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What is the forum's opinion?

I have a 2017 cub cadet with a Kohler 7000 command and plan to do oil every 50hrs and filter every 100hrs using a Fran ultra. The oil is T5 10w-30.

As a side-note, my car Toyota V6's OCI is 5000 mi and a Fram ultra every 10K mi. The car says I average 37mi/hr or 270 hrs for 10K mi. So far my Blackstone oil analysis has been normal.

In theory, I could do OCI every 100hrs and Fram ultra every 200hrs.
But this is an air cooled engine and 200 hrs it would take 8 years.

I guess I don't understand your reasoning. For what little cost and labor why not change oil and filter every 50 hours. ???? Why would you use a dirty oil filter with fresh oil?
Just think of the big savings you would have with the 200 hour oil changes so I say go for it.

Change it once a year.

I would not use a Fram filter if others are available.

cpurvis said:

Change it once a year.

I would not use a Fram filter if others are available.

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This is what I do and most all my customers, the once a year oil and filter change. The OP didn't say how many hours he puts on his mower in a years time. I have used Fram filters in the pass when that is all I had and have to say never had a problem with them.

reynoldston said:

This is what I do and most all my customers, the once a year oil and filter change. The OP didn't say how many hours he puts on his mower in a years time. I have used Fram filters in the pass when that is all I had and have to say never had a problem with them.

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I never had a problem with Fram, either, and I've used a lot of them. Then I read that Fram is the most counterfeited brand of oil filter and I'd like to avoid that. That's why I don't use them now.

I put on approx 25 hrs/yr for a season. Oil filters are most efficient when they are loaded with debris and the lifetime of dry starts after a oil change are kept at minimum. Fram synthetic filters -ultras on my toyota can do 10K mi and post oil analysis at Blackstone labs verify normal wear metal averages.

I do oil and filter changes together every 100 hours using genuine engine-branded filters and oil, in my case Kawasaki. I'm not in a position to second guess my engine manufacturer's choice of oil and filters...I figure they probably know more about them than me and have engineered them specifically for their products.

I believe Kohler recommends oil and filter every 100hr.
Cub Cadet recommends both every 50hrs.

Unless you are a commercial mower, change the oil and filter at the end of every season.
Keeps things simple.
Immediatly the mower comes in from the last mow drain the oil , change the oil, filter, air filter and grease the mower then run it for a few minutes to circulate the oil and fill the filter, turn off the fuel, run the carb dry, remove the blower housing to clean out any debris around the cooling fins then LEAVE THE COVER OFF, you might need to plug the end of the carb to prevent small animals taking residence in there, pump the tyres up and if you are really fanatical put the mower on jack stands wheels off the ground.

For most users this will be more than enough.
If you feel the intervals are too long then pick a particular weekend mid season for a mid season oil change.
Do it at the same time every year and it will get done.
Watch the hour meter and you will never get around to doing it.

It has taken 5 years but I ave finally got most of the customers on a 1, 2 or 3 year service regular service set by a date so it can go in the diary and actually happen.

Oil & Filter are about the lowest cost items on a machine. I average 25 hours a year. If I only put 5 hours on in a year, I would still do oil & filter change. Oil doesn't break down, but the additives do.

Did you ever see the Date the oil was made stamped on back lower part of oil jugs ? That's when it was made, If that date is more than 5 years old, I won't buy that oil.

I do my full service at end of each mowing year.

Then I enter the hours & date into my log.

For most of my life, I have been keeping it simple: 3 months or 3000 mi OCI. Dad taught me that mantra until the mid-1990 when I was comfortable with Mobil 1 and oil filter(cellulose media) change every 5K mi. It wasn't until 2014 that I agreed with Toyota synthetic oil/filter 10K OCI. Blackstone's used oil data analysis confirmed Toyota's service wasn't out of line.
For the residential mower, I agree for most people the end of season engine OCI is the best plan. A no brainer and follows common sense. But today's synthetic oil/filters is a game changer and Dad's mantra is outdated.

As I get older, I tend not to follow but listen, leverage the latest technology and adapt.

