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I hope all of you get to read this, it is long, but very important.

I have noticed that lawnmowers these days are all made for looks and not quality. What seems like many years ago, mowers and whatever else was equipped with an engine was made here in the United States, land of the free. This land of the free has turned into a land of people who are controlled by foreign made products which lack desired quality, making us not so free. I found a post on GardenForums that made me want to repost it here

Is a Chinese engine necessarily "bad?" Doesn't it come down to oversight and quality control Ariens requires. Come on now, do you think Ariens says to some fly by night company operating along the Yangtze River, give me 1000 engines sight unseen? All you Walmart shoppers, 80% of the items you buy in there are from China.
I guess we need to live with the reality that we need to accept Chinese products. We as a nation do not care and we allowed manufacturing to leave. We do not have it in our character anymore and have zero pride to defend what was once great in the USA. What a joke, yeh, Americans standing up and boycotting Chinese or Japanse products. Those days are long gone. Sad thing is, it is our power to control this...the purchaser has the power...but not the will.

Lets all look in the mirror now.

If any of you have some extra cash, I strongly suggest making a business that makes lawn equipment here in the USA. I am sure you will get backed by other members in the forum with ideas or financial backup. I know if I had the money I would have made one a long time ago. I think we need to bring pride, quality, and workmanship back here. I know lawn equipment will not completely solve this, but its a very big step, because lawn equipment is very costly. Most of you guys will probably agree here, and I think someone on this site has the power to do that :smile:

Well, we are seeing the global market at work here. Corporate taxing structure, labor rates, cost of manufacturing are a small component of what we are facing in this country that we call the United States. Ninety nine percent of us are descendants of folks that came overseas for a brighter future, and there still is some glimmer of hope on the horizon, as far as I can tell. If there was a percieved need for another US made bit of lawn care equipment, it would probably be in the works by now. The market forces that make our very own nationally made equipment are working against us, however. The popularity (and affordability) of offshore manufactured equipment is tough to compete against. I'd just as soon buy US made as anything else, but I, like millions of others in this country, frequently vote with my wallet. Perhaps this topic needs to get moved to the Front Porch?

Actually I have been watching a show (I forget what it is called) about them making a house from all American products. Everything from the nail in the wall to the pillow was made here, and they found it was cheaper than it would have been from foreign products. I just hope someone reads this and catches on

motorrefurb said:

Actually I have been watching a show (I forget what it is called) about them making a house from all American products. Everything from the nail in the wall to the pillow was made here, and they found it was cheaper than it would have been from foreign products. I just hope someone reads this and catches on

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I just hope we as a nation can get the clue quickly enough we don't revert to being a third world country.

Oh don't worry! We will be here doing nothing productive but having most of the children play Call of Duty on Xbox and not knowing how to build or fix anything and care less and less about pride. Now I say most children not all, because I know some of you are amazing parents. But back to subject, someone please! Make a company that makes domestic lawn equipment!

benski said:

I just hope we as a nation can get the clue quickly enough we don't revert to being a third world country.

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People in the US need to get off their high horse and recognize they need to work to get paid. I would much prefer everyone to work harder make a good living with fewer extravagances and survive. Much better than what I see coming if we keep our heads stuck in the sand.

The thing is most of the lawnmower and engine makers have factories overseas and make certain engines there for the american market. Kohler and Briggs both have chinese plants. Certain Kohler engines were made by Suzuki. The new smaller Kohler consumer engines are made in China. Small Dolmar chainsaws are assembled in china at the Makita plant using parts imported from Germany. the Briggs vanguard big block engines and the three cylinder gas and diesel engines are a diahutsu design.

My mower is a Ferris, made in NY state USA. Best mower I have ever owned, well made and no problems. My motor cycle is a Harley Davidson same thing well made bike no plastic. My ATV is a American made Polaris and will out perform any Japanese Honda. etc.---

Being a x Chevrolet mechanic of over 20 years never owned any thing else but Chevy. The car before the one I have now was a Chevrolet Malibu. This was a American made car and it was the worst car I have ever owned in my life. It just had one problem after another. My daughter had the same make and model car with the same problims I had. I was so mad that I bought a Toyota Camry for my next car. Japanese made. I have over 60,000 miles on this Toyota and so far the only thing I have spent money on is oil changes and tires. I pulled the front wheels to check the brake pads and they looked like new yet. My question is why is American quality going backward on cars. This is just a sad thing that the Japanese can get ahead of us in car quality.

Sorry for all you Chevy guys, but Chevrolet is getting worse with domestic parts year after year. Also a Chevy Malibu is not one of the higher end ones, its more of a consumer car

Too many folks are wanting to blame someone else for what is happening around them...
It is natural to look for a simple explanation for things... there are no simple explanations for any complex situations.

China, like every other country can and does make some outstanding products... Every country, including these United States can make Junk... I know, I've seen it...
The company that specs the components & overseas the quality control, is ultimately to blame for shoddy equipment...
We have members here at LMF from China... and they are faced with the same type problems we have... Everyone is trying to get the best for the chore at hand... This is already the end of 2011... everyone will have to realize we are in a World economic environment...
A labor force can NOT demand higher pay... just because the cost of living is going up...
People will have to produce More labor or live WITHIN their means...

The only way to make it appear, that you can afford to buy a high quality item, when you can't .... is to make that item cheaper... and after a while the item will be as cheapened as it can get... At that point no one will be happy with it... Not the manufacturer, not the distributor & definitely not the consumer...
It will take a while, but eventually we will have to "live within our means" and spend a LOT more of our 'leisure' time researching the true value of our necessary purchases...
Fortunately ... We have LMF... :smile:KennyV

motorrefurb said:

Sorry for all you Chevy guys, but Chevrolet is getting worse with domestic parts year after year. Also a Chevy Malibu is not one of the higher end ones, its more of a consumer car

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Don't know what a consumer car is but I know the Chevrolet Malibu is a good car for the parts stores and repair shops they just make all kinds of money off from them.

Working a shop that sells and services all power machines - the new stuff is junk and 50% we have to modify the builders design . Cheap fatigued metal in ten hours of use . Broken cables ends in the first use . Crankshaft and valve specs way off .
When a Pre 1990 machine comes into the shop the owner is told to keep it running at all costs .
Our $2800.00 lawn tractors have steering failures , PTO failures and hydraulic failures after a few uses . Serious electric issues - MICE eat wires and all the new stuff does not have the simple Pre 1990 easy to patch systems.
Who really makes who machine - the companies keep getting bought by other companies .
Real shame !

