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Hello everyone. I joined this forum last month and have enjoyed reading all the posts and comments, particularly on deciding what make and model to choose when buying a new lawn tractor. I bought a new Hustler 52-inch Raptor last year with a kawasaki 23 HP engine. No problems. The biggest factor for me in buying it was the engine. There are dozens of of manufactuers to choose from, all running the same engines from 4 or 5 manufactures. What irks me is that some companies, who once had a respected brand name, are now installing cheap, inferior engines in their residential models. I suppose that is a trend nowadays in other industries as well. To my knowledge, there are currently no manufactuers in the U.S. who build both the engines and the machines they power. Every summer, I see the old man down the street riding his 60's era Yamaha. He knew what he was doing when he bought it.

MTD has control of an engine factory in China that builds engines for some of their products such as Cub Cadet and Troybilt, as well as their cheaper box store products.

Briggs and Stratton owns Simplicity, which also includes Snapper, and Ferris.

Murray too.

Murray is an oddball though. Briggs owns Murray, but they are manufactured by MTD and Husqvarna, but are required to use Briggs engines.

ziti said:

Hello everyone. I joined this forum last month and have enjoyed reading all the posts and comments, particularly on deciding what make and model to choose when buying a new lawn tractor. I bought a new Hustler 52-inch Raptor last year with a kawasaki 23 HP engine. No problems. The biggest factor for me in buying it was the engine. There are dozens of of manufactuers to choose from, all running the same engines from 4 or 5 manufactures. What irks me is that some companies, who once had a respected brand name, are now installing cheap, inferior engines in their residential models. I suppose that is a trend nowadays in other industries as well. To my knowledge, there are currently no manufactuers in the U.S. who build both the engines and the machines they power. Every summer, I see the old man down the street riding his 60's era Yamaha. He knew what he was doing when he bought it.

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Again a sign of rampant consumerism and the unrealisic demand of the modern consummer that every thing they want has to be cheaper and magically get cheaper every year.
Stop for a few seconds and imagne jus how much work goes into manking an engine, it aint cheap.
The only real difference beteen a motorcycle engine & a mower engine is a gearbox & clutch.
Yet we will happily pay $ 20,000 for the imige of our wild & rebellious self sitting on top of a Harley which never gets ridden but quib at paying a reasonable price for an engine to go into our mowers that we use every week.
Mower companies do not like fitting imported engine into their mowers. It adds a lot problems .
They have no choice becaue you will go out and buy the cheapest mower in the class.
The engine is nearly 1/2 the price of making the mower so we get what we deserive for our cheapness, foreign made engine with no parts back up or support and once out of warantee, tough luck.

Great discussion. ziti, where are the Kawasakis made?

Bert, "...the only difference..." I know you did not think this one through or only at a superficial level. If you are saying the lawn mower engine is like a 1920 motorcycle engine...ok. How long will a Briggs engine last at 5000, 7000, 12000 rpm?

ILENGINE said:

Murray is an oddball though. Briggs owns Murray, but they are manufactured by MTD and Husqvarna, but are required to use Briggs engines.

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I didnt realise Murray were using mtd for ride ons now.
I sell the lawnflite range but come with a loncin and not a briggs.
still like the original murray range.
Easy to work on etc.

bertsmobile1 said:

Again a sign of rampant consumerism and the unrealisic demand of the modern consummer that every thing they want has to be cheaper and magically get cheaper every year.
Stop for a few seconds and imagne jus how much work goes into manking an engine, it aint cheap.
The only real difference beteen a motorcycle engine & a mower engine is a gearbox & clutch.
Yet we will happily pay $ 20,000 for the imige of our wild & rebellious self sitting on top of a Harley which never gets ridden but quib at paying a reasonable price for an engine to go into our mowers that we use every week.
Mower companies do not like fitting imported engine into their mowers. It adds a lot problems .
They have no choice becaue you will go out and buy the cheapest mower in the class.
The engine is nearly 1/2 the price of making the mower so we get what we deserive for our cheapness, foreign made engine with no parts back up or support and once out of warantee, tough luck.

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So you are saying the engine in my Harley is nothing more then a lawn mower engine?? I don't think, so not even close. Mine motorcycle engine was made by Harley Davidson and my mower engine was made by Kohler. Maybe your motorcycle has a lawn mower engine in it but not mine. When you get down to the facts all engines work on the same principle from day one but they aren't all alike. Its like saying a Ford model T engine is the same as a 2016 Mustang engine, not even close.

probably not the best comparrison but I have done a few Briggs motors for racers that will happily do 7000 rpm.
Once you take the counter weight off and balance the crank, there is not all that much difference.
Latter engines will toss the piston if you don't fit a stronger rod however the earlier side bangers will usually take 7000.

