Non ethanol fuel question

TonyPrin

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Water is in contact. Water plus oxygen makes rust.
Agreed. But water in ethanol suspension is dispersed throughout the tank (mostly away from the tank wall) while water not in suspension is concentrated at the bottom wall of the tank.

Clearly you have never disassembled a carburetor or fuel injector which which sat unused with water in ethanol gasoline.

Ethanol gasoline phase separation is the ethanol + water falling out of solution. If only water fell out no one would care, but the mix is nasty.
Through the years I've worked on many carburetors but never compared them. I've seen extensive slime and residue in them for years, long before E10 existed. Gasoline with or without ethanol shouldn't be kept in the carburetor long term.

That's not to say phase separation isn't an issue and I agree phase separation must be avoided.

Finally, it's not debated that water in a gas tank will cause rust. But first you say, "water is in contact. Water plus oxygen makes rust". Three sentences later you say, "if only water fell out no one would care". It can't be both.
 
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sessman55

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The new Sheetz gas station near our house happens to sell ethanol free fuel, however the octane rating seems to be 90 (instead of the usual 87)
Is this higher octane safe for my Kohler VTwinand for my Honda self propelled mower?
.the higher octane rating will not adversely affect your engine.
 

TobyU

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I have been using 93 octane non ethanol in my bad boy (kohler 27hp twin) and all my small engines for three years. Carb problems went away, even in winter slow season. Fuel is cheaper than a new engine. Don't neglect routine maint like air filters, fuel filters and regular oil/filter changes. Also, in spring remove air shroud and check for clogged cooling fins. Happy mowing!
Well, first of all carb problems or fuel related issues are never going to cause you to need a new engine! They are simply aggravating.
Secondly, I haven't used 1 oz of fuel that didn't have 10% ethanol in it for probably the past 22 years.
This is not because I wanted to but because all the stations went to that so I didn't have a convenient choice and now that I do I'm not going to pay a dollar to a dollar and 10 cents more for ethanol free.
I simply started using sta-bil, the plain old original version at 1 oz for every gallon of fuel which used to be the long-term storage recommendation for up to 2 years and I have had no carburetor or fuel issues since then.
 

TobyU

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A note of clarification, on my Kohler I run an offset key on the flywheel, giving me about 32 degrees of total advanced ignition. So the 93 octane is a benefit and I can mow at 2500 to 2800 rpm without my engine bogging and it runs cooler and more economical. Keep blades sharp!
Keep telling yourself that but trust me it's not the case on most engines and probably not yours either.
Have you really used a degree wheel or a timing light with a degree dial to check your total advance?

Sure, a lot of us did this on our old hot rods and muscle cars but these engines are not that! Lol
They are low performance little turds with maybe 7.2 to 1 compression ratio on a good day. Lol
They are beyond laughable that a 597 CC twin engine in 2024 puts out 22 maybe 24 horsepower when a 550 cc Japanese sport bike engine in 1987 put out 84 horsepower and for over 20 something years they've been putting out well over 100.
I will repeat, lawn mower engines are low performance little turds!
If you want to get more performance and non-bogging out of your engine, you would likely do better with carburetor or intake modification and or valve adjustment since most of these where extremely to the loose side and you're losing a little bit of valuable lift.
Maybe even exhaust modification.
Now I'm not going to say that timing has nothing to do with it but I find it far easier to adjust the RPMs and the governor spring especially if it has multiple holes in the arm to give it faster adjustment ability and it hits a harder load then to remove shrouds and fly wheels and do offset keys etc.
But to each their own.
 

TobyU

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Agreed. But water in ethanol suspension is dispersed throughout the tank (mostly away from the tank wall) while water not in suspension is concentrated at the bottom wall of the tank.


Through the years I've worked on many carburetors but never compared them. I've seen extensive slime and residue in them for years, long before E10 existed. Gasoline with or without ethanol shouldn't be kept in the carburetor long term.

That's not to say phase separation isn't an issue and I agree phase separation must be avoided.

Finally, it's not debated that water in a gas tank will cause rust. But first you say, "water is in contact. Water plus oxygen makes rust". Three sentences later you say, "if only water fell out no one would care". It can't be both.
I too was having to clean out the carburetor bowl on Tecumseh engines back in the seventies and early '80s way before any of the fuel had 10% ethanol in it.
You would typically find a big what I call grease bubble floating around but more than likely a water and moisture bubble.
Once you dumped the bowl and let some fresh gas run through, it was good to go.
 

GearHead36

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They are beyond laughable that a 597 CC twin engine in 2024 puts out 22 maybe 24 horsepower when a 550 cc Japanese sport bike engine in 1987 put out 84 horsepower and for over 20 something years they've been putting out well over 100.
I will repeat, lawn mower engines are low performance little turds!
I disagree. I used to be "into motorcycles". Yes, they generate a LOT of power for their displacement, but they do it at 10000+ RPM's. OPE engines are typically rated at 3600 RPM. RPMs make all the difference. See what the sportbike engines produce at 3600. Also OPE engines are designed to survive much of the abuse and neglect they tend to experience. Yes they have low compression ratios, but they will also survive lots of abuse. I bought a ZTR with a Kohler Confidant engine. I used it for a half season. In the off season, I found that the cylinder cooling fins were almost completely blocked, and it still survived. Most of it's cooling capacity had been disabled, and it still survived. Remove the cooling from a motorcycle engine, and see how long it lasts.

