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Spindles on 48" tiger cub

#1

S

scagman2

I have a 2003 scag tiger cub, 48" cut with 800+ hrs. Have recently noticed a chattering/clattering sound while deck is engaged. Cutting performance is great, have checked all deck components and all seems ok. What sounds are made by failing spindles?


#2

B

bertsmobile1

A chattering sound.
Also made by a defect in a belt, flat spot on an idler pulley, loose pulley or blade bolt, loose spindle mount loose deck mount, tight /failing clutch, out of balance blades
I would have thought spindle bearings would be done around the 500 hr mark.
Any way slip the belt off completely and spin the blades, listen for rumbling.
similar with the idler pulleys.
Inspect the blades


#3

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SeniorCitizen

After about 20 or so minutes of operation shut it down and check temperatures of the different bearing housings and idler bearings by feeling with your hand. One is often surprised how accurate a test that can be.


#4

B

bertsmobile1

Gees you could really get your fingers burnt relying on that test :laughing:

just could not help myself.


#5

S

scagman2

scagman2 said:
I have a 2003 scag tiger cub, 48" cut with 800+ hrs. Have recently noticed a chattering/clattering sound while deck is engaged. Cutting performance is great, have checked all deck components and all seems ok. What sounds are made by failing spindles?
Click to expand...

Will be giving regular servicing on my scag today. Will remove deck belt again and re- examine all deck components as well as clutch. Will let you know what reveals itself. Thanks for all the input.:thumbsup:


#6

S

SeniorCitizen

bertsmobile1 said:
Gees you could really get your fingers burnt relying on that test :laughing:

just could not help myself.
Click to expand...

removes all doubt


#7

S

scagman2

bertsmobile1 said:
A chattering sound.
Also made by a defect in a belt, flat spot on an idler pulley, loose pulley or blade bolt, loose spindle mount loose deck mount, tight /failing clutch, out of balance blades
I would have thought spindle bearings would be done around the 500 hr mark.
Any way slip the belt off completely and spin the blades, listen for rumbling.
similar with the idler pulleys.
Inspect the blades
Click to expand...

After regular servicing, removed belt and found slight play in spindle when pulling up and down on blade tip. Have new replacement spindles handy, but was unable to remove hub and pulley and key from spindle assembly. Is there a trick to this? Hub and pulley have been on spindles for 12 yrs. now and are locked on like," a politician's grin." Don't want to attempt prying them up, looks like it could damage pulley. Any advise?


#8

B

bertsmobile1

scagman2 said:
After regular servicing, removed belt and found slight play in spindle when pulling up and down on blade tip. Have new replacement spindles handy, but was unable to remove hub and pulley and key from spindle assembly. Is there a trick to this? Hub and pulley have been on spindles for 12 yrs. now and are locked on like," a politician's grin." Don't want to attempt prying them up, looks like it could damage pulley. Any advise?
Click to expand...

A strong penetrating fluid like Kroll ? and some heat.
If you have a bearing seperator that supports the whole pulley use that with a puller and rattle gun.
This is why a good shop charges more for a service as these should get pulled every couple of years & light greased.

Check the end play on your new spindles as most spindles use balls rather than tappered rollers and they must have some play or they can not rotate properly.


#9

S

scagman2

bertsmobile1 said:
A strong penetrating fluid like Kroll ? and some heat.
If you have a bearing seperator that supports the whole pulley use that with a puller and rattle gun.
This is why a good shop charges more for a service as these should get pulled every couple of years & light greased.

Check the end play on your new spindles as most spindles use balls rather than tapered rollers and they must have some play or they can not rotate properly.
Click to expand...

Thanks much...nice to get advice from the other side of our globe. Happy mowing to you.:thumbsup:


