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Rust pulleys/bolts on brand new machine?

Sep 24, 2014#1

David Giles

Hey folks, I'm the proud new owner of a brand new Tiger Cat 61" that I just picked up from the dealer's showroom yesterday. It looks pretty much perfect, as you would expect of a brand new machine, EXCEPT for some unexpected rust on the bolts on top of the spindle pulleys. I can't find any other rust or other problems at all. Is rust in that spot normal on these machines, and should I be concerned?

Here's what I'm talking about:

David

Sep 24, 2014#2

M

Mad Mackie

Hi David,
I just looked at the spindle pulleys on my 2008 Tiger Cub and they don't have any rust on them, oxidation yes. Are you in a high humidity area? Does your dealer leave machines outside? Does your dealer water wash their in stock machines? The machine bolts in the pulleys are cad plated class 8 bolts which don't corrode quickly, the other rusty area is exposed metal. Do all three spindle pulleys have the rust on the same areas? Your pic is of the center spindle pulley.
Was this a demo machine?
I suggest that you raise up the front of the machine, which you need to do to perform a blade change, remove the blade bolt nuts, I do this with an air impact wrench and 15/16" socket, pull the blades and bolts out and inspect them for corrosion. The blade bolts are 9 1/2" long and the machine needs to be raised up to allow the bolts to clear the bottom of the spindles. To correctly install the blades and bolts, the nut torque is 75 FTLBs. I use a long breaker bar with socket to hold the bolt head under the deck, and torque the nuts from the top with a torque wrench. With that much corrosion/rust on the pulley tops, I would be concerned about the condition of the bolts and nuts as when they get corrosion in the nut/bolt threads, they can be a bear to remove. I had to drill small holes radially in one nut and then split it with a hammer and chisel to remove it and I do 3-4 blade changes in season.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Sep 24, 2014#3

David Giles

Thanks for your reply Mackie! I believe the other bolt heads do have some rust as well, but it has gotten dark out now, so I'll have to check in the morning.

The machine was inside the showroom when I saw it, although it COULD have been outside on display at times I suppose. But I'm pretty sure they don't leave them outside overnight. And I'm in central Alabama which is certainly very humid at times, but nowhere near the ocean so no salt to worry about. I can easily order some new bolts from McMaster and replace them, and it sounds like I probably should (don't want to give rust a head start anywhere!) Should I worry about the pulleys themselves?

David

Sep 24, 2014#4

M

Mad Mackie

Hi again David,
I would definitely drop and inspect the blade bolts and the spindle bores for rust/corrosion. Keeping a spare set of bolts and nuts may be a good thing to do. I have installed thin steel aircraft washers under the nuts on my machine. The reason for the aircraft washers is that their OD is smaller than standard 5/8" flat washers and I have an additional collection system drive pulley on the R/H spindle which has a recess and won't allow a standard flat washer to fit. The flat washers have made blade bolt nut removal easier. As the mower deck blades turn, these nuts get tighter.
If there is rust/corrosion in the spindle bores, it can be removed with either a small bottle type metal brush or similar method. Should you choose to use anti-seize compound on the bolts and nut threads, then I would reduce the torque to about 50-55 FTLBs as this would be a wet torque. I do know several operators that do this as they mow wet and or high acid areas that contribute to quick corrosion.
I was stationed a Ft. Rucker a few times in my 16 year of US Army service, Dothan, Daleville. Been to Montgomery and Birmingham visiting Army National Guard Aviation units. Did 8 years in the US Navy prior to Army.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Sep 24, 2014#5

S

SeniorCitizen

That appears to be a QD bushing assembly and the rust on the cap screws certainly appears unsightly for a new machine but what I'd be more concerned about is the internal surfaces. If they rust, those can be a bear to disassemble, especially if Bubba put it together with an impact. There are strict torque guidelines for assembly of QD bushings and if Bubba didn't follow those and some rust is allowed that isn't good. If done right they are the best. If you decide to service those we can help if you aren't acquainted with QDs. OR, you may know more than I.

Enjoy your new machine.

