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Man I cant figure this Craftsman out!

#1

K

Kangel55

Hi I am new here looking for help because of this garden tractor. Its a 917.273020 Crafstman 20hp Kohler 46". It set over a winter and the year before that, not used but twice, got a zero turn, anyway it was my stepdads and I try to keep it going, good shape. I have replaced all switches on this more troubleshooting and fuses and when I let the clutch out it dies. The seat switch replaced too same thing. I even tried unhooking it and crossed the plug with a wire to bypass seat switch, no luck. Clutch switch replaced also, ignition switch, PTO switch, you name it, Im stumped. BTW hydrostatic tranny. Wondering if there is anymore switches. Any help out there? You would help my frustration. I just dont know what else to do. Thanks.
'


#2

reynoldston

reynoldston

You are going about this all wrong. Trouble shoot first when make the repair. It looks like you are just replacing parts in hope of finding the problem. You will find that a wiring diagram and a multi volt would be very helpful unless someone on this forum knows that magic repair that is giving you this problem.


#3

EngineMan

EngineMan

Have you got a wiring diagram, if so post it to me so that I may take a look.


#4

K

Kangel55

EngineMan said:
Have you got a wiring diagram, if so post it to me so that I may take a look.
Click to expand...

I tried posting link wouldnt let me cause of only having 1 post but if you go to Sears Parts Direct and type Model 917.273020 everything for mower comes up.


#5

K

Kangel55

reynoldston said:
You are going about this all wrong. Trouble shoot first when make the repair. It looks like you are just replacing parts in hope of finding the problem. You will find that a wiring diagram and a multi volt would be very helpful unless someone on this forum knows that magic repair that is giving you this problem.
Click to expand...

Mower is like over 20 years old wouldnt hurt. Know what your saying though. No multi meter either.


#6

EngineMan

EngineMan

Kangel55 said:
I tried posting link wouldnt let me cause of only having 1 post but if you go to Sears Parts Direct and type Model 917.273020 everything for mower comes up.
Click to expand...

The wiring diagram is not showing up on that site...........

Apart from wiring, and the key switch there is only three that takes the kill to ground, (wiring diagram from 917,273664) if you can find one for yours post it up,

1 pto switch

2 clutch/brake switch

3 seat switch

and it would help you if you had a multimeter...!


#7

reynoldston

reynoldston

Kangel55 said:
Mower is like over 20 years old wouldnt hurt. Know what your saying though. No multi meter either.
Click to expand...

Harbor freight around 10 dollars for a multi volt meter. I know what I am saying seeing I do this for a living. Just what would you say if you brought your mower into my shop and I installed a lot of useless parts?


#8

K

Kangel55

reynoldston said:
Harbor freight around 10 dollars for a multi volt meter. I know what I am saying seeing I do this for a living. Just what would you say if you brought your mower into my shop and I installed a lot of useless parts?
Click to expand...

I understand what your saying, I never said you didnt know what your saying. Ive never owned a multi meter and no nothing about them, now you know why I didnt use one. Im just trying to get the mower going again and yes you would have spent way less money than me to fix it, you do it for a living. I used a test light to see if things had current, thats my only knowledge of wiring.


#9

B

bertsmobile1

EngineMan said:
The wiring diagram is not showing up on that site...........

Apart from wiring, and the key switch there is only three that takes the kill to ground, (wiring diagram from 917,273664) if you can find one for yours post it up,

1 pto switch

2 clutch/brake switch

3 seat switch

and it would help you if you had a multimeter...!
Click to expand...

Craftsman put their wiring diagrams in their owners hand books just before the parts list section.
So you have to download the entire owners manual.


#10

B

bertsmobile1

Kangel55 said:
I understand what your saying, I never said you didnt know what your saying. Ive never owned a multi meter and no nothing about them, now you know why I didnt use one. Im just trying to get the mower going again and yes you would have spent way less money than me to fix it, you do it for a living. I used a test light to see if things had current, thats my only knowledge of wiring.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with a test lamp, I use on on site cause multi meters tend to self destruct in my mobile tool box.
A test lamp with a probe for circuits and a lamp holder with a 24 V truck globe for testing alternators.