#10

M

Mad Mackie

Do you have an operators/parts manual for your machine? If not, get the machine model and PIN numbers, go to the Scag website, click on manuals, find your machine and download the manual.
As has been mentioned, remove both of the V belts from the deck and spin each rotating component to determine which may be problematic.
To remove a spindle assembly, the blade bolt must be removed first. The spindle pulleys have several parts, the hub, pulley, key and two bolts.
The pulley is set onto the spindle, the hub is then set on lined onto the key, the two bolts draw the pulley up onto the hub and squeeze the hub securing it tightly to the spindle shaft. The reverse will disassemble the pulley for removal. Unless there is corrosion, these pulley components are generally easily removed. With the two bolts removed, tapping on the pulley will loosen it from the hub and it will drop down. The hub, unless there is corrosion, will usually come up and off. If not, then a two or three jaw puller can be used, but protection of the spindle top to prevent damage to it from the puller screw will be needed.
Measure the distance from each pulley to the deck top before removing them so they can be placed back in the same position.
The Scag operators manual has a maintenance schedule that includes the spindles which are to be lubricated with the specified grease at 40 hour intervals. The idler pulleys are a condition change item and any roughness, noise, radial or axial movement is cause to replace them.
The idler/tensioner pulleys have non replaceable ball bearings. The spindles have two tapered roller bearings that are preloaded against each other for smooth turning of the spindle at high RPM.


#11

S

scagman2

Mad Mackie said:
Do you have an operators/parts manual for your machine? If not, get the machine model and PIN numbers, go to the Scag website, click on manuals, find your machine and download the manual.
As has been mentioned, remove both of the V belts from the deck and spin each rotating component to determine which may be problematic.
To remove a spindle assembly, the blade bolt must be removed first. The spindle pulleys have several parts, the hub, pulley, key and two bolts.
The pulley is set onto the spindle, the hub is then set on lined onto the key, the two bolts draw the pulley up onto the hub and squeeze the hub securing it tightly to the spindle shaft. The reverse will disassemble the pulley for removal. Unless there is corrosion, these pulley components are generally easily removed. With the two bolts removed, tapping on the pulley will loosen it from the hub and it will drop down. The hub, unless there is corrosion, will usually come up and off. If not, then a two or three jaw puller can be used, but protection of the spindle top to prevent damage to it from the puller screw will be needed.
Measure the distance from each pulley to the deck top before removing them so they can be placed back in the same position.
The Scag operators manual has a maintenance schedule that includes the spindles which are to be lubricated with the specified grease at 40 hour intervals. The idler pulleys are a condition change item and any roughness, noise, radial or axial movement is cause to replace them.
The idler/tensioner pulleys have non replaceable ball bearings. The spindles have two tapered roller bearings that are preloaded against each other for smooth turning of the spindle at high RPM.
Click to expand...

Thanks M.M. Found out also that the 2 hub bolts can be removed and inserted into 2 extra holes on hub to force hub upward. WILL use penetrating oil the night before spindle replacement later this week. In your previous post you mentioned the hub mounts flush with top of spindle shaft...were you referring to another lawn tractor? My 2003 Tiger cub has roughly 1.5" of spindle shaft above top of hub. If you were referring to your T. cub, wonder why the difference? Thanks much for your input...Happy mowing. :laughing::smile::thumbsup:


#12

M

Mad Mackie

The position of the pulley hub is machine/model specific. I have used Kroil brand of penetrant for many years and I feel that Kroil is the best performing, but it takes time and frequent reapplications.
Backing off the two bolts some and tapping on them may loosen the pulley from the hub. Try some heat with a propane torch, but bear in mind that all penetrants are flammable.


#13

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SeniorCitizen

You folks are describing Browning QD bushings. If they were installed with the correct torque and not allowed to rust the pusher cap screws is all that's needed to remove.


#14

S

scagman2

SeniorCitizen said:
You folks are describing Browning QD bushings. If they were installed with the correct torque and not allowed to rust the pusher cap screws is all that's needed to remove.
Click to expand...

Am referring to the hub and pulley on my scag spindles...have them soaking in penetrating oil and will attempt tomorrow. Thanks for all input.:cool:


#15

S

SeniorCitizen

Is this not what you have with the exception you have a pulley rather than a sproket. Pay strict attention to torque specs provided in the link.

http://www.martinsprocket.com/docs/default-source/catalog-bushings/qd-bushings-catalog.pdf?sfvrsn=14


#16

S

scagman2

SeniorCitizen said:
Is this not what you have with the exception you have a pulley rather than a sproket. Pay strict attention to torque specs provided in the link.

http://www.martinsprocket.com/docs/default-source/catalog-bushings/qd-bushings-catalog.pdf?sfvrsn=14
Click to expand...

Yes it is...thanks. The spindle removal and new install went well after soaking in penetrating oil overnight. Am concerned about grease coming out of top spindle seal after running for 30 minutes. Will have to contact the seller about this. Thanks much...grateful for any advise.


