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24HP V-Twin B&S - Fault driving me CRAZY!

#1

N

Neo7

Hi Gents,

Here's one to test your fault diagnostic skills on lol!

I have a B&S 24HP V-Twin (Model 445677 - Family 6BSXS.7242VF) Which is a horizontal V with dual barrel carburetor.
It start Ok and revs up Ok (a little hesitant) but when idles the anti-stall is always blipping the throttle every second or two. But worst of all it's randomly (every 5 to 20 seconds) missing and backfiring through the exhaust and inlet ports.
In desperation I've checked all of the following is Ok...
  • Spark plugs are OK --- But both were sooty (black)
  • Both ignition coils OK --- Swapped out with known working ones
  • Stays running on either cylinder --- with one HT lead earthed down
  • Ground Wire Harness (with two diodes) --- Disconnected but no effect
  • Flywheel Shear Key --- Checked in good shape
  • Carburetor Solenoid --- Removed and confirmed working
  • Carburetor stripped down. Was dead clean inside but still blew out jet with airline.
  • Cylinder Compressions are 160/165 PSI
  • Inlet and Exhaust Pushrods checked --- all 4 dead straight
  • Valve Clearance set ---- as per spec.

Any thoughts or additional things to check guys?

Thanks for your help.
Neo


npwGEEo.jpg


#2

Boobala

Boobala

Check that plastic intake manifold for hairline cracks or loose mounting ........

FORGOT : check your fuel system for water contamination .........


#3

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Yuo mentioned carb stripped down and blew jets out.... That 2 barrel carb is way different than a 1 barrel. They have more stuff to take out..... Did you take out a small gasket made with holes in it and a figure 8 looking gasket... The small gasket with the holes is hidden and is a pain to get to .... You mentioned plugs are black and sooty... That means you are running rich.....


#4

N

Neo7

Thanks Guys.

Ok I'm going to have another stab at that manifold and that Carb today ... I know the figure 8 gasket. Is the "small gasket made with holes" item 150 in this parts diagram?

Carb 2018-09-26_063721.jpg


#5

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

No 150 is the that gets plugged up and causes it to run rich...... 1124 is the double figure 8 gasket...... Also the jets in your carb are L and R and have to be put back in exactly as taken out cause that will cause hunting .......

Also the O-rings on the jets get worn out and causes issues too......... You cannot the O-rings from Briggs at all.....They come with new Jets....

If your O rings are worn the jets won't stay in place.................

Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!


#6

Boobala

Boobala

Brought out some vids might be of interest on your carb issue .............

http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/briggs_intek_v-twin_carb.asp

http://outdoorpowerinfo.com/repairs/briggs_intek_v-twin_carb2.asp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPWul3T0fRE

https://ruclip.com/video/I_k1ystbSW...und-on-briggs-and-stratton-intec-engines.html


#7

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boo Boo..... Taryl has a good one I saw this morning I'll have to find it again... I wasn't finished watching it..... We had to go somewhere real quick and the power went out in our area, soooo the PC was off when I got home...


#8

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

I found it here is the link ~!~!

https://youtu.be/emsafzhGLC0


#9

N

Neo7

Ok Engine is running sweet now .... "What was it" I hear you say!..... Well on the backfiring was plain and simple ... My Stupidity :laughing: ... it was just the Spark Plugs!! ... Like how simple is that! .... Kept assuming they were Ok just because they were firing.
The Idle hunting.... Two of the 4 mounting bolts that go through the 4 corners of the carb were quite loose and the rectangular gasket must have been breathing. Also gave the carb another clean out as instructed.... Now she starts without choke ... Hasn't done that since I first fitted this engine.

Then when I put the cover back on it started running on one cylinder. Turned out one of the two diodes had failed. If you have a soldering iron they so easy to replace. B&S use IN4001 diodes which has to be the most common diode known to man lol! .... can be purchased from any Radio Shack type shop in the world.... I paid 76 cents for 4 diodes!

Anyway thanks for your help and ideas guys... Was so good to see my favorite mower running again :wink:


All the best.
Neo


#10

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Well good for you.......... Yep those diodes are cheap..... When I had my radio repair and sales shop at Tiger Truck stop on I-10 down here I used those numbered diodes a lot... I used to order them by the 500 bag from CEI in Ohio .02 cents a piece....

All they are is a reverse polarity diode.. Let current flow one way not the other way... I wish I had a dollar for every radio, car stereo and cb radio I changed those diodes in.....


#11

Ronno6

Ronno6

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
Also the jets in your carb are L and R and have to be put back in exactly as taken out cause that will cause hunting .......

Also the O-rings on the jets get worn out and causes issues too......... You cannot the O-rings from Briggs at all.....They come with new Jets....

If your O rings are worn the jets won't stay in place.................

Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!
Click to expand...

I gotta disagree with you on the correct jet installation,Boux.
There isn't enough difference in jet size to cause any running issues.....I orta know cuz I reversed mine B-4.
Only reason for different size jets is good ol' EPA....since the work load on the #2 cyl is less than the #1 due to "cylinder lag,"
the jet for the #2 is SLIGHTLY smaller so as to minimize emissions!!!
Do you believe that schittttt??

The O-rings are available from McMaster Carr. Like $6.00/100 or some trivial amount like that (didn't I send U some once upon a time?)

Anyway, tha's my story an' I'm a-stickin' to it!


#12

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Ronno6 said:
I gotta disagree with you on the correct jet installation,Boux.
There isn't enough difference in jet size to cause any running issues.....I orta know cuz I reversed mine B-4.
Only reason for different size jets is good ol' EPA....since the work load on the #2 cyl is less than the #1 due to "cylinder lag,"
the jet for the #2 is SLIGHTLY smaller so as to minimize emissions!!!
Do you believe that schittttt??

The O-rings are available from McMaster Carr. Like $6.00/100 or some trivial amount like that (didn't I send U some once upon a time?)

Anyway, tha's my story an' I'm a-stickin' to it!
Click to expand...

I never reversed any before, but according to Briggs the slightly larger jet is needed because that cylinder is farther away.

Yes you sent me some O=rings......

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!


#13

B

bertsmobile1

Ronno6 said:
I gotta disagree with you on the correct jet installation,Boux.
There isn't enough difference in jet size to cause any running issues.....I orta know cuz I reversed mine B-4.
Only reason for different size jets is good ol' EPA....since the work load on the #2 cyl is less than the #1 due to "cylinder lag,"
the jet for the #2 is SLIGHTLY smaller so as to minimize emissions!!!
Do you believe that schittttt??

The O-rings are available from McMaster Carr. Like $6.00/100 or some trivial amount like that (didn't I send U some once upon a time?)

Anyway, tha's my story an' I'm a-stickin' to it!
Click to expand...

Now because those O rings will come in a pack of 100 or more, do you still have the original pack with the numbers on it ?
Must have a dozen different assortments but none even near the correct size let alone being in a petrol proof rubber.


#14

Ronno6

Ronno6

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
I never reversed any before, but according to Briggs the slightly larger jet is needed because that cylinder is farther away.

Yes you sent me some O=rings......

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!
Click to expand...

These are the ones I purchased, and they work fine.
McMaster Carr # 9262K101

These are Buna-n, but Viton may work better.
I know that others have used a slightly different size as well.

As for the jet size differences, my info came from a Briggs & Stratton design engineer.
He said that "cylinder lag" is the phenomenon wherein the power requirement of the #2 cylinder is diminished
because it fires right after the #1 cyl which produces a greater percentage of the power.
This means that #1 needs a slightly richer mixture, and, given the same mixture in #2cyl, it would produce higher levels of unburnt hydrocarbons.
I mean... a MINUSCULE amount. But, NOTHING is too petty for the EPA....

BTW...gasket kits are so %@#)(&*% expensive these days due to the cost of materials that will stand up to ethanol......


#15

N

Neo7

OMG I think I spoke too soon.... Fitted then engine back in the mower last night. This morning I topped up the tank and started her up... Crazy but she wouldn't start as easy as yesterday.
Started mowing and after 10 mins pop, pop, pop!! :confused2: ... Shut off the throttle and lots of hunting at idle. So just playing around I turned the idle screw up/in to meet the throttle linkage. The hunting and popping both stopped but after 20 seconding the idle speed went high so I turned the screw back out again (not as far out as before) to a more reasonable idle speed and all came good.:cool:.. Continued to mow the law and still OK. :cool::cool:
I don't really understand how how carburetion can cause backfire :confused2: but one way or the other this is looking like a carburettor issue. So unless someone says "don't do it" I'm going to order one of those cheap copycat carb from China (comes with a gasket kit)... I know with motorbikes they're pretty good now days and I'm hoping it's the same with mowers too... Wish me luck!:thumbsup:


#16

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo did you watch the videos that Boo sent you and the other one ??


#17

N

Neo7

Yes ... My "holy" gasket was in great condition and the jets on on my emulsion tube were completely clear. On my emulsion tube the jets did not fall out and I did not attempt to remove them. Also spark plugs tips were running much lighter in colour yesterday.


#18

Boobala

Boobala

SEE MY LATEST POST on these carbs ......... Briggs Eng. Section ...

( 2 Barrel NIKKI CARB INFO )


#19

N

Neo7

Ok I can see there some great information in those videos. Problem is I taken this carb apart probably 4 or 5 times over the past few months and have cleaned all those jets and holes over that time. So maybe is an o-ring or a gasket which I will have to go and a big hunt for (here in Australia).... Alternatively I could spend AU47 and get a brand new carb with new gaskets, delivered! ... So is fixing the old carb really worth all the effort?


#20

B

bertsmobile1

Neo7 said:
Ok I can see there some great information in those videos. Problem is I taken this carb apart probably 4 or 5 times over the past few months and have cleaned all those jets and holes over that time. So maybe is an o-ring or a gasket which I will have to go and a big hunt for (here in Australia).... Alternatively I could spend AU47 and get a brand new carb with new gaskets, delivered! ... So is fixing the old carb really worth all the effort?
Click to expand...

Be very careful about buying cheap carbs off evilpay.
Check the vendors store or other items.
If they sell everything from condoms to skyrockets, then they are surplus vendors selling mostly reject defective products bought cheap as there is no such things as scrap in China unless it was bought from Simsmetal.
OTOH if most of what they sell is automotive / mower / garden products then it should be a good product.

I get all sorts of stuff come into the workshop where the owners have bough cheap parts off ebay that actually do not fit.
Emulsion tubes that are not drilled , main jets that are not drilled, main jets drilled the wrong size , needle jets with neoprene tips carbs with wrong jets, no idle circuit drillins and don't get me started on cube carbs & chainsaws.


#21

N

Neo7

OK .... New Carb fitted but the problem is still the same :frown: .... I think we are "barking up the wrong tree" any other thoughts what could be causing the random popping?
Also, yesterday I broke the drive belt an in my confusion I switched off the ignition and when the was at full RPM. When it had almost completely stopped there was a HUGE backfire (like a firecracker!) and flame flash on the starter motor side of the engine. Not sure exactly where the flash came from, but most likely the exhaust box :confused2:

Any thoughts gents.


#22

B

bertsmobile1

Put a run of masking tape around the flywheel so you can make fairly accurate marks on it.
Stick it on your arms first to denature the glue so it comes off easily.
Remove the plugs, check the valve lash then mark the start of lift , max lift , end of lift , TDC & BDC for each valve & cylinder.
Use 2 runs of tape , one for each cylinder then use the TDC marks to align the two pieces of tape .
The lines for each action should align, the space from start of lift to end of lift should also be the same for each valve & each cylinder.
To measure start & end of lift, you rotate the push rod between your fingers and take the start & end as the point where the push rod just can not be turned.

I think you will find the duration of the exhaust cam is shorter than the inlet and if too short it prevents all of the exhaust leaving the cylinder so when inlet opens there is still pressure in the cylinder which blows back through the carb.
At high idle the volume of the fresh charge is quite small till you put a load on the engine & the governor allows the throttle to open up wide .
In this situation there is not enough time for the exhaust to fully evacuate the cylinder.

Animals dead in the exhaust system will do the same thing,
We had a muffler that just would not flow so the customer replaced it.
Cut it open & found the remains of around 2' of whip snake in there, oddly it did not stink like dead snake usually does.

Sounds complicated, but you can do both valves on both cylinders in less time that it takes to find somewhere to fit a degree wheel and pointer.
Use a bit of dowel to measure TDC & BDC and mark the position of both cylinders.
If it is not the same L to R then one rod is bent.