I remember working on this realllllly old snowblower that was extremely sturdy and it was made here. And by consumer car I mean commuter or economy car. We all have to cut the white collar jobs and start getting blue collar :confused2:

(I am most definitely not a member of the xyz party or any other select group, 'cept maybe Curmudgeons anonymous.):laughing:

I think I have heard this argument advanced, first time, back in the fifties. I think it glosses over 2 important facts.

1) - foreign made = (means) exotic and therefore confers "status" to the possessor. This is probably a direct result of the Protestant Work Ethic and the American way of life.

2) - the price of consumer goods whether it is food for our tables or mowers for are lawns is inflated more by profit margin than we are willing to acknowledge. If you take the price of whatever item you want to purchase and divide it by 2 (halving it) you got the true cost of that object to the local merchant, divide it by half again (1/4) and that's the price to the distributer, half again (1/8) is the price of to the buying agent. Somewhere past this - two steps? three? you've got the original cost of manufacturing.

So simplifying the 'food chain" will drop the consumer's out-of-pocket cost? Sorry Bunky but that doesn't happen. The difference goes into the pocket of whatever step simplifies the chain. Why? Because there no real reason to change the price.

If we can - we need to refine and redefine ourselves as a society with real values and real goals and sadly I do not see that happening.

motorrefurb said:

I hope all of you get to read this, it is long, but very important.

This land of the free has turned into a land of people who are controlled by foreign made products which lack desired quality, making us not so free.

We do not have it in our character anymore and have zero pride to defend what was once great in the USA. What a joke, yeh, Americans standing up and boycotting Chinese or Japanse products.

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I would somewhat disagree with your first point, Chuck. I think it used to mean exotic. "Imported" used to stand for more than it does today. And I think the Japanese auto industry did a lot to hurt that. The early Japanese cars were cheap, unsafe cars. They may have had decent engines, but would fold up quickly in a crash with/ or compared to, heavy American cars.

I have owned both John Deere and Cub Cadet products over the years. I bought my John Deere 2305 CUT from a small dealer in Central NY state.
I then found out that this dealer wasn't selling enough product for John Deere so they took away his franchise.
When a large American company can do this to a dealer who had been selling John Deere for over 60 years what does that say about "made in America"?.
I wrote to John Deere voicing my displeasure at the above and never received a response
Incidentally the engine was a Yanmar diesel made in Japan.
I still have the John Deere and a Cub Cadet commercial mower and have nothing but good to say about both machines.

Mike

Mike, that's the deal with our products, they are high quality, but no where to be found.

Chuck, that's a great way to put it. There are so many different parts of the cost you dissect it so much until you find the tiny actual price to manufacture it. Foreign countries are smart about this and don't do all the middleman stuff, so the price is basically labor, shipping, and the cheap metals that they use to make it.

I am sickened by big box stores more and more. People are carrying around these massive boxes that, yeah they look nice, but get ready for that to break and then deal with the stress. Most or all leather couches and furniture in those stores are made in China or Taiwan. Most of the people who buy these are these people with a bunch of little kids. Yeah, of course they don't care if its made foreign, they are probably the whitest collar people around who don't know what a anvil is. This is getting sickening day after day............ Once I get rich I will fix this problem. Who has ideas for me to get rich !!!!???? :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

motorrefurb said:

............ But back to subject, someone please! Make a company that makes domestic lawn equipment!

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What cheappie mowers are you looking at ?

I think that there are more domestic lawn mower manufacturers in the US of A than any other country...... But, I could be wrong...... Just my 3 cents worth.

Sammy the Red said:

I think that there are more domestic lawn mower manufacturers in the US of A than any other country...... But, I could be wrong...

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There are a lot manufactured here in Kansas... :smile:KennyV

I think everything under 23hp or something like that is made foreign, and those types of equipment (lawnmowers, tillers, snowblowers, trimmer, weedeaters, chainsaws) are the most common

You can still buy american made lawntractors - find one sitting rotting away in a yard and rebuild it - all my pre 2000 tractors are USA made, unfortunately some of the replacement parts are made elsewhere....unless i find original OEM stuff.

The motors on them are all USA made too - briggs flatheads- before being made in China .

I do have a couple 'foreign' motors, a lone 5HP honda ( off a free broken pressure washer) and one of those greyhound motors from Harbor freight ( honda clone) as well as one on my generator.

I dont think thats right on everything being made in China. Some engine parts are no doubt, and some engines but not all those under 23 horsepower. MTD, Briggs, John Deer, Huskvarna, Toro, all have factories in the U.S.. Those folks they employ are not just watering the lawn and the shrubs, they are making various lawn mowers, putting them togather etc. Again some parts and aassemblies are made in China but then some are made in other countries, or in the States or even by another lawn mower company. As far as engines go there are still engines being made here in the United States by Briggs and Kohler. Some engines have been made in other countries and sold here since there were engines. I do not know what small handheld engines are being made here but im sure there are some.

the huskys are made in Orangeburg S.C. I have the MZ6128 zt and it is an awesome machine for 4995.00.

And it should be for $4995.00 lol. I am going to look that unit up to get a good look at it. Looked it up. Quite an outfit.

GREED is the greatest problem. Remember when Milwaukee--Ridgid---Dewalt---Porter Cable--just to name a few, were quality?? They had a reputation for quality and that's what made them desireable.
In my opinion, they threw quality out the door when they became foreign made:thumbdown:
I would rather have an old AMERICAN made tool then TWO NEW China tools.
I am sure China makes quality items--I have just never owned one!
I have a friend that is the manager of a local BB store. While at his home, we were discussing items that his store sells and their quality. He made a statement that really surprised me concerning returned items. He said that the number of returned items was so great that they now had to restock most of them!!
That simply does not make sense to me but I guess the next person can make it work or just live with it.
Sad thing is--When I ask where an item is made, I get a confused look or a smart answer:thumbdown:
It matters to me or I wouldn't ask.
I am now searching for American made gas logs for my fireplace and have found that the Communist made ones are almost as expensive as American--some are higher:thumbdown:
I ALWAYS try to buy American:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Giles you cleared up my point for me :biggrin: And since when are Milwaukee and Porter Cable not made here?? I know SOME, not all of my Kobalt tools are made here like my sockets and drivers and my screwdrivers. I know I have one of those tool boxes and it was made in China, and it was over $500 I think! I was disappointed by the quality, and when I looked at the inspection checklist it came with, everything was checked as good, when it was so bad quality I thought all the pieces were going to fall off!

motorrefurb said:

Giles you cleared up my point for me :biggrin: And since when are Milwaukee and Porter Cable not made here?? I know SOME, not all of my Kobalt tools are made here like my sockets and drivers and my screwdrivers. I know I have one of those tool boxes and it was made in China, and it was over $500 I think! I was disappointed by the quality, and when I looked at the inspection checklist it came with, everything was checked as good, when it was so bad quality I thought all the pieces were going to fall off!

