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Laws Governing Professional Lawn Maintenance Businesses
#1
djdicetn
djdicetn
OK, guys....I was gonna start a POLL thread, but never having done that before I figured I would mess it up:0)
So I am starting this thread which will most likely make some of you mad at me, some of you will utilize it to vent and some of you will even agree with my twisted perception of how governing bodies should/should not "dictate" additional constraints on a Lawn Maintenance business. Here goes:
A recent broadcast on a local network news program reported a lawn care maintenance professional who died when his John Deere Zero Turn overturned. The pictures of this "Commercial mower", as the news reported, had no ROPS. I don't know if indeed it was a "Commercial" John Deere model or not by what I saw on the news but I did notice the lack of a ROPS. Sooooooooo, should there be a "law" that fines a lawn care service if their mowers do not meet "safety requirements"? For this discussion, let's drop the debate of what constitutes a "professional lawn care maintenance" person and just go on the premise that this law would govern anyone who receives money for mowing a lawn(or the "owner" should it be a company with a license). I'll bet that if this news story was indeed a "licensed/insured lawn maintenance services company", that their insurance company just sent them a letter of their coverage being cancelled. Also, should the dealer that sold a "Commercial" ZTR to a lawn service(or individual that had the intent to mow lawns for money)without a ROPS be held liable as well? I say that because when I recently considered the purchase of a Bad Boy Outlaw(which is considered a "Commercial" model of that brand), all of the pictures on the Bad Boy website showed it with a ROPS(but there was no specific mention of it in the "specs") only to find the Outlaw at the dealer did not "come with one" and the dealer wanted an extra $300 for it(that didn't go over too well with me:0) And........if we shift gears and assume we are the deceased guy's wife in this news story, who do we decide to sue over this(unless he signed an employment waiver of liability)? Everyone knows what a legalistic society we live in(can you spell hot coffee in a McDonald's drive-thru) and that kind of repercussion is bound to happen.
Now......I'm ready to be "blasted" by any ignorance on my part(I reserve the right to be wrong) of any existing licensing/insurance coverage details that already deals with this "safety issue". Personally, I think there needs to be some accountability at the dealer level and regulations at the business level, but I can be swayed by overwhelming arguments as to why not. And I am very curious as to the opinions about this subject that many of the other users on these forums have about this topic as well as adding details and other perspectives and/or "what ifs". Have at it guys!!!!
So I am starting this thread which will most likely make some of you mad at me, some of you will utilize it to vent and some of you will even agree with my twisted perception of how governing bodies should/should not "dictate" additional constraints on a Lawn Maintenance business. Here goes:
A recent broadcast on a local network news program reported a lawn care maintenance professional who died when his John Deere Zero Turn overturned. The pictures of this "Commercial mower", as the news reported, had no ROPS. I don't know if indeed it was a "Commercial" John Deere model or not by what I saw on the news but I did notice the lack of a ROPS. Sooooooooo, should there be a "law" that fines a lawn care service if their mowers do not meet "safety requirements"? For this discussion, let's drop the debate of what constitutes a "professional lawn care maintenance" person and just go on the premise that this law would govern anyone who receives money for mowing a lawn(or the "owner" should it be a company with a license). I'll bet that if this news story was indeed a "licensed/insured lawn maintenance services company", that their insurance company just sent them a letter of their coverage being cancelled. Also, should the dealer that sold a "Commercial" ZTR to a lawn service(or individual that had the intent to mow lawns for money)without a ROPS be held liable as well? I say that because when I recently considered the purchase of a Bad Boy Outlaw(which is considered a "Commercial" model of that brand), all of the pictures on the Bad Boy website showed it with a ROPS(but there was no specific mention of it in the "specs") only to find the Outlaw at the dealer did not "come with one" and the dealer wanted an extra $300 for it(that didn't go over too well with me:0) And........if we shift gears and assume we are the deceased guy's wife in this news story, who do we decide to sue over this(unless he signed an employment waiver of liability)? Everyone knows what a legalistic society we live in(can you spell hot coffee in a McDonald's drive-thru) and that kind of repercussion is bound to happen.
Now......I'm ready to be "blasted" by any ignorance on my part(I reserve the right to be wrong) of any existing licensing/insurance coverage details that already deals with this "safety issue". Personally, I think there needs to be some accountability at the dealer level and regulations at the business level, but I can be swayed by overwhelming arguments as to why not. And I am very curious as to the opinions about this subject that many of the other users on these forums have about this topic as well as adding details and other perspectives and/or "what ifs". Have at it guys!!!!
#2
Carscw
Ok what if you do not use a mower that is sold as a commercial mower?
As sorry as I feel for this mans wife. There should not be a law because of dumb *** people that flip there mower over. Everyone knows that ztr can not mow hills that's why I don't have one.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
OK, guys....I was gonna start a POLL thread, but never having done that before I figured I would mess it up:0)
So I am starting this thread which will most likely make some of you mad at me, some of you will utilize it to vent and some of you will even agree with my twisted perception of how governing bodies should/should not "dictate" additional constraints on a Lawn Maintenance business. Here goes:
A recent broadcast on a local network news program reported a lawn care maintenance professional who died when his John Deere Zero Turn overturned. The pictures of this "Commercial mower", as the news reported, had no ROPS. I don't know if indeed it was a "Commercial" John Deere model or not by what I saw on the news but I did notice the lack of a ROPS. Sooooooooo, should there be a "law" that fines a lawn care service if their mowers do not meet "safety requirements"? For this discussion, let's drop the debate of what constitutes a "professional lawn care maintenance" person and just go on the premise that this law would govern anyone who receives money for mowing a lawn(or the "owner" should it be a company with a license). I'll bet that if this news story was indeed a "licensed/insured lawn maintenance services company", that their insurance company just sent them a letter of their coverage being cancelled. Also, should the dealer that sold a "Commercial" ZTR to a lawn service(or individual that had the intent to mow lawns for money)without a ROPS be held liable as well? I say that because when I recently considered the purchase of a Bad Boy Outlaw(which is considered a "Commercial" model of that brand), all of the pictures on the Bad Boy website showed it with a ROPS(but there was no specific mention of it in the "specs") only to find the Outlaw at the dealer did not "come with one" and the dealer wanted an extra $300 for it(that didn't go over too well with me:0) And........if we shift gears and assume we are the deceased guy's wife in this news story, who do we decide to sue over this(unless he signed an employment waiver of liability)? Everyone knows what a legalistic society we live in(can you spell hot coffe in a McDonald's drive-thru) and that kind of repurcussion is bound to happen.
Now......I'm ready to be "blasted" by any ignorance on my part(I reserve the right to be wrong) of any existing licensing/insurance coverage details that already deals with this "safety issue". Personally, I think there needs to be some accountability at the dealer level and regulations at the business level, but I can be swayed by overwhelming arguments as to why not. And I am very curious as to the opinions about this subject that many of the other users on these forums have about this topic as well as adding details and other perspectives and/or "what ifs". Have at it guys!!!!
P.S.
I know....I know, I mispelled Maintenance in the Subject, but I don't know how to fix it:0)
Ok what if you do not use a mower that is sold as a commercial mower?
As sorry as I feel for this mans wife. There should not be a law because of dumb *** people that flip there mower over. Everyone knows that ztr can not mow hills that's why I don't have one.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#3
djdicetn
djdicetn
Re: Laws Governing Professional Lawn Maitenance Businesses
Carscw,
Interesting that you mention a mower not sold as commercial. That opens up the topic of a lawn business "starter" who cannot "afford" a $7k-$10k "Commercial" mower that has a ROPS. And what about "Commercial" walk-behinds with a sulky or standers where a ROPS may not be feasible. manufacturers would be "required" to implement ROPS(or alternative safety devices on anything in their line that they "sold as" a Commercial unit. Their "out" could possibly "stop selling ANY zero turns as "Commercial". But maybe, as you pointed out, due to "known restrictions" ZTR's(because of their design) would be the only ones with a ROPS "required". BTW, my Gravely Pro-Turn blatantly has "COMMERCIAL" across the front of it, so Gravely wouldn't be able to sell it that way and get out of the "regulation" were there one.
Ok what if you do not use a mower that is sold as a commercial mower?
As sorry as I feel for this mans wife. There should not be a law because of dumb *** people that flip there mower over. Everyone knows that ztr can not mow hills that's why I don't have one.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw,
Interesting that you mention a mower not sold as commercial. That opens up the topic of a lawn business "starter" who cannot "afford" a $7k-$10k "Commercial" mower that has a ROPS. And what about "Commercial" walk-behinds with a sulky or standers where a ROPS may not be feasible. manufacturers would be "required" to implement ROPS(or alternative safety devices on anything in their line that they "sold as" a Commercial unit. Their "out" could possibly "stop selling ANY zero turns as "Commercial". But maybe, as you pointed out, due to "known restrictions" ZTR's(because of their design) would be the only ones with a ROPS "required". BTW, my Gravely Pro-Turn blatantly has "COMMERCIAL" across the front of it, so Gravely wouldn't be able to sell it that way and get out of the "regulation" were there one.
#4
Ric
Ric
Re: Laws Governing Professional Lawn Maitenance Businesses
It's not the fact that a ZTR can't mow hills because it can and it can do as well as any mower going, it's the fact that people ignore the manuals and mow the wrong directions. Both ZTR and Lawn tractors are rated at no more than 15 degrees so either can roll if you try and use them on a slope of more than fifteen degrees. The problem come when people think they know what there doing instead of pay attention to the manufacturers. As far as the Rops is concerned I stated in a post before that the residential and commercial operators have two different sets of rules as far as mowers.
Ok what if you do not use a mower that is sold as a commercial mower?
As sorry as I feel for this mans wife. There should not be a law because of dumb *** people that flip there mower over. Everyone knows that ztr can not mow hills that's why I don't have one.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
It's not the fact that a ZTR can't mow hills because it can and it can do as well as any mower going, it's the fact that people ignore the manuals and mow the wrong directions. Both ZTR and Lawn tractors are rated at no more than 15 degrees so either can roll if you try and use them on a slope of more than fifteen degrees. The problem come when people think they know what there doing instead of pay attention to the manufacturers. As far as the Rops is concerned I stated in a post before that the residential and commercial operators have two different sets of rules as far as mowers.
#5
Carscw
I am not sure what it is for my cub cadet but the engine is 25 degrees.
I know here in order to do any state work like rest stops you have to have rops and seat belts.
I do not think manufacturers should have to change how they label or sell a mower because a few fools flip there's over.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
It's not the fact that a ZTR can't mow hills because it can and it can do as well as any mower going, it's the fact that people ignore the manuals and mow the wrong directions. Both ZTR and Lawn tractors are rared at no more than 15 degrees so either can roll if you try and use them on a slope of more than fifteen degrees. The problem come when people think they know what there doing instead of pay attention to the manufacturers. As far as the Rops is concerned I stated in a post before that the residential and commercial operators have two different sets of rules as far as mowers.
I am not sure what it is for my cub cadet but the engine is 25 degrees.
I know here in order to do any state work like rest stops you have to have rops and seat belts.
I do not think manufacturers should have to change how they label or sell a mower because a few fools flip there's over.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#6
djdicetn
djdicetn
Re: Laws Governing Professional Lawn Maitenance Businesses
Carscw,
Makes sense that the GA State Government would specify that kind of requirement in an RFP(Request For Proposal) for awarding a mowing contract. They definitely don't want the people of Georgia(actually them) sued.
I am not sure what it is for my cub cadet but the engine is 25 degrees.
I know here in order to do any state work like rest stops you have to have rops and seat belts.
I do not think manufacturers should have to change how they label or sell a mower because a few fools flip there's over.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw,
Makes sense that the GA State Government would specify that kind of requirement in an RFP(Request For Proposal) for awarding a mowing contract. They definitely don't want the people of Georgia(actually them) sued.
#7
Ric
Ric
Re: Laws Governing Professional Lawn Maitenance Businesses
The engine in my stander is capable of running at 25 degrees for lubrication purposes, the maximum slope operation is 20 degrees. I think the manufacturers are most likely doing everything they can to inform the public of safe operating practices but it doesn't do any good because you always have those who think they know more than the manufacturer knows. The things that bother me are things like safety switches on Residential mowers vs Commercial why do they set up mowers the way they do. Does it make sense to put a blade stop on a Residential mower so the blades disengage when you go in reverse and not have the same on a commercial, does it make sense to have a Rops on a commercial and not a residential ztr. Whatever the manufacturer does you'll always have a few that will push the limits. People need to read the manuals first and take it to heart do what it says in every respect from driving on slopes to changing the oil.