I would like to say that there are two different types of people in this world; those who do things by their manuals, and those who don't. Of course there are a dozen or so variations in there but at the end of the day, if you cannot or will not follow the manufacturer's recommendations for changing your oil, how can you expect the most out of your engine. This doesn't just go for the oil change, but for the operation of that equipment. It still boggles my mind how today, in 2018 we still have Uncle Ed's and Jiffy Lube saying that you need to change your oil every 3,000 miles when in most cases you can go twice that with absolutely no harm being done to your engine. Here is a perfect example: My 1998 Mustang GT 4.6 stated in the Owner's Manual that the oil should be changed every 5,000 miles unless the vehicle is being used for "service" such as delivery, taxi or where excessive idling is to occur. Wow, 20 years ago I could go 5,000 miles between oil changes, using conventional oil and in a car that had 8 cylinders at that. At the same time BMW could push 10,000 miles out of synthetic in their cars. Anyway, to answer the question from my point of view....

Although filters made by FRAM, Purolator or whoever may "fit" your engine, it does not mean that they are "meant" for your engine. There are only so many filter diameters and thread patterns to which a filter can have so eventually there will be some that "fit" your engine, but that may be all it does. Each and every oil or hydraulic filter is not made equally. Bypass pressure, filtering efficiency and capacity are examples of things that should be relatively specific to your engine/application. Briggs, Kawasaki, Honda and Kohler all offer their own filters that fit their engines; filters engineered/intended specifically for their engines. While they may not make the filters, their suppliers are required to make them to THEIR specs. Considering how often someone changes their oil, it all comes down to this: The average homeowner will only use their equipment enough to warrant changing the oil once per mowing season (50-100 hours). Obviously if you live in the warmer climates and you have a longer mowing season, you may want to change it two times a year, but chances are your oil is not degrading as quickly as the oil in a machine that is subject to more cold starts. As for cold starts, anyone that uses their rider type mower all year-round, should be changing from a straight oil to a multi-viscosity in the fall and spring anyway (changing filter at the same time as well). This helps to keep the engine running at its optimal all year-round. commercial users may change their oil 20 times a season (arbitrary number) but hey, their making money off of their equipment so they should run their business and quote their jobs with this in mind. Their equipment must RUN to keep their revenue coming in.

You may find people on here that are sympathetic to your intentions such as saving a few bucks, getting a filter anywhere you want or whatever, but I would think that most people who care at all about their equipment, will stick to what their manual specifies.

I would like to say that there are two different types of people in this world; those who do things by their manuals, and those who don't. Of course

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I would guess there are more than two categories of people.

Cat 1--Those who buy new equipment and pore over the manual, using only manufacturer's labeled parts, and maybe taking the extra step, such as oil analysis.

Cat 2--Those who buy new equipment, skim through the manual and throw it in a drawer.

Cat 3--Those who buy new equipment, throw the manual in a drawer and skim through it only after a problem occurs.

Cat 4--Those who buy used equipment and have no manual at all.

I agree completely with using OEM filters IF no direct cross over can be found. But if one can be found, you're getting a filter that meets or exceeds OEM specs and is usually less expensive.

This is not a knock on the members of the lawnmowerforum but they are more technically conservative than members of the bob the oil guy forum. On their automotive fotum, Blackstone oil used analysis and virgin oil analysis are commonly posted discussions. Can't see residential mowers spending $20 per oil analysis for 50hrs of engine time that only holds 2qts. Commercial mowers can't be bothered since it is more economical to do more mowing and make money.

FWIW I was indrectly involved in the first use of X-ray diffraction to analyse engine oil.
A wonderful idea and after only 2 years we had tabulated enough data to be able to predict wear in .00001" incriments.
Because this was X-Ray diffraction we could determine which alloy we were looking at and as in helicopter engines almost every part is a different alloy we could be quite specific as to what was wearing.
Exceptionally interesting but ultimately got closed down because those higher up in the pecking order could not comprehend what the lines on the screen were and would much rather trust technicians pull down & measure.
Flame chromotography was also another thing that originated down here but in reality is not particularly use full as while you know there is more iron in the oil you don't know weather it is from a piston ring, crank journal or cylinder liner.
I am not sure what methods Blackstone use but for their price it has to be either flame chromotography , Atomic adsorption , or MRI, done on an automated production line process.

As a one off, an oil analysis is less than useless.
You have to start doing them from day one and plot the results.
Furthermore the plotted results need to be correlated to actual measured wear and this will be different for every engine.
Add to this the massive errors that can be introduced with sampleing techniques so to be effective the same person needs to do all of the sampleing under the same conditions.

It would surprise me if it was not flavour of the month on any oil forum as without contradiction , the less people understand about any "exotic" topic the more they flap their gums about it.
After all detergent oils have been around since the wide spread adoption of external oil filters , yet 9 out of 10 will happily tell you that a detergent will wash your engine spotlessly clean inside, showing that they have a zero understanding about oils.
And the worst thing about that is Wikki actually has the definition of detergncy almost correct.