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And since when are Milwaukee and Porter Cable not made here?? When I recently searched for some power tools, every name brand tool I checked had CHINA printed on the tag
I ended up buying a Bosch SDS+ hammer drill--made in Germany:frown:--- at least not China:thumbdown:

I think you all realize that the country of origin and the political climate of that country has nothing to do with the Quality....
The design and specified tolerance & materials will determine the overall quality.
A tool made to "Snap-on" specs will be the same quality no matter where it is made...

The person dictating the specifications is the one dictating the Quality... :smile:KennyV

A few years ago, I installed gas plumbing in my home. I bought length of black iron pipe and threded the different lengths myself. I went to a BB store and bought all the fittings I needed. I installed the system with twelve connections and pressure tested.
Unbelievable that I had SEVEN connections that leaked.
A pipe fitter at my work place asked me where the fittings were made, and of course CHINA
He informed me that he never used China fittings for this very reason:frown:
I went to a local plumbing supply and bought all fittings, American made.
I stripped out all the system and reinstalled. I had ZERO leaks:thumbsup::thumbsup:
So I wonder if these fittings were made to an American companies specks:confused2:

In pipe there are tapered and straight cut threads... also SAE and metric size and thread pitch... For sure they were made to someones spec... and that was obviously not the SAE tapered pipe threads that you needed... someone ordered it wrong, it was made correct, (according to the specification), that is not a manufacturers error... But these things can happen, always check for leaks, with gas lines... :smile:KennyV

You are correct, but--I have done a lot of plumbing and I know the difference in different type threads:thumbsup:

I am in the plumbing business and have found that Ward makes good black fittings that pass leak tests far better than China made fittings. Very little difference in cost too.

Bosch is a very good company, I think Germany and some other European countries make the best stuff :biggrin: But many things from China tend to overheat, at least for me

I believe that Vise-Grip went overseas last year.

Keep your old ones !

jenkinsph cute dog :biggrin: My bench vise I bought was made in China, it was absolute trash! Then I bought another one, still made in China, and it is decent looking, I haven't used it yet because I need to figure out a way to get the 3 pounds of grease they smother it with off

A few years ago, I bought a 6" Chinese made vice that looked really heavy built. It was at a yard sale, so the price was negotiated.
I used it for a few weeks and then it broke.
Unbelievable that the screw was connected to the handle with a 5mm roll pin:thumbdown:
The full force of the clamping was against this pin
Would have probably been OK if it was a 2"--but the pin would have been smaller--wouldn't it:laughing:
I could see no way of welding or modifying because the pin had to be installed after assembly:thumbdown:
Definately a cheap way to manufacture:thumbdown:
I took it to the scrap yard

Giles said:

.... I bought a 6" Chinese made vice that looked really heavy built.
The full force of the clamping was against this pin
...
Definately a cheap way to manufacture:thumbdown:
I took it to the scrap yard

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There have been tools sold, that "Look" like tools at a glance... but if you look close, or actually use them, you will soon see their short comings... I think everyone of us has been stung by this type thing.
Those tools are made to Sell ... NOT to Buy.

At least you will now know one thing to look for when buying a vice... and there are some outstanding machinist grade vices and tooling made... in China, at very good prices.
You just have to look at what you are buying, and Know what to look for... but that has always been the case. As more and more company's & people in this country look for the cheapest (looks good enough, to sell) items, the consumer needs to start looking closer... again it is not the manufacturer that specs the product... it is someone here in this country that makes the decision that the quality is Not important... and that is how they order the parts & assemblies... same thing happens with lawn mowers, and any other consumer good... it's not the country or manufacturer ... it's generally going to be someone here responsible for the lack of quality... :smile:KennyV

This "roll pin" was not visable without disassembly (hidden) and was a major ordeal to repair
I am a Retired Tool&Die Maker and I know a quality tool when I can "SEE" it:laughing:
I bought this really cheap:ashamed: and my intent for this post was to describe my experience--Of which I have had many with China Junk:thumbsup:
I should have known better but I didn't know it was Chinese made until it broke:ashamed:
I do not necessarly have a problem with Foreign made items--I have some Japanese, German, and British tools that are high quality---I have just never purchased a quality Chinese tool:thumbdown:
I think that if you do a little research--you will discover there are far more people who hate China items then would recommend them:smile:
I think most of the problems associated with China tools is material quality:thumbdown:
In my personal opinion--from experience--China has the worst quality steel in the world and Great Britian has the higest:thumbsup:

Giles said:

This "roll pin" was not visable without disassembly (hidden) and was a major ordeal to repair
I am a Retired Tool&Die Maker and I know a quality tool when I can "SEE" it:laughing:
I bought this really cheap:ashamed: and my intent for this post was to describe my experience--Of which I have had many with China Junk:thumbsup:
I should have known better but I didn't know it was Chinese made until it broke:ashamed:
I do not necessarly have a problem with Foreign made items--I have some Japanese, German, and British tools that are high quality---I have just never purchased a quality Chinese tool:thumbdown:
I think that if you do a little research--you will discover there are far more people who hate China items then would recommend them:smile:
I think most of the problems associated with China tools is material quality:thumbdown:
In my personal opinion--from experience--China has the worst quality steel in the world and Great Britian has the higest:thumbsup:

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I 've had pretty good luck with everything except Chinese and Indian manufactured tools. The manufacturing tolerances, forging quality, and especially steel quality leave a TON to be desired.
I guess the old cliche about getting what you pay for usually holds true. I just grit my teeth and get decent stuff, hopefully only once!:ashamed::biggrin:

Giles said:

...
...
I think that if you do a little research--you will discover there are far more people who hate China items then would recommend them:smile:
I think most of the problems associated with China tools is material quality:thumbdown:

...

