Export thread

First post so please be gentle ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Alright folks, I found this old *** Toro Recycler on the side of the road, was bored as hell so took it home to try and revive it.
I've done just about everything I can imagine and I still can't get the damn thing to start. Here it is:

-Upon pull-starting, there is definitely pressure resistance, so I can conclude that the cylynder is pressurized.
-I have cleaned the cylinder from all carbon build-up.
-Spark is present.
-Old carb was siezed up I couldn't get into it, ordered a new one, so in theory carb shouldn't be a problem.
-Using fresh gasoline

From what I can tell, spark, pressure, mixture - the thing should start, right?
I'm convinced the problem must be with either a)carb or b) timing, however carb is new and timing seems correct.
Carb is new, so any advice on how to test if it is working properly (fuel being actually sucked through the venturi), or any other potential reasons the thing isn't starting?

Anything helps, I'm desperate at this point...

Ok first things first............. You made a great find.....

1st thing...... You said you cleaned carbon from the cylinder.... Out side or inside... ?? Inside of cylinders don't have carbon in them... The top of the piston does have that and the inside the head....

2nd thing..... You have spark... Ok did you put a new plug in ???

3rd thing.... You said it SEEMS to be in time.... That Mon Ami I would NOT trust since you found it on the curb.... I find a lot of trash mowers like you did and it was 1 of 2 things....

The carb was clogged up from being sat up all winter and the ethanol gas just screwed that up all the way... Maybe the fuel lines too... I change them often and buy it by the rolls...

Now the flywheel key is maybe another other main reason for that being on the curb....

That's might be the reason for your non starting issue....

Did it backfire ?? Did it pull the rope out of your hand ?? Is the bade bent that you can see ??

If the blade is screwed then you may have found the issue...

Those or the first things to look for in a mower like that... Hope this helps you out .....


Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!

Boudreaux In Eunice La. said:

Ok first things first............. You made a great find.....

1st thing...... You said you cleaned carbon from the cylinder.... Out side or inside... ?? Inside of cylinders don't have carbon in them... The top of the piston does have that and the inside the head....

2nd thing..... You have spark... Ok did you put a new plug in ???

3rd thing.... You said it SEEMS to be in time.... That Mon Ami I would NOT trust since you found it on the curb.... I find a lot of trash mowers like you did and it was 1 of 2 things....

The carb was clogged up from being sat up all winter and the ethanol gas just screwed that up all the way... Maybe the fuel lines too... I change them often and buy it by the rolls...

Now the flywheel key is maybe another other main reason for that being on the curb....

That's might be the reason for your non starting issue....

Did it backfire ?? Did it pull the rope out of your hand ?? Is the bade bent that you can see ??

If the blade is screwed then you may have found the issue...

Those or the first things to look for in a mower like that... Hope this helps you out .....


Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!

Click to expand...

Alright, thanks for the reply:

Yes I cleaned the piston head and the inside of the cylinder head.

I put in a new plug and a new ignition coil. Both I have tested to work perfectly.

There is one short fuel line from the tank to the carb, fuel flow is present and there is no debris in the carb to indicate a clogged fuel line.

Blade is not bent, however I removed it for troubleshooting the engine.

It did not backfire, no signs of even an attempted start/combustion.

Flywheel and pull-start mechanisms seem solid..I’ll check that and synchronization when I get home today.

Thanks again!

Before disassembling anything, try the following:

Remove spark plug and pour in a ~tablespoon of fresh gasoline.
Reinstall plug and attempt to start.
Should run for a few seconds.

If does not fire, you have an ignition issue.
If does run for a short burst, then you have an induction issue.

Russ2251 said:

Before disassembling anything, try the following:

Remove spark plug and pour in a ~tablespoon of fresh gasoline.
Reinstall plug and attempt to start.
Should run for a few seconds.

If does not fire, you have an ignition issue.
If does run for a short burst, then you have an induction issue.

Click to expand...

Or if it doesn’t fire I’ve put in too much gasoline; one tablespoon seems like a lot considering peak mixture is ~15:1 and this is a small 5hp cylinder (I don’t know exact cc’s)

Sounds very sketchy; to be honest I’ll try this as well as I have no better ideas.

Sounds very sketchy

Click to expand...

