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Can't get wheels off.

#1

skillet

skillet

I have an Allis Chalmers 611 Hydro and can't get the wheels off. The tires are straight flat and I can't change them out. The rims are mounted so oddly and look as if they are welded on the axle. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.


#2

T

T J Blazek

Might have a solution for you. Have a neighbor down the road that has a Ford 8N and he had the same problem. The tires were dry rotted. I went down to help him; a 6 pack and 3hrs. later; the only thing we did was get it out of the barn. Several days later he called me again and told me to COME DOWN NOW!! (No Emergency). When I got there there was a tire truck in his driveway. The tire man had jacked the whole back end of that tractor up about 2" and was changing those tires. If I hadn't have seen it I wouldn't have believed it! That tractor sat there; and he broke down; beat off both tires; installed 2 new tubes and tires in a little over an hour. We sat in lawn chairs and watched him. They charged him $25 extra per tire to come out. Again; if I hadn't have seen it; I wouldn't have believed it. Good luck!! T


#3

Bob E

Bob E

I'm not familiar with you tractor, but I had the same problem on an MTD not too long ago. I used a 2/3 jaw gear puller set up for 2 jaw, but replaced the jaws with eye bolts. I ran the eye bolts through the holes in the wheel meant to attach wheel weights and put big fender washers and wing nuts on the backside. I proceeded to straighten out the eye bolts. I soaked the wheel to axle joint front and back with PB Blaster for almost 2 weeks. I still had to use the puller but the wheels came of pretty easy.


#4

B

Buckshot 1

:smile: I have a Buddy that is a good tire man. He can change tires, install tubes with the tires and rims still on the tractor. I do not have the patience for tire work. If and when you do get them off, clean the axle real good and coat the axle with never-seize/grease before installing the rim, should never have a problem getting them off again.


#5

reynoldston

reynoldston

If the wheels are welded onto the axles it looks like you will have to install the tires on the tractor with the wheels on the tractor. It sounds like someone did a cob job some time in the pass. Other then that maybe cut the weld off and reweld it when you install the wheels??


#6

skillet

skillet

Thank y'all for the advice. Would pictures help y'all diagnose the problem more thoroughly? Thanks in advance.


#7

B

Buckshot 1

:smile: Yes to the pictures.


#8

skillet

skillet

Thanks Buckshot, I'll post them either today or tomorrow.


#9

B

Buckshot 1

:thumbsup: You are Welcome, I will be looking for them.


#10

skillet

skillet

Well, it's been raining for two days straight here and I can't get a picture. The wheels have a snap ring bearing but I can't get it off. The right rear tire has no snap ring but it still won't budge. I've tried PB Blaster and no luck. It may be badly rusted on but I have no way of heating the bearing up to bust it off. Anyone else had this problem? Thanks


#11

reynoldston

reynoldston

So they aren't welded on, I guess I can't picture in my mine what a snap ring bearing is or are you talking about the front wheels not back.


#12

Carscw

Carscw

skillet said:
Well, it's been raining for two days straight here and I can't get a picture. The wheels have a snap ring bearing but I can't get it off. The right rear tire has no snap ring but it still won't budge. I've tried PB Blaster and no luck. It may be badly rusted on but I have no way of heating the bearing up to bust it off. Anyone else had this problem? Thanks
Click to expand...

I use a bottle jack put one end on the frame other end on the wheel pump it a few times then turn the wheel and do it again takes a little time but works.

racing is the only sport that you need two balls


#13

reynoldston

reynoldston

Carscw said:
I use a bottle jack put one end on the frame other end on the wheel pump it a few times then turn the wheel and do it again takes a little time but works.

racing is the only sport that you need two balls
Click to expand...

If you use this method of removing the wheel be very careful because you can bend a wheel very easy.


#14

Carscw

Carscw

reynoldston said:
If you use this method of removing the wheel be very careful because you can bend a wheel very easy.
Click to expand...

Sorry left that part out. Try and get the jack as close to the center as you can.