Sep 24, 2014#6

David Giles

Thanks for the extra info Mackie. No this was definitely not a demo machine. It only had a tenth of hour on the meter, and not a scratch on it. And ZERO evidence of dirt or grass (it would have been very difficult to get it THAT clean if it had ever been used). Which is why the rust seems so strange... Anyway, in the next day or two we'll pull the blade bolts and check them out. And I'll go ahead and get some of those washers and install them while I'm at it.

Wow, Navy AND Army? Thanks for your service!

Sep 24, 2014#7

David Giles

SeniorCitizen said:
OR, you may know more than I.

Most definitely not. I don't even know what a QD bushing assembly is! :confused2: What does QD stand for?

Yeah I definitely want to check everything out and cut out any "cancer" I find before it spreads. Not sure how these parts got rusty to begin with, when everything else is so cherry. But regardless I would definitely like to service the QD bushings if you think I should (and if it isn't TOO difficult and doesn't require expensive specialized tools). So please do let me know what I need to do.

SeniorCitizen said:
Enjoy your new machine.

Thanks SC!

David

Sep 25, 2014#8

7394

David- Did you question the dealer about this rust ?

Sep 25, 2014#9

tigercat

No rust on my parts as well. If the nuts are hard to remove, use an impact wrench on them. They will unscrew right off. Torque them by hand when you put them back on.

Lightly wire brush the bolts and apply breakfree clp to the exterior parts. The rust will stop.

Sep 25, 2014#10

David Giles

7394 said:
David- Did you question the dealer about this rust ?

No unfortunately I didn't notice it at the dealership. :ashamed:

David

Sep 25, 2014#11

David Giles

tigercat said:
No rust on my parts as well. If the nuts are hard to remove, use an impact wrench on them. They will unscrew right off. Torque them by hand when you put them back on.

Lightly wire brush the bolts and apply breakfree clp to the exterior parts. The rust will stop.

Thanks tigercat! We're definitely going to remove the nuts and bolts today. And I'll get some breakfree clp to spray on the pulleys, but I'll probably just go ahead and order exact-replacement nuts and bolts from McMaster. But would it make sense to go ahead and get the highest quality Stainless bolts/nuts for replacements? I certainly don't mind spending a few extra bucks for peace of mind.

David

Sep 25, 2014#12

M

Mad Mackie

The blade bolts are hardened steel class 5/8 bolts, stainless is a softer material and for sure would be expensive. The small 1/4" bolts in the pulleys are also class 5/8 bolts and I recommend replacing them. Periodic maintenance by removing the blade bolts usually does the job. Don't get any rust sprays on the pulley drive surfaces or the V belts!! I don't recommend wire brushing (lightly by hand is OK)them as this will remove some of the cad plating which in itself protects from corrosion. When I store my machine for winter, I lube, change engine oil, filter and remove and reinstall the blade bolts. Unless the blades are bad, I leave them on for spring cleanup and then change the blades.
With Scag machines, I recommend that the brake lever be in the off position during long periods of storage. Doing this reduces the frequency of brake readjustments, a service that requires the removal of the wheels to perform. I have replaced the brake actuator grease fittings with a 45 degree fitting facing up, this allows me to lube these spots from above the machine and without having to remove the wheels.
I also did the same to the grease fittings on the deck stabilizer links and now they also can be lubed from above.
Also bear in mind that the spindles use a particular type grease that is different from the grease for the rest of the machine. you can use the spindle lube on the entire machine, but not the other way. I have a 90 degree grease gun adapter that makes lubing the spindles easier.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Sep 25, 2014#13

S

SeniorCitizen

QD is for Quick Disconnect.

COPIED from Baldor: To install Baldor QD Sheaves, the cap screws are used as pull-wrench only; no additional leverage is necessary. To remove QD Sheaves, the cap screws are taken out and used as jack screws ( pushers in the other 2 holes - SeniorCitizen ). A few quick turns on each screw, and the tight grip of the bushing on the shaft is easily broken.

*************************************************************************
Before doing anything toward dis-assembly measure or mark the amount of shaft protruding above the bushing. You'll need that to re-assemble.

