me....but I lost track somewhere along the line.....anyway these 2 pushrods walk into a bar....a gay bar you ask?


#86

twall

twall

Re: Let's change the title rather than start a new thread....

RobertBrown said:
Was that as funny as it seemed to be, cause it seemed really funny to me....but I lost track somewhere along the line.....anyway these 2 pushrods walk into a bar....a gay bar you ask?
Click to expand...

Funny? Yup. Pure sarcasm........


#87

RobertBrown

RobertBrown

reddragon said:
the guide worked itself out like that?
Click to expand...

yea..... I think thats what started this whole thing. The guide moved and motoman thinks it's because of high engine/oil temperature.
so he wants to lower the operating temperature.
It was 2 separate threads and it's hard to follow...but the pictures and the techniques are very interesting


#88

twall

twall

I think he got his entire postcount from this one thread.....:laughing:


#89

M

motoman

reddragon said:
the guide worked itself out like that?
Click to expand...

O yeah, over enough time to slowy grind the cam profile into a perfect circle. The valve could not open as it competed with the cam lobe. I will reveal the "Sherlock" take on this later.


#90

M

motoman

Unlike politicians I try to understand, try to help, no spin, no pork , no 18 year old pages...darn)

The driving force? I am still mad I spent $2500 on my rig. That's more than my car was worth. Also I believe tools should last and give value (no offense to you who seem to genuinely love your tractors) . What prepared me for this? I owned British bikes and cars.


#91

RobertBrown

RobertBrown

motoman said:
Unlike politicians I try to understand, try to help, no spin, no pork , no 18 year old pages...darn)

The driving force? I am still mad I spent $2500 on my rig. That's more than my car was worth. Also I believe tools should last and give value (no offense to you who seem to genuinely love your tractors) . What prepared me for this? I owned British bikes and cars.
Click to expand...

You know why the Brits don't make computers?


#92

reddragon

reddragon

Motoman's obviously afflicted with Moweritis with elements of Tinkeritis.:laughing:....so "Robert brown".....why don't Brit's make computers?:licking:


#93

RobertBrown

RobertBrown

reddragon said:
Motoman's obviously afflicted with Moweritis with elements of Tinkeritis.:laughing:....so "Robert brown".....why don't Brit's make computers?:licking:
Click to expand...

Cause they couldn't figure out how to make them leak oil........


#94

reddragon

reddragon

Austin Healy....Rover...Morris...MG....hhmm....i think your right! :laughing:


#95

RobertBrown

RobertBrown

reddragon said:
Austin Healy....Rover...Morris...MG....hhmm....i think your right! :laughing:
Click to expand...

British Leyland .......it even sounds greasy. Oh they made tractors too,

Attachments





#96

M

motoman

reddragon said:
Austin Healy....Rover...Morris...MG....hhmm....i think your right! :laughing:
Click to expand...
No, the truth is BSA, Triumph, Lotus, English Ford. The Lotus is most like the tractor except I loved it


#97

reddragon

reddragon

how could i forget Leyland ?.. [didnt know they made tractors]....i think the electrical systems came pre rusted from the factory :laughing:


#98

M

motoman

reddragon said:
how could i forget Leyland ?.. [didnt know they made tractors]....i think the electrical systems came pre rusted from the factory :laughing:
Click to expand...

The saying is electrics by Lucas, prince of darkness and (let me add:smoke).


#99

B

benski

It is off topic, but I'll reiterate the oft-told joke about "why do Brits drink warm beer?"
Ans. Because they have Lucas refrigerators.:wink::biggrin:
We'll continue the sleuthing.


#100

M

motoman

Sherlock's amateur failure analysis

Aluminum used in tractor heads is cast and heat treated around 400F to achieve hardness. Valve guide bores machined for .002" interference fit with guide. Guide unloads some of the valve heat into head. Overheated heads are softened, lose some grip on guide. Meanwhile valve stem dia may grow reducing clearance in guide. Upward force may be exerted by vave stem sticking. During repeated overtemp cycles (300F oil. 400F+ head) the guide starts moving. Less guide in head to unload heat. Guide may not guide as well so stem cocks and helps push. Finally lifter-rocker-valve cannot stay together. Pushrod drops out.

Shops may test incoming heads for hardness and reject soft Al. B&S does not sell replacement guides,only heads. These problems are widespread. Intake side also has drop out caused by deposit buildup on stems. motoman


#101

M

motoman

Sherlock's amateur failure analysis

As a minimum put an oil temp ga on the a/c tractor. The bagger system may hurt. There is back pressure load as blades try to fill baskets. I have noticed accelerated oil temps when 3 bskts full. Wt of damp grass in early summer (120 lbs?) is significant. Neighbor uses sweeper system. possibly safer. Avoiding grade mowing (?) is helpful. Mr Intek was on grade when he belched and spat his pushrod into the sump. If ga reaches 270F pull over into shade, see if temp can stabilize. Shutting off while overheated may encourage deposits on intake valves especially. My experience is "runaway" temp climb after 230F. I have opened Mr. Intek twice for heat related repairs and not seen what looked like lubrication problems. Misses, belches and backfires may be warning signs of valvetrain distress. Take your tractor's temp.