I am not sure what it is for my cub cadet but the engine is 25 degrees.
I know here in order to do any state work like rest stops you have to have rops and seat belts.
I do not think manufacturers should have to change how they label or sell a mower because a few fools flip there's over.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
The engine in my stander is capable of running at 25 degrees for lubrication purposes, the maximum slope operation is 20 degrees. I think the manufacturers are most likely doing everything they can to inform the public of safe operating practices but it doesn't do any good because you always have those who think they know more than the manufacturer knows. The things that bother me are things like safety switches on Residential mowers vs Commercial why do they set up mowers the way they do. Does it make sense to put a blade stop on a Residential mower so the blades disengage when you go in reverse and not have the same on a commercial, does it make sense to have a Rops on a commercial and not a residential ztr. Whatever the manufacturer does you'll always have a few that will push the limits. People need to read the manuals first and take it to heart do what it says in every respect from driving on slopes to changing the oil.
#8
midnite rider
midnite rider
Re: Laws Governing Professional Lawn Maitenance Businesses
As the saying goes "You can't fix stupid." Eventually they cull themselves out of the gene pool.
Whatever the manufacturer does you'll always have a few that will push the limits. People need to read the manuals first and take it to heart do what it says in every respect from driving on slopes to changing the oil.
As the saying goes "You can't fix stupid." Eventually they cull themselves out of the gene pool.
#9
Ric
Ric
Re: Laws Governing Professional Lawn Maitenance Businesses
:laughing::laughing::thumbsup::thumbsup:
As the saying goes "You can't fix stupid." Eventually they cull themselves out of the gene pool.
:laughing::laughing::thumbsup::thumbsup:
#10
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Re: Laws Governing Professional Lawn Maitenance Businesses
I like the expression "cull themselves out of the gene poll"!!!
My 2008 Scag Tiger Cub is my first machine with a ROPS, as I had been mowing with Ingersoll GTs for many years.
I took on a new customer a while back who's trees were in bad need of lower trimming and I hung up the ROPS on a branch of one of the needy trees as I was radially mowing under it from the center out. It lifted the front on my ZTR almost to the point of flipping me over backwards.
I stopped mowing, went to my trailer, got out my trimming tool and nipped off the branches that I thought were problematic and disposed of them in a wooded area behind this house. He saw me, came out and blew his top at me and while attempting to explain the situation to him he fired me on the spot. I packed up and left.
He hired a young chap that said he would mow for half my price. About a month later I was traveling past this place and the new lawn care guy was doing the lawn on his new big box store bargain mower, but without a collection system he was leaving a mess. Several hours later on my return trip past this same house, I saw a tow truck attempting to lift the new guys mower from the collapsed septic tank!!! I stopped to see what was going on and I thought to myself that this situation was very amusing!!! I never did mow near this stinky soft area. A week or so later I got a call from this customer asking me to come back and mow his lawns again, but I declined. However I did offer to take him to a local power equipment dealer and assist him in finding a mower that would suit his needs and he took me up on the offer. He put in a new septic tank and leach fields and now does his own lawn care. I ran into him at a local deli and chatted with him some, he thanked me for my patience and guidance with him. I casually asked him if he had installed floats on his mower, he chuckled and mentioned that the other guy had demanded that he replace the "wet" mower!!! Oh well, stuff happens!!!!:laughing:
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
I like the expression "cull themselves out of the gene poll"!!!
My 2008 Scag Tiger Cub is my first machine with a ROPS, as I had been mowing with Ingersoll GTs for many years.
I took on a new customer a while back who's trees were in bad need of lower trimming and I hung up the ROPS on a branch of one of the needy trees as I was radially mowing under it from the center out. It lifted the front on my ZTR almost to the point of flipping me over backwards.
I stopped mowing, went to my trailer, got out my trimming tool and nipped off the branches that I thought were problematic and disposed of them in a wooded area behind this house. He saw me, came out and blew his top at me and while attempting to explain the situation to him he fired me on the spot. I packed up and left.
He hired a young chap that said he would mow for half my price. About a month later I was traveling past this place and the new lawn care guy was doing the lawn on his new big box store bargain mower, but without a collection system he was leaving a mess. Several hours later on my return trip past this same house, I saw a tow truck attempting to lift the new guys mower from the collapsed septic tank!!! I stopped to see what was going on and I thought to myself that this situation was very amusing!!! I never did mow near this stinky soft area. A week or so later I got a call from this customer asking me to come back and mow his lawns again, but I declined. However I did offer to take him to a local power equipment dealer and assist him in finding a mower that would suit his needs and he took me up on the offer. He put in a new septic tank and leach fields and now does his own lawn care. I ran into him at a local deli and chatted with him some, he thanked me for my patience and guidance with him. I casually asked him if he had installed floats on his mower, he chuckled and mentioned that the other guy had demanded that he replace the "wet" mower!!! Oh well, stuff happens!!!!:laughing:
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
#11
M
mowerman05
M
mowerman05
Re: Laws Governing Professional Lawn Maitenance Businesses
why can you lower a ROP bar on a commercial mower, it does no good in the down position. I had a toro that I removed the ROPS for my use only on flat ground and just sold it. the man that bought it told me to leave it off . He didnt want it on but I reinstalled it befor selling for liability
why can you lower a ROP bar on a commercial mower, it does no good in the down position. I had a toro that I removed the ROPS for my use only on flat ground and just sold it. the man that bought it told me to leave it off . He didnt want it on but I reinstalled it befor selling for liability
#12
exotion
I think the last statement is the answer to your question.
exotion
why can you lower a ROP bar on a commercial mower, it does no good in the down position. I had a toro that I removed the ROPS for my use only on flat ground and just sold it. the man that bought it told me to leave it off . He didnt want it on but I reinstalled it befor selling for liability
I think the last statement is the answer to your question.
#13
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
Re: Laws Governing Professional Lawn Maitenance Businesses
My Scag Tiger Cub doesn't have a folding ROPS, newer models have folding ROPS. My Hustler X-ONE has a folding ROPS and I keep it folded. I don't intend to remove the ROPS from my Scag as it has a collection system the top of which isn't much lower than the ROPS.
Mad Mackie in CT
My Scag Tiger Cub doesn't have a folding ROPS, newer models have folding ROPS. My Hustler X-ONE has a folding ROPS and I keep it folded. I don't intend to remove the ROPS from my Scag as it has a collection system the top of which isn't much lower than the ROPS.
Mad Mackie in CT
#14
M
mowerguy
M
mowerguy
I am not biased to either having to ROPS or not. But how many people actually wear their seat belt when they jump on the mower? A ROPS is no good if you don't wear your seat belt to keep you on the mower. Will they have "lawn mower police" driving around handing out tickets for not wearing your seat belt?? ??
#15
exotion
We do in washington the dept of agri will come make sure you are properly licenced if you are laying herbicides he will also observe you work make sure osha doesn't have anything to worrie about. They do not check busines licences or vehicle licences.
exotion
I am not biased to either having to ROPS or not. But how many people actually wear their seat belt when they jump on the mower? A ROPS is no good if you don't wear your seat belt to keep you on the mower. Will they have "lawn mower police" driving around handing out tickets for not wearing your seat belt?? ?de04?dc4d
We do in washington the dept of agri will come make sure you are properly licenced if you are laying herbicides he will also observe you work make sure osha doesn't have anything to worrie about. They do not check busines licences or vehicle licences.
#16
M
mowerguy
M
mowerguy
I understand the pesticide aspect of it. That's a little more involved. I am not licensed to do any spraying. It was just a sense of humor
#17
AmericanTurf
AmericanTurf
These anti American liberals can shove there laws up there ***!!!!
They are the stupidest people alive. I can't wait for Muslim lover piece of **** nobama to die! I can't wait for doom to be coming civil war do I can shoot Muslims and libs!!
That's my view of this topic. I'm not going to be a pussy and talk about what a mower can and can't do on a hill
They are the stupidest people alive. I can't wait for Muslim lover piece of **** nobama to die! I can't wait for doom to be coming civil war do I can shoot Muslims and libs!!
That's my view of this topic. I'm not going to be a pussy and talk about what a mower can and can't do on a hill
#18
Carscw
There is a place that can help you with some counseling and meds.
I am not a Obama fan but it is people like you that hurt this country more than he does. All you have done on here is cry like a little ***** first was you crying about no names. If you you did a better job at doing yards you would not have to worry about them taking your yards.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
These anti American liberals can shove there laws up there ***!!!!
They are the stupidest people alive. I can't wait for Muslim lover piece of **** nobama to die! I can't wait for doom to be coming civil war do I can shoot Muslims and libs!!
That's my view of this topic. I'm not going to be a pussy and talk about what a mower can and can't do on a hill
There is a place that can help you with some counseling and meds.
I am not a Obama fan but it is people like you that hurt this country more than he does. All you have done on here is cry like a little ***** first was you crying about no names. If you you did a better job at doing yards you would not have to worry about them taking your yards.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#19
Ric
Ric
It's 
time
time
#20
exotion
Lol as soon as people realize the president doesn't do anything..... american presidency is nothing but a front. Someone to blame. He has no power cannot do anything get over your self.
exotion
These anti American liberals can shove there laws up there ***!!!!
They are the stupidest people alive. I can't wait for Muslim lover piece of **** nobama to die! I can't wait for doom to be coming civil war do I can shoot Muslims and libs!!
That's my view of this topic. I'm not going to be a pussy and talk about what a mower can and can't do on a hill
Lol as soon as people realize the president doesn't do anything..... american presidency is nothing but a front. Someone to blame. He has no power cannot do anything get over your self.
#21
Carscw
I won't say he has no power but to many people think he can just do anything.
He can not just make up any law he wants. Then you have these fools that think he is going to come and search there house for guns. Like he really cares if you have a gun or is gone to search your house.
Any laws that have anything to do with mowers he does not even know about or care about.
Some people are just to dumb to use a mower. If your thinking if I do this I could get killed when the mower rolls over than don't do it.
I see guys cutting there grass with a beer in the cup holder and a child in there lap.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
Lol as soon as people realize the president doesn't do anything..... american presidency is nothing but a front. Someone to blame. He has no power cannot do anything get over your self.
I won't say he has no power but to many people think he can just do anything.
He can not just make up any law he wants. Then you have these fools that think he is going to come and search there house for guns. Like he really cares if you have a gun or is gone to search your house.
Any laws that have anything to do with mowers he does not even know about or care about.
Some people are just to dumb to use a mower. If your thinking if I do this I could get killed when the mower rolls over than don't do it.
I see guys cutting there grass with a beer in the cup holder and a child in there lap.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#22
M
motoman
M
motoman
Let me strike a blow for those who work on others' lawns...It should be very clear that, as Mac's story shows, people who are not nice will end up in deep pucky. :laughing:
#23
AmericanTurf
AmericanTurf
Cardork I'm not crying but I would sure make you cry like a little *****!!!
#24
Carscw
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
Cardork I'm not crying but I would sure make you cry like a little *****!!!
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#25
therev
therev
I'm ok with the license of spraying chemicals but the governments already involved in to much. They have no Buisness telling me how to operate a mower and I'm a Law Enforcement officer. People need to use "common sense" more and quit looking for the government to bail them out!
#26
djdicetn
djdicetn
Re: Laws Governing Professional Lawn Maitenance Businesses
Mad Mackie,
Very good comments on the subject!!! And the fact that you "unintentionally" clipped the customer's tree limb you could have been a B___hole and said "I have a ROPS as a safety feature so that I don't have to sue you if your property "injures me.....or my ZTR's safety feature"...and by the way, I will closely inspect my ROPS for damage and get back with you should damages to my property have been incurred by your tree":0)
I like the expression "cull themselves out of the gene poll"!!!
My 2008 Scag Tiger Cub is my first machine with a ROPS, as I had been mowing with Ingersoll GTs for many years.
I took on a new customer a while back who's trees were in bad need of lower trimming and I hung up the ROPS on a branch of one of the needy trees as I was radially mowing under it from the center out. It lifted the front on my ZTR almost to the point of flipping me over backwards.
I stopped mowing, went to my trailer, got out my trimming tool and nipped off the branches that I thought were problematic and disposed of them in a wooded area behind this house. He saw me, came out and blew his top at me and while attempting to explain the situation to him he fired me on the spot. I packed up and left.
