ARN Greencare
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I hate B&S products.
Starter Removal - turf tiger B&S 35 hp air cooled
- Thread starter Nishka
- Start date
I can't help but wonder if it's not the battery. I know, it's new and reading 12.6v, but that's actually marginal in my opinion. A fully charged 12 volt battery should read around 13V. Have you tried jump starting it?
I downloaded the manual from Vanguard--this is a Briggs and Stratton-- and it does not have any information on how to repair the starter or solenoid. Sounds like the Kawasaki manual is much better.
So, I learned that 12 volts to the starter post of the solenoid will spin the starter but we will not push the starter gear forward. 12 volts to the battery post of the starter plus 12 volts to the small blade connector (its a yellow wire) located between the two posts of the solenoid slams the starter gear forward and spins the motor. Looks like the starter and solenoid are good.
I'm going to replace the Starter relay even though I tested the old one and it appeared to work. Then, I'm guessing I've got to figure out if 12 volts is making it to the yellow wire that connects to the blade connector when the key is on.
Note: in Hawaii (island of Kauai) service options are limited. The only Scag dealer is so backed up that they can't even look at my machine for two weeks. Then, once they figure out what the problem is they have to order parts and that can take a couple of weeks. So, its at least a month. That is why I'm trying to figure this out myself. Very much appreciate the help form the forum.
12v is too low...
Edit: I've seen countless cases where people spent all sorts of time, replaced all sorts of parts and spend all sorts of money only to find that their battery terminals needed cleaning or their battery just wasn't putting out enough voltage.
Edit: I've seen countless cases where people spent all sorts of time, replaced all sorts of parts and spend all sorts of money only to find that their battery terminals needed cleaning or their battery just wasn't putting out enough voltage.
Last edited:
bertsmobile1
Lawn Royalty
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2014
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Put the starter back in but do not hook it up
Put your car ( or your car's battery ) next to it.
Run a jumper to the heavy + terminal on the starter solenoid and the other jumper lead to a good ground on the engine case.
If hooked up right, nothing should happen.
Now with a bit of hook up wire bridge the + terminal to the terminal where the yellow wire went.
If the engine cranks over normally, the starter is good.
Now do the exact same thing using the mowers battery.
If the engine cranks over normally the mowers battery is good.
Hook up the starter to the mowers wiring .
Leave the jumpers in place
turn the key
Engine cranks normally = starting circuit is good
Remove the ground jumper lead
Engine cranks over normally = ground wire is OK
Remove the + jumper
Engine cranks normally = power wire is OK
Because they are exposed to the elements, the power & ground cables on ZTR's suffer from corrosion.
I clean up the contact areas, bolt them up tight on a hot day in the sun so the connection is dry then paint them with liquid electrical tape to keep moisture out.
This includes the exposed ends of the battery leads.
Moisture can wick down the wire from where it is exposed then corrode the wire inside the insulation.
When you test a lead like this, it shows 0 ohms but when you try to push amps through it all it does is generate heat.
On a really damp place like Hawaii consider replacing both battery leads with tin plated marine cables and still slap the liquid electrical tape over all exposed contacts.
The stuff peels off really easily but will keep the area dry & prevent corrosion.
Put your car ( or your car's battery ) next to it.
Run a jumper to the heavy + terminal on the starter solenoid and the other jumper lead to a good ground on the engine case.
If hooked up right, nothing should happen.
Now with a bit of hook up wire bridge the + terminal to the terminal where the yellow wire went.
If the engine cranks over normally, the starter is good.
Now do the exact same thing using the mowers battery.
If the engine cranks over normally the mowers battery is good.
Hook up the starter to the mowers wiring .
Leave the jumpers in place
turn the key
Engine cranks normally = starting circuit is good
Remove the ground jumper lead
Engine cranks over normally = ground wire is OK
Remove the + jumper
Engine cranks normally = power wire is OK
Because they are exposed to the elements, the power & ground cables on ZTR's suffer from corrosion.
I clean up the contact areas, bolt them up tight on a hot day in the sun so the connection is dry then paint them with liquid electrical tape to keep moisture out.
This includes the exposed ends of the battery leads.
Moisture can wick down the wire from where it is exposed then corrode the wire inside the insulation.
When you test a lead like this, it shows 0 ohms but when you try to push amps through it all it does is generate heat.
On a really damp place like Hawaii consider replacing both battery leads with tin plated marine cables and still slap the liquid electrical tape over all exposed contacts.
The stuff peels off really easily but will keep the area dry & prevent corrosion.
Thanks very much for the comments and instructions.
A number of months ago, I jump started the Scag with my trucks (F250) big 12v battery. I was worried, since it was bigger, that it would push to much power through the Scags electronics and fry something. After I ran it for a while, the Scags battery was sufficient to start it (but, I new the Scag's battery was somewhat low). Then, when this problem surfaced a few weeks ago, I immediately decided it was time to change the battery and bought a new one. I tested it and it showed 12.6 volts. But, I didn't put it on a charger. And, I haven't tired starting it with my Truck's battery again. Will the larger battery damage something?
So, I agree, it could just be a battery. I'll charge the batter and I'll run the other tests on the starter and let you know. Keep your fingers crossed for me.
Excellent instructions on the liquid electrical tape.
A number of months ago, I jump started the Scag with my trucks (F250) big 12v battery. I was worried, since it was bigger, that it would push to much power through the Scags electronics and fry something. After I ran it for a while, the Scags battery was sufficient to start it (but, I new the Scag's battery was somewhat low). Then, when this problem surfaced a few weeks ago, I immediately decided it was time to change the battery and bought a new one. I tested it and it showed 12.6 volts. But, I didn't put it on a charger. And, I haven't tired starting it with my Truck's battery again. Will the larger battery damage something?