The OD of the bushing is tapered and matches the taper of the sheave ID. I couldn't find torque specifications for re-assembly but it isn't much. For that size possibly 10-15 ft. lbs but that's a guess. The torque comes with the installation instructions when they are purchased new. I'll keep looking for that. You should find the size by a letter designation on the bushing and sheave , like JA as an example.

If the tapered surfaces are rusty clean with fine emery cloth or sandpaper. Wash with a liberal amount of WD-40 and wipe clean until you can feel nothing (grit) with your hands. Install dry, no never sieze, no oil , no nothing , just that residue from the WD-40 after wiping dry.

NOTE: during dis-assembly and after the sheave drops from the tapered bushing, if the bushing doesn't easily slide off the shaft, lightly drive a screwdriver in the bushing split slot to expand it just a little.

Sep 25, 2014#14

David Giles

Mad Mackie said:
The blade bolts are hardened steel class 5/8 bolts, stainless is a softer material and for sure would be expensive. The small 1/4" bolts in the pulleys are also class 5/8 bolts and I recommend replacing them. Periodic maintenance by removing the blade bolts usually does the job. Don't get any rust sprays on the pulley drive surfaces or the V belts!! I don't recommend wire brushing (lightly by hand is OK)them as this will remove some of the cad plating which in itself protects from corrosion. When I store my machine for winter, I lube, change engine oil, filter and remove and reinstall the blade bolts. Unless the blades are bad, I leave them on for spring cleanup and then change the blades.
With Scag machines, I recommend that the brake lever be in the off position during long periods of storage. Doing this reduces the frequency of brake readjustments, a service that requires the removal of the wheels to perform. I have replaced the brake actuator grease fittings with a 45 degree fitting facing up, this allows me to lube these spots from above the machine and without having to remove the wheels.
I also did the same to the grease fittings on the deck stabilizer links and now they also can be lubed from above.
Also bear in mind that the spindles use a particular type grease that is different from the grease for the rest of the machine. you can use the spindle lube on the entire machine, but not the other way. I have a 90 degree grease gun adapter that makes lubing the spindles easier.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Okay thanks for the info MM! I'll order exact replacements on the bolts and nuts.

We don't do any kind of mechanical work here, but I'm comfortable tackling it, and one of my employees used to work for an equipment dealer that sold high end mowers and he did basic maintenance on them for awhile. But we don't have a grease gun here (yet), so can anyone point me to a reasonably cheap gun that will be okay for the very occasional use it'll get? And do you have a favorite grease that works on the entire machine?

Sep 25, 2014#15

David Giles

SeniorCitizen said:
QD is for Quick Disconnect.

COPIED from Baldor: To install Baldor QD Sheaves, the cap screws are used as pull-wrench only; no additional leverage is necessary. To remove QD Sheaves, the cap screws are taken out and used as jack screws ( pushers in the other 2 holes - SeniorCitizen ). A few quick turns on each screw, and the tight grip of the bushing on the shaft is easily broken.

*************************************************************************
Before doing anything toward dis-assembly measure or mark the amount of shaft protruding above the bushing. You'll need that to re-assemble.

The OD of the bushing is tapered and matches the taper of the sheave ID. I couldn't find torque specifications for re-assembly but it isn't much. For that size possibly 10-15 ft. lbs but that's a guess. The torque comes with the installation instructions when they are purchased new. I'll keep looking for that. You should find the size by a letter designation on the bushing and sheave , like JA as an example.

If the tapered surfaces are rusty clean with fine emery cloth or sandpaper. Wash with a liberal amount of WD-40 and wipe clean until you can feel nothing (grit) with your hands. Install dry, no never sieze, no oil , no nothing , just that residue from the WD-40 after wiping dry.

NOTE: during dis-assembly and after the sheave drops from the tapered bushing, if the bushing doesn't easily slide off the shaft, lightly drive a screwdriver in the bushing split slot to expand it just a little.

