Briggs 18 HP Hard to Start

bk10s

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I'm sorry I have been away and not reported back. Got involved with a water pump and a failed rear differential on my truck! It's a journey......
I will try to get a better look at the choke an if it is closing completely. Tried to start yesterday and took forever. Popped several times while cranking. The carb is in the front and difficult to access without taking off the hood. Further complicated by the snowblower on the front!
 

goodO1boydws

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I'm sorry I have been away and not reported back. Got involved with a water pump and a failed rear differential on my truck! It's a journey......
I will try to get a better look at the choke an if it is closing completely. Tried to start yesterday and took forever. Popped several times while cranking. The carb is in the front and difficult to access without taking off the hood. Further complicated by the snowblower on the front!
If you've hit your frustration level, the carb is cheap now that they're all coming from China.
I fought with one for a few years before I bit the bullet and went looking again.
The last time it had been something like $100.00, this time it was abut $25.00
 

TobyU

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If you've hit your frustration level, the carb is cheap now that they're all coming from China.
I fought with one for a few years before I bit the bullet and went looking again.
The last time it had been something like $100.00, this time it was abut $25.00
This does happen. Just three or four years ago you couldn't find any Kawasaki replacement carbs on eBay or Amazon for the self-propelled mowers like John Deere 14 SB etc.
Even use ones we're going for almost $100 because the cheapest new one was about 138 on Amazon.
Then all of a sudden they have some aftermarket ones pop up when some Chinese company finally copied them for $36 to your door.
The only reason I bought one or was looking for one is because a man brought me a lawn mower that he had had worked on in Florida before he moved North and when they gave it back to him it had no carburetor installed on it.
They had stuck the bolts back through the air filter housing and screwed them into the engine but no carb.
That was a shame because if he would have brought me the original carb he would have saved $36.

My main point here is 99.9% of the time you do not need a new carburetor.
I get calls way too often from people who say they cleaned out the carburetor but it still won't run right and I just roll my eyes and shake my head and wish they hadn't because there is a decent amount of likelihood that they've now messed something else up I will have to fix or fix some leak they've created because they messed with it and they obviously don't know what they're doing or it would be running properly and they wouldn't be needing to call me.

Almost always, if you understand how the carbs work and know what you're doing with each particular model or at least design style, you can clean them out properly and get them running perfectly without needing to buy a new one.
It is possible to run into something that's so rusted up that you can't even get it apart without it breaking and also possible to come into one that someone has tried to work on before and screwed up a passage or the jet and made the holes too big and that's not going to be fixed without some at least used replacement parts.

Far too often now, especially on YouTube because every video I see is either done the hard way or the wrong way.... people no a little bit or at least enough to be dangerous or maybe enough to get by most of the time maybe 50% to 60% of the time BUT they don't really understand it.
These people do what they call cleaning out a carburetor and never even get to the actual Jack cuz they don't know where it's at and then others take the whole thing off the machine which is a complete waste of time and put it in their fancy newfangled ultrasonic cleaner with whatever cleaner or their concoction of what is it now they're using half simple Green and half vinegar or something else. I don't even remember because it's a waste of time and product.
That's just throwing it in there and hoping it can do the job of cleaning out all the passages without really knowing where they are and doing it yourself.
A Honda carb or one of the Huayi ones are probably the best ones to start with so a person can actually learn how the carb is made and how the holes and jets and pastures all interact but you don't have to know all that if somebody just shows you one time how to take it apart and clean it all out.
Note that this is almost never necessary on a Huayi and only necessary occasionally on a Honda because you can do everything you need to do with it still not on the machine by only removing the float bowl and then unscrewing the main jet and on the Huayi even if you have to clean out the secondary jet and passages you can do this with it still on the machine.
You can also do this on a Honda on the machine however since you have to remove the air filter housing to do it you might as well just pop the fuel line off and slide it off, tilt it over to pop the linkage off of it and then hold it in your hand to do it or place it on the bench.
I don't do it first though because many times when it Honda doesn't start at all then it just needs the main jet cleaned out and it will run perfectly once you do that. However about 30 or 40% of the time you will have one that surges afterwards or if you get one that comes in that already surges once the choke opens up then you're going to have to clean out the secondary idle jet anyways so you might as well just take it off.
There's a big difference from working on your own stuff peddling on the weekend when you have three or four hours to kill with nothing to do so you're going to spend 45 minutes or an hour messing with you more versus having a hundred of them lined up with seemingly no end in sight when you are trying to fix them as quickly and efficiently as possible so you can get on to the next one. Time is of the essence because for some reason people are obsessed with cutting their grass and they are extremely unresourceful in finding ways to do this when their mower is in the shop.
 