It's a very basic diagnostic tool and is done by the best of us at one time or another.:thumbsup:
Far safer than starting ether!!!:thumbdown::thumbdown:

Do not choke if using this method or will surly flood.

Even if there is some resistance in pulling to start, there may not be sufficient P.S.I. (90 or better)
in order to fire the engine off and run. You can pull your guts out at 70 P.S.I. and you'll be lucky
to get the engine to hit a lick, let alone run and have power. I'd do a compression check first,
then check valve clearances, and then check the flywheel for a crimped key just to be sure.
Get sufficient compression, good spark at the right time, and the right fuel/air mix and it should
start and run. Hope this helps. :thumbsup:

Also, check the exhaust system/muffler.
Mud dobbers will build nests anywhere----in fuel hoses sitting around, in muffler ports, etc.

The engine will not fire if it cannot exhaust (remember the banana or potato up the exhaust pipe gag??

BTW...for most of my adolescent and adult life, I stood 6"6".
I used to tell gawkers that my father was 4'1" and my mother 3'7" tall, making me the worlds TALLEST MIDGET !!

Ronno6 said:

Also, check the exhaust system/muffler.
Mud dobbers will build nests anywhere----in fuel hoses sitting around, in muffler ports, etc.

The engine will not fire if it cannot exhaust (remember the banana or potato up the exhaust pipe gag??

BTW...for most of my adolescent and adult life, I stood 6"6".
I used to tell gawkers that my father was 4'1" and my mother 3'7" tall, making me the worlds TALLEST MIDGET !!

Click to expand...

Exhaust is clean, so are all ports and hoses.

My std "it wont start" proceedure goes like this.

Fit an in like red neon tube spark tester in the HT line ( red so you can see it in the daylight )
remove the plug and replace it with a known good one.
While the plug is out give the cylinder an quick, short shot of carb cleaner ( a little kinder to the engine than starting fluid ).
Give it a pull.
No re flashes = duff coil, remove the kill wire & repeat.
Fires and runs a few seconds = bad fuel / fuel supply
fires once & once only = bad valve / valve timing.
Does not fire at all = ignition timing problem

Try the same again with the carb cleaner down carb throat.
No start , confirms a valve problem.
Backfire through carb = valve problem or induction air leak
Runs confirms fuel supply problem
backfire in muffler is to be expected from excess starting fluid.

From there you then look carefully at the area pointed to in the triage process above to do a proper diagnosis.
This takes all of about 2 to 3 minutes so is clean & quick.

After that i start pulling float bowls off, & blower housings etc etc etc.
Time is money as are parts & I don't have time to waste by fixing parts that are not broken in the first place.

Push mowers have a flat rate 1 hour labour charge and if I can diagnose & fix in less then 15 min I am a happy man.

Alright I’ve done the tablespoon thing with no success, fuel ejected through exhaust. Gonna test pressure and then if not that then timing. Anything in particular to look for when testing the timing? (I know how 4-stroke works so if something is blatantly wrong I’d know but I’ve looked at the timing before and found no issues, so are there any quirks I might be missing?

So you got no fire at all? Not even a backfire?

Russ2251 said:

So you got no fire at all? Not even a backfire?

Click to expand...

Nope, nothing. I can see the spark though, so it must be with pressure or timing I assume?

This is how I put gas in a carb for a test start....... I take a lighter fluid container, the ones for a BBQ. I put gas in that and can squirt it in almost any carb throat application... I have 1 each for 2 strokes and pure gas but 2 stroke works fine in a four stroke.........

Take the air shroud off and look at the slot both the flywheel and the crank shaft..... I have people tell me IT LOOKS GOOD, then I get to their house and there are 2 pieces a inch away from each other.... Ohhhhh they say... LOL.....

Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!

How are you checking for spark?

Russ2251 said:

How are you checking for spark?

Click to expand...

Pull the starter rope and cup my hand around the plug, and I can see and feel the spark.

Sometimes, on a weak/defective plug, compression stroke can blow out spark.
Try another known good plug.

Alright, I did a pressure test by screwing a gauge into where the spark plug was and giving the engine a few yanks. The needle didn't even move...
Either there is barely any pressure, which I find hard to believe (there is significant resistance to pull-starting) or the gauge is sketching out. Ill try again with a tire gauge which should be more sensitive.
(and yes, I threaded it on properly and tightly)

Thanks for all the help so far guys! No results yet but I'll attempt more tomorrow!