Thanks SC! But not being a mechanic, I'm not sure if I understand what they mean by "the cap screws are used as pull-wrench only" and "the cap screws are taken out and used as jack screws". Can you explain that a bit? Or maybe just point me to something online that explains the process in non-mechanic terms (or maybe a video)?

EDIT: Okay after thinking about it, I THINK I figured out what they mean by "the cap screws are used as pull-wrench only" and "the cap screws are taken out and used as jack screws".

Sep 25, 2014#16

M

Mad Mackie

Look in the owners manual for the spec on spindle grease. This grease can be used on the entire machine eliminating the need for two different types of grease. I use the pistol grip type grease gun which is a one hand operation verses the lever type the needs two hands to operate.
If you decide to replace the 1/4" bolts on the spindle pulleys, look at the parts manual to see the breakdown of the pulleys. These bolts lock the pulleys in place as has been mentioned by SeniorCitizen.
Gotta get going before the rain comes and cleanup some leaves!
Later
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Sep 25, 2014#17

S

SeniorCitizen

David Giles said:
Thanks SC! But not being a mechanic, I'm not sure if I understand what they mean by "the cap screws are used as pull-wrench only" and "the cap screws are taken out and used as jack screws". Can you explain that a bit? Or maybe just point me to something online that explains the process in non-mechanic terms (or maybe a video)?

EDIT: Okay after thinking about it, I THINK I figured out what they mean by "the cap screws are used as pull-wrench only" and "the cap screws are taken out and used as jack screws".

Yes, most would call those two bolts. They are what pulled the two tapers together. To dis-assemble, those two bolts are removed and placed in the other two threaded holes to push the pulley from the tapered bushing.

This system is the best there is and any manufacturer using it is looking to manufacturer quality.

Sep 25, 2014#18

David Giles

Mad Mackie said:
Look in the owners manual for the spec on spindle grease. This grease can be used on the entire machine eliminating the need for two different types of grease. I use the pistol grip type grease gun which is a one hand operation verses the lever type the needs two hands to operate.
If you decide to replace the 1/4" bolts on the spindle pulleys, look at the parts manual to see the breakdown of the pulleys. These bolts lock the pulleys in place as has been mentioned by SeniorCitizen.
Gotta get going before the rain comes and cleanup some leaves!
Later
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Excellent info MM! I'll pick up some Timken grease and a pistol grip gun with 90 degree fitting today.

Sep 25, 2014#19

David Giles

SeniorCitizen said:
Yes, most would call those two bolts. They are what pulled the two tapers together. To dis-assemble, those two bolts are removed and placed in the other two threaded holes to push the pulley from the tapered bushing.

This system is the best there is and any manufacturer using it is looking to manufacturer quality.

Yeah it sounded a lot less scary after I thought about it for a minute.

Thanks SC!

Sep 25, 2014#20

M

motoman

A word on quality of fasteners...A few years back there was a serious influx of "black market" fasteners from other countries. The US feds implemented a manufacturers' index(on line) which (supposedly) captured the source and addresses of fastener manufacturers. But the quality is still self implemented. Bolt heads , for instance, are imbossed with tensile strength (slash marks and numbers), and company name (abbreviation). But marginal product still comes in and (I'll guess) OEM tractor factories are just as vulnerable as us tractor enthusiasts. Once again, the quality systems in place are important. I bought some "grade 6" galvo cap screws a while back at a weld shop which quickly rusted. Seems to me the bolts pictured had marginal plating. They look like they were in a salt spray test. There are some hi strength fasteners with nickel that may or not be considered "stainless," but like Mackie says, torque values must be maintained. (whew, more soap box )

Sep 25, 2014#21

K

kwak

David Giles said:
Okay thanks for the info MM! I'll order exact replacements on the bolts and nuts.

I would ask the dealer if he would replace them before I bought some. It would be worth a shot.

Sep 25, 2014#22

David Giles

kwak said:
I would ask the dealer if he would replace them before I bought some. It would be worth a shot.

Yeah I WISH I had noticed yesterday and had the dealer change them out while they had the machine. But unfortunately the dealer is about a 45 minute drive, so it would cost me less to order from McMaster, or just buy them locally.