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))


#15

B

Buckshot 1

:smile: If that rim is qualled to the axle that hard, I would not try the jack part, probably end up seperating the axle from the diff. via the c-clip holding the axle to the spider gear coming off. The break down on that transaxle show a washer and a c-clip/snap ring as wheel retainers. Evidently the tires will not take air?


#16

Carscw

Carscw

Buckshot 1 said:
:smile: If that rim is qualled to the axle that hard, I would not try the jack part, probably end up seperating the axle from the diff. via the c-clip holding the axle to the spider gear coming off. The break down on that transaxle show a washer and a c-clip/snap ring as wheel retainers. Evidently the tires will not take air?
Click to expand...

I assumed he took the c-clip off that holds the wheel on.
I have never had any trouble with the axle separating but I do see how it could happen

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))


#17

B

Buckshot 1

:smile: Carscw, I would hope so. I think the weld he is seeing is where they welded the hub to the rim, as there is no bearings in the hub. I have gotten lucky and moved the key back and froth on the axle shaft, to where I could get the key out.
then I was able to get the rim to turn on the axle shaft, therefor breaking it loose. But I notice from the IPL that the key in this application is a half moon, so no chance of getting it to move. Has racing season started yet for you?


#18

Carscw

Carscw

Buckshot 1 said:
:smile: Carscw, I would hope so. I think the weld he is seeing is where they welded the hub to the rim, as there is no bearings in the hub. I have gotten lucky and moved the key back and froth on the axle shaft, to where I could get the key out.
then I was able to get the rim to turn on the axle shaft, therefor breaking it loose. But I notice from the IPL that the key in this application is a half moon, so no chance of getting it to move. Has racing season started yet for you?
Click to expand...

The track opened two weeks ago. Sad to say I just have not had time to get ready to go. Been working 7 days a week for 3 weeks now.
We have a sand dredge at the river we are shutting down. Cutting everything up and selling for scrap. I have took on to much work again

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))


#19

B

Buckshot 1

Carscw said:
The track opened two weeks ago. Sad to say I just have not had time to get ready to go. Been working 7 days a week for 3 weeks now.
We have a sand dredge at the river we are shutting down. Cutting everything up and selling for scrap. I have took on to much work again

(( racing is the only sport that you need two balls ))
Click to expand...

:smile: In this day and age, it is a good thing to be working. I do not know about 7 days a week, I done that for years, as it paid for alot of my toys. We have 2 months to go before the track opens, unless you want to race dog sleds or snowmobiles. Good luck when you do get to racing. Wonder what skillet done about the rims?


#20

skillet

skillet

image-131299693.jpg

Here are the rims, sorry for the delay.

Attachments









#21

silver1

silver1

I had the same problem with my wheels. I did brake the axle clip and the axle came out with the wheel on it.
Then I put it in a bearing press and pushed it out.. I then learned the inside of the trans-axle. I have another
set that I need to get off and they have been soaking for three weeks and don't move yet. I may try to move
the key back and forth. Or maybe I'll remove the axles and press them off! :eek:....
It looks like you have one ring clip and one "E" clip. Remove both. Try a puller using the holes, but be careful
not to bend the wheels. Are you going to restore or just use the mower? You may just want to get new wheels
and cut off the old ones.....
LB


#22

reynoldston

reynoldston

WOW Unless you can change the tires on the tractor it is going to take a lot of penetrating oil and patience.
Heat will just burn up the axle seals.


#23

skillet

skillet

Thanks for all the help! I am planning on restoring the tractor to a certain point, (getting it moving and repainted) but don't have the equipment to press the bearings or to even cut those sorry lookin tires off. My neighbor said he could do it, but all he did was cut one tire, gave up, and called it a basket case. I was not able to break the bead or anything. I think getting the wheels off the axle may be out of the question.Any tips on replacing tires while the rims are ON the axle? Thank y'all in advance.


#24

reynoldston

reynoldston

Cut the tires off with a saws-all. If you don't own one you can buy a cheap one from harbor fraight or rent one.