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You are correct...
But it is not because the stuff is made in China... it's because some unscrupulous importer saw fit to order container loads of junk, that was built, as junk, then distributed it through the country...
Those that order tools made, that Only Look like tools, are the ones to fault...

I have a friend that is an importer, mostly from China... When requested every item can be, and is sent over as a sample, prior to ordering a container... The junk that is flooding the cheep tool outlets, is not representative of Chinese quality... it only is showing the quality that the importer wanted to sell...

my point was, mowers today & many other things, like that vice, are getting into the supply system, because there is someone here in our country that has No regard for quality, and they are ordering substandard goods, made with materials that only Look like the real thing... And in some cases, long standing corporate names are allowing their trade names used to sell known inferior products... :smile:KennyV

benski said:

....
I guess the old cliche about getting what you pay for usually holds true. I just grit my teeth and get decent stuff, hopefully only once!:ashamed::biggrin:

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That's still true.
When it comes to tools, I would much rather buy a good well made tool, than a full 'set' of throw away, look like tools ...
Not only will they last longer, but there is less chance that the tool will damage the item I'm working on...or break and damage Me...

Getting back to the posts title "American made stuff"... since more and more sold in America, is Not made in America, I still think we should hold those American companies accountable, that order this stuff and specify junk when it's ordered... The countries that supply this stuff are doing exactly what the order asked for, they are shipping junk.
It has been mentioned before, there was a time that Japan printed on any item equated to Junk... same thing, at that time we were ordering mostly junk from Japan ... :smile:KennyV

About two weeks ago, I was at a BB store to purchase a 10" carbide tip 60 tooth saw blade. I saw a Dewalt that was Made in China that was almost double in price of a Vermont American, right next to it, that was made in USA.
How many people will purchase the Dewalt for its name, and not care where it"s made??
I bought the VA:thumbsup::thumbsup:

KennyV said:

...............It has been mentioned before, there was a time that Japan printed on any item equated to Junk... same thing, at that time we were ordering mostly junk from Japan ... :smile:KennyV

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I remember a bumper sticker that was on my Uncles pickup in the '60's.......
"Made In Japan From Old Beer Cans !" :biggrin:

German stuff tends to hold up the best for me, and they have additions to using the product to make it comfortable and bearable to use. :biggrin:

I just bought a set of combo wrenches that were made in India, they were 1/4 the price as Chinese made ones. Both look very sturdy, until I almost snapped it without much weight being on it

Giles, now I am scared, what brand was the vise?!?!?!? :ashamed:

KennyV, yeah that is a good point, but the thing is, the companies want QUANTITY. The working conditions in some overseas countries can be brutal. What worker who works for minimal wage and bad working conditions is going to put out a good product? Also there are many companies that completely copy cars! Counterfeiting to the max :thumbdown: I found a few YouTube links: Fake Rolls Royce Chinese copy Rolls Royce Phantom with Rolls Royce / Geely adverts - YouTube
BMW goes to war against Chinese carmaker - part 1/2 - YouTube

motorrefurb said:

.... the thing is, the companies want QUANTITY.
...The working conditions in some overseas countries can be brutal.

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If only that were true...
We want quality... you and me.
The companies that are importing the junk, know exactally what they are importing. They get samples of everything before they order a container load. The importer makes the decision as to what they get.
There are high quality manufacturers in China, the same as anywhere... but right now te bulk of the stuff you will find on the 'bargain" shelves in the retailers is going to be Junk... because the companies ordering it do Not care about quality... When we consumers, Stop buying the junk... they will start importing a better quality.

As for the working conditions,... I'm sure you have read about and possibly heard from friends & family, generations ago, in this country we had a surplus of laborers in the large cities... we had similar sweatshop working 12 & 14 hours a day... If you wanted to have a job, you did what was necessary....That's where the unions got a big boost... and did a lot to improve working conditions...

China & India are now experiencing an industrial revolution of sorts... They will have to eventually get it worked out. Right now they have the largest work force on the planet, and they are just beginning to get that rolling... and they are more than able to provide any quantity and Any Quality that is ordered..

And more In Line with the original Post... "American Made" it's true that much of the consumer goods we have, is either made complete or as components, FOR our American companies... But our American companies dictate the quality... and We get what They order... in some cases it is junk... but that's not because the Original manufacturer is only capable of making junk...

There have been many, trusted brand names that have allowed their reputation to be tarnished, simply because someone in the company felt it was excusable to short quality... Or other companies Bought the rights to the 'Name'... and started distributing inferior stuff that Looked like it might fool someone... There may be a few counterfeit items slip through... but the known junk, that we are exposed to, is not by accident... it's deliberate... and as we buy it, it will be produced , and imported,... when someone complains, they get the same excuse..'it's the other guy that can't make it correct.'.. When the truth is ... the other guy is making it exactly As Ordered... :smile:KennyV

I can tell you right now I want QUALITY but they give me QUANTITY......

I am saying, stuff made overseas for me has always been worse than domestic products, might just be me...

Also, my main reason for this thread is to spread importance of jobs here. There is a quote somewhere that went somewhere along the lines of, "A dollar spent in our country is a dollar kept in our country." It probably completely differs from my remembrance of it :tongue: But I think you get the point. If we spend a dollar inside our country, it stays here, instead of us emptying our money into foreign countries hands, and it doesn't come back... :frown: Someone knows the quote right? :confused2:

Something I have thought about for many years--
In 1977, I bought a Yamaha 750 triple motorcycle. To the best of my memory, I paid $2,100. I bought the first one my local dealer received (new model). Before buying, he stated that if I didn't buy this one, the price on the next one shipped would be $200.00 more:frown:
I asked why and he stated "import taxes will be higher":thumbdown:
Now--with this being said, How much import tax was there on an automobile that cost many time this price?????
So, what did Japan do????? Over time many foreign manufacturers moved their manufacturing to America.
Was it to eliminate much of the tax money they were paying to our government?????
Of course the bright side is that it created American jobs.
Was that the right thing for our government to allow????????

Giles, that was exactly why the Japanese did it. To avoid import taxes. And they did it at a time when individual states were competing for manufacturing plants to come to their state. So they enticed them by giving them a break on taxes even more. Something the Big Three couldn't take advantage of except for one Saturn plant, which was closed by the demise of Saturn. And just because something is made in America doesn't mean that it's all good for America. Toyota and Hyundai are trying to give the impression that they are some sort of saviors by manufacturing here in the U.S.in TV commercials. Right.

