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Great ethanol warning
#1
smhardesty
smhardesty
I guess this is the best place for this. If not, feel free to move it where it should be.
I have had a few discussions with people recently about ethanol. A couple of the guys I talked with flat out disputed that ethanol causes any problems in internal combustion engines. It just so happens that both of them are farmers that grow corn. Strange, isn't it? LOL! After what my own automotive mechanic has told me and what I have seen inside carbs on small engines that have sat for extended periods with an ethanol blend in them, I'm pretty sure ethanol isn't really good for ANY internal combustion engine. I'm doubly sure it's not good for small engines that sit in the shed for 6 months at a time. That's especially true for any engine that the owner does nothing to prepare the equipment for winter storage. Anyway, I found the screenshot below while searching for additional info on ethanol blended gas. I think it explains the harm that blended gas can cause in a really simplified, yet informative, manner. I intend to print this on an 8"x11" sheet of card stock, stuff it inside a clear, protective sleeve, and then staple it to one of the walls in my garage. I do have a couple of plastic gas caps with symbols indicating that ONLY 5% or 10% ethanol blend is acceptable and also shows that 15% is NOT acceptable.
I did get some good news regarding gasoline available in my area. I thought there was no place in town to buy straight unleaded. My dentist actually told me about a place that offers pure unleaded. He has refused to put blended gas in any of his vehicles or in any of his OPE. One of the two truck stops we have in town has one, single pump that is for straight unleaded. It costs an extra 10 cents a gallon, give or take, but with gas at $3.25 to $3.50, what difference does a dime a gallon make? LOL! I'll be buying 100% of my gas from there effective immediately. I'm going to be REAL curious to see what happens to my mileage. I keep great records of every fill up in the car, so should be able to detect any change in mileage. We'll see.
Oh, and the second point in the screenshot is exactly why I run a can of Seafoam though my car pretty regularly. I know there are other products that will do the same thing, or even better, but since I use Seafoam for so many other things that's what I stick in the car. I was just told recently that the best thing to use for small amounts of water in a vehicle's gas tank is isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores. I've never tried it, but might get a little to keep on hand. I haven't yet researched it, but I'm wondering what the difference is between the isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores and isopropyl alcohol sold at pharmacies or even Walmart. Is it the same thing?
I have had a few discussions with people recently about ethanol. A couple of the guys I talked with flat out disputed that ethanol causes any problems in internal combustion engines. It just so happens that both of them are farmers that grow corn. Strange, isn't it? LOL! After what my own automotive mechanic has told me and what I have seen inside carbs on small engines that have sat for extended periods with an ethanol blend in them, I'm pretty sure ethanol isn't really good for ANY internal combustion engine. I'm doubly sure it's not good for small engines that sit in the shed for 6 months at a time. That's especially true for any engine that the owner does nothing to prepare the equipment for winter storage. Anyway, I found the screenshot below while searching for additional info on ethanol blended gas. I think it explains the harm that blended gas can cause in a really simplified, yet informative, manner. I intend to print this on an 8"x11" sheet of card stock, stuff it inside a clear, protective sleeve, and then staple it to one of the walls in my garage. I do have a couple of plastic gas caps with symbols indicating that ONLY 5% or 10% ethanol blend is acceptable and also shows that 15% is NOT acceptable.
I did get some good news regarding gasoline available in my area. I thought there was no place in town to buy straight unleaded. My dentist actually told me about a place that offers pure unleaded. He has refused to put blended gas in any of his vehicles or in any of his OPE. One of the two truck stops we have in town has one, single pump that is for straight unleaded. It costs an extra 10 cents a gallon, give or take, but with gas at $3.25 to $3.50, what difference does a dime a gallon make? LOL! I'll be buying 100% of my gas from there effective immediately. I'm going to be REAL curious to see what happens to my mileage. I keep great records of every fill up in the car, so should be able to detect any change in mileage. We'll see.
Oh, and the second point in the screenshot is exactly why I run a can of Seafoam though my car pretty regularly. I know there are other products that will do the same thing, or even better, but since I use Seafoam for so many other things that's what I stick in the car. I was just told recently that the best thing to use for small amounts of water in a vehicle's gas tank is isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores. I've never tried it, but might get a little to keep on hand. I haven't yet researched it, but I'm wondering what the difference is between the isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores and isopropyl alcohol sold at pharmacies or even Walmart. Is it the same thing?
#2
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
Point 1 is true because they are designed to operate on straight gas
Point 2 is true just because it is the same as water in your gas, and water doesn't burn, but ethanol contained a small percent of water as part of production and can be stable at 70 degrees but can phase separate at 0 degrees even in an air tight container.
Point 3 is false by omission. Ethanol is not corrosive by itself. The water and other contaminates combine to form a mild acid which is corrosive. Ethanol has a lower combustion temp than straight gas so actually burns cooler. The issue with ethanol causing overheating and engine damage is caused by the extra oxygen contained in the ethanol combined with having an uncontained burn as compared to gas which causes 2 strokes to run leaner which causes more heat, but the other side of the coin is ethanol doesn't mix well with 2 stroke oil so can potentially cause a straight gas effect. 2 strokes can be designed to operate on E85 or even E100 without ill effects if they are tuned for it. A few years back Makita was testing a system that changed the carb setting and timing to allow their 2 stroke products to operate on E85.
Little over simplified explanation
Point 2 is true just because it is the same as water in your gas, and water doesn't burn, but ethanol contained a small percent of water as part of production and can be stable at 70 degrees but can phase separate at 0 degrees even in an air tight container.
Point 3 is false by omission. Ethanol is not corrosive by itself. The water and other contaminates combine to form a mild acid which is corrosive. Ethanol has a lower combustion temp than straight gas so actually burns cooler. The issue with ethanol causing overheating and engine damage is caused by the extra oxygen contained in the ethanol combined with having an uncontained burn as compared to gas which causes 2 strokes to run leaner which causes more heat, but the other side of the coin is ethanol doesn't mix well with 2 stroke oil so can potentially cause a straight gas effect. 2 strokes can be designed to operate on E85 or even E100 without ill effects if they are tuned for it. A few years back Makita was testing a system that changed the carb setting and timing to allow their 2 stroke products to operate on E85.
Little over simplified explanation
#3
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Ethanol has less energy than petrol so if you are running it in an engine that is jetted to lean burn strait fuel then it will be running very lean ( hole in piston type lean ) however that is not a problem for engines designed to burn it
Ethanol burns slower than petrol so the timing needs to be advanced just a smidge on engines not designed to burn it .
Ethanol will adsorb moisture which is good & bad.
The good bit is it will scavenge water that has accumulated in fuel tank & run it through the engine ( where it increases power ) .
The bad bit is when it is water saturated any more water will cause it to drop out ( phase separation )
The water ethanol mix is acidic and will cause galvanic corrosion to zinc plated parts and to a far lesser extent to cast zinc like carbs
The ethanol / water mix will support the growth of bacteria , just the same as the bacteria that can grow in diesel tanks left standing for a long time .
And remember it is only 5% to 15 % so it is not very much ethanol in fuel .
Brazil runs e85 and has been doing so for decades
South Africa ran e95 during the BS embargo in engines designed to run strait petrol without the entire country coming to a grinding hault although they did ban the use of all 2 stroke engines at the time .
While ethanol is touted as a enviromental pollution solution in reality it is a political & financial idea done in order to reduce the amount of imported oil .
Like all of the solutions looking for problem ( seafoam , etc ) weather e?? will cause you grief is very much dependent upon a host of factors that will be unique to your location & engine use .
Naturally the oil industry does everything in its power to accentuate the minor problems that can occur with e?? use and the corn lobby does everything they can to push the benefits of using e??
Some where in the middle is the truth
Bioactive sludge in the bottom of your carb is very much as problematic as varnish from strait fuel and a lot easier to clean out .
Ethanol burns slower than petrol so the timing needs to be advanced just a smidge on engines not designed to burn it .
Ethanol will adsorb moisture which is good & bad.
The good bit is it will scavenge water that has accumulated in fuel tank & run it through the engine ( where it increases power ) .
The bad bit is when it is water saturated any more water will cause it to drop out ( phase separation )
The water ethanol mix is acidic and will cause galvanic corrosion to zinc plated parts and to a far lesser extent to cast zinc like carbs
The ethanol / water mix will support the growth of bacteria , just the same as the bacteria that can grow in diesel tanks left standing for a long time .
And remember it is only 5% to 15 % so it is not very much ethanol in fuel .
Brazil runs e85 and has been doing so for decades
South Africa ran e95 during the BS embargo in engines designed to run strait petrol without the entire country coming to a grinding hault although they did ban the use of all 2 stroke engines at the time .
While ethanol is touted as a enviromental pollution solution in reality it is a political & financial idea done in order to reduce the amount of imported oil .
Like all of the solutions looking for problem ( seafoam , etc ) weather e?? will cause you grief is very much dependent upon a host of factors that will be unique to your location & engine use .
Naturally the oil industry does everything in its power to accentuate the minor problems that can occur with e?? use and the corn lobby does everything they can to push the benefits of using e??
Some where in the middle is the truth
Bioactive sludge in the bottom of your carb is very much as problematic as varnish from strait fuel and a lot easier to clean out .
#4
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
I run a mower shop. I love ethanol!
#5
7394
7394
I don't, so my stuff runs only on 100% Non-corn gas, even my truck likes the 100% better.run a mower shop. I love ethanol!
#6
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
I have 5 chainsaws, 2 string trimmers, hedge trimmer, pole saw, lawn boy 2 stroke mower, tiller, z turn, lawn tractor, IH LoBoy tractor, 3 generators, chipper shredder, mantis tiller, pressure washer, blower, 36" walk behind that all run on E10 with no issues. The FS80 stihl string trimmer is 24 years old and has had at least a hundred tanks of fuel through it all E10. Still has original fuel lines and never had the carb off yet. All 2 strokes get drained and run completely dry at the end of the season and the 4 strokes get filled up with no stabilizer. Everything runs fine.
Customers leave things too long and not stored properly and that makes me money.
Customers leave things too long and not stored properly and that makes me money.
#7
smhardesty
smhardesty
I think it was over simplified due to the website it was on and that website's viewers. It came from the "Family Handyman" site. I expect point number three was intentionally worded so as to not totally confuse all the site's viewers. At least, that's kind of what I figure, but I could be wrong.Point 1 is true because they are designed to operate on straight gas
Point 2 is true just because it is the same as water in your gas, and water doesn't burn, but ethanol contained a small percent of water as part of production and can be stable at 70 degrees but can phase separate at 0 degrees even in an air tight container.
Point 3 is false by omission. Ethanol is not corrosive by itself. The water and other contaminates combine to form a mild acid which is corrosive. Ethanol has a lower combustion temp than straight gas so actually burns cooler. The issue with ethanol causing overheating and engine damage is caused by the extra oxygen contained in the ethanol combined with having an uncontained burn as compared to gas which causes 2 strokes to run leaner which causes more heat, but the other side of the coin is ethanol doesn't mix well with 2 stroke oil so can potentially cause a straight gas effect. 2 strokes can be designed to operate on E85 or even E100 without ill effects if they are tuned for it. A few years back Makita was testing a system that changed the carb setting and timing to allow their 2 stroke products to operate on E85.
Little over simplified explanation
#8
smhardesty
smhardesty
I'm really looking forward to seeing how much difference running pure unleaded makes in my car. Since I found that we actually have at least one place in town that sells pure unleaded I'm going to run it exclusively for a while.I don't, so my stuff runs only on 100% Non-corn gas, even my truck likes the 100% better.
#9
smhardesty
It was shortly after that I was telling my auto mechanic about it and he told me he regularly gets old farm trucks and other equipment that don't get used regularly that have carbs that look just like it. He said the only thing all the equipment has in common is that they all had ethanol blended fuel in them and they all sat for extended periods of time without being started and run. I'm sure that is probably the biggest factor in ethanol related problems.
smhardesty
That's when I first noticed what an ethanol blend can do to a carb. I ended up with my dad's Troy-Bilt tiller. I got it a couple of years before we bought this place in town 6 years ago. I had already stopped gardening when I got the thing so it sat in the shed until we moved here. Then, I left it in the back corner of my shed until I decided to sell it a little less than a year ago. I pushed it into the garage and decided to check everything out. The first thing I did was try and start it. No go. I pulled the carb and popped it open. I couldn't believe how corroded and rusty the inside was. Everything was crusted including the walls of the carb in places. I tried soaking it and cleaning it, but it was too far gone.Customers leave things too long and not stored properly and that makes me money.
It was shortly after that I was telling my auto mechanic about it and he told me he regularly gets old farm trucks and other equipment that don't get used regularly that have carbs that look just like it. He said the only thing all the equipment has in common is that they all had ethanol blended fuel in them and they all sat for extended periods of time without being started and run. I'm sure that is probably the biggest factor in ethanol related problems.
#10
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
Basically the people run their equipment on a regular basis don't have problemsThat's when I first noticed what an ethanol blend can do to a carb. I ended up with my dad's Troy-Bilt tiller. I got it a couple of years before we bought this place in town 6 years ago. I had already stopped gardening when I got the thing so it sat in the shed until we moved here. Then, I left it in the back corner of my shed until I decided to sell it a little less than a year ago. I pushed it into the garage and decided to check everything out. The first thing I did was try and start it. No go. I pulled the carb and popped it open. I couldn't believe how corroded and rusty the inside was. Everything was crusted including the walls of the carb in places. I tried soaking it and cleaning it, but it was too far gone.
It was shortly after that I was telling my auto mechanic about it and he told me he regularly gets old farm trucks and other equipment that doesn't get used regularly that have carbs that look just like it. He said the only thing all the equipment has in common is that they all had ethanol blended fuel in them and they all sat for extended periods of time without being started and run. I'm sure that is probably the biggest factor in ethanol related problems.
#11
smhardesty
I was guilty of NOT prepping that Troy-Bilt tiller for storage and I ended up having to buy a new carb before I could sell it. Nobody's fault but my own. I'm having some REALLY interesting chats with people selling used equipment online. They pretty much brag that whatever piece of equipment they have was only used for one or two seasons and then has been sitting in storage for two or three years. Their asking prices are WAY out of line and when I try to tell them what it will probably cost to get it ready for use to sell, they get offended and SWEAR it was running perfectly when they put it in storage a few years ago, so there just CAN'T be too much wrong with it.
In fact, I just had a final exchange with a guy. 3 months ago I saw he had a Troy-Bilt mower for sale. In the description it stated that it was NOT running and PROBABLY only needed the carb cleaned. The asking price was $75. When I first contacted him over three months ago, I offered $50. He was offended and told me it cost $300 when new. I explained that if the mower was running and nothing was missing or broken, he might expect to get $75 to $100, but since it didn't even start, it wasn't worth more than $50. He got really nasty with me. I left it alone. Then, a month ago I happened to see he still had it. I again contacted him and offered the same $50. His reply was kind of nasty, but he was still refusing. Yesterday I got a message from him stating he was willing to take $70 for it now. Yeah, $70 instead of $75, like that was a real incentive for me to jump on it. I replied that I had picked up a few mowers and would now only offer him $40. You should have seen THAT reply, LOL! There is no telling what might be wrong with the thing.
Maybe I'm out of line, but a NON-RUNNING mower can't be worth over $30 or $40. So many of the ones advertised online say that the mower is not running, but it was 2 years ago, or three years, or more, when they parked it in the shed. How in the world they expect to get $75, $100, or even more is beyond me. LOL! A non-running, straight push mower that hasn't run in three or more years is a problem waiting to be discovered. OK. call me cynical. LOL!
smhardesty
Yep. That's it in a nutshell. I've never had problems with any of my OPE, but then I always prep them for storage each year. Seafoam might not be the absolute best fuel stabilizer, but it has always worked well for me. I know that STA-BIL works well for a lot of people and there are a few more good winter prep additives. The most important thing is to at least do something instead of just pushing the equipment in a shed and closing the door. I keep a battery tender on my lawn tractor and keep it in the garage where the temp never gets below about 45 degrees. I fire it up and run it at least once a month. It's usually more often that that since I need to move things around every once in a while.Basically the people run their equipment on a regular basis don't have problems
I was guilty of NOT prepping that Troy-Bilt tiller for storage and I ended up having to buy a new carb before I could sell it. Nobody's fault but my own. I'm having some REALLY interesting chats with people selling used equipment online. They pretty much brag that whatever piece of equipment they have was only used for one or two seasons and then has been sitting in storage for two or three years. Their asking prices are WAY out of line and when I try to tell them what it will probably cost to get it ready for use to sell, they get offended and SWEAR it was running perfectly when they put it in storage a few years ago, so there just CAN'T be too much wrong with it.
In fact, I just had a final exchange with a guy. 3 months ago I saw he had a Troy-Bilt mower for sale. In the description it stated that it was NOT running and PROBABLY only needed the carb cleaned. The asking price was $75. When I first contacted him over three months ago, I offered $50. He was offended and told me it cost $300 when new. I explained that if the mower was running and nothing was missing or broken, he might expect to get $75 to $100, but since it didn't even start, it wasn't worth more than $50. He got really nasty with me. I left it alone. Then, a month ago I happened to see he still had it. I again contacted him and offered the same $50. His reply was kind of nasty, but he was still refusing. Yesterday I got a message from him stating he was willing to take $70 for it now. Yeah, $70 instead of $75, like that was a real incentive for me to jump on it. I replied that I had picked up a few mowers and would now only offer him $40. You should have seen THAT reply, LOL! There is no telling what might be wrong with the thing.
Maybe I'm out of line, but a NON-RUNNING mower can't be worth over $30 or $40. So many of the ones advertised online say that the mower is not running, but it was 2 years ago, or three years, or more, when they parked it in the shed. How in the world they expect to get $75, $100, or even more is beyond me. LOL! A non-running, straight push mower that hasn't run in three or more years is a problem waiting to be discovered. OK. call me cynical. LOL!
#12
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
Non running push mowers will go for $5 each at my local community auction in April. People will buy a truck load. Fix what the can to get $25 each at the next auction, and sell the remainder for scrap.Yep. That's it in a nutshell. I've never had problems with any of my OPE, but then I always prep them for storage each year. Seafoam might not be the absolute best fuel stabilizer, but it has always worked well for me. I know that STA-BIL works well for a lot of people and there are a few more good winter prep additives. The most important thing is to at least do something instead of just pushing the equipment in a shed and closing the door. I keep a battery tender on my lawn tractor and keep it in the garage where the temp never gets below about 45 degrees. I fire it up and run it at least once a month. It's usually more often that that since I need to move things around every once in a while.
I was guilty of NOT prepping that Troy-Bilt tiller for storage and I ended up having to buy a new carb before I could sell it. Nobody's fault but my own. I'm having some REALLY interesting chats with people selling used equipment online. They pretty much brag that whatever piece of equipment they have was only used for one or two seasons and then has been sitting in storage for two or three years. Their asking prices are WAY out of line and when I try to tell them what it will probably cost to get it ready for use to sell, they get offended and SWEAR it was running perfectly when they put it in storage a few years ago, so there just CAN'T be too much wrong with it.
In fact, I just had a final exchange with a guy. 3 months ago I saw he had a Troy-Bilt mower for sale. In the description it stated that it was NOT running and PROBABLY only needed the carb cleaned. The asking price was $75. When I first contacted him over three months ago, I offered $50. He was offended and told me it cost $300 when new. I explained that if the mower was running and nothing was missing or broken, he might expect to get $75 to $100, but since it didn't even start, it wasn't worth more than $50. He got really nasty with me. I left it alone. Then, a month ago I happened to see he still had it. I again contacted him and offered the same $50. His reply was kind of nasty, but he was still refusing. Yesterday I got a message from him stating he was willing to take $70 for it now. Yeah, $70 instead of $75, like that was a real incentive for me to jump on it. I replied that I had picked up a few mowers and would now only offer him $40. You should have seen THAT reply, LOL! There is no telling what might be wrong with the thing.
Maybe I'm out of line, but a NON-RUNNING mower can't be worth over $30 or $40. So many of the ones advertised online say that the mower is not running, but it was 2 years ago, or three years, or more, when they parked it in the shed. How in the world they expect to get $75, $100, or even more is beyond me. LOL! A non-running, straight push mower that hasn't run in three or more years is a problem waiting to be discovered. OK. call me cynical. LOL!
#13
smhardesty
I also just bought a Husqvarna self-propelled mower that starts and runs just fine and will drive with the left front wheel, but not both wheels. I'm pretty sure I know what's wrong with it. I ended up giving $30 for it so even if the whole mower is a waste, I have a good, Briggs motor I can set on one of the good decks I have. These little projects are what I was actually shooting for when I got back in the biz. No big money involved and it keeps me occupied. I'm sure younger guys think I'm nuts for wanting to do this just to keep busy, but after 13 years of not working at all, I really needed something to do.
Give me some more info on the auction you are talking about. Where and when is it? I might be one of those guys looking to buy a few of them for projects.
.
smhardesty
I've made a few people mad with the offers I make. I screwed up when I first put the word out that I was looking for mowers to buy. My first ads read, "Paying cash for non-running mowers". I got swamped with people calling me to come look at a pile of rust that hadn't run in 10 or 20 years. I went ahead and paid $5 or $10 for a few of them that had really good decks, handles, or wheels. I had to start telling people I wouldn't take what they had. Made a few mad, but a fella can't drag home every rust pile in the county. LOL! My new ads specify, "Cash paid for certain mowers", or "Cash paid for some mowers". I did have one guy bring me 7 non-running mowers and he just gave them to me. 2 went immediately into the scrap pile. Then I took parts from 4 of them to build one "frankenmower". I sold it for $65. I still have 5 or 6 others that I have never looked at other than when I bought them. I don't have $25 in the whole lot, so I'm sure I can get at least that much out of parts. I really think there are two that I can combine to make a halfway decent mower.Non running push mowers will go for $5 each at my local community auction in April. People will buy a truck load. Fix what the can to get $25 each at the next auction, and sell the remainder for scrap.
I also just bought a Husqvarna self-propelled mower that starts and runs just fine and will drive with the left front wheel, but not both wheels. I'm pretty sure I know what's wrong with it. I ended up giving $30 for it so even if the whole mower is a waste, I have a good, Briggs motor I can set on one of the good decks I have. These little projects are what I was actually shooting for when I got back in the biz. No big money involved and it keeps me occupied. I'm sure younger guys think I'm nuts for wanting to do this just to keep busy, but after 13 years of not working at all, I really needed something to do.
Give me some more info on the auction you are talking about. Where and when is it? I might be one of those guys looking to buy a few of them for projects.
.
#14
smhardesty
I just got home from filling the car up with pure unleaded. I paid 55 cents over the price of 10% ethanol blends. This tankful won't tell me anything since I still had a half tank of ethanol blend in it. I'll not be too concerned with seeing any changes until at least the third tank I get. I don't even know for sure that there will be any noticeable changes. I just decided to do it as an experiment.
