Toro Timesaver 3200 16hp Toro engine failure

[Rivets]

I don't have a credibility problem here or where I work, but you seem to. I have worked in this industry for 50+ years and while teaching worked directly which major equipment and engine companies. You were an auto tech and you saw a problem, but just let it go on and get worse instead of looking for the cause. You don't want to pay a pickup and delivery charge when the problem first occurs, but will put it your pick when it gets bad. I have worked with Toro many times on units that were out of warranty and in my experience a good service tech, documented problem, and Toro support will work together to solve problems at little or no cost to the customer. Honey works better than vinegar works better when trying to resolve these problems, and with reasonable people the odds go up. I'm willing to bet your original problem was the result of cylinder head problem, which I our shop would have cost about $125. I'll also bet Toro would have covered all or most of this, for a good customer and dealer.

Finally because a teacher needs to work with every student, no matter how they act; Briggs engines do not have a 9V alternator on their engines for charging. They use a few different types of 12V stator and voltage regulator systems, depending on the size and model of engine. Maybe I don't need to tell of this as you already know that a 9V system will never keep a 12V battery charge properly. Also, need to warn you that depend on which engine you ordered, major alterations may be in order due to muffler size and configuration.

 

[MTBerJim]

I don't have a credibility problem here or where I work, but you seem to. I have worked in this industry for 50+ years and while teaching worked directly which major equipment and engine companies. You were an auto tech and you saw a problem, but just let it go on and get worse instead of looking for the cause. You don't want to pay a pickup and delivery charge when the problem first occurs, but will put it your pick when it gets bad. I have worked with Toro many times on units that were out of warranty and in my experience a good service tech, documented problem, and Toro support will work together to solve problems at little or no cost to the customer. Honey works better than vinegar works better when trying to resolve these problems, and with reasonable people the odds go up. I'm willing to bet your original problem was the result of cylinder head problem, which I our shop would have cost about $125. I'll also bet Toro would have covered all or most of this, for a good customer and dealer.

Finally because a teacher needs to work with every student, no matter how they act; Briggs engines do not have a 9V alternator on their engines for charging. They use a few different types of 12V stator and voltage regulator systems, depending on the size and model of engine. Maybe I don't need to tell of this as you already know that a 9V system will never keep a 12V battery charge properly. Also, need to warn you that depend on which engine you ordered, major alterations may be in order due to muffler size and configuration.

You keep saying for a "good customer" I'd love to hear how you define good customer verses a bad customer? I suspect it is someone who is willing to bend over and let you charge them whatever outrageous fees for something they can do themselves.

Have you ever tried to drag a ZT mower into the bed of a pick up? I saved all the receipts from the parts I bought, documented the dates and the service done. It's bad enough a Toro oil filter is $16 effing dollars, I'd really love for you to try to defend that cost.
It's obvious, from your tone, in your mind no one but you're shop is qualified to do any service on a machine.

I guess I should also assume the seat pressure switch I had to replace, you know the one--the flimsy piece of plastic under the seat I replaced in the 3rd year was also was also user error? I obviously sit in the seat wrong, am I correct?

How about the bagger cover, the one that bowed out on the center on the front side, it allowed the grass clippings to cover the lawn in such a nice even layer? That my fault as well?

How about the cover for the mulching attachment, the one that wouldn't fit in the mower deck bc the mounting tab was riveted upside down? My dealer had to order a replacement b4 I even left this shop with my brand new mower. I know my fault as well.


Dam you pick nits, I wrote 9 volts, I meant amps. Opps-----Get a life.


You assume I'm not reasonable, I'm guessing you think I start an argument with everyone I meet, It's just not the case. I've been on both sides of the service desk I feel for the guys working in unairconditioned shops, having to trudge out in the snow, having to work on dirty equipment.


You on the other hand admitted to being a teacher and it would seem a shop owner as well, when was the last time you admitted to being wrong about anything?
You have students, teacher is always right, the guys that work for you, well we can guess who wins any time there is a difference of opinion in that situation.

I'm going to make this easy for you, all I ask is you go away from this thread, be a voyeur if it make you happy---but don't comment any more----Okay?

You are right, it's all my fault Toro makes the best in the whole world, nothing has ever been better and nothing ever will. You know everything, you always have the right answers to any question ever asked by anyone---ever.