#25

silver1

silver1

skillet said:
Thanks for all the help! I am planning on restoring the tractor to a certain point, (getting it moving and repainted) but don't have the equipment to press the bearings or to even cut those sorry lookin tires off. My neighbor said he could do it, but all he did was cut one tire, gave up, and called it a basket case. I was not able to break the bead or anything. I think getting the wheels off the axle may be out of the question.Any tips on replacing tires while the rims are ON the axle? Thank y'all in advance.
Click to expand...

You need to get the bad tires off. Hacksaw, hammer, lg screwdrivers.
I know you will have one hell of a time getting the wheels off! I would
drill a hole as close to the hub as possible and cut down to the Key.


#26

skillet

skillet

silver1 said:
You need to get the bad tires off. Hacksaw, hammer, lg screwdrivers.
I know you will have one hell of a time getting the wheels off! I would
drill a hole as close to the hub as possible and cut down to the Key.
Click to expand...

What exactly is the key?


#27

B

Buckshot 1

:smile: The key, which is a half moon, locks your rim to the axle. You will have to remove the snap ring and c-clip before those rims will even try to move. Do you know someone that has a cutting torch? If so, have them cut the center out of the rim, leaving the hub on the axle and then using a cut off tool, cut the thru the hub lengthways. You can then split of the hub to remove it from the axle. Be careful when cutting the hub, so as not to cut into the axle. Doing this you will have to come up with either new or used rims. I have used this method several times.


#28

reynoldston

reynoldston

Buckshot 1 said:
:smile: The key, which is a half moon, locks your rim to the axle. You will have to remove the snap ring and c-clip before those rims will even try to move. Do you know someone that has a cutting torch? If so, have them cut the center out of the rim, leaving the hub on the axle and then using a cut off tool, cut the thru the hub lengthways. You can then split of the hub to remove it from the axle. Be careful when cutting the hub, so as not to cut into the axle. Doing this you will have to come up with either new or used rims. I have used this method several times.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the help! I am planning on restoring the tractor to a certain point, (getting it moving and repainted) but don't have the equipment to press the bearings or to even cut those sorry lookin tires off.

As I can see it skillet just doesn't have the tools to do this. Yes this is how you or I would remove these wheels. Maybe bring it to a shop that has these tools?, rent tools, or buy tools. If you are going to restore tractors you will need some equipment to do so. getting it moving will take more then paint, these are just cold hard facts sorry.


#29

skillet

skillet

Is there a way that y'all know of where I can just break the bead and take them off? Is it that hard to just replace them on the rim?


#30

reynoldston

reynoldston

What I have done in the pass is take a very large dull chisel and hammer and go around the rim at the tire bead. They do make a specal chisel for this.


#31

skillet

skillet

reynoldston said:
What I have done in the pass is take a very large dull chisel and hammer and go around the rim at the tire bead. They do make a specal chisel for this.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the help, where might they sell a chisel like that?


#32

silver1

silver1

skillet said:
Is there a way that y'all know of where I can just break the bead and take them off? Is it that hard to just replace them on the rim?
Click to expand...

Have you ever replaced a bicycle tire? It is the same but the tractor tires are stronger. Most are 2 ply. They have tools to do the job.
You have rust. I had a tire shop replace some front tires and they did not clean the rims and they leaked. I had them do it again and they
had to clean the inside very well. They bent the rims the first time also. The rims are soft and can be bent very easily. I would cut them
off with a saw.


#33

reynoldston

reynoldston

They are called a bead breaker chisel. I don't own one but like I said I use a dull large chisel. To buy one I would try auto parts stores like NAPA, or
try Northern Tool Com., tractor supply com., look on E-bay, if you have a local tire shop that does truck or tractor tires maybe they will let you borrow or rent one from them.


#34

reynoldston

reynoldston

silver1 said:
. The rims are soft and can be bent very easily. I would cut them
off with a saw.
Click to expand...

I really don't see how you would get to the tire bead with a saw with the tire on the rim? maybe a small cut off wheel ???? never tryed it.


#35

K

KennyV

Cut the bead cord like suggested, or use PB-Blaster and chisel/Large screwdriver... You will get the old tires off eventually... Be careful that you don't wreck the rim while doing that.
Once you have all the old tire pieces off and the rim cleaned up, you will be able to mount a new tire with very little problem.