I had to laugh at something that happened while filling up. A guy pulled in on the opposite side of the island I was using. I stepped around and asked if he was using pure unleaded. He was and it led to a full blown conversation. We talked about how it can be harmful to small engines if you don't winter prep them or run them regularly during the winter. I mentioned I was doing small engine repair out of my garage and he started telling me that he had a tiller he wanted somebody to look at. I asked what was wrong and he told me he was using it and at the end of one row, the gear oil just blew out of the bottom of the case. When he said that, a light came on. I told him he had messaged me on Facebook about the problem. We talked a few more minutes and he asked if I knew what the problem might be. I asked him if there were any holes or cracks on the bottom of the case. He said no, and at about the same time we both said it was a blown gasket. I said there had to be a reason that the seal blew out like that. He then said it was weird because he had just filled it up with gear oil. I'm now wondering if he filled it ALL the way up. I've seen that before. Someone that doesn't know thinks the gear oil should be right at the bottom of the fill hole. He said he would drop it off sometime for me to look at.
smhardesty
Yep. True enough.Basically the people run their equipment on a regular basis don't have problems
I just got home from filling the car up with pure unleaded. I paid 55 cents over the price of 10% ethanol blends. This tankful won't tell me anything since I still had a half tank of ethanol blend in it. I'll not be too concerned with seeing any changes until at least the third tank I get. I don't even know for sure that there will be any noticeable changes. I just decided to do it as an experiment.
I had to laugh at something that happened while filling up. A guy pulled in on the opposite side of the island I was using. I stepped around and asked if he was using pure unleaded. He was and it led to a full blown conversation. We talked about how it can be harmful to small engines if you don't winter prep them or run them regularly during the winter. I mentioned I was doing small engine repair out of my garage and he started telling me that he had a tiller he wanted somebody to look at. I asked what was wrong and he told me he was using it and at the end of one row, the gear oil just blew out of the bottom of the case. When he said that, a light came on. I told him he had messaged me on Facebook about the problem. We talked a few more minutes and he asked if I knew what the problem might be. I asked him if there were any holes or cracks on the bottom of the case. He said no, and at about the same time we both said it was a blown gasket. I said there had to be a reason that the seal blew out like that. He then said it was weird because he had just filled it up with gear oil. I'm now wondering if he filled it ALL the way up. I've seen that before. Someone that doesn't know thinks the gear oil should be right at the bottom of the fill hole. He said he would drop it off sometime for me to look at.
#15
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
I quit trying to flip equp long ago. If someone gives me something i will see if it is worth trying to fix n flip but usually just goes to the Cohen shredder down the street. Folks sometimes get offended when i tell them i would be happy to fix it for $40/hr plus parts and then they can sell it at a loss.
#16
B
bertsmobile1
Microclimate plays a massive part in how long fuel lasts .
My landlord's house is 450 yards away from my workshop across an open paddock .
I can see his house which is also 20 yards higher up the hill and 100 yards from forest.
My workshop is on the fourth flood bank of the river which is also 450 yards away.
I can leave fuel in my motorcycle for over a year where as the exact same fuel bought at the same time from the same service station in his bike goes off in roughly 2 weeks to the point that his bikes won't start .
I have had customers with a ride on & push mower sitting next to each other in a shed
The ride on fuel goes off in around a month where as the push mower fuel never goes off.
For an experiment he moved them around, left right & the push mower fuel went off .
So now he keeps both of them on the house side of his shed with the push mower behind the ride on and neither fuel goes off.
And before you ask, no goop put in the tanks made any difference .
He had tried seafoam, stabil & startron
Garages that adjoin kitchens stay warmer than those which are detached from the house or near the living room or study.
Some yards will have a very low dew point and the grass gets we the instant the sun goes down where as a near by house may not get any dew at all , so the first yard will always be condensing water in his fuel tanks if they are not kept full and the latter will not condense water regardless of the fuel level.
Ask a keen gardener about the microclimates around their house, not odd to have 5 or 6 on a std 1/4 acre block.
The landlord has around 20 different grasses in the pasture.
It has taken him 20 years to understand that he is better off selectively seeding with the right grass for the exact spot rather than using the general pasture mix for this region .
Look at any ones grass, unless carefully maintained there will be spots that grow 2' a week and others than can barely keep an unbroken cover no matter what the owner does to it .
This is microclimate and it can be changed with really simple things like sunlight reflecting off the window of a vehicle or the house next door.
So all of this "X" magic goop must work because "I" have been using it is meaningless for any one other than you because the actual conditions of your neighbours yard will be different to yours .
B
bertsmobile1
What so many find it hard to get their heads around is fuel degregation is not the same for any 2 people at any two places using any two fuels .Yep. That's it in a nutshell. I've never had problems with any of my OPE, but then I always prep them for storage each year. Seafoam might not be the absolute best fuel stabilizer, but it has always worked well for me. I know that STA-BIL works well for a lot of people and there are a few more good winter prep additives. The most important thing is to at least do something instead of just pushing the equipment in a shed and closing the door. I keep a battery tender on my lawn tractor and keep it in the garage where the temp never gets below about 45 degrees. I fire it up and run it at least once a month. It's usually more often that that since I need to move things around every once in a while.
BIG SNIP
OK. call me cynical. LOL!
Microclimate plays a massive part in how long fuel lasts .
My landlord's house is 450 yards away from my workshop across an open paddock .
I can see his house which is also 20 yards higher up the hill and 100 yards from forest.
My workshop is on the fourth flood bank of the river which is also 450 yards away.
I can leave fuel in my motorcycle for over a year where as the exact same fuel bought at the same time from the same service station in his bike goes off in roughly 2 weeks to the point that his bikes won't start .
I have had customers with a ride on & push mower sitting next to each other in a shed
The ride on fuel goes off in around a month where as the push mower fuel never goes off.
For an experiment he moved them around, left right & the push mower fuel went off .
So now he keeps both of them on the house side of his shed with the push mower behind the ride on and neither fuel goes off.
And before you ask, no goop put in the tanks made any difference .
He had tried seafoam, stabil & startron
Garages that adjoin kitchens stay warmer than those which are detached from the house or near the living room or study.
Some yards will have a very low dew point and the grass gets we the instant the sun goes down where as a near by house may not get any dew at all , so the first yard will always be condensing water in his fuel tanks if they are not kept full and the latter will not condense water regardless of the fuel level.
Ask a keen gardener about the microclimates around their house, not odd to have 5 or 6 on a std 1/4 acre block.
The landlord has around 20 different grasses in the pasture.
It has taken him 20 years to understand that he is better off selectively seeding with the right grass for the exact spot rather than using the general pasture mix for this region .
Look at any ones grass, unless carefully maintained there will be spots that grow 2' a week and others than can barely keep an unbroken cover no matter what the owner does to it .
This is microclimate and it can be changed with really simple things like sunlight reflecting off the window of a vehicle or the house next door.
So all of this "X" magic goop must work because "I" have been using it is meaningless for any one other than you because the actual conditions of your neighbours yard will be different to yours .
#17
7394
Suppose I could run E-10 thru mow season, but end before parking lawn equp with 100%..
7394
My old Panel truck likes it, & it does sit parked a lot.. Lawn equip is for my personal use so same reason I use 100%.I'm really looking forward to seeing how much difference running pure unleaded makes in my car. Since I found that we actually have at least one place in town that sells pure unleaded I'm going to run it exclusively for a while.
Suppose I could run E-10 thru mow season, but end before parking lawn equp with 100%..
#18
smhardesty
If I was trying to support a family I'm sure I'd have to approach these little projects differently. I'd never be able to spend 4 or 5 hours on a project and only realize $30 or $40 profit on it. Since this is really just a way for me to stay busy, as long as there is at least some kind of profit I'm satisfied.
smhardesty
I've gotten a whole lot more selective in buying stuff to flip. When I first got back into the biz I just needed material to start projects with. Now that I have several pieces of OPE that I can spend time working on, I'm being way more picky about what I look at and what I'm willing to pay. I know what I have to work with and what is needed to finish off what I have on hand.I quit trying to flip equp long ago. If someone gives me something i will see if it is worth trying to fix n flip but usually just goes to the Cohen shredder down the street. Folks sometimes get offended when i tell them i would be happy to fix it for $40/hr plus parts and then they can sell it at a loss.
If I was trying to support a family I'm sure I'd have to approach these little projects differently. I'd never be able to spend 4 or 5 hours on a project and only realize $30 or $40 profit on it. Since this is really just a way for me to stay busy, as long as there is at least some kind of profit I'm satisfied.
#19
smhardesty
I'm really surprised at how the mileage on the car has dropped since nearly all our driving is now short trips around town with little to no highway trips. The car has always gotten 28 - 29 mpg combined city/highway. Now we're seeing 22 to 25 mpg. It loves to stretch its legs, getting 31 - 32 mpg on the open road. Different type of driving now.
smhardesty
I'm just experimenting with it right now. The one thing I'm certain I'll use it for is all my small engine equipment, especially the older 2 stroke stuff. Since the wife has finally retired, our car sits for several days at a time. I'm thinking it will probably benefit from using it as well.My old Panel truck likes it, & it does sit parked a lot.. Lawn equip is for my personal use so same reason I use 100%.
Suppose I could run E-10 thru mow season, but end before parking lawn equp with 100%..
I'm really surprised at how the mileage on the car has dropped since nearly all our driving is now short trips around town with little to no highway trips. The car has always gotten 28 - 29 mpg combined city/highway. Now we're seeing 22 to 25 mpg. It loves to stretch its legs, getting 31 - 32 mpg on the open road. Different type of driving now.
#20
7394
7394
Very different type of driving, aka severe duty. Those short runs are harder on the ride than the hi-way..
#21
Tiger Small Engine
I run a small engine repair shop and personally run 10% ethanol with no problems. Keep the fuel moving, keep it fresh. For 2-stroke handheld equipment, especially chainsaws, no older than 30-60 days. It seems most of my customers claim to run no ethanol fuel. I constantly see old fuel (turn yellow, dark yellow, etc.), and water in fuel. Use the fuel shut off valve after running equipment on occasional use basis.
This topic has been beaten to death, and been overblown. I clean lots of carburetors and very few of them are ever to far gone to bring back into service.
Tiger Small Engine
I agree with Hammermechsnic man-I have 5 chainsaws, 2 string trimmers, hedge trimmer, pole saw, lawn boy 2 stroke mower, tiller, z turn, lawn tractor, IH LoBoy tractor, 3 generators, chipper shredder, mantis tiller, pressure washer, blower, 36" walk behind that all run on E10 with no issues. The FS80 stihl string trimmer is 24 years old and has had at least a hundred tanks of fuel through it all E10. Still has original fuel lines and never had the carb off yet. All 2 strokes get drained and run completely dry at the end of the season and the 4 strokes get filled up with no stabilizer. Everything runs fine.
Customers leave things too long and not stored properly and that makes me money.
I run a small engine repair shop and personally run 10% ethanol with no problems. Keep the fuel moving, keep it fresh. For 2-stroke handheld equipment, especially chainsaws, no older than 30-60 days. It seems most of my customers claim to run no ethanol fuel. I constantly see old fuel (turn yellow, dark yellow, etc.), and water in fuel. Use the fuel shut off valve after running equipment on occasional use basis.
This topic has been beaten to death, and been overblown. I clean lots of carburetors and very few of them are ever to far gone to bring back into service.
#22
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Things customers do:
Dump the fuel out if a 2 stroke but not start it and really run the fuel out.
Dump stabilizer in the gas tank and not run engine to get stabilized fuel uo to the carb.
Store equipment half full if gas.
Use premium for off season storage.
Mix motor oil with the fuel to stop rust.
Remove spark plug for safe storage. (Probably some internet BS).
Never ever drain all the fuel from a generator or tiller.
Dump fresh fuel on top of fuel years old fuel and the carb is trashed and tell you it ran last week.
Bring in a piece of equipment saying they think it needs a spark plug and you notice the float bowl is rusted off.
Dump the fuel out if a 2 stroke but not start it and really run the fuel out.
Dump stabilizer in the gas tank and not run engine to get stabilized fuel uo to the carb.
Store equipment half full if gas.
Use premium for off season storage.
Mix motor oil with the fuel to stop rust.
Remove spark plug for safe storage. (Probably some internet BS).
Never ever drain all the fuel from a generator or tiller.
Dump fresh fuel on top of fuel years old fuel and the carb is trashed and tell you it ran last week.
Bring in a piece of equipment saying they think it needs a spark plug and you notice the float bowl is rusted off.
#23
B
bullet bob
B
bullet bob
"Dump fresh fuel on top of fuel years old fuel and the carb is trashed and tell you it ran last week." 
#24
T
Tbone0106
T
Tbone0106
Good stuff here. The word is "hydrophilic." Ethanol is hydrophilic, meaning that it really likes water, even to the point of attracting the moisture out of the air.
In fact, you can actually make your own ethanol-free gas from the E10 stuff by mixing it with regular tap water and letting the mix separate. There are plenty of articles about this online. It is exactly the same process government inspectors use to check the ethanol content of pump gas. That will give you some idea of just how much ethanol and water love one another.
I used to get my corn-free gas at a marina 25 miles or so up the road. I had to pay a premium for it, and I had to lug my fuel can out on the fuel dock to the pump -- and back -- but it was worth it. These days, I run regular pump gas (E10) in my summertime equipment until about the first of September. After that, I fill them with the Super Fuel stuff you can find at Rural King or Lowe's. By the time the snow flies, everything is in good shape. I NEVER use SeaFoam or any other fuel additive. Ethanol is a problem in the first place because it is a gasoline additive. You're not going to counteract the bad effects of one additive by tossing in another one.
Some of the chainsaws I use regularly are 60 years old. (My blue-and-white XL-12, for instance, was made in 1962. No, it is not for sale.) Back then, ethanol was the stuff that came from Pappy's still that you drank on wild weekends. We hadn't yet grown stupid enough to put it in our fuel tanks. No part of the fuel system on that saw was designed to withstand ethanol, and no tuning can make it happy with the stuff.
Trust me, with a belly full of pure gas, Ol' Blue ROCKS.
In fact, you can actually make your own ethanol-free gas from the E10 stuff by mixing it with regular tap water and letting the mix separate. There are plenty of articles about this online. It is exactly the same process government inspectors use to check the ethanol content of pump gas. That will give you some idea of just how much ethanol and water love one another.
I used to get my corn-free gas at a marina 25 miles or so up the road. I had to pay a premium for it, and I had to lug my fuel can out on the fuel dock to the pump -- and back -- but it was worth it. These days, I run regular pump gas (E10) in my summertime equipment until about the first of September. After that, I fill them with the Super Fuel stuff you can find at Rural King or Lowe's. By the time the snow flies, everything is in good shape. I NEVER use SeaFoam or any other fuel additive. Ethanol is a problem in the first place because it is a gasoline additive. You're not going to counteract the bad effects of one additive by tossing in another one.
Some of the chainsaws I use regularly are 60 years old. (My blue-and-white XL-12, for instance, was made in 1962. No, it is not for sale.) Back then, ethanol was the stuff that came from Pappy's still that you drank on wild weekends. We hadn't yet grown stupid enough to put it in our fuel tanks. No part of the fuel system on that saw was designed to withstand ethanol, and no tuning can make it happy with the stuff.
Trust me, with a belly full of pure gas, Ol' Blue ROCKS.
#25
D
Dan Deleon
D
Dan Deleon
I can only say this. The FAA does not allow ethanol in Avgas (airplane fuel) because of the damage it causes wuth water in lines and dependability. It one thing when your 2 stroke acts up, another when your prop stops spinning.
#26
S
smallenginesuppliers
S
smallenginesuppliers
A comprehensive list of gas stations, by state, that sell ethanol free gasoline
www.pure-gas.org
Pure-gas.org - ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada
Pure-gas.org is the definitive web site listing stations that sell pure gasoline in the U.S. and Canada.
#27
Dreaded
Dreaded
I live in Mississippi. I think there is more to this than just ethanol causing the problems. I work on small engines all the time. I have customers that use only nonethanol fuel and if the engine sets up for say 4 or 5 months they have problems with the carburetors so not so sure the problem is just ethanol. I think part of the problem started when they started using oil from crack deposites or from when the wells started getting low. I am not saying ethonal does not cause problems. But when you have nonethanol being used and still have problems then there is something else going on.
I use ethanol gas in my stuff and really have some problems if it sits more that a month without running.
The reason I run ethanol is it costs about 50 cents a gallon less (I would love it to be just 10 cents a gallon more). But I advice my customers to run non ethanol. See I can clean my carbs at very little cost also use additives but I would use additives even using non ethanol. But it cost them for me to clean/replace theirs. I use non ethanol in customers engines when I have to refill their tanks during testing.
I think it depends on where you live as to just how much effect ethanol has. In colder climates it is worse then in hotter climates and in wetter climates it is worse than dryer climates. Missississippi is during the winter cold and wet so we have issues during the winter but in summer not so much.
I hate ethanol and think it is the worst thing the government ever came up with.
I have had to replace several fuel tanks due to rust/other type build up from them using ethanol fuel after they allowed the tank to set low on fuel for 6 months or longer. But I am not sure about this due to this is what a customer tells you about the time it sat. It could have set for several times like this over the years and build up/ rusted because of the many different times it sat.
So to really know you would have to test out this theory and I don't have the money or time to do this.
I use ethanol gas in my stuff and really have some problems if it sits more that a month without running.
The reason I run ethanol is it costs about 50 cents a gallon less (I would love it to be just 10 cents a gallon more). But I advice my customers to run non ethanol. See I can clean my carbs at very little cost also use additives but I would use additives even using non ethanol. But it cost them for me to clean/replace theirs. I use non ethanol in customers engines when I have to refill their tanks during testing.
I think it depends on where you live as to just how much effect ethanol has. In colder climates it is worse then in hotter climates and in wetter climates it is worse than dryer climates. Missississippi is during the winter cold and wet so we have issues during the winter but in summer not so much.
I hate ethanol and think it is the worst thing the government ever came up with.
I have had to replace several fuel tanks due to rust/other type build up from them using ethanol fuel after they allowed the tank to set low on fuel for 6 months or longer. But I am not sure about this due to this is what a customer tells you about the time it sat. It could have set for several times like this over the years and build up/ rusted because of the many different times it sat.
So to really know you would have to test out this theory and I don't have the money or time to do this.
#28
R
Richard Martin
R
Richard Martin
Non-ethanol fuel will leave the same gum behind in the carb that E-10 will. The gum that is left behind is the non-volatile additives that are put into the gas, such as cleaners and antiknock compounds. When you have a lawnmower with a tank full of gas, and no shutoff valve, as the gas evaporates from the carb, it is replenished with more fuel from the tank until all of the gas is gone, and you have a carb full of gum. Old timers, such as myself, have been having this problem forever, long before they put ethanol in gas. If a mower comes into my shop without a fuel shutoff, I install one and then instruct the customer on its use.
#29
T
troverman
T
troverman
I think buying ethanol free gas is a giant waste of money. I've never done it, ever. My equipment sits all winter (nearly 6 months) in an unheated shop. I don't use fuel stabilizer. I don't user battery tenders. I've honestly only cleaned one carb. My oldest piece of equipment is 15 years old, but most of it is around 5 years old. If you buy high-quality, professional grade equipment, you'll find the carburetors are better made. Replacing an OEM, commercial grade carb with an eBay $20 chinese special is a huge downgrade. Just clean and repair the OEM carb. I have a ton of small engine equipment, including some two stroke stuff. In addition, I have a couple of snowmobiles that sit all but about 3 months of the year, a motorcycle that sits probably 7 months, an ATV that sits a lot, etc, etc. Same treatment for those items - they just sit with regular E10 in the tank in cold storage and never have an issue. If you guys want to swear by buying expensive gas or dumping a lot of additives in, feel free, but I don't see the need.
#30
L
loco-diablo
L
loco-diablo
Here in taxachusetts you can't get non ethanol fuel... but it doesn't bother me.. In the decades of using e10, Ive never had an ethanol related problem.. If I'm not going to use a peice of equipment for an extended period, I dump the tank, then run a bit of true fuel through the machine...
#31
R
RevB
Yes, ethanol is hygroscopic. Water vapor will come out of the air and attach to the ethanol molecule. If you have a closed system with (say) 100 gallons of (say) pure ethanol and 100 gallons of moist air. There is not enough water in the air to go into the ethanol and reach the azeotropic ratio -- not by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude. If you know the relative humidity of the air at the time the tote was opened (and the temperature), you can find the absolute humidity (the mass % of water vapor in the air) and so estimate the maximum amount of water that went into the container. Since 100 gallons is about 20 times the volume of a mole of gas, assuming an absolute humidity of 10% (it's very likely way less) the answer is about 2 moles, or about 40 grams. In equilibrium (in the closed system) almost all of the water vapor will very soon go into the ethanol, so you have 100 gallons of ethanol (with a bit of toluene), plus 40 g of water. That's 0.01%. Obviously we're not working with pure ethanol but at a 5 to 15% by volume in gasoline. Very little water will accumulate in a closed system. But ours is open via a vent hole and continuously exposed. At some point the water will drop out of suspension and accumulate but the amount depends on a continuous exposure to water vapor, humidity, and temperature. Cold slows the absorption. What will hurt you is a tank that is less than full condenses the vapor on it's interior surface and that greatly hastens accumulation by those same orders of magnitude. So...a closed system is what you want. A simple piece of Saran wrap over the filler with a screwed on cap will limit the vapor to just what is in the tank in storage. Water issue solved.
Ethanol, pure or otherwise, is a great fuel. Burns cleanly, leaves little residue. It also has a much lower latent heat of evaporation than gasoline which means it cools the intake charge much more effectively and thereby allows the engine to run cooler by removing the heat of combustion by also burning at a lower temperature, a good thing for air cooled engines but does little for water cooled. The primary negative is that it's much better at washing the oil film off cylinder walls at higher concentrations but you'd have to be north of 50% to see that. Autoignition temp of gasoline is 580f, give or take a bit, ethanol is 685f or so. But the BTU content of ethanol is 76,000 BTU/gal as opposed to gasoline's 125,000 BTU/gal the energy input per unit time in the ignition cycle is far less than gasoline thus the heat available for input into the engine is far less...40% less. If you really want to see a cool engine modify it for methanol (nasty stuff, don't recommend it).
Getting your facts from the "home handyman" is at best, suspect.
R
RevB
Here's your bullshit dispeller if the day...based on the actual, scientific principles of ethanol, not some made up crap.I guess this is the best place for this. If not, feel free to move it where it should be.
I have had a few discussions with people recently about ethanol. A couple of the guys I talked with flat out disputed that ethanol causes any problems in internal combustion engines. It just so happens that both of them are farmers that grow corn. Strange, isn't it? LOL! After what my own automotive mechanic has told me and what I have seen inside carbs on small engines that have sat for extended periods with an ethanol blend in them, I'm pretty sure ethanol isn't really good for ANY internal combustion engine. I'm doubly sure it's not good for small engines that sit in the shed for 6 months at a time. That's especially true for any engine that the owner does nothing to prepare the equipment for winter storage. Anyway, I found the screenshot below while searching for additional info on ethanol blended gas. I think it explains the harm that blended gas can cause in a really simplified, yet informative, manner. I intend to print this on an 8"x11" sheet of card stock, stuff it inside a clear, protective sleeve, and then staple it to one of the walls in my garage. I do have a couple of plastic gas caps with symbols indicating that ONLY 5% or 10% ethanol blend is acceptable and also shows that 15% is NOT acceptable.