Better now? Just go the eff away!

 

[NorthBama]

I don't have a credibility problem here or where I work, but you seem to. I have worked in this industry for 50+ years and while teaching worked directly which major equipment and engine companies. You were an auto tech and you saw a problem, but just let it go on and get worse instead of looking for the cause. You don't want to pay a pickup and delivery charge when the problem first occurs, but will put it your pick when it gets bad. I have worked with Toro many times on units that were out of warranty and in my experience a good service tech, documented problem, and Toro support will work together to solve problems at little or no cost to the customer. Honey works better than vinegar works better when trying to resolve these problems, and with reasonable people the odds go up. I'm willing to bet your original problem was the result of cylinder head problem, which I our shop would have cost about $125. I'll also bet Toro would have covered all or most of this, for a good customer and dealer.

Finally because a teacher needs to work with every student, no matter how they act; Briggs engines do not have a 9V alternator on their engines for charging. They use a few different types of 12V stator and voltage regulator systems, depending on the size and model of engine. Maybe I don't need to tell of this as you already know that a 9V system will never keep a 12V battery charge properly. Also, need to warn you that depend on which engine you ordered, major alterations may be in order due to muffler size and configuration.

I have read many of your post and admire your knowledge of small engines. I think you are right on target sir.

 

[bertsmobile1]

You keep saying for a "good customer" I'd love to hear how you define good customer verses a bad customer? I suspect it is someone who is willing to bend over and let you charge them whatever outrageous fees for something they can do themselves.

Have you ever tried to drag a ZT mower into the bed of a pick up? I saved all the receipts from the parts I bought, documented the dates and the service done. It's bad enough a Toro oil filter is $16 effing dollars, I'd really love for you to try to defend that cost.
It's obvious, from your tone, in your mind no one but you're shop is qualified to do any service on a machine.

I guess I should also assume the seat pressure switch I had to replace, you know the one--the flimsy piece of plastic under the seat I replaced in the 3rd year was also was also user error? I obviously sit in the seat wrong, am I correct?

How about the bagger cover, the one that bowed out on the center on the front side, it allowed the grass clippings to cover the lawn in such a nice even layer? That my fault as well?

How about the cover for the mulching attachment, the one that wouldn't fit in the mower deck bc the mounting tab was riveted upside down? My dealer had to order a replacement b4 I even left this shop with my brand new mower. I know my fault as well.


Dam you pick nits, I wrote 9 volts, I meant amps. Opps-----Get a life.


You assume I'm not reasonable, I'm guessing you think I start an argument with everyone I meet, It's just not the case. I've been on both sides of the service desk I feel for the guys working in unairconditioned shops, having to trudge out in the snow, having to work on dirty equipment.


You on the other hand admitted to being a teacher and it would seem a shop owner as well, when was the last time you admitted to being wrong about anything?
You have students, teacher is always right, the guys that work for you, well we can guess who wins any time there is a difference of opinion in that situation.

I'm going to make this easy for you, all I ask is you go away from this thread, be a voyeur if it make you happy---but don't comment any more----Okay?

You are right, it's all my fault Toro makes the best in the whole world, nothing has ever been better and nothing ever will. You know everything, you always have the right answers to any question ever asked by anyone---ever.

Better now? Just go the eff away!

A good customer ring you up with a problem and does not try to lay blame on the mower &/or workshop.
They understand that factory workers, mower mechanics and they themselves are mear mortals and thus all capable of making mistakes.
They tell you exactly what happened and appreciate that in order to provide a service to the customer the workshop has to run at a profit.
The understand that they only get what they pay for and as such most mowers are POS built down to a price not up to a quality.
All of the high quality big volume manufacturers have closed down so the cheap skate population now have to buy either a commercial machine or from a botique maker to get a top class mower.
A good customer understands the logistical costs of ordering, testing, warehousing, distributing and final retailing makes low volume products like EFFING oil filters dearer at the dealer who might use 30 or so a week if they are big single brand franchise or less then 5 if they are a multi brand franchise, where as the the auto parts store who sells 300 oil filters a week so will get a better buying price, & shipping price than the dealer.
I keep 1 of each & every OEM branded filters, in case a customer asks for a branded oil filter and fit mostly after market filters because most customers want cheap.
There is $ 800 wholesale worth of oil filters sitting on my shelves and I threw out $ 300 worth because they had started to rust and then had to spend another few hours oiling & wrapping the remainder in packing film.
None of these costs are recoverable. And there is a big cost to me as that same $ 800 could have been turned over a dozen times if sunk into repairing & reselling used mowers.
A maker branded oil filter costs 3 times what an aftermarket one does because I use 50 times more aftermarket filters so can buy them in bulk (144 ) boxes and it cost the same $ 15 to ship a single oil filter in a branded box in a protective carton as it does to ship the bulk box of 144 loose filters.

