Small Engine novice

[Rivets]

For now just hook the magnetos up the way they should be. Don’t worry about, are they fried or not, as they will have no bearing on the cranking system. After we get the engine to turn over we can check to see if they are good or not. I am attaching the procedure I use to test the cranking systems. There are other procedures used by other members which may be easier to use. Report back after everything is hooked up and you test the cranking system.

Electrical problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. How well you understand basic electricity.
2. What tools you have and know how to use.
3. How well you follow directions.
4. You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.

Remember we cannot see what you are doing. You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. Now let's solve this problem.
First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good. Check and make sure the chassis ground is clean and tight.
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.
Third, check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch).
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again).
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.
After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.

Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[VegetiveSteam]

Before I hook everything back up again, I need to know what to do with those two Magnetos. I think you already told me before there is no good way to test them.

Right now I wouldn't be concerned with the ignition modules (magnetos as you call them). Until you can get the engine to turn over there is no good way to test them. Once you get the engine to turn over, the way you would test them is to disconnect the white kill lead at each module, connect a proper spark tester to the plug lead and then crank the engine and look for spark. There is no guarantee they are even damaged but yes they could be. If they do end up needed replaced the replacement part number is 24 584 45-S and they are the same for both sides.

Were you ever able to determine if you have power getting to the small excite wire at the starter solenoid when you try to start the unit? The spade terminal circled in the attached pic. Don't just check for voltage at the wire itself. Leave the wire attached to the spade terminal. You will need someone sitting in the seat with all of the safeties in their normal start position, blades disengaged, brake on maybe, ect.

Start simple and don't make it harder than is has to be.

 

[rklemm60]

Rivets, That makes sense that I can't test for spark until I can get the engine to crank. I have re-read all the posts and I have now completed the assignment of pulling the blow cover and fowarding pictures of the two Magnetos. Before I hook everything back up again, I need to know what to do with those two Magnetos. I think you already told me before there is no good way to test them. Does that mean they next step is to replace them or is there another picture or more information needed? BTW - the server does not like the pictures I am sending bc they are too big. The two Magnetos I sent you are screen shots.

Rivets, Bert, Star, Tiger, I finally found a way to take picture that do not suck up all of your server's bandwidth. Please see the shot of both Magnetos

For now just hook the magnetos up the way they should be. Don’t worry about, are they fried or not, as they will have no bearing on the cranking system. After we get the engine to turn over we can check to see if they are good or not. I am attaching the procedure I use to test the cranking systems. There are other procedures used by other members which may be easier to use. Report back after everything is hooked up and you test the cranking system.

Electrical problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. How well you understand basic electricity.
2. What tools you have and know how to use.
3. How well you follow directions.
4. You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.

Remember we cannot see what you are doing. You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. Now let's solve this problem.
First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good. Check and make sure the chassis ground is clean and tight.
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.
Third, check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch).
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again).
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.
After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.

Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.

Ok Rivets, I finally got my camera so it would not suck up all the server bandwidth. Please see birds eye view of both Magnetos. OK Rivets, I am printing out your instructions now so we can start troubleshooting this.

 

[rklemm60]

For now just hook the magnetos up the way they should be. Don’t worry about, are they fried or not, as they will have no bearing on the cranking system. After we get the engine to turn over we can check to see if they are good or not. I am attaching the procedure I use to test the cranking systems. There are other procedures used by other members which may be easier to use. Report back after everything is hooked up and you test the cranking system.

Electrical problems can be very easy or very difficult, depending on four things.
1. How well you understand basic electricity.
2. What tools you have and know how to use.
3. How well you follow directions.
4. You don't overlook or assume anything and verify everything.

Remember we cannot see what you are doing. You are our eyes, ears and fingers in solving this problem. You must be as accurate as you can when you report back. The two basic tools we will ask you to use are a test light and a multi-meter. If you have an assistant when going through these tests it would be very helpful. These steps work the best when done in order, so please don't jump around. Now let's solve this problem.
First, check the fuse(s), check battery connections for corrosion (clean if necessary) and voltage - above 12.5 volts should be good. Check and make sure the chassis ground is clean and tight.
Second, check for power from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. One of the wires is connected directly to the battery and has power all the time so one of the large terminals should light a test light or show 12 volts on a meter at all times.
Third, check for power at the small terminal of the solenoid while depressing the clutch/brake pedal and holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch). If your solenoid is a four wire solenoid, check both small wire terminals as one is ground and the other is power from the ignition switch. If your solenoid is a three wire solenoid, make sure the solenoid body is not corroded where it bolts to the chassis of the mower as this is your ground path back to the battery. If in doubt, remove the solenoid and clean the mounting area down to bare metal. If there is no power to the small terminal then your problem is most likely a safety switch, ignition switch or in the wiring.
Fourth, check for power on the other large terminal of the solenoid while holding the key in the start position (you may need an assistant to sit in the seat to override the safety switch).
Fifth, check for power at the starter while holding the key in the start position (assistant again).
Sixth, check your ground circuit back to the battery.
After you have gone through each of the above steps, let us know what happened when you did each step. At that point we will have great info to tell you how to proceed. Remember you are our eyes, ears, and fingers, so please be as accurate as possible.