#17

S

SeniorCitizen

scagman2 said:
Yes it is...thanks. The spindle removal and new install went well after soaking in penetrating oil overnight. Am concerned about grease coming out of top spindle seal after running for 30 minutes. Will have to contact the seller about this. Thanks much...grateful for any advise.
Click to expand...
Glad you got it. That's one of the better ways to fasten this to that and is widely used in industry.

If the assembly was pumped completely full of grease, when the temperature raised ever so slightly the grease expanded and takes the path of least resistance and that seal seemed to be it this time on that one.


#18

S

scagman2

SeniorCitizen said:
Glad you got it. That's one of the better ways to fasten this to that and is widely used in industry.

If the assembly was pumped completely full of grease, when the temperature raised ever so slightly the grease expanded and takes the path of least resistance and that seal seemed to be it this time on that one.
Click to expand...

So, is it safe to say this is normal and not defective?


#19

S

SeniorCitizen

scagman2 said:
So, is it safe to say this is normal and not defective?
Click to expand...
I would say normal if it was completely full of grease or had so little air the pressure out weighed the resistance of the seal. There really isn't a way to tell for certain with the test equipment the average mower owner has. I just use the best by guess and by golly too.

In time it should stop ozzing out. May take awhile but I can't see where it it hurting that much except the mess..


#20

S

scagman2

SeniorCitizen said:
I would say normal if it was completely full of grease or had so little air the pressure out weighed the resistance of the seal. There really isn't a way to tell for certain with the test equipment the average mower owner has. I just use the best by guess and by golly too.

In time it should stop ozzing out. May take awhile but I can't see where it it hurting that much except the mess..
Click to expand...

Wasn't OEM spindles. Scag wants $275.00 each. Got aftermarket. Yes, took 50 pumps from grease gun...was full...pumped until grease came out overflow opposite side of grease fitting. Thanks much for response. Will keep an eye on it before and after each mowing. Regards S.C.:thumbsup::smile::wink:


#21

S

scagman2

SeniorCitizen said:
I would say normal if it was completely full of grease or had so little air the pressure out weighed the resistance of the seal. There really isn't a way to tell for certain with the test equipment the average mower owner has. I just use the best by guess and by golly too.

In time it should stop ozzing out. May take awhile but I can't see where it it hurting that much except the mess..
Click to expand...

Well Senior citizen, mowed more and seepage has lessened. Still need to keep an eye on it though. Would you believe that after the spindles replaced...the chattering noise continues? Examined deck closer...found anti scalping wheels had slop in bore sleeve and tension idler spring ends attached to end hooks were all rattling. Removed, cleaned, lubed, and reinstalled...now ok. Inspected old spindles, found bad seals at bottom and with 800+ hrs, they were:thumbsup::smile::laughing: due for replacement even though they weren't the noisy culprits. Guess a 12 yr. old scag is like an old truck... it squeaks, rattles and rolls...but works just fine.


#22

M

Mad Mackie

The way Scag tensioner springs are made in three pieces lets them get noisy and vibrate more particularly the drive belt tensioner.


#23

S

SeniorCitizen

Thanks for the up-date and glad you found the problem. Those bearings will probably last forever with your diligent maintenance. Seals sometimes catch he!! on the bottom end. Lost count of how many times I repaired brother I Ls where baler twine or cow hair had cut the lower seal out from mowing the corral.


#24

S

scagman2

SeniorCitizen said:
Thanks for the up-date and glad you found the problem. Those bearings will probably last forever with your diligent maintenance. Seals sometimes catch he!! on the bottom end. Lost count of how many times I repaired brother I Ls where baler twine or cow hair had cut the lower seal out from mowing the corral.
Click to expand...

Thanks again to MAD MAKIE and Senior Citizen for sharing your experience and knowledge. Let's keep in touch from time to time.:thumbsup::smile::wink::cool:


#25

B

bertsmobile1

SeniorCitizen said:
Thanks for the up-date and glad you found the problem. Those bearings will probably last forever with your diligent maintenance. Seals sometimes catch he!! on the bottom end. Lost count of how many times I repaired brother I Ls where baler twine or cow hair had cut the lower seal out from mowing the corral.
Click to expand...

Yeah,
Had a Dane come in. owner could not get the lower spindle bearings to go in.
Reason, spindle was 1/2 " too short having acuallt worn the entire bottom off the housing so the bearing had nothing to support it.