Thanks Motoman. Kawasaki has an assembly plant in Missouri where they build FS, FR, and FX series engines. I've never owned a Kawasaki engine before in any machine so I thought I'd give it a try. Just a side note here and being an average homeowner with a one acre plus yard to mow, the best engine for my money in a rider is in my old 89' Honda 3011H which I still use.

bertsmobile1 said:

probably not the best comparrison but I have done a few Briggs motors for racers that will happily do 7000 rpm.
Once you take the counter weight off and balance the crank, there is not all that much difference.
Latter engines will toss the piston if you don't fit a stronger rod however the earlier side bangers will usually take 7000.

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I have a friend who races go carts and gets two racing seasons out of a Chinese Harbor Freight engine. All he dose is remove the governor. He never wins but has a lot of fun without spending big money. Maybe the person using the Briggs engine wins???

ziti said:

Thanks Motoman. Kawasaki has an assembly plant in Missouri where they build FS, FR, and FX series engines. I've never owned a Kawasaki engine before in any machine so I thought I'd give it a try. Just a side note here and being an average homeowner with a one acre plus yard to mow, the best engine for my money in a rider is in my old 89' Honda 3011H which I still use.

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And that was the problem .
Most owners have no idea how to evaluate engines other than by the Hp on the stickers.
They only found out just how good the Honda engines were 10 years after they bought the mower.
So most buy whatever is cheaper so the Honda effectivly became too expensive in the eyes of the uneducated public and manufactureres stopped fitted them.

reynoldston said:

I have a friend who races go carts and gets two racing seasons out of a Chinese Harbor Freight engine. All he dose is remove the governor. He never wins but has a lot of fun without spending big money. Maybe the person using the Briggs engine wins???

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I was really trying to draw comparisions between the entire industries rather than actual physical produsts.
When any consummer durable item gets released it is a luxuary item, whith a high price & good profit margin.
Then because every one wants one someone makes a cheaper one so the less wealthy can have one too.
It is not as good as the one the rich bloke buys but it does the job
They then get cheaper & cheaper till the profit margin is almost nothing so the makers have to go high volume or go broke.
Around this time they shift from being an optional purchase to a necessity in the eyes of the comsummer who demands they get cheaper still so they get progressively cheaper & cheaper thill they become throw away disposable items rather than consummer durable items.
Ride ons have been at this bottom of the barrel level for a long time and every year they get worse but the makes just slap in a bigger motor & no one seem to care.

reynoldston said:

I have a friend who races go carts and gets two racing seasons out of a Chinese Harbor Freight engine. All he dose is remove the governor. He never wins but has a lot of fun without spending big money. Maybe the person using the Briggs engine wins???

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Yep you can have lots of fun on the cheap or you can blow several thousand just to feed your own insecure ego.
I make a B &S competative for around a grand.
A mate makes them winners for around four grand and he has a que of blokes on his waiting list.

Believe it or not you can get forged Corrillio rods in several oversizes, high flow low pressure oil pumps, Wiso pistons , fly wheels that replace the ecentric counterbalance and full forged cranks that run high speed needle /ball combination bearings.

I've always thought of my Intek 24 as a detuned Harley, complete with the potato-potato-potato shaking which loosens so much hardware. And , as said before,( I shouldn't) , the thing keeps running. I think it knows I'm looking for an excuse to go Kaw.

Thanks for all your comments on this thread. Not to compare apples to oranges, but I thought this would be of interest. Ever since I saw the 1988 movie Grand Prix starring James Garner, I've been a Formula One racing enthusiast. Riding lawn mowers and F1 have some things in common. Winners of F1 championships fall into 2 categories. Drivers and Constructors. These cars are built to a set of specifications that always changing. In the last 15 or 20 years, independents have dropped out due to high costs and are now dominated by car manufacturers. There are now something like 20 or so teams that qualify for F1 racing. They either build their own chassis or have it built by an independant contractor. Here's what I'm getting at. Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, manufacture both the chassis and the engine in their cars. Honda dropped out of building F1 engines in 09', but came back in 15' supplying engines for Mclaren. Any company that can design and build an engine thats restricted to a turbocharged 1.6 liter 4-stroke 600 HP V-6 and will power a chassis that will reach 100MPH in under 2 seconds has got my respect.

ziti, I would continue this discussion with you, but better on "the front porch" or other section of this forum. Seems we would have similar interests. The pros especially get cranky to, and indifferent with, most off -subjects I have mentioned before. Bert has a lot of racing knowledge, but may not be interested. motoman

Being on the repair side of lawn mower engines Kawasaki would be one of my last choices of engines. Not that they are any worst or any better, I find the replacement parts for repairs are way overpriced. But also you know what you are going to buy so this really doesn't mean anything.

