Engine How does my solenoid work? Unable to start.

John Ambrosia

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Most if not all newer Scag machines have a relay in the cranking circuit. This relay is usually located close to the key switch. When all the safety circuits are in the correct position for engine cranking, the electronic control module will ground the relay and when the key switch is in the start position, the relay will close and allow electrical power to go to the starter solenoid which in turn will close the high amperage switch internal to it and sends battery power to the starter motor.
On the Scag website on the left side is a link to manuals. You need the model and serial number and search thru to get the correct manual for your specific machine. Toward the end of the parts portion of these manuals is a section of electrical systems and then wiring diagrams.
Most of the cranking problems on these machines can be traced to the cranking relay or the seat switch.
Mad Mackie in CT

Thank you for your time and effort. I will be getting a multimeter today and will spend the next few days trying to trace the problem. I will concentrate on the areas you mention. I will likely have further questions and need more help. Thanks again.
 

John Ambrosia

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Use this procedure along with IlEngines instructions and you should be able to track down the problem. As for a multimeter, I would suggest the best one you can afford.



Electrical* problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. * How well you understand basic electricity.
2. *What tools you have and know how to use.
3. *How well you follow directions.
4. *You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.

Remember we cannot see what you are doing. *You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. *You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. *The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. *If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. *These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. *Now let's solve this problem.

First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and *voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good.*

Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. *One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.*

Third, *check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. *If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. *If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. *If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.*

Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). *If you have power what is the voltage?

Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again). *If you have power what is the voltage?

Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.

After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. *At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. *Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.

Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. *If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. *Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.

I will do my best to answer your questions in the order you have raised them.

First, I have checked all three of the fuses that are shown on my wiring diagram. One is connected to the red wire to the starter and the other two are part of a harness near the key switch. All three fuses are good and intact. I am unaware of any other fuses; if there are any other fuses, please advise. Battery connections are clean. Voltage across the battery is 14v.

Second, there are 14v from the battery to the large terminal to the solenoid.

Third, there is no power at the small terminal of the solenoid with the key in the start position. Solenoid connections are clean.

Fourth, there is no power the the other large terminal on the solenoid while holding the key in the start position

Fifth, there is no power at the starter while holding the key in the start position.

Sixth, battery ground circuit is good.

Also, I have tried to test the key switch. I did not find a good wiring diagram of the key switch itself in the operator's manual, so the information I have based my testing on was obtained on line from other sources. I will describe and if I am in error please point it out and direct me otherwise. My key switch has 6 terminals. A single yellow wire is connected to one of the spade terminals. A plug is connected to the remaining 5 spade terminals. With the key in the off position, I have continuity between the G and M terminals. With the key in the lights position, I have continuity between the B and L terminals. With the key in the run position, I have continuity between the B and S terminals. I am not sure what the yellow wire is and did not include it in any of my switch testing. Should I have? If this switch testing was in error, please advise.

Also, I was unable to demonstrate continuity between the green wire at the the key switch and the green wire at the starter solenoid.

Lastly, I have tested all the safety switches I know how to test, namely the right and left handle neutral switches, the seat switch, and the brake interlock switch. I am unsure as to how to test the PTO switch, but I have a second mower and I have examined its PTO switch and the continuity pattern seems to be similar. However, I would appreciate more specific instructions as to how to accurately test it.

The green solenoid wire coming off the key switch connects to a relay and then appears to go to a module plug. Can anyone give me instructions on how to test either of these? As a last resort, I can take the relay out of my other mower and put in the bad one and see if it works, but there should be a way to outright test it.

Again, thanks to all who have contributed on this thread. I think I'm getting there and I've learned a lot along the way, and when it's not frustrating, it's fun.
 

Rivets

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After the tests you did we now have a starting point to solve this problem. We now we must start between step 2 and 3. I would like you to test the B terminal on the switch for 12V. If you do not have voltage, we need to find out why? If you have voltage, then you will need to have someone turn the key to thevstart position and check for voltage on the S terminal of the switch. Report back.
 

Fish

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To make things more clear, so that we are all in tune. There are usually 3 positions of a keyswitch, but your mentioned a Light position, so yours has 4 positions.

For clarity, the key turned all of the way left is off.

The key turned to the first position is in the "Run" position,

If your switch has another run{w light} position that would be next

The last position, which springs back when let go, Let us call it {crank} position'

Also, remove the switch from the plate, so you can get to the back and check for voltage with the switch plugged in.


Now, with one lead grounded to the frame, set the multimeter to dc voltage and take a reading at the B terminal on the switch, what does it read?

Now, turn the key to the run position, and take readings at the other terminals. Voltage at which terminals?

Now, with key to the "crank" position, does the "s" terminal show voltage?
 
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Fish

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Her is the diagram of the back of the keyswitch from a parts catalog.
 

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John Ambrosia

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After the tests you did we now have a starting point to solve this problem. We now we must start between step 2 and 3. I would like you to test the B terminal on the switch for 12V. If you do not have voltage, we need to find out why? If you have voltage, then you will need to have someone turn the key to thevstart position and check for voltage on the S terminal of the switch. Report back.

Sorry for the delay but work kept me away for a while.
1) I tested the B terminal and got 12.5 volts.
2) I tested the S terminal with the key turned and got 12.48 volts.
 

John Ambrosia

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Messages
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To make things more clear, so that we are all in tune. There are usually 3 positions of a keyswitch, but your mentioned a Light position, so yours has 4 positions.

For clarity, the key turned all of the way left is off.

The key turned to the first position is in the "Run" position,

If your switch has another run{w light} position that would be next

The last position, which springs back when let go, Let us call it {crank} position'

Also, remove the switch from the plate, so you can get to the back and check for voltage with the switch plugged in.


Now, with one lead grounded to the frame, set the multimeter to dc voltage and take a reading at the B terminal on the switch, what does it read?

Now, turn the key to the run position, and take readings at the other terminals. Voltage at which terminals?

Now, with key to the "crank" position, does the "s" terminal show voltage?

All three positions tested regestered 12.5 volts.
 

Rivets

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You say you have 12V at the S terminal on the key switch. In step 3 you had 0V at the small terminal on the solenoid, when the key is in the start position. This would indicate that one of your safety switches between the key and solenoid is not closing. What you are going to do now is start at the key switch and trace the wires, checking at each connection to see where the voltage stops. When you find that you have voltage on one side of a switch, but not on the other side, jump this switch and try starting. This way you will diagnose the bad component or connection. Remember what I said in the troubleshooting procedure, DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING. Get a buddy to help you and have patience, electrical troubleshooting can get very frustrating, plus double check everything. It may take ten minutes or five hours. Post back if you need more help.
 

exotion

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This is why I don't do electrical lol
 
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