Not to denigrate motorcycle engines. If you want that kind of performance, you best keep up with the maintenance. They often get abused, too, but in a different way. They're remarkable examples of engineering. But OPE engines are good too. Just a different set of design criteria.
 

TobyU

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I disagree. I used to be "into motorcycles". Yes, they generate a LOT of power for their displacement, but they do it at 10000+ RPM's. OPE engines are typically rated at 3600 RPM. RPMs make all the difference. See what the sportbike engines produce at 3600. Also OPE engines are designed to survive much of the abuse and neglect they tend to experience. Yes they have low compression ratios, but they will also survive lots of abuse. I bought a ZTR with a Kohler Confidant engine. I used it for a half season. In the off season, I found that the cylinder cooling fins were almost completely blocked, and it still survived. Most of it's cooling capacity had been disabled, and it still survived. Remove the cooling from a motorcycle engine, and see how long it lasts.

Not to denigrate motorcycle engines. If you want that kind of performance, you best keep up with the maintenance. They often get abused, too, but in a different way. They're remarkable examples of engineering. But OPE engines are good too. Just a different set of design criteria.
I'm not sure which part of my statement you're disagreeing with but it's still quite factual.
Now, my comment that they are low performance little turds has some opinionated flair to it but they are in fact low performance compared to most any of those motorcycle engines were talking about.
Sure, there are lots of other differences but they are certainly low performance compared to them.

You are comparing RPMs in connection to horsepower but then again, this further confirms and supports that they are low performance little turds because they aren't capable of doing 8,500 to 12,000 RPMs and sustaining it like the motorcycle engines are and even if they did I doubt you would see anywhere above 60% of the power the motorcycles produce.

So I'm not sure which part you're taking issue with but tons of what I said is factual.

The one thing that I also always say about these engines that I did not put in my first post is while they are low performance little turds, they are also VERY FORGIVING. Lol
They put up with decades of abuse and neglect and keep on doing their job quite well.
But often seems to be the case that high quality, precision equipment can be more delicate and need more maintenance and care given to it in operation whereas crude old rudimentary basic stuff is tolerant of about everything.

So I really love these small air cooled engines, in fact I like them far more than motorcycle engines and I think they are the right tool for the job which is always important.
I'm simply not impressed by the horsepower but they shouldn't be trying to impress me or anyone for that matter.
The entire horsepower game is a joke because no one needs 20 horsepower to cut their grass with a 42-in rider!
In fact, people were doing it for decades with 12 and 14 horsepower engines and even those were probably slightly inflated with their specs but not nearly to the degree they were later.

I also don't need to be impressed with the latest and greatest and auto chokes and fuel injection etc.
I don't want more things to go wrong or more things for more people to have to learn or get adjusted to.

Let's just stay the course and get all the bugs worked out and by this point in time they should have been able to make a lawnmower engine that's darn near bulletproof that lasts the minimum 20 years but of course that would be counterproductive for them.

I want simplicity, durability and longevity and many of these engines over the decades have given all three.
 

GearHead36

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I'm not sure which part of my statement you're disagreeing with but it's still quite factual.
This part:
I will repeat, lawn mower engines are low performance little turds!
If your evaluation of an engine's "turdness" is equated solely to HP, then, yes, OPE engines are turds. They don't put out NEAR the HP per liter of motorcycle engines. I evaluate engines on their suitability for the task. In that sense, OPE engines are just fine for the job they do. Maybe even great. Most of them last a long time with very little attention*. I'm often amazed when I see an engine that is several years old, has had zero oil changes (or any other maintenance), and still runs fine once you do some maintenance on it.

* We won't talk about Inteks or Courages. 😂

The one thing that I also always say about these engines that I did not put in my first post is while they are low performance little turds, they are also VERY FORGIVING. Lol
They put up with decades of abuse and neglect and keep on doing their job quite well.
But often seems to be the case that high quality, precision equipment can be more delicate and need more maintenance and care given to it in operation whereas crude old rudimentary basic stuff is tolerant of about everything.
So you actually agree with me. You just get hung up over the power output. That very forgiving nature is a design criteria, which dictates operating at low levels of stress on the engine.

The entire horsepower game is a joke because no one needs 20 horsepower to cut their grass with a 42-in rider!
My current ZTR has a 27HP engine and 54" deck. Is it overpowered? I don't think so. If the grass is thick and tall because it hasn't dried out in a week, and it's a week overdue for mowing, that 27HP (or whatever it is) seems to be just enough to power through without significant bogging. I still have to slow down, but only a little. My previous ZTR had 17HP and a 48" deck, and it was definitely underpowered. In that same tall grass, I would have to slow almost to a crawl to keep it from choking. Does my current ZTR have 27HP? I don't know. Did my old one have 17HP? Don't know that either, and I don't care. The newer one gives a good cut without me having to slow way down, and that's what I care about. Maybe nobody needs 20HP for a 42" rider, and maybe that "20HP engine" doesn't really have 20HP, but I DO think mowers today have more power than they did before, and I have no problem with that. If you typically only use half of that power, the engine will last longer.
 
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