But back to the original point. It's been my experience that not all Chinese made stuff is junk. I have a Troybilt split boom with a 4 cycle Chinese motor, and it has run better than anything 2 stroke I've ever owned in it's class. Sure, I'd like nothing better to only buy American. But I'd rather us be in the situation where we didn't need to worry about where something is made. We need stuff from over seas. But we also need to provide stuff to them as well. Balance of trade. Buy and sell. We've only been buying lately. That needs to change.


Rant over.

China has the favorable balance of trade over any other country, which is extremely smart of them.

Kia commercials say made in the US, but I guarantee 99% of manufacturing and components are done overseas. They probably have the final badge placed on it here and call it American :ashamed:

Although I am a fan of Chrysler they have been funding car companies overseas. They probably have no other choice because they are pretty much bankrupt... :frown:

Let me know if anyone has Chinese or Indian made drill bits that they can regularly drill through steal without breaking them or dulling them down to a stump. I had to scour the flea markets and yard sales for older quality made bits to get a decent set that are hardened enough to drill through anything but soft wood and plastic.

I need to know about Giles' bench vise, I don't mine breaking :biggrin:

The vice that I bought didn't have a name or number. It only had "CHINA" cast on the bottom of the base.:frown:
That is a good indication of a tool's quality.---If it doesn't have a name or number, it is most likely of poor qualiy:thumbdown:

Ok phew ................

I have Ridgid yoke vice and Wilton bench vice but not sure where these are made. Seem to be decent though.

jenkinsph said:

I have Ridgid yoke vice and Wilton bench vice but not sure where these are made. Seem to be decent though.

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Ridgid--a subsidiary of Emerson Electric, St. Louis, MO.

Wilton -- Palatine, Ill.

Both those should last you a very long time.:thumbsup:

BTW, I (knowingly) bought a Chinese made vise at a local vendor for a job I had on a remote site. I was banging a piece of sheet metal into shape, and a piece of BODY

FILLER fell off the side of the casting of the vise!:laughing:

Yoke vice is the one I wanted, but I was on a budget at the time, so I went with the Chinese Irwin vise.......

The yoke vise is a Ridgid #25 4" capacity, I put these on my plumbing trucks to work with up to 4" pvc or steel pipe. The jaws hold the pipe securely with little pressure needed on the screw handle.

I mounted the vise on one side and a bracket to tail the pipe on the other side of the truck.

Now that your telling me about your good vises, I should get a better one :ashamed:

Also, that truck is really nice! Very clean and big, its like a tool chest truck! :thumbsup:

Thanks, and come to think about it mostly American made too. I built this truck up in '98 when the new F550's came out. The body has about 110 drawers plus some large cabinets for bulk storage. Powdercoated tubular frame and Craftsman (Waterloo) tool boxes, plan on repainting this winter if I have the time. Here's a picture from the front.

Nice rig.... :smile:KennyV

I have been shopping for gas logs. Yesterday, I went to a BB store and thought I had found the perfect log set for my needs.
Since I have had three different sets of Emberglow brand gas logs, that were American made, I looked to see where these were made. All I could find was a distributors address:frown: I was loaded the box on the cart to check the bottom of container box. That's when I saw on the front of the box-- Made In CHINA. The print was so tiny, I could barely make it out--- 1/16" to 1/8" tall letters
Left them on the floor and left the store
This should be illegal:thumbdown:

I think the boxes of items should be printed with a HUGE flag of the country of origin and the box is the colors, it will get people thinking.....

motorrefurb said:

I think the boxes of items should be printed with a HUGE flag of the country of origin and the box is the colors, it will get people thinking.....

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Yes, I agree, but it is a shame that most American made products will only have a small american flag on their boxes
That's something I have never understood.
But I am sure you are in agreement that the vast majority of consumers never look and simply don't care:frown:
Some time back, there was a similar discussion criticizing China products, on another web site that I was following. There was this ONE poster that was praising China products in response to nearly every post:thumbdown:
Finally a brave poster challenged him by making a statement------
"You evidently fit one of these catagories---You are Chinese or you are selling their products" There was no response to his statement:thumbsup:

motorrefurb said:

I think the boxes of items should be printed with a HUGE flag of the country of origin and the box is the colors, it will get people thinking.....

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Well, even if it gets SOME people thinking about the state our country is in, it might be an improvement..:ashamed:

Back when I was making my living with my tools the only tools I would buy was Snap-on because they were the best and a broken tool was no good when you needed it. When you have a warranty and a tool is broken what good is the warranty so Snap-on was the only tools I could afford because they wouldn't break.

reynoldston said:

Back when I was making my living with my tools the only tools I would buy was Snap-on because they were the best and a broken tool was no good when you needed it. When you have a warranty and a tool is broken what good is the warranty so Snap-on was the only tools I could afford because they wouldn't break.

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A warranty is only as good as the company backing it:thumbsup:
Back in the day when I was a certified auto mechanic, Nearly all my tools were Snap-On. I had a few Mack, Proto, Cornwell--all of which had a very good warranty, but not as good as Snap-On:thumbsup:
I still have and use these tools almost daily.
I have a few Craftsman tools of which I am not very found. Like the 1/2" ratchet that was defective when new:thumbdown:--I received it as a gift and exchanged it for a new one--Quality Control:frown:
Also when purchasing a tool, observe how it is constructed. Take for instance--a cheaper sochet where the bolt or nut head will travel the full length of the socket, making it difficult to start a nut with the socket:frown:
These "punched out" sockets are cheaper to make and are weaker then a quality one:thumbdown:
I am not knocking Craftsman and other American made tools--they have their market-- But not my first choice.:thumbsup: I have some of them in my vehicles for emergency use:laughing:

Back in the day, I was partial to S-K.

Sammy the Red said:

Back in the day, I was partial to S-K.

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OOPS---sorry I failed to mention S-K because I have many. Another QUALITY tool brand:thumbsup:

Giles,

I put in alot of log sets for my customers and have had good success with Hargrove Select looks like sprit oak. You should look for some of these to see how you like them. Very good detail and appearance.

I'm just sorry that this subject has to be talked about at all....It does, but heck. We used to lead the world, which lead to our being the rich country with the consumers, which lead to consumers wanting to keep their money so looked for cheap, which lead to oriental "gentlemen" clambering to manufacture anything we wanted "vewy vewy cheeeppp" which lead to our becoming a poor country with a bad economy, which lead to our manufacturers having to go over to the Chinese to be able to compete and survive............which lead to our having to have a discussion about american made over foreign made.

just wish it wasn't so..........