He hired a young chap that said he would mow for half my price. About a month later I was traveling past this place and the new lawn care guy was doing the lawn on his new big box store bargain mower, but without a collection system he was leaving a mess. Several hours later on my return trip past this same house, I saw a tow truck attempting to lift the new guys mower from the collapsed septic tank!!! I stopped to see what was going on and I thought to myself that this situation was very amusing!!! I never did mow near this stinky soft area. A week or so later I got a call from this customer asking me to come back and mow his lawns again, but I declined. However I did offer to take him to a local power equipment dealer and assist him in finding a mower that would suit his needs and he took me up on the offer. He put in a new septic tank and leach fields and now does his own lawn care. I ran into him at a local deli and chatted with him some, he thanked me for my patience and guidance with him. I casually asked him if he had installed floats on his mower, he chuckled and mentioned that the other guy had demanded that he replace the "wet" mower!!! Oh well, stuff happens!!!!:laughing:
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
Mad Mackie,
Very good comments on the subject!!! And the fact that you "unintentionally" clipped the customer's tree limb you could have been a B___hole and said "I have a ROPS as a safety feature so that I don't have to sue you if your property "injures me.....or my ZTR's safety feature"...and by the way, I will closely inspect my ROPS for damage and get back with you should damages to my property have been incurred by your tree":0)
#27
djdicetn
exotion,
I heard that......in today's world it sometimes is ALL ABOUT LIABILITY!!!!!
djdicetn
I think the last statement is the answer to your question.
exotion,
I heard that......in today's world it sometimes is ALL ABOUT LIABILITY!!!!!
#28
djdicetn
mowerguy,
I have a foldable ROPS too. But I also mounted a sunshade to it for sun protection so I "have to keep it up"(you may notice it down in my Avatar prior to the sunshade addition). And like user Mad Mackie mentioned earlier, some of the reasons I started out with it folded down was (1)Mimosa trees with low-hanging branches and (2)extended ROPS/seat belt....why, I'll never have an accident(it'll never happen to me/10 feet tall, bullet-proof syndrome). Believe me, after a "local man" being killed(dead, gone, a professional who knew what he was doing), and I'm 100% sure that is NOT the first fatal ZTR rollover, the seat-belt goes on from here on out(I wear one everytime I get in my automobile.....actually the "law" in Tennessee, what's so different about going 10mph on my ZTR?). I would hate for my widow to weep every time she thinks about "letting me buy that damn lawn mower"!!!!!!!! That's why I started this very controversial thread/debate.
djdicetn
I am not biased to either having to ROPS or not. But how many people actually wear their seat belt when they jump on the mower? A ROPS is no good if you don't wear your seat belt to keep you on the mower. Will they have "lawn mower police" driving around handing out tickets for not wearing your seat belt??
mowerguy,
I have a foldable ROPS too. But I also mounted a sunshade to it for sun protection so I "have to keep it up"(you may notice it down in my Avatar prior to the sunshade addition). And like user Mad Mackie mentioned earlier, some of the reasons I started out with it folded down was (1)Mimosa trees with low-hanging branches and (2)extended ROPS/seat belt....why, I'll never have an accident(it'll never happen to me/10 feet tall, bullet-proof syndrome). Believe me, after a "local man" being killed(dead, gone, a professional who knew what he was doing), and I'm 100% sure that is NOT the first fatal ZTR rollover, the seat-belt goes on from here on out(I wear one everytime I get in my automobile.....actually the "law" in Tennessee, what's so different about going 10mph on my ZTR?). I would hate for my widow to weep every time she thinks about "letting me buy that damn lawn mower"!!!!!!!! That's why I started this very controversial thread/debate.
#29
djdicetn
AmericanTurf,
To get back on topic....I take it you do NOT have/use a ROPS or seatbelt on that Grasshopper because a fatal rollover absolutely can not EVER happen to you??? You are a good ole boy American that is "10 feet tall and bullet proof"(there may be a Muslim with a legal gun and carry permit that's a beter shot than you are...and loves HIS freedom to practice the Isalm faith as a U.S. citizen under our Constitution). That is NOT the subject of this thread!!!!!! I respect your rights to an opinion but this is not the place to discuss that.
djdicetn
These anti American liberals can shove there laws up there ***!!!!
They are the stupidest people alive. I can't wait for Muslim lover piece of **** nobama to die! I can't wait for doom to be coming civil war do I can shoot Muslims and libs!!
That's my view of this topic. I'm not going to be a pussy and talk about what a mower can and can't do on a hill
AmericanTurf,
To get back on topic....I take it you do NOT have/use a ROPS or seatbelt on that Grasshopper because a fatal rollover absolutely can not EVER happen to you??? You are a good ole boy American that is "10 feet tall and bullet proof"(there may be a Muslim with a legal gun and carry permit that's a beter shot than you are...and loves HIS freedom to practice the Isalm faith as a U.S. citizen under our Constitution). That is NOT the subject of this thread!!!!!! I respect your rights to an opinion but this is not the place to discuss that.
#30
djdicetn
Thank you Mr. Moderator!!!!!!!!! PLEASE don't delete my thread.......I'm sure you or the Administrator can remove specific posts(like the Chiebtam???? Vietnamese hacker:0)
djdicetn
It's View attachment 14042 time
Thank you Mr. Moderator!!!!!!!!! PLEASE don't delete my thread.......I'm sure you or the Administrator can remove specific posts(like the Chiebtam???? Vietnamese hacker:0)
#31
exotion
Got to thinking about it and it would be extremely diffucult for anyone to control the 1000's of lawn mow company's out there for any safety control. Example osha governs I wear steal toe boots long jeans and a tee shirt not a tank. However I wear sneakers ankle socks shorts and a tank in the middle of summer never had aproblem.
exotion
Ok what if you do not use a mower that is sold as a commercial mower?
As sorry as I feel for this mans wife. There should not be a law because of dumb *** people that flip there mower over. Everyone knows that ztr can not mow hills that's why I don't have one.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Got to thinking about it and it would be extremely diffucult for anyone to control the 1000's of lawn mow company's out there for any safety control. Example osha governs I wear steal toe boots long jeans and a tee shirt not a tank. However I wear sneakers ankle socks shorts and a tank in the middle of summer never had aproblem.
#32
djdicetn
therev,
I'm up to challenging your position(please don't shoot:0)
My grandson's dad is an Alabama State Trooper and he gives tickets for seat belt violations all the time(and so you don't enforce ALL laws governing automobiles equally, because you don't agfree with that particular concept?). So, the nerve of Legislators/Department of Safety/Automobile manufacturers for forcing seat belts, air bags and ABA braking systems upon those of us who don't want to "buy" those features or adhere to "Protect And Serve" law enforcement of the seat belt law? Lawn mowers travelling in excess of 5mph......exempt?????
So why were ROPS & seatbelts added by the manufacturers(can you spell liability/lawsuits/obvious safety concerns?)?
djdicetn
I'm ok with the license of spraying chemicals but the governments already involved in to much. They have no Buisness telling me how to operate a mower and I'm a Law Enforcement officer. People need to use "common sense" more and quit looking for the government to bail them out!
therev,
I'm up to challenging your position(please don't shoot:0)
My grandson's dad is an Alabama State Trooper and he gives tickets for seat belt violations all the time(and so you don't enforce ALL laws governing automobiles equally, because you don't agfree with that particular concept?). So, the nerve of Legislators/Department of Safety/Automobile manufacturers for forcing seat belts, air bags and ABA braking systems upon those of us who don't want to "buy" those features or adhere to "Protect And Serve" law enforcement of the seat belt law? Lawn mowers travelling in excess of 5mph......exempt?????
So why were ROPS & seatbelts added by the manufacturers(can you spell liability/lawsuits/obvious safety concerns?)?
#33
djdicetn
Here comes the Devil's Advocate again:0)
Same goes for GM, Ford, etc. for mandantory safety controls. They are pretty well "controlled". Just makes some mad that in an effort to protect us(or as aptly put earlier..."fix our stupid":0) the design of ZTR's dictate intervention on our behalf. In the 1940's we could have had this same debate about cars......right??
djdicetn
exotion,Got to thinking about it and it would be extremely diffucult for anyone to control the 1000's of lawn mow company's out there for any safety control. Example osha governs I wear steal toe boots long jeans and a tee shirt not a tank. However I wear sneakers ankle socks shorts and a tank in the middle of summer never had aproblem.
Here comes the Devil's Advocate again:0)
Same goes for GM, Ford, etc. for mandantory safety controls. They are pretty well "controlled". Just makes some mad that in an effort to protect us(or as aptly put earlier..."fix our stupid":0) the design of ZTR's dictate intervention on our behalf. In the 1940's we could have had this same debate about cars......right??
#34
Ric
I think I already removed that post didn't I ???
Ric
Thank you Mr. Moderator!!!!!!!!! PLEASE don't delete my thread.......I'm sure you or the Administrator can remove specific posts(like the Chiebtam???? Vietnamese hacker:0)
I think I already removed that post didn't I ???
#35
djdicetn
I still see it as post#17 in the thread(as well as a few "nice" replies(mine was ALMOST nice:0)
My apologies.....I been a baaaaadddd boy:0)
djdicetn
I think I already removed that post didn't I ???
I still see it as post#17 in the thread(as well as a few "nice" replies(mine was ALMOST nice:0)
My apologies.....I been a baaaaadddd boy:0)
#36
therev
You make a good point but I wasn't trying to throw my weight around by telling people I'm an officer. I meant to show even a govt employee can believe the govt is to big. As far as law enforcement goes it was originally designed for "voluntary compliance ". Meaning the govt did not want officers imposing the laws but would rather its citizens see them and comply with the law. So if I see you not wearing your seatbelt and then see you put it on after you observed me..... It worked, so I would not go stop you and write you a citation. But this is a civil infraction and misdemeanor and felonies are completely different. In my years as an officer I have seen society become more dependent on the govt and I know it wasn't setup this way. Oh I got to go someone needs help with a out of control 4 year old. That's the kind of things I get dispatched to all because people forget to think for themselves. God bless and I do value your opinion.
therev
therev,
I'm up to challenging your position(please don't shoot:0)
My grandson's dad is an Alabama State Trooper and he gives tickets for seat belt violations all the time(and so you don't enforce ALL laws governing automobiles equally, because you don't agfree with that particular concept?). So, the nerve of Legislators/Department of Safety/Automobile manufacturers for forcing seat belts, air bags and ABA braking systems upon those of us who don't want to "buy" those features or adhere to "Protect And Serve" law enforcement of the seat belt law? Lawn mowers travelling in excess of 5mph......exempt?????
So why were ROPS & seatbelts added by the manufacturers(can you spell liability/lawsuits/obvious safety concerns?)?
You make a good point but I wasn't trying to throw my weight around by telling people I'm an officer. I meant to show even a govt employee can believe the govt is to big. As far as law enforcement goes it was originally designed for "voluntary compliance ". Meaning the govt did not want officers imposing the laws but would rather its citizens see them and comply with the law. So if I see you not wearing your seatbelt and then see you put it on after you observed me..... It worked, so I would not go stop you and write you a citation. But this is a civil infraction and misdemeanor and felonies are completely different. In my years as an officer I have seen society become more dependent on the govt and I know it wasn't setup this way. Oh I got to go someone needs help with a out of control 4 year old. That's the kind of things I get dispatched to all because people forget to think for themselves. God bless and I do value your opinion.
#37
X-man
I started a poll just now on whether or not ZTR owners should be fined if the ROPS bar is missing.
I don't have much of an opinion because I don't own a ZTR.
X-man
OK, guys....I was gonna start a POLL thread, but never having done that before I figured I would mess it up:0)
So I am starting this thread which will most likely make some of you mad at me, some of you will utilize it to vent and some of you will even agree with my twisted perception of how governing bodies should/should not "dictate" additional constraints on a Lawn Maintenance business. Here goes:
A recent broadcast on a local network news program reported a lawn care maintenance professional who died when his John Deere Zero Turn overturned. The pictures of this "Commercial mower", as the news reported, had no ROPS. I don't know if indeed it was a "Commercial" John Deere model or not by what I saw on the news but I did notice the lack of a ROPS. Sooooooooo, should there be a "law" that fines a lawn care service if their mowers do not meet "safety requirements"? For this discussion, let's drop the debate of what constitutes a "professional lawn care maintenance" person and just go on the premise that this law would govern anyone who receives money for mowing a lawn(or the "owner" should it be a company with a license). I'll bet that if this news story was indeed a "licensed/insured lawn maintenance services company", that their insurance company just sent them a letter of their coverage being cancelled. Also, should the dealer that sold a "Commercial" ZTR to a lawn service(or individual that had the intent to mow lawns for money)without a ROPS be held liable as well? I say that because when I recently considered the purchase of a Bad Boy Outlaw(which is considered a "Commercial" model of that brand), all of the pictures on the Bad Boy website showed it with a ROPS(but there was no specific mention of it in the "specs") only to find the Outlaw at the dealer did not "come with one" and the dealer wanted an extra $300 for it(that didn't go over too well with me:0) And........if we shift gears and assume we are the deceased guy's wife in this news story, who do we decide to sue over this(unless he signed an employment waiver of liability)? Everyone knows what a legalistic society we live in(can you spell hot coffee in a McDonald's drive-thru) and that kind of repercussion is bound to happen.