#23

N

Neo7

Wow Bert, Thanks for this. Will get around to doing it all in a week or so.... It will be a great learning experience if nothing else :laughing:


#24

B

bertsmobile1

FWIW I look at the flywheel rotate a few times & find a place where I can use the side of a coil to mark the tape.
I use Stanley knife blade if I can, laid against the coil then run a 2B clutch pencil line along the edge of the blade.
Varies a bit from one engine to another.
When I kicked off I used to measure cams using a timing disc as one would do on a motorcycle engine.
Then found cam timing details almost impossible to find and when you did, you needed to reset the valve gap to specific sizes so all the numbers did was got confusing.
You can use the flywheel teeth to sort of get numbers ( second ) try .
Rang a friend who marked the flywheels with a paint pen but that just got too confusing with a twin & the pen marks were a bit coarse, then came up with masking tape.
The auto stuff is really good cause it pulls off really well but it s a bit thick so does not pass under the magneto legs particularly well, but the cheap K-mart stuff does.

AFAI can work out all of the common engines use the same cam profile inlet & exhaust.
Kohler actually use the same cam some of the moe qualified techs might correct this or provide lift & dwell numbers but these engines are really basic so just laying the tapes side by side is generally good enough.

All the posters who list as B & S Master Techs should know or be able to get numbers but I found numbers just clouded the matter.


#25

N

Neo7

Hi Bertsmobile1,

So firstly I compared how far all 4 valves get depressed and they are all pretty much the same 17mm.

I couldn't get narrow masking tape so I did things a bit differently. Using the inside sharp edge (of metal U) of the Left Coil I used a fine line pen to mark 6 points on the Flywheel TDC, BDC ExhOpens, ExhCloses, InlOpens, InlCloses. Then I compared that with the Right Coil, same measurement and the same point on the Right coil. Any differences I measured with a straight edge ruler ....

  • Left-TDC compared to Right-TDC - Exactly the same
  • Left-BDC compared to Right-BDC - Exactly the same
  • Left-ExhOpens compared to Right-ExhOpens - Exactly the same
  • Left-ExhCloses compared to Right-ExhCloses - Right Closes Earlier 25mm
  • Left-InlOpens compared to Right-InlOpens - Right Opens Later 31mm
  • Left-InlCloses compared to Right-InlCloses - Right Closes Later 13mm


From my reckoning this does not actually tell me which valves are out of time but it does prove that Left and Right Valves do have different timing points which I think means I need to replace the Camshaft?... Found this great Youtube Video ... you can skip the first 3 mins ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmbwImeiqaE

Let me know you thoughts guys?

All the best.
Neo


#26

Boobala

Boobala

If you've decided to replace the cam, that video by Taryl is great !

In case ya never saw Taryl & sons out of their wacky video garb....

Taryl_Fixes_All_no_costumes.5512fbc39b725 (Medium).jpg


#27

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Hey Neo welcome back Mon Ami ....... I am catching up on some cleaning in my house for Turkey Day and I decided to check on the forum...... Shut up Boo Boo LOL.....

Neo if your valves are acting like the ones in the video then yes it is a possibility that it's the same thing as in the video....

Take your plugs out and spin the engine by hand to confirm it about 10 times before you even think about splitting the engine apart .......

Most of us on here do watch Taryl and his crazy antics..... Too funny most of the time and then corny a lil of the times LOL......

Yes a worn cam does happen and the ACR's on the single cylinder series go out a lot of times.........

Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!


#28

sgkent

sgkent

don't know if anyone addressed this but shutting the ignition down at RPM fills the exhaust and muffler, as well as the air at the end of the muffler with a ready to ignite mixture of gas and air. All it needs is a spark of static, piece of glowing carbon etc to set it off. That is probably the flash you saw. I used to have an old ford falcon with a rusty old exhaust system (and generator, non locking column, & stick shift that allowed me to do this). I'd turn the key off for about 5 to 7 seconds when someone was tailgating, turn the key back on and the exhaust would send out a shower of carbon and rust flakes that guaranteed they would not tailgate. Sounded like a small cannon going off too when I'd do it. That was almost 50 years ago. I'd be afraid to do that on a modern car for fear of destroying some expensive sensor, computer, or the alternator.


#29

N

Neo7

Yes Taryl stuff looks good and the photo cleared up a few things too lol!... Thanks for that ;-)

This is 24HP engine (similar to all the other B&S V-twins) so I'm guessing this is a high lift cam which is technically more prone to wear?


#30

B

bertsmobile1

Neo7 said:
Hi Bertsmobile1,

So firstly I compared how far all 4 valves get depressed and they are all pretty much the same 17mm.

I couldn't get narrow masking tape so I did things a bit differently. Using the inside sharp edge (of metal U) of the Left Coil I used a fine line pen to mark 6 points on the Flywheel TDC, BDC ExhOpens, ExhCloses, InlOpens, InlCloses. Then I compared that with the Right Coil, same measurement and the same point on the Right coil. Any differences I measured with a straight edge ruler ....

  • Left-TDC compared to Right-TDC - Exactly the same
  • Left-BDC compared to Right-BDC - Exactly the same
  • Left-ExhOpens compared to Right-ExhOpens - Exactly the same
  • Left-ExhCloses compared to Right-ExhCloses - Right Closes Earlier 25mm
  • Left-InlOpens compared to Right-InlOpens - Right Opens Later 31mm
  • Left-InlCloses compared to Right-InlCloses - Right Closes Later 13mm


From my reckoning this does not actually tell me which valves are out of time but it does prove that Left and Right Valves do have different timing points which I think means I need to replace the Camshaft?... Found this great Youtube Video ... you can skip the first 3 mins ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmbwImeiqaE

Let me know you thoughts guys?

All the best.
Neo
Click to expand...

Good now we are getting somewhere.
The lift & duration should be the same on all 4 valves.
If the valve lash was very carefully set then it looks like right exhaust cam has significant wear.
Closing earlier will choke the cylinder at higher speeds cause all of the exhaust might not get out.
Also looks like the right inlet has also worn.
If it intentionally has a lag ( oft done with V twins to smooth out the running ) then one would expect the lag to be the same for both opening & closing.

Measure the circumference of the flywheel & convert your mm to deg then check with a Briggs dealer because the data is always given as deg from TDC.
I do not have access to Briggs cam details but it does look like you have a cam wear problem.

Double check the height of the valves from the floor of the rocker chamber, they all should be the same.
However if a guide has slipped then the valve would open latter & close earlier ( or visa versa ) .
There are a couple of Briggs master techs on here, Walt is particularly good.
The right exhaust cam is worn


#31

N

Neo7

sgkent said:
don't know if anyone addressed this but shutting the ignition down at RPM fills the exhaust and muffler, as well as the air at the end of the muffler with a ready to ignite mixture of gas and air. All it needs is a spark of static, piece of glowing carbon etc to set it off. That is probably the flash you saw.
Click to expand...
Ok ... so could that be a knock on effect of an Exhaust valve closing late?


sgkent said:
I used to have an old ford falcon with a rusty old exhaust system (and generator, non locking column, & stick shift that allowed me to do this). I'd turn the key off for about 5 to 7 seconds when someone was tailgating, turn the key back on and the exhaust would send out a shower of carbon and rust flakes that guaranteed they would not tailgate. Sounded like a small cannon going off too when I'd do it.
Click to expand...
Love this story :laughing:


#32

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Bert's quote............ Double check the height of the valves from the floor of the rocker chamber, they all should be the same.
However if a guide has slipped then the valve would open latter & close earlier ( or visa versa ) .
There are a couple of Briggs master techs on here, Walt is particularly good.
The right exhaust cam is worn..........

Yes that is something to be checked out also, A valve guide that has slipped, usually when that happens it bends a push rod...... But you have the cam already being shipped to you so before splitting the engine and installing the cam go ahead and pull the offending head off and check it........

Plus tard Mon Ami ~!~!


#33

N

Neo7

Ok ... I'd rather just pull the engine out (doesn't take long) and remove the crankcase cover ..... mainly because I've not ordered any head gaskets.
Is there any other way to check the valve guides without removing the head? .... Like putting the piston at TDC and pushing off the valve springs. Then checking the play (wobble) on each Valve stem?
Remembering the compression test was very good on both Cylinders. Wouldn't a slipped valve guides affect compression?


#34

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
Ok ... I'd rather just pull the engine out (doesn't take long) and remove the crankcase cover ..... mainly because I've not ordered any head gaskets.
Is there any other way to check the valve guides without removing the head? .... Like putting the piston at TDC and pushing off the valve springs. Then checking the play (wobble) on each Valve stem?
Remembering the compression test was very good on both Cylinders. Wouldn't a slipped valve guides affect compression?
Click to expand...

The only way a slipped guide will affect compression is if it not letting the valve open at all........


#35

N

Neo7

So can I check for slipped guides with the heads on in any way?


#36

N

Neo7

Ok I have taken a step back .... (Kinda got the feeling I was ordering parts without confirming they're required) and Have canceled my order with the supplier.
Now can someone please tell me how do I check the valve seat with or without pulling off the head?


#37

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
Ok I have taken a step back .... (Kinda got the feeling I was ordering parts without confirming they're required) and Have canceled my order with the supplier.
Now can someone please tell me how do I check the valve seat with or without pulling off the head?
Click to expand...

Well Mon Ami the only real way to check the valve guides are to pull the head off.... I will post a link to a video showing the correct way to determine if it is out of place ....

Stand by for a few ..........


#38

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Ok i found it Now you can watch the entire video are skip to the 18 minute mark..... I would watch the whole video....

https://youtu.be/Pl5vNccJwQs

Plus Tard Mon Ami ...... Hope this helps ............


#39

N

Neo7

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
Ok i found it Now you can watch the entire video are skip to the 18 minute mark..... I would watch the whole video....
https://youtu.be/Pl5vNccJwQs
Plus Tard Mon Ami ...... Hope this helps ............
Click to expand...
Ok thanks. Since my last post I've watched the video and I've also removed my valve springs. I did them one by one with the head still on, by feeding rope into the cylinders and gently bringing the piston up to keep the valves in place.

So from the compartment, comparing left to right cylinders, I can see both inlet and exhaust seats are the same height (L-Inlet to R-Inlet and L-Exhaust to R-Exhaust). And in comparison to the video I can see that if my valve seats have moved they've done so by only a very small amount and to exactly the same level left and right (I believe that would be very unlikely).

Also lining up with the peak of each cam lobe I measured the height of the rod to a straight line (steel rule) across the rocker cover mounting surface. I used vernier calipers and here's the results...

Left-ExhOpen - 19.1mm
Right-ExhOpen - 18.2mm
Left-InlOpen - 18.2mm
Right-InlOpen - 16.8

If the lobes are all supposed to have the same lift then that Right-Inlet is not good, so again it's looking like I'm going to leave the heads on and replace the cam?


Thanks
Neo


#40

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Might as well buy 2 head gaskets and lap the valves...... If you took the springs off while the head or heads were off then you gonna play hell getting the springs back on.......... Valves could be one more issue with backfiring.... I think you should lap the valves and reset them then>>>>>> put the heads back on and try it.... Stay away from throwing parts inside the engine..... Backfiring usually means that the valve train is the issue..... Whether it be a slipped guide a bad or dirty valve that needs to be lapped or a cam that's bad not moving the valves as they should be moving.... Or a bent push rod >>>>>>>>>

Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!


#41

N

Neo7

Spring are already back on as I did them one at a time.... The Rope through the sparkplug hole work well.

Hmmm you have me worried now about buying the cam. This issue has cost me far too much money (and time) from buying the wrong parts so I'm really keen to find it on this attempt. The full gasket kit takes a week to arrive and Laping the valves is a good idea (and good maintenance) but if it turns out to be the Cam thats another week wasted waiting for a 2nd lot of parts. :frown:

I'm trying to think this through.... Push rods are dead, dead straight, compression was very good and the same on both cylinders ... But do the cam lift measurements I made look suspicious?

All the best.
Neo


#42

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Yes you are right on being in a rush for your equipment..... Bert is pretty sure about those cam lift measurements sounds like one of them is off....

How much does a gasket set cost down there ??? I have a friend in Perth ~!~!


#43

B

bertsmobile1

Full set is around $ 80 after market and $ 120 genuine.
Just remember we are talking monopoly money here.
I cut copper head gaskets for a lot of engines cause & have a knibbler and the copper is worth $ 15 compared to a Briggs gasket at $ 22.
Works really well cause I can charge them out at $ 30 and from there on in I save 1/2 hour cleaning off paper gaskets when ever a head needs to come off.


#44

N

Neo7

Over here a crankcase set is for my engine is AU$45 (US$32.57) but a Full Gasket and Seals Set is AU$76 (US$55) .... So weighing this up I think the best thing to do is proceed with caution as you say. I'm going try and buy a Full Gasket set then while I'm waiting for it to arrive I'll lap the valves and remove/check the cam too.

Just one problem .... The Full Set I found came up as a "Similar Set" while searching the online store. So I actually need to confirm if this covers my engine (MODEL 445677, TYPE 0476E, CODE 0512155YG) OK?https://www.allmowerspares.com.au/genuine-briggs-stratton-gasket-set-engine-694012.html ... Can anyone help me confirm this?