Now Kangel55 can you understand the wiring diagram ?
No shame if you can not, it puts you in with the 80% of the rest of the population.
But I really do not want to write 3 pages explaining the circuits if it can be avoided.


#11

K

Kangel55

Never read a schematic in my life, but I really hate to put you through that. 3pages...holy molly. I have the book showing schematic though.


#12

B

bertsmobile1

No dramas, we will just take things in little steps
Starting with making sure we are singing from the same song book.
This is the diagram I have View attachment 917.273011 wiring.pdf
Is it the same as yours ?
The next page is a loom diagram which shows you sort of where all the bits in the circuit diagram are plugged in & placed on the mower.


#13

K

Kangel55

No its different. I have model 917.273020


#14

B

bertsmobile1

If we are going to get along together you need to do as asked and check the wiring diagrams are the same not just tell me the numbers are different.
AFAIK the wiring is the same as the looms on the 2 are identical right down to the index numbers.
A lot of mowers have identical looms.
So now to work.
1) download and print out the wiring diagram I posted.As we work through the electrics you can mark off what you found, it is a lot easier that way.
2) get some crimp on spade terminal and a few feet of wire which will be used to jump the plugs the switches plug into.
3) now describe exactly what happens when you turn the key on.
What you see , feel and what you hear.


#15

dfbroxy

dfbroxy

bertsmobile1, please remind him to check for rats nests before he runs the mower and overheats the engine. It would be ashamed to pay for all those switches and then blow a headgasket or worse.


#16

B

bertsmobile1

dfbroxy said:
bertsmobile1, please remind him to check for rats nests before he runs the mower and overheats the engine. It would be ashamed to pay for all those switches and then blow a headgasket or worse.
Click to expand...

You have just done it.
It is a forum. Every one is equal on here.
No one is or should be taken at a higher level than any one else
We are just electrons wafting about in cyber space.


#17

K

Kangel55

dfbroxy said:
bertsmobile1, please remind him to check for rats nests before he runs the mower and overheats the engine. It would be ashamed to pay for all those switches and then blow a headgasket or worse.
Click to expand...

The motor runs fine.


#18

K

Kangel55

bertsmobile1 said:
If we are going to get along together you need to do as asked and check the wiring diagrams are the same not just tell me the numbers are different.
AFAIK the wiring is the same as the looms on the 2 are identical right down to the index numbers.
A lot of mowers have identical looms.
So now to work.
1) download and print out the wiring diagram I posted.As we work through the electrics you can mark off what you found, it is a lot easier that way.
2) get some crimp on spade terminal and a few feet of wire which will be used to jump the plugs the switches plug into.
3) now describe exactly what happens when you turn the key on.
What you see , feel and what you hear.
Click to expand...

I didnt just look at the numbers, I have the print in owners manual and they visually do not look the same.


#19

B

bertsmobile1

Well post it because all I could find for your mower was the loom layout in the parts book on the Craftsman web site.
And it was identical to the one that I have here for the 917.273011.


#20

K

Kangel55

20180613_105333.jpg

Here it is.


#21

EngineMan

EngineMan

The only other switch that is not on my list is the operator presence relay......so check that.


#22

K

Kangel55

EngineMan said:
The only other switch that is not on my list is the operator presence relay......so check that.
Click to expand...

I replaced that also.


#23

EngineMan

EngineMan

Yes you replaced it, but does it work.....


#24

K

Kangel55

EngineMan said:
Yes you replaced it, but does it work.....
Click to expand...

Guess if I had that multi meter it would tell me huh. BB Later.


#25

DunnDidIt

DunnDidIt

Is anyone thinking the belts are too tight, maybe the wrong size. Pulley may be seized. Just an idea


#26

K

Kangel55

No time to mess with mower today but right before dark I discovered with the key on I had no juice to plug that goes to seat switch using a test light, so now I will have to check that relay I bought, because Im not sure the relay was making any click when key turned on. Think only thing I hear is solenoid on bottom of carb bowl.