Sep 25, 2014#23

reynoldston

As I see it you are over reacting. Put a little paint on the bolts if you don't like the looks of them, then use and enjoy your mower. Its a mower not a show peace.

Sep 25, 2014#24

Fish

The unit likely was shifted from a dealer that stored his new units outside, and the dist. and maybe your dealer are playing a little shell game with you....

Sep 25, 2014#25

Fish

Fish said:
The unit likely was shifted from a dealer that stored his new units outside, and the dist. and maybe your dealer are playing a little shell game with you....

It may even be a 2012 model.......

Sep 25, 2014#26

M

Mad Mackie

reynoldston said:
As I see it you are over reacting. Put a little paint on the bolts if you don't like the looks of them, then use and enjoy your mower. Its a mower not a show peace.

Of course reynoldston, everyone that I have done business with over the last 58 years was always very happy receiving a new product with weeping rust and had no problem dabbing paint to cover up the rust, Yea right!!!! Let me check my list, just as I thought, nobody!!!

Sep 25, 2014#27

M

Mad Mackie

Fish said:
It may even be a 2012 model.......

Very likely had been stored outside still crated but not completely covered.
Also the online operators manual had been updated with REV. 01 on 2/2013, so it may very well be a 2012 model which is OK as Scag does 2 year runs of most models and they don't designate specific model years to their machines.
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Sep 25, 2014#28

David Giles

reynoldston said:
As I see it you are over reacting. Put a little paint on the bolts if you don't like the looks of them, then use and enjoy your mower. Its a mower not a show peace.

I wasn't concerned about the "look" of the rust, and I don't expect this mower to be a show piece. But I would like to get the maximum service life out of this machine (or maximum resale value if that is ever necessary) and I'd rather not give rust a head start on degrading the functionality, serviceability, OR resale value of the unit. So if you consider replacing three or four rusty bolts with fresh bolts to be over reacting, then I'm guilty as charged.

Sep 25, 2014#29

David Giles

Fish said:
The unit likely was shifted from a dealer that stored his new units outside, and the dist. and maybe your dealer are playing a little shell game with you...

It may even be a 2012 model.......

Based on the Serial number I do think it was manufactured in 2012. And you're right that it could have spent some time at another dealer's facility and was possibly stored outside at some point. But other than the rust on the bolts mentioned, the REST of the machine was immaculate with no other sign of rust, scratches, dust, grass, oil, etc. It literally looked like it just came out of the crate. The engine runs perfectly and it cuts like a dream. And I got a fantastic deal on it, so believe me I don't mind changing out two or three bolts to fix the ONLY problem on the whole machine. :thumbsup:

Sep 25, 2014#30

M

Mad Mackie

Hi David,
There is an engine manufacturers production date code on the engine data plate, this would give you a better idea of machine manufacture date as most machines are built within 3-6 months of engine production date. At the moment I don't recall how to interpret the Kawasaki code, but it is usually fairly easy to do. My Tiger Cub was built in early 2007 and I purchased it in Aug of 2008 as a new machine and this is a normal situation. At that time I didn't know that the Tiger Cat would soon be released, but I needed a machine that day or soon after and my dealer had it in stock and ready to deliver.
Anyway, enjoy your new Tiger Cat and with 48 month no interest, it is a dream!!!
I would really like to buy a new 52" Tiger Cat, but my bride asked me what I thought of turning 75 before paying off the machine, my reply was what is wrong with paying cash, and her usual comment was " not only are you broke, but you are in debt", so I replied, "what is your point!!!!"
This is our usual back and forth!!!! This happens all the time!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Sep 25, 2014#31

David Giles

I'll check the engine manufacture date in the morning and let you know what I find.

Just keep chipping away at your wife's resolve and who knows maybe she'll cave. :biggrin:

Sep 25, 2014#32

M

Mad Mackie

Every now and then I tell her that I'll trade her in for two 35 year olds with "new tires"!!! But I need to change my line, gotta come up with a new one!!! I used to use swapping her for a rich widow that likes to fish and owns a liquor distributorship, but this got old too!!!!