I don't think the majority of consumers want cheap stuff at a cheap price:thumbsup:
I believe GREED from manufacturers have killed this country.
Like, for instance, you have a profitable company manufacturing a quality product using American workers in America. You discover you can have the same???? product manufactured in a foreign country and greatly increase your profit:thumbsup::thumbsup:, after all, you have a trusted--well known name:thumbsup:
You discover your product doesn't need five screws or does it need to be manufactured with that "thick" metal:frown: You see more GREEN in your pocket:thumbsup::thumbsup:
Consumers still buy the inferior product and never notice
Our great leaders of this country could have stopped, or slowed down, this practice before it was too late, if they had been smart enough:frown:
The leaders of this country may not have directly caused this decline (disappearance) of American made products--but they did little to contain it
What is really scary is--If we go to a full-scale war, who is going to manufacture our defense equipment ????

Giles said:

What is really scary is--If we go to a full-scale war, who is going to manufacture our defense equipment ????

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A huge problem and concern for all of us here, we are in bad shape and without correcting the problem now we will surely loose.

reynoldston said:

Back when I was making my living with my tools the only tools I would buy was Snap-on because they were the best and a broken tool was no good when you needed it. When you have a warranty and a tool is broken what good is the warranty so Snap-on was the only tools I could afford because they wouldn't break.

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I have a rather large inventory of Snap-on and MATCO tools. I always wince when I buy something new in their product line, and almost always smile when I use it, even 30+ years later.:biggrin: I usually don't confuse a low price with necessarily being a good value, especially when it comes to something I really care about.:wink:
I had an experience with a set of Harbor Freightend wrenches, made in India, about 23 years ago that drove the lesson home. I was working on one of two boats we shipped to the Valdez oil spill, putting in a new fuel filter on an engine. The jaws of the open end spread, dropping all the cheap chrome plating into the newly cleaned assembly.:thumbdown:

That was the last time I ever conciously chose to try out something that had a "suggested retail price" printed on the packaging..:laughing:

Later in the same afternoon, after I'd settled down, drank about 15 beers and had a half bucket of Colonel Sanders' original recipe, the whole set of wrenches went in to Lake Union, slowly, tossed one by one over my shoulder..:thumbsup:

UH OH! I just got Indian made combination wrenches....... probably made by the same company... $15 for a set that would be $100 if it was better quality........

And I'm pretty sure we make our own war weapons.... if we don't then yes we are in trouble!

One company I love is TURFCO mfg. all made in the u.s. lawn care equipment for contractors and golf courses.

The global economy seems to be forcing us to change the way we look at things because it's changing the way things are getting done. Don't get me wrong here. I consider myself to be as patriotic as the next guy. I was in a store the other day and went out of my way to find a product that had Made in the U.S.A. printed on it. Half an hour later, I found one! Not only made in the U.S., but made in my home state to boot! But it wasn't anything I needed.

I worked in an all makes motorcycle repair shop this last summer. We had a customer order up a new set of tires for his American branded motorcycle, and he paid extra to get tires that had the motorcycle brand name and Made in the U.S.A. stamped on the sidewall. I didn't have the heart to tell him that when I got the old tire off of the rims, they had "Made in Italy" stamped on the inside where you couldn't see it until you had the tire off the rim.

I live a stone's throw away from the John Deere Corporate Headquarters. Can't think of too many things more American than a John Deere tractor. Reports from them are in our local papers all the time. They enjoyed record profits in the last quarter! Woo hoo, good for us. Then the next story you read is how they're building factories in Russia, China and India. Again, woo hoo, good for us.

Each of the mowers I own have Made In The U.S.A. molded onto the engine. They're manufactured in Swensonville, NC. The brand is Honda. This is a map of Honda facilities in the U.S.
http://corporate.honda.com/america/2011 HIA Brochure Map_FINAL.pdf

I just copied these excerpts from the Honda Worldwide page;

"Honda manufactures approximately 500 thousand lawnmowers per year in the United States, France, Australia, China and Italy*, and supplies them to Australia and other countries in addition to the two largest markets: North America and Europe. Local production began at an early stage, starting in the United States in 1984 and in France in 1986, in accordance with our policy of producing products where they are in demand. We currently also conduct research and development locally. The lawnmowers sold in Japan are produced in the United States and France."

"Honda annually provides approximately five million general-purpose engines, which are manufactured in six countries, to 86 countries around the world as the power source for various machines used in construction, industry, agriculture, home gardening and other applications such as generators, tillers and lawn mowers, as well as various handheld devices including hedge trimmers."

"Honda produces approximately 50 thousand snow throwers in Japan and the United States, supplying them to markets in Japan, North America and Europe."

I suppose there's probably folks in Japan who wish they could find a mower made in Japan. I know a few years ago I tried to get some information about a Japanese made motorcycle from a Japanese forum specific to that model. I contacted the forum's administrator first to ask if I could. I think something got lost in the translation, as his message back sad he "challenged" me to go ahead and post, but he gave me the O.K. Turns out I p.o.ed a fair number of the forum members, some of whom said they were tired of seeing the English language! Seems when I look at pictures of Japan, many signs are in both Japanese and English, similar to what I'm seeing around where I live with both English and Spanish.

Yeah, I sure wish everything I bought was made in the U.S.A., but the definition of what that is seems to be getting kind of blurry.

bwdbrn1,

You bring up some good points. Do you feel we should be more active or passive regarding the loss of control over our manufacturing? I would like to see us reclaim some of the lost ground.

I'd love to see our control of manufacturing return, but here's a reality I've witnessed, and I'm sure others in other parts of the country have better stories they could share. I live in Rock Island, IL and I'm old enough to remember when the area here referred to itself as the "Agricultural Equipment Capitol of the World". I haven't heard that phrase since I don't know when. Rock Island is right on the Mississippi river across from Davenport, IA. Time was, there is a stretch of road here on the Illinois side, you could start at one end, drive to the other, and along the way pass factories of J.I.Case, the Farmall tractor, John Deere Plow and Planter, International Harvester's combine works, and John Deere's combine works, just to name some. Now the Case plant is a freight warehouse. The Farmall plant is gone with only a few buildings left. John Deere still manufactures planters and hydraulics and the combine works has been featured on the History Channel's mega factory series, but the IH combine works is an empty lot that stretches out for acres and they're trying to develop it into something else. In downtown Moline, IL, where many manufacturing facilities used to be, there are "trendy" little shops selling concrete statues, children's books and overpriced coffee. John Deere once had huge foundries on both the Illinois and Iowa side of the river here. They both sit empty because John Deere came up with a more profitable source of the materials they produced. Caterpillar is another brand that has roots in my area, but they're constantly moving and changing things.

