Great ethanol warning

[smhardesty]

Because when E10 87 sits, it'll end up MUCH lower than 87 in time. I didn't do any testing to prove this - I can just tell by how my equipment runs. My zero turn in my avatar would KNOCK super loudly when first started. That first "pop" was a loud knock on that old fuel. The octane rating had dropped BIG time. Never had that problem with fresh 87 or premium. Another thing is, up here in MA we have winter blend, and summer blend fuels. Winter blend is much more volatile. So that's another part of the equation. I believe I filled that barrel in November the year prior, so that would be winter blend - more prone to knock in the summer heat.

OK. I see what you were saying now. I also have no idea about the mechanics and chemistry of fuel. I'd have no way to test such things either. I wonder how much difference it is going to make with pure unleaded being in all my OPE this winter. For that matter, any and all of the equipment I am refurbishing for resell also has pure unleaded in it. Maybe the customers will be a little happier when they fire the equipment up come spring.
.

 

[smhardesty]

Simpler to buy gas line de-icer from your local auto store. Comes in a 6 pack of small sealed bottles. Dump one into the tank every 2-3 fills and away goes any issue with difficulty with small amounts of water in the fuel system. Any significant amount of water in the fuel system will tend to freeze around here and good luck when that happens! Waiting until Springtime is one method. Prevention is highly recommended.

Never heard that one before. Do you have any idea how well that would work on a small engine that has had water in it? I usually pull the tank, fuel lines, and carburetor to remove excess water. If the engine is still running, even poorly, I wonder how well that trick would work to remove what water is in the system.
.

 

[ILENGINE]

You got that exactly right. Knowing where you are located tells me you are aware of the ethanol plant in Palestine. I was privy to a lot of conversations between farmers about how much they were going to invest in the plant to be sure it was built locally. Those farmers aren't stupid. They didn't support the building of the plant for grins and giggles. I made a similar comment about farmers in a previous post. If I was a farmer I probably would have done the same thing. I now see the long lines of trucks at that plant waiting to dump corn in the pit. Those farmers aren't delivering to that plant just for fun. The plant normally offers a slight premium over other grain elevators in the area. Local farmers can now realize the higher price of corn locally instead of driving all the way to the river.
.

More familiar with the Peoria plant. Had a couple uncles retire from there. Some there when they made corn syrup.

 

[TobyU]

All small engines built after 2009 are designed to run on E10 (10% or less) ethanol fuel. Use a fuel stabilizer when storing the engine for more than a few months. The best way is to use the fuel stabilizer in the tank and then run the engine completely out of fuel. (The fuel stabilizer will coat the internal parts and keep the aluminum from oxidizing)
If your engine is 2007 or older you should run non-ethanol fuel. (E10 can burn the valves)
If your engine is a 1978 or older you should run non-ethanol fuel and add a lead additive (unless the valves have been replaced with hardened valves)
Small engines with EFI use a sealed fuel system so a fuel stabilizer is not needed but I still recommend using it for long-term storage.
If your car is 2001 or newer it is designed to run on E15 fuel. Running straight gas may increase the fuel mileage a small amount. The EFI automatically adjusts the fuel mixture. If your car has a yellow gas cap or a flex-fuel badge on the rear it's also designed to run on E85.
Ethanol absorbs moisture so if you store your equipment in a controlled humidity environment you won't have any issues. If you store your fuel in an approved, sealed container you won't have any issues (though I still add Seafoam in the winter)
If you have old fuel just put it in your vehicle - it doesn't care and the EFI will automatically adjust.