goodO1boydws

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First of all, these engines are about as simple as you're liable to run into today.

It appears that the plugs are either new and/or have been cleaned and gapped properly, and that the fuel filter and air filter and prefilter (if it has one) have been checked and replaced if necessary.

Issues with engine timing, and "emission controls" are so rare as to be not of consideration.

If the engine struggles to start but then runs ok once started there are only a couple things that it CAN be.

If it appears to run properly once started, the valves-(even if sightly misadjusted), are set closely enough.

Again, if it appears to run properly once started and has reasonable power, the compression-(even if one cylinder is lower than the other, or both-are a little low) is close enough.

If it starts AT ALL, the ignition is working ok-AND if it runs ok after starting, the odds of it being an ACTUAL ignition issue are effectively zero. (If its cranking too slowly to generate a consistent spark while attempting to start that is something else entirely.).

So that leaves the fuel system.

Since it DOES start, and it then apparently DOES runs ok-with reasonable power once started, it is getting AT LEAST enough fuel.
In fact, it is likely to be getting TOO MUCH fuel while attempting to start-as evidenced by the "popping".

If someone doesn't have the skills, tools, time, or inclination to clean and set a carburetor up properly, it makes sense to either take it to someone who does-OR (if determined to "solve" the problem themselves), to start with a clean slate.

In this case, since other reasonably likely possibilities have effectively been eliminated from the equation, that means trying a DIFFERENT KNOWN TO BE GOOD OR NEW carburetor-one that HAS NOT been tinkered-with.

The old one is (by now) likely to either be in need of a proper cleaning, is misadjusted, or has worn parts.

The latter includes, (but is not limited to) a float level that is too high from a float bouncing so many times it is no longer in the proper position, OR a worn needle/seat combination that allows too much gas to be sneaking into the carburetor (in SPITE of a float that may still be set properly), OR a worn throttle shaft and/or a worn throttle shaft BORE in the carburetor's casting (either of which can allow enough UNMETERED AND UNMETERABLE air OR fuel OR BOTH to sneak past the throttle plate WHEN ATTEMPTING TO START, (by distorting the fuel to air mixture from what it would be if such excess clearance was not present).

Any single one of these conditions can easily make an engine difficult to start-and in combination even more difficult.
 
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TobyU

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First of all, these engines are about as simple as you're liable to run into today.

It appears that the plugs are either new and/or have been cleaned and gapped properly, and that the fuel filter and air filter and prefilter (if it has one) have been checked and replaced if necessary.

Issues with engine timing, and "emission controls" are so rare as to be not of consideration.

If the engine struggles to start but then runs ok once started there are only a couple things that it CAN be.

If it appears to run properly once started, the valves-(even if sightly misadjusted), are set closely enough.

Again, if it appears to run properly once started and has reasonable power, the compression-(even if one cylinder is lower than the other, or both-are a little low) is close enough.

If it starts AT ALL, the ignition is working ok-AND if it runs ok after starting, the odds of it being an ACTUAL ignition issue are effectively zero. (If its cranking too slowly to generate a consistent spark while attempting to start that is something else entirely.).

So that leaves the fuel system.

Since it DOES start, and it then apparently DOES runs ok-with reasonable power once started, it is getting AT LEAST enough fuel.
In fact, it is likely to be getting TOO MUCH fuel while attempting to start-as evidenced by the "popping".

If someone doesn't have the skills, tools, time, or inclination to clean and set a carburetor up properly, it makes sense to either take it to someone who does-OR (if determined to "solve" the problem themselves), to start with a clean slate.