I'm also old enough to remember driving past the front gate of the Farmall plant and seeing the workers huddled around burn barrels to keep warm while sitting on their picket line on strike. Not long after that, they got a new contract and there was a building blitz brought on by a huge contract from China for agricultrual tractors. Their shipping area was filled to capacity with shinny red tractors waiting to be hauled off. Wasn't too long after those shipping lots were empty that Case bought out IH, came and took what they wanted from the factory and closed the doors. Now one of the largest employers in the area is the Rock Island Arsenal located on an island in the river between Illinois and Iowa, but every time there's a government fiscal re-alignment, they talk about cutbacks and closures there. As another point of interest, if you look at that Honda facilities in the U.S. map I linked in my earlier post, you'll see they have a parts distribution center in Davenport, IA. That started out in a small building next to what used to be the J.I.Case factory in Rock Island I mentioned. They out grew it and built the huge building they occupy now, and employ a lot more people as well.

Popular past time around these parts now is bashing government employees for the wages and benefits they get, but back in the day, all the factory workers around here got far better pay and benefits than any body else. Nobody bashed them, they set the standard for the rest of the community. So, now the factories are gone, taking the jobs with them, and the governments are crying that they're broke because they can't afford what they're paying their employees. The City of Moline is considering letting 12 firefighter/paramedics go and privatizing the ambulance service. If it gets passed, there will be no limit to municipal lay offs here, and the jobs will go to employment services. Good for a city's budget, I suppose, but what of the workers that lost their jobs who are also consumers? Their ability to buy anything, where made in America or Tim-Buck-To will be affected.

I was recently talking to my local Honda Power Equipment dealer. He owns the business, which was started years ago by his father, back in the day when they sold only "American" made lawn care equipment in their shop. He has seen the quality of equipment from Honda change over the years and knows first hand that Honda has taken to outsourcing it's products from their Japanese facilities, just as American companies have done. Like Honda says on their world page that I posted before, "in accordance with our policy of producing products where they are in demand". Thus, we have Honda factories here in the U.S. and I'm guessing this is the same reason John Deere is building factories in other countries. They are building so that they may produce products where they are in demand.

Good for us that John Deere is building overseas because it solidifies their bottom line, and they are controlling their manufacturing base. But it isn't brining manufacturing and jobs to our area, and honestly doesn't guarantee that the factories they have here will remain open. If they find a cheaper way to produce what they do here, they'll move them, I'm sure. So is it necessarily bad that Honda, or other foreign companies, are building here? I have to say we'd probably jump for joy here in Rock Island if Honda were to come along and say they wanted to build a manufacturing plant on the empty lot where Farmall tractors were once built. I would venture to say that zoning ordinances and building permits would be issued faster than you can say Made in the U.S.A. Mitsubishi builds cars in Normal, IL, a couple of hours from me, and remember that the State of Illinois was absolutely giddy when they did. (I wonder if our governor back then got a cut some how? Oh well, he's in jail now and our last one is headed that way too, but that's another topic for another forum.)

So, in my limited example, John Deere, an American company, is building overseas. Good for their stock holders but the manufacturing jobs aren't here in the U.S. Various Asian and European companies are building factories here, which they control, but employ American workers. Yes, I'd love to see a re-establishment of control of manufacturing, but how can this happen? Seems when somebody farts in a foreign bank, it's smelled on Wall Street, and it what was ate to cause the gas gets speculated about on CNN every hour on the hour.

Just because something says "Made in the U.S.A." doesn't mean it's American. And we're talking about two different problems in this thread, and I'd like to straighten it out.

First, when a foreign company sets up a plant here inside our borders, it does so to avoid import taxes. And when individual states compete to lure these companies, they give huge tax breaks, and sometimes even promise to buy their product over a truly American product. So, when Toyota and Kia run TV ads that spout about how they are serving America oh so well, they're not so right about that. About the only thing they do for us is hire Americans. The profits still leave the country, and don't help the balance of trade in our favor.

The other, and totally different problem is where American companies move manufacturing out of the U.S.. I believe that they are starting to see the light on this and realize that they are hurting America by this practice. I've heard news stories about one or two small companies returning manufacturing back here, and even large companies like AT&T plan a return of jobs to our shores. It's things like this that give me hope.

You're very right on that issue. Made in U.S.A. does not mean necessarily mean American. But again, the lines have become so blurry on that issue that it seems it's practically impossible for any county to be able to make the claim of "Made in _____".

Then you add the fact that some foreign companies obviously retain their corporate leadership in their home country, but divisional headquarters are scattered around the globe.

To me, Made in America is more than just matter of national pride, it's an indication of quality of materials and workmanship, and with that a sense of ownership.

I suppose the same can be said of any American company that is building outside the country in avoiding tariffs and fees of the particular country they're moving to, not to mention the cost of shipping a product from here to there. Yes, there is a re-thinking of "outsourcing" and companies are now considering "insourcing". That it was mentioned on public radio the other day indicates a positive trend.

I am even learning a lot here, lets hear some more stories :thumbsup:

Here's some information I missed a couple of months ago. Having talked about John Deere and Honda in my posts, seems they've teamed up in the power equipment field.

U.S. Deere dealers to sell Honda products

Along the lines of Made in America, how about also discussing Customer Service in America. I've been to the John Deere dealership mentioned in that article, and I can't say that I will be expecting the same kind of service from them that I have gotten from the Honda Power Equipment dealer that's been selling Honda products since 1979.

bwdbrn1 said:

Here's some information I missed a couple of months ago. Having talked about John Deere and Honda in my posts, seems they've teamed up in the power equipment field.

U.S. Deere dealers to sell Honda products

Along the lines of Made in America, how about also discussing Customer Service in America. I've been to the John Deere dealership mentioned in that article, and I can't say that I will be expecting the same kind of service from them that I have gotten from the Honda Power Equipment dealer that's been selling Honda products since 1979.