#27

B

bertsmobile1

OK now it is time to do come testing.
Pull the kill wire off the coil and test it with your lamp connected to the + terminal of the battery because as you should see the black wires are all ground wires.
They should be open circuit when you mow but go ground if you get off the seat without the brake on or get out of the seat with the PTO running.
So now you are going to check for ground at all of the switches ( both sides ) on that black wire.
Somewhere along the line one of them, or the wires that connect them are grounding out and killing the magneto.
Leave the black wire off the coil o prevent power going down that wire as it will fry the chip in the magneto.

The seat switch relay will only be energised when the engine is running as it is powered by the A2 terminal which in turn is powered from the A1 terminal that gets it's power from the alternator.
That connection & the diode between them is inside the switch & not shown ( like vital clues in a British murder mystery ).

I originally did not properly read your first post .
Thus i was thinking your mower was not starting but I see it starts properly but shuts down when you go to move
You will also need to verify the switching on the PTO switch as shown in the table below the diagram as there are a lot of identical looking switches but they switch differently


#28

K

Kangel55

bertsmobile1 said:
OK now it is time to do come testing.
Pull the kill wire off the coil and test it with your lamp connected to the + terminal of the battery because as you should see the black wires are all ground wires.
They should be open circuit when you mow but go ground if you get off the seat without the brake on or get out of the seat with the PTO running.
So now you are going to check for ground at all of the switches ( both sides ) on that black wire.
Somewhere along the line one of them, or the wires that connect them are grounding out and killing the magneto.
Leave the black wire off the coil o prevent power going down that wire as it will fry the chip in the magneto.

The seat switch relay will only be energised when the engine is running as it is powered by the A2 terminal which in turn is powered from the A1 terminal that gets it's power from the alternator.
That connection & the diode between them is inside the switch & not shown ( like vital clues in a British murder mystery ).

Could you explain a bit more simple. Kill wire off coil? Where is coil? Check wire both sides black wire?? I look at some of these switches physically and see more than one black wire I'm not understanding, very sorry.
Click to expand...


#29

EngineMan

EngineMan

Black wires goes into a switch and out of one, "test both sides" means you test all black wires from one side of the switch to the other side....


#30

K

Kangel55

EngineMan said:
Black wires goes into a switch and out of one, "test both sides" means you test all black wires from one side of the switch to the other side....
Click to expand...

So I use my test light hooked to positive and then chk black wires on all switches and if one black wire doesn't light I found the problem. What about the mention of coil?


#31

EngineMan

EngineMan

"Leave the black wire off the coil o prevent power going down that wire as it will fry the chip in the magneto."

Its a simple line to read...!


#32

K

Kangel55

EngineMan said:
"Leave the black wire off the coil o prevent power going down that wire as it will fry the chip in the magneto."

Its a simple line to read...!
Click to expand...

Yeah it is but it's also easy to read my questions. Look at the schematic in previous post and tell me where the coil is on print.


#33

EngineMan

EngineMan

Ignition Unit also know has a Coil.........I seem to going round in circles with this post.....so I will pull out and let others try and give you, the answers you are looking for.


#34

K

Kangel55

EngineMan said:
Ignition Unit also know has a Coil.........I seem to going round in circles with this post.....so I will pull out and let others try and give you, the answers you are looking for.
Click to expand...

Well thank you for your help anyway. I think the problem for me is some of the terms being used I'm not getting your guys drift.


#35

B

bertsmobile1

Sorry for the confusion.
Coil = magneto, the thing on the other end of the spark plug wire,

The whole system works by a little chip hidden inside the coil grounding out at the correct time to make a spark from the magnetism from the magnet.
IF the black wire is grounded the whole thing shuts down & the mower stops.
Down the bottom of your diagram is the connection table for the key switch.
you will see OFF = M + G.
So if grounding the M wire stops the engine and your engine is stopping then something is connecting that black wire to ground when it should not be doing it.
So you now need to find the rogue grounding point.
It could be a bare wire it could be a bad or incorrect switch.