I did get some good news regarding gasoline available in my area. I thought there was no place in town to buy straight unleaded. My dentist actually told me about a place that offers pure unleaded. He has refused to put blended gas in any of his vehicles or in any of his OPE. One of the two truck stops we have in town has one, single pump that is for straight unleaded. It costs an extra 10 cents a gallon, give or take, but with gas at $3.25 to $3.50, what difference does a dime a gallon make? LOL! I'll be buying 100% of my gas from there effective immediately. I'm going to be REAL curious to see what happens to my mileage. I keep great records of every fill up in the car, so should be able to detect any change in mileage. We'll see.
Oh, and the second point in the screenshot is exactly why I run a can of Seafoam though my car pretty regularly. I know there are other products that will do the same thing, or even better, but since I use Seafoam for so many other things that's what I stick in the car. I was just told recently that the best thing to use for small amounts of water in a vehicle's gas tank is isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores. I've never tried it, but might get a little to keep on hand. I haven't yet researched it, but I'm wondering what the difference is between the isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores and isopropyl alcohol sold at pharmacies or even Walmart. Is it the same thing?
View attachment 63250
Yes, ethanol is hygroscopic. Water vapor will come out of the air and attach to the ethanol molecule. If you have a closed system with (say) 100 gallons of (say) pure ethanol and 100 gallons of moist air. There is not enough water in the air to go into the ethanol and reach the azeotropic ratio -- not by 2 or 3 orders of magnitude. If you know the relative humidity of the air at the time the tote was opened (and the temperature), you can find the absolute humidity (the mass % of water vapor in the air) and so estimate the maximum amount of water that went into the container. Since 100 gallons is about 20 times the volume of a mole of gas, assuming an absolute humidity of 10% (it's very likely way less) the answer is about 2 moles, or about 40 grams. In equilibrium (in the closed system) almost all of the water vapor will very soon go into the ethanol, so you have 100 gallons of ethanol (with a bit of toluene), plus 40 g of water. That's 0.01%. Obviously we're not working with pure ethanol but at a 5 to 15% by volume in gasoline. Very little water will accumulate in a closed system. But ours is open via a vent hole and continuously exposed. At some point the water will drop out of suspension and accumulate but the amount depends on a continuous exposure to water vapor, humidity, and temperature. Cold slows the absorption. What will hurt you is a tank that is less than full condenses the vapor on it's interior surface and that greatly hastens accumulation by those same orders of magnitude. So...a closed system is what you want. A simple piece of Saran wrap over the filler with a screwed on cap will limit the vapor to just what is in the tank in storage. Water issue solved.
Ethanol, pure or otherwise, is a great fuel. Burns cleanly, leaves little residue. It also has a much lower latent heat of evaporation than gasoline which means it cools the intake charge much more effectively and thereby allows the engine to run cooler by removing the heat of combustion by also burning at a lower temperature, a good thing for air cooled engines but does little for water cooled. The primary negative is that it's much better at washing the oil film off cylinder walls at higher concentrations but you'd have to be north of 50% to see that. Autoignition temp of gasoline is 580f, give or take a bit, ethanol is 685f or so. But the BTU content of ethanol is 76,000 BTU/gal as opposed to gasoline's 125,000 BTU/gal the energy input per unit time in the ignition cycle is far less than gasoline thus the heat available for input into the engine is far less...40% less. If you really want to see a cool engine modify it for methanol (nasty stuff, don't recommend it).
Getting your facts from the "home handyman" is at best, suspect.
#32
H
hollydolly
H
hollydolly
Since the day ethanol came out, I have never used it, never will. 100% gas, Nuff said.
#33
T
troverman
Really, what do you pump into your car?
T
troverman
Since the day ethanol came out, I have never used it, never will. 100% gas, Nuff said.
Really, what do you pump into your car?
#34
R
RevB
R
RevB
With the exception of your comment about lean burn and holes in pistons....I fly a Continental IO520 in a Bellanca Viking. In an air cooled engine you can either use fuel to cool it (run rich) or air to cool it (run lean). Air is free, fuel is not. Running at an exhaust gas peak temperature is the worst possible regime for any engine and running slightly rich of peak is way worse as the unburned fuel ends up coking and will make it's way into the oil past the rings. Lean of peak operation is cooler. But all of this assumes constant speed and fuel injection plus mixture control, something most small engines don't have. The holes in carbureted engines pistons come primarily from two strokes whose heat input per unit time is double that of a four stroke. Holes in four strokes come from high CR engines and detonation or pre-ignition.Ethanol has less energy than petrol so if you are running it in an engine that is jetted to lean burn strait fuel then it will be running very lean ( hole in piston type lean ) however that is not a problem for engines designed to burn it
Ethanol burns slower than petrol so the timing needs to be advanced just a smidge on engines not designed to burn it .
Ethanol will adsorb moisture which is good & bad.
The good bit is it will scavenge water that has accumulated in fuel tank & run it through the engine ( where it increases power ) .
The bad bit is when it is water saturated any more water will cause it to drop out ( phase separation )
The water ethanol mix is acidic and will cause galvanic corrosion to zinc plated parts and to a far lesser extent to cast zinc like carbs
The ethanol / water mix will support the growth of bacteria , just the same as the bacteria that can grow in diesel tanks left standing for a long time .
And remember it is only 5% to 15 % so it is not very much ethanol in fuel .
Brazil runs e85 and has been doing so for decades
South Africa ran e95 during the BS embargo in engines designed to run strait petrol without the entire country coming to a grinding hault although they did ban the use of all 2 stroke engines at the time .
While ethanol is touted as a enviromental pollution solution in reality it is a political & financial idea done in order to reduce the amount of imported oil .
Like all of the solutions looking for problem ( seafoam , etc ) weather e?? will cause you grief is very much dependent upon a host of factors that will be unique to your location & engine use .
Naturally the oil industry does everything in its power to accentuate the minor problems that can occur with e?? use and the corn lobby does everything they can to push the benefits of using e??
Some where in the middle is the truth
Bioactive sludge in the bottom of your carb is very much as problematic as varnish from strait fuel and a lot easier to clean out .
#35
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Woo Hoo! Another ethanol gas thread. 
Where's Scrub?
My gas is better than your gas.
Where's Scrub?
My gas is better than your gas.
#36
T
TobyU
T
TobyU
I'm not even going to bother to read through all of these comments, opinions, conjecture etc on ethanol because it's really a moot point at this time in history.
Making it your mission or goal to only buy pure fuel now is awfully late in the game. It makes me wonder where a person lives or what rock they've been under for 25 years because this was an issue back then and maybe worth making it a hill to have battle on but for most of the country gas containing up to 10% ethanol which basically means everything has a good strong 10% of ethanol in it took over by about 1995.
If you're just now having problems, again my question is where have you been??
I run a shop and do this professionally and have seen thousands of small engines and no firsthand what happens in them and I can guarantee you that ethanol isn't the best thing but it's also not the only problem.
This is why many people are having problems more recently when they weren't 20 plus years ago even though the gas still had 10% ethanol in it back then.
It's just not the fact that there's ethanol in the fuel now. The gas is junk overall!
It doesn't really matter what brand you buy or whether you buy premium or 87 octane versus the highest one you can get.
Wow some fuels are better than others and some fuels are good at certain things, they are not refining fuel to sit exposed to the air to not congeal and mess up nor are they refining it to evaporate cleanly when it does. A lot of these advertisements you hear about being cleaner and removing valve deposits and stuff is true but that's only when they're running in frequent use. None of that matters for the short amount of hours Small engines get.
So instead of going Head over heels trying to and only buying ethanol free fuel which I have seen cost a dollar more per gallon.. it's far simpler do not obsess on staying away from ethanol but focus on fixing the problem and the most convenient, most efficient and cheapest way.
That way is to use fuel stabilizer and not to keep old stale gas around simply due to oversight, laziness or complacency.
Also, don't fall for this one out streets up to two and a half gallon stuff because that's what it says now. It used to say for long-term storage up to 2 years using a ratio of 1 oz for every gallon of fuel but they simply don't do that because they know there's no real guarantee and they don't want the complaints and they don't want to look bad.
But simply adding one good Strong full ounce of stabilizer, I still use Sta-Bil because in the quart bottles is still a good deal despite it having gone up some and if you watch where you purchase it you can get an even better deal.
You put a good strong ounce of this into your empty gas can before you get your fuel and keep your equipment topped off with full wet tanks and I've had many items sit for over 3 years and start right up in just a few pulls and run just fine.
The old school method of running them dry is also outdated and not the best currently as storing everything with a fresh wet tank of stabilized fuel is the best.
A lot of people mistakenly tout running them dry as being the best because they've done it and it's worked well for them but that doesn't mean it's the best.
It is better than doing nothing and by doing nothing I mean having non-stabilized fuel in there to begin with of whatever age just happened to be and your gas can when you put it in there leaving the tank at whatever level it happens to be in which is typically half full or less and then walking away for five or six months. Sure, running it drives better than doing that but it's not as good as storing with a fresh wet tank of stabilized fuel because if you drain your tank and run it to what people call dry it's still only about half to three quarter drive because the bottom of the carb in the float bowl still has some fuel in there which will quickly evaporate and leave some residue and even if you're lucky enough for the fresh gas you pour in next time you use it to dissolve that enough for everything to run properly the problem is the top part of the carburetor which is the needle and seat and the fuel line is dry!
Gas is very caustic and rougher on plastic and rubber Parts than it used to be and it's not just because the ethanol but the fact remains it's rougher than it used to be.
If you stick these rubber Parts in the nasty fuel and then let them air dry repeatedly like people will do from running them dry you will end up with needles and seats that don't seal off and leaky carburetors and leaky cracked fuel lines faster than if you would have stored the machine with fresh wet stabilized fuel.
All opinions and hatred of ethanol aside these are simply the facts.
Now we must also note that different parts of the country are going to have different results from doing the same thing.
There are people in states that cut all your lawn I don't see any problem with fuels etc because their stuff doesn't sit so it doesn't come up. I'm sure there are other variables too due to climate but for a large part of the country what I have stated is how everything pans out and the quickest easiest way to solve it is 1 oz of stabilizer into an empty gas can for every gallon of fuel you're going to add to the gas can.
NEVER cheat and try to pour a half ounce or ounce or whatever into your equipment's gas tank. That's not where it goes. Also, never take your 5 gallon gas can of gas you bought yesterday, last week, or at the beginning of the season and use that to fill up a smaller can after you've added the one ounce of stabilizer to that can because you now are not starting to clock from the day you start because you do not have fresh fuel.
So the one little simple additional item of 1 oz of stabilizer per gallon of fuel and the act of using it using it properly and not leaving gas to get old will solve all of these problems and put you back to a higher success rate than you had back before gas had ethanol in it.
It's also worth noting along with doing things properly or the best way that you can't just take gas that you just purchased and stabilize properly and use it that day and then let it sit for 6 months or whatever and think it's going to last forever.
Here's the two things that happen. One people will mix up fresh fuel at the end of the season or the last mow which is a great idea and fill up their machine and use it and then top it off with a full tank to store it for the off season. All good so far.
But instead of getting rid of that fuel in their car they may let it sit all off season you know what's left in the gas can which is probably a lot which is fine as long as the next season they use all that fuel. If you have a ride or this isn't a problem. But IF someone uses a two and a half or 5 gallon container and they don't go through much fuel in a season and at the end of the following cutting season they're still using that fuel and they haven't bought fresh again then after that next layup for the next cutting season they could be in trouble.
The second big problem is when someone has a piece of equipment that's working properly or has just had it fixed or they buy a new piece of equipment.
If you buy a new snowblower in December and you take it home and pour gas in it and start it and it runs perfectly and then a week later you use it and it works perfectly you think things are fine but you come back next December and it does not start. Why??
Well, for most people when they grab that 5 gallon container that had about a gallon and a half of fuel in it and poured their gas tank full of fuel in that new snowblower or whatever equipment it was, the question is when do they buy that fuel?
They could have bought that gas in May and just now be down to the last 3/4 of a gallon. They're taking old gas and pouring it into a brand new machine and while it works fine that day, it won't be fine after 6 months or a year of storage.
Stabilizer and storage habits.... That's all we have to do properly and all of these problems go away without the need to worry about ethanol.
It's a shame we have to worry about it but it's far simpler than trying to avoid ethanol at all costs. It's also typically much cheaper for your total cost of any stabilizer you use versus what you will pay extra per gallon to buy ethanol-free fuel.
So in my theory it's easier not to go all out on demonizing and eliminating the bad ethanol, but far easier just to do the simplest solution to the problem.
Making it your mission or goal to only buy pure fuel now is awfully late in the game. It makes me wonder where a person lives or what rock they've been under for 25 years because this was an issue back then and maybe worth making it a hill to have battle on but for most of the country gas containing up to 10% ethanol which basically means everything has a good strong 10% of ethanol in it took over by about 1995.
If you're just now having problems, again my question is where have you been??
I run a shop and do this professionally and have seen thousands of small engines and no firsthand what happens in them and I can guarantee you that ethanol isn't the best thing but it's also not the only problem.
This is why many people are having problems more recently when they weren't 20 plus years ago even though the gas still had 10% ethanol in it back then.
It's just not the fact that there's ethanol in the fuel now. The gas is junk overall!
It doesn't really matter what brand you buy or whether you buy premium or 87 octane versus the highest one you can get.
Wow some fuels are better than others and some fuels are good at certain things, they are not refining fuel to sit exposed to the air to not congeal and mess up nor are they refining it to evaporate cleanly when it does. A lot of these advertisements you hear about being cleaner and removing valve deposits and stuff is true but that's only when they're running in frequent use. None of that matters for the short amount of hours Small engines get.
So instead of going Head over heels trying to and only buying ethanol free fuel which I have seen cost a dollar more per gallon.. it's far simpler do not obsess on staying away from ethanol but focus on fixing the problem and the most convenient, most efficient and cheapest way.
That way is to use fuel stabilizer and not to keep old stale gas around simply due to oversight, laziness or complacency.
Also, don't fall for this one out streets up to two and a half gallon stuff because that's what it says now. It used to say for long-term storage up to 2 years using a ratio of 1 oz for every gallon of fuel but they simply don't do that because they know there's no real guarantee and they don't want the complaints and they don't want to look bad.
But simply adding one good Strong full ounce of stabilizer, I still use Sta-Bil because in the quart bottles is still a good deal despite it having gone up some and if you watch where you purchase it you can get an even better deal.
You put a good strong ounce of this into your empty gas can before you get your fuel and keep your equipment topped off with full wet tanks and I've had many items sit for over 3 years and start right up in just a few pulls and run just fine.
The old school method of running them dry is also outdated and not the best currently as storing everything with a fresh wet tank of stabilized fuel is the best.
A lot of people mistakenly tout running them dry as being the best because they've done it and it's worked well for them but that doesn't mean it's the best.
It is better than doing nothing and by doing nothing I mean having non-stabilized fuel in there to begin with of whatever age just happened to be and your gas can when you put it in there leaving the tank at whatever level it happens to be in which is typically half full or less and then walking away for five or six months. Sure, running it drives better than doing that but it's not as good as storing with a fresh wet tank of stabilized fuel because if you drain your tank and run it to what people call dry it's still only about half to three quarter drive because the bottom of the carb in the float bowl still has some fuel in there which will quickly evaporate and leave some residue and even if you're lucky enough for the fresh gas you pour in next time you use it to dissolve that enough for everything to run properly the problem is the top part of the carburetor which is the needle and seat and the fuel line is dry!
Gas is very caustic and rougher on plastic and rubber Parts than it used to be and it's not just because the ethanol but the fact remains it's rougher than it used to be.
If you stick these rubber Parts in the nasty fuel and then let them air dry repeatedly like people will do from running them dry you will end up with needles and seats that don't seal off and leaky carburetors and leaky cracked fuel lines faster than if you would have stored the machine with fresh wet stabilized fuel.
All opinions and hatred of ethanol aside these are simply the facts.
Now we must also note that different parts of the country are going to have different results from doing the same thing.
There are people in states that cut all your lawn I don't see any problem with fuels etc because their stuff doesn't sit so it doesn't come up. I'm sure there are other variables too due to climate but for a large part of the country what I have stated is how everything pans out and the quickest easiest way to solve it is 1 oz of stabilizer into an empty gas can for every gallon of fuel you're going to add to the gas can.
NEVER cheat and try to pour a half ounce or ounce or whatever into your equipment's gas tank. That's not where it goes. Also, never take your 5 gallon gas can of gas you bought yesterday, last week, or at the beginning of the season and use that to fill up a smaller can after you've added the one ounce of stabilizer to that can because you now are not starting to clock from the day you start because you do not have fresh fuel.
So the one little simple additional item of 1 oz of stabilizer per gallon of fuel and the act of using it using it properly and not leaving gas to get old will solve all of these problems and put you back to a higher success rate than you had back before gas had ethanol in it.
It's also worth noting along with doing things properly or the best way that you can't just take gas that you just purchased and stabilize properly and use it that day and then let it sit for 6 months or whatever and think it's going to last forever.
Here's the two things that happen. One people will mix up fresh fuel at the end of the season or the last mow which is a great idea and fill up their machine and use it and then top it off with a full tank to store it for the off season. All good so far.
But instead of getting rid of that fuel in their car they may let it sit all off season you know what's left in the gas can which is probably a lot which is fine as long as the next season they use all that fuel. If you have a ride or this isn't a problem. But IF someone uses a two and a half or 5 gallon container and they don't go through much fuel in a season and at the end of the following cutting season they're still using that fuel and they haven't bought fresh again then after that next layup for the next cutting season they could be in trouble.
The second big problem is when someone has a piece of equipment that's working properly or has just had it fixed or they buy a new piece of equipment.
If you buy a new snowblower in December and you take it home and pour gas in it and start it and it runs perfectly and then a week later you use it and it works perfectly you think things are fine but you come back next December and it does not start. Why??
Well, for most people when they grab that 5 gallon container that had about a gallon and a half of fuel in it and poured their gas tank full of fuel in that new snowblower or whatever equipment it was, the question is when do they buy that fuel?
They could have bought that gas in May and just now be down to the last 3/4 of a gallon. They're taking old gas and pouring it into a brand new machine and while it works fine that day, it won't be fine after 6 months or a year of storage.
Stabilizer and storage habits.... That's all we have to do properly and all of these problems go away without the need to worry about ethanol.
It's a shame we have to worry about it but it's far simpler than trying to avoid ethanol at all costs. It's also typically much cheaper for your total cost of any stabilizer you use versus what you will pay extra per gallon to buy ethanol-free fuel.
So in my theory it's easier not to go all out on demonizing and eliminating the bad ethanol, but far easier just to do the simplest solution to the problem.
#37
grassmann
grassmann
where to buy 100% gas in your area.
www.pure-gas.org
Pure-gas.org - ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada
Pure-gas.org is the definitive web site listing stations that sell pure gasoline in the U.S. and Canada.
#38
ChiefH
ChiefH
I have heard all of what you said above, and I believe it is all true. Especially from a chemical point of view. Since Ethanol is hydrophilic it will combine with the di-hydrogen oxide (water) and that forms an acid that does cause corrosion in the engine. That being said I have been using ethanol-free gasoline in my small engines for 10-13 years now. I put Stabil in my straight gas and it will keep from season to season and I have no starting problems. My mix oil I use the silver Sthil 2-cycle oil 50:1. Sthil concurs with your statement to use 100% gas (NO ethanol)Point 1 is true because they are designed to operate on straight gas
Point 2 is true just because it is the same as water in your gas, and water doesn't burn, but ethanol contained a small percent of water as part of production and can be stable at 70 degrees but can phase separate at 0 degrees even in an air tight container.
Point 3 is false by omission. Ethanol is not corrosive by itself. The water and other contaminates combine to form a mild acid which is corrosive. Ethanol has a lower combustion temp than straight gas so actually burns cooler. The issue with ethanol causing overheating and engine damage is caused by the extra oxygen contained in the ethanol combined with having an uncontained burn as compared to gas which causes 2 strokes to run leaner which causes more heat, but the other side of the coin is ethanol doesn't mix well with 2 stroke oil so can potentially cause a straight gas effect. 2 strokes can be designed to operate on E85 or even E100 without ill effects if they are tuned for it. A few years back Makita was testing a system that changed the carb setting and timing to allow their 2 stroke products to operate on E85.
Little over simplified explanation
#39
P
perzaklie
P
perzaklie
Carb removed from a 5hp Briggs on a generator on a camper trailer. Generator was rarely used. This is what ethanol will do.
Attachments
#40
G
Gord Baker
G
Gord Baker
Be very careful using Methanol in modern engines. It attacks certain types of Plastics and seized a fuel shut off valve on my Yamaha 80. Fortunately I can buy Ethanol free Premium Shell locally for my XLR. I simply drain and run dry seasonal equipment. Done.I guess this is the best place for this. If not, feel free to move it where it should be.
I have had a few discussions with people recently about ethanol. A couple of the guys I talked with flat out disputed that ethanol causes any problems in internal combustion engines. It just so happens that both of them are farmers that grow corn. Strange, isn't it? LOL! After what my own automotive mechanic has told me and what I have seen inside carbs on small engines that have sat for extended periods with an ethanol blend in them, I'm pretty sure ethanol isn't really good for ANY internal combustion engine. I'm doubly sure it's not good for small engines that sit in the shed for 6 months at a time. That's especially true for any engine that the owner does nothing to prepare the equipment for winter storage. Anyway, I found the screenshot below while searching for additional info on ethanol blended gas. I think it explains the harm that blended gas can cause in a really simplified, yet informative, manner. I intend to print this on an 8"x11" sheet of card stock, stuff it inside a clear, protective sleeve, and then staple it to one of the walls in my garage. I do have a couple of plastic gas caps with symbols indicating that ONLY 5% or 10% ethanol blend is acceptable and also shows that 15% is NOT acceptable.
I did get some good news regarding gasoline available in my area. I thought there was no place in town to buy straight unleaded. My dentist actually told me about a place that offers pure unleaded. He has refused to put blended gas in any of his vehicles or in any of his OPE. One of the two truck stops we have in town has one, single pump that is for straight unleaded. It costs an extra 10 cents a gallon, give or take, but with gas at $3.25 to $3.50, what difference does a dime a gallon make? LOL! I'll be buying 100% of my gas from there effective immediately. I'm going to be REAL curious to see what happens to my mileage. I keep great records of every fill up in the car, so should be able to detect any change in mileage. We'll see.
Oh, and the second point in the screenshot is exactly why I run a can of Seafoam though my car pretty regularly. I know there are other products that will do the same thing, or even better, but since I use Seafoam for so many other things that's what I stick in the car. I was just told recently that the best thing to use for small amounts of water in a vehicle's gas tank is isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores. I've never tried it, but might get a little to keep on hand. I haven't yet researched it, but I'm wondering what the difference is between the isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores and isopropyl alcohol sold at pharmacies or even Walmart. Is it the same thing?
View attachment 63250
#41
C
cfauvel
C
cfauvel
Ethanol has about 10% less energy, so theoretically you'd get about 10% more in MPG if running pure gas...but if you get 15mpg...would you really notice if you got 16mpg? you'd have to be very specific in your testing to be sure that you are actually getting 10% better mpgI'm really looking forward to seeing how much difference running pure unleaded makes in my car. Since I found that we actually have at least one place in town that sells pure unleaded I'm going to run it exclusively for a while.
