Ethanol Education

[Mike_Goad]

I really wish you lot would stick to facts stated honestly and stop adding things that are to say the least slightly speculative or just plain wrong.
You do your cause no good by exagerating and missleading no womder many call all of these prducts snake oil.
If you had done any organic chemistry or had much in the way of experience in any internal combustion repairs you would reaslise just how stupid what you have just written is.

Point No 1 is factually correct then you stick a lump of BS on the end of it which every one knowe is garbage.
Engines do not seize from ingesting water through te fuel system , they just stop and then require a lot of cleaning.

Point No 2 is factually correct in parts. Mineral oil is not soluable ethanol, true which is why we used caster oil in racing engines in the old days. However it is not soluable in modern fuel either and if it was soluable, it could not do the job of lubriating because it would no longer be oil it would be discreet atoms of Hydrogen, Carbon & all the other atoms contained within. Oil forms a fine suspension when mixed with fuel, synthetic oil forms a finner suspension when mixed with fuel which is why it does not smoke.
The second bit is true, come of the fuel going through the carb will have no lubrication which is quiete true, however a lot of the fuel that passes through the carb will have no oil either, that is the nature of a non uniform distribution of suspended oil molecules in fuel which is one of the reasons why two strokes blow blue smoke. Secondly there is generally a lot of condensed oil in the crankcases of two stroke engines, any one who pulls then down can attest to this, particularly with lawnmowers whenr the lower bearing will oft be fully submerged in oil ( well oil diluted by fuel to be accurate ).
So this point is pointless.

point No 3 Ethanol- water is acidic and and is a reducing acid so it will dissolve base metals like aluminium, zinc and brass, all commonly found in carburettors , This is true and alone is the strongest reason for using addatives or better still avoiding ethanol all together.
However ethanol does not eat plastic or rubber, it reacts with some of the elastomers used in some grades of rubber and makes them soft so they break up. In other elastomers, particularly the ones commonly used with neoprene ethanol will get adsorbed into the neoprene causing it to swell and block off pasageways. Eventually it will break down the neoprene and it will become a sticky goo. However it will not touch pollypropelene , polly ethylene and PVC.
The principal reason why fuel lines goes hard is the placticisers & elastomisers are leached out by the fuel itself, ethanol or not.
This process is accelerated greatly by the affect of UV rays, just tha same way as a bucket left out in the sun goes brittle.
If ethanol was making the fuel line hard, it would be harder inside the tank than outside the tank, don't need to Einstein to work out why.

Point No 4 True. Down here fuel is guaranteed for 30 days, from the day it left the refinery not the day you bought it and it starts going off from day 1.
However the rest of that parragraph is speculation pure & simple and the possability of any particular one happening has so many conditions attached to it to make it laughable you may as well told people to watch out for lumps of falling sky.

Point 5 , again true, as atomic weight percentages, ethano is 37% oxygen, towever that Oxygen atom already has a Hydrogen attached to it as it is a Hydroxyl. which is the defining point of any alcahol , the last carbon atom has a Hydrogen and an Hydroxyl on it rather than 2 hydrogens. During combustion that hydroxyl grabs another Hydrogen to become H2O commonly called water and in fact is why ethanol burns COLDER than petrol which is exactly why it was used as a racing fuel till regulations changed in the 60's.
Further more your carburettor works on volume percentages , not atomic weight percentages so it is the VOLUME the oxygen takes that is important , not the weight of the oxygen that is important.
Finally during colder months most fuel companies add substantially more oxygenators that are available from the 10% ethanol.
So it put it very bluntly to the point of being rude running lean from the oxygen in ethanol is pure BS

You know what they say about arguing with idiots....However, I do need to point out a few things.
You know I would love to say something just as "nice" about you but since I know you as much as you know me, I will not. First, I have been repairing, and teaching power equipment for 25 years. I have been to many Factory Training seminars over the years and have performed thousands of service schools. I have corroborated on and written service manuals and study guides. I hold a Masters Degree in Education. I have served on the board of directors of the Equipment and Engine Training Council and have served as President as well. So yes, I do know a thing or two about how the internal combustion works on both 2 and 4 stroke engines as well as how fuels work.
If you are the chemist you believe yourself to be, you need to stick to facts. Yes, I speculated about how many tanks of old gas it would take to ruin an engine. Other than this, I can prove everything that I said.