Bert the copper gaskets sound like a great idea ... How thick does the copper sheet need to be?... and what type of nibbing tool do you use?


Many thanks.
Neo


#45

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
Over here a crankcase set is for my engine is AU$45 (US$32.57) but a Full Gasket and Seals Set is AU$76 (US$55) .... So weighing this up I think the best thing to do is proceed with caution as you say. I'm going try and buy a Full Gasket set then while I'm waiting for it to arrive I'll lap the valves and remove/check the cam too.

Just one problem .... The Full Set I found came up as a "Similar Set" while searching the online store. So I actually need to confirm if this covers my engine (MODEL 445677, TYPE 0476E, CODE 0512155YG) OK?https://www.allmowerspares.com.au/genuine-briggs-stratton-gasket-set-engine-694012.html ... Can anyone help me confirm this?

Bert the copper gaskets sound like a great idea ... How thick does the copper sheet need to be?... and what type of nibbing tool do you use?


Many thanks.
Neo
Click to expand...

Yes that is the set you need 694012 Wow that's a good price for you US dollars are 80.00 ~!~!

Just make sure it says Genuine Briggs OEM like the one in the link says .......


#46

N

Neo7

Thank you ... I'm on to it ;-)


#47

B

bertsmobile1

Buy it quick before the realize they have made a mistake.
That is the retail price for the crankcase kit with seals.
My wholesale price is more then that.

As for the copper, I have been using 1mm because that was left over from a sheet I was using for motorcycle gaskets.


#48

N

Neo7

Ordered.

And you cut out all those holes (large and small) with a nibbing tool?


#49

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Yes Bert is right ..... That is a very good price. Dealers don't have a lot of mark on that stuff.... If I order that kit by itself I would have 15 bux in shipping and package materials..... My customer could go to another dealer that has it in stock and pay cheaper there...........

People always think we make a killing on parts..... That's Bull Butter......

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!


#50

N

Neo7

Yes I know (from other industries) that the manufacture always makes a far, far higher margin than the reseller and they don't even deal with the end users ... They just hide in the background always looking so cool :thumbdown:


#51

B

bertsmobile1

Neo7 said:
Ordered.

And you cut out all those holes (large and small) with a nibbing tool?
Click to expand...

Yeah,
It is one of those punch & anvil types that fit on the end of an electric drill.
Cuts a slot about 2mm wide.
For commonly cut ones I made a wooden template and because the punch runs inside a static tube, you can use the tube as a guide.
Anything smaller than 5mm gets drilled then dressed to exact size with a dremel tool.

Got sick of having composite gaskets for vintage motorcycles crumble then leak .
I still get some made by Lanni at CopperGasketsUS but the hike in postage has doubled the price so I only put an order in if there is 5lbs of gaskets needed so the freight can get amortized over 20 or more gaskets.


#52

B

bertsmobile1

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
Yes Bert is right ..... That is a very good price. Dealers don't have a lot of mark on that stuff.... If I order that kit by itself I would have 15 bux in shipping and package materials..... My customer could go to another dealer that has it in stock and pay cheaper there...........

People always think we make a killing on parts..... That's Bull Butter......

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!
Click to expand...

Yes , sucks big time.
have to order in $ 200 lots to get free delivery from one supplier or pick up at the warehouse which is a 2 hour round trip from the other.
Briggs demanded that I keep $ 20,000 of parts in stock in order to open an account with them and then I have to spend a minimum of $ 10,000 pa to keep it open.
Kohler were a bit easier, they still required I keep $ 20,000 on the shop floor but did not care abut the annual spend.
However their "wholesale" prices to me were dearer than the retail from a lot of the bigger online warehouses who give free delivery.
Allmowers give me free delivery but only on prepaid orders of $ 50 or more.
Thus my workshop is full of aftermarket parts, genuine parts only ordered in at customers request.
Even then I have to charge parity pricing on parts because 1/2 the customers will put the invoice on feaces book to see if they got ripped off and there is always some keyboard wizard that comes up with a silly price.
So a lot of parts end up going out under cost price.
OTOH I allow the contractors free access to the store room and they pay my full price for the priviledge of grabbing some oil & blades at 3am on the way to their first job.
And these bloke use enough parts to warrant bulk purchases of blades & filters so it is a case of round-abouts & swings.


#53

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Thus my workshop is full of aftermarket parts, genuine parts only ordered in at customers request.
Even then I have to charge parity pricing on parts because 1/2 the customers will put the invoice on feaces book to see if they got ripped off and there is always some keyboard wizard that comes up with a silly price.


Ok what is parity price Definition ??? What is feases that the wizards use ??? I am not keen on the lingo in your part of down under ... Please excuse my ignorance.... How can anyone get your wholesale prices... That is protected by our distributors for dealer only only eyes...........

Oh yeah I know all about the stock up cost to start a dealership... Back in the very early 80's. It cost us 10,000 to start the Simplicity dealership for lawn tractors...... They had bought out Allis Chalmers lawn and Garden division.... My biz partner's Dad owned the Allis Chalmers dealership in my area.... Farm equipment from combines on down to Hydrostat mowers...... That was a million dollar operation right there........


#54

B

bertsmobile1

Same price as from dealers on the web for the same products.


#55

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

bertsmobile1 said:
Same price as from dealers on the web for the same products.
Click to expand...
Gotcha .........


#56

N

Neo7

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
Stay away from throwing parts inside the engine..... Backfiring usually means that the valve train is the issue..... Whether it be a slipped guide a bad or dirty valve that needs to be lapped or a cam that's bad not moving the valves as they should be moving.... Or a bent push rod >>>>>>>>>

Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!
Click to expand...
Ok here's the update....

Took both heads off today. Valve seats were in place, valve / valve stems were all straight and they seemed to be well bedded in and sealing well. Minimal carbon deposits on the the valves, pistons head and inside the cylinder head. Both inlet ports did have a thin layer of carbon, which just wiped out with a rag. I'm assuming that's from the backfiring, but both exhaust port were very clean.

I then pulled off the crankcase cover... You could eat your dinner in there!!!... It was that clean, no slime, sludge or metal deposits in the oil either. Tappets were also in perfect condition.
Measured the cam lobes and each tappet (with a small ball bearing in the seat and digital vernier calipers) for each lobe ....


  • Inlet 2 - 31.2mm, Tappet 41.1mm
  • Inlet 1 - 31.1mm, Tappet 41.1mm
  • Exhaust 2 - 31.2mm, Tappet 41.3mm
  • Exhaust 1 - 31mm, Tappet 41mm
1 is the Left Cylinder and 2 is the Right Cylinder.


Each cam lobe has a good shape point and is consistent the other lobe. The two inlets lobes are identical in shape and the two exhaust lobes are identical in shape too.
All this is kinda great news .... Except!!! .... WHAT the HELL IS WRONG WITH THIS ENGINE?!?!?!?

My many thanks to Boudreaux for talking me out of buying parts I hadn't properly confirmed were faulty.
Tomorrow I'll buy some Grinding paste and a Lapping tool to lap the valves in but it will be another week before the Gasket set arrives.

I am still open to more ideas gents? ... Including gently tapping the crankcase.... with a very large sledge hammer lol!!


All the best.
Neo


#57

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Did you ever check your flywheel key ????? That just came up on another engine question today..... They will shear if you get backfire........

might as well check that when the engine is back together............


#58

N

Neo7

Yes ... three times!... over the many months I've had the popping.
And I've substituted both coils/plugs (from a working B&S V-Twin I have) and replace the diode lead. Substituted the fuel pump replace the carb and resealed the inlet manifold gaskets.... All to no (or minimal) elavil :confused3:

But I WILL NOT be beaten!! ... :anyone:


#59

N

Neo7

Need lots of brain power here ... Ideas and HELP!!! :laughing:


#60

B

bertsmobile1

Neo7 said:
Need lots of brain power here ... Ideas and HELP!!! :laughing:
Click to expand...

I will still go with a cam defect.
The figures quoted with the tape test definately show one cylinder lagging behind the other.
Measure the circumference of the flywheel to convert the mm into degrees ( divide by 360 )
As the cams are pressed onto the shaft on a spline I am guessing , and this is a wild guess yours are out of time.
If the local B & S dealer is a nice guy take your cam and ask him to compare it to a new one.
Most dealers keep a few cams in stock.
Check all of the pushrods for length & straitness.
Also check that the alloy ones do not have a worn ring & are hanging on the shoulder of the worn area.
Also double check the valve spring length and spring rate.
Cheap & nasty way is to put a bathroom scale on the deck of a bench drill ( a press is better ) then compress till the spring is 10mm shorter.
Read the "weight" shown on the scales.
They all should be within 10% of each other or better.
Spring rates for Briggs engines are expressed as lbs/inch and there are plenty of on line converters from kg/mm to lbs/inch.
I use a kitchen scale against the chuck of a lathe and pop the spring against the tool holder so can read off the compression of the saddle travel.


#61

N

Neo7

Bert thanks so much for all your additional thoughts. Here's my run down on those...

bertsmobile1 said:
I will still go with a cam defect.
The figures quoted with the tape test definitely show one cylinder lagging behind the other.
As the cams are pressed onto the shaft on a spline I am guessing , and this is a wild guess yours are out of time.
Click to expand...
Yes but in hindsight the test really didn't compensate for human (me!) error and the minute differences between the adjustments on each rocker. I don't believe we can beat a high accuracy (digital vernier calipers) measurement directly on the cam lobes and the relative positions of the peaks of each lobe. The order of individual cams positioned on the shaft are Exhaust 1, Exhaust 2 then Inlet 1, Inlet 2. So I've just measured the straight line distance between the peaks Exhaust 1 to Exhaust 2 as 14mm and Peaks Inlet 1 to Inlet 2 as 14mm.... I also checked each cam for play on the shaft and the main gear play on the shaft ...there's no play on either. If you could see the cam you'd see it's in excellent condition .... Remember the fault has been there for quite a few months now so if the cams lobes are rotating on the shaft the damage/wear would be easy to see by now.

bertsmobile1 said:
If the local B & S dealer is a nice guy take your cam and ask him to compare it to a new one.
Click to expand...
My closest B&S stockist (that would stock a cam) is 50 miles away and they are really an online store and not so helpful.

bertsmobile1 said:
Check all of the pushrods for length & straitness.
Also check that the alloy ones do not have a worn ring & are hanging on the shoulder of the worn area.
Also double check the valve spring length and spring rate.
Click to expand...
Checked the rods once again. The two Ali ones are identical in length and the two Steel ones are identical in length. Both Ali ones are 0.5mm longer than both Steel ones. I rolled them all on a sheet of glass checked the ends and they are all in excellent condition.

bertsmobile1 said:
Also double check the valve spring length and spring rate.
Cheap & nasty way is to put a bathroom scale on the deck of a bench drill ( a press is better ) then compress till the spring is 10mm shorter.
Read the "weight" shown on the scales. They all should be within 10% of each other or better.
Click to expand...
This was a great test and here's the results from my Digital Bathroom Scales in my Drill Press ....
Spring 1 - 10mm Compression = 12.5Kgs - 20mm Compression = 23Kgs
Spring 2 - 10mm Compression = 12.5Kgs - 20mm Compression = 22.6Kgs
Spring 3 - 10mm Compression = 12.7Kgs - 20mm Compression = 22.5Kgs
Spring 4 - 10mm Compression = 12.3Kgs - 20mm Compression = 22.9Kgs
I should minus the weight of the 2 block I used on the scales (maybe 1 Kgs) but the resultant is the same.

Height were all within 1mm of each other and max compression was 22mm for all 4 springs

This kinda the Faultless Engine with Problem! :laughing: ... But please don't give up on me guys ... someone is gonna crack this for sure :thumbsup:

We've hit Page Seven ... and Seven's my lucky number :cool:


#62

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

I sure wish that mower was in the front me..... I am going to read the whole thread again tomorrow.....


#63

N

Neo7

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
I sure wish that mower was in the front me..... I am going to read the whole thread again tomorrow.....
Click to expand...
Should I post you an Airline ticket :laughing: .... Thanks Boudreaux :smile:


#64

N

Neo7

Tape Test....Left-InlCloses compared to Right-InlCloses - Right Closes Later 13mm

Measured height of rod ...
Left-InlOpen - 18.2mm
Right-InlOpen - 16.8mm

Hmmm.... am I missing something??? ... If I remember correctly the Right Inlet is closest to the top...What if the top cam bush, built into the inside of the case, has worn elliptically?... need to triple check things tomorrow.:confused2:


#65

N

Neo7

Alas NOoooo! .... Cam bush seat is in great condition. I even tried pushing in the Tappet for the Left (1) Inlet (The 1st/Top Tappet) Tappet but the cam and bush stood firm.
I also position each lobe at its high point and measured the Tappet ball seat to the flat (gasket) edge of the cylinder. All 4 measures +/- 0.3mm within each other.