#42
C
cfauvel
The researcher found that for lowest octane rating E10 the mfg added different additives (solvents and stuff) than from Premium E10....E10 Premium behaved better and had less corrosive additives
I'm confused as to why THEY didn't go with Butanol which has more power and none of the problems of Ethanol. Butanol can be made from grasses which grows MUCH faster than corn, can be made from grass clippings (think golf courses, or residential lawn clippings).
Maddening
C
cfauvel
I read somewhere that there are MANY added things to the various blends of mixed gas...Point 3 is false by omission. Ethanol is not corrosive by itself. The water and other contaminates combine to form a mild acid which is corrosive. Ethanol has a lower combustion temp than straight gas so actually burns cooler. The issue with ethanol causing overheating and engine damage is caused by the extra oxygen contained in the ethanol combined with having an uncontained burn as compared to gas which causes 2 strokes to run leaner which causes more heat, but the other side of the coin is ethanol doesn't mix well with 2 stroke oil so can potentially cause a straight gas effect. 2 strokes can be designed to operate on E85 or even E100 without ill effects if they are tuned for it. A few years back Makita was testing a system that changed the carb setting and timing to allow their 2 stroke products to operate on E85.
The researcher found that for lowest octane rating E10 the mfg added different additives (solvents and stuff) than from Premium E10....E10 Premium behaved better and had less corrosive additives
I'm confused as to why THEY didn't go with Butanol which has more power and none of the problems of Ethanol. Butanol can be made from grasses which grows MUCH faster than corn, can be made from grass clippings (think golf courses, or residential lawn clippings).
Maddening
#43
C
cfauvel
C
cfauvel
I've seen exactly this in every IC engine I had before we were able to get e0 in my area....none of my lawn equipment, generator, boat will have e10....my cars run e10 as they get used a lot.Carb removed from a 5hp Briggs on a generator on a camper trailer. Generator was rarely used. This is what ethanol will do.
#44
B
Beesnweeds
B
Beesnweeds
I LOVE ethanol !!! A guy down the road was rolling his quad to the end of the driveway with a for sale sign on it. I immediately pulled over and asked him what was wrong. He said it needed a new carb and probably engine work because it will not start. I opened the gas cap and instantly knew the problem. He had $900 on it and I offered $500 because the engine was bad 
. He took it. A $50 Shindy carb rebuild kit and a couple gallons of non ethanol and the thing is a beast!! I run non ethanol in everything.
. He took it. A $50 Shindy carb rebuild kit and a couple gallons of non ethanol and the thing is a beast!! I run non ethanol in everything.
#45
D
dad7432
D
dad7432
These are the mowers one finds left at the end of the driveway every monday morning. Or left at the shop after their owner gets their (pre-paid) estimate for repairs. If getting a cheap walk behind costs $300.00+ at the Big Box, who's paying for a big repair on a old mower?Yep. That's it in a nutshell. I've never had problems with any of my OPE, but then I always prep them for storage each year. Seafoam might not be the absolute best fuel stabilizer, but it has always worked well for me. I know that STA-BIL works well for a lot of people and there are a few more good winter prep additives. The most important thing is to at least do something instead of just pushing the equipment in a shed and closing the door. I keep a battery tender on my lawn tractor and keep it in the garage where the temp never gets below about 45 degrees. I fire it up and run it at least once a month. It's usually more often that that since I need to move things around every once in a while.
I was guilty of NOT prepping that Troy-Bilt tiller for storage and I ended up having to buy a new carb before I could sell it. Nobody's fault but my own. I'm having some REALLY interesting chats with people selling used equipment online. They pretty much brag that whatever piece of equipment they have was only used for one or two seasons and then has been sitting in storage for two or three years. Their asking prices are WAY out of line and when I try to tell them what it will probably cost to get it ready for use to sell, they get offended and SWEAR it was running perfectly when they put it in storage a few years ago, so there just CAN'T be too much wrong with it.
In fact, I just had a final exchange with a guy. 3 months ago I saw he had a Troy-Bilt mower for sale. In the description it stated that it was NOT running and PROBABLY only needed the carb cleaned. The asking price was $75. When I first contacted him over three months ago, I offered $50. He was offended and told me it cost $300 when new. I explained that if the mower was running and nothing was missing or broken, he might expect to get $75 to $100, but since it didn't even start, it wasn't worth more than $50. He got really nasty with me. I left it alone. Then, a month ago I happened to see he still had it. I again contacted him and offered the same $50. His reply was kind of nasty, but he was still refusing. Yesterday I got a message from him stating he was willing to take $70 for it now. Yeah, $70 instead of $75, like that was a real incentive for me to jump on it. I replied that I had picked up a few mowers and would now only offer him $40. You should have seen THAT reply, LOL! There is no telling what might be wrong with the thing.
Maybe I'm out of line, but a NON-RUNNING mower can't be worth over $30 or $40. So many of the ones advertised online say that the mower is not running, but it was 2 years ago, or three years, or more, when they parked it in the shed. How in the world they expect to get $75, $100, or even more is beyond me. LOL! A non-running, straight push mower that hasn't run in three or more years is a problem waiting to be discovered. OK. call me cynical. LOL!
#46
B
biggertv
B
biggertv
Ethanol causes problems in Carburetor Engines. In Fuel Injection Engines there is no place for gas to pool and cause problems. Otherwise we'd have stalled cars all over the roads.
#47
T
toolboxhero
T
toolboxhero
All small engines built after 2009 are designed to run on E10 (10% or less) ethanol fuel. Use a fuel stabilizer when storing the engine for more than a few months. The best way is to use the fuel stabilizer in the tank and then run the engine completely out of fuel. (The fuel stabilizer will coat the internal parts and keep the aluminum from oxidizing)
If your engine is 2007 or older you should run non-ethanol fuel. (E10 can burn the valves)
If your engine is a 1978 or older you should run non-ethanol fuel and add a lead additive (unless the valves have been replaced with hardened valves)
Small engines with EFI use a sealed fuel system so a fuel stabilizer is not needed but I still recommend using it for long-term storage.
If your car is 2001 or newer it is designed to run on E15 fuel. Running straight gas may increase the fuel mileage a small amount. The EFI automatically adjusts the fuel mixture. If your car has a yellow gas cap or a flex-fuel badge on the rear it's also designed to run on E85.
Ethanol absorbs moisture so if you store your equipment in a controlled humidity environment you won't have any issues. If you store your fuel in an approved, sealed container you won't have any issues (though I still add Seafoam in the winter)
If you have old fuel just put it in your vehicle - it doesn't care and the EFI will automatically adjust.
If your engine is 2007 or older you should run non-ethanol fuel. (E10 can burn the valves)
If your engine is a 1978 or older you should run non-ethanol fuel and add a lead additive (unless the valves have been replaced with hardened valves)
Small engines with EFI use a sealed fuel system so a fuel stabilizer is not needed but I still recommend using it for long-term storage.
If your car is 2001 or newer it is designed to run on E15 fuel. Running straight gas may increase the fuel mileage a small amount. The EFI automatically adjusts the fuel mixture. If your car has a yellow gas cap or a flex-fuel badge on the rear it's also designed to run on E85.
Ethanol absorbs moisture so if you store your equipment in a controlled humidity environment you won't have any issues. If you store your fuel in an approved, sealed container you won't have any issues (though I still add Seafoam in the winter)
If you have old fuel just put it in your vehicle - it doesn't care and the EFI will automatically adjust.
#48
L
ljms
L
ljms
I know I'm not the smartest person out there. But I've been listening to these conversations for years now, and it takes me back to the years before leaded gasoline was banned, and all the horror stories that were predicted then. Well I'm still running my 1964 MF35 and I haven't burned up my valves or any part of the engine due to lack of lead lubrication. Yes, I have seen carbs that sat for a year or more with crystals in the float bowl, but any of my engines, small or large have not had those problems. Another thing I have noticed is that here in northwest Pa. where dry gas was a must have on hand product, is very rare if even available any more. Hmm, what were the main ingredients in dry gas? Ethanol and Isopropyl. Just saying. This is my own personal opinion, but ethanol gas has been around for sometime now, isn't it time the manufacturers adapt their products? One of the main complaints I had heard when this all started back a few years ago was the ethanol ruined the gaskets in the carbs. Well make the gaskets of better material, don't just complain as some CEOs have done.
#49
D
dad7432
D
dad7432
My marina's mechanic would disagree. Strongly. He's repaired plenty of fuel injected inboard and outboard engines and drained plenty of trailer boat fuel tanks that were filled with phase separated E-10 gas. He does this even on boats with fuel/water separators where the separator has failed. All because of water saturated gas and phase separation. Because the water sits at the bottom of the tank with the fuel inlet, water gets sucked up the engine's fuel system first, which gets trashed.Ethanol causes problems in Carburetor Engines. In Fuel Injection Engines there is no place for gas to pool and cause problems. Otherwise we'd have stalled cars all over the roads.
#50
Racer X
Racer X
My mower runs on diesel.
No ethanol problems for me.
No ethanol problems for me.
#51
S
Skyharbor106
S
Skyharbor106
When I was a kid in New Jersey my supermarket sold cans of Dry Gas that we put in our gas tanks in winter. I don't see this anymore. Didn't it absorb water in gas tanks?I guess this is the best place for this. If not, feel free to move it where it should be.
I have had a few discussions with people recently about ethanol. A couple of the guys I talked with flat out disputed that ethanol causes any problems in internal combustion engines. It just so happens that both of them are farmers that grow corn. Strange, isn't it? LOL! After what my own automotive mechanic has told me and what I have seen inside carbs on small engines that have sat for extended periods with an ethanol blend in them, I'm pretty sure ethanol isn't really good for ANY internal combustion engine. I'm doubly sure it's not good for small engines that sit in the shed for 6 months at a time. That's especially true for any engine that the owner does nothing to prepare the equipment for winter storage. Anyway, I found the screenshot below while searching for additional info on ethanol blended gas. I think it explains the harm that blended gas can cause in a really simplified, yet informative, manner. I intend to print this on an 8"x11" sheet of card stock, stuff it inside a clear, protective sleeve, and then staple it to one of the walls in my garage. I do have a couple of plastic gas caps with symbols indicating that ONLY 5% or 10% ethanol blend is acceptable and also shows that 15% is NOT acceptable.
I did get some good news regarding gasoline available in my area. I thought there was no place in town to buy straight unleaded. My dentist actually told me about a place that offers pure unleaded. He has refused to put blended gas in any of his vehicles or in any of his OPE. One of the two truck stops we have in town has one, single pump that is for straight unleaded. It costs an extra 10 cents a gallon, give or take, but with gas at $3.25 to $3.50, what difference does a dime a gallon make? LOL! I'll be buying 100% of my gas from there effective immediately. I'm going to be REAL curious to see what happens to my mileage. I keep great records of every fill up in the car, so should be able to detect any change in mileage. We'll see.
Oh, and the second point in the screenshot is exactly why I run a can of Seafoam though my car pretty regularly. I know there are other products that will do the same thing, or even better, but since I use Seafoam for so many other things that's what I stick in the car. I was just told recently that the best thing to use for small amounts of water in a vehicle's gas tank is isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores. I've never tried it, but might get a little to keep on hand. I haven't yet researched it, but I'm wondering what the difference is between the isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores and isopropyl alcohol sold at pharmacies or even Walmart. Is it the same thing?
View attachment 63250
#52
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
I used to use Christy Drygas for passing emissions in my '85 Monte Carlo. Worked like a charm every time! Putting that in today's fuel is asking for trouble - probably why you don't see it anymore. Fuel already has enough alcohol in it as it is. Drygas was isopropyl alcohol, mainly, and alcohol loves water - that's how it removed it.
I made a PILE of money over the years thanks to ethanol. When I was doing mainly small engines, 95% of my day was cleaning carburetors. The crap has no business in fuel. Just like any problem in society today, it can be traced DIRECTLY back to our lovely government.
If you have good luck with E10, that just means you store the fuel air tight at all times, and use your equipment regularly. Let E10 sit through the summer months and watch how fast you have problems.
I have fuel barrels of both E10 and E0. E0 goes in all my 2-stroke stuff, except for my '74 RD350, only because it's impractical. Can't find E0 gas around here (MA) - it's NOT sold at the pump ANYWHERE outside of airports (100LL) or marinas on the coast for BIG money. I have to take my barrel a couple hours north or west to get it.
My paramotor runs on nothing but E0. When I first got it, before I even got a chance to fly it, my carburetor clogged up! That was the end of that! And that was mixed with Amsoil Saber, which contains a fuel stabilizer.
EDITED to clarify ... I ran E10 in when I first got it, before I flew it.
I made a PILE of money over the years thanks to ethanol. When I was doing mainly small engines, 95% of my day was cleaning carburetors. The crap has no business in fuel. Just like any problem in society today, it can be traced DIRECTLY back to our lovely government.
If you have good luck with E10, that just means you store the fuel air tight at all times, and use your equipment regularly. Let E10 sit through the summer months and watch how fast you have problems.
I have fuel barrels of both E10 and E0. E0 goes in all my 2-stroke stuff, except for my '74 RD350, only because it's impractical. Can't find E0 gas around here (MA) - it's NOT sold at the pump ANYWHERE outside of airports (100LL) or marinas on the coast for BIG money. I have to take my barrel a couple hours north or west to get it.
My paramotor runs on nothing but E0. When I first got it, before I even got a chance to fly it, my carburetor clogged up! That was the end of that! And that was mixed with Amsoil Saber, which contains a fuel stabilizer.
EDITED to clarify ... I ran E10 in when I first got it, before I flew it.
#54
C
cpainter
C
cpainter
All I can go by is my own experience with ethanol vs non-ethanol fuel. In the mid 2000's I worked as an engineering consultant in Tulsa, Oklahoma while living in central Texas. I could buy non-ethanol fuel in Oklahoma, but not in Texas. I hand calculated fuel mileage on every tank in the 2001 Jeep Cherokee I used at that time. On average, my fuel economy was 10% better on the non-ethanol gas I bought in Oklahoma. In the same timeframe, I was regularly rebuilding, cleaning, or replacing carburetors on my chainsaws, generators, 4-wheelers, and my Yamaha Rhino 660. Eventually the Murphy station at the Walmart in Brownwood, TX started offering non-ethanol fuel and I was able to stock up on it on my occasional trips there. Since then, I have had no more carburetor problems in any of those machines. Maybe it's a coincidence or maybe it's due to the quality of the gasoline in each fuel, but I plan to stick with what has worked for me. We live in a pretty remote area and need various machines to take care of things around here. It's just frustrating that it's so difficult to store gas for any length of time and expect it to run without problems in our machines. Lately, I've leaned towards using diesel machines whenever it's an option, since diesel can be stored for a much longer time.
#55
smhardesty
Knowing that ethanol will carry moisture and also attract moisture out of the air, I'll be advising all my customers to buy ethanol free fuel at the local station that has it. I don't expect a lot of them to follow my advice since the pure unleaded does cost about 50 cents a gallon more. I really only expect customers with high dollar equipment to even consider buying the higher priced fuel and only some of them will actually do it.
As for me, nothing but ethanol free in my OPE and my car. The only time I'd not have pure unleaded in the car will be when we take a longer trip. The range on a tank of fuel in the car is enough to allow me to not have to buy ethanol blended fuel very often. I'm on the second tank in the car now and I have seen no difference in performance and I might be getting one mpg more, but it's way too early to state that as a fact. I need to see what it does over a long period of time and under all sorts of driving before I make a claim of increased fuel economy.
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smhardesty
I agree that both fuel types will leave gum/varnish type deposits if the equipment is left sitting for long periods without running. The big difference I see is that on top of the gum/varnish, ethanol fuels will also cause rust to form on metal surfaces, especially any steel/iron type pieces like the pin on a float. The tiller that was my dad's that I left sit for way to long was a complete disaster when I pulled the carb. Rust was everywhere inside that carb. No amount of soaking would have ever removed it.Non-ethanol fuel will leave the same gum behind in the carb that E-10 will. The gum that is left behind is the non-volatile additives that are put into the gas, such as cleaners and antiknock compounds. When you have a lawnmower with a tank full of gas, and no shutoff valve, as the gas evaporates from the carb, it is replenished with more fuel from the tank until all of the gas is gone, and you have a carb full of gum. Old timers, such as myself, have been having this problem forever, long before they put ethanol in gas. If a mower comes into my shop without a fuel shutoff, I install one and then instruct the customer on its use.
Knowing that ethanol will carry moisture and also attract moisture out of the air, I'll be advising all my customers to buy ethanol free fuel at the local station that has it. I don't expect a lot of them to follow my advice since the pure unleaded does cost about 50 cents a gallon more. I really only expect customers with high dollar equipment to even consider buying the higher priced fuel and only some of them will actually do it.
As for me, nothing but ethanol free in my OPE and my car. The only time I'd not have pure unleaded in the car will be when we take a longer trip. The range on a tank of fuel in the car is enough to allow me to not have to buy ethanol blended fuel very often. I'm on the second tank in the car now and I have seen no difference in performance and I might be getting one mpg more, but it's way too early to state that as a fact. I need to see what it does over a long period of time and under all sorts of driving before I make a claim of increased fuel economy.
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#56
Smithsonite
I've got an '07 Silverado 1500 4x4 - has the LMG 5.3 flex-fuel engine. Whenever I fill up with E0, I get a noticeable power increase, and my mileage goes WAY up. Last run I made up to ME with my flatbed trailer to grab a car, I got 13.5 MPG coming home loaded after filling up with E0, and that was doing 75-80 the whole way back. I normally get 13.5 just driving around town here! HUGE increase in efficiency.
I always let my friends and neighbors know when I'm heading up north - I'll bring their gas cans up to grab E0. Stuff is like gold around here.
Smithsonite
If you keep a barrel air tight, you can keep even E10 usable for a year or more. I wouldn't use 87 octane in something you cared about after that length of time, but it's possible. I've done it. E0 I'd wager would last 3 or more years in the same conditions. It's cold quite a bit up here in MA, so that may have something to do with it, but we've got some pretty crappy pump gas here.All I can go by is my own experience with ethanol vs non-ethanol fuel. In the mid 2000's I worked as an engineering consultant in Tulsa, Oklahoma while living in central Texas. I could buy non-ethanol fuel in Oklahoma, but not in Texas. I hand calculated fuel mileage on every tank in the 2001 Jeep Cherokee I used at that time. On average, my fuel economy was 10% better on the non-ethanol gas I bought in Oklahoma. In the same timeframe, I was regularly rebuilding, cleaning, or replacing carburetors on my chainsaws, generators, 4-wheelers, and my Yamaha Rhino 660. Eventually the Murphy station at the Walmart in Brownwood, TX started offering non-ethanol fuel and I was able to stock up on it on my occasional trips there. Since then, I have had no more carburetor problems in any of those machines. Maybe it's a coincidence or maybe it's due to the quality of the gasoline in each fuel, but I plan to stick with what has worked for me. We live in a pretty remote area and need various machines to take care of things around here. It's just frustrating that it's so difficult to store gas for any length of time and expect it to run without problems in our machines. Lately, I've leaned towards using diesel machines whenever it's an option, since diesel can be stored for a much longer time.
I've got an '07 Silverado 1500 4x4 - has the LMG 5.3 flex-fuel engine. Whenever I fill up with E0, I get a noticeable power increase, and my mileage goes WAY up. Last run I made up to ME with my flatbed trailer to grab a car, I got 13.5 MPG coming home loaded after filling up with E0, and that was doing 75-80 the whole way back. I normally get 13.5 just driving around town here! HUGE increase in efficiency.
I always let my friends and neighbors know when I'm heading up north - I'll bring their gas cans up to grab E0. Stuff is like gold around here.
#57
smhardesty
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smhardesty
I realize your comment was aimed at hollydolly, but I'll reply anyway. I am now running only ethanol free in my car. I'm not sure what your question meant. Are you saying that you can't pump it onto a car for some reason? Could would clarify that question for me? I'm trying to understand what you were getting at.Really, what do you pump into your car?
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#58
Smithsonite
The state is petrified of losing fuel tax revenue, so it's forbidden.
Smithsonite
Keep in mind, here in MA, anything listed on that site is an OPE dealer, powersports dealer, airport, hardware store, or canned fuel sold in the gas station store. Not a drop of E0 is available at ANY pump here in MA. It's all by the can - quarts, gallons, or 5 gallon jugs at $25+ per gallon.where to buy 100% gas in your area.
Pure-gas.org - ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada
Pure-gas.org is the definitive web site listing stations that sell pure gasoline in the U.S. and Canada.
The state is petrified of losing fuel tax revenue, so it's forbidden.
#59
C
cpainter
C
cpainter
I think I felt a significant power increase with the E0 too, but I didn't mention it since I wasn't able to back that up or quantify it factually.I've got an '07 Silverado 1500 4x4 - has the LMG 5.3 flex-fuel engine. Whenever I fill up with E0, I get a noticeable power increase, and my mileage goes WAY up.
#60
smhardesty
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smhardesty
And I have seen MUCH worse in the carbs off engines that have sat for long periods. My own tiller was one of them. I have no one to blame for what I found but myself. I left it with a half full tank of gas, no fuel shutoff, and the fuel was E15. What I found was a rusted mess. Yep, I did it and I paid the price to fix it. Lesson learned. I'm just thankful I use Seafoam in all of my OPE that I use regularly and have for years. My dad didn't and the tiller was a great learning experience. Costly, but a lesson learned, for sure.Carb removed from a 5hp Briggs on a generator on a camper trailer. Generator was rarely used. This is what ethanol will do.
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#61
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Fun, fun! I have more, but this site doesn't allow anything more than flip phone pics ...
Attachments
#62
smhardesty
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smhardesty
Hmmm. I had no idea it would do that. Guess I should just stick with using ethanol free gas and my old faithful Seafoam. Thanks for that tidbit.Be very careful using Methanol in modern engines. It attacks certain types of Plastics and seized a fuel shut off valve on my Yamaha 80. Fortunately I can buy Ethanol free Premium Shell locally for my XLR. I simply drain and run dry seasonal equipment. Done.
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#63
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Oh yeah, methanol is a big no no, unless the fuel system is specifically designed for it. BIG damage ...
#64
smhardesty
One side note on that subject. I am located 35 miles form a Marathon refinery. I was born and raised less than 6 miles from that refinery. Fuel delivery trucks with every imaginable name painted on the sides of the trucks filled up there. We'd see all those different trucks filling up and wonder what the deal was. A lot of my family worked there and they explained the whole thing. When gasoline is produced at a refinery, it's all pretty much the same gas as what is produced at a different refinery. What makes the fuel different is the additives that the gas gets, not the actual gas. So, if a vehicle you drive gets better mileage, or has more power when you buy from one station versus another, it's the additive package that makes the difference. What really causes a lot of arguments is that my car might get better mileage running the gas bought at a Marathon station and your car might get better mileage using gas bought at Casey's. It is entirely possible for that to happen and has caused more than a few arguments between guys.
Just my two cents worth.