1. If a 2-stroke engine ingests water/ethanol while running can in fact seize up. Since you obviously do not understand that 2-stroke engines require lubrication while running and oil and ethanol/water do not mix. Therefore, there is no lubrication for the engine.

2. If the oil does not not bond with the gas, why would it not fall out (come back together either float on top or puddle on the bottom of a tank)?

3. You are right about the fuel lines not getting "eaten" by ethanol. This article was very long and I was generalizing. However, fuel lines are very much affected by ethanol. Since ethanol contains oxygen, and most units are stored in a shed or garage where it gets hot; thermal oxidation will affect the fuel lines. One of two things will happen, either embrittlement or reversion.

4. What I said is a fact. However, the amount of time it takes does vary.

5. Again, what I said is fact. I never said anything about atomic weights. Simply that ethanol is approx. 37% oxygen. The more ethanol that is in the gas, the more oxygen. Ask engine manufactures and carburetor manufactures.

By the way, your comments would not be so bad if you were polite, and if you spelled things correctly.

 

[Mike_Goad]

Nice write up. Very informative.

All tho, I have to say that Ethanol is not green. It takes a lot of land and energy to be produced. Land that we could use for food, etc.

You are absolutely correct that using corn for ethanol is not very green. The numbers vary depending on who you ask, but corn ethanol only produce about 400 gallons per year per acre. Goal is 10,000 gallons per year per acre. The closest thing that comes to this is algae. Normal product will get about 8,500 gallons per acre per year.

 

[Mike_Goad]

Sounds just like a salesman.
Ethanol also evaporates along with water molecules. Fuel also contains additives. There are way too many variables to say exactly how long fuel will last such as humidity, time fuel has spent in gas station tanks, temperatures, how mower or other OPE was stored, etc. My truck regularly has fuel in it for a month. I guess it shouldn't work.

Why aren't all reviews of your product on Amazon at 5 stars since it's so great. You may need to post this to lawnsite as well.

First off, I am not a salesman. My official title is Director of Education. As previously stated in other posts, I have been in the Lawn and Garden industry for 25 years. I have worked in the shop repairing units; I teach dealers how to repair units and I work with fuels.
You are absolutely right, there are too many variables to say when gas will go bad. But it does go bad!
Most people who leave a bad review either did not use the product correctly, had another issue not related to fuel (ignition etc), or the carburetor was too far gone.

 

[Mike_Goad]

And you know ethanol is causing this how?

You can do experiments with non-ethanol gas and ethanol gas to prove it.

 

[Mike_Goad]

I haven't yet found the perfect fuel additives, but I have found several that work fairly well.
I use Star Tron additive with every fuel container refill. I have a measuring cup that measures down to 1/3 fluid ounce.
As I store fuel and machines in a closed cargo trailer, the internal temps get high in daytime and cool at night time.
With stored fuel, both in the machines and storage jugs, the fuel will start to turn after three weeks if not used up.
I then add Sea Foam to bring the fuel back to usable.
Having had two very dry mowing seasons the last two years and as I mow on a when needed basis, there are periods of up to three weeks when the machines don't get used.
When the fuel gets passed the point, I pour it into my truck.

I will not bad mouth the brands that you use. I will However, offer you free samples for you to compare. send me a private message with your address and I will ship you some.

 

[Mike_Goad]

If the entire lower 48 states were corn fields, it would only supply about 10% of the annual demand for gasoline.

According to the website, ers.usda.gov/topics/crops/corn/trade.aspx#US the US exports around 18 million metric tons of corn each year. We produce more than enough corn for all purposes.

 

[Ric]

First off, I am not a salesman. My official title is Director of Education. As previously stated in other posts, I have been in the Lawn and Garden industry for 25 years. I have worked in the shop repairing units; I teach dealers how to repair units and I work with fuels.
You are absolutely right, there are too many variables to say when gas will go bad. But it does go bad!
Most people who leave a bad review either did not use the product correctly, had another issue not related to fuel (ignition etc), or the carburetor was too far gone.

I'd have to kinda disagree with the gas going bad thing. Gas never really goes bad, especially in 30 days. Yes some of the components will tend to evaporate when it sits for a period time and it may not have the volatility it had when it was first purchased but for the most part it will start and run an engine effectively. Especially a mower engine.