I used a similar gauge today on a weed whacker... It's a 100.00 dollar or more gauge though bought from a outboard dealership..... My buddy uses it all the time in his shop....

I got 50 to 60 pounds on that and that is not a good thing. It wants to hit and pop but, it's not enough for a weed eater...... We looked at the piston on it a while back and it looks new... So we bought a new carb... Nope nadda nothing so I guess the ring is shot or just stuck to the piston....

I think you might need to find a different compression gauge for that purpose..... Might give you a good reading.......

I am gonna make a video on my squirt can method for getting gas into a carb.... You gave me a good reason to make one...... Hey here in Cajun Country all we need to have a party is to drop a hat LOL ~!~!

Let us know Mon Ami ~!~!

Ok here's the video I made earlier............ Hope this helps ~!~!

https://youtu.be/LSf-pQ2_oIg

GiantMidget said:

View attachment 36798

Alright, I did a pressure test by screwing a gauge into where the spark plug was and giving the engine a few yanks. The needle didn't even move...
Either there is barely any pressure, which I find hard to believe (there is significant resistance to pull-starting) or the gauge is sketching out. Ill try again with a tire gauge which should be more sensitive.
(and yes, I threaded it on properly and tightly)

Thanks for all the help so far guys! No results yet but I'll attempt more tomorrow!

Click to expand...

Small engines all have some sort of decompression arangement on them.
Thus a strait compression reading at cranking speed is useless but if it keeps you amused continue doing it.
If you really want to waste a lot of time then adjust the valve clearences, the bigger they are the higher the compression reading will be

When you get bored chasing your tail round and round in circles let me know the answers to the first lot of questions I asked in post # 11
and if you are willing to do what you are asked then we shall proceed in a logical & methodical method to diagnose the reason why your engine will not start.
There is nothing mystical or magical in what I do, just a logical method.
Others have their methods and they work just as well.

You were getting a lot of hits so I laid off this thread till I saw you were going nowhere.

Back in Post No 3 you mentioned that you had removed the blade.
Is it still off ?
I ask this because very few engine will start without the extra momentum they get from the blade spinning.
This was a big problem when some dope decided they wanted blade clutches to avoid being sued when some retard pulls the cord with their thong clad foot under the deck.

One of the problems with public forums is every one has their own pet problem.
People skim through what has been written or worse still just the last post then chime in with their favourite problem, usually one that had them stumped for a long while.
There is nothing inherentally wrong with this . Other peoples experiences are valuable and should be added to your knowledge base and by law of averages some times they will hit the nail on the head first try.
However when you do these things daily you get a routine and the routine never fails, well rarely fails.
Most techs will have their own routines and we all do things in a sightly different order which is fine just so long as to go from A to Z and not A to X then back to B , flip over to Q pop back to C the A forgetting you have already been there.

A poor coil will spark in air but not inside the cylinder.
So if the coil is weak or has a bad ground you can get a nice big spark in air but nothing inside the cylinder.
This is the reason for the inline spark tester cause if it does not spark inside the cylinder the tester does not flash.
The carb /cleaner or lighter fluid as Bou likes to use is done to ensure you don't wet the plug and provide a non sparking ground path in the plug.
Ypu a;sp rarely get excess fuel outside the engine which can happen when pouring fuel down a plug hole.

And it takes energy to compress valve springs, a lot more than most would believe.
More than once an engine has come in with a broken rod and the owner was sure he had an electrical problem cause it was hard to pull.

I strongly suspect an ignition system issue. 90% of the trash finds that come across my bench are ignition related.
For S & G's... try another known good plug. The fact that you said you have spark, something should have happened
with the raw gas...even if timing is slightly out or you have bad valves.

Put the compression testers aside as they really aren't needed.

Remove plug and press a finger over plug hole and spin engine. You should not be able to hold back compression.
If there is difficulty in holding back compression at plug hole, then very likely it has enough to run.

If pressure feels lower than described, then valve action has to be verified. Meaning, do they completely open and close.
This can be done by removing breather cover and observing valve spring movement while slowly rotating engine with spark plug removed.
If valve operation cannot be verified in this manner, then head will have to be removed.

Check for sheared key by disassembling hardware over flywheel. Sheared key is the only thing that adversely affects ignition timing.