In this case, since other reasonably likely possibilities have effectively been eliminated from the equation, that means trying a DIFFERENT KNOWN TO BE GOOD OR NEW carburetor-one that HAS NOT been tinkered-with.

The old one is (by now) likely to either be in need of a proper cleaning, is misadjusted, or has worn parts.

The latter includes, (but is not limited to) a float level that is too high from a float bouncing so many times it is no longer in the proper position, OR a worn needle/seat combination that allows too much gas to be sneaking into the carburetor (in SPITE of a float that may still be set properly), OR a worn throttle shaft and/or a worn throttle shaft BORE in the carburetor's casting (either of which can allow enough UNMETERED AND UNMETERABLE air OR fuel OR BOTH to sneak past the throttle plate WHEN ATTEMPTING TO START, (by distorting the fuel to air mixture from what it would be if such excess clearance was not present).

Any single one of these conditions can easily make an engine difficult to start-and in combination even more difficult.
Very true but it seems in this case he just isn't getting enough fuel because it was stated before that he sprays some gas or starting fluid etc into the carb it fires right up, if I am remembering the earlier post correctly.
It is, however, possible that there is another minor air leak somewhere between carb and intake or intake and engine or even the throttle shaft that could be letting air in thus reducing the effectiveness of the choke but it's fairly unlikely.
We often get into the mentality of saying this or that can't happen when in reality if you do this long enough you'll see a decent number of things happen right in front of you that aren't supposed to be able to happen or "never" happen.
You're right about the troubleshooting though as far too often people don't largely think these things out or just don't understand how the systems work and they replace parts hoping and grasping but in the end they're just wasting time and money.
I'm not in real agreement about the carburetor though because half the time when people buy these eBay and Amazon carburetors it's not really a fact that it's a known good carburetor. New doesn't always mean good.
Also, pretty much 99% of these if not 100% of these engines unless you happen to have something old enough to have a Tecumseh on it and those weren't common on these machines....does not have any float adjustment whatsoever because there is no bendable tang like the Tecumseh had on both the brass and the plastic version of the float.
Everything breaks from the overhead valve engines and even the flat l heads on the riders for a number of years before that and all of the new Chinese built engines etc have a plastic float but no adjustment of the float height and none of that ever gets out of spec.
The needle and seat leakage that you speak of can occur and often does on older machines and can occur as early as 8 years or anytime if a speck of dirt or hair gets in there but that almost never results in an engine that won't start or run properly..
At worst it could flood out or get a plug wet or even hydralocky cylinder but after removing the plug and cranking it over a few times, it will start right back up and run fine. The problem with the leaky needle and seat almost always occurs and presents itself as flooding after it sits and not needing any choke to start and fuel migrating over into the crankcase and diluting the oil and the gas tank being much lower than it was when you parked it or even empty.
Once one is found to be doing this then it certainly should be fixed because the workaround of the fuel shut off never works long-term because you eventually forget to turn it off and you flood things out again.
I just don't believe in replacing parts. I only do so when I absolutely have to.
I would rather keep an old original carburetor on a Briggs single OHV and put a new needle and seat into it than to put a brand new carburetor on it whether it be a Briggs & Stratton way over price carburetor or a generic cheapy readily available online.
They sing so rarely give any odd running conditions as long as you clean them out well so the only time I would ever even consider another one would be if I had some very weird running issue I couldn't put a finger on and then I would swap one from another perfectly good running engine so I did know absolutely for sure that that carburetor was perfect.
I've done this twice in the past 15 years.
Once was on a Briggs overhead valve single like we're talking about on a used mower I purchased that would start and run perfectly at idle but would not rev up.
Now it's been over a decade so I don't remember exactly how it acted I don't think it popped or spit or anything like that but it seemed more to lean out of fuel but again I don't remember exactly.
It must have acted like a lean condition because I would have probably sprayed some gas into the throat while revving it up to see if I could improve the situation but I did swap a carburetor onto it just to make sure and it ran exactly the same so that ruled out carb and fuel.
I also remember checking the valve adjustment and such but I didn't bother to do any more digging. It's possible the engine had been apart and the camshaft was installed a notch or two off or something like that.
Like with my other post, it was far quicker to just throw one of my perfectly good running engines on that machine which is what I did and it was ready for sale that day and sold it in the next 3 days. It wasn't worth taking the time to disassemble that engine and put new parts into it when I had funny of good used donor engines.
I was so busy after that I don't think I ever even tore that engine apart to look inside of it. Now, I don't toss anything until I scavenge all the parts I can off of and out of them..
I did this once again on one of the newer Briggs small push mower overhead valve engines the first year those were out.
Had that one that was surging badly. A number of them do that from time to time but this was quite extreme and I had already cleaned out the carburetor. So I decided to swap another carb that ran perfectly onto it and did the exact same thing so obviously it wasn't the carb.
I was able to increase the speed on that one which is a little low and it smooth out to acceptable levels but still not as good as I would have liked. Really never did figure out exactly what was wrong with that one but that was in the first round of them I ever saw. Haven't ran into the situation again.
I do like to understand how these things work and I love to troubleshoot more than I actually like to fix.
 