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smhardesty
Interesting to see that you get better fuel economy. In my Internet research, I have found websites that state that you will always get better mileage with non-ethanol gas and then there are websites that swear you'll get better mileage with an ethanol blend. That's one reason I keep good records of my fill ups and mileage. I want to know where to buy my gas in order to get the best mileage. It was about 2 years ago that I found, by accident, that I got about 1.5 mpg better mileage buying gas out our local Marathon station as compared to buying gas at the local Casey's. I have no real idea why this is, but I do know that gas at Marathon stations includes STP added to the fuel.If you keep a barrel air tight, you can keep even E10 usable for a year or more. I wouldn't use 87 octane in something you cared about after that length of time, but it's possible. I've done it. E0 I'd wager would last 3 or more years in the same conditions. It's cold quite a bit up here in MA, so that may have something to do with it, but we've got some pretty crappy pump gas here.
I've got an '07 Silverado 1500 4x4 - has the LMG 5.3 flex-fuel engine. Whenever I fill up with E0, I get a noticeable power increase, and my mileage goes WAY up. Last run I made up to ME with my flatbed trailer to grab a car, I got 13.5 MPG coming home loaded after filling up with E0, and that was doing 75-80 the whole way back. I normally get 13.5 just driving around town here! HUGE increase in efficiency.
I always let my friends and neighbors know when I'm heading up north - I'll bring their gas cans up to grab E0. Stuff is like gold around here.
One side note on that subject. I am located 35 miles form a Marathon refinery. I was born and raised less than 6 miles from that refinery. Fuel delivery trucks with every imaginable name painted on the sides of the trucks filled up there. We'd see all those different trucks filling up and wonder what the deal was. A lot of my family worked there and they explained the whole thing. When gasoline is produced at a refinery, it's all pretty much the same gas as what is produced at a different refinery. What makes the fuel different is the additives that the gas gets, not the actual gas. So, if a vehicle you drive gets better mileage, or has more power when you buy from one station versus another, it's the additive package that makes the difference. What really causes a lot of arguments is that my car might get better mileage running the gas bought at a Marathon station and your car might get better mileage using gas bought at Casey's. It is entirely possible for that to happen and has caused more than a few arguments between guys.
Just my two cents worth.
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#65
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Yep, right on the money.
Usually the differences in mileage between E10 gas at different stations is differing alcohol content, I've found. The sticker on the pump says "Up to" 10% ethanol. My local Cumberland Farms I've tested at 7% ethanol. In the city it's always closer to 10%, and your mileage will reflect that. More ethanol in the gasoline equals more profit for the station. Just like drug dealers cutting cocaine with baking soda. Selling less for the same price.
Usually the differences in mileage between E10 gas at different stations is differing alcohol content, I've found. The sticker on the pump says "Up to" 10% ethanol. My local Cumberland Farms I've tested at 7% ethanol. In the city it's always closer to 10%, and your mileage will reflect that. More ethanol in the gasoline equals more profit for the station. Just like drug dealers cutting cocaine with baking soda. Selling less for the same price.
#66
smhardesty
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smhardesty
I agree 100%. That's why I'm not making any claims about power or mileage at this point. I'm only on the second tank of pure gas and that is nowhere near enough to make a real claim. I won't be sure of anything until I have used pure unleaded for several tankfuls and for different kinds of driving. These first two tankfuls have included a lot of highway driving and that isn't what the car does most of now. Since the wife retired, the car is used mostly around town, making very shorts trips. We have actually gone shopping and never got the engine warm. That is what I'm really looking forward to seeing the results of.Ethanol has about 10% less energy, so theoretically you'd get about 10% more in MPG if running pure gas...but if you get 15mpg...would you really notice if you got 16mpg? you'd have to be very specific in your testing to be sure that you are actually getting 10% better mpg
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#67
B
billypumper
B
billypumper
Ethanol has less energy than petrol so if you are running it in an engine that is jetted to lean burn strait fuel then it will be running very lean ( hole in piston type lean ) however that is not a problem for engines designed to burn it
Ethanol burns slower than petrol so the timing needs to be advanced just a smidge on engines not designed to burn it .
Ethanol will adsorb moisture which is good & bad.
The good bit is it will scavenge water that has accumulated in fuel tank & run it through the engine ( where it increases power ) .
The bad bit is when it is water saturated any more water will cause it to drop out ( phase separation )
The water ethanol mix is acidic and will cause galvanic corrosion to zinc plated parts and to a far lesser extent to cast zinc like carbs
The ethanol / water mix will support the growth of bacteria , just the same as the bacteria that can grow in diesel tanks left standing for a long time .
And remember it is only 5% to 15 % so it is not very much ethanol in fuel .
Brazil runs e85 and has been doing so for decades
South Africa ran e95 during the BS embargo in engines designed to run strait petrol without the entire country coming to a grinding hault although they did ban the use of all 2 stroke engines at the time .
While ethanol is touted as a enviromental pollution solution in reality it is a political & financial idea done in order to reduce the amount of imported oil .
Like all of the solutions looking for problem ( seafoam , etc ) weather e?? will cause you grief is very much dependent upon a host of factors that will be unique to your location & engine use .
Naturally the oil industry does everything in its power to accentuate the minor problems that can occur with e?? use and the corn lobby does everything they can to push the benefits of using e??
Some where in the middle is the truth
Bioactive sludge in the bottom of your carb is
Things customers do:
Dump the fuel out if a 2 stroke but not start it and really run the fuel out.
Dump stabilizer in the gas tank and not run engine to get stabilized fuel uo to the carb.
Store equipment half full if gas.
Use premium for off season storage.
Mix motor oil with the fuel to stop rust.
Remove spark plug for safe storage. (Probably some internet BS).
Never ever drain all the fuel from a generator or tiller.
Dump fresh fuel on top of fuel years old fuel and the carb is trashed and tell you it ran last week.
Bring in a piece of equipment saying they think it needs a spark plug and you notice the float bowl is rusted off.
very much as problematic as varnish from strait fuel and a lot easier to clean out .
#68
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
The entire ethanol thing started as a substity for the farmers due to low corn pricesI read somewhere that there are MANY added things to the various blends of mixed gas...
The researcher found that for lowest octane rating E10 the mfg added different additives (solvents and stuff) than from Premium E10....E10 Premium behaved better and had less corrosive additives
I'm confused as to why THEY didn't go with Butanol which has more power and none of the problems of Ethanol. Butanol can be made from grasses which grows MUCH faster than corn, can be made from grass clippings (think golf courses, or residential lawn clippings).
Maddening
Most EFI systems have a excess fuel return to tank so the fuel gets circulated and mixed.Ethanol causes problems in Carburetor Engines. In Fuel Injection Engines there is no place for gas to pool and cause problems. Otherwise we'd have stalled cars all over the roads.
#69
smhardesty
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smhardesty
I'm wondering why you say not to use 87 octane. Are you referring to ethanol blended gas, or are you saying only to use higher octane fuel. High octane fuel is used in ICEs that have high compression ratios. Running 91 or higher octane gasoline in a regular car, truck, or piece of OPE doesn't do anything. The use of high octane gasoline is recommended only in cars with turbochargers or that have high compression engines in them. It really only serves to decrease or eliminate knock in engines that really require high octane.I wouldn't use 87 octane in something you cared about after that length of time, but it's possible.
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#70
smhardesty
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smhardesty
Man, that is just nuts! $25/gallon for ethanol free gas is more than highway robbery. And here I complain about it costing me 50 cents more a gallon compared to E10 or E15 gas.Keep in mind, here in MA, anything listed on that site is an OPE dealer, powersports dealer, airport, hardware store, or canned fuel sold in the gas station store. Not a drop of E0 is available at ANY pump here in MA. It's all by the can - quarts, gallons, or 5 gallon jugs at $25+ per gallon.
The state is petrified of losing fuel tax revenue, so it's forbidden.
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#71
reynoldston
reynoldston
Been using ethanol blend gas for years without any problems. Run the fuel real low at the end of the season then refill with fresh at the beginning of the season. The only engine I use ethanol free fuel is my generator because it sits for long periods of time before running. I say do what makes you feel comfortable because there isn't that much difference in the cost of fuel.
#72
smhardesty
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smhardesty
I'm right there with you. I have made three rather lengthy trips with the car since switching to ethanol free gas. I'm pretty sure I can feel a difference when I step down to pass somebody, or step down just for the hell of it. It's minimal, but I still think I notice an increase in power. I'll know more after running it for a few months.I think I felt a significant power increase with the E0 too, but I didn't mention it since I wasn't able to back that up or quantify it factually.
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#73
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Because when E10 87 sits, it'll end up MUCH lower than 87 in time. I didn't do any testing to prove this - I can just tell by how my equipment runs. My zero turn in my avatar would KNOCK super loudly when first started. That first "pop" was a loud knock on that old fuel. The octane rating had dropped BIG time. Never had that problem with fresh 87 or premium. Another thing is, up here in MA we have winter blend, and summer blend fuels. Winter blend is much more volatile. So that's another part of the equation. I believe I filled that barrel in November the year prior, so that would be winter blend - more prone to knock in the summer heat.I'm wondering why you say not to use 87 octane. Are you referring to ethanol blended gas, or are you saying only to use higher octane fuel. High octane fuel is used in ICEs that have high compression ratios. Running 91 or higher octane gasoline in a regular car, truck, or piece of OPE doesn't do anything. The use of high octane gasoline is recommended only in cars with turbochargers or that have high compression engines in them. It really only serves to decrease or eliminate knock in engines that really require high octane.
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#74
VRR.DYNDNS>BIZ
VRR.DYNDNS>BIZ
O My income loves ethanol. Repeat or returns are a problem because they get it home and add water, I mean gas to the tank and expect my effort solves everything forever.I run a mower shop. I love ethanol!
#75
Smithsonite
I bought a '93 Volvo 940 in 2015 that hadn't run in a couple years. The owner at the time tried to put a fuel pump in himself. I haven't the slightest clue what the hell he did, but he managed to set the fuel pump wiring harness on fire, lol. Being so close to the open fuel tank in the trunk, it probably scared the crap out of him, and he put it up for sale. I could tell he was throwing his hands up on it. I got it for peanuts. We're still driving it today!
Anyway, my point in telling you this is, when I went to start it for the first time, it took over an hour to clear out the injectors. It just flat did NOT want to run. These are old school injectors, too - BIG, beefy, built to last. Try that with anything from the 21st century, and you'll be replacing ALL of them if you want to drive it.
Smithsonite
It clogs injectors just as badly as carburetors. It's just that people tend to use cars and trucks FAR more than OPE. Cars and trucks aren't seasonal, and they're kind of needed in daily life.Ethanol causes problems in Carburetor Engines. In Fuel Injection Engines there is no place for gas to pool and cause problems. Otherwise we'd have stalled cars all over the roads.
I bought a '93 Volvo 940 in 2015 that hadn't run in a couple years. The owner at the time tried to put a fuel pump in himself. I haven't the slightest clue what the hell he did, but he managed to set the fuel pump wiring harness on fire, lol. Being so close to the open fuel tank in the trunk, it probably scared the crap out of him, and he put it up for sale. I could tell he was throwing his hands up on it. I got it for peanuts. We're still driving it today!
Anyway, my point in telling you this is, when I went to start it for the first time, it took over an hour to clear out the injectors. It just flat did NOT want to run. These are old school injectors, too - BIG, beefy, built to last. Try that with anything from the 21st century, and you'll be replacing ALL of them if you want to drive it.
#76
smhardesty
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smhardesty
You got that exactly right. Knowing where you are located tells me you are aware of the ethanol plant in Palestine. I was privy to a lot of conversations between farmers about how much they were going to invest in the plant to be sure it was built locally. Those farmers aren't stupid. They didn't support the building of the plant for grins and giggles. I made a similar comment about farmers in a previous post. If I was a farmer I probably would have done the same thing. I now see the long lines of trucks at that plant waiting to dump corn in the pit. Those farmers aren't delivering to that plant just for fun. The plant normally offers a slight premium over other grain elevators in the area. Local farmers can now realize the higher price of corn locally instead of driving all the way to the river.The entire ethanol thing started as a substity for the farmers due to low corn prices
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#77
reynoldston
reynoldston
Why do they use E85 in race cars? more power.
#78
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Yeah, but they're BUILT for that. Higher compression and tuned to match.
My buddy has a 1k HP 2011 Camaro built for E85. The fuel system alone on that cost him $12,000. Has 3 fuel pumps and 1/2" fuel lines - that's what it takes to make power on E85.
My buddy has a 1k HP 2011 Camaro built for E85. The fuel system alone on that cost him $12,000. Has 3 fuel pumps and 1/2" fuel lines - that's what it takes to make power on E85.
#79
smhardesty
smhardesty
Yep! The carb off the tiller I let sit for over 6 years looked like that, only a little worse. I know there are guys that will argue with me, but I'm 100% convinced that carb ended up that way because Dad used E15 gas with no fuel additives at all. I then let it sit for all those years with that fuel in it. There was still about a cup or more of the gas in the tank when I finally got around to selling it. It was a nasty mess, for sure.Fun, fun! I have more, but this site doesn't allow anything more than flip phone pics ...
#80
tosh
tosh
I don't disagree with any of the previous comments, but here are some observations on the issue from the frozen North.
10% Ethanol is generally not a problem in a larger capacity engine which is run regularly, whether a car, truck or tractor. However, Mercedes (and perhaps other high-end vehicle manufacturers) advise against using Ethanol "enhanced" fuels. Caveat emptor!
Just for fun, if you put one gallon of gasoline with Ethanol in a clear container, add a cup of water, shake it up and let it settle. You end up with Ethanol-free gasoline above a layer of water/Ethanol. Such is the affinity of Ethanol for water, (and which is the root cause of everybody's problems). If you actually measure the quantity of water added and then measure the settled layer after extracting the Ethanol, then you can see the amount of Ethanol removed.
As for the the Iso Propyl Alcohol, that works fine, but the cheap stuff might be "wet" meaning it's diluted with water, thereby reducing it's effectiveness at de-watering the fuel. Simpler to buy gas line de-icer from your local auto store. Comes in a 6 pack of small sealed bottles. Dump one into the tank every 2-3 fills and away goes any issue with difficulty with small amounts of water in the fuel system. Any significant amount of water in the fuel system will tend to freeze around here and good luck when that happens! Waiting until Springtime is one method. Prevention is highly recommended.
10% Ethanol is generally not a problem in a larger capacity engine which is run regularly, whether a car, truck or tractor. However, Mercedes (and perhaps other high-end vehicle manufacturers) advise against using Ethanol "enhanced" fuels. Caveat emptor!
Just for fun, if you put one gallon of gasoline with Ethanol in a clear container, add a cup of water, shake it up and let it settle. You end up with Ethanol-free gasoline above a layer of water/Ethanol. Such is the affinity of Ethanol for water, (and which is the root cause of everybody's problems). If you actually measure the quantity of water added and then measure the settled layer after extracting the Ethanol, then you can see the amount of Ethanol removed.
As for the the Iso Propyl Alcohol, that works fine, but the cheap stuff might be "wet" meaning it's diluted with water, thereby reducing it's effectiveness at de-watering the fuel. Simpler to buy gas line de-icer from your local auto store. Comes in a 6 pack of small sealed bottles. Dump one into the tank every 2-3 fills and away goes any issue with difficulty with small amounts of water in the fuel system. Any significant amount of water in the fuel system will tend to freeze around here and good luck when that happens! Waiting until Springtime is one method. Prevention is highly recommended.
#81
smhardesty
.
smhardesty
OK. I see what you were saying now. I also have no idea about the mechanics and chemistry of fuel. I'd have no way to test such things either. I wonder how much difference it is going to make with pure unleaded being in all my OPE this winter. For that matter, any and all of the equipment I am refurbishing for resell also has pure unleaded in it. Maybe the customers will be a little happier when they fire the equipment up come spring.Because when E10 87 sits, it'll end up MUCH lower than 87 in time. I didn't do any testing to prove this - I can just tell by how my equipment runs. My zero turn in my avatar would KNOCK super loudly when first started. That first "pop" was a loud knock on that old fuel. The octane rating had dropped BIG time. Never had that problem with fresh 87 or premium. Another thing is, up here in MA we have winter blend, and summer blend fuels. Winter blend is much more volatile. So that's another part of the equation. I believe I filled that barrel in November the year prior, so that would be winter blend - more prone to knock in the summer heat.
.
#82
smhardesty
.
smhardesty
Never heard that one before. Do you have any idea how well that would work on a small engine that has had water in it? I usually pull the tank, fuel lines, and carburetor to remove excess water. If the engine is still running, even poorly, I wonder how well that trick would work to remove what water is in the system.Simpler to buy gas line de-icer from your local auto store. Comes in a 6 pack of small sealed bottles. Dump one into the tank every 2-3 fills and away goes any issue with difficulty with small amounts of water in the fuel system. Any significant amount of water in the fuel system will tend to freeze around here and good luck when that happens! Waiting until Springtime is one method. Prevention is highly recommended.
.
#83
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
More familiar with the Peoria plant. Had a couple uncles retire from there. Some there when they made corn syrup.You got that exactly right. Knowing where you are located tells me you are aware of the ethanol plant in Palestine. I was privy to a lot of conversations between farmers about how much they were going to invest in the plant to be sure it was built locally. Those farmers aren't stupid. They didn't support the building of the plant for grins and giggles. I made a similar comment about farmers in a previous post. If I was a farmer I probably would have done the same thing. I now see the long lines of trucks at that plant waiting to dump corn in the pit. Those farmers aren't delivering to that plant just for fun. The plant normally offers a slight premium over other grain elevators in the area. Local farmers can now realize the higher price of corn locally instead of driving all the way to the river.
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#84
T
TobyU
Now having said this it's not just because of ethanol. Someone else touched on this there's lots of additives in the fuel and fuel is just junk compared to what it used to be. It's not really the ethanol's fault but everybody blames it on ethanol.
It's simply that gas isn't as good as it was in 1980 or 85 or even 95. If we could go back in time and get a gallon of 1988 unleaded fuel and then mix it so it's 10% ethanol it would last far longer sitting in your equipment in the off season and not give nearly as many problems as the current fuel with 10% ethanol does.
Ethanol actually helps in some instances because it does absorb the fuel and as long as you run the machines frequently enough you will burn that all out. If you never use any fuel line antifreeze or anything in your tank over the years you can accumulate a layer to even maybe a quarter inch of water at the bottom of your tank because gas always floats on top of water and most but this various due to tank design and what type of carburetor. On the old Briggs & strattons with the metal tank it sucked from down near the bottom but not all the way on the bottom. Most tanks are gravity Fed so the nipple on the bottom of the tank is at the very bottom so if you have any water it's going to go straight to your carburetor first and probably create a no start. Many of the riders especially zero turns have a dip tube that sucks the fuel down near the bottom of the tank about an inch off the bottom so it's not gravity fed out of the bottom. So there's no real consistency.
T
TobyU
I agree with a lot of this but not all of it has been my experience. It doesn't matter that Angie's were designed to handle 10% ethanol are not after a certain year. That just means the rubber and plastic parts are supposed to be a little bit more resistant to deterioration it doesn't have anything to do with the actual design of the carburetor bowls etc so it makes no difference with the problems we have with starting after they sit. This is proven by the fact that there is an epidemic problem without door power equipment not starting and it's always feel related.All small engines built after 2009 are designed to run on E10 (10% or less) ethanol fuel. Use a fuel stabilizer when storing the engine for more than a few months. The best way is to use the fuel stabilizer in the tank and then run the engine completely out of fuel. (The fuel stabilizer will coat the internal parts and keep the aluminum from oxidizing)
If your engine is 2007 or older you should run non-ethanol fuel. (E10 can burn the valves)
If your engine is a 1978 or older you should run non-ethanol fuel and add a lead additive (unless the valves have been replaced with hardened valves)
Small engines with EFI use a sealed fuel system so a fuel stabilizer is not needed but I still recommend using it for long-term storage.
If your car is 2001 or newer it is designed to run on E15 fuel. Running straight gas may increase the fuel mileage a small amount. The EFI automatically adjusts the fuel mixture. If your car has a yellow gas cap or a flex-fuel badge on the rear it's also designed to run on E85.
Ethanol absorbs moisture so if you store your equipment in a controlled humidity environment you won't have any issues. If you store your fuel in an approved, sealed container you won't have any issues (though I still add Seafoam in the winter)
If you have old fuel just put it in your vehicle - it doesn't care and the EFI will automatically adjust.
Now having said this it's not just because of ethanol. Someone else touched on this there's lots of additives in the fuel and fuel is just junk compared to what it used to be. It's not really the ethanol's fault but everybody blames it on ethanol.
It's simply that gas isn't as good as it was in 1980 or 85 or even 95. If we could go back in time and get a gallon of 1988 unleaded fuel and then mix it so it's 10% ethanol it would last far longer sitting in your equipment in the off season and not give nearly as many problems as the current fuel with 10% ethanol does.
Ethanol actually helps in some instances because it does absorb the fuel and as long as you run the machines frequently enough you will burn that all out. If you never use any fuel line antifreeze or anything in your tank over the years you can accumulate a layer to even maybe a quarter inch of water at the bottom of your tank because gas always floats on top of water and most but this various due to tank design and what type of carburetor. On the old Briggs & strattons with the metal tank it sucked from down near the bottom but not all the way on the bottom. Most tanks are gravity Fed so the nipple on the bottom of the tank is at the very bottom so if you have any water it's going to go straight to your carburetor first and probably create a no start. Many of the riders especially zero turns have a dip tube that sucks the fuel down near the bottom of the tank about an inch off the bottom so it's not gravity fed out of the bottom. So there's no real consistency.
#85
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Hold on there hombre. You trying to cut into my best revenue stream? Ethanol makes me money.Just say NO to E-10.
#86
oldsquare1
oldsquare1
The included attachment pic shows 4 carb bowls from identical engines which were started once a month for 18 months. Top left had only non-eth gas. The other 3 had "regular" pump gas (with ethanol), some with different preservative additives. The pictures speak for themselves...gas with ethanol added is BAD for small engines. What really sucks is I have to pay almost a dollar more per gallon for gas that does NOT have the added ethanol.I guess this is the best place for this. If not, feel free to move it where it should be.
I have had a few discussions with people recently about ethanol. A couple of the guys I talked with flat out disputed that ethanol causes any problems in internal combustion engines. It just so happens that both of them are farmers that grow corn. Strange, isn't it? LOL! After what my own automotive mechanic has told me and what I have seen inside carbs on small engines that have sat for extended periods with an ethanol blend in them, I'm pretty sure ethanol isn't really good for ANY internal combustion engine. I'm doubly sure it's not good for small engines that sit in the shed for 6 months at a time. That's especially true for any engine that the owner does nothing to prepare the equipment for winter storage. Anyway, I found the screenshot below while searching for additional info on ethanol blended gas. I think it explains the harm that blended gas can cause in a really simplified, yet informative, manner. I intend to print this on an 8"x11" sheet of card stock, stuff it inside a clear, protective sleeve, and then staple it to one of the walls in my garage. I do have a couple of plastic gas caps with symbols indicating that ONLY 5% or 10% ethanol blend is acceptable and also shows that 15% is NOT acceptable.