Because you can start the engine we know that the ignition ( key ) switch is working properly, although you have not said that you can turn the engine off by turning the key off.
So from there we are looking at the other things that connect to the Black wire on the M terminal of the switch to ground

That black wire has 3 connections ( 4 if you include the key switch )
From the key switch going down the page

1) connects to the A terminal on the PTO switch

2) Connects to the brake switch

Both of these switches also connects to the seat switch relay and connect to ground via the 87A terminal connecting to the 30 terminal if no one is in the seat .

So when the PTO is turned off and the brake is down there should be nothing grounding the magneto wire , the black wire that goes to the M terminal on the key switch
We know this is correct & working properly because the engine starts.
Note you can start the engine with no one in the seat, this is so fools like me can work on a running engine.
IF you turn the PTO on , the PTO switch connects A to D which then connects M to Ground via the relay terminals 87A & 30 stopping the engine
If you release the brake the same thing happens, the unnamed terminals on the brake switch complete the circuit to the relay 87A & 30 to kill the engine

When the engine is running you should get voltage down the orange A2 wire to the seat switch then through the switch to the relay moving the contact from 87A to 87.
So now there is nothing connecting the PTO kill circuit and the brake kill circuit to ground so they can not stop the engine.

Now I hope you can follow what actually happens, they do things like this to prevent idiot morons striking a blow for freedom by unpluging the seat safety switch.

SO having gone through this for you we can do things a little differently
Flip the seat and start the engine.
Unplug the seat switch and check for 12 V at the plug, only one side should show voltage, engine running.
Now plug it back in and either sit on the seat or depress the switch with your hand and check for voltage at the other side of seat switch plug.
If you get voltage both sides with the seat switch activated, unplug it and jumper the plug.

Now go to the relay ,unplug it and check for voltage on the green wire ( terminal 85 ) .
Switch the test lamp to the + terminal on the battery and check the relay plug wires for ground, you should only have ground on the 30 terminal.
Now replace the relay and check the 87 and 87A terminals for ground by poking the probe in the back ( wire side ) of the plug.
Should have ground on 87 and no ground on 87A.
Pull the seat switch jumper, the ground should switch from 87 to 87A

To avoid confusion we will leave it here for now, do the above and get back with the results.'
Where we go from there will depend upon what you find.,


#36

K

Kangel55

Well right off the bat the mower starts with seat switch unhooked. I unplugged it and used test light on plug while motor running no light with tester either side of plug. I stopped other instructions to get opinions on above.


#37

B

bertsmobile1

IT should start with the seat switch unhooked.
The seat switch is not in the cranking circuit.

So now we know part of the problem, no voltage to the relay because there is no voltage to the seat switch.
Next step will be to check for voltage on the A2 terminal with the engine running .
IF the Orange wire has voltage at the switch and the green wire does not then there is a break in the green wire or the Orange wire as they are joined together.
Do the lights work ?


#38

K

Kangel55

bertsmobile1 said:
IT should start with the seat switch unhooked.
The seat switch is not in the cranking circuit.

So now we know part of the problem, no voltage to the relay because there is no voltage to the seat switch.
Next step will be to check for voltage on the A2 terminal with the engine running .
IF the Orange wire has voltage at the switch and the green wire does not then there is a break in the green wire or the Orange wire as they are joined together.
Do the lights work ?
Click to expand...

OK Going To Back up previous instruction, ground must not have been good on light, unhooked switch only one side lit on plug, going on to step two now...sorry lol.


#39

K

Kangel55

Kangel55 said:
OK Going To Back up previous instruction, ground must not have been good on light, unhooked switch only one side lit on plug, going on to step two now...sorry lol.
Click to expand...

Bertsmobile I'm pretty sure I think I know what the problem is, the ignition plug in itself. I took the switch loose from dash and rehooked to plug , started motor, I couldn't get light up on seat plug again. While moving plug wires on ignition plug something was happening there causing motor to die, wiggle them around and motor would speed back up. Need to replace plug or can you rewire them??? Guess I need to also get a multimeter so I can check this new ignition switch. Your thoughts?? Thanks for all your help!