I can feel my head starting to spin :confused2: :laughing:


#66

Ronno6

Ronno6

Without taking the time to review the thread in its entirety,
have you tried new spark plugs??

Plugs can cause some weird situations.........


#67

N

Neo7

Agreed and yes plugs have been replaced. :smile:


#68

B

bertsmobile1

Neo7 said:
Bert thanks so much for all your additional thoughts. Here's my run down on those...

Checked the rods once again. The two Ali ones are identical in length and the two Steel ones are identical in length. Both Ali ones are 0.5mm longer than both Steel ones. I rolled them all on a sheet of glass checked the ends and they are all in excellent condition.


This was a great test and here's the results from my Digital Bathroom Scales in my Drill Press ....
Spring 1 - 10mm Compression = 12.5Kgs - 20mm Compression = 23Kgs
Spring 2 - 10mm Compression = 12.5Kgs - 20mm Compression = 22.6Kgs
Spring 3 - 10mm Compression = 12.7Kgs - 20mm Compression = 22.5Kgs
Spring 4 - 10mm Compression = 12.3Kgs - 20mm Compression = 22.9Kgs
I should minus the weight of the 2 block I used on the scales (maybe 1 Kgs) but the resultant is the same.

Height were all within 1mm of each other and max compression was 22mm for all 4 springs

This kinda the Faultless Engine with Problem! :laughing: ... But please don't give up on me guys ... someone is gonna crack this for sure :thumbsup:

We've hit Page Seven ... and Seven's my lucky number :cool:
Click to expand...

Actual numbers are no help to me cause I don't have access to the Briggs dealer portal & I ain't about to stock $ 20,000 worth of B & S parts just to get access.
What is important is they are all the same , well close enough to being the same.
Spring rates on mower engines are not that important as they are slow reving but if one was way out it would explain the bad running.


#69

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

I have read and reread all the post's and I am still trying to figure this out ......I would like to see the heads in some pics without the springs on them..... Both sides ...........Check the heads for flat by putting 200 grit sandpaper or finer on a dead flat surface then mark the gasket area with a Sharpie and rub the head in a figure 8 motion for a few minutes,,, Look at the surface and check for flat......

A bad intake intake manifold will do this also ...... They do warp and get out of shape....... Causing an air leak that you will never find...... In some cases ....... That will act like a bad carb......

In post #21 you said you had a huge backfire...........That is cause for a partially and I mean a very small sheared Flywheel key.... It don't take much for a key just a few thousands off to make a engine run bad ........ I know first hand on that SCHITT..... What I thought was a good key was A BAD key.....

Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!


#70

N

Neo7

Thanks for staying with me on this Boudreaux :thumbsup:

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
I would like to see the heads in some pics without the springs on them..... Both sides.
Click to expand...
Ok will post up some photos soon.

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
Check the heads for flat by putting 200 grit sandpaper or finer on a dead flat surface then mark the gasket area with a Sharpie and rub the head in a figure 8 motion for a few minutes,,, Look at the surface and check for flat.
Click to expand...
Ok will do this. Just need to buy a 200 Grit Sanding (sticky) pad ... is 120 Grit far too coarse?

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
A bad intake intake manifold will do this also ...... They do warp and get out of shape....... Causing an air leak that you will never find...... In some cases ....... That will act like a bad carb.
Click to expand...
Thanks for reminding me about the manifold .... A trick I've used with motorbikes is to spray an aerosol (like degreaser) at the gaskets while the engines running. If the manifolds not sealing it would suck in the degreaser causing the engine to half stall for a second. When I replaced the carb I used a gasket seal on all the gaskets (head ports to filtered air intake shoot) and the next day I did my test with the degreaser all over and around the manifold... It passed with flying colours! .... I'm not saying it can't be the manifold but I really want to prove this before purchasing a new one. So when I have the engine assembled and running again I'll definitely reevaluate this.


Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
In post #21 you said you had a huge backfire...........That is cause for a partially and I mean a very small sheared Flywheel key.... It don't take much for a key just a few thousands off to make a engine run bad ........ I know first hand on that SCHITT..... What I thought was a good key was A BAD key.....
Click to expand...
I'm curious about this one .... My Key was not marked or damaged when a checked a few weeks back. So are you saying a key can be thinner than it should be? ... Worn so gradually that it looks polished on the sides?.... How tight should a key be in either keyway (flywheel or shaft)?


All the very best.
Neo


#71

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Ok a flywheel key should fit in there nice and snug. Always use Briggs keys never a homemade steel key....

Dat's a NO NO on using gasket sealer on any carb.. Dat stuff comes loose and makes your engine run bad.....That might your problem all along....

It doesn't matter if you just smeared a thin layer or a thick layer on there... If a gasket alone won't seal the 2 mating surfaces then something is warped and not right.....

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!


#72

N

Neo7

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
Dat's a NO NO on using gasket sealer on any carb.. Dat stuff comes loose and makes your engine run bad.....That might your problem all along....
It doesn't matter if you just smeared a thin layer or a thick layer on there... If a gasket alone won't seal the 2 mating surfaces then something is warped and not right.....
Click to expand...
Yes I no it's not good but I did it to prove the point. Exactly same symptoms were there (well) before and after I used the sealer so in this case it had no effect either way.

Here's some photos of both heads....

20181125_132131.jpg20181130_092904.jpg20181130_093044.jpg20181130_093107.jpg20181130_093246.jpg20181130_093352.jpg20181130_093707.jpg


#73

BlazNT

BlazNT

I see intake valve not sealing. I see out of round valve guides.
You need to lap your valves and replace the valve guides.


#74

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

BlazNT said:
I see intake valve not sealing. I see out of round valve guides.
You need to lap your valves and replace the valve guides.
Click to expand...


Yes I see a valve lapping that has been over due......... But I don't see a out of round valve guide..... Maybe my eyes are going bad LOL.....

The intake seals should be replaced when you get the kit in ....... That engine was running rich for quite sometime .....

Those carbs are very finicky like I told you before....

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!


#75

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Well I'm not gonna edit my last post......

I blew up the pics to 300 percent and I see a lot of SCHITT going on in them heads.... All the valve seats are very dirty...

They are on the verge of going out almost...... Woweeeeeee..... Maybe it's the blow up of the pics but they look bad....

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I was at the radio station doing my Thursday night show with Todd and we had some great Gumbo in the kitchen cooking and some great friends over there.... Cajun Music at it's best on KBON 101.1 FM plus a variety of country and oldie Swamp Pop music....

Plus Tard Mes Amies


#76

N

Neo7

Please tell me which photo and where you guys see the intake valve not sealing? .... Seats have definitely not moved.

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
The intake seals should be replaced when you get the kit in ....... That engine was running rich for quite sometime .....
Click to expand...
Yes they will be. Engine was running rich with old carb and still is with the new one too??

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
All the valve seats are very dirty...
They are on the verge of going out almost...... Woweeeeeee..... Maybe it's the blow up of the pics but they look bad....
Click to expand...
Corbon looks bad in photo but is quite thin and most of it is wiping out with a rag. Cleaning and Lapping will commence soon.


Also I remove the flywheel and took out the Key.
The key fits really snug in both keyways (Flywheel and Shaft). I have taken some magnified photos of the Key which make it look really bad but most of those marks are just stains. I even put the Key in a vice to compress test for fractures but it was fine .... Does this look like a B&S Key? ... I've never replaced one so I wouldn't know. It's wider width is the keyway width.... so quite shallow between the two keyways.


All the best.
Neo
20181130_105415.jpg20181130_105617.jpg20181130_105747.jpg


#77

N

Neo7

I think I see it now... this is the indicator... right?

20181130_093352.jpg


#78

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
I think I see it now... this is the indicator... right?

View attachment 41711
Click to expand...

Yea that's a tell tale for something alright...... The seats are in good shape but need a good lapping with course and fine compound....

That key looks like a Briggs key, but I would put a new one in when you put all back together.... Yours is buggered up a lil bit.....

What do the valves look like >>> Pics ????


#79

BlazNT

BlazNT

This valve guide is oval.
engine head.jpg


#80

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

BlazNT said:
This valve guide is oval.
View attachment 41716
Click to expand...


Thats the rubber on the intake seal...... It straightens out when the push rod goes in....


#81

N

Neo7

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
Thats the rubber on the intake seal...... It straightens out when the push rod goes in....
Click to expand...
Yep that's true. My one is seeping a little so if the rubber seal comes with the Gasket kit I'll replace it ... I'm assuming it just pulls out?


I took the crankshaft out today and have a cope of questions....

This looks like a chip to me? ... Or is it a feature? ... There are no marks on the Crankshaft at all.
Bearing.jpgPan.jpg


I watched Taryl's video on swapping engines from one mower to another. He highlighted the need to have the right generator to accommodate battery charging when an electric PTO on the Mower but wasn't clear on how you tell one from the other .... Is this a high output generator?
Gen.jpg

All the best.
Neo


#82

Boobala

Boobala

Neo7 said:
Yep that's true. My one is seeping a little so if the rubber seal comes with the Gasket kit I'll replace it ... I'm assuming it just pulls out?


I took the crankshaft out today and have a cope of questions....

This looks like a chip to me? ... Or is it a feature? ... There are no marks on the Crankshaft at all.
View attachment 41746View attachment 41747


I watched Taryl's video on swapping engines from one mower to another. He highlighted the need to have the right generator to accommodate battery charging when an electric PTO on the Mower but wasn't clear on how you tell one from the other .... Is this a high output generator?
View attachment 41748

All the best.
Neo
Click to expand...

THIS might be of help ......

www.promotor.fi/galleria/alternator_replacement.pdf ........ see last few pages


#83

N

Neo7

Wow Boobala, thanks so much for sharing that Education Guide. There's lots of great information in there.... Do you have any other B&S Guides you could share?

All the very best.
Neo


#84

Boobala

Boobala

Neo7 said:
Wow Boobala, thanks so much for sharing that Education Guide. There's lots of great information in there.... Do you have any other B&S Guides you could share?

All the very best.
Neo
Click to expand...

UHhhhh YEP... I'll have to go N dig it up, I've got a good deal of PDF files which won't upload on the forum, but send me your email address in a PM and I can send throgh the email ( usually) depends on their size .....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BL6WmE7pPKs&t=94s

https://www.briggsandstratton.com/n...ng-lawn-mower-engines/intek-series-vtwin.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHSMYJoQXvM&t=33s

REGULATOR.PNG..............View attachment briggswiringexplanation[1].pdf..............WHICH HUSQV IT CAME ON.PNG


#85

Boobala

Boobala

Sent you an email, did it come through ..???


#86

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
Yep that's true. My one is seeping a little so if the rubber seal comes with the Gasket kit I'll replace it ... I'm assuming it just pulls out?


I took the crankshaft out today and have a cope of questions....

This looks like a chip to me? ... Or is it a feature? ... There are no marks on the Crankshaft at all.
View attachment 41746View attachment 41747


I watched Taryl's video on swapping engines from one mower to another. He highlighted the need to have the right generator to accommodate battery charging when an electric PTO on the Mower but wasn't clear on how you tell one from the other .... Is this a high output generator?
View attachment 41748

All the best.
Neo
Click to expand...

That nick you see is an oil port..If I'm Not mistaken .........


#87

N

Neo7

Well that's a load off my mind ... Thanks Boudreaux ;-)


#88

N

Neo7

Ok rebuild in progress.

Does anyone know the bolt tightening specs for my engine 40777-0128-E1 ...
  • The Conrods?
  • Head bolts?
  • Valve Rocker bolts?
  • Crankcase cover?

Many thanks.
Neo


#89

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Look up Briggs engine specs ad you will see a site that has a PDF file .. Open that then look your engine series number up on the left and it will tell you all your info.


#90

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
Ok rebuild in progress.

Does anyone know the bolt tightening specs for my engine 40777-0128-E1 ...
  • The Conrods?
  • Head bolts?
  • Valve Rocker bolts?
  • Crankcase cover?

Many thanks.
Neo
Click to expand...

Here ya go Mon Ami ~!~!

http://www4.briggsandstratton.com/miscpdfs/RNT/Engine Specifications Chart_ms3992.pdf


#91

N

Neo7

Hi All,

Thought I'd give you all an update on thing.