I did get some good news regarding gasoline available in my area. I thought there was no place in town to buy straight unleaded. My dentist actually told me about a place that offers pure unleaded. He has refused to put blended gas in any of his vehicles or in any of his OPE. One of the two truck stops we have in town has one, single pump that is for straight unleaded. It costs an extra 10 cents a gallon, give or take, but with gas at $3.25 to $3.50, what difference does a dime a gallon make? LOL! I'll be buying 100% of my gas from there effective immediately. I'm going to be REAL curious to see what happens to my mileage. I keep great records of every fill up in the car, so should be able to detect any change in mileage. We'll see.
Oh, and the second point in the screenshot is exactly why I run a can of Seafoam though my car pretty regularly. I know there are other products that will do the same thing, or even better, but since I use Seafoam for so many other things that's what I stick in the car. I was just told recently that the best thing to use for small amounts of water in a vehicle's gas tank is isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores. I've never tried it, but might get a little to keep on hand. I haven't yet researched it, but I'm wondering what the difference is between the isopropyl alcohol sold at parts stores and isopropyl alcohol sold at pharmacies or even Walmart. Is it the same thing?
View attachment 63250
Attachments
#87
N
need-for-speed
Just to be safe, I do run E0 in all of my 2 cycle stuff.
N
need-for-speed
Does cold weather make it worse (even for E0)? I live in the Houston area and never seem to have issues.Basically the people run their equipment on a regular basis don't have problems
Just to be safe, I do run E0 in all of my 2 cycle stuff.
#88
N
need-for-speed
cheers.
N
need-for-speed
I agree with all of that except the reason behind the .gov mandates for ethanol in fuel. It is for the PERCEPTION that we will import less oil, but in reality, it is to buy Midwestern votes.Ethanol has less energy than petrol so if you are running it in an engine that is jetted to lean burn strait fuel then it will be running very lean ( hole in piston type lean ) however that is not a problem for engines designed to burn it
Ethanol burns slower than petrol so the timing needs to be advanced just a smidge on engines not designed to burn it .
Ethanol will adsorb moisture which is good & bad.
The good bit is it will scavenge water that has accumulated in fuel tank & run it through the engine ( where it increases power ) .
The bad bit is when it is water saturated any more water will cause it to drop out ( phase separation )
The water ethanol mix is acidic and will cause galvanic corrosion to zinc plated parts and to a far lesser extent to cast zinc like carbs
The ethanol / water mix will support the growth of bacteria , just the same as the bacteria that can grow in diesel tanks left standing for a long time .
And remember it is only 5% to 15 % so it is not very much ethanol in fuel .
Brazil runs e85 and has been doing so for decades
South Africa ran e95 during the BS embargo in engines designed to run strait petrol without the entire country coming to a grinding hault although they did ban the use of all 2 stroke engines at the time .
While ethanol is touted as a enviromental pollution solution in reality it is a political & financial idea done in order to reduce the amount of imported oil .
Like all of the solutions looking for problem ( seafoam , etc ) weather e?? will cause you grief is very much dependent upon a host of factors that will be unique to your location & engine use .
Naturally the oil industry does everything in its power to accentuate the minor problems that can occur with e?? use and the corn lobby does everything they can to push the benefits of using e??
Some where in the middle is the truth
Bioactive sludge in the bottom of your carb is very much as problematic as varnish from strait fuel and a lot easier to clean out .
cheers.
#89
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
Kind of complicated due to fuel being blended differently depending on climate and location. Some area wil have 4 blends depending time of year. More volatile fuel blends in the winter.Does cold weather make it worse (even for E0)? I live in the Houston area and never seem to have issues.
Just to be safe, I do run E0 in all of my 2 cycle stuff.
#90
B
bertsmobile1
Bench testing is more expensive
Field testing is more expensive still
BEcause of this the amount of testing done was proportional to the cost or consequences of not doing the testing
Thus the avaition industry did the most extensive testing ( no surprise in that ) .
Then cheaper industries grabbed the coat tails of the avaition testing and extrapolated from that
So yes valve seats do burn, but not many cars, motorcycles or lawnmowers end up at 20,000 feet and running lean burn situation.
But these results were picked up and reported by the media because it was sensational & would cause you to buy the magazine so lots of $$$$$ for the publishers .
The same happened with ethanol in fuels, remember when South Africa was under the BS embargo they could not buy oil directly so it became unbelievably expensive.
The solution was 100% ethanol and caster oil which worked fine but it did highlight all of the problems encountered when burning a fuel in an engine that it was not designed for .
South America has been running e-85 for decades and they have not all blown up all of their engines
Bad practices / laziness will always cause you problems
Leave 100 fuel in your mower all year long & it will evaporate and leave a gum deposit that will not redissolve in the fuel so will require an expensive cleaning or carb replacement
Do the same with ethanol and you MIGHT get some phase separation and the dropped out water will grow bacteria ( similar to the diesel bacteria ) that forms that milky deposits which is many times more corrosive and is what makes the mess & destroys your zinc carbs
And all this is very dependent upon the actual microclimate where the item is stored .
As previously mentioned, sealing the system will drastically reduce the volume of water because it can only come from the air .
B
bertsmobile1
Research is expensiveI know I'm not the smartest person out there. But I've been listening to these conversations for years now, and it takes me back to the years before leaded gasoline was banned, and all the horror stories that were predicted then. Well I'm still running my 1964 MF35 and I haven't burned up my valves or any part of the engine due to lack of lead lubrication. Yes, I have seen carbs that sat for a year or more with crystals in the float bowl, but any of my engines, small or large have not had those problems. Another thing I have noticed is that here in northwest Pa. where dry gas was a must have on hand product, is very rare if even available any more. Hmm, what were the main ingredients in dry gas? Ethanol and Isopropyl. Just saying. This is my own personal opinion, but ethanol gas has been around for sometime now, isn't it time the manufacturers adapt their products? One of the main complaints I had heard when this all started back a few years ago was the ethanol ruined the gaskets in the carbs. Well make the gaskets of better material, don't just complain as some CEOs have done.
Bench testing is more expensive
Field testing is more expensive still
BEcause of this the amount of testing done was proportional to the cost or consequences of not doing the testing
Thus the avaition industry did the most extensive testing ( no surprise in that ) .
Then cheaper industries grabbed the coat tails of the avaition testing and extrapolated from that
So yes valve seats do burn, but not many cars, motorcycles or lawnmowers end up at 20,000 feet and running lean burn situation.
But these results were picked up and reported by the media because it was sensational & would cause you to buy the magazine so lots of $$$$$ for the publishers .
The same happened with ethanol in fuels, remember when South Africa was under the BS embargo they could not buy oil directly so it became unbelievably expensive.
The solution was 100% ethanol and caster oil which worked fine but it did highlight all of the problems encountered when burning a fuel in an engine that it was not designed for .
South America has been running e-85 for decades and they have not all blown up all of their engines
Bad practices / laziness will always cause you problems
Leave 100 fuel in your mower all year long & it will evaporate and leave a gum deposit that will not redissolve in the fuel so will require an expensive cleaning or carb replacement
Do the same with ethanol and you MIGHT get some phase separation and the dropped out water will grow bacteria ( similar to the diesel bacteria ) that forms that milky deposits which is many times more corrosive and is what makes the mess & destroys your zinc carbs
And all this is very dependent upon the actual microclimate where the item is stored .
As previously mentioned, sealing the system will drastically reduce the volume of water because it can only come from the air .
#91
B
bertsmobile1
However it does not reduce the volume of oil needed for all the other stuff we make from it like plastics & fertalizers .
South Africa proved just how much oil consumption can be reduced .
But you are right politics is always a part of it
Gets votes for the corn growers & gets votes from the environmentalist Gets votes from the nationalists .
B
bertsmobile1
Actually it does reduce the volume of oil needed for fuelI agree with all of that except the reason behind the .gov mandates for ethanol in fuel. It is for the PERCEPTION that we will import less oil, but in reality, it is to buy Midwestern votes.
cheers.
However it does not reduce the volume of oil needed for all the other stuff we make from it like plastics & fertalizers .
South Africa proved just how much oil consumption can be reduced .
But you are right politics is always a part of it
Gets votes for the corn growers & gets votes from the environmentalist Gets votes from the nationalists .
#92
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
I always thought the main reason for adding ethanol was for emissions.
Like I mentioned several posts back, to get my '85 Monte to pass emissions, I'd add 4 bottles of Christy Drygas (isopropyl alcohol) to a half tank of gas, then go out and drive around in 1st gear to get the cat smoking hot for the emission sniffer test. I'll never forget at this one station I was reading 2,250 PPM of hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel - limit was 220, lol) - needed a tune up, but the car was on its last leg and I was broke. Told the guy I'd be back. After my trick, it passed with flying colors. 100 PPM±. The guy was wide-eyed! "What the hell did you do to this thing?" He couldn't believe it. I never did tell him. I said, "I fixed it."
I mentioned this to my buddy in CA who was failing smog - he tried it and it did nothing, presumably because there's already too much ethanol in their fuel. I'd wager that trick doesn't work anymore for that reason in all 50 states.
Like I mentioned several posts back, to get my '85 Monte to pass emissions, I'd add 4 bottles of Christy Drygas (isopropyl alcohol) to a half tank of gas, then go out and drive around in 1st gear to get the cat smoking hot for the emission sniffer test. I'll never forget at this one station I was reading 2,250 PPM of hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel - limit was 220, lol) - needed a tune up, but the car was on its last leg and I was broke. Told the guy I'd be back. After my trick, it passed with flying colors. 100 PPM±. The guy was wide-eyed! "What the hell did you do to this thing?" He couldn't believe it. I never did tell him. I said, "I fixed it."
I mentioned this to my buddy in CA who was failing smog - he tried it and it did nothing, presumably because there's already too much ethanol in their fuel. I'd wager that trick doesn't work anymore for that reason in all 50 states.
#93
T
ttolar2
T
ttolar2
Small-engine manufacturers warn that ethanol can dissolve plastic and create harmful deposits, leading to costly repairs. Since the ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs water from the air, causing the fuel blend to separate. Ethanol can be extremely damaging to small engines and high-powered sports equipment, leading to corrosion of the engine and fuel system. Great fuel substitute just all around bad in small engines. 80% of my work is carburetor repair and cleans because of Ethanol.
#94
smhardesty
.
smhardesty
Yep. That looks like a few carbs I've had myself. The one I pulled off the tiller that was my dad's looked even worse.The included attachment pic shows 4 carb bowls from identical engines which were started once a month for 18 months. Top left had only non-eth gas. The other 3 had "regular" pump gas (with ethanol), some with different preservative additives. The pictures speak for themselves...gas with ethanol added is BAD for small engines. What really sucks is I have to pay almost a dollar more per gallon for gas that does NOT have the added ethanol.
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#95
7394
I can remember after all else failed, running the gas tank almost empty, & then adding a gallon of denatured alcohol, my '74 Monte ran like crap, but passed emissions in Fla flying colors. Then after, go straight to gas station & add good gas..
Good old days..
7394
I always thought the main reason for adding ethanol was for emissions.
Like I mentioned several posts back, to get my '85 Monte to pass emissions, I'd add 4 bottles of Christy Drygas (isopropyl alcohol) to a half tank of gas, then go out and drive around in 1st gear to get the cat smoking hot for the emission sniffer test. I'll never forget at this one station I was reading 2,250 PPM of hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel - limit was 220, lol) - needed a tune up, but the car was on its last leg and I was broke. Told the guy I'd be back. After my trick, it passed with flying colors. 100 PPM±. The guy was wide-eyed! "What the hell did you do to this thing?" He couldn't believe it. I never did tell him. I said, "I fixed it."
I mentioned this to my buddy in CA who was failing smog - he tried it and it did nothing, presumably because there's already too much ethanol in their fuel. I'd wager that trick doesn't work anymore for that reason in all 50 states.
I can remember after all else failed, running the gas tank almost empty, & then adding a gallon of denatured alcohol, my '74 Monte ran like crap, but passed emissions in Fla flying colors. Then after, go straight to gas station & add good gas..
Good old days..
#96
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Indeed! I need a time machine. I'd get back there, then smash it.
#97
StarTech
StarTech
I don't know about smashing it but if we all knew what we know now there would a lot more billionaires.Indeed! I need a time machine. I'd get back there, then smash it.
#98
7394
7394
Agreed on that...........
#99
T
Tbone0106
Sure, sometimes it's a problem with a spark plug, or a kill wire getting pinched, or a really clogged air filter. Sometimes it's even mice munching on the spark plug wire. But 95% of the time -- no, WAY more than that -- it's crap in the carburetor, and that crap can almost always be traced back to the ethanol in the pump gas most people use.
I laugh when people talk about ethanol being 'blended' into gasoline. It is not like throwing together a whiskey and soda. It is a much more complicated and violent process. Gasoline and ethanol (or corn liquor, as it is made in the US) do not mix naturally. They must be forced together, and they are eager to depart one another. I have made my own ethanol-free gasoline from E10 pump gas by simply mixing the pump gas with water and allowing it to separate; when it does, it takes all the ethanol with it. That's how much water and ethanol love one another.
T
Tbone0106
I can't count the times I've cracked carbs that are infested with deposits of rust or lime. These things are not carried with gasoline. They come with WATER, which ethanol brings along as its pal.I think buying ethanol free gas is a giant waste of money. I've never done it, ever. My equipment sits all winter (nearly 6 months) in an unheated shop. I don't use fuel stabilizer. I don't user battery tenders. I've honestly only cleaned one carb. My oldest piece of equipment is 15 years old, but most of it is around 5 years old. If you buy high-quality, professional grade equipment, you'll find the carburetors are better made. Replacing an OEM, commercial grade carb with an eBay $20 chinese special is a huge downgrade. Just clean and repair the OEM carb. I have a ton of small engine equipment, including some two stroke stuff. In addition, I have a couple of snowmobiles that sit all but about 3 months of the year, a motorcycle that sits probably 7 months, an ATV that sits a lot, etc, etc. Same treatment for those items - they just sit with regular E10 in the tank in cold storage and never have an issue. If you guys want to swear by buying expensive gas or dumping a lot of additives in, feel free, but I don't see the need.
Sure, sometimes it's a problem with a spark plug, or a kill wire getting pinched, or a really clogged air filter. Sometimes it's even mice munching on the spark plug wire. But 95% of the time -- no, WAY more than that -- it's crap in the carburetor, and that crap can almost always be traced back to the ethanol in the pump gas most people use.
I laugh when people talk about ethanol being 'blended' into gasoline. It is not like throwing together a whiskey and soda. It is a much more complicated and violent process. Gasoline and ethanol (or corn liquor, as it is made in the US) do not mix naturally. They must be forced together, and they are eager to depart one another. I have made my own ethanol-free gasoline from E10 pump gas by simply mixing the pump gas with water and allowing it to separate; when it does, it takes all the ethanol with it. That's how much water and ethanol love one another.
#100
T
Tbone0106
T
Tbone0106
There are actually a couple dozen places in Taxachusetts to get the pure stuff. Many are at marinas or airports, where people tend to be VERY serious about the gas they put in their tanks.Here in taxachusetts you can't get non ethanol fuel... but it doesn't bother me.. In the decades of using e10, Ive never had an ethanol related problem.. If I'm not going to use a peice of equipment for an extended period, I dump the tank, then run a bit of true fuel through the machine...
#101
B
Beesnweeds
If ethanol fuel was good, it would be used in aircraft. Because of technical and legal reasons you'll never see a pilot fill up his tank with ethanol based fuel.
B
Beesnweeds
Its minus 25 here today and if you leave a gas can of ethanol fuel outside it will have a chunk of ice banging around in it. If you could get the ice out it may actually make the fuel better. Non ethanol no problems in the cold.Does cold weather make it worse (even for E0)? I live in the Houston area and never seem to have issues.
Just to be safe, I do run E0 in all of my 2 cycle stuff.
If ethanol fuel was good, it would be used in aircraft. Because of technical and legal reasons you'll never see a pilot fill up his tank with ethanol based fuel.
#102
Smithsonite
The problem with marinas is, when you live west of Worcester, you might as well just go to NY, NH, or ME, and buy in bulk. WAY cheaper!
Smithsonite
Nowhere can you get it at the pump, except those 2 places. Problem with airports is, #1, the cost - deep-$5/gallon around here, and #2, lead. Lead won't be a problem until you get some hours on the equipment. Then it can foul plugs and help plug exhaust ports, build up on heads, etc.. That's why they make a very expensive additive called TCP for aircraft.There are actually a couple dozen places in Taxachusetts to get the pure stuff. Many are at marinas or airports, where people tend to be VERY serious about the gas they put in their tanks.
The problem with marinas is, when you live west of Worcester, you might as well just go to NY, NH, or ME, and buy in bulk. WAY cheaper!
#103
T
Tbone0106
It is very difficult to get here in Ohio also. Marinas and airports are the most likely places, and airports often won't sell the stuff to the public, or the only thing they offer is prohibitively expensive 100-octane stuff. I am happy to learn recently that a new gas station in the town near me is going to offer non-ethanol gas at the pump. They will be getting my business.
T
Tbone0106
I didn't say there were a couple dozen places to get non-ethanol gasoline on your street. I said there are a couple dozen places in Massachusetts to get non-ethanol gas.Nowhere can you get it at the pump, except those 2 places. Problem with airports is, #1, the cost - deep-$5/gallon around here, and #2, lead. Lead won't be a problem until you get some hours on the equipment. Then it can foul plugs and help plug exhaust ports, build up on heads, etc.. That's why they make a very expensive additive called TCP for aircraft.
The problem with marinas is, when you live west of Worcester, you might as well just go to NY, NH, or ME, and buy in bulk. WAY cheaper!
It is very difficult to get here in Ohio also. Marinas and airports are the most likely places, and airports often won't sell the stuff to the public, or the only thing they offer is prohibitively expensive 100-octane stuff. I am happy to learn recently that a new gas station in the town near me is going to offer non-ethanol gas at the pump. They will be getting my business.
#104
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
When I was in eastern OH a few years back, I found 90 octane at a small gas station right near a major highway. I filled up my 2.5 gallon can and brought it home with me. Cheap, too! I'd have bought more, but we had our little Volvo 940 packed to the roof with camping shit, plus stuff we stockpiled from the Amish, lol.
#105
B
Beesnweeds
B
Beesnweeds
If that was the case it would be run in aircraft.Basically the people run their equipment on a regular basis don't have problems
#106
T
Tbone0106
But if the little Continental flat-four in your Piper Cub takes a shit when you're buzzing along 3,000 feet above the surface of the earth, that ain't funny.
When it's life-and-death, ethanol has no place.
T
Tbone0106
Exactly. If your weed-whacker or your chainsaw quits because the gas is junk, oh well. Time to go through the carb.If that was the case it would be run in aircraft.
But if the little Continental flat-four in your Piper Cub takes a shit when you're buzzing along 3,000 feet above the surface of the earth, that ain't funny.
When it's life-and-death, ethanol has no place.
#107
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
I won't even run E10 in my paramotor, and I've got over a 9:1 glide ratio. 
#108
I
ILENGINE
I
ILENGINE
How often do the commercial mowing crews have ethanol and carb issue. How often do you see ethanol issues with vehicles. And I suspect the reason you don't allow ethanol is airplane has less to do with the ethanol, and more to do with atmospheric effects on the engine and venturi cooling effect on the intake causing icing. Which the ethanol would be more prone to icing because of the water that is in suspension just from the manufacturing of the ethanol.If that was the case it would be run in aircraft.
#109
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
When cars aren't driven at least weekly, I've seen the exact same issues with them as with OPE. Ethanol separation in the tank, then the return action of the pump mixes it all up and friggs up the injectors.
Also just the fuel sitting in the line, rail, and injectors will go bad and screw things up, too. Cars are a little bit more immune to it because the EVAP system keeps the tank air tight.
Oh, and one of my best customers was a commercial landscaper. She had constant carburetor issues until I told her how to store fuel - keep the caps tight, don't leave them outside all night long, run Amsoil Saber in the 2-strokes, etc.. That cut down on a majority of her issues.
Back when I was a kid, you could leave a gas can outside with no cap, and dump it in equipment 3 months later and it would run, so long as you left the water at the bottom of the can.
Also just the fuel sitting in the line, rail, and injectors will go bad and screw things up, too. Cars are a little bit more immune to it because the EVAP system keeps the tank air tight.
Oh, and one of my best customers was a commercial landscaper. She had constant carburetor issues until I told her how to store fuel - keep the caps tight, don't leave them outside all night long, run Amsoil Saber in the 2-strokes, etc.. That cut down on a majority of her issues.
Back when I was a kid, you could leave a gas can outside with no cap, and dump it in equipment 3 months later and it would run, so long as you left the water at the bottom of the can.
#110
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
As much as i hate letting a motor set with ethanol in it i have a 1989 motor home with a carbureted 454. It sat for 5 years in the barn with a battery tender on it. I figured the carb was trashed but i thought i would try to start it. It fired rigth up and ran fine. Amazing.
#111
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Sometimes you get lucky. Depends on how the carb vents some are better (or worse) than others.
My brother had a '93 Suzuki DR350 that was converted to a dual sport - if you forgot to turn the petcock off as you were close to the house to run the bowl down, that thing would clog right up in 5-7 days flat! It was at my shop for a while working through some electrical bugs when I did this a couple times. MAN did that piss me off! Already had hours into the charging system and turn signals, now I have to yank the carb and clean that ... 3x!! If you shut the fuel off and drained the bowl, it would start FIRST KICK the next ride. Unbelievable, lol.
My brother had a '93 Suzuki DR350 that was converted to a dual sport - if you forgot to turn the petcock off as you were close to the house to run the bowl down, that thing would clog right up in 5-7 days flat! It was at my shop for a while working through some electrical bugs when I did this a couple times. MAN did that piss me off! Already had hours into the charging system and turn signals, now I have to yank the carb and clean that ... 3x!! If you shut the fuel off and drained the bowl, it would start FIRST KICK the next ride. Unbelievable, lol.
#112
N
need-for-speed
N
need-for-speed
I run the carb dry on my 15 y.o. Honda powered Black Max generator. I run it once a quarter (that prolly helps). It usually starts on first pull. Third pull never needed. I know some have added a (tiny little lol) cut off valve on their weed eater or blower for that reason.Sometimes you get lucky. Depends on how the carb vents some are better (or worse) than others.
My brother had a '93 Suzuki DR350 that was converted to a dual sport - if you forgot to turn the petcock off as you were close to the house to run the bowl down, that thing would clog right up in 5-7 days flat! It was at my shop for a while working through some electrical bugs when I did this a couple times. MAN did that piss me off! Already had hours into the charging system and turn signals, now I have to yank the carb and clean that ... 3x!! If you shut the fuel off and drained the bowl, it would start FIRST KICK the next ride. Unbelievable, lol.
#113
N
need-for-speed
N
need-for-speed
Be sure to aks the right questions when buying Ethanol Free free fuel at a marina. . Around here I found out that several Marinas on Lake Conroe had Ethanol in the fuel, but they just added a shit ton of additives for that.
Our local QT also sells 90 octane E free.
Our local QT also sells 90 octane E free.
#114
7394
7394
I test my 100% every so often.. Very simple to do. 
#115
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Yeah, I've found gas stations around MA are widely varying in alcohol content. Near or in the cities they're closer to 10%, while the ones around me are 6-7%. Explains the poor mileage whenever I fueled up in the city.
#116
7394
7394
I run 100% gas 87 octane in my truck & it does very well on mileage.