As for forum members being conservative I would say it was more like their heads well far less up their own posteriour than most other forums.
After all we are talking about cheap engines that run in cheap devices and use a tiny amount of oil , which as you know is the cheapest part you can put in your engine.
For the cost of a single determination you could change the oil 4 times and I KNOW which would be the best for the engine.

Understanding that the oil debate is one that will never die, I do want to say that each and every person on here, with maybe the exception of 1 or 2 mad scientists that claim to have actual experience in oil analysis, is going to provide the most SUBJECTIVE opinion of oil, filters, maintenance, etc.

Contrary to what many may think, manufacturer's would like consumers to have the best possible experience with their products. No, they do not make things that will last for ever, but it is in their best interests if the product they sell keep their customers happy and returning. With that being said, the operator's manual lists what the manufacturer suggests/recommends for consumers to get the most out of their equipment. This will usually be conservative maintenance schedules, using oem (suppliers) parts and so on. Any deviation from what the manual says is simply taking a risk. A risk that your engine will crap out on you in two years, or maybe a risk that it lasts forever (yes, risk can be positive too). But following the manual should instill in most people a degree of certainty that deviation cannot and should not.

To each his own.....

Well my Kawasaki owners manual says change oil @ 200 hours, & filter @ 300 hours.

I average 25 hours a year, so I do my services at end of each year of mowing. Oil doesn't wear out but the additives do.

FYI recent California study. Recommends synthetic oil & filter. Honda automotive recommends oil filter change and every other OCI.
http://www.dtsc.ca.gov/TechnologyDevelopment/OPPTD_FLY_High-Efficiency-Oil-Filters.cfm

The FRAM bashing is somewhat justified, I guess, but early death from them may be an overstatement. I have had several whose threads would not start. These are the cheapies ($4 Walmart). I see a shootout on you tube with dissection of the $10 Fram which finished 2nd out of 5. I tried 2 of these on my car. If filters can be judged by weight these are much heavier than the $4. I seek out WIX now, but cannot always find certain PNs locally.

Just to point out that you can use the best oil and the best filter and still destroy your engine...it doesn't make it immune to abuse. Constantly trying to jam your mower through tall lush growth traveling too fast and failure to keep the engine free of external debris will likely do more damage than letting your oil change interval slip a bit or using cheap oil and filters.

Darryl G said:

Just to point out that you can use the best oil and the best filter and still destroy your engine...it doesn't make it immune to abuse. Constantly trying to jam your mower through tall lush growth traveling too fast and failure to keep the engine free of external debris will likely do more damage than letting your oil change interval slip a bit or using cheap oil and filters.

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So true. Most often, the manual will state to check your oil level before every use. If you notice any drastic change in discoloration or anything out of the "ordinary" then you may in fact be due for an oil change. This can happen after 20 hours, or after 100. All depends on how much of a load the engine is under, how well the air filter is working, how many starts were cold and so on...

7394 said:

Well my Kawasaki owners manual says change oil @ 200 hours, & filter @ 300 hours.

I average 25 hours a year, so I do my services at end of each year of mowing. Oil doesn't wear out but the additives do.

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Quite right.
Additives oxadize over time, even if the engine is never run for a single second.
While this does not happen overnight, it does happen.

Darryl G said:

Just to point out that you can use the best oil and the best filter and still destroy your engine...it doesn't make it immune to abuse. Constantly trying to jam your mower through tall lush growth traveling too fast and failure to keep the engine free of external debris will likely do more damage than letting your oil change interval slip a bit or using cheap oil and filters.

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If you read the fine print in all of these "Tests" and recommended oil change intervals, some where and usually only once will be the word "continious" running.
Also usually there will be both a running hours and a lapsed time, whichever comes first.
Intermittant use items like lawn mowers really should have the oil replaced each & every season, at the end of the season and by prefference just after the final mow of the season, the instant it comes off the lawn.
Weather you change the filter with every oil change is another moot point.
While it might not be "full" to its capacity of particulates, it will still have a quantity of spent oil in it which will contaminate the fresh oil you put in.
Since replacing the oil & filter on most mower engines run sub $ 20 it is sort of a no brainer.

Not that racing is directly compariabe to mowing, most racers I know replace their oil each meet and the really competative ones after each race.