I agree with a lot of this but not all of it has been my experience. It doesn't matter that Angie's were designed to handle 10% ethanol are not after a certain year. That just means the rubber and plastic parts are supposed to be a little bit more resistant to deterioration it doesn't have anything to do with the actual design of the carburetor bowls etc so it makes no difference with the problems we have with starting after they sit. This is proven by the fact that there is an epidemic problem without door power equipment not starting and it's always feel related.
Now having said this it's not just because of ethanol. Someone else touched on this there's lots of additives in the fuel and fuel is just junk compared to what it used to be. It's not really the ethanol's fault but everybody blames it on ethanol.
It's simply that gas isn't as good as it was in 1980 or 85 or even 95. If we could go back in time and get a gallon of 1988 unleaded fuel and then mix it so it's 10% ethanol it would last far longer sitting in your equipment in the off season and not give nearly as many problems as the current fuel with 10% ethanol does.
Ethanol actually helps in some instances because it does absorb the fuel and as long as you run the machines frequently enough you will burn that all out. If you never use any fuel line antifreeze or anything in your tank over the years you can accumulate a layer to even maybe a quarter inch of water at the bottom of your tank because gas always floats on top of water and most but this various due to tank design and what type of carburetor. On the old Briggs & strattons with the metal tank it sucked from down near the bottom but not all the way on the bottom. Most tanks are gravity Fed so the nipple on the bottom of the tank is at the very bottom so if you have any water it's going to go straight to your carburetor first and probably create a no start. Many of the riders especially zero turns have a dip tube that sucks the fuel down near the bottom of the tank about an inch off the bottom so it's not gravity fed out of the bottom. So there's no real consistency.

 

[Hammermechanicman]

Just say NO to E-10.

Hold on there hombre. You trying to cut into my best revenue stream? Ethanol makes me money.

 

[oldsquare1]

I guess this is the best place for this. If not, feel free to move it where it should be.

I have had a few discussions with people recently about ethanol. A couple of the guys I talked with flat out disputed that ethanol causes any problems in internal combustion engines. It just so happens that both of them are farmers that grow corn. Strange, isn't it? LOL! After what my own automotive mechanic has told me and what I have seen inside carbs on small engines that have sat for extended periods with an ethanol blend in them, I'm pretty sure ethanol isn't really good for ANY internal combustion engine. I'm doubly sure it's not good for small engines that sit in the shed for 6 months at a time. That's especially true for any engine that the owner does nothing to prepare the equipment for winter storage. Anyway, I found the screenshot below while searching for additional info on ethanol blended gas. I think it explains the harm that blended gas can cause in a really simplified, yet informative, manner. I intend to print this on an 8"x11" sheet of card stock, stuff it inside a clear, protective sleeve, and then staple it to one of the walls in my garage. I do have a couple of plastic gas caps with symbols indicating that ONLY 5% or 10% ethanol blend is acceptable and also shows that 15% is NOT acceptable.

I did get some good news regarding gasoline available in my area. I thought there was no place in town to buy straight unleaded. My dentist actually told me about a place that offers pure unleaded. He has refused to put blended gas in any of his vehicles or in any of his OPE. One of the two truck stops we have in town has one, single pump that is for straight unleaded. It costs an extra 10 cents a gallon, give or take, but with gas at $3.25 to $3.50, what difference does a dime a gallon make? LOL! I'll be buying 100% of my gas from there effective immediately. I'm going to be REAL curious to see what happens to my mileage. I keep great records of every fill up in the car, so should be able to detect any change in mileage. We'll see.

Oh, and the second point in the screenshot is exactly why I run a can of Seafoam though my car pretty regularly. I know there are other products that will do the same thing, or even better, but since I use Seafoam for so many other things that's what I stick in the car. I was just told recently that the best thing to use for small amounts of water in a vehicle's gas tank is isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores. I've never tried it, but might get a little to keep on hand. I haven't yet researched it, but I'm wondering what the difference is between the isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores and isopropyl alcohol sold at pharmacies or even Walmart. Is it the same thing?

View attachment 63250

The included attachment pic shows 4 carb bowls from identical engines which were started once a month for 18 months. Top left had only non-eth gas. The other 3 had "regular" pump gas (with ethanol), some with different preservative additives. The pictures speak for themselves...gas with ethanol added is BAD for small engines. What really sucks is I have to pay almost a dollar more per gallon for gas that does NOT have the added ethanol.

 

[need-for-speed]

Basically the people run their equipment on a regular basis don't have problems

Does cold weather make it worse (even for E0)? I live in the Houston area and never seem to have issues.

Just to be safe, I do run E0 in all of my 2 cycle stuff.