I'm going to start a new thread and post the pics of the grease fitting mods that I have done to make lubing these machines easier.
Later
Mad Mackie in CT, I should say Taxonnecticut!!!:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Sep 26, 2014#33

gfp55

David Giles said:
Hey folks, I'm the proud new owner of a brand new Tiger Cat 61" that I just picked up from the dealer's showroom yesterday. It looks pretty much perfect, as you would expect of a brand new machine, EXCEPT for some unexpected rust on the bolts on top of the spindle pulleys. I can't find any other rust or other problems at all. Is rust in that spot normal on these machines, and should I be concerned?

Here's what I'm talking about:

View attachment 23438

David

This is just and cost cutting move by the manufacturer. If they use cheap nuts and bolts some suit gets a raise.

Sep 26, 2014#34

reynoldston

David Giles said:
I wasn't concerned about the "look" of the rust, and I don't expect this mower to be a show piece. But I would like to get the maximum service life out of this machine (or maximum resale value if that is ever necessary) and I'd rather not give rust a head start on degrading the functionality, serviceability, OR resale value of the unit. So if you consider replacing three or four rusty bolts with fresh bolts to be over reacting, then I'm guilty as charged.

First of all when I buy a mower like you just bought I would NOT be thinking of resale. My thoughts would be how many years can I keep and run this mower. Yes by all means if the rusty bolts are a problem with you I guess do something with them or the mower. From what I see in the picture they will not have anything to do service life. If I had bought the mower I look at what I am buying and something I didn't like would be taken care of before I paid for it and be looking for a nice discount. ( Its too late now) Also being in the repair end of mowers I would be running that mower and not give the bolts a second though. Its only surface rust. But also its your mower and money and you know what you want so just do it. What different dose it mean to you what I think?? Yes its a lot of entertainment writing on this forum.

Sep 26, 2014#35

David Giles

Well we jacked up the mower today, and removed the blades. I've read horror stories about getting those bolts off for the first time (and I was especially concerned because of the rust so nearby). But they didn't stand a chance against an impact wrench with 1000 ft. lbs. of torque.

The nuts came right off, and we didn't find any rust on the threads of the bolts or nuts. We also checked the PTO clutch while we were under there, and didn't find any rust or corrosion at all.

So other than the rust on the bolts in my earlier photo, everything else seems to be in tip-top shape! :dance1:

Sep 26, 2014#36

David Giles

gfp55 said:
This is just and cost cutting move by the manufacturer. If they use cheap nuts and bolts some suit gets a raise.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Since we can't find rust ANYWHERE else on the machine, it just seems like those particular bolts must have been poor quality from the factory (and may even have had a spot of rust on them when originally installed?) Anyway, thankfully the rust was limited to something easily (and cheaply) replaceable.

Sep 26, 2014#37

David Giles

Mad Mackie said:
I'm going to start a new thread and post the pics of the grease fitting mods that I have done to make lubing these machines easier.

Cool! We'll try to install those same mods sometime next week. Thanks MM!

Sep 29, 2014#38

David Giles

Okay so I stopped by our local Fastenal this morning and picked up six new EXACT replacement bolts for under two bucks. And we removed the three main pulleys and QD bushings and cleaned them all up nicely with steel wool. I realize that some may still feel that I was overreacting and that it was a waste of time and money. But for the minimal amount of time and money we invested I'm very pleased with the results and it was WELL worth it to me, simply for the peace of mind. :thumbsup:

Sep 29, 2014#39

M

Mad Mackie

As most places that sell bolts/nuts, price them by weight and not per each, lots of nice hardware can be bought.
For sure, peace of mind is a good thing particularly when one has control over the situation with an easy resolve!!!
Having been an aircraft mech both in the military and civilian worlds, the correct hardware is close to my heart, still!!!! The paper chase that should follow FAA approved hardware is a serious thing, even down to lock washers which are not frequently used on aircraft.!!!
Mad Mackie in CT:laughing::biggrin::smile:

Sep 29, 2014#40

gfp55

Yes, peace of mind is feeling. Who cares what others think, its your mind and your money. Good job.

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