Now......I'm ready to be "blasted" by any ignorance on my part(I reserve the right to be wrong) of any existing licensing/insurance coverage details that already deals with this "safety issue". Personally, I think there needs to be some accountability at the dealer level and regulations at the business level, but I can be swayed by overwhelming arguments as to why not. And I am very curious as to the opinions about this subject that many of the other users on these forums have about this topic as well as adding details and other perspectives and/or "what ifs". Have at it guys!!!!
I started a poll just now on whether or not ZTR owners should be fined if the ROPS bar is missing.
I don't have much of an opinion because I don't own a ZTR.
#38
djdicetn
And I yours!!!! Absolutely no offense intended and thank you for your service to your community and placing yourself in harm's way for others. You and all that "serve" are in our prayers constantly as we all no that the "servant" is the biblical representation of the highest honor you can have!!!
djdicetn
You make a good point but I wasn't trying to throw my weight around by telling people I'm an officer. I meant to show even a govt employee can believe the govt is to big. As far as law enforcement goes it was originally designed for "voluntary compliance ". Meaning the govt did not want officers imposing the laws but would rather its citizens see them and comply with the law. So if I see you not wearing your seatbelt and then see you put it on after you observed me..... It worked, so I would not go stop you and write you a citation. But this is a civil infraction and misdemeanor and felonies are completely different. In my years as an officer I have seen society become more dependent on the govt and I know it wasn't setup this way. Oh I got to go someone needs help with a out of control 4 year old. That's the kind of things I get dispatched to all because people forget to think for themselves. God bless and I do value your opinion.
And I yours!!!! Absolutely no offense intended and thank you for your service to your community and placing yourself in harm's way for others. You and all that "serve" are in our prayers constantly as we all no that the "servant" is the biblical representation of the highest honor you can have!!!
#39
djdicetn
X-man,
Thanks...I'll find that and vote right now. Hopefully between the poll and this thread we can discuss the many opinions and reasons in a civil manner as to why this is/is not a good idea. BTW, don't you think you may need a ROPS on that string trimmer just in case you lose your balance and fall in a ditch????:0)
djdicetn
I started a poll just now on whether or not ZTR owners should be fined if the ROPS bar is missing.
I don't have much of an opinion because I don't own a ZTR.
X-man,
Thanks...I'll find that and vote right now. Hopefully between the poll and this thread we can discuss the many opinions and reasons in a civil manner as to why this is/is not a good idea. BTW, don't you think you may need a ROPS on that string trimmer just in case you lose your balance and fall in a ditch????:0)
#40
midnite rider
midnite rider
As I see it if you drive your mower out on a public road as you do a car these laws would be enforcable. What you do on your own property should be up to you and not the government. Seat belt laws being worn in your car are not enforcable by the government on private lands. Now I believe that government wants you dependent on them as then they can have control over you in all aspects of your life such as health care, retirement, housing, etc.
#41
X-man
I agree with that 100% :thumbsup:
X-man
As I see it if you drive your mower out on a public road as you do a car these laws would be enforcable. What you do on your own property should be up to you and not the government. Seat belt laws being worn in your car are not enforcable by the government on private lands. Now I believe that government wants you dependent on them as then they can have control over you in all aspects of your life such as health care, retirement, housing, etc.
I agree with that 100% :thumbsup:
#42
X-man
Haha. I would be more concerned about my fingers being chopped off if I fell with a string trimmer.
But yeah, hopefully at this point on everyone will be civil adults.
X-man
X-man,
Thanks...I'll find that and vote right now. Hopefully between the poll and this thread we can discuss the many opinions and reasons in a civil manner as to why this is/is not a good idea. BTW, don't you think you may need a ROPS on that string trimmer just in case you lose your balance and fall in a ditch????:0)
Haha. I would be more concerned about my fingers being chopped off if I fell with a string trimmer.
But yeah, hopefully at this point on everyone will be civil adults.
#43
djdicetn
midnite rider,
Man you guys are gonna hate me over this:0)
This is a post that I started so I have elected myself to respond argumentatively with those with differing opinions(and sometimes even with those with the same opinion as me) as to flesh out continued thoughts and statements that otherwise might be overlooked. And remember, I reserve the right to be wrong and have been in the past!!! And some of my replies may be "out of context" and I am open to constructive criticism(I'm a big boy and I can handle it:0)
Sooooooooo, based upon your response above, I go out in my back yard and began target practicing with my 9mm Glock in a subdivision within the city limits and I should not expect authorities, based upon the rules/regulations for discharging firearms, to approach me about my violation??? Remember now, this thread is NOT about gun control or what I just stated but my illustration, to me, is a parallel to what you said about enforcing laws on private property. The seat belt law for automobiles is drafted with the limitation your example mentions, but due to the nature of a commercial company mowing my personal property for hire they, not me, would be held accountable for a law requiring the operator of their ZTR having a ROPS and wearing a seatbelt(again to protect my liability and the lawn care maintenance company's liability).
djdicetn
As I see it if you drive your mower out on a public road as you do a car these laws would be enforcable. What you do on your own property should be up to you and not the government. Seat belt laws being worn in your car are not enforcable by the government on private lands. Now I believe that government wants you dependent on them as then they can have control over you in all aspects of your life such as health care, retirement, housing, etc.
midnite rider,
Man you guys are gonna hate me over this:0)
This is a post that I started so I have elected myself to respond argumentatively with those with differing opinions(and sometimes even with those with the same opinion as me) as to flesh out continued thoughts and statements that otherwise might be overlooked. And remember, I reserve the right to be wrong and have been in the past!!! And some of my replies may be "out of context" and I am open to constructive criticism(I'm a big boy and I can handle it:0)
Sooooooooo, based upon your response above, I go out in my back yard and began target practicing with my 9mm Glock in a subdivision within the city limits and I should not expect authorities, based upon the rules/regulations for discharging firearms, to approach me about my violation??? Remember now, this thread is NOT about gun control or what I just stated but my illustration, to me, is a parallel to what you said about enforcing laws on private property. The seat belt law for automobiles is drafted with the limitation your example mentions, but due to the nature of a commercial company mowing my personal property for hire they, not me, would be held accountable for a law requiring the operator of their ZTR having a ROPS and wearing a seatbelt(again to protect my liability and the lawn care maintenance company's liability).
#44
midnite rider
Yes as long as you as a homeowner or self employed and are not causing harm to anyone else by not wearing your seat belt on private property. In the example of a commercial mowing company with ten or more employees they are already under the rules and laws of OSHA and can be fined for not operating under their safety rules and guidelines. As far as the gun analogy it is already unlawful here to discharge a firearm except in self defense on private property of 3 acres or less. 3 acres or more and it is legal as long as you are 500' from a residential structure but you have to practice in a safe manner so as not to cause harm to adjoining neighbors. One of the major causes of lawsuits for homeowners being sued are dog bites but you do not see muzzles on hardly anybodies dogs.
midnite rider
midnite rider,
Man you guys are gonna hate me over this:0)
This is a post that I started so I have elected myself to respond argumentatively with those with differing opinions(and sometimes even with those with the same opinion as me) as to flesh out continued thoughts and statements that otherwise might be overlooked. And remember, I reserve the right to be wrong and have been in the past!!! And some of my replies may be "out of context" and I am open to constructive criticism(I'm a big boy and I can handle it:0)
Sooooooooo, based upon your response above, I go out in my back yard and began target practicing with my 9mm Glock in a subdivision within the city limits and I should not expect authorities, based upon the rules/regulations for discharging firearms, to approach me about my violation??? Remember now, this thread is NOT about gun control or what I just stated but my illustration, to me, is a parallel to what you said about enforcing laws on private property. The seat belt law for automobiles is drafted with the limitation your example mentions, but due to the nature of a commercial company mowing my personal property for hire they, not me, would be held accountable for a law requiring the operator of their ZTR having a ROPS and wearing a seatbelt(again to protect my liability and the lawn care maintenance company's liability).
Yes as long as you as a homeowner or self employed and are not causing harm to anyone else by not wearing your seat belt on private property. In the example of a commercial mowing company with ten or more employees they are already under the rules and laws of OSHA and can be fined for not operating under their safety rules and guidelines. As far as the gun analogy it is already unlawful here to discharge a firearm except in self defense on private property of 3 acres or less. 3 acres or more and it is legal as long as you are 500' from a residential structure but you have to practice in a safe manner so as not to cause harm to adjoining neighbors. One of the major causes of lawsuits for homeowners being sued are dog bites but you do not see muzzles on hardly anybodies dogs.
#45
jekjr
jekjr
I run a Zero turn on a daily basis. Mine has ROP installed from the factory. I run it in the folded position. I put a mower in some God awful places some times as well. I do my best to run it at slow speeds when on very steep grades. I also have my safety switches working properly on it. In the event of a slow speed roll over the mower is going to shut off instantly. Personally I would rather be free to bail than be tied to the thing. Cutting grass the thing is more dangerous up than it is down as far as I am concerned. I tried it up when I first bought my mower but figured out quick that I was going to tear the world down with it up.
We need no more laws. We do not need anybody riding around on any government payroll harassing a working man trying to catch him infringing on some rule to bleed more money out of him.
We need no more laws. We do not need anybody riding around on any government payroll harassing a working man trying to catch him infringing on some rule to bleed more money out of him.
#46
djdicetn
jekjr,
I hear ya and respect your opinion!!! My question is do you have liability insurance and/or life insurance that protects your spouse(assuming you're hitched) should, God forbid, the worst case scenario happen to you? And have you instructed her to not sue the homeowner or any other entity should that happen? You well know that nowadays "many" laws and regulations are "all about liability"....right???
djdicetn
I run a Zero turn on a daily basis. Mine has ROP installed from the factory. I run it in the folded position. I put a mower in some God awful places some times as well. I do my best to run it at slow speeds when on very steep grades. I also have my safety switches working properly on it. In the event of a slow speed roll over the mower is going to shut off instantly. Personally I would rather be free to bail than be tied to the thing. Cutting grass the thing is more dangerous up than it is down as far as I am concerned. I tried it up when I first bought my mower but figured out quick that I was going to tear the world down with it up.
We need no more laws. We do not need anybody riding around on any government payroll harassing a working man trying to catch him infringing on some rule to bleed more money out of him.
jekjr,
I hear ya and respect your opinion!!! My question is do you have liability insurance and/or life insurance that protects your spouse(assuming you're hitched) should, God forbid, the worst case scenario happen to you? And have you instructed her to not sue the homeowner or any other entity should that happen? You well know that nowadays "many" laws and regulations are "all about liability"....right???
#47
Old Goat
Hold on DJ,
That one is out of context!
Doing something that might kill others, is NOT the same thing as doing things that may kill you.
Charles
Old Goat
midnite rider,
Man you guys are gonna hate me over this:0)
This is a post that I started so I have elected myself to respond argumentatively with those with differing opinions(and sometimes even with those with the same opinion as me) as to flesh out continued thoughts and statements that otherwise might be overlooked. And remember, I reserve the right to be wrong and have been in the past!!! And some of my replies may be "out of context" and I am open to constructive criticism(I'm a big boy and I can handle it:0)
Sooooooooo, based upon your response above, I go out in my back yard and began target practicing with my 9mm Glock in a subdivision within the city limits and I should not expect authorities, based upon the rules/regulations for discharging firearms, to approach me about my violation??? Remember now, this thread is NOT about gun control or what I just stated but my illustration, to me, is a parallel to what you said about enforcing laws on private property. The seat belt law for automobiles is drafted with the limitation your example mentions, but due to the nature of a commercial company mowing my personal property for hire they, not me, would be held accountable for a law requiring the operator of their ZTR having a ROPS and wearing a seatbelt(again to protect my liability and the lawn care maintenance company's liability).