Oil companies & filter companies are always trying to convince customers that their new flash high tech product is substantially better than their previous flash high tech product and the usual way is by claiming that it will run for longer in their engines thus cost you less which charging you more .

Fram ultra 3416 cut open at 14.5K mi and the silicone anti-drain back valve can survive the air-cooled engine's heat.


https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...88/Re:_Fram_Ultra_XG3614,_14,500_#Post4531788

Just updated with 114 hrs.
Probably it can do 150-200hrs.


https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4767985/Fram_Ultra_3600_1_year_114_hou

Fresh Oil & a new Filter ....... ALWAYS ... comes out cheaper than a replacement engine, ..... ANY DAY !!!

Boobala said:

Fresh Oil & a new Filter ....... ALWAYS ... comes out cheaper than a replacement engine, ..... ANY DAY !!!

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Ditto................:thumbsup:

Visually comparing the filter color condition between the above posted links 14.5K mi vs Kohler 114hrs, the Kohler retains most of its original pink media filtration color. Very similar to my Toyota V6 Fram ultra XG9912 when it is brand new and before an oil change. ( will post pic later)

Yes, I also have an inner urge to change the oil & filter every mowing season. It is cheap $20 insurance, you don’t have to keep detailed maintenance logs and a obvious no-brainer. It gives me something to look forward to every spring and a wonderful feel good that I complied with mainstream scheduled maintenance.

Unfortunately, non-OPE automotive oil/filter data indicate otherwise and is supported with personal Blackstone Labs oil analysis@70K mi with particle count micron data.

Therefore, I have chosen to be more progressive in my maintenance schedule. It is not about the annual $20 but how the current data supports my decision versus past historical experience.

Well after reading THAT.......... I'm gonna sleep much better from now on !!

The owner of the Kohler engine @114hrs on the filter responded. He says the engine has 525hrs and always ran Mobil 1 10w30 with fill being PP10w30.

The filter looks amazingly clean.

More uoa data that supports the Fram Ultra filter and longer drain intervals without compromising TBN levels.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4782982/The_drains_are_getting_looonge

Patrick0525 said:

The filter looks amazingly clean.

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That can be good or bad.

Either there is nothing in your engine for the filter to catch, or the oil isn't picking it up and giving the filter a chance to catch it.

I don’t think his filter on the Kohler engine is going into by-pass mode.

It can't bypass until the filter is clogged or nearly so. This one is obviously not in that condition.

Patrick0525 said:

More uoa data that supports the Fram Ultra filter and longer drain intervals without compromising TBN levels.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4782982/The_drains_are_getting_looonge

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A car is not a mower.
If a mower was a car then we would be using standard automotive oils in our mowers as they are made in larger volumes & are cheaper.
Most mower engines had no bearings or bushes, everything runs directly on the alloy case.
Most mower engines are air cooled unlike cars which are temperature controlled.
Using data from one to make decisions on the other is just plain ignorant.
And yes auto engines are being designed to run for longer without changing the oil, it is a major research & design criteria.
Mowers on the other hand are being designed to be cheaper, not better.
When you find tollerances on mower engine specified in 0.00001" then you can start making comparrisons.

I put 50 hours or more on both a Honda HRX Self Propelled mower and an Exmark Lazer Z every year and at the end of the season the oil inside is still golden yellow/brown. I only use genuine Honda and Briggs SAE 30 oil and genuine Briggs filter in the Exmark. While I cannot say whether or not a different oil or filter would yield the same results, I cannot justify changing what I do to save a couple of bucks. $50 a year to change oil in a $600 push mower and $7000 zero turn is nothing!

bertsmobile1 said:

When you find tollerances on mower engine specified in 0.00001" then you can start making comparrisons.

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You're not going to find any 1/100,000ths inch tolerances in a car engine, either.

The lazer controlled grinding gear measures down to those levels.
Parallel tollerance on journals in tenths of a thou.
On a mower engine they are in plain thou.

All engines are pressure fed everywhere except on the little end eyes and some use bleed off holes in the big ends to do that.

Nearly all mower engines are fully splash except the big ends on twins.

And never the less extrapolating the results from one class of an engine to cover a totally different class is pure trash engineering.
Remember when we went to unleaded fuel ?
only meaning research that was done was with avaition engines and they found significant valve seat regression under lean burn conditions above 10,000'
Then every 1/2 wit journalist blindly applied this to cars and the great head pannic resulted.
Good if you owned a head shop but totally irrevelent to normal car & truck use.

Test data only proves theories for the equipment being tested under the test conditions