There is next to no profit in making domestic lawn mowers any more which is why so many of them are made in China or Mexico.
A single warranty repair can wipe out the profits from a 1/2 dozen sales and in the time I have been in business only 1 of the 50 or so "claimed" warranty repairs were genuine as I used to service the customers old mowers so have a fair idea about how they get treated and being trained in Metallurgy have a very keen eye for failed parts yet whenever there is a chance that it is genuine Toro ( I am not a lisenced TORO dealer ) came to the party and this included all the mowers that were privately imported from the USA and sold from the back of a truck ( literally ) when the A $ went over parity with the USA $. While thy did not cover my servicing fees they did provide replacement parts grattis including for models that were not imported into Australia by them.

OTOH, customers who drive in yelling & screaming usually end up driving back out with the mower still in their ute.
My first test is never to drop everything and come out , except for commercial customers, as no one ever dies because their grass did not get cut.
Customers who whinge & bitch about my service / repair bills get written off the books, particularly as they are generally the ones who could pay the bill with the small change in their pockets so they can go to the branded dealer & pay 3 times my labour fees and for every part, right down the every nut , bolt washer & pin, nicely computer invoiced. And funny enough they are always the ones who take a month to pay for an on site service.

 

[Rivets]

Can't go away now, to many people are following this thread to see what happens next. I have to correct many of the assumptions you make about me, Briggs and the small engine repair industry.
First, if you read my profile you will see that I am not a shop owner, but work for a family dealership which has been in business for over 60 years and supported the small engine program where I taught. I'm one of the guys who works in the shop, outside the shop, in a customers barn, and under a tractor in a homeowners yard covered with dog dodo. Each of the employees at this shop take pride and ownership in their work, that's why we used the term our shop. In this industry you don't last that long by offering poor service and cheap products. The small engine dealership and repair industry, just like any industry, has a few bad apples which some view as the norm. There are far more good guys than bad, blaming the entire industry, because of your bad experience is not fair to anyone. I'll bet you would even agree with that. Our price for your oil filter 120-4276 is $12.65, I suppose that is too high also. Second, how is anyone supposed to know you mean amps not volts. For you information, Briggs has 11 different charging systems on their engines, depending on where they are being used. They range for .5 Amps to 16 Amps, not 9 Amps as you posted. Third, if you know so much about me you would know that I will readily admit and post so, when I have made mistakes on this forum and at the shop, without excuses or blaming someone else. Finally, I'm proud to be a retired teacher, who has help prepare thousands of students prepare themselves for the world of work. Even Lee Iacocca saw this when he said; "In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be teachers and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have."

 

[MTBerJim]

Well it would seem I'm the bad guy here, not to surprised. As you can see I talked bad about a toro and the 2 guys that are toro dealers don't like it. You can read what they've posted, it couldn't possibly be that toro that is cutting corners to the point that they are producing garbage and relying on the reputation from yrs passed.

I didn't get the thing out of the dealers lot w/o running into something that wasn't right. It wasn't me that found the issue it was the dealer, he was showing me how to place the cover on the mower deck so the machine could be used for mulching. Was it his fault--no, did he take care of it----had the replacement next week. Unlike the guys above would have you believe, no yelling, no harsh words.
I didn't have any contact with them again until after the 2 years and the mower started to consume oil and puff blue on start up. Gathered up my receipts and service records complete with the hrs put on the machine when the service was done. Only question they asked was, "so we didn't service it"? His attude changed and next words out of his mouth were $100 to pick it up, any work we do is at ur cost, it's beyond warranty---I doubt Toro will do anything for you---but we'll try. my reply was ok thanks, let me think about it, again no yelling no harsh words. Never went back.