 

[need-for-speed]

Ethanol has less energy than petrol so if you are running it in an engine that is jetted to lean burn strait fuel then it will be running very lean ( hole in piston type lean ) however that is not a problem for engines designed to burn it
Ethanol burns slower than petrol so the timing needs to be advanced just a smidge on engines not designed to burn it .
Ethanol will adsorb moisture which is good & bad.
The good bit is it will scavenge water that has accumulated in fuel tank & run it through the engine ( where it increases power ) .
The bad bit is when it is water saturated any more water will cause it to drop out ( phase separation )
The water ethanol mix is acidic and will cause galvanic corrosion to zinc plated parts and to a far lesser extent to cast zinc like carbs
The ethanol / water mix will support the growth of bacteria , just the same as the bacteria that can grow in diesel tanks left standing for a long time .

And remember it is only 5% to 15 % so it is not very much ethanol in fuel .
Brazil runs e85 and has been doing so for decades
South Africa ran e95 during the BS embargo in engines designed to run strait petrol without the entire country coming to a grinding hault although they did ban the use of all 2 stroke engines at the time .
While ethanol is touted as a enviromental pollution solution in reality it is a political & financial idea done in order to reduce the amount of imported oil .
Like all of the solutions looking for problem ( seafoam , etc ) weather e?? will cause you grief is very much dependent upon a host of factors that will be unique to your location & engine use .
Naturally the oil industry does everything in its power to accentuate the minor problems that can occur with e?? use and the corn lobby does everything they can to push the benefits of using e??
Some where in the middle is the truth
Bioactive sludge in the bottom of your carb is very much as problematic as varnish from strait fuel and a lot easier to clean out .

I agree with all of that except the reason behind the .gov mandates for ethanol in fuel. It is for the PERCEPTION that we will import less oil, but in reality, it is to buy Midwestern votes.

cheers.

 

[ILENGINE]

Does cold weather make it worse (even for E0)? I live in the Houston area and never seem to have issues.

Just to be safe, I do run E0 in all of my 2 cycle stuff.

Kind of complicated due to fuel being blended differently depending on climate and location. Some area wil have 4 blends depending time of year. More volatile fuel blends in the winter.

 

[bertsmobile1]

I know I'm not the smartest person out there. But I've been listening to these conversations for years now, and it takes me back to the years before leaded gasoline was banned, and all the horror stories that were predicted then. Well I'm still running my 1964 MF35 and I haven't burned up my valves or any part of the engine due to lack of lead lubrication. Yes, I have seen carbs that sat for a year or more with crystals in the float bowl, but any of my engines, small or large have not had those problems. Another thing I have noticed is that here in northwest Pa. where dry gas was a must have on hand product, is very rare if even available any more. Hmm, what were the main ingredients in dry gas? Ethanol and Isopropyl. Just saying. This is my own personal opinion, but ethanol gas has been around for sometime now, isn't it time the manufacturers adapt their products? One of the main complaints I had heard when this all started back a few years ago was the ethanol ruined the gaskets in the carbs. Well make the gaskets of better material, don't just complain as some CEOs have done.

Research is expensive
Bench testing is more expensive
Field testing is more expensive still
BEcause of this the amount of testing done was proportional to the cost or consequences of not doing the testing
Thus the avaition industry did the most extensive testing ( no surprise in that ) .
Then cheaper industries grabbed the coat tails of the avaition testing and extrapolated from that
So yes valve seats do burn, but not many cars, motorcycles or lawnmowers end up at 20,000 feet and running lean burn situation.

But these results were picked up and reported by the media because it was sensational & would cause you to buy the magazine so lots of $$$$$ for the publishers .

The same happened with ethanol in fuels, remember when South Africa was under the BS embargo they could not buy oil directly so it became unbelievably expensive.
The solution was 100% ethanol and caster oil which worked fine but it did highlight all of the problems encountered when burning a fuel in an engine that it was not designed for .
South America has been running e-85 for decades and they have not all blown up all of their engines
Bad practices / laziness will always cause you problems
Leave 100 fuel in your mower all year long & it will evaporate and leave a gum deposit that will not redissolve in the fuel so will require an expensive cleaning or carb replacement
Do the same with ethanol and you MIGHT get some phase separation and the dropped out water will grow bacteria ( similar to the diesel bacteria ) that forms that milky deposits which is many times more corrosive and is what makes the mess & destroys your zinc carbs

And all this is very dependent upon the actual microclimate where the item is stored .
As previously mentioned, sealing the system will drastically reduce the volume of water because it can only come from the air .