Be as specific as possible with voltage readings as this will help diagnose your problem quicker. If you do not know how to perform the above checks, just ask and I will try to guide you through it. Youtube also has some videos and as you know a picture is worth a thousand words.

Rivets, That makes sense that I can't test for spark until I can get the engine to crank. I have re-read all the posts and I have now completed the assignment of pulling the blow cover and fowarding pictures of the two Magnetos. Before I hook everything back up again, I need to know what to do with those two Magnetos. I think you already told me before there is no good way to test them. Does that mean they next step is to replace them or is there another picture or more information needed? BTW - the server does not like the pictures I am sending bc they are too big. The two Magnetos I sent you are screen shots.

Rivets, Bert, Star, Tiger, I finally found a way to take picture that do not suck up all of your server's bandwidth. Please see the shot of both Magnetos

 

[TobyU]

Read some of this thread and got here from the previous thread that comments got turned off..argh!

The biggest problem here was the start of the diagnosis or the attempt to get it to crank.
When a riding lawn mower will not crank DO NOT assume or even start thinking about the ignition switch being the culprit.
It is rarely the problem.

Certainly, do not start taking wires off of the switch and testing things by hooking wires together. That's a very bad idea.

90 to probably 95% of the time for a no crank condition it will be a safety switch, loose connection, bad solenoid, or a starter.

All of these are far more common than a bad ignition switch.

So start with the basics.
Check the battery or give it a known good battery or jumper cables or booster pack or whatever and make sure the connections are tight on the battery and at the solenoid and at the starter and on the ground for the negative cable hooks to.

Then, sit on the machine and hold the starter switch to the starting position while you manipulate the blade engagement lever back and forth or the switch if it has a PTO and push the parking brake pedal down several times and push it a little harder than normal at the end of its travel..

Many times you will find it will try to crank or tickle over a little bit when you do this because you found a flaky safety switch or one not getting pushed firmly enough.

After this I like to shoot 12 volts from jumper cables or whatever straight to the starter just to watch it spin over to confirm that the high amp wiring, battery, and starter are all good.

Then, use a test light to see if you're solenoid is sending power across but if you've already jumped it over and watched it spin with the starter and it's a solenoid was working it would be cranking anyways if it was being told to engage.

Then you check your switch wire on your solenoid when you turn the key to on.
This is the point you may need to start looking into diagrams to see exactly which terminal does what but normally it's not necessary and hardly ever is a necessary to even pull the multi wire connector off of the switch..

 

[rklemm60]

1. After putting the tractor blower cover back together, I found one of two battery related fuses is broken based on physical examination (See pictures). No Corrosion on battery connections (see pictures). Battery is putting out 12.5 Volts. Chassis ground is clean. Used chassis ground for all testing.
2. 12.5 volts to battery connector side of the selenoid (successful). Every subsequent test failed.
3. Solenoid body is not corroded. No power to small terminals on the selenoid. the solenoid on the left was the purple wire which, as you know, and as YouTube said services all the safety switches. I was expecting power because I had the seat rigged with weight to satisfy the safety switch. I put the brake on as normal to satisfy safety switch and turned on the switch but got no light for any further testing. Battery is still putting out 12.5 volts.

4. No power to the other large terminal on the selenoid which, as you know, was connected to the starter.
5. No power to the starter using the light tester.
6. Checked and got 12.5 volts from the chassis ground to the positive terminal on the battery.
Note: A three pronged connector coming out of the wiring harness with at least one purple wire is not connected to anything. (See picture). There is another unconnected purple wire (see picture)

I look forward to you guys's thoughts.

 

[TobyU]

Read some of this thread and got here from the previous thread that Thomas returned off on, aargh!

The biggest problem here was the start of the diagnosis or the attempt to get it to crank.
When a riding lawn mower will not crank DO NOT assume or even start thinking about the ignition switch being the culprit.
It is rarely the problem.

Certainly, do not start taking wires off of the switch and testing things by hooking wires together. That's a very bad idea.

90 to probably 95% of the time for a no crank condition it will be a safety switch, loose connection, bad solenoid, or a starter.

All of these are far more common than a bad ignition switch.

So start with the basics.
Check the battery or give it a known good battery or jumper cables or booster pack or whatever and make sure the connections are tight on the battery and at the solenoid and at the starter and on the ground for the negative cable hooks to.