 

[silver1]

Here we go with this **** again.
Every few months someone brings this up.
As in the past I still say bull **** that ethanol is the problem.
The problem is cheap made parts and low quality workmanship. Then you have the ones that do no maintenance and blame ethanol.
Then the ones that say look what ethanol did to my carb. Ok prove it.

I was in Home Depot the other day and saw a 1 gallon can of Ethanol FREE fuel for $10.00. It was in the lawn mower section.
Very interesting.

 

[Carscw]

I was in Home Depot the other day and saw a 1 gallon can of Ethanol FREE fuel for $10.00. It was in the lawn mower section. Very interesting.

That would cost me about $100 a day.

 

[bertsmobile1]

This response will need to be split due to size restrictions.
Please also note I do not dissagree that ethanol in fuel is not a good idea, you can search my posts to verify this.
However I do object to over egging the custard, exagerating and extrapolating till the results become tandamount a plain lie.
I was trying not to be offensive but having an engineering background, not a political one, I tend to be a bit blunt.
I have used your product and it did make the engine run ( well start anyway) better. And this was stated in a previous response.

You know what they say about arguing with idiots....However, I do need to point out a few things.
You know I would love to say something just as "nice" about you but since I know you as much as you know me, I will not. First, I have been repairing, and teaching power equipment for 25 years. I have been to many Factory Training seminars over the years and have performed thousands of service schools. I have corroborated on and written service manuals and study guides. I hold a Masters Degree in Education. I have served on the board of directors of the Equipment and Engine Training Council and have served as President as well. So yes, I do know a thing or two about how the internal combustion works on both 2 and 4 stroke engines as well as how fuels work.
If you are the chemist you believe yourself to be, you need to stick to facts. Yes, I speculated about how many tanks of old gas it would take to ruin an engine. Other than this, I can prove everything that I said.

Firstly everyone on this list is just electrons in cyberspace so I for one never bother with formal qualifiction, but as you have raised the matter I hold a BSc in Metallurgy and got 2/3 way through a M Sc when I had to leave.
Postgradute diplomas in general non-destructive testing; specialist radiography ; accoustic emissions; non- medical ultrasonic determinations ; thermonic analysis and adult education or I could be a lavatory cleaner.
Sorry about the spelling, when I was at UNSW I got tested and was "typical of an engineering science student, excellent retention, excellent identification of misspelling , lousy spelling. If I was being paid while on here then I would go back & spell check but these are written when I sit at the computer to check parts diagrams or write orders while having a cuppa. And yes I write for two trade journals although not so much now days as I have been out of industry for a while.

1. If a 2-stroke engine ingests water/ethanol while running can in fact seize up. Since you obviously do not understand that 2-stroke engines require lubrication while running and oil and ethanol/water do not mix. Therefore, there is no lubrication for the engine.

I live in Australia , the country that designed the absolute best 2 stroke lawn mower engine ever to be built, the Victa Power Torque which was the dominant mower engine down here for over 30 years so I have pulled down a two stroke or two and this is excluding all the BSA Bantams I have worked on or walked people through rebuilding worldwide so I am very conversant with both the theory & practice of 2 cycle engines. I am also very conversant with the distribution system of molecules in a suspension and yes I can make an engine sieze, but not running e10 with normal amounts of 2 stroke oil regardles of weather phase seperation has occured or not as some of the fuel will have oil mixed in it . Any one who has run strait gas in their blue smoke will be able to attest to this as usually you can run near a full tank through before the engine overheats and seizure begins. Unless it is a brand new engine with no oil on the bore or condensed oil sitting in the bearings.
In fact spraying water mist into a fast reving 2 stroke is a recognised method of decoking as the water turns into super heated dry dissasociated steam inside the engine and scours the carbon build up from the piston, bore & exhaust.
And you can do this till the water content is so high it will extinguish the flame propergation
Water injection cools the engine and has been used in particular by navies to get bombers off the decks of aircraft carriers and in large deisel engines to reduce fuel consumption.
Vehicle makers toyed with this post WWII for a long time to try and get it to work reliably in domestic vehicles.
However if you mixed mineral oil with strait ethanol, or a water saturated ethanol the engine will seize, if you can get it to start at all which is why we ran caster oil in our methanol buring race bikes back in the day.
However if you end up sucking the phase seperated saturated ethanol that has dropped to the bottom of the fuel tank most engine will simply stop