bk10s

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there's an easy test. squirt some gas in the carb when cold and if it starts right up then you aren't getting enough gas. if this has a vacuum operated fuel pump, squirt the hoses where they connect to the pump with a little fuel / 2stroke oil mix. sometimes they suck air and even a little bit will keep it from pumping enough into your carb. It seals minor vacuum leaks. Most of y'all are over-thinking this problem.

Also, because of EPA the carbs run LEAN so any slight issue with the fuel pump will cause a hard-start problem. the reason it runs great after it starts is because it's creating more vacuum at the pump, overcoming the vacuum leak.
Getting back to this unit since we had a snowstorm today. Cranked forever to get it started. Fuel from cleaned out tank to filter through new line is low flowing. Fuel will not come out of filter unless I disconnect line and hold it down low. Then gas trickles out slowly. No gas getting to the pump. Maybe I will replace lines from filter to pump and pump to carb in case of vacuum leaks. Adjusted choke and I believe it is closing fully. Finally did start and ran good through wet, heavy snow on 3 driveways!
 

bk10s

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Getting back to this unit since we had a snowstorm today. Cranked forever to get it started. Fuel from cleaned out tank to filter through new line is low flowing. Fuel will not come out of filter unless I disconnect line and hold it down low. Then gas trickles out slowly. No gas getting to the pump. Maybe I will replace lines from filter to pump and pump to carb in case of vacuum leaks. Adjusted choke and I believe it is closing fully. Finally did start and ran good through wet, heavy snow on 3 driveways!
 

TobyU

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I still think your carb bowl is getting low/running out of fuel after it sits. If low flow was the problem, it would not run good after you get it started.
I always run my fingers around a bowl and in bottom after it's been parked for a few hours to see if fingers get wet from leaking gas.
 

mechanizm

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Getting back to this unit since we had a snowstorm today. Cranked forever to get it started.
this is generally because the fuel lines get dry allowing air into the system. the fuel pump can't pump if it's sucking air instead of fuel. I always squirt some gas in my mowers if they sat for a while ESPECIALLY in cold weather. This gets the fuel pump working faster overcoming a minor air leak. those fuel lines get brittle and don't seal well. after I get it thumping with fluid, i spray all of the connections with fuel/2stroke mix and that seals them.
 

mechanizm

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Briggs 350777 Replaced plugs, coils, adjusted valves. Have to turn it over for 20-30 seconds to get it to start. Once started runs fantastic. What am I missing? Some kind of fuel problem? Replaced fuel pump a couple of years ago.
This is easy... don't go nuts doing a complicated test and "fix". It's obviously not getting gas which is the most common problem with lawn tractors because you use them then they sit for a while. the fuel line connections are likely leaking a little bit of air which causes your fuel pump to suck air instead of fuel. Do this test when it's cold after it sat for a while. squirt some starter fluid into the carb and I'll bet that it immediately thumps. this means that your engine is starving for fuel which is either the fuel pump OR (more likely) air leaking into the dry fuel lines not allowing your pump to suck fuel. I spray the connections of my fuel lines with gas/2stroke mix which seals them. this almost always solves my hard-start problem.
 
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