After a lots of fuss (getting the Gasket set and Inlet port O-ring), 3 evenings back I put the engine back together, leaving the cover and Flywheel Fan off just for a quick test. I had to bolt the engine down so I could tighten the Flywheel nut and start her up. So the next morning I came out, bolted the engine down but forgot to tighten the Flywheel nut!!! :ashamed: .... Engine started and promptly sheared the Flywheel key :frown:
Fitted a new key and started her up 10 seconds later there's pop, pop, pop which sounded just like the original problem but 30 second after that I noticed lots of smoke coming off of the exhaust box and the engine was getting too hot too quickly. So switched her off on the assumption that I've bent a valve or push rod. Total running time wasn't much more than a minute. Grabbed my IR Temp device and checked the temperature on both cylinders....
# Cylinder one was 44 degrees C (107.6 F)
# Cylinder two was 96 degrees C (204.8 F)!!! ... Like something has gone wrong in cylinder two!!

So I took the head of of cylinder two again and took off the springs. Couldn't find anything major except the Inlet valve has a tiny wobble (less than 0.5mm) when I spin it in an electric drill. Maybe it's a problem but can't tell without replacing it with a new one.

I'm getting ready to order parts would it be Ok to reuse the head gasket that's only been run for 1 minute?... Looks like new.


Merry Christmas!!
Neo


#92

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Yes you'll be okay reusing the gasket... It should just peel off real easy..........

Joyeux Noel et Bon Anne' Mon Ami ~!~!


#93

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

What do you mean by INLET port gasket ???? Intake gasket ??? The round one orange colored ??? Heck I could have mailed you a set in the mail.....

Inlet valve is the intake valve ??? If it wobbles then the valve is bent , and a bent valve is a NO GO ......

Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!


#94

N

Neo7

"Inlet port O-rings" ... Yes the orange ones recessed into the plastic Inlet Manifold ... Couldn't find the part here ... All good now but thanks anyway for the offer. :thumbsup:


#95

N

Neo7

B&S have shut down for 3 weeks in Australia so it's proving to be impossible to get the Inlet Valve I need (792200). Can anyone of you guys supply this valve and ship USPS to Australia? I can can pay you PayPal so you get the money straight away.

Many thanks.
Neo


#96

BlazNT

BlazNT

USPS would be a 3-week shipment.


#97

N

Neo7

BlazNT said:
USPS would be a 3-week shipment.
Click to expand...
Yes I know (sometimes they are quicker) but my more local B&S Supplier is the same (possibly 4 weeks) and they are behaving like idiots too :laughing:


#98

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

The number you gave 792200 is a valve............. It's not the round orange flat style O gaskets you said earlier .......

Let me know some more info Mon Ami ~!~!


#99

N

Neo7

No no, I'm looking for the "Inlet Valve" now... that number is correct.


#100

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
No no, I'm looking for the "Inlet Valve" now... that number is correct.
Click to expand...

I can check to see how much shipping is from My local USPS ...... What is your postal code ??


#101

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Hey Mon Ami........... I know people in Australia make good money cause I have a few friends there and NZ also and I do know that a 1 person meal at a regular restaurant costs about 50 bux also......

You need to wait on the Briggs dealer in your area i think.......... If I order a valve from my Briggs distributor it's 13 to 14 US dollars shipping and then 35 USPS shipping to you in a flat rate, if it fits it ships envelope.......

Here's an idea for you ...... Call my buddy Ed at Pro Parts direct and see how much the shipping will be for you ....

1 800 305 9255 ask for Ed................


#102

B

bertsmobile1

B & S Australia have lost the plot & I have given up trying to get genuine B & S parts locally
Over the past year I have been forced to buy two 31 series cams direct from Jacks Small Engines because Briggs did not have any stock & I was quoted 3 to 5 weeks , 3 weeks after I had placed the order for the first one.
Same thing with 44 series rebuild gasket kits and a 16A stator .
In all cases, Jacks had them to me in 14 days via USPS and they ended up being 10% cheaper than buying through a local dealer where I get a 20% discount , and that including the postage.

Right now Briggs Australia are busy getting Oregon branded products into Bunnings, Mitre 10 & K Mart.
This retail deal will be worth millions to them ( or so they think ) so Briggs owners can go to hell in a handbasket if they think Briggs Australia will be bothered to supply them with low profit engine parts.

Add to that All Power went belly up July last year.
All Power were the Stens representative down here but also handled the Echo & Shindawa franchises.
Briggs picked up both of those so again Briggs Engine users can go suck eggs if they expect parts because Briggs Australia are busy trying to get Echo & Shindawa into all of their dealer network retail outlets.
Thus again they are stretched well beyond their capacity and are letting their Briggs engine customers go hang while they chase big buck retail sales.

In February the RGS customers were advised that from October 1 2018 Oregon parts will have to be ordered through the Briggs network once the RGS stock ran out.
I have not been able to get any genuine Oregon parts from Briggs dealers and in particular Gator blades which again I am ordering direct from the USA through Jacks Small Engines.
I have been converting my Oregon chain saw customers to Hurtzl products which seem to be good 2nd shelf quality wise . I buy these direct from the factory in China so as far as I can see Oregon have shot themselves in the foot with this one & Briggs have bitten off way more than they can chew and are choking on it.

So now I am advising my customers to fit Kawasaki engines if they want a good one ( I can fit them for the same price as the equivalent Briggs ) or a Chinese Knock off from one of the various tool shop franchises if they want a cheap one.
You can give up on your Briggs engine and forget about getting parts for it locally as it appears that Briggs Australia has no intention of retaining adequate stocks of Briggs engine parts in their local warehouse .

This is shown by the fact that they really did close ALL of the Briggs parts warehouses for 3 weeks over the Christmas break ( 21-12-18 / 7-1-19 )
Lifan & Loncin OTOH only closed for the public holidays . Kawasaki was only closed from 24-12-18 to 2-1-19
RGS closed Sydney for 2 weeks but the main warehouse in Brisbane & Melbourne were only closed public holidays


#103

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Quote from Bert ............

Right now Briggs Australia are busy getting Oregon branded products into Bunnings, Mitre 10 & K Mart.
This retail deal will be worth millions to them ( or so they think ) so Briggs owners can go to hell in a handbasket if they think Briggs Australia will be bothered to supply them with low profit engine parts................


Yes Oregon and my Briggs Distributor are together over here....... It is convenient for me because I can do my Briggs order and get my Oregon parts in the same shipment at no extra shipping costs..........

Bert I think you can go thru my distributor also since you have a business and get your parts wholesale...


#104

B

bertsmobile1

Might take you up ,on that Beu.
Took lot of doing to get "trade" deals from Jacks.

As we know , but most owners don't the logistical costs of spare parts distribution is a lot more than the actual cost of the parts so combining warehouses to cut costs makes sense.
However the caveat to that is having the ability to do it which Briggs Australia apparently does not.


#105

A

(Account Closed)

Jacks recently just starting putting on-line, once your cart is full , ready to check out, what's in stock and what isn't.

They never had that before (I did bitch about it) so your entire order isn't necessarily held up wit a back ordered part.

IME, Jacks, even with shipping in the US, is still cheaper than the dealer, then add sales tax...


#106

N

Neo7

bertsmobile1 said:
B & S Australia have lost the plot & I have given up trying to get genuine B & S parts locally
Over the past year I have been forced to buy two 31 series cams direct from Jacks Small Engines because Briggs did not have any stock & I was quoted 3 to 5 weeks , 3 weeks after I had placed the order for the first one.
Same thing with 44 series rebuild gasket kits and a 16A stator .
In all cases, Jacks had them to me in 14 days via USPS and they ended up being 10% cheaper than buying through a local dealer where I get a 20% discount , and that including the postage.

Right now Briggs Australia are busy getting Oregon branded products into Bunnings, Mitre 10 & K Mart.
This retail deal will be worth millions to them ( or so they think ) so Briggs owners can go to hell in a handbasket if they think Briggs Australia will be bothered to supply them with low profit engine parts.

Add to that All Power went belly up July last year.
All Power were the Stens representative down here but also handled the Echo & Shindawa franchises.
Briggs picked up both of those so again Briggs Engine users can go suck eggs if they expect parts because Briggs Australia are busy trying to get Echo & Shindawa into all of their dealer network retail outlets.
Thus again they are stretched well beyond their capacity and are letting their Briggs engine customers go hang while they chase big buck retail sales.

In February the RGS customers were advised that from October 1 2018 Oregon parts will have to be ordered through the Briggs network once the RGS stock ran out.
I have not been able to get any genuine Oregon parts from Briggs dealers and in particular Gator blades which again I am ordering direct from the USA through Jacks Small Engines.
I have been converting my Oregon chain saw customers to Hurtzl products which seem to be good 2nd shelf quality wise . I buy these direct from the factory in China so as far as I can see Oregon have shot themselves in the foot with this one & Briggs have bitten off way more than they can chew and are choking on it.

So now I am advising my customers to fit Kawasaki engines if they want a good one ( I can fit them for the same price as the equivalent Briggs ) or a Chinese Knock off from one of the various tool shop franchises if they want a cheap one.
You can give up on your Briggs engine and forget about getting parts for it locally as it appears that Briggs Australia has no intention of retaining adequate stocks of Briggs engine parts in their local warehouse .

This is shown by the fact that they really did close ALL of the Briggs parts warehouses for 3 weeks over the Christmas break ( 21-12-18 / 7-1-19 )
Lifan & Loncin OTOH only closed for the public holidays . Kawasaki was only closed from 24-12-18 to 2-1-19
RGS closed Sydney for 2 weeks but the main warehouse in Brisbane & Melbourne were only closed public holidays
Click to expand...
Now this is interesting information ... Thanks for the heads-up on all this Bert.


#107

N

Neo7

Ok, I've been away for a few weeks but the new inlet valve was in the mailbox when I got home. Fitted it and put everything back together. During reassembly I notice there was no oil residue in in No.2 Cylinder Head. Crossed checked that with No.1 Cylinder Head which had a fair amount of oil residue and an oil saturated cover gasket too. Anyway I started it up for 30 seconds with the No.2 cover bolts loose to see if any oil would drip out but nothing came out. Took the cover off and it was still as dry as a bone in there (and cover gasket dry too).
No.2 Cylinder is the lower (closer to the oil sump/pump) but got quite hot in 30 seconds but No.1 Cylinder was quite cool .... In addition to all this the pop, pop, popping was still there in the 30 seconds I ran the engine. So changing the vale was another waste of effort and money.

So it seems I have an oil flow issue.... I tilted the engine back 45 degrees and removed the oil pump cover but the pump seemed all OK. Covered in oil and rotated when I turned the flywheel. So what could be stopping oil travelling up into Cylinder Head No.2 and possibly Cylinder No.2 too ???

Hope this engine isn't drive you crazy as much as it is me!!!


WhSkszy.jpg m5C01kK.jpg HCZjJnd.jpg


#108

A

(Account Closed)

Seems you need to check spec's on the pump first and make sure it's within spec's:

https://www.jackssmallengines.com/j...1/engine-sump-oil-pump-dipstick-tube-assembly

Then, follow, blow out all the oil orifices in the block as it seems one may very well be clogged (to that cylinder).
Brake cleaner, air, etc to get that opened up again.

That definitly needs to be clear..


#109

N

Neo7

SRTsFZ6 said:
Then, follow, blow out all the oil orifices in the block as it seems one may very well be clogged (to that cylinder).
Brake cleaner, air, etc to get that opened up again.

That definitly needs to be clear..
Click to expand...
Where do I find the oil orifices in the block?
I guess this means I need to strip down and open up the whole engine again? :frown: ...... Will I need to buy a new sump pan gasket?

Many thanks.
Neo


#110

A

(Account Closed)

I would pull the oil filter and oil pump. Oil flows from one, of course thru the filter and THRU the rest of the engine, including getting oil to the top end(s).

You can start at the top end and work backwards, either direction, (IDK where your passages are), but oil has to flow and it obviously isn't.

Whether it's a full tear down or not, it depends on where the clog is / and simply finding it.

Using an air compressor and say brake cleaner from the oil pump cavity out to the rest of the engine is probably how you'll need to proceed.

Should be pretty obvious once you get to the affected area...


A shop manual may have the oil path for the engine but "hands on" will ultimately be needed.


#111

BlazNT

BlazNT

Neo7 said:
Where do I find the oil orifices in the block?
I guess this means I need to strip down and open up the whole engine again? :frown: ...... Will I need to buy a new sump pan gasket?

Many thanks.
Neo
Click to expand...


Oil is pumped into the heads. So I would start by taking off the valve covers and looking for the holes then spraying carb cleaner in them then compressed air. If that does not work then remove heads and do it again. Then if it is not working you may have to disassemble the engine.


#112

N

Neo7

Ok I've spent all day working in the B&S. Took the sump cover off and here's what I've observed ... There appears to be no pumped oil that goes into the Cylinder Head Chamber (CHC). There's two large holes above and below the tappets (I can fit my little finger in it) that allows oil to be splashed into the CHC, probably thrown off of the Camshaft as it spins.
The two Big End bearings are pressure lubricated through a tube which is actually inside the Crankshaft and the Camshaft bearings and Top Crankshaft bearing are pressure lubricated through a tube inside the Camshaft (this is clever stuff lol!). All oil entry/exit holes are quite large (2 to 4mm) so they would be quite hard to block.