[Q UOTE=reynoldston;227223]Being on the repair side of lawn mower engines Kawasaki would be one of my last choices of engines. Not that they are any worst or any better, I find the replacement parts for repairs are way overpriced. But also you know what you are going to buy so this really doesn't mean anything.[/QUOTE]

No, I am just trying to find the most reliable ac unit I can. Things change and despite Kaw, like Honda, has a good image in motorcycles , it is a long way to the US factories and quality control. Also hoping parts would not be an issue since even with the Intek I have bought nothing after the head assembly years ago. So maybe it is a toss up except for Kohler which still seems to get a bad rap here. LIke I said elsewhere, I did hear the Kaws have pushed guides etc. even in the commercial units.

Re: Manufacturers vs. Engine Manufactuer

motoman said:

[Q UOTE=reynoldston;227223]Being on the repair side of lawn mower engines Kawasaki would be one of my last choices of engines. Not that they are any worst or any better, I find the replacement parts for repairs are way overpriced. But also you know what you are going to buy so this really doesn't mean anything.

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No, I am just trying to find the most reliable ac unit I can. Things change and despite Kaw, like Honda, has a good image in motorcycles , it is a long way to the US factories and quality control. Also hoping parts would not be an issue since even with the Intek I have bought nothing after the head assembly years ago. So maybe it is a toss up except for Kohler which still seems to get a bad rap here. LIke I said elsewhere, I did hear the Kaws have pushed guides etc. even in the commercial units.[/QUOTE]

I own two Hondas, one Suzuki and the Harley all good bikes . I will stay out of the engine brand war because I think they all have good and bad sides. I do get a lot of mowers in my shop with the Kawasaki engines and the price of parts seem higher, not that any OEM parts are cheap on any engine. I really believe when a person buys a new mower very few look at the engine brand and I would be the same way. My Ferris has a Kohler engine but as I understand you can't buy a Kohler engine in a Ferris anymore.

reynoldston said:

I have a friend who races go carts and gets two racing seasons out of a Chinese Harbor Freight engine. All he dose is remove the governor. He never wins but has a lot of fun without spending big money. Maybe the person using the Briggs engine wins???

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At the local track here they have a class that you can only run the harbor freight engine. They are good engines.

I built a racing mower with a Briggs 12.5 with a Briggs rpm kit on it. I never won but was fun.

Re: Manufacturers vs. Engine Manufactuer

/QUOTE] I really believe when a person buys a new mower very few look at the engine brand and I would be the same way. My Ferris has a Kohler engine but as I understand you can't buy a Kohler engine in a Ferris anymore.[/QUOTE]

I believe buyers do buy on engines more than anything else as its the only thing they remember on on a mower as the stickers fall off.

The phone calls come in saying iv got a briggs and stratton lawnmower or a honda lawnmower (engine powered).

Now a tractors different as its usually under the bonnet and they cant see it.

To get back to the point I did not make as well as I could have.
From the factory's point of view they both have to make a crankcase which has to be cast and machines,
They both have to make a crankshaft to take 2 con rods
They both have to cast a pair of barels out of alloy and insert an iron linner into each barrel which must be bored to a precise size
The both have to make a camshaft
They both have to make an oil pump
They both have to cast heads , fit valve seats, valve guides valves , springs & rockers.
So from a manufacturers perspective their is very little cost diffrence between a mower engine and a motorcycle engine.
In the early days a lot of motorcycle engine makers sold a slightly modified version of their motorcycle engine as a stationary engine
Same tooling same precision, detachable barrels add a small extra cost to your HD but not that much extra cost.
I would seriously doubt if the cost difference in manufacture of the two was much more than around 10% ( gearbox & clutch excluded )
However the mower company would be running at a gross profit margin in the teens while the motorcycle engine sells for so much the gross profit would be around 50%-75% mark.
And ths is because Joe Public will happily pay $ 10,000 for and engine for their bikes while they will quib at paying $ 1,000 for their mower engines,
So a small engine maker can not survive thus the lack of makers.