Hold on DJ,
That one is out of context!
Doing something that might kill others, is NOT the same thing as doing things that may kill you.
Charles
#48
djdicetn
Old Goat,
Sorry, I forgot suicide was not against the law:0(
Maybe I should have just asked user midnite rider to specifically quote details about "the rules and laws of OSHA and can be fined for not operating under their safety rules and guidelines" for a "commercial mowing company with ten or more employees". That would have been more in context and I am assuming(not knowing the "business") that ROPS/seat belts are not covered/required by OSHA. If so, the regulatory point is moot and I need to switch gears to OSHA enforcement....right???
djdicetn
Hold on DJ,
That one is out of context!
Doing something that might kill others, is NOT the same thing as doing things that may kill you.
Charles
Old Goat,
Sorry, I forgot suicide was not against the law:0(
Maybe I should have just asked user midnite rider to specifically quote details about "the rules and laws of OSHA and can be fined for not operating under their safety rules and guidelines" for a "commercial mowing company with ten or more employees". That would have been more in context and I am assuming(not knowing the "business") that ROPS/seat belts are not covered/required by OSHA. If so, the regulatory point is moot and I need to switch gears to OSHA enforcement....right???
#49
G
GT182
G
GT182
I'm not a professional lawncare provider and don't own a ZTR mower with ROPS. But... I do mow for people referred to me and charge based on lawn size. Seeing that my Kubota G2000 RC60 is not ROPS equipped, should that exclude me from mowing for hire? I'd like to think not. Seeing there's no ROPS on my machine, I will not mow where I think the home owner's property is unsafe.
And I'd also like to think I've taken away some of the business from a few illegal mowers from south-of-the-border. :biggrin:
And I'd also like to think I've taken away some of the business from a few illegal mowers from south-of-the-border. :biggrin:
#50
djdicetn
GT182,
That Kubota is a lawn tractor and even though some upper-line Kubota, John Deere, etc. "tractors" do come with ROPS, this discussion is centered on the known disposition of a Zero Turn Mower to more easily flip over on a grade based upon it's design compared to a lawn tractor. That's not to say you "cannot" turn over a lawn tractor which further intensifies this discussion for commercial mowers like yourself. Sooooooooo......if your Kubota did turn over what/who do you see liability resting on, should.....God forbid, your family want to sue someone over it? I know that most likely an "official investigation" would rule it as an "accident" where the land owner, etc. would not be "charged" etc. for negligence so maybe this whole topic is "much ado over nothing". I just had to ask users for opinions:0)
djdicetn
I'm not a professional lawncare provider and don't own a ZTR mower with ROPS. But... I do mow for people referred to me and charge based on lawn size. Seeing that my Kubota G2000 RC60 is not ROPS equipped, should that exclude me from mowing for hire? I'd like to think not. Seeing there's no ROPS on my machine, I will not mow where I think the home owner's property is unsafe.
And I'd also like to think I've taken away some of the business from a few illegal mowers from south-of-the-border. :biggrin:
GT182,
That Kubota is a lawn tractor and even though some upper-line Kubota, John Deere, etc. "tractors" do come with ROPS, this discussion is centered on the known disposition of a Zero Turn Mower to more easily flip over on a grade based upon it's design compared to a lawn tractor. That's not to say you "cannot" turn over a lawn tractor which further intensifies this discussion for commercial mowers like yourself. Sooooooooo......if your Kubota did turn over what/who do you see liability resting on, should.....God forbid, your family want to sue someone over it? I know that most likely an "official investigation" would rule it as an "accident" where the land owner, etc. would not be "charged" etc. for negligence so maybe this whole topic is "much ado over nothing". I just had to ask users for opinions:0)
#51
Old Goat
OK, lets assume for one brief time that THEY do make it a law.
HOW do they enforce it OR set a penalty for STUPID?
Old Goat
Old Goat,
Sorry, I forgot suicide was not against the law:0(
Maybe I should have just asked user midnite rider to specifically quote details about "the rules and laws of OSHA and can be fined for not operating under their safety rules and guidelines" for a "commercial mowing company with ten or more employees". That would have been more in context and I am assuming(not knowing the "business") that ROPS/seat belts are not covered/required by OSHA. If so, the regulatory point is moot and I need to switch gears to OSHA enforcement....right???
OK, lets assume for one brief time that THEY do make it a law.
HOW do they enforce it OR set a penalty for STUPID?
#52
djdicetn
Old Goat,
I guess OSHA would need more Federal Funding to hire Lawn Maintenance Compliance patrol officers to patrol the neighborhoods checking to see if the person mowing a yard has a trailer in front of that house which would make all of our taxes go up to hire these Compliance Officers which would make all of us(including myself) hate me forever for even bringing it up:0)
In other words...good question and I don't have a clue!!!
Heck, one of my "pet peeves" is all of the single drivers wanting to go 85mph in the HOV lanes on TN Interstates and almost running over my wife and me on our way to work and home Mon-Fri(the Troopers/Police don't enfoce it and it's like a $10 fine). What a joke here in TN that they even have HOV lanes:0)
djdicetn
OK, lets assume for one brief time that THEY do make it a law.
HOW do they enforce it OR set a penalty for STUPID?
Old Goat,
I guess OSHA would need more Federal Funding to hire Lawn Maintenance Compliance patrol officers to patrol the neighborhoods checking to see if the person mowing a yard has a trailer in front of that house which would make all of our taxes go up to hire these Compliance Officers which would make all of us(including myself) hate me forever for even bringing it up:0)
In other words...good question and I don't have a clue!!!
Heck, one of my "pet peeves" is all of the single drivers wanting to go 85mph in the HOV lanes on TN Interstates and almost running over my wife and me on our way to work and home Mon-Fri(the Troopers/Police don't enfoce it and it's like a $10 fine). What a joke here in TN that they even have HOV lanes:0)
#53
Old Goat
Old Goat
That's the problem now, Federal Funding for this and that to no end to protect STUPID.
AND the idiots who pass the laws don't have sense to know that they cannot pay for it or where it even comes from?
Answer, you and me!
AND the idiots who pass the laws don't have sense to know that they cannot pay for it or where it even comes from?
Answer, you and me!
#54
jekjr
jekjr
I see that this whole thread is about basically one accident that someone died in. It would be interesting how many people actually have been killed or severely injured in roll over accidents per year.
I might be a fatality tomorrow but I honestly have never heard of one in our area. I see people on here talk about how stupid some people are. I personally have cut some hills on a zero turn that we're very steep. I have seen numerous others that have as we'll. I also do not know of a commercial operator in our area that runs with a ROP in the up position. I would not consider myself 10' tall nor bullet proof. I am 56 years old however and have operated numerous different pieces of equipment for basically my entire life with no serious injuries. Most equipment has a fine line as to stability when the envelope is pushed. Learning the feel of the machine and learning it's capabilities are what keeps an operator safe. One of the key things one needs to learn when working terrain that is rough is to slow down. I know from experience that a zero turn is pretty stable on some pretty steep inclines if the operator slows down and takes note of what is happening.
I said it before and I say it again I personally had rather have the seat safety switch working and not be tied to a mower on the event of a roll over. The safety switch will shut it down almost instantly. There is always rough terrain to cut.
As for ROPs many times they will get you hung up in trees and bushes and hurt you as well and if you are tied to the mower with a seat belt you have no where to move.
I might be a fatality tomorrow but I honestly have never heard of one in our area. I see people on here talk about how stupid some people are. I personally have cut some hills on a zero turn that we're very steep. I have seen numerous others that have as we'll. I also do not know of a commercial operator in our area that runs with a ROP in the up position. I would not consider myself 10' tall nor bullet proof. I am 56 years old however and have operated numerous different pieces of equipment for basically my entire life with no serious injuries. Most equipment has a fine line as to stability when the envelope is pushed. Learning the feel of the machine and learning it's capabilities are what keeps an operator safe. One of the key things one needs to learn when working terrain that is rough is to slow down. I know from experience that a zero turn is pretty stable on some pretty steep inclines if the operator slows down and takes note of what is happening.
I said it before and I say it again I personally had rather have the seat safety switch working and not be tied to a mower on the event of a roll over. The safety switch will shut it down almost instantly. There is always rough terrain to cut.
As for ROPs many times they will get you hung up in trees and bushes and hurt you as well and if you are tied to the mower with a seat belt you have no where to move.
#55
AmericanTurf
AmericanTurf
I took that gay *** rops off. Liberals can shove it up there crybaby ***!!
And no I won't die from it. I'm not a stupid *** lib that can't ride a ztr!!
And no I won't die from it. I'm not a stupid *** lib that can't ride a ztr!!
#56
Carscw
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#57
Old Goat
Old Goat
#58
Carscw
Now that's funny
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
Now that's funny
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#59
Old Goat
Old Goat
Wish I could say the same about the one you posted, but I cannot find anything funny about the planned systematic destruction of America!
#60
Carscw
Don't understand what your talking about. I have not posted anything about the destruction of America.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
Wish I could say the same about the one you posted, but I cannot find anything funny about the planned systematic destruction of America!
Don't understand what your talking about. I have not posted anything about the destruction of America.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#61
Old Goat
So, your post was not in reference to the one above it?
Old Goat
I took that gay *** rops off. Liberals can shove it up there crybaby ***!!
And no I won't die from it. I'm not a stupid *** lib that can't ride a ztr!!
So, your post was not in reference to the one above it?
#62
Carscw
Yes it was. But still don't understand your comment towards me.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
So, your post was not in reference to the one above it?
Yes it was. But still don't understand your comment towards me.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#63
Ric
Yeah this whole thread is about an accident in which someone died, a roll over accident. A rollover accident that was 9 times out of 10 caused by the operator himself by operating the mower in conditions that it the mower and operator shouldn't have been in and probably could have been avoided if the individual would have
( Read The Freaking Manual) just for clarification. The thing is and I can't believe I'm agreeing with Carscw but there are just some people who shouldn't be allowed to run a mower of any kind. If you want to avoid these type of things, accidents and Lawsuits it will not be done by the Lawn police, if your interested in making new laws start at the dealers and make a law that requires a sit down with an instructional video on the correct way to operate the mower of choice when purchased, The do's and Do nots of a ZTR, a Stander, Lawn and garden Tractor and so on as well as driving the mower of choice in the lot before being sold. Covering ones butt starts at the manufacturer and the manual they provide and should continue with the dealer and then the operator and using common sense, if all that is neglected.......... STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.
Ric
I see that this whole thread is about basically one accident that someone died in. It would be interesting how many people actually have been killed or severely injured in roll over accidents per year.
I might be a fatality tomorrow but I honestly have never heard of one in our area. I see people on here talk about how stupid some people are. I personally have cut some hills on a zero turn that we're very steep. I have seen numerous others that have as we'll. I also do not know of a commercial operator in our area that runs with a ROP in the up position. I would not consider myself 10' tall nor bullet proof. I am 56 years old however and have operated numerous different pieces of equipment for basically my entire life with no serious injuries. Most equipment has a fine line as to stability when the envelope is pushed. Learning the feel of the machine and learning it's capabilities are what keeps an operator safe. One of the key things one needs to learn when working terrain that is rough is to slow down. I know from experience that a zero turn is pretty stable on some pretty steep inclines if the operator slows down and takes note of what is happening.
I said it before and I say it again I personally had rather have the seat safety switch working and not be tied to a mower on the event of a roll over. The safety switch will shut it down almost instantly. There is always rough terrain to cut.
As for ROPs many times they will get you hung up in trees and bushes and hurt you as well and if you are tied to the mower with a seat belt you have no where to move.
Yeah this whole thread is about an accident in which someone died, a roll over accident. A rollover accident that was 9 times out of 10 caused by the operator himself by operating the mower in conditions that it the mower and operator shouldn't have been in and probably could have been avoided if the individual would have
#64
Old Goat
I am NOT surprized!
Undoubtedly you never wore a uniform of these United States military.
I will go ahead and put you on my ignore list. I recommend you do the same for me!
Old Goat
Yes it was. But still don't understand your comment towards me.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
I am NOT surprized!
Undoubtedly you never wore a uniform of these United States military.
I will go ahead and put you on my ignore list. I recommend you do the same for me!
#65
Carscw
First off are you American turfs dad?
He talks crazy about our government and I post a pic saying the more he talks the more it makes me want to push him down the stairs. And then you start talking crazy.