#117
S
sidemouse
S
sidemouse
So what should I do, and if everyone insists on getting pure gasoline then what happens?
Exactly.
Exactly.
#118
7394
7394
Do what you think is best.....
#119
M
mcspeed
M
mcspeed
I have a 30 year old two stroke chain saw that I never drain the fuel in. It may go unused for several years. Never had a fuel issue and always starts right up. Does the oil in the fuel help alleviate the ethanol issues? I don’t have easy access to ethanol free fuel but have been lucky I guess.
#120
T
Tbone0106
T
Tbone0106
Exactly. Ethanol is the lifeblood of a mower shop.I run a mower shop. I love ethanol!
#121
T
Tbone0106
But then there are things like snowmobiles, snowblowers, rototillers, chainsaws, etc. that are often used once or twice a year, or sometimes not for two or three years.
There is no escaping the fact that ethanol is hydrophilic, meaning that it blends easily with water and actually pulls water from the air. The unspeakable crud and corrosion you find in carbs on equipment that isn't used regularly is the result of water contamination and the acidic combination of water and ethanol. I can't count the times I have found actual lime deposits in carburetors. Lime deposits don't come from gasoline. They don't come from ethanol. They come from WATER.
T
Tbone0106
If the engine is run on a daily or weekly basis, there aren't usually problems.Basically the people run their equipment on a regular basis don't have problems
But then there are things like snowmobiles, snowblowers, rototillers, chainsaws, etc. that are often used once or twice a year, or sometimes not for two or three years.
There is no escaping the fact that ethanol is hydrophilic, meaning that it blends easily with water and actually pulls water from the air. The unspeakable crud and corrosion you find in carbs on equipment that isn't used regularly is the result of water contamination and the acidic combination of water and ethanol. I can't count the times I have found actual lime deposits in carburetors. Lime deposits don't come from gasoline. They don't come from ethanol. They come from WATER.
#122
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Yeah, I've seen it all from green crap, black crap, jello, and brown molasses-like goo. Used to see the goo more back in the old days. These days it's mostly jello, or green.
#123
T
Tbone0106
T
Tbone0106
Of course, there's no substitute for running 'em dry before you put 'em up for the season. But I have never been able to fathom a non-political reason to put corn likker in our gasoline. It takes a LOT more (mostly fossil-fueled) energy to make a gallon of the stuff than we can ever get out of it.Yeah, I've seen it all from green crap, black crap, jello, and brown molasses-like goo. Used to see the goo more back in the old days. These days it's mostly jello, or green.
#124
P
perzaklie
Photos tell more than words. A person brought their camper trailer to me with problem that the generator would not start.
This is the carb bowl I removed from the 5hp B&S powered generator. It had nothing but ethanol gas from the day it was new.
I have two generators that have had nothing but ethanol gas since they were new. The carb bowls on both are clean. Why? I turn off the gas and run them dry
is the only reason I can think of. If mine ever get in this shape, it will be my fault. Ethanol free gas is available but it's a 20 mile drive to get it and it's expensive.
So, I have it available, I choose not to use it, I have no excuses.
P
perzaklie
Photos tell more than words. A person brought their camper trailer to me with problem that the generator would not start.
This is the carb bowl I removed from the 5hp B&S powered generator. It had nothing but ethanol gas from the day it was new.
I have two generators that have had nothing but ethanol gas since they were new. The carb bowls on both are clean. Why? I turn off the gas and run them dry
is the only reason I can think of. If mine ever get in this shape, it will be my fault. Ethanol free gas is available but it's a 20 mile drive to get it and it's expensive.
So, I have it available, I choose not to use it, I have no excuses.
#125
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Indeed.
These are the only pics small enough for upload here. I have many, many more!
These are the only pics small enough for upload here. I have many, many more!
#126
G
Gord Baker
G
Gord Baker
You likely have other issues if Ethanol is a problem in 5-7 days. Clean out the entire fuel system including the tank.
#127
T
TobyU
I tell people all the time especially if they ask about it but that was an old school method that some people still swear by but yet I get a decent percentage of customers bringing me mowers that say they did that but....yet here they are with a mower that won't start and run.
The expression running them dry still doesn't get them completely dry.
It's better than doing nothing but you still have about half of the float bowl in a float bowl type system with fuel in there that is certainly going to evaporate and just a few days to a week or so.
It's what is Left behind after this evaporation that can still cause problems.
You just don't know how much white powdery crap, green crap, etc will be left coating the inside of the bowl and the carburetor and if when you pour fresh gas in it it will be enough to dissolve everything without a jet getting clogged up.
There is also the problem I have found that if someone runs the dry every season versus storing them wet with stabilized fuel and a full tank, they will end up with leaky fuel lines, and especially a needle and seat valve that does not seal off and the carb starts leaking several years earlier.
The best thing I have found is also not to bother with ethanol free fuel because if you simply use stabilizer (I exclusively use regular Sta-Bil and I use it at a ratio of 1 oz to every gallon)
You shouldn't have any noticeable problems..
I never do.
I have a 3 generators that I tried to start every year and the last time I tried them, one started on the second pull and one started on the 6th pull.
The other one is at a friend's place.
Storing them wet with fresh stabilized fuel and a full tank of gas will make the rubber and the needle and seat last longer.
Sure, ethanol-free fuel is better if you have easy access to it and it's not that much more expensive but I really don't find it necessary.
I just started two hedge trimmers 2 days ago that may have been used last year or it may have been 2 years..
Regardless, they were just sitting there on the garage floor in the corner with whatever gas that was in them when I got done using them last.
Luckily, none of the fuel lines were cracked and neither of the primer bulbs broke when I prime them and they both started right up after 8 or 10 pulls and I use them both and they ran well.
Of course I top them off with fresh stabilized fuel first.
One big problem is people don't realize it has to be fresh stabilized fuel.
DO NOT just grab your gas can and pour some stabilizer in it or cheat and pour some stabilizer into the gas tank on your machine and think that's the same as going to the station and adding your stabilizer to an empty gas can and then getting fresh fuel. It is not the same.
T
TobyU
I don't actually recommend or believe in the running them dry theory.Of course, there's no substitute for running 'em dry before you put 'em up for the season. But I have never been able to fathom a non-political reason to put corn likker in our gasoline. It takes a LOT more (mostly fossil-fueled) energy to make a gallon of the stuff than we can ever get out of it.
I tell people all the time especially if they ask about it but that was an old school method that some people still swear by but yet I get a decent percentage of customers bringing me mowers that say they did that but....yet here they are with a mower that won't start and run.
The expression running them dry still doesn't get them completely dry.
It's better than doing nothing but you still have about half of the float bowl in a float bowl type system with fuel in there that is certainly going to evaporate and just a few days to a week or so.
It's what is Left behind after this evaporation that can still cause problems.
You just don't know how much white powdery crap, green crap, etc will be left coating the inside of the bowl and the carburetor and if when you pour fresh gas in it it will be enough to dissolve everything without a jet getting clogged up.
There is also the problem I have found that if someone runs the dry every season versus storing them wet with stabilized fuel and a full tank, they will end up with leaky fuel lines, and especially a needle and seat valve that does not seal off and the carb starts leaking several years earlier.
The best thing I have found is also not to bother with ethanol free fuel because if you simply use stabilizer (I exclusively use regular Sta-Bil and I use it at a ratio of 1 oz to every gallon)
You shouldn't have any noticeable problems..
I never do.
I have a 3 generators that I tried to start every year and the last time I tried them, one started on the second pull and one started on the 6th pull.
The other one is at a friend's place.
Storing them wet with fresh stabilized fuel and a full tank of gas will make the rubber and the needle and seat last longer.
Sure, ethanol-free fuel is better if you have easy access to it and it's not that much more expensive but I really don't find it necessary.
I just started two hedge trimmers 2 days ago that may have been used last year or it may have been 2 years..
Regardless, they were just sitting there on the garage floor in the corner with whatever gas that was in them when I got done using them last.
Luckily, none of the fuel lines were cracked and neither of the primer bulbs broke when I prime them and they both started right up after 8 or 10 pulls and I use them both and they ran well.
Of course I top them off with fresh stabilized fuel first.
One big problem is people don't realize it has to be fresh stabilized fuel.
DO NOT just grab your gas can and pour some stabilizer in it or cheat and pour some stabilizer into the gas tank on your machine and think that's the same as going to the station and adding your stabilizer to an empty gas can and then getting fresh fuel. It is not the same.
#129
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Ethanol sucks but...... the white stuff is not lime from water absorbed from the air. There are no minerals in it. Water that evaporates from the ocean into the air does not contain any salt or minerals. Ground Water that enters the atmosphere from evapotranspiration also does not contain minerals. Ground water contains minerals not water absorbed from the atmosphere.If the engine is run on a daily or weekly basis, there aren't usually problems.
But then there are things like snowmobiles, snowblowers, rototillers, chainsaws, etc. that are often used once or twice a year, or sometimes not for two or three years.
There is no escaping the fact that ethanol is hydrophilic, meaning that it blends easily with water and actually pulls water from the air. The unspeakable crud and corrosion you find in carbs on equipment that isn't used regularly is the result of water contamination and the acidic combination of water and ethanol. I can't count the times I have found actual lime deposits in carburetors. Lime deposits don't come from gasoline. They don't come from ethanol. They come from WATER.
#130
C
Curtisun
C
Curtisun
It has been my experience that ethanol does give you less time before the fuel goes bad and you have carb trouble. But even non ethanol fuel can do the same thing and give you problems if it sets up long enough.
I have come to the conclusion it is not fully the ethanol that is the problem but the actual fuel that is now being refined from shale. Before they started using shale the fuel did not hardly give any problems unless something set for years. I also found if the small engine is ran every month or so it has fewer problems.
I have come to the conclusion it is not fully the ethanol that is the problem but the actual fuel that is now being refined from shale. Before they started using shale the fuel did not hardly give any problems unless something set for years. I also found if the small engine is ran every month or so it has fewer problems.
#131
T
Tbone0106
T
Tbone0106
We can argue about what the crap in the carb is, but the essential point is that it doesn't belong there. Ethanol doesn't belong there. Water doesn't belong there. Fuel grade ethanol also contains methanol, which doesn't belong there. (Methanol -- the stuff in Sterno -- is shipped in and blended into the mix purposely to discourage ethanol plant workers from taking home water bottles and thermos jugs full of the moonshine they've been cooking up all day. I am not making this up.)Ethanol sucks but...... the white stuff is not lime from water absorbed from the air. There are no minerals in it. Water that evaporates from the ocean into the air does not contain any salt or minerals. Ground Water that enters the atmosphere from evapotranspiration also does not contain minerals. Ground water contains minerals not water absorbed from the atmosphere.
#132
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
The local Cargill plant has 2 main products. High fructose corn syrup and pure ethyl alcohol. Used to go in there to do service. Biggest fear wasn't employees stealing the booze but rather an alcohol fire. Hard to put out and you can't see the flames in sunlight. They took no smoking very serious.
Don't know why ya'll hate on ethanol. Makes me money
Don't know why ya'll hate on ethanol. Makes me money
#133
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
I made a ton of money off it for years. Just recently quit the biz - I was doing everything from weedwhackers to pickup trucks. Automotive crap burned me out quick.
But anyway, it's the principle of the government doing this to their own people. Making their lives miserable & costing them money that shouldn't need to be spent. Seems that's their modus operandi these days. It's only gonna get worse, as it has been every single day ...
But anyway, it's the principle of the government doing this to their own people. Making their lives miserable & costing them money that shouldn't need to be spent. Seems that's their modus operandi these days. It's only gonna get worse, as it has been every single day ...
#134
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
What you get inside the float bowl is concentrated tars that are not removed during refining, concentrated dye ( so we can tell the different grades ) and any other concentrated non volatile agents added to the fuel ( which is not petrol ) and that happens regardless of weather it is leaded or unleaded , ethanol or ethanol free .
Then if the carb bowl was run dry you can still get condensation from the air if the temperatures are low enough & the dir is humid enough ( note , lots of if's )
Now any two metals that are in contact with each other and also wet will allow a galvanic cell to be formed so you will get corrosion in a metal carb bowl where there is steel, zinc & brass
Finally the air we breathe s chockes with viruses , bacteria , pollen & spores of fungi & moulds .
If our eyes were able to see all of them we would not be able to see any of our hand if the outstretched palm placed against our nose , which by the way is why all of those wipes & sprays are mostly just a waste of money .
Now fuel is ORGANIC, it contains the same stuff you are made out of , carbon atoms bonded to mostly hydrogens ( and a host of other elements ) .
To some of the fungal spores & bacteria the fuel or the fuel saturated water or the ethanol phase is FOOD .
So they will grow and multiplay till they consume every drop
Then other fungii , moulds & bacteria will see the previously mentioned fungii, bacteria & moulds as their food, or their waste as food , that is how nature works so they will start to grow & reproduce .
What we see is jelly in a variety of colours
Then if the carb bowl was run dry you can still get condensation from the air if the temperatures are low enough & the dir is humid enough ( note , lots of if's )
Now any two metals that are in contact with each other and also wet will allow a galvanic cell to be formed so you will get corrosion in a metal carb bowl where there is steel, zinc & brass
Finally the air we breathe s chockes with viruses , bacteria , pollen & spores of fungi & moulds .
If our eyes were able to see all of them we would not be able to see any of our hand if the outstretched palm placed against our nose , which by the way is why all of those wipes & sprays are mostly just a waste of money .
Now fuel is ORGANIC, it contains the same stuff you are made out of , carbon atoms bonded to mostly hydrogens ( and a host of other elements ) .
To some of the fungal spores & bacteria the fuel or the fuel saturated water or the ethanol phase is FOOD .
So they will grow and multiplay till they consume every drop
Then other fungii , moulds & bacteria will see the previously mentioned fungii, bacteria & moulds as their food, or their waste as food , that is how nature works so they will start to grow & reproduce .
What we see is jelly in a variety of colours
#135
T
Tbone0106
I know. It makes you money, and it makes me money too. I've already done the exact same carburetor service on the exact same weed-whackers and snowblowers and chainsaws year after year after year. I think I can rehab a Walbro carb in about five minutes while I'm asleep.
But back when it was straight gasoline, people didn't have these problems unless things sat for years on end.
T
Tbone0106
It's just hard not to see it as some sort of weird - and VERY costly - make-work project imposed by a completely inept government. If the earliest election primaries hadn't historically taken place in Iowa, I seriously wonder if corn-based ethanol (an astoundingly stupid and expensive additive) would be in our gasoline. The entire bulk corn ethanol industry was directly created by our national government, through mandates, tariffs, and direct tax subsidies. The subsidies have warped the market to the point where they could be phased out, but the tariffs and the mandates remain.The local Cargill plant has 2 main products. High fructose corn syrup and pure ethyl alcohol. Used to go in there to do service. Biggest fear wasn't employees stealing the booze but rather an alcohol fire. Hard to put out and you can't see the flames in sunlight. They took no smoking very serious.
Don't know why ya'll hate on ethanol. Makes me money
I know. It makes you money, and it makes me money too. I've already done the exact same carburetor service on the exact same weed-whackers and snowblowers and chainsaws year after year after year. I think I can rehab a Walbro carb in about five minutes while I'm asleep.
But back when it was straight gasoline, people didn't have these problems unless things sat for years on end.
#136
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
We got the same BS down here
Funny enough the brother of the Prime Minister was the manager & a major shareholder in the only plant that produces ethanol from sugar cane and the cane fields are all marginal electorates
Then it gets called "Environmentally friendly & lower emissions" but when you add all of the emissions from making the stuff & distributing the stuff then add the extra exhausts generated because you use more E10 than strait fuel then it is apparent to any one with a kindergarden understanding of arithmatic that is is a scam that makes things worse .
Funny enough the brother of the Prime Minister was the manager & a major shareholder in the only plant that produces ethanol from sugar cane and the cane fields are all marginal electorates
Then it gets called "Environmentally friendly & lower emissions" but when you add all of the emissions from making the stuff & distributing the stuff then add the extra exhausts generated because you use more E10 than strait fuel then it is apparent to any one with a kindergarden understanding of arithmatic that is is a scam that makes things worse .
#137
Smithsonite
Smithsonite
Government at work!
#138
T
Tbone0106
T
Tbone0106
The tariffs the US has placed on ethanol were designed specifically to keep ethanol made from sugarcane (or switchgrass, etc.) out of the country, and to make sure corn was the only feedstock available. Tariffs are just one of the fun ways government makes everything more expensive for everybody.We got the same BS down here
Funny enough the brother of the Prime Minister was the manager & a major shareholder in the only plant that produces ethanol from sugar cane and the cane fields are all marginal electorates
Then it gets called "Environmentally friendly & lower emissions" but when you add all of the emissions from making the stuff & distributing the stuff then add the extra exhausts generated because you use more E10 than strait fuel then it is apparent to any one with a kindergarden understanding of arithmatic that is is a scam that makes things worse .
#139
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Yes tariffs to protect the local industry from competition in the land of the FREE MARKET
I mean you would not want any of your money going to Brazil or Haitti would you.
I mean you would not want any of your money going to Brazil or Haitti would you.
#140
T
Tbone0106
T
Tbone0106
For perspective, I read not long ago that if all the corn grown in the US that ends up in our fuel tanks was planted in a single unbroken cornfield, the field would be larger than the entire state of Connecticut. More than 40% of all the field corn grown in the US is converted into ethanol. A single company, POET, consumes 7% of the US corn crop for ethanol. There are seven industrial-scale ethanol plants in my home state of Ohio, and roughly 190 nationwide. Almost all of them use field corn exclusively as a feedstock. Only two are capable of using sugar cane waste.
#141
Hammermechanicman
Hammermechanicman
Back when the government mandated ethanol gas huge amounts of corn exports was diverted from Mexico to ethanol production. Caused a massive food shortage for a couple years.
#142
T
Tbone0106
It has only been the new employment or re-employment of marginal, once-fallow land for corn production that has allowed the commodity prices to stabilize.
There's really no need to wonder where you can find a really, truly bad idea when you need one.
T
Tbone0106
I remember that. The commodity price of corn futures nearly tripled too, causing farmers to shift cropland into corn and away from things like soybeans and wheat, and that shift drove up the prices of those crops at the same time. So the folks in Mexico are hungry, and everybody in the US gets the pleasure of higher prices on just about everything they eat. Oh yeah, we also take a hit on our fuel mileage.Back when the government mandated ethanol gas huge amounts of corn exports was diverted from Mexico to ethanol production. Caused a massive food shortage for a couple years.
It has only been the new employment or re-employment of marginal, once-fallow land for corn production that has allowed the commodity prices to stabilize.
There's really no need to wonder where you can find a really, truly bad idea when you need one.
#143
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Corn is a product that organic engineers absolutely love as it is a wonderful concentrated package of carbs & protein that can be economically converted into almost organic molecule that they want to from ethanol to synthetic meat to plastic .
As we start to appreciate the real cost of throw away oil derrived plastics we will be using more & more corn based plastics that are marginally more bio-degradable but less UV stable
There was a speaker some time ago I hear who claimed 40% of everything that went into the mouths of US citizens was actually corn and soy accounted for another 20%
I did ask if that was a dry weight because water by volume used to be about 50% of all food but I never got an answer
As we start to appreciate the real cost of throw away oil derrived plastics we will be using more & more corn based plastics that are marginally more bio-degradable but less UV stable
There was a speaker some time ago I hear who claimed 40% of everything that went into the mouths of US citizens was actually corn and soy accounted for another 20%
I did ask if that was a dry weight because water by volume used to be about 50% of all food but I never got an answer
#144
sgkent
sgkent
during studying my family history back to the 1500's I found that nothing has changed in how markets worked between then and now. The people investing don't care who loses in the process. They look for new ways to sell their products, cheaper ways to produce them, people with money in their pockets or assets to borrow on to buy the products, politicians who will pass laws to help them with their game plan, other people whose money and lands they can use, and militaries who will enforce their interests. That was the game plan then and it is the game plan now. Ethanol is no different. The whole climate change thing causing this is a scam because nothing can be done to stop it until the third world stops having babies in masse, and exporting them to the west. When my late father was born there were less than 2 billion people in the world, When I was born it had grown to 2.5 billion people. Today it is 8 billion. That is a 4x increase in just one generation. Basically it was stable between 1.6 billion and 1.8 billion people during the time of my grandfather (bn 1891) and father (bn 1920) then rose a small amount by the time we were born, then we started feeding the world, and poof climate change took off. Their solution - force us to make allowances for the failures of others.
#145
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Well we can do a lot to lessen our foot print on the planet and save the finite resources
World population growth rate is actually slowing and if you remember , China has a 1 chid policy that every "developed " country decried as being "unhuman" .
Korea has a negative population growth , Japan is just about neutral and will be negative by the end of the decade
The US population growth is declining as is the life expectancy ( only western country where that is happening )
However do you know that he US government has withdrawn development aid to every third world country that has as active contraception policy ( obviously you lot still need slaves ) .
I never use the term global warming because the USA has turned it into an ideological debate so people minds instantly close but when you say atmospheric pollution then most agree that it needs to be reduced
And the other thing to remember that Africa for instance contributes around 1% of the total atmospheric pollution while having 11% of the worlds population
So 1 american is responsible for he same atmospheric pollution as 18,000 Africans ( Ozzies are worse as 1 Ozzie = 42,000 Africans )
And yes laws are made to protect the assets of the wealthy and prevent those without assets getting any .
World population growth rate is actually slowing and if you remember , China has a 1 chid policy that every "developed " country decried as being "unhuman" .
Korea has a negative population growth , Japan is just about neutral and will be negative by the end of the decade
The US population growth is declining as is the life expectancy ( only western country where that is happening )
However do you know that he US government has withdrawn development aid to every third world country that has as active contraception policy ( obviously you lot still need slaves ) .
I never use the term global warming because the USA has turned it into an ideological debate so people minds instantly close but when you say atmospheric pollution then most agree that it needs to be reduced
And the other thing to remember that Africa for instance contributes around 1% of the total atmospheric pollution while having 11% of the worlds population
So 1 american is responsible for he same atmospheric pollution as 18,000 Africans ( Ozzies are worse as 1 Ozzie = 42,000 Africans )
And yes laws are made to protect the assets of the wealthy and prevent those without assets getting any .
#146
T
Tbone0106
China, despite its unenforceable one-child policy, has positive population growth. So does South Korea; nobody knows about North Korea, because they don't share that sort of information. Japan slipped into population decline years ago.
US population growth would be negative except for immigration - mostly illegal. This (along with Covid) is also driving the decline in life expectancy.
T
Tbone0106
Not sure where you're getting your numbers.....Well we can do a lot to lessen our foot print on the planet and save the finite resources
World population growth rate is actually slowing and if you remember , China has a 1 chid policy that every "developed " country decried as being "unhuman" .
Korea has a negative population growth , Japan is just about neutral and will be negative by the end of the decade
The US population growth is declining as is the life expectancy ( only western country where that is happening )
However do you know that he US government has withdrawn development aid to every third world country that has as active contraception policy ( obviously you lot still need slaves ) .
