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Toro Time Cutter SS4225 Wont Turn Over

#1

W

wllmsamy

Almost two year old Toro SS4225 Time Cutter with 22.5hp commercial engine has started to become impossible to start since last fall. Turn the key to start and starter solenoid clicks rapidly, notice the fly wheel cover starts to move but nothing.
1. Checked the battery voltage, 13.4v+/-
2. Check starter solenoid, listen and fell for clicking noise
3. Check voltage at the input side of solenoid, 13v
4. Check voltage at side connected to starter with key turned to start position, 12.8v
5. Even though solenoid seemed to be ok tried shorting the voltage across solenoid, same results starter engages but does not turn flywheel at all
6. Removed engine flywheel shroud/cover and turn engine over by hand, some resistance most likely compression
7. Tried to start again, same results
8. Repeated turning engine over by hand and try to start again, this time started.
9. Let engine run a few minutes to charge battery up a little and then shut off
10. Turn key to restart, no issues started up fine.
11. Replace engine flywheel shroud/cover and park in building
12. Two days later try to start and same issue, have to remove shroud/cover and repeat process
13. Purchased new solenoid and battery just to rule out and same issues.

Why must the engine be turned over by hand when cold, is the starter that much of a POS, I had it bench tested at a Toro shop and was told it was ok.


#2

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

if you take the spark plug(s) out, will it crank over?
i'm suspecting the valves are out of adjustment. however, i think if you can turn the engine by hand, the starter should be able too.
Did the toro shop test the starter under load? you may have to take it to parts store like o'riellys and ask them to test it, FREE.


#3

W

wllmsamy

Scrubcadet10 said:
if you take the spark plug(s) out, will it crank over?
i'm suspecting the valves are out of adjustment. however, i think if you can turn the engine by hand, the starter should be able too.
Did the toro shop test the starter under load? you may have to take it to parts store like o'riellys and ask them to test it, FREE.
Click to expand...
I have not taken spark plugs out to try, the bench test was done in back to where I could not see but I did hear it working and as fast as he had it working I would say it was without load. Is it normal to have to adjust the valves on this type engine? Once I have it started and its warmed up the starter has no problem re-starting it after shut off many times, its only after it sits for couple days that seems the starter can not fully turn flywheel over as you can see it slightly moving before starting to make clicking noise.


#4

Scrubcadet10

Scrubcadet10

Valves are usually adjusted periodically at X hours depending on the manufacturer.
but since it runs good when it starts. it is probably not the case.
try cranking it with the plugs out.


#5

S

slomo

Check your grounds.Most people never give them a thought.

slomo


#6

A

a022mil

I believe you have a 3 yr warranty , can not a dealer figure out what is wrong with your mower, I have the same exact mower, any problem’s, the dealer has taken care of it, I do not have too worry.


#7

W

wllmsamy

a022mil said:
I believe you have a 3 yr warranty , can not a dealer figure out what is wrong with your mower, I have the same exact mower, any problem’s, the dealer has taken care of it, I do not have too worry.
Click to expand...
Ok good to know, will see about having it looked at.


#8

B

Born2Mow

Regardless of what your voltmeter says, your battery is DEAD. You can only test a battery with a Load Tester.


#9

7394

7394

Put jumper cables on it from another battery & re-test starting. But if yours is under warranty, be careful what you attempt at home.


#10

W

wllmsamy

Born2Mow said:
Regardless of what your voltmeter says, your battery is DEAD. You can only test a battery with a Load Tester.
Click to expand...
Battery taken out was tested at autozone and found to be good, even so still bought a brand new battery with same results.


#11

T

txmowman

I think 7394's suggestion it the best. I would first make sure valve lash is not too loose. This would put unnecessary demand on the starter. Then, I would try a jumper cable in place of the B+ cable from the battery to the starter. OEM's these days use smaller battery cables that don't deliver the amperage necessary for the starter to work properly. Some OEM's offer a starter assist relay kit for similar issues. Good luck.


#12

Fish

Fish

I second that you should look at all of the connections, especially the ground cable. I also recommend trying to start in a dark garage, and if you see any sparks, that is a problem location.


#13

Fish

Fish

Rapidly clicking makes me think that it is a poor connection.


#14

T

toolman034

Fish said:
Rapidly clicking makes me think that it is a poor connection.
Click to expand...


#15

T

toolman034

Sounds like a dirty or corroded connection from sitting. You need to clean them and give that a try at the battery and the other end of both cables also cable between starter and solenoid if you have one.


#16

S

Stokdgs

So, you got the new battery - did you charge it up before trying to start your machine?
What was the voltage on the new battery when you bought it?
I put float chargers on all my car batteries, for example, and never have issues with batteries until a cell dies years down the road..
I would take my Fluke Meter out and measure the battery before, and then after, as it is trying to start the machine, to see what the load reading is..
Good luck with this !


#17

G

grc212

wllmsamy said:
I have not taken spark plugs out to try, the bench test was done in back to where I could not see but I did hear it working and as fast as he had it working I would say it was without load. Is it normal to have to adjust the valves on this type engine? Once I have it started and its warmed up the starter has no problem re-starting it after shut off many times, its only after it sits for couple days that seems the starter can not fully turn flywheel over as you can see it slightly moving before starting to make clicking noise.
Click to expand...
I have the same mower also 2 yrs old, all good advice from everyone but I'm wondering about rotating the cold engine by hand and it starts makes me think one of those safety switches is about to go TU or needs adjusted...