How is the pic I posted say anything bad about this country?
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
I am NOT surprized!
Undoubtedly you never wore a uniform of these United States military.
I will go ahead and put you on my ignore list. I recommend you do the same for me!
http://s198.photobucket.com/user/Ol...fromitorlearnfromitRafikiTheLionKing.jpg.html
First off are you American turfs dad?
He talks crazy about our government and I post a pic saying the more he talks the more it makes me want to push him down the stairs. And then you start talking crazy.
How is the pic I posted say anything bad about this country?
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#66
djdicetn
Old Goat/Casrcw,
Soooooo...did that ojectionable post mean that user American turf doesn't like me for even bringing this controversial subject up???????:0(
djdicetn
So, your post was not in reference to the one above it?
Old Goat/Casrcw,
Soooooo...did that ojectionable post mean that user American turf doesn't like me for even bringing this controversial subject up???????:0(
#67
djdicetn
Now THAT IS the kind of opinion and reasons why/why not I was looking for!!!!!! Thanks ric(and I tend to agree that "liability" really rests more at the manufacturer and dealer level than at the operator level). What a consumer(Commercially or not) does with any machine(cars, zero turn mowers, etc., etc.) is at their discretion after being diligently advised and notified of appropriate operation of that machine).
djdicetn
Yeah this whole thread is about an accident in which someone died, a roll over accident. A rollover accident that was 9 times out of 10 caused by the operator himself by operating the mower in conditions that it the mower and operator shouldn't have been in and probably been avoided if the individual would have( Read The Freaking Manual) just for clarification. The thing is and I can't believe I'm agreeing with Carscw but there are just some people who shouldn't be allowed to run a mower of any kind. If you want to avoid these type of things, accidents and Lawsuits it will not be done by the Lawn police, if your interested in making new laws start at the dealers and make a law that requires a sit down with an instructional video on the correct way to operate the mower of choice when purchased, The do's and Don't of a ZTR, a Stander, Lawn and garden Tractor and so on as well as driving the mower of choice in the lot before being sold. Covering ones butt starts at the manufacturer and the manual they provide and should continue with the dealer and then the operator and using common sense, if all that is neglected.......... STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.
Now THAT IS the kind of opinion and reasons why/why not I was looking for!!!!!! Thanks ric(and I tend to agree that "liability" really rests more at the manufacturer and dealer level than at the operator level). What a consumer(Commercially or not) does with any machine(cars, zero turn mowers, etc., etc.) is at their discretion after being diligently advised and notified of appropriate operation of that machine).
#68
Ric
I agree the "liability" really rests more at the manufacturer and these manuals are how they cover there behinds and I think steps should be taken by dealers to further the education of the consumer to cover there behinds as well. Instructional videos have been around for years, there's no secret there and if they don't do any better I'd like to see a DVD/CD of operational practices of any piece equipment go with the manual as part of the purchase.
Ric
Yeah this whole thread is about an accident in which someone died, a roll over accident. A rollover accident that was 9 times out of 10 caused the operator himself by operating the mower in conditions that it the mower and operator shouldn't have been in and probably could have been avoided if the individual would have( Read The Freaking Manual) just for clarification. The thing is and I can't believe I'm agreeing with Carscw but there are just some people who shouldn't be allowed to run a mower of any kind. If you want to avoid these type of things, accidents and Lawsuits it will not be done by the Lawn police, if your interested in making new laws start at the dealers and make a law that requires a sit down with an instructional video on the correct way to operate the mower of choice when purchased, The do's and Do nots of a ZTR, a Stander, Lawn and garden Tractor and so on as well as driving the mower of choice in the lot before being sold. Covering ones butt starts at the manufacturer and the manual they provide and should continue with the dealer and then the operator and using common sense, if all that is neglected.......... STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.
Now THAT IS the kind of opinion and reasons why/why not I was looking for!!!!!! Thanks ric(and I tend to agree that "liability" really rests more at the manufacturer and dealer level than at the operator level). What a consumer(Commercially or not) does with any machine(cars, zero turn mowers, etc., etc.) is at their discretion after being diligently advised and notified of appropriate operation of that machine).
I agree the "liability" really rests more at the manufacturer and these manuals are how they cover there behinds and I think steps should be taken by dealers to further the education of the consumer to cover there behinds as well. Instructional videos have been around for years, there's no secret there and if they don't do any better I'd like to see a DVD/CD of operational practices of any piece equipment go with the manual as part of the purchase.
#69
Carscw
Yes he don't like that you brought this up. And old goat don't like me because I said to push turf down the stairs
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
Old Goat/Casrcw,
Soooooo...did that ojectionable post mean that user American turf doesn't like me for even bringing this controversial subject up???????:0(
Yes he don't like that you brought this up. And old goat don't like me because I said to push turf down the stairs
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#70
Ric
You guys need to learn to fight nice. I mean Really it's a hypothetical question.
Ric
Yes he don't like that you brought this up. And old goat don't like me because I said to push turf down the stairs
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
You guys need to learn to fight nice. I mean Really it's a hypothetical question.
#71
djdicetn
Sounds like it's time for a group hug and to agree to sometimes not agree:0)
djdicetn
You guys need to learn to fight nice. I mean Really it's a hypothetical question.
Sounds like it's time for a group hug and to agree to sometimes not agree:0)
#72
Carscw
I been really trying to be nice to every one but you need to stop the silly talk about a group hug. LOL.
And don't know why old goat is mad at me.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Carscw
Sounds like it's time for a group hug and to agree to sometimes not agree:0)
I been really trying to be nice to every one but you need to stop the silly talk about a group hug. LOL.
And don't know why old goat is mad at me.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
#73
djdicetn
Yeah, just a way of saying we need to be respectful of one another's views/opinions. It's toooooo easy when on a computer and not talking face-to-face with someone to disregard their humanity and not stay civil when we disagree.
P..S.
I'm sure user Old Goat will get over it.......I did:0)
djdicetn
I been really trying to be nice to every one but you need to stop the silly talk about a group hug. LOL.
And don't know why old goat is mad at me.
(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Yeah, just a way of saying we need to be respectful of one another's views/opinions. It's toooooo easy when on a computer and not talking face-to-face with someone to disregard their humanity and not stay civil when we disagree.
P..S.
I'm sure user Old Goat will get over it.......I did:0)
#74
exotion
Really first off this is the internet good thing you all are fighting accomplishing nothing but getting your selves angry and nothing really to take out the anger out. Don't know about you but getting angry on the internet and spewing off a bunch of angry words doesn't really make me feel better.
Secondly the manufacture needs to protect themselves from lawsuits because people are stupid. And they don't deserve to get sued over other peoples stupidity.
Thirdly if you are to slow in your brain and decide to not ready the recommendations and instructions in the manual you deserve to roll over in a swell.
Fourth a new law would be impossible to uphold even if they have a old man in a lawn police car handing out tickets you could fight it and more than likely win. So good for them wasting tax payers money.
Fifth how many thousands of ztr mowers have been sold without rops they cannot force you to buy a new one they would only stop selling them without rops if you own one without they can't do anything about it grandfather clause.
exotion
Sounds like it's time for a group hug and to agree to sometimes not agree:0)
Really first off this is the internet good thing you all are fighting accomplishing nothing but getting your selves angry and nothing really to take out the anger out. Don't know about you but getting angry on the internet and spewing off a bunch of angry words doesn't really make me feel better.
Secondly the manufacture needs to protect themselves from lawsuits because people are stupid. And they don't deserve to get sued over other peoples stupidity.
Thirdly if you are to slow in your brain and decide to not ready the recommendations and instructions in the manual you deserve to roll over in a swell.
Fourth a new law would be impossible to uphold even if they have a old man in a lawn police car handing out tickets you could fight it and more than likely win. So good for them wasting tax payers money.
Fifth how many thousands of ztr mowers have been sold without rops they cannot force you to buy a new one they would only stop selling them without rops if you own one without they can't do anything about it grandfather clause.
#75
Old Goat
Excuse me, I was nice.
Old Goat
You guys need to learn to fight nice. I mean Really it's a hypothetical question.
Excuse me, I was nice.
#76
djdicetn
Old Goat,
Well I'm DEFINITELY not going to suggest that you & user Carscw kiss & make up....the analogy of a group hug was bad enough:0) I really couldn't tell who said what that was intentionally offensive(except maybe user American Turf's rebuttal:0)
djdicetn
Excuse me, I was nice.
Old Goat,
Well I'm DEFINITELY not going to suggest that you & user Carscw kiss & make up....the analogy of a group hug was bad enough:0) I really couldn't tell who said what that was intentionally offensive(except maybe user American Turf's rebuttal:0)
#77
M
Mad Mackie
M
Mad Mackie
The thing with ROPS on many different machines to include some mowers and tractors is that it is an OSHA requirement. What determines the point where ROPS is not required is something that I will research. There are other federal agencies also involved with establishing and mandating that personal safety equipment be installed on certain types of machinery. Each of us have our own feelings regarding the installation of or lack of safety equipment on mowers and tractors and certainly we are not all in agreement on this topic.
Initially all ROPS bars installed on ZTRs were not foldable however this regulation was changed allowing a foldable ROPS.
My 2008 Scag Tiger Cub has a non foldable ROPS and I do not plan to remove it as it isn't much higher than the collection system and I have never used the seat belt, my choice. My new Hustler X-ONE has a folding ROPS and it stays folded.
If you have a machine with a ROPS and you don't like it then you have the option of removing it, your choice.
If you have a machine that doesn't have a ROPS bar and you would prefer that it had one, then ask your local dealer if a ROPS is available for your machine and if not then you will need to have a ROPS fabricated and installed. Bear in mind that the ROPS usually requires the use of a particular style seat with a seat belt. Not every metal fabricating company will make an item of this nature however, as they then become a manufacturer with liability hung on them.
Those of you that have a commercial business and employees that operate the company owned machines, I strongly recommend that the required safety equipment remain on the machines, train and encourage the employees to use the equipment properly. Equipment manufacturers, dealers and others know beyond a doubt what happens when an accident happens and the lawyers get involved, enough said on this subject!!!!!
Exercising and practicing common sense while operating any machine is highly recommended. Reading and understanding the operators manual is also highly recommended. Most if not all ZTR operators manuals has specific cautions about the operation of ZTRs, with emphasis regarding operation on hills.
The federal safety regulations are here to stay whether we like it or not!!!! And then the emissions requirements!!!!
Cutting grass sure ain't what it used to be, nor is anything else for that matter!!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
Initially all ROPS bars installed on ZTRs were not foldable however this regulation was changed allowing a foldable ROPS.
My 2008 Scag Tiger Cub has a non foldable ROPS and I do not plan to remove it as it isn't much higher than the collection system and I have never used the seat belt, my choice. My new Hustler X-ONE has a folding ROPS and it stays folded.
If you have a machine with a ROPS and you don't like it then you have the option of removing it, your choice.
If you have a machine that doesn't have a ROPS bar and you would prefer that it had one, then ask your local dealer if a ROPS is available for your machine and if not then you will need to have a ROPS fabricated and installed. Bear in mind that the ROPS usually requires the use of a particular style seat with a seat belt. Not every metal fabricating company will make an item of this nature however, as they then become a manufacturer with liability hung on them.
Those of you that have a commercial business and employees that operate the company owned machines, I strongly recommend that the required safety equipment remain on the machines, train and encourage the employees to use the equipment properly. Equipment manufacturers, dealers and others know beyond a doubt what happens when an accident happens and the lawyers get involved, enough said on this subject!!!!!
Exercising and practicing common sense while operating any machine is highly recommended. Reading and understanding the operators manual is also highly recommended. Most if not all ZTR operators manuals has specific cautions about the operation of ZTRs, with emphasis regarding operation on hills.
The federal safety regulations are here to stay whether we like it or not!!!! And then the emissions requirements!!!!
Cutting grass sure ain't what it used to be, nor is anything else for that matter!!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
#78
X-man
X-man
Hey, remember. I made a poll on this subject.
http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/polls/15355-should-ztr-operators-ticketed-if-rops-bar-removed.html
http://www.lawnmowerforum.com/polls/15355-should-ztr-operators-ticketed-if-rops-bar-removed.html
#79
jekjr
jekjr
The problem is we have thousands of laws too many already. Instead of having new laws we need to get government's nose out of everybody's business. If I feel safe running my zero turn on a steep hillside and have no problem doing it why should you have somebody make a law to stop it? I cut hillsides regularly that are very steep as do numerous others that do what we do for a living. I have had my 222 on hills that it literally slid sideways. I have cut places that you ease it upwards and then ease it backwards to the bottom and ease it upwards again.