Despite learning so much about this engine today as usual I found NOTHING really wrong with it but have some suspect points. ...
The Oil Collector Vale ... Looks Ok but how can I test it? ... If the valve is leaking it would reduce oil pressure I guess.
The Oil Collector Filter - https://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Stratton-794389-Collector-Replaces/dp/B005F6Q93Q was in poor condition with two chunks missing... Does anyone think this would have an effect on how the engine runs?
Interesting that the Oil Collector compartment has port hole into Cylinder 1 CHC but not ino Cylinder 2 CHC. This might explain why Cylinder 1 CHC was getting Oil Ok.

Been a long day... This engine has got to be the biggest pain-in-the-*** on record lol!!

Many thanks for your participation ;-)
Neo

DtMoAnD.jpg
Ykygf8Vs.jpg
FRcg8L3.jpg


#113

A

(Account Closed)

I would think they'd be more than just a splash from the crankcase to the valve cover.

Someone else more knowledgeable will have to chime in about that.

That last picture, are those hair line cracks coming out to the sides??? There's NO casting marks(if casting marks) elsewhere... What is that part please?

I gather you blew out the crankshaft and every other hole you could find.

If that missing filter section, stayed together and got into an oiling orifice, that WOULD be a problem...

Are there spec's for the oil pump "impeller", etc and has that been checked? Just trying to rule out a bad oil pump, not enough volume / pressure to make it to the bad cylinder..


#114

N

Neo7

SRTsFZ6 said:
I would think they'd be more than just a splash from the crankcase to the valve cover.
Someone else more knowledgeable will have to chime in about that.
That last picture, are those hair line cracks coming out to the sides??? There's NO casting marks(if casting marks) elsewhere... What is that part please?
I gather you blew out the crankshaft and every other hole you could find.
If that missing filter section, stayed together and got into an oiling orifice, that WOULD be a problem...
Are there spec's for the oil pump "impeller", etc and has that been checked? Just trying to rule out a bad oil pump, not enough volume / pressure to make it to the bad cylinder..
Click to expand...

I inspected the CHC really well but found no other oil holes but the spashholes (and the extra side vent in Cylinder 1) .... Also I've previous had a rocker cover off with the engine running and it does tend to spit out everywhere.

Sorry that last picture is the top bearing seat for the camshaft showing two oil vents. One going to the top Crankshaft bearing and the other going to the Oil Collector Chamber. No cracks just poor quality B&S casting lol!!

Yes I blew out all holes with an airline ... All were completely clear .... In fact the hole engine is as clean as a whistle lol! .... and there's no a trace of any bits from the plastic sponge (Oil Collector filter) either.

I have a micrometer (imperial) so if anyone knows the measurement specs for the pump components please let me know?.... The pump is quite simple and the metal components are showing no wear that I can see.

Many thanks.
Neo


#115

N

Neo7

It seems the plastic'ish filer mesh thats goes inside the Oil Collector Chamber is a very hard to buy over here .... without spending a fortune!!
Does anyone know of a readily available substitute material I can cut to size?
CANCEL THIS REQUEST ABOVE.... I found something that's almost an identical mesh and rated for high temperatures too... A BBQ Scourer :laughing:

I have also included a picture of the Oil Collector Chamber which shows the Oil vent hole into Cylinder 1


Many thanks.
Neo

N7iG14c.jpgC3FGmmU.jpg

Sosy4nc.jpg


#116

N

Neo7

Ok here's another update.

Engine is all up and running. Cylinder 2 always runs hotter than Cylinder 1 but when you put the plastic cover on it runs at a reasonable 65 degrees at idle. Oil only splashes into Cylinder 2 CHC when the engine is reved up and it's all fine after that. Long story short I think I just wasted another two days with this engine because it's still randomly pop, pop, popping (at all revs)!

Now I'm questioning everything I've done previously. So again I tested the manifold for leaks (engine running) by spraying with degreaser and compressed air but it didn't miss a beat.
I swapped the ignition coils with my other V-Twin but no change.... Oh and I also check the flywheel for bogus magnetic spot ... but nothing.

I could even ignore the pop, pop, popping and bolt it into the mower ... but that would be admitting defeat :tongue:

This is the "Engine from Hell" so can ANYONE come to my rescue with that spark of inspiration that leads me to finding this fault!!!


All the best.
Neo


#117

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Hey Mon Ami ............. It's been a while ole buddy......

The only thing I can think of now is still that damn intake manifold......... If it's warped then nothing will seal it..... BUT you say you are spraying carb cleaner and such while it's running top, bottom and sides so I guess that will eliminate that........

Did you get that new valve lapped in good ?????

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!


#118

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Didn't taryl have a video with a similar engine that was popping?
Turned out being a wore cam lobe, but I'm sure you checked that.


#119

N

Neo7

Scrubcadet10 said:
Didn't taryl have a video with a similar engine that was popping?
Turned out being a wore cam lobe, but I'm sure you checked that.
Click to expand...
Yes engine has been stripped down and all the lobes were checked OK .... but thanks for the suggestion :smile:


#120

N

Neo7

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
Hey Mon Ami ............. It's been a while ole buddy......

The only thing I can think of now is still that damn intake manifold......... If it's warped then nothing will seal it..... BUT you say you are spraying carb cleaner and such while it's running top, bottom and sides so I guess that will eliminate that........

Did you get that new valve lapped in good ?????

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!
Click to expand...
Hi Boudreaux,

Thanks for your reply ... I was kinda wondering if you'd given up on me :laughing:
Yes I'm still considering replacing the manifold (indesparation!) but this engine has already cost me more than my first girlfriend!!! :ashamed:
Yes I got the new valve lapped. Nice thin sealing line (I'm told that's the best) and it passed the Kero leak-down test with flying colors :thumbsup:

Someone once told me that if you have an unsolvable problem you should Brainstorm and take note of any suggestion (wild or not) and the solution will be somewhere in thw combination of those suggestions..... And I note that no one has suggested I trash the engine yet :laughing:


#121

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Trash it.
:laughing::laughing::wink:


#122

N

Neo7

Scrubcadet10 said:
Trash it.
:laughing::laughing::wink:
Click to expand...
Don't tempt me :thumbsup:


#123

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
Yes engine has been stripped down and all the lobes were checked OK .... but thanks for the suggestion :smile:
Click to expand...


But is it popping that bad or just a lil bit ???????


#124

A

(Account Closed)

Neo, can you post a You Tube or some sort of video /audio?


#125

N

Neo7

SRTsFZ6 said:
Neo, can you post a You Tube or some sort of video /audio?
Click to expand...

Sorry for the delay gents...Might be able to get this done tomorrow.


#126

N

Neo7

Ok I've been busy yesterday morning (Australia time) lol!

Firstly this 24HP engine was on good behavior yesterday and wasn't poping much so it took a while to catch the pops on video but this engine has been like this in the past so I'm sure it will get much worse again. Watch the 3 videos and listen for what sounds like a quite sneezes ... This gets much more frequent at higher RPM but you can't hear it (above the general noise of the) on a mobile phone.

So after making these videos I decided to do what I've been so reluctant to do and remove the single barrel carb off my 21HP B&S (in my John Deere) and fitted it to my 24HP engine. Well I did that and Yippeee!!!.... at low RPM the hunting and sneezing was gone!!... Well not quite because there was faint occasional (and random) thud but all in all the engine was far better behaved than the twin barrel setup. This leaves me with questions ....

  1. I now have a working configuration should I just covert the carb and manifold over to a single barrel?... But I need to push a 52" Cutting deck with this engine. Would I lose too much power (technically 3HP) on a single barrel carb or wouldn't it make much difference?
  2. I've previously replaced my twin barrel carb so should I try replacing the plastic manifold (I can see you smiling Boudreaux :laughing:)? .... or even better can I replace the plastic manifold with an older aluminum twin barrel manifold (Part No. 699801)?

Out of the two (or three) options above I actually prefer converting the engine to a single barrel. Engine runs quieter, smoother and starts easier and my 21HP engine has never given me trouble.... But will there be enough power for a 52" Cutting deck ???

Let me know your thoughts gents.:thumbsup:

4 Pops -Link-
Low RPM-Link-
2 Pops-Link-


#127

A

(Account Closed)

It seems you have the engine bolted to a stand of some sort but even still, I don't hear much of a "pop" but it certainly runs pretty rough.

Between putting the "new carb / manifold" on and it's improvement, does it run any smoother??

If it's not "popping" with the new carb / manifold (the issue is gone), seems you narrowed it down to the intake / carb. Is one plug burning a different color than the other (whitish / lean)?

A lazer / infrared temp gun pointed close to the exhaust manifold/adjacent to the heads would show if one side is hotter than the other (the hot cylinder is working properly, the other isn't).

I forgot if you tried spraying starting fluid /similar around the manifold (while running) and check for a rise in RPM's(indicating an air leak /lean condition).

I'd examine (and do the above test ) to the intake manifold first. Then go thru the carb again.

Re replacement, I'd try and get a used set up or new if possible. The single barrel for testing should work fine. The lower HP is likely FROM the single barrel carb and NOT having a dual carb set up.

You can always put the engine back on the mower with the single barrel carb and run it, see how she runs. I doubt it'd be a problem...


#128

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo..... Hell yeah replace that intake with a aluminum one..... I wish you would have said you had one a good while back....

Just make sure and check for FLAT ... Do the sand paper trick..... I would stay with the 2 BBL carb.... It'll run better like that and not to lean .....

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!


#129

N

Neo7

SRTsFZ6 said:
It seems you have the engine bolted to a stand of some sort but even still, I don't hear much of a "pop" but it certainly runs pretty rough.

Between putting the "new carb / manifold" on and it's improvement, does it run any smoother??

If it's not "popping" with the new carb / manifold (the issue is gone), seems you narrowed it down to the intake / carb. Is one plug burning a different color than the other (whitish / lean)?

A lazer / infrared temp gun pointed close to the exhaust manifold/adjacent to the heads would show if one side is hotter than the other (the hot cylinder is working properly, the other isn't).

I forgot if you tried spraying starting fluid /similar around the manifold (while running) and check for a rise in RPM's(indicating an air leak /lean condition).

I'd examine (and do the above test ) to the intake manifold first. Then go thru the carb again.

Re replacement, I'd try and get a used set up or new if possible. The single barrel for testing should work fine. The lower HP is likely FROM the single barrel carb and NOT having a dual carb set up.

You can always put the engine back on the mower with the single barrel carb and run it, see how she runs. I doubt it'd be a problem...
Click to expand...

Yes much smoother.

Sorry I neglected to check the plug colors but Cylinder 2 was still running hotter .... Single barrel Carb is back in my John Deere now so can't check this now.
Can you please explain why the hot cylinder is the one that's working properly?

Yes I've tried spraying the plastic manifold a few times now... But it's never shown anything.

So we have one vote for Single Carb and one vote for staying with the Dual Carb :confused2: :laughing:

Has anyone swapped out a plastic twin barrel manifold for an aluminum twin barrel manifold?... are any modifications required?


#130

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
Yes much smoother.

Sorry I neglected to check the plug colors but Cylinder 2 was still running hotter .... Single barrel Carb is back in my John Deere now so can't check this now.
Can you please explain why the hot cylinder is the one that's working properly?

Yes I've tried spraying the plastic manifold a few times now... But it's never shown anything.

So we have one vote for Single Carb and one vote for staying with the Dual Carb :confused2: :laughing:

Has anyone swapped out a plastic twin barrel manifold for an aluminum twin barrel manifold?... are any modifications required?
Click to expand...

If it fits then you will have to use the flat gaskets, not the orange O ring style.............


#131

N

Neo7

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
If it fits .......
Click to expand...
Errr that's kinda what I'm asking ... before I buy one :laughing:
I can see I might need different mounting screws. The 4 that hold the Carb to the manifold but didn't think about the two gaskets so thanks for that :thumbsup:


#132

A

(Account Closed)

Neo7 said:
Yes much smoother. THAT CONFIRMS FUELING ISSUES..

Sorry I neglected to check the plug colors but Cylinder 2 was still running hotter .... Single barrel Carb is back in my John Deere now so can't check this now.

Can you please explain why the hot cylinder is the one that's working properly? THAT'S THE SIDE THAT'S APPARENTLY GETTING FUEL AND WORKING. NO FUEL (OR LITTLE-FROM THE CARB OR CRACKED MANIFOLD) MEANS NO FIRE(POWER) FROM THE OTHER CYLINDER (IT'S RUNNING COLDER AS THERE'S NOT FULL POWER BEING DEVELOPED)

Yes I've tried spraying the plastic manifold a few times now... But it's never shown anything.