Here is a YouTube clip... It's mounting a larger tire... but will be the same, just smaller tools.
Outside Semi Tire Repair - YouTube
:smile:KennyV


#36

T

T J Blazek

Being that they are front tires; why can't you drop the front axle. That way you might be able to work with i easier; put it in a vise etc. You have to buy tires any way; take it there or trailer it. Might be easier. The smaller the tire the more trouble they are. Try a go cart tire..T


#37

skillet

skillet

T J Blazek said:
Being that they are front tires; why can't you drop the front axle. That way you might be able to work with i easier; put it in a vise etc. You have to buy tires any way; take it there or trailer it. Might be easier. The smaller the tire the more trouble they are. Try a go cart tire..T
Click to expand...

They are actually the rear tires. I can get the front ones off no problem. Thanks


#38

B

Buckshot 1

reynoldston said:
Thanks for all the help! I am planning on restoring the tractor to a certain point, (getting it moving and repainted) but don't have the equipment to press the bearings or to even cut those sorry lookin tires off.

As I can see it skillet just doesn't have the tools to do this. Yes this is how you or I would remove these wheels. Maybe bring it to a shop that has these tools?, rent tools, or buy tools. If you are going to restore tractors you will need some equipment to do so. getting it moving will take more then paint, these are just cold hard facts sorry.
Click to expand...

:thumbsup: Reynoldston, very true in your post. The old adage of, bubble gum, baling wire, pair of pliers and a screwdriver, went out the door many moons ago. With out the proper equipment, you might as well poop in one hand and wish in the other and, see which one fills up fast. Sounds to me like a repaint resto. I am out of ideas, I give up.


#39

skillet

skillet

I think I finally understand why they called it a basket case! I will try all y'all have told me to do this weekend. Thanks for all of the help!


#40

reynoldston

reynoldston

I sure hope I have never said it was a basket case. Not seeing the tractor in front of me I wouldn't know this. If all this tractor needs is a set of rear wheels
and tires I would think it is well worth repairing. Does it run? I also don't know your mechanical skills, your tools, equipment , place to work, or retired old man, a high school student. If all it needs is rear tires take it to a repair shop that can change them if you can't do it yourself. I have people bring me things all the time that they can't
repair themselves. Just why do you want this mower, to use or just to restore for something to do? Also what about money because maybe you would be
happier with a new mower?


#41

skillet

skillet

reynoldston said:
I sure hope I have never said it was a basket case. Not seeing the tractor in front of me I wouldn't know this. If all this tractor needs is a set of rear wheels
and tires I would think it is well worth repairing. Does it run? I also don't know your mechanical skills, your tools, equipment , place to work, or retired old man, a high school student. If all it needs is rear tires take it to a repair shop that can change them if you can't do it yourself. I have people bring me things all the time that they can't
repair themselves. Just why do you want this mower, to use or just to restore for something to do? Also what about money because maybe you would be
happier with a new mower?
Click to expand...

Oh no, it wasn't you! The tractor was actually my neighbors at one point in time, they brought it to the repair shop and they were told it was a "basket case" by the repairmen, for what reason I don't know. It then sat in the same spot at the equipment dealer for 5 years and wasn't for sale. I finally bought it for $75 bucks and was told if I can fix it, I'd have a job there. The funny thing is that the tractor technically was still my neighbors at the time, and they were never contacted about the sale. Oh well, it's a cool old tractor (1983) with a hydro. I have tried to start it, the starter works but I can't go any farther because of a bad fuel line leak. That's the story, hope you all enjoy it. Skillet


#42

reynoldston

reynoldston

I finally bought it for $75 bucks and was told if I can fix it, I'd have a job there. That is sure a odd way to hire someone at a equipment dealer. Just what would you be doing at this dealer? Just why would your neighbor leave his garden tractor at the dealers after he was told it wasn't repairable? If this tractor isn't repairable then it must need major work and I would run the other direction from this whole thing and keep my 75 dollars. It sounds to me like this dealer is giveing you a big story to get 75 dollars from you and something sure dosen't sound right here. You will be much better off finding employment else where because this dealer sound to me like a user.