#18

VRR.DYNDNS>BIZ

VRR.DYNDNS>BIZ

wllmsamy said:
Almost two year old Toro SS4225 Time Cutter with 22.5hp commercial engine has started to become impossible to start since last fall. Turn the key to start and starter solenoid clicks rapidly, notice the fly wheel cover starts to move but nothing.
1. Checked the battery voltage, 13.4v+/-
2. Check starter solenoid, listen and fell for clicking noise
3. Check voltage at the input side of solenoid, 13v
4. Check voltage at side connected to starter with key turned to start position, 12.8v
5. Even though solenoid seemed to be ok tried shorting the voltage across solenoid, same results starter engages but does not turn flywheel at all
6. Removed engine flywheel shroud/cover and turn engine over by hand, some resistance most likely compression
7. Tried to start again, same results
8. Repeated turning engine over by hand and try to start again, this time started.
9. Let engine run a few minutes to charge battery up a little and then shut off
10. Turn key to restart, no issues started up fine.
11. Replace engine flywheel shroud/cover and park in building
12. Two days later try to start and same issue, have to remove shroud/cover and repeat process
13. Purchased new solenoid and battery just to rule out and same issues.

Why must the engine be turned over by hand when cold, is the starter that much of a POS, I had it bench tested at a Toro shop and was told it was ok.
Click to expand...
Your engine when parked is filling the top of cylinder(s) with oil or gas. when you crank it over by hand or have run it and start it up soon after running, the oil or gas in the cylinder has been pushed out so the piston can travel full stroke. Both oil or gas or both cannot be compressed. Oil can get there if the oil level is high and or the plugs are downhill a bit and the oil level seeps by the rings when set for a while. If it is gas in the cylinders, the carb being gravity feed is over filling the carb float and getting into the cylinder as it sets or on the first roll over. Plugs will most likely but not positively wet if pulled. If after setting with plugs out and cranks, oil or gas may spit out the plug hole and a spark can ignite the gas and you know what that means, so a bit of caution. If it is valves, as another person suggested, plugs out will also alleviate the issue, since decompression action of properly adjusted valves is not a concern with the plugs out. Poor connections can also "repair" high resistance temporarily when heat and current attempt to push thru the poor connection or moisture adds to the resistance by increasing the corrosion. If 9 volts or more is at the starter terminal, then sufficient voltage is present at the starter to do the job as long as grounds are good. If 11 or more volts at the starter, then it may be not drawing enough to do the work. I only mention all these other possibilities since they are possible, yet your explanation of first attempt to crank and once thru top dead center or run, will crank pretty much tell my hydro lock story.


#19

J

jclaf

Hi guys,
I had this same problem with a Kohler Twin 22 hp and then again with a new 20 hp.
Did the whole dealer thing, all the connecting parts upgraded battery, solenoid, stronger starter....
Even bought an improved compression release. It only worked when the valves were adjusted perfectly. Adjustment only lasted a short time.
My solution was to remove the grate over the fan and EVERY TIME IT STOPS, back the engine up until it's against the cam.
The starter isn't capable of getting over the hump.
I gave up on the std. solutions and now I don't have to stress out whether or not it's going to work.
JCC


#20

P

packardv8

Two similar problems, easiest solution first.

I fought a similar no start problem and the solution was so simple I couldn't believe it. Even though it showed continuity on an ohmmeter, the OEM battery ground cable end had too much resistance under load. Cut it off, stripped another 1/2" to bare wire, cleaned it, crimped on a copper ring terminal and no more problems.

My 4235 has a Kohler V-Twin and there are two starters which can fit it. The original starter has no support bearing beyond the pinion gear. There is another starter, which actually costs less!!, which has a support bearing on the nose of the starter shaft. That's the one to get.

jack vines


#21

B

bertsmobile1

Because ZTR's wiring is more exposed to the elements it suffers more than tractor mowers wiring.
My diagnostic technique includes bypassing the mowers battery cables with booster leads .
Regularly find a cable that is corroded i the middle so will show 0 Ω with a meter & 12 V with a meter but will not pass enough current to crank the engine


#22

P

packardv8

bertsmobile1 said:
Because ZTR's wiring is more exposed to the elements it suffers more than tractor mowers wiring.
Click to expand...
Would that were true. I had as many wiring problems with Cub Cadet tractors as with the ZTR Toro. None of them use waterproof connectors on the switches and wiring.

jack vines


#23

B

bertsmobile1

Yes but the difference is the cub wiring tends to go 10 or so years then drive you mad when you run out of booze.
ZTR;s tend to go bad in a much shorter time


#24

S

slomo

packardv8 said:
Two similar problems, easiest solution first.

I fought a similar no start problem and the solution was so simple I couldn't believe it. Even though it showed continuity on an ohmmeter, the OEM battery ground cable end had too much resistance under load. Cut it off, stripped another 1/2" to bare wire, cleaned it, crimped on a copper ring terminal and no more problems.

My 4235 has a Kohler V-Twin and there are two starters which can fit it. The original starter has no support bearing beyond the pinion gear. There is another starter, which actually costs less!!, which has a support bearing on the nose of the starter shaft. That's the one to get.

jack vines
Click to expand...
"Cut it off, stripped another 1/2" to bare wire, cleaned it, crimped on a copper ring terminal and no more problems." (y)

Look into star grounding washers while you are at it.


#25

B

Born2Mow

Could be several things....
  • Cabling issues due to corrosion
  • Fuse issues
  • Safety switch interlock issues


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