I never use the term global warming because the USA has turned it into an ideological debate so people minds instantly close but when you say atmospheric pollution then most agree that it needs to be reduced
And the other thing to remember that Africa for instance contributes around 1% of the total atmospheric pollution while having 11% of the worlds population
So 1 american is responsible for he same atmospheric pollution as 18,000 Africans ( Ozzies are worse as 1 Ozzie = 42,000 Africans )
And yes laws are made to protect the assets of the wealthy and prevent those without assets getting any .
China, despite its unenforceable one-child policy, has positive population growth. So does South Korea; nobody knows about North Korea, because they don't share that sort of information. Japan slipped into population decline years ago.
US population growth would be negative except for immigration - mostly illegal. This (along with Covid) is also driving the decline in life expectancy.
#147
sgkent
sgkent
these stats are my understanding too. I read that China went so far backwards under the one child rule that they removed it several years ago. Looking at pictures of their army, and their numbers, they don't seem to have any issues fulfilling recruiting needs under what was the 1 child rule. It ended at the end of 2015.Not sure where you're getting your numbers.....
China, despite its unenforceable one-child policy, has positive population growth. So does South Korea; nobody knows about North Korea, because they don't share that sort of information. Japan slipped into population decline years ago.
US population growth would be negative except for immigration - mostly illegal. This (along with Covid) is also driving the decline in life expectancy.
#148
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
I get numbers from SCIENTIFIC organizations or people like the various UN organizations not shock jocks on Face Book with a strong political agenda .
The birth rate ( not the actual population right now ) is what is important and it is 2 ( static ) or less than 2 ( declining ) for a lot of countries
China right now is 1.3 , Korea is 0.8 Japan is 1.5 as is Canada the US is 1.6
So while the actual population is increasing in a lot of these countries, the rate of increase is slowing down and eventually the death rate will outnumber the birth rate and the population will start going backwards as is happening is Japan & Korea right now. In Japan it is quite marked as their population is substantially older than Korea
China's population will take a lot longer to decline because their population is quite young and the death rate is dropping .
China had to go down the One Child path because the movement of people from villages where they would be looked after by the village till they died to the new cities where they will be looked after by the state would have cost the country more than it was making .
If those who moved to the cities to work in factories had to provide for their retirement then the wages would have needed to be a lot higher so the exchange rate would need to be almost zero to give China the international competative rate on manufacturing to encourage greedy Western countries to shift their manufacturing to China to the detriment of their own population as the USA, Germany, Australia have all done where out economies are dominated by multi nationals who have no patriotic ethics, just the thirst for finding the biggest profit margin for the least capital outlay .
Note these numbers exclude migration.
Without the economic activity generated by migrants then Australia would have been in a recession for the past 10 years .
And I would imagine the USA would be even worse as your debt to GDP ratio is off the charts
There is a joke in academic circles about US "research"
European research is driven by universities that are mostly state funded so they get figures then postulate theories to account for the numbers
US universities postulate theories for the benefit of their sponsors then find numbers to prove it ( smoking & cancer is the perfect example of this )
The birth rate ( not the actual population right now ) is what is important and it is 2 ( static ) or less than 2 ( declining ) for a lot of countries
China right now is 1.3 , Korea is 0.8 Japan is 1.5 as is Canada the US is 1.6
So while the actual population is increasing in a lot of these countries, the rate of increase is slowing down and eventually the death rate will outnumber the birth rate and the population will start going backwards as is happening is Japan & Korea right now. In Japan it is quite marked as their population is substantially older than Korea
China's population will take a lot longer to decline because their population is quite young and the death rate is dropping .
China had to go down the One Child path because the movement of people from villages where they would be looked after by the village till they died to the new cities where they will be looked after by the state would have cost the country more than it was making .
If those who moved to the cities to work in factories had to provide for their retirement then the wages would have needed to be a lot higher so the exchange rate would need to be almost zero to give China the international competative rate on manufacturing to encourage greedy Western countries to shift their manufacturing to China to the detriment of their own population as the USA, Germany, Australia have all done where out economies are dominated by multi nationals who have no patriotic ethics, just the thirst for finding the biggest profit margin for the least capital outlay .
Note these numbers exclude migration.
Without the economic activity generated by migrants then Australia would have been in a recession for the past 10 years .
And I would imagine the USA would be even worse as your debt to GDP ratio is off the charts
There is a joke in academic circles about US "research"
European research is driven by universities that are mostly state funded so they get figures then postulate theories to account for the numbers
US universities postulate theories for the benefit of their sponsors then find numbers to prove it ( smoking & cancer is the perfect example of this )
#149
G
GrumpyCat
Your 30 year old saw is likely to have vinyl and gasket materials which do not tolerate ethanol. Sometimes E0 is $1.00/gallon more than E10 but how many gallons do you use? Delightfully Buc-ee's is only 15 miles away and has 87AKI E0 for only $0.30/gallon more than E10.
The big problem with ethanol is that water dissolves in to solution then is carried in to the engine where both water and ethanol get to work on your carburetor guts. Water rolls off pure gasoline, you can decant the water out of the tank. There is no additive which can neutralize ethanol, most I have seen are more of exactly the same sort of thing as ethanol. They deal with the water problem by increasing the amount of water the fuel can carry... which is the problem in the first place.
G
GrumpyCat
Many premix oils had trouble with ethanol in the early days. Didn't like staying mixed, had to shake it up. Guessing modern premix has learned how not to separate in the presence of ethanol.I have a 30 year old two stroke chain saw that I never drain the fuel in. It may go unused for several years. Never had a fuel issue and always starts right up. Does the oil in the fuel help alleviate the ethanol issues? I don’t have easy access to ethanol free fuel but have been lucky I guess.
Your 30 year old saw is likely to have vinyl and gasket materials which do not tolerate ethanol. Sometimes E0 is $1.00/gallon more than E10 but how many gallons do you use? Delightfully Buc-ee's is only 15 miles away and has 87AKI E0 for only $0.30/gallon more than E10.
The big problem with ethanol is that water dissolves in to solution then is carried in to the engine where both water and ethanol get to work on your carburetor guts. Water rolls off pure gasoline, you can decant the water out of the tank. There is no additive which can neutralize ethanol, most I have seen are more of exactly the same sort of thing as ethanol. They deal with the water problem by increasing the amount of water the fuel can carry... which is the problem in the first place.
#150
T
Tbone0106
In your earlier post, you didn't even mention birth rates. You referred to "population growth," "population growth rate," and "negative population growth." Yet, as all the examples you cite show, a birth rate lower than 2.0 does not necessarily equate to "negative population growth." In the case of the US, thanks mostly to insane immigration policies adopted over the last 35 years, the rate of population growth has actually accelerated, despite a declining birth rate.
T
Tbone0106
Oh boy! If you think the UN doesn't have a 'strong political agenda,' I have a nice shiny bridge I'd like to sell you, along with some oceanfront property in Oklahoma. I got my numbers from WorldData.info and several other sources. I'm not a big fan of Fakebook.I get numbers from SCIENTIFIC organizations or people like the various UN organizations not shock jocks on Face Book with a strong political agenda .
The birth rate ( not the actual population right now ) is what is important and it is 2 ( static ) or less than 2 ( declining ) for a lot of countries
China right now is 1.3 , Korea is 0.8 Japan is 1.5 as is Canada the US is 1.6
So while the actual population is increasing in a lot of these countries, the rate of increase is slowing down and eventually the death rate will outnumber the birth rate and the population will start going backwards as is happening is Japan & Korea right now. In Japan it is quite marked as their population is substantially older than Korea
China's population will take a lot longer to decline because their population is quite young and the death rate is dropping .
China had to go down the One Child path because the movement of people from villages where they would be looked after by the village till they died to the new cities where they will be looked after by the state would have cost the country more than it was making .
If those who moved to the cities to work in factories had to provide for their retirement then the wages would have needed to be a lot higher so the exchange rate would need to be almost zero to give China the international competative rate on manufacturing to encourage greedy Western countries to shift their manufacturing to China to the detriment of their own population as the USA, Germany, Australia have all done where out economies are dominated by multi nationals who have no patriotic ethics, just the thirst for finding the biggest profit margin for the least capital outlay .
Note these numbers exclude migration.
Without the economic activity generated by migrants then Australia would have been in a recession for the past 10 years .
And I would imagine the USA would be even worse as your debt to GDP ratio is off the charts
There is a joke in academic circles about US "research"
European research is driven by universities that are mostly state funded so they get figures then postulate theories to account for the numbers
US universities postulate theories for the benefit of their sponsors then find numbers to prove it ( smoking & cancer is the perfect example of this )
In your earlier post, you didn't even mention birth rates. You referred to "population growth," "population growth rate," and "negative population growth." Yet, as all the examples you cite show, a birth rate lower than 2.0 does not necessarily equate to "negative population growth." In the case of the US, thanks mostly to insane immigration policies adopted over the last 35 years, the rate of population growth has actually accelerated, despite a declining birth rate.
#151
T
Tbone0106
Ray Charles could see the line between the two fluids, with the pure gasoline floating on top and the deadly ethanol/water mix lurking at the bottom -- as in the bottom of your fuel tank, where the fuel pickup tube is, or the bottom of your carburetor bowl, which feeds your venturis.
Ethanol and water truly love one another.
T
Tbone0106
I know a guy whose job it is to go around the county and test pump gas (E10) for ethanol content. (The legal maximum is 10%, but it may contain less than that.) How does he do it? Simple! He adds a measured volume of water to a measured volume of E10, shakes it up for a minute or two, and places it on a shelf. The next day, all the water and ethanol will have found one another and settled to the bottom of the flask.Many premix oils had trouble with ethanol in the early days. Didn't like staying mixed, had to shake it up. Guessing modern premix has learned how not to separate in the presence of ethanol.
Your 30 year old saw is likely to have vinyl and gasket materials which do not tolerate ethanol. Sometimes E0 is $1.00/gallon more than E10 but how many gallons do you use? Delightfully Buc-ee's is only 15 miles away and has 87AKI E0 for only $0.30/gallon more than E10.
The big problem with ethanol is that water dissolves in to solution then is carried in to the engine where both water and ethanol get to work on your carburetor guts. Water rolls off pure gasoline, you can decant the water out of the tank. There is no additive which can neutralize ethanol, most I have seen are more of exactly the same sort of thing as ethanol. They deal with the water problem by increasing the amount of water the fuel can carry... which is the problem in the first place.
Ray Charles could see the line between the two fluids, with the pure gasoline floating on top and the deadly ethanol/water mix lurking at the bottom -- as in the bottom of your fuel tank, where the fuel pickup tube is, or the bottom of your carburetor bowl, which feeds your venturis.
Ethanol and water truly love one another.
#152
B
bertsmobile1
We used a paste that changed colour when it came into contact with water to test for water in fuel tanks and this included the tanks at the petrol station .
Now the petrol station I worked at would drop a suction line into the tank to remove the water at the bottom then add some ethanol to clean up the rest
This had to be done a couple of times a year when ever the water level got near the pick up level in the tank .
B
bertsmobile1
The standard fix for accumulated water in a fuel tank was to add ethanol to it , or methanol for that matter which was cheaper but not as effectiveI know a guy whose job it is to go around the county and test pump gas (E10) for ethanol content. (The legal maximum is 10%, but it may contain less than that.) How does he do it? Simple! He adds a measured volume of water to a measured volume of E10, shakes it up for a minute or two, and places it on a shelf. The next day, all the water and ethanol will have found one another and settled to the bottom of the flask.
Ray Charles could see the line between the two fluids, with the pure gasoline floating on top and the deadly ethanol/water mix lurking at the bottom -- as in the bottom of your fuel tank, where the fuel pickup tube is, or the bottom of your carburetor bowl, which feeds your venturis.
Ethanol and water truly love one another.
We used a paste that changed colour when it came into contact with water to test for water in fuel tanks and this included the tanks at the petrol station .
Now the petrol station I worked at would drop a suction line into the tank to remove the water at the bottom then add some ethanol to clean up the rest
This had to be done a couple of times a year when ever the water level got near the pick up level in the tank .
#153
B
bertsmobile1
B
bertsmobile1
Please do not put words in my mouth then argue against them
what I said was " World population growth rate is actually slowing "
And this is a recorded fact the RATE of increase is declining
It is increasing in some 3rd world countries but that is set against the decline in 1st world countries ( assuming that all of Europe is 1st world )
Migration does not alter the population rate it just redistributes those people
And from the time of your grandfather there have been 1 ( or 2 ) world wars plus a few very high casulty wars and a couple of revolutions
All of these had a massive effect on population
China alone had a recorded 20,000,000 deaths under Japanese occupation and another 5,000,000 during the Long March .
No one knows how may Soviet citizens Starlin slaughtered but it is popularly assumed to at least double what Hitler was responsible for
Up until the UN was up and running and had population research happening no one knew how many people were in most of Asia or Africa as they did not have reliable census's if at all .
Heck Australia's population had a massive jump in 1967 because in 1966 we added aboriginies to the census for the first time .
So a lot of those numbers are just the population in first world countries some times with & other times without estimates for the countries who did not count their population.
And even if the estimates were included these varied radically depending upon the political agenda of the authority doing the estimates .
The Germany was in control of the DRC their estimates of the native population was apparently around 10% of the actual numbers so they could justify the lack of spending upon social services while they raped & pillaged the natural resources
Same story with the Dutch & French in SE Asia ( and probably all the other colonizers )
The British did not count the Tamils they brought into Ceylon to work as virtual slaves on the coffee plantations because they were supposedly temporary ,
When the British pulled out the native Ceylonese did not count the Tamils either because they were forigners and I would imagine that most of the Carribean was similar
And you could take the population of India under British rule with a large lump of salt as well .
I do not disagree with your premise that people are populating themselves out of existance
However around half of the population on the planet are self supporting and live in harmony with the environment so are responsible for next to no pollution.
It is the wealthy , lazy & greedy Western 1st world countries who are destroying the planet and our numbers are either on a decline or a path to decline.
However it is very fashionable for racists to point the finger of blame at all of them black, brown or yellow people who are breeding like rabbits and not the nice white christian people who are squandering the planets resources at an exponentially increasing rate .
Dads first ( and only ) petrol powered 1966 lawn mower is still working fine and in use by my sister
I have a yard full of almost new mowers waiting for me to break them down for scrap metal because they can not be repaired
Last year I sent 4 skip bins full of scrap off to Simsmetal just about all of them were less than 10 years old and a goodly proportion were under 5 .
I have a 20' container load of string trimmers about to go off to Timor for refurbishment or break down for scrap
I am still using my Stihl gear I bought in 1984 , most of the stuff in the container is Ryobi, Homelight & store brands . All of it is under 10 years old
what I said was " World population growth rate is actually slowing "
And this is a recorded fact the RATE of increase is declining
It is increasing in some 3rd world countries but that is set against the decline in 1st world countries ( assuming that all of Europe is 1st world )
Migration does not alter the population rate it just redistributes those people
And from the time of your grandfather there have been 1 ( or 2 ) world wars plus a few very high casulty wars and a couple of revolutions
All of these had a massive effect on population
China alone had a recorded 20,000,000 deaths under Japanese occupation and another 5,000,000 during the Long March .
No one knows how may Soviet citizens Starlin slaughtered but it is popularly assumed to at least double what Hitler was responsible for
Up until the UN was up and running and had population research happening no one knew how many people were in most of Asia or Africa as they did not have reliable census's if at all .
Heck Australia's population had a massive jump in 1967 because in 1966 we added aboriginies to the census for the first time .
So a lot of those numbers are just the population in first world countries some times with & other times without estimates for the countries who did not count their population.
And even if the estimates were included these varied radically depending upon the political agenda of the authority doing the estimates .
The Germany was in control of the DRC their estimates of the native population was apparently around 10% of the actual numbers so they could justify the lack of spending upon social services while they raped & pillaged the natural resources
Same story with the Dutch & French in SE Asia ( and probably all the other colonizers )
The British did not count the Tamils they brought into Ceylon to work as virtual slaves on the coffee plantations because they were supposedly temporary ,
When the British pulled out the native Ceylonese did not count the Tamils either because they were forigners and I would imagine that most of the Carribean was similar
And you could take the population of India under British rule with a large lump of salt as well .
I do not disagree with your premise that people are populating themselves out of existance
However around half of the population on the planet are self supporting and live in harmony with the environment so are responsible for next to no pollution.
It is the wealthy , lazy & greedy Western 1st world countries who are destroying the planet and our numbers are either on a decline or a path to decline.
However it is very fashionable for racists to point the finger of blame at all of them black, brown or yellow people who are breeding like rabbits and not the nice white christian people who are squandering the planets resources at an exponentially increasing rate .
Dads first ( and only ) petrol powered 1966 lawn mower is still working fine and in use by my sister
I have a yard full of almost new mowers waiting for me to break them down for scrap metal because they can not be repaired
Last year I sent 4 skip bins full of scrap off to Simsmetal just about all of them were less than 10 years old and a goodly proportion were under 5 .
I have a 20' container load of string trimmers about to go off to Timor for refurbishment or break down for scrap
I am still using my Stihl gear I bought in 1984 , most of the stuff in the container is Ryobi, Homelight & store brands . All of it is under 10 years old
#154
T
Tbone0106
My point was that you posted extensively (and factually incorrectly) about population growth in various places. And when I called you out on it, you tried to change the subject to birth rates, which is tenuously related to population growth, but not even close to the same thing. It may be true that the RATE of world population growth is declining - slowly - but you cited specific (and incorrect) examples of "negative population growth" in places like "Korea" (wherever that is) and even the US. You claimed that Japan's population growth was "neutral" when it actually went negative a decade ago.
I think we're finished with this conversation.
T
Tbone0106
I put no words in your mouth, bub. I quoted your post directly. Three times.Please do not put words in my mouth then argue against them
what I said was " World population growth rate is actually slowing "
And this is a recorded fact the RATE of increase is declining
It is increasing in some 3rd world countries but that is set against the decline in 1st world countries ( assuming that all of Europe is 1st world )
Migration does not alter the population rate it just redistributes those people
And from the time of your grandfather there have been 1 ( or 2 ) world wars plus a few very high casulty wars and a couple of revolutions
All of these had a massive effect on population
China alone had a recorded 20,000,000 deaths under Japanese occupation and another 5,000,000 during the Long March .
No one knows how may Soviet citizens Starlin slaughtered but it is popularly assumed to at least double what Hitler was responsible for
Up until the UN was up and running and had population research happening no one knew how many people were in most of Asia or Africa as they did not have reliable census's if at all .
Heck Australia's population had a massive jump in 1967 because in 1966 we added aboriginies to the census for the first time .
So a lot of those numbers are just the population in first world countries some times with & other times without estimates for the countries who did not count their population.
And even if the estimates were included these varied radically depending upon the political agenda of the authority doing the estimates .
The Germany was in control of the DRC their estimates of the native population was apparently around 10% of the actual numbers so they could justify the lack of spending upon social services while they raped & pillaged the natural resources
Same story with the Dutch & French in SE Asia ( and probably all the other colonizers )
The British did not count the Tamils they brought into Ceylon to work as virtual slaves on the coffee plantations because they were supposedly temporary ,
When the British pulled out the native Ceylonese did not count the Tamils either because they were forigners and I would imagine that most of the Carribean was similar
And you could take the population of India under British rule with a large lump of salt as well .
I do not disagree with your premise that people are populating themselves out of existance
However around half of the population on the planet are self supporting and live in harmony with the environment so are responsible for next to no pollution.
It is the wealthy , lazy & greedy Western 1st world countries who are destroying the planet and our numbers are either on a decline or a path to decline.
However it is very fashionable for racists to point the finger of blame at all of them black, brown or yellow people who are breeding like rabbits and not the nice white christian people who are squandering the planets resources at an exponentially increasing rate .
My point was that you posted extensively (and factually incorrectly) about population growth in various places. And when I called you out on it, you tried to change the subject to birth rates, which is tenuously related to population growth, but not even close to the same thing. It may be true that the RATE of world population growth is declining - slowly - but you cited specific (and incorrect) examples of "negative population growth" in places like "Korea" (wherever that is) and even the US. You claimed that Japan's population growth was "neutral" when it actually went negative a decade ago.
I think we're finished with this conversation.
#155
G
GrumpyCat
The test you describe is an accurate measure of ethanol content. You can buy the kits yourself on Amazon and dozens of other places.
G
GrumpyCat
I don't think it gets all the water but most. You have to oversaturate the fuel with water, up to a point the water stays suspended with ethanol in the gasoline then at some point it becomes too much.I know a guy whose job it is to go around the county and test pump gas (E10) for ethanol content. (The legal maximum is 10%, but it may contain less than that.) How does he do it? Simple! He adds a measured volume of water to a measured volume of E10, shakes it up for a minute or two, and places it on a shelf. The next day, all the water and ethanol will have found one another and settled to the bottom of the flask.
The test you describe is an accurate measure of ethanol content. You can buy the kits yourself on Amazon and dozens of other places.
#156
B
bertsmobile1
This particular graph is supposed to include estimates of illegal immigrants , visa overstayers & working visa holders
Perhaps USA maths are different to the rest of the world but a curve that has gone from 2 to.38 signifies a decline to me
Now I know this is a percentage chart so will vary according to the actual population at the time but 0.38 % of 350,000,000 is 1,330,000 which is still less than 2% of 77,000,000 which is 1,540,000
And here we have Korea where the growth rate is not only declining but has gone below zero which means that their population is actually reducing
Could not find published graph that overlaid birth rate with population growth rate so the ones that were shown a couple of months ago must have been an unpublished work or a pay to view thesis .
I do not watch TV much
I do go to a lot of public lectures if they are about science , history or law .
Very often I do not agree with what is being presented but because I have a mind I can & have changed it when presented with valid evidence
Down side is more & more seem to be BS , using cheap persuasion techniques and very selective data .
There was one just before covid hit that had charts of world migration including refugees and refugee return rates ( as distinct to deportation rates )
A police lecture that broke down crimes by race was even more interesting & showed that by and large illegal immigrants were the most law abiding citizens and it was white Australians , generally 2nd generation or older who were responsible for the bulk of violent crime , wife beating being the No 1 by a very long margin .
And yes I will own up to being wrong about Japan because I did not check before I posted
B
bertsmobile1
This particular graph is supposed to include estimates of illegal immigrants , visa overstayers & working visa holders
Perhaps USA maths are different to the rest of the world but a curve that has gone from 2 to.38 signifies a decline to me
Now I know this is a percentage chart so will vary according to the actual population at the time but 0.38 % of 350,000,000 is 1,330,000 which is still less than 2% of 77,000,000 which is 1,540,000
And here we have Korea where the growth rate is not only declining but has gone below zero which means that their population is actually reducing
Could not find published graph that overlaid birth rate with population growth rate so the ones that were shown a couple of months ago must have been an unpublished work or a pay to view thesis .
I do not watch TV much
I do go to a lot of public lectures if they are about science , history or law .
Very often I do not agree with what is being presented but because I have a mind I can & have changed it when presented with valid evidence
Down side is more & more seem to be BS , using cheap persuasion techniques and very selective data .
There was one just before covid hit that had charts of world migration including refugees and refugee return rates ( as distinct to deportation rates )
A police lecture that broke down crimes by race was even more interesting & showed that by and large illegal immigrants were the most law abiding citizens and it was white Australians , generally 2nd generation or older who were responsible for the bulk of violent crime , wife beating being the No 1 by a very long margin .
And yes I will own up to being wrong about Japan because I did not check before I posted