#102

M

motoman

demhustler said:
when Dixie Chopper start putting oil coolers on their mower engines - Kohler denied its necessity
now - its on all their bigger engines (like one on pict)
location, restriction of air flow and clogging-in of this small radiators (oil, dust, mud and degrees magnet (collector) - could be questionable, but not it's usefulness

3107d1313857340-my-fix-overheating-tractor-oilcooler1-jpg
Click to expand...
demhustler, Thanks for the BP. How big is the cooler? Do you know typ operating oil temp? Where is it mounted?
Motoman


#103

M

motoman

reddragon said:
Motoman's obviously afflicted with Moweritis with elements of Tinkeritis.:laughing:....so "Robert brown".....why don't Brit's make computers?:licking:
Click to expand...

reddragon, You're right . Yesterday I was diagnosed with acute tinkeritis at the MOWDECK clinic. There is no cure, but most people can lead a meaningful life. I got an Rx , but Sears pharmacy did not have clue. So I'm in physical therapy building the "crossflow tunnel." Think it will help? Motoman


#104

reddragon

reddragon

there is no CURE!....you can only learn to manage it:biggrin:


#105

B

benski

Re post #103; You weren't ordering lawnmower parts at the Sears pharmacy, were you?:eek::laughing::biggrin:


#106

M

motoman

benski said:
Re post #103; You weren't ordering lawnmower parts at the Sears pharmacy, were you?:eek::laughing::biggrin:
Click to expand...

I tried to order the over heat tranquilizer and the oil temp probe shown in the Intek manual. They never heard of 'em.


#107

B

benski

Doctor/analyst type in lab coat: "Yes, yes, I see, uh huh..":biggrin:


#108

M

motoman

The cross-flow tunnel is installed. Test drive 86F ambient, no bagger system. Grass out of up spout. Mowed dry green light grass and weeds. Some grade mowing. Oil gauge temp climbed to 230F. Turned on fan. Temp stable at 230F several minutes, them dropped to about 225F and held for rest of mowing (15min). Before tunnel temp was not reduced when fan was run during mow.
Tunnel runs side panel to side panel , 7" dia inlet outlet. Possible more to come by slimming down the fan mount which is currently blocking some air in. Before shutdown ran fast idle 5 min. hood down. Temp dropped to about 205F and stable. (Recall the "old" cool down was with the hood raised) Motoman


#109

reddragon

reddragon

sounds good:thumbsup:......how bout pictures?


#110

M

motoman

reddragon said:
sounds good:thumbsup:......how bout pictures?
Click to expand...

hmmm...well ok since you asked...:rolleyes:


#111

B

Black Bart

motoman said:
The cross-flow tunnel is installed. Test drive 86F ambient, no bagger system. Grass out of up spout. Mowed dry green light grass and weeds. Some grade mowing. Oil gauge temp climbed to 230F. Turned on fan. Temp stable at 230F several minutes, them dropped to about 225F and held for rest of mowing (15min). Before tunnel temp was not reduced when fan was run during mow.
Tunnel runs side panel to side panel , 7" dia inlet outlet. Possible more to come by slimming down the fan mount which is currently blocking some air in. Before shutdown ran fast idle 5 min. hood down. Temp dropped to about 205F and stable. (Recall the "old" cool down was with the hood raised) Motoman
Click to expand...

Yep I can see how it would be better.:thumbsup:


#112

R

robert

I'm confused but pictures will help I'm sure.


#113

M

motoman

Before installation notes a word on TRACTOR. In the old days I could talk and say anything about TRACTOR, but recently he's almost like a changed machine. No trash talk about him is allowed-he gets really gnarly and aggressive. Not long ago I noticed what appeared to be baby teeth in his grille.
Anyway, he demands R-E-S-P-E-C-T, and I give it.

The BAT tray comes out easily (2 bolts and pry). I took 1 1/8" off the front and moved the BAT back for tunnel clearance. The tunnel is molded by hand around the Intek. Pop rivet AL flashing collars on both ends. The tunnel is feather lite and comes out with 2 screws. The 7" dia ports are cut with hand shears. More trimming of the fan shroud. You will not be sucked into the intake or blown over by the exhaust. Exotic materials by Home Depot. Motoman

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#114

reddragon

reddragon

a little crazy!....i love the teeth!:laughing:[dont turn your back on him!]....that cross vent gets right to the point and does what it needs to....now maybe some mesh screen to cover the holes and your good to go dude!:thumbsup:..........p.s. how bout some crazy eyeballs?


#115

reddragon

reddragon

i was also thinking....can you put a smaller fan on that would match the exit hole better?....im sure it wont hurt efficiency :smile:.........good job man!


#116

M

motoman

reddragon said:
i was also thinking....can you put a smaller fan on that would match the exit hole better?....im sure it wont hurt efficiency :smile:.........good job man!
Click to expand...

I recently saw a fan- cooler combo on line called "Northern Hurricaine" I think. It was really compact. I would look at it if I were doing this again. ($150). Regarding efficiency... I am struck at how little airflow can be detected by reaching into the tunnel. A lighted match will flicker at the exhaust port end, and will finally go out right up next to the cooler fins (fan on). This seemingly small flow is enough to draw heat out of the oil. As noted presiously only about 25% of the cooler catches fan air.


#117

M

motoman

In case anyone is curious as of today the 'oil-cooler' tractor iis holding about 270F under worst case conditions here i.e., 80 F , on grade, 3 baskets full of damp grass, blades cutting. Fan is turned on once Bedee oil temp gauge indicates 240F. As baskets are dumped , engine idling, with fan on and hood down, temp drops below 240F ready for next mowing cycle. At about half way (basket content) temp climbs again and fan is used.


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