I have found one thing on the Kubota 222 that is a hazard that has to be worked around.
The fuel tank is on the left. Therefore the left rear wheel has far more traction than the right one. On a steep incline going down hill it is virtually impossible to turn right if you are not going very slow. The reason being when you pull backwards on the lever to turn right the right wheel will start to slide and the left one will still have traction. Then the natural instinct is to push the left lever forward and pull the right lever backward to make it turn sharper. When you do it will get very fast in a straight line.
The first time mine ever did this it was a definite near miss. I wound up running off a bank into a parking lot. Had it been a highway instead of a parking lot it could have been deadly.
I learned that when you put this mower on this type situation you have to run at a very slow speed and keep the hydra stats working so that the wheels work slow and not let your instincts to turn sharper take over.
I have found one thing on the Kubota 222 that is a hazard that has to be worked around.
The fuel tank is on the left. Therefore the left rear wheel has far more traction than the right one. On a steep incline going down hill it is virtually impossible to turn right if you are not going very slow. The reason being when you pull backwards on the lever to turn right the right wheel will start to slide and the left one will still have traction. Then the natural instinct is to push the left lever forward and pull the right lever backward to make it turn sharper. When you do it will get very fast in a straight line.
The first time mine ever did this it was a definite near miss. I wound up running off a bank into a parking lot. Had it been a highway instead of a parking lot it could have been deadly.
I learned that when you put this mower on this type situation you have to run at a very slow speed and keep the hydra stats working so that the wheels work slow and not let your instincts to turn sharper take over.
#80
djdicetn
Mad Mackie,
Thank you....thank you....thank you!!!!! Now we're getting somewher on this subject!!! The kind of detailed information that you provided about exactly how ROPS were mandated by OSHA for certain tractors, ZTR's etc. is exactly what I was hoping to learn more about as well as pros/cons of enforcement of regulations. So does OSHA have any authority to "enforce" usage by operators? Or do they just make certain that manufacturers include them on mowers that require them? What determines that a "lawn tractor" doesn't require one whereas a larger John Deere tractor(with belly mowing deck) does? That was very intersting that foldable ROPS came "later", with I assume revision of the OSHA regulations. My real interest in starting this thread was to get feedback about the "liability" and if enforcement of regulatory "laws" could potentially "protect" commercial operators firstly from unnecessarily losing their lives and also absolve a homeowner from any liability(as well as the dealer of manufacturer). Can you elaborate a little more on your statement "Equipment manufacturers, dealers and others know beyond a doubt what happens when an accident happens and the lawyers get involved, enough said on this subject!!!!!"???? Personally, I don't have a clue what does or can happen in a case like the operator here in TN flipped the JD ZTR and was killed. Exactly who could his widow sue based upon if there were a ROPS on that John Deere he might not have been killed????? That's what I am after as well as how could the 30-50 mowing fatalities/year be reduced to 3-5???
djdicetn
The thing with ROPS on many different machines to include some mowers and tractors is that it is an OSHA requirement. What determines the point where ROPS is not required is something that I will research. There are other federal agencies also involved with establishing and mandating that personal safety equipment be installed on certain types of machinery. Each of us have our own feelings regarding the installation of or lack of safety equipment on mowers and tractors and certainly we are not all in agreement on this topic.
Initially all ROPS bars installed on ZTRs were not foldable however this regulation was changed allowing a foldable ROPS.
My 2008 Scag Tiger Cub has a non foldable ROPS and I do not plan to remove it as it isn't much higher than the collection system and I have never used the seat belt, my choice. My new Hustler X-ONE has a folding ROPS and it stays folded.
If you have a machine with a ROPS and you don't like it then you have the option of removing it, your choice.
If you have a machine that doesn't have a ROPS bar and you would prefer that it had one, then ask your local dealer if a ROPS is available for your machine and if not then you will need to have a ROPS fabricated and installed. Bear in mind that the ROPS usually requires the use of a particular style seat with a seat belt. Not every metal fabricating company will make an item of this nature however, as they then become a manufacturer with liability hung on them.
Those of you that have a commercial business and employees that operate the company owned machines, I strongly recommend that the required safety equipment remain on the machines, train and encourage the employees to use the equipment properly. Equipment manufacturers, dealers and others know beyond a doubt what happens when an accident happens and the lawyers get involved, enough said on this subject!!!!!
Exercising and practicing common sense while operating any machine is highly recommended. Reading and understanding the operators manual is also highly recommended. Most if not all ZTR operators manuals has specific cautions about the operation of ZTRs, with emphasis regarding operation on hills.
The federal safety regulations are here to stay whether we like it or not!!!! And then the emissions requirements!!!!
Cutting grass sure ain't what it used to be, nor is anything else for that matter!!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:
Mad Mackie,
Thank you....thank you....thank you!!!!! Now we're getting somewher on this subject!!! The kind of detailed information that you provided about exactly how ROPS were mandated by OSHA for certain tractors, ZTR's etc. is exactly what I was hoping to learn more about as well as pros/cons of enforcement of regulations. So does OSHA have any authority to "enforce" usage by operators? Or do they just make certain that manufacturers include them on mowers that require them? What determines that a "lawn tractor" doesn't require one whereas a larger John Deere tractor(with belly mowing deck) does? That was very intersting that foldable ROPS came "later", with I assume revision of the OSHA regulations. My real interest in starting this thread was to get feedback about the "liability" and if enforcement of regulatory "laws" could potentially "protect" commercial operators firstly from unnecessarily losing their lives and also absolve a homeowner from any liability(as well as the dealer of manufacturer). Can you elaborate a little more on your statement "Equipment manufacturers, dealers and others know beyond a doubt what happens when an accident happens and the lawyers get involved, enough said on this subject!!!!!"???? Personally, I don't have a clue what does or can happen in a case like the operator here in TN flipped the JD ZTR and was killed. Exactly who could his widow sue based upon if there were a ROPS on that John Deere he might not have been killed????? That's what I am after as well as how could the 30-50 mowing fatalities/year be reduced to 3-5???
#81
djdicetn
jekjr,
I too am glad it was a parking lot instead of a highway!!!! Did you tell your wife about that incident??? I know everybody will think I'm a henpecked woosie, but if it were me and I told my wife there would either be a career change for me or a divorce:0)
djdicetn
The problem is we have thousands of laws too many already. Instead of having new laws we need to get government's nose out of everybody's business. If I feel safe running my zero turn on a steep hillside and have no problem doing it why should you have somebody make a law to stop it? I cut hillsides regularly that are very steep as do numerous others that do what we do for a living. I have had my 222 on hills that it literally slid sideways. I have cut places that you ease it upwards and then ease it backwards to the bottom and ease it upwards again.
I have found one thing on the Kubota 222 that is a hazard that has to be worked around.
The fuel tank is on the left. Therefore the left rear wheel has far more traction than the right one. On a steep incline going down hill it is virtually impossible to turn right if you are not going very slow. The reason being when you pull backwards on the lever to turn right the right wheel will start to slide and the left one will still have traction. Then the natural instinct is to push the left lever forward and pull the right lever backward to make it turn sharper. When you do it will get very fast in a straight line.
The first time mine ever did this it was a definite near miss. I wound up running off a bank into a parking lot. Had it been a highway instead of a parking lot it could have been deadly.
I learned that when you put this mower on this type situation you have to run at a very slow speed and keep the hydra stats working so that the wheels work slow and not let your instincts to turn sharper take over.
jekjr,
I too am glad it was a parking lot instead of a highway!!!! Did you tell your wife about that incident??? I know everybody will think I'm a henpecked woosie, but if it were me and I told my wife there would either be a career change for me or a divorce:0)
#82
jekjr
Have you ever worked out in the real world?
jekjr
jekjr,
I too am glad it was a parking lot instead of a highway!!!! Did you tell your wife about that incident??? I know everybody will think I'm a henpecked woosie, but if it were me and I told my wife there would either be a career change for me or a divorce:0)
Have you ever worked out in the real world?
#83
jekjr
jekjr
Dj, Any time there is a one size fits all law it normally makes it hard on somebody it was not necessarily designed to make it hard on.
I will give you a quick for instance.
I am going to pick up a camper trailer today in Pensacola Fl. The dealer says that it is a Fl State law that I have to have an equalizer hitch with lift bars on it to leave the lot with that trailer.
I have one but I have not used it in years because it is a pain in the behind to use. It is rated 10,000#'s with 1000# tongue weight. I run a Dodge 2500 truck with a set of Super Springs installed.
The hitch I took out of the receiver to put the hitch on that they required is an Anderson Rapid Hitch that is rated 10,000#'s with 1500# tongue weight.
It took me 45 minutes to locate the hitch and everything that goes with it and get it lubricated and ready to go plus I had to get greasy and then get cleaned up to drive to Pensacola. When we get there it might take a considerable length of time to adjust everything on that hitch to match the trailer I am picking up. With the rapid hitch it would have involved pulling one pin and sliding the hitch up or down and pushing the pin back on and putting the lock back on it.
The Rapid hitch has pulled probably a hundred different trailers since I have had it. I have pulled campers up to 38' long with it. It has been loaded to the max poundage wise on more than one occasion and It has never cause me a problem nor presented a safety issue of any kind.
When I get home I will put the equalizer hitch back in the shed and the Rapid hitch back on and all I will have accomplished is a waste of time and energy and gotten my hands and clothes greasy fooling with the thing.
All because some beuracrat made a law that probably never pulled a trailer in his life. Probably because somebody read an article where somebody hooked a camper to a vehicle with an insufficient hitch on it or was inexperienced at pulling trailers and got on the band wagon to make a difference. Before you start a grass roots effort on anything like that please look for something else to do. Get some more yards to cut or get a job or something besides trying to get more laws passed that will harass somebody who is already dealing with enough harassment from too many rules and regulations already.
I will give you a quick for instance.
I am going to pick up a camper trailer today in Pensacola Fl. The dealer says that it is a Fl State law that I have to have an equalizer hitch with lift bars on it to leave the lot with that trailer.
I have one but I have not used it in years because it is a pain in the behind to use. It is rated 10,000#'s with 1000# tongue weight. I run a Dodge 2500 truck with a set of Super Springs installed.
The hitch I took out of the receiver to put the hitch on that they required is an Anderson Rapid Hitch that is rated 10,000#'s with 1500# tongue weight.
It took me 45 minutes to locate the hitch and everything that goes with it and get it lubricated and ready to go plus I had to get greasy and then get cleaned up to drive to Pensacola. When we get there it might take a considerable length of time to adjust everything on that hitch to match the trailer I am picking up. With the rapid hitch it would have involved pulling one pin and sliding the hitch up or down and pushing the pin back on and putting the lock back on it.
The Rapid hitch has pulled probably a hundred different trailers since I have had it. I have pulled campers up to 38' long with it. It has been loaded to the max poundage wise on more than one occasion and It has never cause me a problem nor presented a safety issue of any kind.
When I get home I will put the equalizer hitch back in the shed and the Rapid hitch back on and all I will have accomplished is a waste of time and energy and gotten my hands and clothes greasy fooling with the thing.
All because some beuracrat made a law that probably never pulled a trailer in his life. Probably because somebody read an article where somebody hooked a camper to a vehicle with an insufficient hitch on it or was inexperienced at pulling trailers and got on the band wagon to make a difference. Before you start a grass roots effort on anything like that please look for something else to do. Get some more yards to cut or get a job or something besides trying to get more laws passed that will harass somebody who is already dealing with enough harassment from too many rules and regulations already.
#84
djdicetn
Jekjr,
Yep, just not mowing lawns(obviously). 43 years in Mainframe IT and fortunately the liklihood of a fatality in my line of work is pretty slim. I guess your wife accepts the risk you take same as if you were a police officer or fireman. I can only hope the income is worth the risk(being a police officer and fireman is more of a calling cause I don't think they make the big bucks).
djdicetn
Have you ever worked out in the real world?
Jekjr,
Yep, just not mowing lawns(obviously). 43 years in Mainframe IT and fortunately the liklihood of a fatality in my line of work is pretty slim. I guess your wife accepts the risk you take same as if you were a police officer or fireman. I can only hope the income is worth the risk(being a police officer and fireman is more of a calling cause I don't think they make the big bucks).