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Just one more opinion- anyone remember when Dell brought back its customer service to the U.S. in 2004 after a deluge of frustrated customers complained about dealing with foreign CSR's who could not communicate with American customers and only recited from scripted corporate response notebooks? Have any other U.S. manufacturers learned from similar gaffs?
I too would like to see manufacturing move back to the 'good ole USA' and help put Americans back to work. I am old school in that I have always repaired and maintained my old American built products; Toro and Deere lawn equipment especially. My hobby is restoring Deere lawn and garden tractors- they are very well built and will certainly last longer than anything from the BB stores today.

Maybe I am getting old and out of touch/date but I remember when you could fix stuff yourself and did so. Learned alot along the way too but I can see where it is cheaper to build it it doesn't have to be repairable. There is some give and take in the cost of serviceable vs. non servicable goods.

Funny though,I went to all the hardware stores in my small town and none of them had a good pitchfork but all of them had the cheesy plastic scoopers. One of the owners who I know well said that most people don't know the difference and wouldn't pay the price for the better tools. He offered to order one for me but I would rather see it first.

We're not getting old:confused2:, well, maybe you are:tongue: , but you can still fix stuff. I guess that is, if it's made to be fixable. Something that seems to have really changed is the attitude of the consumer. Check this video out.
Ariens 1971 Sno-Thro - YouTube
Now there's an example, not only of a great machine, but listen to the guy talk about it and what he and his father have done to it over the years. I don't think we see much of that sort of pride in ownership anymore.

It might be like beating a dead horse, but again, talking to the local Honda dealer about Deere selling Honda, he didn't seem too concerned about his position. I think he has a pretty solid base of customers since he's been selling Honda since 1979. What he noted was how the new customers over time have changed. He said the new customers don't care about the quality of the machine, don't know how it works, and don't want to know. Fix them themselves, HA!

Along those lines, the dealers have changed. I have long been able to walk into my Toro dealer and say I need a carb kit for the old Toro S200 series of snow thrower. The old guy behind the counter would go off and get it off the shelf in the back without hesitation. Recently the new person there asked me if I knew the model number? Sheesh, even when I came back later with it, she had to look it up on two different computers to find it.

I ask my Honda dealer about an HR214, a mower made back in the 80s, and he can tell me anything I want to know. Now that John Deere dealer that starts selling Hondas next year isn't going to know what an HR214 is until he sees one o his computer screen, and he's going to wish it was painted green just so he can feel comfortable about it, even though Deere's mowers and such have been outsourced for quite a long time and been nothing more than somebody elses mower with green paint. Plus he's not going to have the stock pile of usable "vintage" parts in the back room from having worked on these things for years.

I worked on that same kind of snow blower, but I guess the owner of the one I worked on must have not liked it because parts were torn off (you can tell he was trying to modify it with pliers, etc.)

Also, not sure if anyone ever saw this, but it scares me :ashamed: Banned US Commercial about the national debt - YouTube

borrowed from bwdbrn1 "Along those lines, the dealers have changed. I have long been able to walk into my Toro dealer and say I need a carb kit for the old Toro S200 series of snow thrower. The old guy behind the counter would go off and get it off the shelf in the back without hesitation. Recently the new person there asked me if I knew the model number? Sheesh, even when I came back later with it, she had to look it up on two different computers to find it."

The problem with parts lookup is now everything is electronic and you cannot look up parts without putting in a model number and then sometimes that is not enough. Like pulling up a briggs engine and you need a carb kit and find out that they used 13 different carbs and 6 carb kits and the only way to get the right kit is to get the numbers off the carb if they are even there. Sometimes they are not, Walbro carb LMT without the LMT number on the carb.

I used to be able to pull a carb kit off the shelf to fix an engine but not anymore.

ILENGINE said:

The problem with parts lookup is now everything is electronic and you cannot look up parts without putting in a model number and then sometimes that is not enough. Like pulling up a briggs engine and you need a carb kit and find out that they used 13 different carbs and 6 carb kits and the only way to get the right kit is to get the numbers off the carb if they are even there. Sometimes they are not, Walbro carb LMT without the LMT number on the carb.

I used to be able to pull a carb kit off the shelf to fix an engine but not anymore.

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Thanks for the pointing that out ILEngine. I didn't think that possibility through well enough before using it as an example.:ashamed:

That was a very scary scenario in that commercial motorrefurb.

See, the problem with our debt to others, mostly China is bad in the way that we lose our money, but then they gain the money.... Imagine that....... they would be the richest nation in the world by a longshot, and I find that a problem

I remember my Dad telling me the company he started working for had to switch to buying their product from china. The US manufacturer was making such poor quality stuff the y had to reject more than half of it so they started paying more to import from china and no longer have issues. Unfortunately to compete the US company tried to do it on cost alone which doesn't work so well.
My Dad took it really well suprisingly. US execs killing US products and everyone playing along.

I watched an episode of "The Sharks", the show were folks with ideas for business start ups or expansion make a pitch to four successful entrpenuers. A fellow came to them with an idea to manfacture an accessory rack for trucks. His goal was to make it in his home state that had been hit hard by unemployment, and made a really emotional appeal to them to make it in the U.S.A. They were all for his product, but when it came down to the price point, they argued that making it abroad to keep cost of manufacture down would allow for expansion of a sales and distribution network here, thus opening the possibility to manufacture here as demand for product grew. He refused, and the sharks passed on giving him the money he was seeking. Our economy has become so globalized, and economists will argue that manufacturing is no longer our forte. Apple computer is one example often held up. The hard ware is made overseas, yet the company employs thousands in product developement, sales and distribution. Still, it was sad when shopping with the wife the other night in an otherwise upscale store for our area that the only product I coul find made in the U.S. was Fiesta dinnerware.

bwdbrn1 I saw that episode! It was terrible how the investors were, they gave a guy who drew cats $25,000 and they gave that guy $0 ............ Shows what Americans like spending money on... smh :ashamed:

Makes you wish you had kept every napkin you ever doodled on, doesn't it? We used to have a guy on a local station called Capt. Ernie. He showed kids cartoons and one of his features was to send in a number, and he'd scetch a face out of it. According to the sharks, the ol' Captn. Would have been a millionare by now. But yes, the guy nearly had me in tears as I watched his plea.

I really had no idea what you were saying until I looked back a few posts lol my mistake :laughing: But yes I think I did have a tear or two and a stomach ache at that........

Guess this is one reason I like working on the vintage stuff.