The same applies to the entire mower.
Not enough of Joe Public will pay the extra to get a high quality mower that will last 10 to 20 years and give good reliable service .
So that end of the market is very small and the factory has to be able to survive on a fairly small volume.
Honda is a perfect example excellent mowers but could not sell enough to remain viable so they exited the market
They have done the same with engines faced with the option of downgrading their engines so they could be sold at a price Joe Public will pay or exiting the market, they got out.
If the public will only pay for trash then let them buy trash.
Mower companies have to order engines for next season, this season so they have to estimate their sales fairly well or they get stuck with thousands of mowers that end up being sold at a loss to get rid of them.
If you are looking at two almost identical moweres, most people will end up buying the cheapest, even if it is only a few dollars difference.
All those engines being sold off really cheaply by the surplus sales companies are the result of this and either the mower or engine makers reducing their losses and reducing your losses dose not actually make you any money

bertsmobile1 said:

To get back to the point I did not make as well as I could have.
From the factory's point of view they both have to make a crankcase which has to be cast and machines,
They both have to make a crankshaft to take 2 con rods
They both have to cast a pair of barels out of alloy and insert an iron linner into each barrel which must be bored to a precise size
The both have to make a camshaft
They both have to make an oil pump
They both have to cast heads , fit valve seats, valve guides valves , springs & rockers.
So from a manufacturers perspective their is very little cost diffrence between a mower engine and a motorcycle engine.
In the early days a lot of motorcycle engine makers sold a slightly modified version of their motorcycle engine as a stationary engine
Same tooling same precision, detachable barrels add a small extra cost to your HD but not that much extra cost.
I would seriously doubt if the cost difference in manufacture of the two was much more than around 10% ( gearbox & clutch excluded )
However the mower company would be running at a gross profit margin in the teens while the motorcycle engine sells for so much the gross profit would be around 50%-75% mark.
And ths is because Joe Public will happily pay $ 10,000 for and engine for their bikes while they will quib at paying $ 1,000 for their mower engines,
So a small engine maker can not survive thus the lack of makers.

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$10,000 for an engine ?
A lot of bikes don't even cost that much.
I bought my twin cylinder, liguid cooled street bike brand new for under $7,000.

DK35vince said:

$10,000 for an engine ?
A lot of bikes don't even cost that much.
I bought my twin cylinder, liguid cooled street bike brand new for under $7,000.

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My paid considerably more for my zero turn than my street bike cost new.

ILENGINE said:

Murray is an oddball though. Briggs owns Murray, but they are manufactured by MTD and Husqvarna, but are required to use Briggs engines.

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OK so as I am trying to catch up on mower histories did Briggs buy Murray complete or just the brand name Murray ?

COMPANY NEWS; BRIGGS & STRATTON BUYS MURRAY, MAKER OF LAWN MOWERS
Published: February 2, 2005

The Briggs & Stratton Corporation, the world's biggest maker of gasoline-powered engines used in lawn and garden equipment, won a judge's approval to buy almost all of the assets of Murray, a bankrupt lawn mower maker, for $125 million. Judge Marian F. Harrison of United States Bankruptcy Court approved the sale on Monday at a hearing in Nashville, according to Murray's lawyer, Paul G. Jennings. Objections to the sale by Murray customers were resolved during the proceeding, Mr. Jennings said. The closely held Murray, based in Brentwood, Tenn., has about 1,400 employees and makes lawn mowers, snow blowers, go-carts and hand-held power equipment like hedge trimmers. Briggs & Stratton is based in Wauwatosa, Wis.

All well and good but if Murray brand mowers are being made by MTD are Briggs making complete mowers and if so under what brand names ?

I am a little more than curious as Briggs also made a hostile take over of our larest mower company , Victa who had defaulted on payments owed to Briggs which were secured by shares.
Under the Victa name they still sell the locally assembled 18" walk behinds however the self propelled all seem to be MTD's ( rebadged ) as is a new lightweight 16" mower.
They sell horrid ride ons under the Victa name ex China which appear to be bad copies of Stiga tornados .

Rover another local manufacturer, now assembler is owned by MTD but their walk behinds and ride ons seem mainly to be rebadged World Lawn.

Prior to Murray going down, Victa sold rebadged Murray ride ons.

So it all gets a bit confusing as to who is making what for whome.

Hello again. I've enjoyed reading all of your comments on this thread, especially about the choice everybody makes when buying a lawn mower, whether it's a $300. push mower or commercial grade ride on. From my experience on this, there was was a time back in the 70's when I bought my first house and lawn mower. Back then, I'd just head to a big box store and pick one out and buy it, not caring what company made it, or the brand name on the engine. Now, 45 years later, after some costly mistakes and rip-offs on this and other purchases, I've changed my tune. Now, I'm willing to spend more on a quality product and do some research on the internet before I buy.

I guess I should be content with my big box Craftsman Intek 24 which is still running with its original belts since 2004. I probably should shut up so it doesn't hear me.