So, I agree, it could just be a battery. I'll charge the batter and I'll run the other tests on the starter and let you know. Keep your fingers crossed for me.
Excellent instructions on the liquid electrical tape.
Yeah I'd definitely charge the battery before doing anything else. I don't think the size of the battery matters at all - but I'm open to being corrected. It's still putting out the same voltage, just has a higher capacity. I routinely upgrade batteries on my vehicles and equipment and have never had an issue. In fact I added a whole extra battery to my truck.
You could try jumping with the truck if you don't have a charger and let the mower charge it during use. I usually charge my new batteries overnight on a 2 amp charge with my charger. Just because they're new doesn't mean they're fully charged. The charge disipates during storage.
You could try jumping with the truck if you don't have a charger and let the mower charge it during use. I usually charge my new batteries overnight on a 2 amp charge with my charger. Just because they're new doesn't mean they're fully charged. The charge disipates during storage.
Testing showed:
1. "Now with a bit of hook up wire bridge the + terminal to the terminal where the yellow wire went.
If the engine cranks over normally, the starter is good."
Starter cranked and solenoid fired the starter gear to the top of starter.
2. "Now do the exact same thing using the mowers battery.
If the engine cranks over normally the mowers battery is good."
Engine cranked....and, I put the mower batteries on the charger over night.
3. Was stopped at third test:
See attached photo taken just to the side of the starter mower. Battery positive is connected to starter. Battery negative post is attached to negative black wire leading to ground on the engine,. The yellow wire is not yet plugged into the starter. The connector plug in the photo is separated with the male blades on the left and the insertion (female) portion on the right.
Starting from the connector plug on the left with the male blades:
Key off - no volts on any connector;
Key on - 12.8 volts on the top left male connector. 12.8 volts on the bottom left male connector. No volts on the other two.
The connector plug (female) on the right:
The wire above the yellow wire (red?...I'm color blind) connects to the top left male blade of the connector plug on the left and is hot when the key is on. But, it isn't the yellow wire that is supposed to energize the solenoid.
The yellow wire connects to the second to the top left male blade of the connector plug on the left and is not hot when the key is on. So the yellow wire is not being energized.
This is the way it was when I unplugged the connector. Doesn't make sense. Where should the yellow wire connect? Where does that hot red wire go and should it bring the power back to the yellow wire.
Almost there....what do you guys think?
Attachments
I remembered something after I wrote my last reply.
I had the parking brake on and I had the handles out, but I forgot to put a weight in the seat to replicate a person sitting on the safety switch in the seat. I put a heavy battery on the seat and then found that key on, starting position, I was getting 12.7 volts to the starter...and, happily, it started.
Lessons learned:
1. New batteries may not be fully charged. And, for this mower 12.4 volts is not enough...12.7 to 12.8 worked on this mower.
2. Removing starter is not easy; but with the right extension, a mirror, and a long pick up tweezer sold with the mirror, it was easier to place the bolt buried deep in the engine.
3. Starter switch: in key on position, has to have voltage at the yellow post terminal.
4. Learned out to test a solenoid.
5. Learned that sanding all connections to remove corrosion probably helped this situation.
6. Learned that this forum is a very helpful place.
Finally, with this Scag, I'm intent on figuring out how to install a temperature gauge and a voltage gauge. It has an Amp gauge, but, I don't see how that is helpful.....also, after sitting for more than a week, the fuel pump won't pull gas into the carburetor and I have to disconnect the lines and pour some gasoline into those lines. That seems fixable with a descent pump?
Anyway...thanks again for all of the help.
I had the parking brake on and I had the handles out, but I forgot to put a weight in the seat to replicate a person sitting on the safety switch in the seat. I put a heavy battery on the seat and then found that key on, starting position, I was getting 12.7 volts to the starter...and, happily, it started.
Lessons learned:
1. New batteries may not be fully charged. And, for this mower 12.4 volts is not enough...12.7 to 12.8 worked on this mower.
2. Removing starter is not easy; but with the right extension, a mirror, and a long pick up tweezer sold with the mirror, it was easier to place the bolt buried deep in the engine.
3. Starter switch: in key on position, has to have voltage at the yellow post terminal.
4. Learned out to test a solenoid.
5. Learned that sanding all connections to remove corrosion probably helped this situation.
6. Learned that this forum is a very helpful place.
Finally, with this Scag, I'm intent on figuring out how to install a temperature gauge and a voltage gauge. It has an Amp gauge, but, I don't see how that is helpful.....also, after sitting for more than a week, the fuel pump won't pull gas into the carburetor and I have to disconnect the lines and pour some gasoline into those lines. That seems fixable with a descent pump?
Anyway...thanks again for all of the help.
One more thing I learned:
In a car/truck, when the battery starts to fade, the starter will become sluggish and then stop altogether, usually followed by some loud distinct clicking. In this Skag, when this problem first started, the engine kicked over once (for no more than a second or two), then nothing...no clicking...no activation of the starter. Then, I purchased the new battery and, again, nothing. That made me think it was something else.
In a car/truck, when the battery starts to fade, the starter will become sluggish and then stop altogether, usually followed by some loud distinct clicking. In this Skag, when this problem first started, the engine kicked over once (for no more than a second or two), then nothing...no clicking...no activation of the starter. Then, I purchased the new battery and, again, nothing. That made me think it was something else.