#43

D

Dan Gregory

This as a very common problem and I have run into many times. When these type wheels are installed for the first time, they should have been lubricated with anti-seize or at least grease, but the people installing them, nor the manufacturer ever thinks of this ( they don't give a #$^% ).
If the shaft has a square key, I have had to drill it out with a long skinny drill. In some cases I drilled new "keyways". This will allow you to get penetrating oil deeper into the joint.
Another trick is to drill holes in the wheel hub, down to the axle and install grease zerks ( I have had to TIG weld them in place ). This will allow you to pump lubricant in under pressure, but will require you to apply heat to make the grease thinner.
Another trick is to put a piece of rubber hose over the hub with a hose clamp to seal it and hold it in place, Put a bunch of penetrating oil inside the hose, then put a cap on the hose with an air fitting. Use compressed air to force the oil into the joint. ( be careful not to blow the hose off the hub with too much pressure.
You may have to do all of the above in combination, and frankly, there's a good chance you may never get them off.
Take a look at the axle assembly and try to determine if it would be at all possible to remove the axle or each half of the axle ( even if this means disassembling the rear differential ), so that the wheels and shafts could be put in a press to force the shaft out. This will require a set up which will support the hub directly around the shaft while pressing. Don't even think about supporting the load with the flimsy sheet metal rim.
I can hear you cussing out the manufacturer already, as I have many times.

Good luck.


#44

reynoldston

reynoldston

Dan Gregory said:
This as a very common problem and I have run into many times. When these type wheels are installed for the first time, they should have been lubricated with anti-seize or at least grease, but the people installing them, nor the manufacturer ever thinks of this ( they don't give a #$^% ).
If the shaft has a square key, I have had to drill it out with a long skinny drill. In some cases I drilled new "keyways". This will allow you to get penetrating oil deeper into the joint.
Another trick is to drill holes in the wheel hub, down to the axle and install grease zerks ( I have had to TIG weld them in place ). This will allow you to pump lubricant in under pressure, but will require you to apply heat to make the grease thinner.
Another trick is to put a piece of rubber hose over the hub with a hose clamp to seal it and hold it in place, Put a bunch of penetrating oil inside the hose, then put a cap on the hose with an air fitting. Use compressed air to force the oil into the joint. ( be careful not to blow the hose off the hub with too much pressure.
You may have to do all of the above in combination, and frankly, there's a good chance you may never get them off.
Take a look at the axle assembly and try to determine if it would be at all possible to remove the axle or each half of the axle ( even if this means disassembling the rear differential ), so that the wheels and shafts could be put in a press to force the shaft out. This will require a set up which will support the hub directly around the shaft while pressing. Don't even think about supporting the load with the flimsy sheet metal rim.
I can hear you cussing out the manufacturer already, as I have many times.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Sound like you have a well equipped shop. Sent some pictures of it.


#45

D

Dan Gregory

Hey reynoldston,

I do have a lot of equipment and most of it I rarely use, but it sure comes in handy when you need it. I started out fixing mowers and stuff around the house when I was a kid, then worked for some small engine shops and now I am a self employed fabricator/machinist/machine builder, with my own shop. The one thing I still enjoy though, is working on lawn and garden equipment.

You might find this hard to believe, but I just finished, (before sitting down to write this email), pressing out axle shafts from the wheels of a Troy-Bilt sickle bar mower. After a week of soaking them with penetrating oil, I still had to cut the axle in half (solid axle) in order to remove the wheels and then put them in my 25 ton press. It took 20 tons of force and heating the wheel hub with a cutting torch to break one of them free. I will drill and pin the shaft in my lathe and then weld the shaft back together and straighten it in the press before reinstalling it.

All this because of a flat tire and the manufacturer doesn't think 5 cents worth of grease on the axles is worth doing at assembly.

Good thing I do this for fun because there's no way you could charge someone enough to make money at it.

Dan


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