Then, sit on the machine and hold the starter switch to the starting position while you manipulate the blade engagement lever back and forth or the switch if it has a PTO and push the parking brake pedal down several times and push it a little harder than normal at the end of its travel..

Many times you will find it will try to crank or tickle over a little bit when you do this because you found a flaky safety switch or one not getting pushed firmly enough.

After this I like to shoot 12 volts from jumper cables or whatever straight to the starter just to watch it spin over to confirm that the high amp wiring, battery, and starter are all good.

Then, use a test light to see if you're solenoid is sending power across but if you've already jumped it over and watched it spin with the starter and it's a solenoid was working it would be cranking anyways if it was being told to engage.

Then you check your switch wire

1. After putting the tractor blower cover back together, I found one of two battery related fuses is broken based on physical examination (See pictures). No Corrosion on battery connections (see pictures). Battery is putting out 12.5 Volts. Chassis ground is clean. Used chassis ground for all testing.
2. 12.5 volts to battery connector side of the selenoid (successful). Every subsequent test failed.
3. Solenoid body is not corroded. No power to small terminals on the selenoid. the solenoid on the left was the purple wire which, as you know, and as YouTube said services all the safety switches. I was expecting power because I had the seat rigged with weight to satisfy the safety switch. I put the brake on as normal to satisfy safety switch and turned on the switch but got no light for any further testing. Battery is still putting out 12.5 volts.

4. No power to the other large terminal on the selenoid which, as you know, was connected to the starter.
5. No power to the starter using the light tester.
6. Checked and got 12.5 volts from the chassis ground to the positive terminal on the battery.
Note: A three pronged connector coming out of the wiring harness with at least one purple wire is not connected to anything. (See picture). There is another unconnected purple wire (see picture)

I look forward to you guys's thoughts.

What is this glass enclosed fuse you are talking about?
The only thing I see in the picture that looks like glass looks like a light bulb!

Okay does it crank when you sort out the two cables on top of the solenoid?? I would hope it does.
If it does then check the solenoid itself.

You have a four wire solenoid that is not grounded to the chassis. The most common is the three wire which is grounded.
One of the wires on the solenoid is grounded or at least gets grounded when you turn the key to start but another common method of wiring is that the other wire coming from the switch only has 12 volts when you when you turn the key to start.

That's all irrelevant at this point and so is the switch and the wiring. I would be trying to check the solenoid at this point and to do that I would take both of those smaller push on wires off.
Ground one to the chassis and shoot 12 volts to the other one from a jumper wire from your battery positive post.
You should hear the solenoid snap when you do that and it should crank the engine.

At this point you would know if the solenoid is good or bad and if it's good and it works and cranks the engine now you have to determine which one of those wires is not getting what it needs.
I stated previously, when the switch is in the start position one wire has to be ground and one wire has to be 12 volts.
That's the only way the solenoid can complete the circuit on a four terminal solenoid.
The reason there can be stuff involved with the safety switches is the safety switches are open which prevents the ground wire from being grounded on the solenoid. Soon as all the safety switches become closed and satisfied it provides ground on that terminal.

I will go back to my original statement on this that 90% of the time when a riding lawn mower won't crank it is a safety switch, solenoid, or loose connection but a high degree of the time it's a safety switch.

It seems like you're checking things, looking at things, considering things that are kind of extraneous and distracting from what we really should be checking out to focus on the most common and to rule things out 100% until we move on to the next or until we find the problem.

 

[StarTech]

In one image I see where the OP's pet mouse has been at work.

The fuse is a 15amp ATC/ATO fuse.


Personally from I have read and it gives me a headache to try to read everything I recommend the OP just take the mower to someone that know what they are doing.

 

[bertsmobile1]

Yes both of the coils are fried so get some new ones
After market from a reliable source like Rotary , Stens. Prime Line should be good & about 1/2 to 2/3 the price of Kohler ones
Try to avoid Amazon or ebay as a lot of the stuff there is defective
And yes probably better to do oe thing at a time.
Please buy that manual at $ 50 it is a steal
I will drop out now as you are on the right path and having 3 people trying to get you to do the same thing 3 different ways is just confusing .
Follow Rivets instruction to the letter and post your results at every step .
You are so close now it is not funny

 

[TobyU]

And once you get it fixed and running learn from this experience and don't troubleshoot it the same way next time.
I run into a number of people with cars or mowers who throw Parts at machines and after the 3rd or 4th attempt they get the problem fixed and get it running. The problem with this is that reinforces their behavior of trying this or trying that because at the end they really don't feel it was that bad because they still usually fixed it cheaper than taking it somewhere.
I can't subscribe to this because they still wasted money on those other one or two parts they replaced that didn't fix the problem.

There is a very systematic and simple approach to check these things like I detailed out before and if people will follow something similar to this they will usually find the culprit way before they start spending money on new parts.