So we have one vote for Single Carb and one vote for staying with the Dual Carb.
IMO, YOU CAN GET BY WITH THE SINGLE BARREL. KEEPING WITH THE DUAL WILL ALLOW MORE AIR FLOW, MORE EFFICIENCY, MORE POWER



Has anyone swapped out a plastic twin barrel manifold for an aluminum twin barrel manifold?... are any modifications required?
Click to expand...

Can't answer that but if you stick with the two barrel carb (properly fixed or replaced) and your plastic manifold is fine, it's probably moot.

IMO, it you can replace the plastic with aluminum, I WOULD change it, much more durable.

Lastly, inspect that plastic manifold with a magnifying glass just to confirm no hair line cracks elsewhere in the manifold. I suspect that one side of the carb(coldish cylinder), is still clogged, running lean (resulting in running rough, "popping"-possibly a "lean sneeze" condition..

**You want to check the plugs with the "old set up" on the engine and not just idling, but full power. You can re-mount the engine in the frame now that the issue is about narrowed down...


#133

N

Neo7

SRTsFZ6 said:
IMO, it you can replace the plastic with aluminum, I WOULD change it, much more durable.
Lastly, inspect that plastic manifold with a magnifying glass just to confirm no hairline cracks elsewhere in the manifold.
**You want to check the plugs with the "old set up" on the engine and not just idling, but full power. You can re-mount the engine in the frame now that the issue is about narrowed down...
Click to expand...
Yep good points. I'll go ahead and order an Ali manifold and fit the engine to the mower while waiting for the parts to arrive.
I did check the Plugs at full power previously. And they are still white'ish... a bit whiter on the hotter Cylinder 2

SRTsFZ6 said:
I suspect that one side of the carb(coldish cylinder), is still clogged, running lean (resulting in running rough, "popping"-possibly a "lean sneeze" condition.
Click to expand...
But how can this be when I've cleaned and skimmed the heads, lapped in all valves, new valve seals and new gaskets? ... Compression is high and the same in both cylinders?


#134

A

(Account Closed)

As you've seen with swapping the carb /intake manifold, the engine runs better. It's NOW getting the correct air/fuel mixture

Sitting there idling on a stand is NOT the same as full throttle(obviously). If the carbs clogged/cracked/broke, if it's not providing enough fuel for the conditions it'll act up...

The original either carb or manifold was / is leaning out the one cylinder, MORE SO WHEN at FULL THROTTLE..

Gotta have compression, fuel and spark.

You have all BUT the correct mix of fuel=issues


#135

N

Neo7

Yes but the carb can't be clogged/cracked/broke because it's brand new so apart from the manifold what else could this be? :confused2:


#136

A

(Account Closed)

Neo7 said:
Yes but the carb can't be clogged/cracked/broke because it's brand new so apart from the manifold what else could this be? :confused2:
Click to expand...

If the carb is brand new (and works properly), then your issue is likely in the manifold.

You put another carb/manifold on and it ran good.


The fuel /intake system IS THE ISSUE.. Simple as that


#137

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
Yep good points. I'll go ahead and order an Ali manifold and fit the engine to the mower while waiting for the parts to arrive.
I did check the Plugs at full power previously. And they are still white'ish... a bit whiter on the hotter Cylinder 2


But how can this be when I've cleaned and skimmed the heads, lapped in all valves, new valve seals and new gaskets? ... Compression is high and the same in both cylinders?
Click to expand...

Neo ......... Go look at post 133 and look above this quote above this typing... Scott mean't the carb was probably still clogged not the cylinder.....

Scott doesn't know you have a brand new carb......I think you do anyway ..... Hope it wasn't a cheapo e bay carb....

I have not put an aluminum manifold in place of plastic... Just make sure it will take the 2 BBL carb....


#138

A

(Account Closed)

Correct ^^. I did not re-read 14 pages of this thread.



If the other single barrel carb and intake solves the problem, the issue HAS TO BE the intake or carb..


#139

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

SRTsFZ6 said:
Correct ^^. I did not re-read 14 pages of this thread.



If the other single barrel carb and intake solves the problem, the issue HAS TO BE the intake or carb..
Click to expand...

Intake ............... I forgot how many times I said it was the intake in the duration of this thread......

I did say something else also.... But my main thing was the fuel system.....


#140

BlazNT

BlazNT

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
Intake ............... I forgot how many times I said it was the intake in the duration of this thread......

I did say something else also.... But my main thing was the fuel system.....
Click to expand...

You said it 7 times. I looked it up for you.:laughing::laughing::laughing:


#141

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

BlazNT said:
You said it 7 times. I looked it up for you.:laughing::laughing::laughing:
Click to expand...

Boo Boo was the first one to say it in post number 1................


#142

N

Neo7

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
Boo Boo was the first one to say it in post number 1................
Click to expand...
Hope you guys are right .... Wouldn't be the 1st time this engine has had me spend money without success .... If the manifold does cures the problem then I gonna throw a big party and you guys are all invited lol!! :thumbsup:


#143

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
Hope you guys are right .... Wouldn't be the 1st time this engine has had me spend money without success .... If the manifold does cures the problem then I gonna throw a big party and you guys are all invited lol!! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Neo ............ You have to make sure the aluminum manifold is a direct fit and accepts YOUR 2 BBL carb before you order it ..... I thought you had a old one laying around.....

That's one reason I told you not to order a cam before you split the engine.....

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!


#144

Mkala

Mkala

Following this thread but this looks that is a problem not that easy to spot... :confused2:

If the manifold is the problem, no easy way to test it I think ? otherwise a suggestion would have already been made here


#145

B

bertsmobile1

You test the manifold by running the engine then liberally spraying with WD 40 , Marvel Mystery oil, light machine oil or a similar product from a trigger pack, not a spray can.
You work the governor so the engine is accelerating & decelerating to get good manifold vacuum.
If there is a crack the oil gets drawn in & burned in the engine .
The engine speed will change and you will get oil smoke from the exhaust.
Once you know you have a leak, you go back a repeat the saturation a littl bit at a time till you find the hole.
Not really difficult.


#146

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Mkala said:
Following this thread but this looks that is a problem not that easy to spot... :confused2:

If the manifold is the problem, no easy way to test it I think ? otherwise a suggestion would have already been made here
Click to expand...

Actually Mon Ami.... he did try spraying around the fitted areas to check..... There is a hair line crack and / or warpage compounding an air leak after the carb......

Time will tell ..............

Plus tard ..........


#147

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

bertsmobile1 said:
You test the manifold by running the engine then liberally spraying with WD 40 , Marvel Mystery oil, light machine oil or a similar product from a trigger pack, not a spray can.
You work the governor so the engine is accelerating & decelerating to get good manifold vacuum.
If there is a crack the oil gets drawn in & burned in the engine .
The engine speed will change and you will get oil smoke from the exhaust.
Once you know you have a leak, you go back a repeat the saturation a littl bit at a time till you find the hole.
Not really difficult.
Click to expand...

I agree with you Bert on a hand sprayer with some MMO in it or WD 40 all around it, up the side, around the back and on all the ends......

He hasn't said if it was from a spray or hand spray though.... He did mention he did it all over..... We will see soon he is in your neck of the woods so to speak .......


#148

B

bertsmobile1

What people miss is you really have to saturate the entire area all over which is one reason why you need a trigger pack.
It s not as easy as it sounds particularly on the inside & underside.

The other reason is eyebrows are a not a fashion statement and the propellants are all highly volatile.

You also have to work the throttle .
a delerating engine will suck harder through the carb and of course there is the mechanical vibrations.
I have seen a customer spray a fine mist from 3 feet away claiming to have done the test.
He thought I was having a piece of him when I told him it was nothing more than a bad gasket.
Doing the test twice is also a good idea.
Once on a cold engine and again on a hot engine.


#149

N

Neo7

Thanks Bert,

I still have my eyebrows :laughing: and will be back with an update after sourcing an Ali manifold, mounting screws and gaskets :thumbsup:

All the best gents.
Neo


#150

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Neo7 said:
Thanks Bert,

I still have my eyebrows :laughing: and will be back with an update after sourcing an Ali manifold, mounting screws and gaskets :thumbsup:

All the best gents.
Neo
Click to expand...

Neo.................. Before you order a manifold try something that might work........ Get 4 of those gaskets that are used for the aluminum intake..... On each side use 2 gaskets.... Don't use the O rings when you try this.....

This might save you some Monopoly money LOL.... If it don't then you got a hair line crack somewhere .........

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!


#151

N

Neo7

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:
Neo.................. Before you order a manifold try something that might work........ Get 4 of those gaskets that are used for the aluminum intake..... On each side use 2 gaskets.... Don't use the O rings when you try this.....

This might save you some Monopoly money LOL.... If it don't then you got a hairline crack somewhere .........

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!
Click to expand...

Hi Boudreaux,
I've actually gone ahead and placed my orders for the Ali manifold and another gasket set. B&S in Australia have HUGE delivery delays so I have to wait 2 or 3 weeks for delivery from the US and Asia anyway. If I'd ordered just the port gaskets and they didn't work that would have ment another 2-3weeks delay. So best to bite the bullet now :laughing:

Bert, I ended up ordering the manifold from the US because I couldn't find one here. Apparently the Ali manifold are still fitted to the professional series B&S engines.

Lets see how we go with this next step in 2 or 3 weeks time ....Thanks for thinking of me :thumbsup:
Neo


#152

B

bertsmobile1

Yes B & S Australia are a joke.
I ordered a 10Amp stator 15 weeks ago and it is still on back order
Finally bought one from China for $ 25 delivered as compared to $ 70 + freight from Briggs .

One of the things that killed the British bike industry was the failure to keep an adequate parts inventory.
This forced dealers to seek out after market parts and the after market parts companies actually made better parts than the factory did.
This then cut off money flow in the off season and left the dealers in a bad way financially so they had to start looking at other motorcycles to suppliment their income.

The parts supply problem is forcing people to abandon Briggs engines full stop particularly a new Honda clone is less than repairing the Briggs & the Chonda is there on the shop floor where as the Briggs parts will arrive on the 12th of never.


#153

N

Neo7

Completely agree Bert... And in today's market it's gonna to happen so much faster than it did for the British Motorbike industry lol!


#154

Mkala

Mkala

Every company play this game at different level, because the financial guy don't want to have money sleeping on shelves. And when they go too far its a big issue for everybody to source parst and live on this business :thumbdown:

But I agree with you, the price of Chonda and the quantity of available parts is awesome - and if you find seller that ship from Asia with DHL, FedEx or similar its quite fast !
Even if this not that bad with B&S for where I live.


#155

N

Neo7

Hi Bert, where can I find these Honda clones?

All the best.
Neo


#156

B

bertsmobile1

At any of the tradies tool stores .
Sydney tools, (suburb ) Tool Box, Gas Weld, etc etc etc.
They have names like Millers Falls , Ross, Atco, Pioneer, etc etc on them, usually with an American flag somewhere trying to pretend they are USA made.
Dave at Charmhaven ( DMC ) does Loncin's really cheap.
I can do you a good price on Kawasaki, selected models and of course Michael at Londondery will have a lot of USA engines at reasonable prices.
If you want to be frightened, ring your friendly B & S dealer & get a price on a new B & S then do the same for an equivalent Kohler.
make sure you have taken your calm pills & are sitting down when you do.


#157

N

Neo7

bertsmobile1 said:
At any of the tradies tool stores .
Sydney tools, (suburb ) Tool Box, Gas Weld, etc etc etc.
They have names like Millers Falls , Ross, Atco, Pioneer, etc etc on them, usually with an American flag somewhere trying to pretend they are USA made.
Dave at Charmhaven ( DMC ) does Loncin's really cheap.
I can do you a good price on Kawasaki, selected models and of course Michael at Londondery will have a lot of USA engines at reasonable prices.
If you want to be frightened, ring your friendly B & S dealer & get a price on a new B & S then do the same for an equivalent Kohler.
make sure you have taken your calm pills & are sitting down when you do.
Click to expand...

Wow Bert, you are full of great information. :thumbsup:
I'd seen those Millers Falls engines but a B&S retailer told me they have weak crankshaft?
DMC is 30mins drive from me and I've been there 2 or 3 times to buy belts ..... Small world lol!


#158

B

bertsmobile1

The biggest problem with Chondas is parts.
The shop will tell you "Honda parts will fit "
What they do not tell you is WHICH Honda parts will fit.
Thus finding the correct parts can be a bunfight.

A mower engine is a pretty low tech piece of kit.
Think about what a 500cc single motorcycle puts out then look at the output of your mower.
Because it is governed it gets less stress again.
The only shock you put on it is turning the blades on & off.

So as much as I hate to say it, most of the knock off engines seem to be reasonable.
having said that it can be a lottery and you could be the person who gets stuck with the total dud engine.
Big Boys Toys also bring in a lot of funny branded engines.