At that point contacted toro, was told sorry to hear it's giving you trouble, but the warranty period has expired, nothing we can do.

I'd decided to use it till it goes. Along the way had to repair the cover for the bagger use it in the fall mostly to clean up the leaves. The plastic bowed out along the front edge, so a good bit of what was sucked up ended back on the lawn from the opening it formed. Also the pressure switch in the seat failed as well in the 3rd year, I'd be riding along mowing and the thing would just shut off, I'd get up wiggle the switch and it would start again, 5-10 minutes the whole process would have to be repeated, yes that was also done at my cost.
Last year when the valves failed I contacted a different dealer, he volunteered that if I could get it to him I could save the charge of having his guy pick up my machine, off to a good start. In hindsight I should have done then what I'm doing now, just buy and engine and replace it. Money wasted, the repair was more than 1/2 what the new motor cost. Not a bad bunch of guys. That was a bad choice on my part, spent the rest on last season adding oil 2x every time I mowed my lawn, It looked like smoke screen for and old James Bond movie
I'm so disgusted with the whole thing, I didn't even take it out of the shed this spring.

This has been my experience with this unit, if you are thinking of buying a toro I can't suggest strongly enough that you look elsewhere. This is not your daddy's toro. There is no reason why a motor should self destruct in 91.4 hrs

Don't say you were not given a fair warning

After the warm welcome I was given, this thread went down hill pretty quickly. I'm just not inclined to give any information to the toro dealers, having said that.

If you are in a similar situation as I am, please feel free to contact me via PM or email an I will be happy to share what I had to do to retrofit the Biggs & Stratton to the timeCUTTER.

 

[bertsmobile1]

WRONG WRONG WRONG.
I am an indepenant mower mechanic. Not affiliated with any brand of mowers.
The only mower I sell are used ones that I have rebuilt and most of them would be in the 10 to 20 year old bracket because most of the modern ones are only built to last a few years.
It is winter now & I am still running at 2 weeks.
The big box stores in town are all running at 1 or 2 days.
Before becoming a mower mechanic I ran warehouses & a small transport company.
So I did try & get you to see why branded oil filter is a bit more expensive than one from a auto store but it would appear that your mind is well & truely shut.
Considering most mowers get a new filter every second year I pity you who is so poor or mean that the extra $ 5.00 is beyond you capacity to pay physically or mentally.

People like you ARE the reason why most mowers now days are designed to be cheap rather than good.
Too stingy for your own good or that of the entire nation.
Next you will be bitching because everything is made in China.

This forum is set up to help people which we do quite well.
If you don't like it hee I suggest you go somewhere else where every one says "howdy partner" and all sort of other nicesities but offer zerro actual help

 

[NorthBama]

WRONG WRONG WRONG.
I am an indepenant mower mechanic. Not affiliated with any brand of mowers.
The only mower I sell are used ones that I have rebuilt and most of them would be in the 10 to 20 year old bracket because most of the modern ones are only built to last a few years.
It is winter now & I am still running at 2 weeks.
The big box stores in town are all running at 1 or 2 days.
Before becoming a mower mechanic I ran warehouses & a small transport company.
So I did try & get you to see why branded oil filter is a bit more expensive than one from a auto store but it would appear that your mind is well & truely shut.
Considering most mowers get a new filter every second year I pity you who is so poor or mean that the extra $ 5.00 is beyond you capacity to pay physically or mentally.

People like you ARE the reason why most mowers now days are designed to be cheap rather than good.
Too stingy for your own good or that of the entire nation.
Next you will be bitching because everything is made in China.

This forum is set up to help people which we do quite well.
If you don't like it hee I suggest you go somewhere else where every one says "howdy partner" and all sort of other nicesities but offer zerro actual help

:thumbsup:

 

[Rivets]

Again I see that you didn't understand what I posted. Like Bert, I AM NOT A DEALER. Just a service tech who is on this forum to help those who are willing to listen. I guess that makes me the bad guy, because I pass on what I have learned through experience and at the shop charge for it. Here we offer it for free, but it is up to members to use that info at their own discretion. Good luck in your repower and when you are finished please post back to show us how easy it went. As service techs we are always learning from each unit we work on, it really doesn't matter who it comes from.