Just heard today that Black and Decker / Stanley bought MTD

CLStout

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Threads
12
Messages
130
  • / Just heard today that Black and Decker / Stanley bought MTD
Yeah, I don't know if we're being lied to, or they have changed the way hp and torque is measured. Maybe someone can chime in.

You would think that 12hp extra would make for a mower that would run through anything. The only thing I didn't like about the old Sears riding mower was the recoil starter.
 

StarTech

Lawn Royalty
Top Poster Of Month
Joined
Feb 19, 2020
Threads
93
Messages
11,599
  • / Just heard today that Black and Decker / Stanley bought MTD
Well when upgraded my Yard Machines 42" from the wimpy 16.5 hp engine to the 21 hp that is currently on it, it did make a world of difference so much so that had upgrade the 1/2" deck belt to a 5/8" belt. Now it walks through 12"+ grass Only have slow down due deck is needing to clear itself. Probably would not need to do that if I change those mulchers out to high lift blades.
 

CLStout

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Threads
12
Messages
130
  • / Just heard today that Black and Decker / Stanley bought MTD
Maybe someone can answer this question that's been on my mind lately. Is there any correlation between the hp rating of a particular engine and the size of the mower deck? I had a riding mower several years ago (Ranch King) that was an 18.5hp engine, but the deck was 46". My Ariens is a 20hp with a 42" deck. Is there some way that the factory decides the deck size, and is it dependent on engine hp?
 

ILENGINE

Lawn Royalty
Joined
May 6, 2010
Threads
44
Messages
10,776
  • / Just heard today that Black and Decker / Stanley bought MTD
Maybe someone can answer this question that's been on my mind lately. Is there any correlation between the hp rating of a particular engine and the size of the mower deck? I had a riding mower several years ago (Ranch King) that was an 18.5hp engine, but the deck was 46". My Ariens is a 20hp with a 42" deck. Is there some way that the factory decides the deck size, and is it dependent on engine hp?
The truth is horsepower sells mowers. And your 18.5 and 20 hp could be the same engine with different ratings. When I was growing up a 42 inch was typically a 10-12 hp and a 48 was 14-16 hp.
 

bertsmobile1

Lawn Royalty
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Threads
65
Messages
24,995
  • / Just heard today that Black and Decker / Stanley bought MTD
When I was young, my dad bought a new Sears riding mower. It was, compared to today, a bare bones machine. It was 8hp, 3 speed transmission, pull start, etc. That 8hp mower would cut through the highest grass without bogging down. It would climb some serious hills, too. And if I would put it in 3rd gear, hold in the clutch, and throttle it up, once I dumped the clutch I could get the front wheels off the ground. Now my 20hp mower bogs in grass that's not that high. That 12hp difference. I don't understand what's changed. I go from an 8hp single cylinder to a 20hp v-twin with what seems like less power. Have they come up with a different way to calculate hp?
The engines are rated to 75% of the total load or to put it another way the engines are 25% bigger than they need to be.
However Hp is measured on a dyno and is simply the amount of power an engine can generate under a specific ( low ) load , often almost no load at all .
Dynos can not put a shock load on the engine that is the job of a water brake and the water brake tests shows the inertial characteristics of the engine and these are not directly proportional to Hp but are proportional to torque .
To understand this google Hp vs Torque , lots of good stuff on the web to explain the difference.
This is why push mower engines are now rated by their torque which is a measure of the amount of work an engine can do .
A 6 Hp 2 stroke has near twice the torque as a 6 Hp 4 stroke which is why my 125 cc 5.2 Hp Victa 24" mower can power through stuff that a 160cc 21" Honda simply can not cut
Down side is it uses double the fuel per hour so you have to push fast to get good fuel economy.

Older engines were originally designed with slide rules so were way over engineered which is why they last for so long .
Older engines have much heavier crankshafts and few have counter weights to damp out vibrations so all of the torque the engine generates is available to the mower.
Those anti vibration counter weights gobble up near 30% of an engines power so the get the same power aa anti-vibe engine needs to be around 25% bigger capacity

Mechanical gear boxes and blade engagements consume far less power than hydro drives & electric PTO's
So old mowers with shakey engines and all mechanical drive trains could spin bigger decks with smaller engines.
Clearest example of just how much is the MTD line up
If you look at all their mowers with the same deck size
The one with the variable drive & manual deck will have a much smaller engine
The exact same mower with a hydro or electric PTO will have a bigger engine
And the one with the electric PTO & hydro will have an engine that is bigger still

Electric PTO's pull 2 to 4 amps and that energy has to come from the engine on top of the load from the blades pumping air & cutting grass and the tranny pushing things along .

Then there are things like the reduction of blade tip speed .
Faster spinning blades have smaller flutes thus less air drag and due to the higher speed more inertial energy so are less affected by the resistance the grass presents.
Then there are other things.
MY 8/32 Cox , the 8/30 Rover & Greenfields all have solid cast iron engine pulleys that go from 10 to 16 lbs so again they store a massive amount of energy .

The killer is the fixed timing because fixed timing relies on the stored inertia to accelerate the engine when extra power is required which is why the Kohlers with variable timing that JD used cut so well.
Down side is they are expensive & prone to electrical failures on an engine with a fairly primitive electrical system and small battery
 
Last edited:

CLStout

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Threads
12
Messages
130
  • / Just heard today that Black and Decker / Stanley bought MTD
Wow, that was very informative!
 

bertsmobile1

Lawn Royalty
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Threads
65
Messages
24,995
  • / Just heard today that Black and Decker / Stanley bought MTD
FWIW
I play with old ( very old ) motorcycles
SO I have a 750cc V twin rated at 7.5 Hp because being a side valve it is effectively limited to 7:1 compression & 5000 rpm
The exact same engine with overhead valves is rated at 11 Hp because it can rev to 8000 rpm
They both have the same peak torque but the SV gets there at 2750 rpm & the OHV doesn't get there till 5200 rpm
Basically HP is rpm x peak torque or torque x rpm at the end of the torque plateau & both x a fudge factor to keep the numbers small .
There are several dozen formulas for working Hp out as one would expect considering Hp numbers date back to the introduction of steam powered engines .

This is why the EU went to torque rating over Hp rating
a 100 cc engine spinning at 20,000 could have the same Hp rating as 1000cc engine spinning at 2000 rpm but their torques would be drastically different .
And unless tou are powering a clock then it is torque that does the work .
 

sgkent

Lawn Addict
Joined
Sep 27, 2017
Threads
33
Messages
1,695
  • / Just heard today that Black and Decker / Stanley bought MTD
I don't know if it has been said but HP is basically torque times the RPM times a factor. If you have an engine that puts out say 10 HP at 2800 RPM, and you make some changes in cam, carb, exhaust etc., so it now runs at 3400 RPM, the HP will probably go way up because the torque will be about the same due to the piston area and chamber size being the same. When that new engine is running at 2800 RPM it will still only put out about 10 HP, unless the cam and carb are too much in which case it may put out less power. All engines are zero HP when they are turned off. Larger bore, higher RPM, more compression = more HP. Torque is what turns the pulley driving you. It has to do with physics. A flake of paint traveling at 35,000 mph has about as much energy stored in it as a VW bug doing 60 MPH.
 

CLStout

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Threads
12
Messages
130
  • / Just heard today that Black and Decker / Stanley bought MTD
Interesting info.
 
Top