#40

B

bertsmobile1

Bummer
Looked like it was going to be easy.


#41

K

Kangel55

bertsmobile1 said:
Bummer
Looked like it was going to be easy.
Click to expand...

Lol...that's the way it always is with me, nothing ez. If I need a new wire harness I will never find one, 20yr old mower in good condition, used it lastyear.


#42

EngineMan

EngineMan

No need for a new wire harness, find the wire that's giving you the problem and rewire that one.


#43

B

bertsmobile1

EngineMan said:
No need for a new wire harness, find the wire that's giving you the problem and rewire that one.
Click to expand...

DON'T PANIC

If you have power at the A2 terminal on the orange wire, get a length of green wire ( keep it simple, keep colours the same ) then work out which wire goes to the relay and which wire goes to the orange wire.
Get a trailer wire splice cut the bad wire off leaving enough wire to make a join that will not foul on anything then run your new green wire to the orange wire & splice it in, don't cut it off cause that might create problems elsewhere.


#44

K

Kangel55

I had went up and bought a multimeter so I would have one and went ahead and checked all the switches I bought for this more and all test good, however, the PTO switch new one has 8 prongs and the old one (which tested bad) has 7. In the female plug it has room for 8 but its just an empty hole in 8th slot. I double checked numbers and this 8 prong switch is the replacement number. Will this matter ya think?

Here is picture: https://www.jthomasparts.com/430-79...MIusWNqrXY2wIVEbnACh3q5Q8SEAQYBSABEgJvMvD_BwE


The 7 prong one only has 1 row with 3 terminals.


#45

EngineMan

EngineMan

Has long has you are using the same socket it shouldn't matter, one of the row of three will have NC-NO (not closed or not open)


#46

K

Kangel55

Wheww man this problem. Went out and bought a meter so I could test better. First I pulled all switches and checked them, all good. Started mower up (runs good) checked both green wires leading to seat switch both sides have 12 volts on them. Is that right? Plugged back up. Checked back of ignition plug where green wire goes in read 12V, checked back of relay with green, 12V. I know the clutch switch is working because I turn switch around I can start engine with brake off. Just out of being curious pulled out PTO and it died just like the brake issue. Also while in that state with no brake, seen if mower would move, it did. I'm just stumped with this thing. I also rechecked the ignition switch wires 2nd time and pulling and pushing them in and out gingerly I'm back sliding that not to be the problem. The wire harness looks good the wires dont seem brittle, its always been garaged. I hate losing, been that way my whole life...lol, but this dam thing is winning. I hate to call somebody to fix it.


#47

EngineMan

EngineMan

I'll go back to my old post and ask again, have you check the operator presence relay....! when the seat is occupied....there should be NO continuity from post 87a to 30/86 on that relay.


#48

K

Kangel55

EngineMan said:
I'll go back to my old post and ask again, have you check the operator presence relay....! when the seat is occupied....there should be NO continuity from post 87a to 30/86 on that relay.
Click to expand...

When out and tested this, motor running seat occupied, the meter toned on all those mentioned.


#49

K

Kangel55

I checked that from back of plug.


#50

EngineMan

EngineMan

If you have continuity on these post then the relay is not working.


#51

K

Kangel55

EngineMan said:
If you have continuity on these post then the relay is not working.
Click to expand...


Ordered another one, update when I get it.


#52

B

bertsmobile1

While you were waiting for the relay go back to post 35 and check the wires at the relay plug.
Also please clarify the seat switch situation.
With the switch removed the plug should have 12 V on one side only not both.


#53

K

Kangel55

bertsmobile1 said:
While you were waiting for the relay go back to post 35 and check the wires at the relay plug.
Also please clarify the seat switch situation.
With the switch removed the plug should have 12 V on one side only not both.
Click to expand...

I'm getting ready to do this but wanted to know relay question, if you grab it while running should the relay contact be going on and off? I feel contact in and out.