#85
jekjr
I worked over 21 years in Mechanical Maintenance in the pulp and paper industry. My wife has seen the 100+ hour work weeks and understood some of the dangers. Much of my time there was spent in the boiler houses. We operated two of the largest Recovery boilers in the world at that time. They operated 1225# steam. In those years I saw some hurt, some killed, and a lot of near misses that could have been real deadly.
I have worked every where from the woods in the logging industry and construction industry operating equipment primarily. I was cutting grass when I was 10 and driving a farm tractor in the field at 13. I have operated most any kind of farm equipment common to the south. As well as hydraulic cranes up to 35 tons.
I have also worked on and operated skidders and knuckle boom loaders in the woods logging. Before I was 21 I was pulling a low boy with a big truck at times over weight and over size and had even been as far away as Atlanta.
I would not call myself a specialist or professional but more like a jack of all trades. I have been around the block a couple of times as an operator.
In every one of the above name things there are inherit risks and dangers. There are more laws on the books already concerning all of those things than can ever be enforced. Why in the name of God do we need any more laws? All they do is cost honest hard working people money and make lawyers and politicians money.
Many of those rules and regulations are the reason that so many of our jobs have left this country. That and the fact that you can't find people that will work.
Just please don't advocate any more laws, rules, nor regulations for anybody. Some beuracrat might be listening.
jekjr
Jekjr,
Yep, just not mowing lawns(obviously). 43 years in Mainframe IT and fortunately the liklihood of a fatality in my line of work is pretty slim. I guess your wife accepts the risk you take same as if you were a police officer or fireman. I can only hope the income is worth the risk(being a police officer and fireman is more of a calling cause I don't think they make the big bucks).
I worked over 21 years in Mechanical Maintenance in the pulp and paper industry. My wife has seen the 100+ hour work weeks and understood some of the dangers. Much of my time there was spent in the boiler houses. We operated two of the largest Recovery boilers in the world at that time. They operated 1225# steam. In those years I saw some hurt, some killed, and a lot of near misses that could have been real deadly.
I have worked every where from the woods in the logging industry and construction industry operating equipment primarily. I was cutting grass when I was 10 and driving a farm tractor in the field at 13. I have operated most any kind of farm equipment common to the south. As well as hydraulic cranes up to 35 tons.
I have also worked on and operated skidders and knuckle boom loaders in the woods logging. Before I was 21 I was pulling a low boy with a big truck at times over weight and over size and had even been as far away as Atlanta.
I would not call myself a specialist or professional but more like a jack of all trades. I have been around the block a couple of times as an operator.
In every one of the above name things there are inherit risks and dangers. There are more laws on the books already concerning all of those things than can ever be enforced. Why in the name of God do we need any more laws? All they do is cost honest hard working people money and make lawyers and politicians money.
Many of those rules and regulations are the reason that so many of our jobs have left this country. That and the fact that you can't find people that will work.
Just please don't advocate any more laws, rules, nor regulations for anybody. Some beuracrat might be listening.
#86
djdicetn
jekjr,
I respect your opinion and have a high degree of respect for you replying with some career history background sans any "blasting" of me for my opinion. I really should have thought through this topic and how I proposed it(obviously a law to enforce at the operator level was not wise based upon other responders and the "poll" thread where I'm the ONLY "Yes" vote:0)
Actually laws, rules and regulations did not prompt me to start this discussion just never thought about it until I saw the JD ZTR on the news without a ROPS where the operator died from a rollover. My first reaction was....if the guy had had a ROPS he wouldn't have gotten killed. Therefore I came here to discuss that and a "law governing professional lawn care maintenance companies' was my first thought. Several users, like user Ric and others, have added some clarification about the best preventive measures being more effective at the manufacturer and/or dealer for "safety training". I don't really know if there's anything that would help reduce fatalities(like they say, you can't regulate STUPID:0)
djdicetn
I worked over 21 years in Mechanical Maintenance in the pulp and paper industry. My wife has seen the 100+ hour work weeks and understood some of the dangers. Much of my time there was spent in the boiler houses. We operated two of the largest Recovery boilers in the world at that time. They operated 1225# steam. In those years I saw some hurt, some killed, and a lot of near misses that could have been real deadly.
I have worked every where from the woods in the logging industry and construction industry operating equipment primarily. I was cutting grass when I was 10 and driving a farm tractor in the field at 13. I have operated most any kind of farm equipment common to the south. As well as hydraulic cranes up to 35 tons.
I have also worked on and operated skidders and knuckle boom loaders in the woods logging. Before I was 21 I was pulling a low boy with a big truck at times over weight and over size and had even been as far away as Atlanta.
I would not call myself a specialist or professional but more like a jack of all trades. I have been around the block a couple of times as an operator.
In every one of the above name things there are inherit risks and dangers. There are more laws on the books already concerning all of those things than can ever be enforced. Why in the name of God do we need any more laws? All they do is cost honest hard working people money and make lawyers and politicians money.
Many of those rules and regulations are the reason that so many of our jobs have left this country. That and the fact that you can't find people that will work.
Just please don't advocate any more laws, rules, nor regulations for anybody. Some beuracrat might be listening.
jekjr,
I respect your opinion and have a high degree of respect for you replying with some career history background sans any "blasting" of me for my opinion. I really should have thought through this topic and how I proposed it(obviously a law to enforce at the operator level was not wise based upon other responders and the "poll" thread where I'm the ONLY "Yes" vote:0)
Actually laws, rules and regulations did not prompt me to start this discussion just never thought about it until I saw the JD ZTR on the news without a ROPS where the operator died from a rollover. My first reaction was....if the guy had had a ROPS he wouldn't have gotten killed. Therefore I came here to discuss that and a "law governing professional lawn care maintenance companies' was my first thought. Several users, like user Ric and others, have added some clarification about the best preventive measures being more effective at the manufacturer and/or dealer for "safety training". I don't really know if there's anything that would help reduce fatalities(like they say, you can't regulate STUPID:0)
#87
G
GT182
My 2 cents.... It's solely operator's liability to operate his machine safely. ROPS or no ROPS. Granted the manufacturer's put them on ZTRs and lawn tractors, but it all falls on the owner/operator for the safe operation of their machine. Period! The manufacture installs it but they cannot be held accountable for how someome operates the machine.
And yes Kubota sells B series tractors with ROPS..... possibly other tractors too. Same for John Deere. My GS2000 was built before ROPS, but I imagine if it was still made today it would have ROPS on it.
I lost a couple of neighbors back in the 70s from their MTD and JD mowers rolling over a river bank from being too close, and them drowning. One was a man and the other a woman that we knew well.
G
GT182
GT182,
Sooooooooo......if your Kubota did turn over what/who do you see liability resting on, should.....God forbid, your family want to sue someone over it? I know that most likely an "official investigation" would rule it as an "accident" where the land owner, etc. would not be "charged" etc. for negligence so maybe this whole topic is "much ado over nothing". I just had to ask users for opinions:0)
My 2 cents.... It's solely operator's liability to operate his machine safely. ROPS or no ROPS. Granted the manufacturer's put them on ZTRs and lawn tractors, but it all falls on the owner/operator for the safe operation of their machine. Period! The manufacture installs it but they cannot be held accountable for how someome operates the machine.
And yes Kubota sells B series tractors with ROPS..... possibly other tractors too. Same for John Deere. My GS2000 was built before ROPS, but I imagine if it was still made today it would have ROPS on it.
I lost a couple of neighbors back in the 70s from their MTD and JD mowers rolling over a river bank from being too close, and them drowning. One was a man and the other a woman that we knew well.
#88
jekjr
Better yet, why any law period. That is my issue here we already have too many laws. Drop a few instead of adding any.
jekjr
jekjr,
I respect your opinion and have a high degree of respect for you replying with some career history background sans any "blasting" of me for my opinion. I really should have thought through this topic and how I proposed it(obviously a law to enforce at the operator level was not wise based upon other responders and the "poll" thread where I'm the ONLY "Yes" vote:0)
Actually laws, rules and regulations did not prompt me to start this discussion just never thought about it until I saw the JD ZTR on the news without a ROPS where the operator died from a rollover. My first reaction was....if the guy had had a ROPS he wouldn't have gotten killed. Therefore I came here to discuss that and a "law governing professional lawn care maintenance companies' was my first thought. Several users, like user Ric and others, have added some clarification about the best preventive measures being more effective at the manufacturer and/or dealer for "safety training". I don't really know if there's anything that would help reduce fatalities(like they say, you can't regulate STUPID:0)
Better yet, why any law period. That is my issue here we already have too many laws. Drop a few instead of adding any.
#89
G
GT182
Regulate? I actually boils down to... "You Can't Fix Stupid! Period!" And that also goes for the idiots making the laws. :wink:
G
GT182
jekjr,
I don't really know if there's anything that would help reduce fatalities(like they say, you can't regulate STUPID:0)
Regulate? I actually boils down to... "You Can't Fix Stupid! Period!" And that also goes for the idiots making the laws. :wink:
#90
M
Muhammad
M
Muhammad
Hi Guys,
Please keep the discussions civil! No insults and profanity if you can help it. :thumbsup:
Please keep the discussions civil! No insults and profanity if you can help it. :thumbsup:
#91
Ric
I agree You Can't Fix Stupid nor can you fix human nature. You could do like I suggested earlier with an instructional video and the do's and do nots and all of that and it would be great but the fact is people are going to do what people do. Will new laws fix this problem, the answer is NO. There are laws against speeding but does it stop the problem on our highways and people being killed, NO. Nor do any laws that we have stop people from breaking them. Use common sense and worry about you and not the guy down the road.
Ric
Regulate? I actually boils down to... "You Can't Fix Stupid! Period!" And that also goes for the idiots making the laws. :wink:
I agree You Can't Fix Stupid nor can you fix human nature. You could do like I suggested earlier with an instructional video and the do's and do nots and all of that and it would be great but the fact is people are going to do what people do. Will new laws fix this problem, the answer is NO. There are laws against speeding but does it stop the problem on our highways and people being killed, NO. Nor do any laws that we have stop people from breaking them. Use common sense and worry about you and not the guy down the road.
#92
jekjr
jekjr
No disrespect meant to anybody nor jabs meant. However there is only thing that will fix problems like roll over accidents and so forth. That is experience. You can watch videos and read books and look at brochures forever but sitting in the seat and operating the controls is what makes an operator. I have seen experienced operators operate equipment and put it in places and do things with it on a daily basis with no problems that the engineers that write the manuals say it won't do. I have also seen operators that did less Not know the machinery that would destroy the equipment and themselves on level ground with nothing to cause a problem. It is more of a knowing knowledge than a learning knowledge if that makes sense. Some might say a heart knowledge that is only gained by doing over and over.
I remember when I was a kid I would go to the woods with my grandfather. In those days they hurled pulp wood in 6' lengths stacked crosswise on a truck. They drove the trucks in the woods and loaded them and drove them out. There were some older men in the crew that would walk the ground where the trucks were going in. They had a kind of bouncy way that they walked. When they would hit a certain place they would mark it. They could tell you immediately when they walked across it whether or not a loaded truck would go across it without sinking. They could tell you how much wood could be put on the truck and it still come out. They just knew because they had done it so much.
That is the way with operating most any equipment in less than desirable conditions. It takes experience. Sadly today we try to legislate safety instead of learning the equipment.
Anybody that operates equipment has to put it in marginal places at times. At the end of the day knowing the machine and what it will and won't do is what will bring you home alive.
We all want to be as safe as we possibly can.
I remember when I was a kid I would go to the woods with my grandfather. In those days they hurled pulp wood in 6' lengths stacked crosswise on a truck. They drove the trucks in the woods and loaded them and drove them out. There were some older men in the crew that would walk the ground where the trucks were going in. They had a kind of bouncy way that they walked. When they would hit a certain place they would mark it. They could tell you immediately when they walked across it whether or not a loaded truck would go across it without sinking. They could tell you how much wood could be put on the truck and it still come out. They just knew because they had done it so much.
That is the way with operating most any equipment in less than desirable conditions. It takes experience. Sadly today we try to legislate safety instead of learning the equipment.
Anybody that operates equipment has to put it in marginal places at times. At the end of the day knowing the machine and what it will and won't do is what will bring you home alive.
We all want to be as safe as we possibly can.
#93
djdicetn
I agree wholeheartedly and will try to be nice!!!!!!!:0)
[
djdicetn
Hi Guys,
Please keep the discussions civil! No insults and profanity if you can help it. :thumbsup:
I agree wholeheartedly and will try to be nice!!!!!!!:0)