#26

S

scagman2

bertsmobile1 said:
Yeah,
Had a Dane come in. owner could not get the lower spindle bearings to go in.
Reason, spindle was 1/2 " too short having acuallt worn the entire bottom off the housing so the bearing had nothing to support it.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you have repaired/ replaced many spindles. My replacement spindles ooze grease from the top seal, so I will have to keep an eye on them. Sometimes it's difficult to pinpoint where noises come from the deck area... glad I found the culprits. Time will tell, and may also develop more unwanted sounds in the future. I guess a 2003 scag is like a 20 yr. old GMC truck...shakes, rattles, and rolls...but keeps going. Thanks for your insight.:thumbsup::smile::wink::rolleyes:


#27

S

scagman2

SeniorCitizen said:
Thanks for the up-date and glad you found the problem. Those bearings will probably last forever with your diligent maintenance. Seals sometimes catch he!! on the bottom end. Lost count of how many times I repaired brother I Ls where baler twine or cow hair had cut the lower seal out from mowing the corral.
Click to expand...

These aftermarket spindles...what a pain. Should have gone OEM...but the cost!!! 2 spindles still ooze grease from top seal and 1 from bottom seal. Can run about 10 hrs. and then wipe grease off with a rag...Add about 5 pumps grease with hand held grease gun. Don't know whether to continue this or buy another set of spindles. OEM runs $750.00 FOR 3...aftermarket (all made in china of course $150.00) Anyone have any suggestions or insight...much appreciated.


#28

B

Bod

scagman2 said:
After regular servicing, removed belt and found slight play in spindle when pulling up and down on blade tip. Have new replacement spindles handy, but was unable to remove hub and pulley and key from spindle assembly. Is there a trick to this? Hub and pulley have been on spindles for 12 yrs. now and are locked on like," a politician's grin." Don't want to attempt prying them up, looks like it could damage pulley. Any advise?
Click to expand...
After 12 years, just replace the entire jack shaft case assemblies. Also same with all idlers and pullies. Your deck dont owe you any money right now and it isnt that much more costly to replace all. Get any dealer to check Oregon after market for you.


#29

M

Mad Mackie

scagman2 said:
These aftermarket spindles...what a pain. Should have gone OEM...but the cost!!! 2 spindles still ooze grease from top seal and 1 from bottom seal. Can run about 10 hrs. and then wipe grease off with a rag...Add about 5 pumps grease with hand held grease gun. Don't know whether to continue this or buy another set of spindles. OEM runs $750.00 FOR 3...aftermarket (all made in china of course $150.00) Anyone have any suggestions or insight...much appreciated.
Click to expand...

Why are you still adding grease to the spindles?
Scag calls for 40 hour spindle lube, most of us go till 50 hours when some of the scheduled maintenance is called for.
Do the spindles have a relief valve at 180 degrees from the grease fitting?
Was there an aftermarket name on the spindle packages?


#30

S

scagman2

Mad Mackie said:
Why are you still adding grease to the spindles?
Scag calls for 40 hour spindle lube, most of us go till 50 hours when some of the scheduled maintenance is called for.
Do the spindles have a relief valve at 180 degrees from the grease fitting?
Was there an aftermarket name on the spindle packages?
Click to expand...

Am only adding about 5 pumps grease per spindle every 10 hrs. of mowing to replace the amount that leaks out of seals. Yes there is a relief valve opposite of grease fitting. The grease came out of relief valve the first time I greased spindles. Got the 3 spindles from RUSSO EQUIPMENT, made by CYCLONE. They sell online. Not sure whether to keep using and re-greasing... or try to find another set that is affordable. T he OEM's are not. Don't mind keeping them and giving the extra servicing if they hold up.


#31

M

Mad Mackie

STOP over greasing these spindles!!!!!
When greasing them, you stop when the grease first shows at the relief valve.
Mow with this machine and let the spindles settle.
A grease gun puts out more grease than the relief valve can vent out. If you continue to pump in grease, you will blow out the seals!!!!
STOP over greasing these spindles!!!!!


#32

S

scagman2

Mad Mackie said:
STOP over greasing these spindles!!!!!
When greasing them, you stop when the grease first shows at the relief valve.
Mow with this machine and let the spindles settle.
A grease gun puts out more grease than the relief valve can vent out. If you continue to pump in grease, you will blow out the seals!!!!
STOP over greasing these spindles!!!!!
Click to expand...

Ok M.M. Thanks for advise...will stop and see what happens.:thumbsup:


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