Many of these have several several brand name stickers , one on top of the other.
Lifan , Ducar & Loncin all export engines to Australia.
Loncin now have a warehouse & parts distribution network.
Gripskies now sell Loncin parts, mainly for Toro repairs but the inventory increases on a daily basis and just about every workshop has an account with RGS.

I predict they will over take B & S very shortly down here, although Kohler will be the first to fall over.
Most of the Kohler powered ride ons down here run Chinese made Kohlers as do all of the store branded mowers.


#159

Mkala

Mkala

You have "brand clone" as Loncin, they have support on website - this can help to find parts. Predator is well known too.

But other clones are quite the same... however you have to spend time to find part. I have an EM168F engine (supposed 5.5HP - clone of GX160). I bought a 168F carb with the correct shape and it fit perfectly. Aliexpress is a good place to shop parts for them.

About the weak camshaft I don't believe so... especial from B&S they started to put plastic cam shaft in their engines, and they fail. Most Clonda have metallic one.
Even if I love B&S. Even if Chinese sometimes do poor casting (aluminum that break like chocolate after few years)


#160

N

Neo7

Ok... I've fitted the Ali manifold with new gaskets aaaannnnnddddddd..... The fault is STILL THE SAME :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::confused2::confused2::confused2:

So unless someone can talk me out of it ...I... GIVE... UP!!!! :mad: And out of despair here's my current chain of thought ...
  • It's just a sneeze .... not a full backfire.
  • After 2 years of this sneezing I have stripped the engine down and uncovered minimal wear and tear.
  • The issue is not detectable when I wear earmuffs :laughing:
  • Sometime in life you just have to admit defeat :ashamed:

What's your thoughts gents?

All the best.
Neo


#161

Boobala

Boobala

Neo7 said:
Ok... I've fitted the Ali manifold with new gaskets aaaannnnnddddddd..... The fault is STILL THE SAME :thumbdown::thumbdown::thumbdown::confused2::confused2::confused2:

So unless someone can talk me out of it ...I... GIVE... UP!!!! :mad: And out of despair here's my current chain of thought ...
  • It's just a sneeze .... not a full backfire.
  • After 2 years of this sneezing I have stripped the engine down and uncovered minimal wear and tear.
  • The issue is not detectable when I wear earmuffs :laughing:
  • Sometime in life you just have to admit defeat :ashamed:

What's your thoughts gents?

All the best.
Neo
Click to expand...



WELLLLLL ... !!!SAQ.jpg...1530392614.jpg ,,, :laughing:..:laughing:


#162

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10



Or this....... :laughing::laughing:


#163

N

Neo7

Don't tempt me guys :laughing:

I mowed the lawn with this engine onboard my Husky yesterday. And was reminded of what brought this problem to a head last time. When the engine gets hot there a lot more popping going on and it gets to a point where the engine dies and wont start for 10 mins. So despite the indication of "problem found" I had with the Single Barrel Carb I can't help asking...
Am I really on the right track? ... Could this be an ignition issue???
So what haven't I checked, change or assumed is working OK? ..... The Flywheel???


#164

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

have you ever contacted Briggs about the issue???


#165

N

Neo7

Scrubcadet10 said:
have you ever contacted Briggs about the issue???
Click to expand...
No ... and Briggs support in Australia is total Dog Poo anyway. :thumbdown:


#166

B

bertsmobile1

Briggs support ?
Go to your nearest authorised Briggs dealer .
Briggs dealer , go to the equipment supplier
Equipment supplier, we have no customer service go see briggs


#167

N

Neo7

bertsmobile1 said:
Briggs support ?
Go to your nearest authorised Briggs dealer .
Briggs dealer , go to the equipment supplier
Equipment supplier, we have no customer service go see briggs
Click to expand...
And I'd rather put the money into a Chonda!
BTW Bert...Is it possible to get a Chonda with a Long Drive Shaft (100mm/4inch)?... As my Husky needs that.


#168

Boobala

Boobala

Neo7 said:
Don't tempt me guys :laughing:

I mowed the lawn with this engine onboard my Husky yesterday. And was reminded of what brought this problem to a head last time. When the engine gets hot there a lot more popping going on and it gets to a point where the engine dies and wont start for 10 mins. So despite the indication of "problem found" I had with the Single Barrel Carb I can't help asking...
Am I really on the right track? ... Could this be an ignition issue???
So what haven't I checked, change or assumed is working OK? ..... The Flywheel???
Click to expand...

99cba128a97a5a9c718de72e47276374.jpg...313517aa32f371892b96016582e60f35.jpg


#169

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Boobala said:
View attachment 43001...View attachment 43002
Click to expand...

I think Boo uses pictures because he's too lazy to type :tongue::laughing::laughing:


#170

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZaoWTB_vww


#171

N

Neo7

Scrubcadet10 said:
I think Boo uses pictures because he's too lazy to type :tongue::laughing::laughing:
Click to expand...
Yes .... An explanation would be greatly appreciated Boo :smile:


#172

Boobala

Boobala

Neo7 said:
Yes .... An explanation would be greatly appreciated Boo :smile:
Click to expand...

PS_0159W_THING_HEAD.jpg ... Sometimes, a picture (or a poster) is worth a thousand words ! ... :laughing:..:laughing:


#173

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

idioms-a-picture-is-worth-a-thousand-words.png


#174

Boobala

Boobala

Scrubcadet10 said:
View attachment 43011
Click to expand...

PUPPY.gif .... :laughing:.:laughing:.:thumbsup:


#175

M

mikebarber

New guy here joined today I read "most" of the thread My 2 cents worth says a valve hanging in the valve guide getting worse as temps rise or a valve seat being loose at high temp I had the valve seat issue on a Wisconsin Robin running a pressure washer that I got used it ran very good until 1 day so I removed the head and a bunch of center punch marks around the valve seat told me what had been going on so I added a few more and it has been fine ever since I know it will happen again and when it does I will get out my punch Joined to search for info on my Intec twin Briggs going into a Hustler Fastrack that someone else started on and gave up never getting wiring connected to get it to run Gary Shelton Wa


#176

N

Neo7

Thanks Mike and welcome.... Always good to have fresh ideas but in this case (and I have been hold off telling everyone) I HAVE FIXED THE PROBLEM :thumbsup::biggrin::thumbsup::cool: ... Without using a sledge hammer :laughing:
I'm hesitating as I type this because this engine has given me the runaround for so Loooooonnnnng it's not funny :laughing:

You might recall back in Post #19 I asked "So is fixing the old carb really worth all the effort?" and I went out and bought a cheap Chinese Copy Carb.... Well that decision effectively brought us to Post #176!!:tongue: .... Boo you are a very wise man and I will take your advice far more seriously for ever more!!

Ok here's what happened... I decided I was going to fit a Single BBL Carb and manifold to this (24HP) engine. So in desperation (need of wide cut mower) I borrowed these from my 21HP John Deere and started looking for a Single BBL Carb and manifold on eBay and Mower Wreckers.... but had no luck with either.
Then I had the bright idea of fitting the Twin BBL Carb and manifold to the John Deere. I did that and what I got was old pop, pop, popping!!... So I had moved the same fault from one engine to the other. So then I thought could it be that the original fault was simply the (repeatedly tried and tested) old plastic manifold and the cheap Twin BBL Chinese Carb is also defective with exactly the same symptoms?
I managed to find the original Twin BBL Carb (which previously I'd come close to trashing!) and fitted it now with the new Ali Twin BBL Manifold .... And like a dream come true THE POPPING WAS GONE! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I don't regret rebuilding the engine (TWICE!). It's given many hours of service and a rebuild was needed sometime soon.
I don't regret buying parts I didn't need. I learnt a lot and knowledge is worth far more than money :rolleyes:


Lessons learned
  • Don't buy cheap Chinese Copy Carbs... Because they will leave you up sh*t creek without a paddel!!
  • Plastic Manifolds are sh*t ... Never againing will I have/leave one of these on an engine I own.
  • The guys on this forum are all great ... Thanks so much gents.
  • Boo is a wise wizard ... listen to Boo :smile:


Take care guys... and thanks again for all the effort you put into this.
Neo


#177

Boobala

Boobala

Neo7 said:
Thanks Mike and welcome.... Always good to have fresh ideas but in this case (and I have been hold off telling everyone) I HAVE FIXED THE PROBLEM :thumbsup::biggrin::thumbsup::cool: ... Without using a sledge hammer :laughing:
I'm hesitating as I type this because this engine has given me the runaround for so Loooooonnnnng it's not funny :laughing:

You might recall back in Post #19 I asked "So is fixing the old carb really worth all the effort?" and I went out and bought a cheap Chinese Copy Carb.... Well that decision effectively brought us to Post #176!!:tongue: .... Boo you are a very wise man and I will take your advice far more seriously for ever more!!

Ok here's what happened... I decided I was going to fit a Single BBL Carb and manifold to this (24HP) engine. So in desperation (need of wide cut mower) I borrowed these from my 21HP John Deere and started looking for a Single BBL Carb and manifold on eBay and Mower Wreckers.... but had no luck with either.
Then I had the bright idea of fitting the Twin BBL Carb and manifold to the John Deere. I did that and what I got was old pop, pop, popping!!... So I had moved the same fault from one engine to the other. So then I thought could it be that the original fault was simply the (repeatedly tried and tested) old plastic manifold and the cheap Twin BBL Chinese Carb is also defective with exactly the same symptoms?
I managed to find the original Twin BBL Carb (which previously I'd come close to trashing!) and fitted it now with the new Ali Twin BBL Manifold .... And like a dream come true THE POPPING WAS GONE! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I don't regret rebuilding the engine (TWICE!). It's given many hours of service and a rebuild was needed sometime soon.
I don't regret buying parts I didn't need. I learnt a lot and knowledge is worth far more than money :rolleyes:


Lessons learned
  • Don't buy cheap Chinese Copy Carbs... Because they will leave you up sh*t creek without a paddel!!
  • Plastic Manifolds are sh*t ... Never againing will I have/leave one of these on an engine I own.
  • The guys on this forum are all great ... Thanks so much gents.
  • Boo is a wise wizard ... listen to Boo :smile:


Take care guys... and thanks again for all the effort you put into this.
Neo
Click to expand...

AHHhhhh the PERSISTENCE & PATIENCE you put forth finally excelled in the end, hope the next time we hear you from U, its that, U enjoyed UR 4th of July BBQ !! ..:thumbsup:..:thumbsup:


#178

B

bertsmobile1

July is in the middle of winter so the only BBQ done down here s marshmellows on the fire.
And we are yet to be annexed by the USA so July 4 is just another working day down here.


#179

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

Boudreaux In Eunice La.

NEO NEO NEO.............. I thought you had the original carb on there all this time ...... I knew you had bought a chin chang carb but I thought you put it to the side.....

if I remember right I told you a few times to do a complete rebuild of that carb, and I think I sent you a link for a video......

Well I am certainly happy for you on getting this SAGA novel completed LOL..............

Don't be a stranger.... You have enough under your belt now to help a few people on here now and then .....

Plus Tard Mon Ami ~!~!


#180

N

Neo7

It's funny Boo but my hundreds of hours of experiences and diagnostic techniques with motorbikes actually lead me astray with this Mower Engine .... Goes to show that there's always more to learn :laughing:
Will catch you guys soon :thumbsup:


#181

suparoood

suparoood

Hey Neo7! I just read through this entire story. I feel your pain as I'm going through it now as well, other than I can get my parts quickly! I'm seeing that you basically went through the same hell I am currently going through, though my pop popping occasionally is louder than a sneeze, and can be a pretty good backfire. If I understand your post #176, you had 2 problems correct? Basically the manifold was the fault originally, but you couldn't find that as the issue, because your cheapo replacement carb was also garbage, and spray around intake didn't show results? So once you reused the original carb on the new manifold, the problem went away? If so this suggests it was the original problem (as well as the OEM carb maybe needing cleaning/rebuild etc.).

In a nutshell
1. OEM carb needed rebuild/cleaning
2. Manifold leaked somewhere somehow, but didn't show up with spray (same as mine - and I've done this test countless times in automotive, I'm confident I'm doing it correctly)
3. Cheap carb was crap and hid the fact that you actually fixed it with a new aluminum intake?

I have purchased a carb from JD dealer, which is a briggs part, so I highly doubt this is an issue like yours was. But I'm not a fan of the plastic intake, nor the O ring on it. I just want to be sure that I understood you fix as appropriately as possible. And is there a chance you or anyone here has a part number for this manifold?


#182

B

bertsmobile1

IT is all about making the engines cheaper and that is because Joe Public is too cheap for his own good.
The problem with most of the plastic manifolds I have come across is they have been done up way too tight
When that happens the flange will warp when the manifold gets hot.
There is a reason why the bolts have locktite on them and not lock washers.


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