#54

EngineMan

EngineMan

Kangel55 said:
I'm getting ready to do this but wanted to know relay question, if you grab it while running should the relay contact be going on and off? I feel contact in and out.
Click to expand...

NO is the answer.....it should remain on unless you get off the seat.....its the seat switch that powers it, from the key switch..A2

Sit down with a cup of coffee and work it all out on the wiring diagram...!


#55

K

Kangel55

First test only 3.37V going to seat plug wires, switch unhooked.


#56

EngineMan

EngineMan

Kangel55 said:
First test only 3.37V going to seat plug wires, switch unhooked.
Click to expand...

Then you have a problem, should be the same has battery volts, check it at the key switch at A2 if low there check at B, also look for a bad ground, that's - (negative) from the battery.


#57

K

Kangel55

EngineMan said:
Then you have a problem, should be the same has battery volts, check it at the key switch at A2 if low there check at B, also look for a bad ground, that's - (negative) from the battery.
Click to expand...

Ground looks good from battery. A2 nothing, B 12V.


#58

K

Kangel55

Green and red wire on A2.


#59

K

Kangel55

I've looked at all these wires replaced switches, I just don't get where it has a problem, it doesn't look complicated.


#60

K

Kangel55

Kangel55 said:
I've looked at all these wires replaced switches, I just don't get where it has a problem, it doesn't look complicated.
Click to expand...

I pulled ignition switch out it all chks ok. Left it out and plugged it in and again if it's moved right it will kill engine. You can't tell which wire it is, I've grabbed and wiggled them all. I think it needs a new plug for switch but I can't buy one. I'm done for today more hours down the drain.


#61

K

Kangel55

I started today with post #35 unhookING seat and I got 12v on one side only then made it up to relay part and checking wires there on back of plug seemed there was a lot for me to remember. Came in so I could write stuff down, started at seat plug again, now it only read 3.37V. So, I never made it back to relay part again cause I couldn't get the 12v reading again. Then moved to ignition switch part above as posted.


#62

EngineMan

EngineMan

See if you 12v on A1 when key is turned ON, you need the seat switch plug in and someone or something sitting on the seat, then check if you 12v on post 85 of the relay.

you may also have a bad key switch.

Are you running this test with the engine running...?


#63

EngineMan

EngineMan

Path to power the relay

Attachments





#64

K

Kangel55

EngineMan said:
See if you 12v on A1 when key is turned ON, you need the seat switch plug in and someone or something sitting on the seat, then check if you 12v on post 85 of the relay.

you may also have a bad key switch.

Are you running this test with the engine running...?
Click to expand...

You want it running? Getting ready to go out and check


#65

K

Kangel55

Kangel55 said:
You want it running? Getting ready to go out and check
Click to expand...

With key on...no Volts.


#66

K

Kangel55

Well kiss my grits, No volts with key in run position, turned to lights position and I had right volts everywhere, everything worked, brake, seat switch good, pto good. I checked that new key switch for continuity and all checked out by schematic of switch. Guess the dam New Switch is bad. Thank you guys for hanging with me I learned a lot about mower wiring. Thanks again.


#67

EngineMan

EngineMan

Good to hear that, but what key switch are you using now..?

if you keep on reading you will get to the end of the book...!:thumbsup:


#68

K

Kangel55

Same key switch it's just that after its started you turn it back to lights position everything works...lol. need to replace. Beats me why.


#69

B

bertsmobile1

Kangel55 said:
Same key switch it's just that after its started you turn it back to lights position everything works...lol. need to replace. Beats me why.
Click to expand...

Could very well be the wrong switch.
As mentioned before, some bridge the A1 & A2 terminals internally, some don't
However if you look closely t the diagram the A1 & A2 wires are joined together further down in the wiring loom.

This brings me back to post where I suggested you make the "switch" connections on the key switch plug using jumper wires so you can eliminate the switch to determine if the problem is in the switch or in the loom.

Wiring problems are a process of elimination and jumping a switch is the best way of eliminating a switch.

More than once I have ended up jumping every switch in a loom in order to determine there was an actual fault in the wiring, which ended up being a joiner that wasn't.


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