New Honda HRX217 self-propelled_water in gas_maybe other starting issues.

[GrowinWeeds]

I've read some Honda mower posts w/ interest (here & couple other "lawn equip" forums).
Bought self-propelled Mod. HRX217 late in 2021 - mowed & mulched leaves a few times before end of season - several gas refills, w/ no problems.

FYI, I've used Startron in gas for mowers & mix for several 2 cycle - not a single problem.
(I'm not assoc. w/ that product nor get compensation from the mfg or retailers).

This yr, added some NEW gas w/ the named stabilizer in the Honda. It started - ran a few seconds, then died (fuel valve OPEN). Then only fired once on a pull - never started.
Checked all the normal suspects - all good.
Finally drained gas from tank & the carb bowl - had small amt of water in the carb bowl (maybe 1/16 tsp). Put new gas (w/stabilizer). It started & mowed all back yard.

Stopped to rest maybe 30 min. Moved to front yard (engine OFF). Wouldn't start.
So engine was warm - not hot. I looked at carb butterfly - it was closed (there's a stop, always leaves a small gap, even if choke's closed). Would only fire once (if that), wouldn't start.

Drained carb bowl a SECOND time - this time no visible water.
It may have started / run (sounded OK) for a few seconds, then die. Same symptoms as in back yard.
Again, this was with NEW, brand name gas & Startron (mixed well). Spark plug is & looked new, correct gap - checked it for good spark.

The Honda manual mentions storing it w/ a FULL gas tank, as "air in the tank can cause fuel degradation." (I don't think that's an issue if use stabilizer - never for me).
It does NOT say anything about gas in partially filled tank absorbing so much moisture, that it won't even start.

? Are these Honda engines more touchy about fuel, that they won't even start on given fuel that other engines start & RUN fine on?

Last week, for the front yard, finally prayed small amt of starter fluid. It started on 1st (weak) pull & ran PERFECTLY till finished (maybe 30 min.). That was about a week ago.
Starter fluid may help START it, but wouldn't keep it running if water in gas was the issue.

Today, wife mowed again. Before starting, had to add some of the new gas, mixed w/ Startron.
She said it started on 1st pull. Mowed all of one yard. Stopped the engine - moved from front to back.
Mowed most of the back, then it died with only couple strips left. Would only pop once on a pull - never like it might start. (it's not out of gas).
I haven't checked anything out - yet, TODAY, so can't swear it's water issues.

The ONLY other time I had issue w/ water in gas was with a brand new Troy Bilt (about 17 yrs ago). I'm an experienced mechanic, but couldn't figure that one. I drained gas tank & carb bowl - no visible H2O in either.
The authorized repair shop said only thing wrong was WATER in the gas. (Really, where was it?). Used same type gas & stabilizer & same procedures in the Troy Bilt, for NEXT 17 yrs w/o a hiccup.
Every one says, "It's the ethanol messing things up. It'll ruin any rubber in small engine carbs, etc."
Maybe so, but I've used this same type gas w/ max 10% ethanol (always name brand) in chainsaws, trimmers, 4 cycle mowers that never needed any carb repairs.

I'd appreciate any info - this isn't something I've seen in the past.

 

[bertsmobile1]

First of all leave the stabilizer for winter storage
It does nothing but cause problems if you are using it right away
Next fuel itself can be bad right out the pump and no goop added to bad fuel will make it good fuel
If you are some where that uses substantially different brews summer to winter then this tends to be a problem at the season change over .
Water could be in your fuel can or fuel tank
Remember "fuel" is not petrol and has not been petrol for decades.
It is a horrid mix of volatile organic solvents & light oil with some aromatics thrown in so cold engines can start.
It is specifically blended for computer controlled fuel injected engines , not air cooled carburettored engines.
In some areas it is worse than others which is why most mower companies now sell sealed cans of fuel
Sort of gone full circle since the 1800's .

Add to that new engines are forced to run way too lean so the tiniest obstruction in the fuel system will cause a no start - bad running situation
Then there are the auto chokes, a stupid idea on air cooled engines from day one .

Ethanol is generally not a problem provided the fuel is fresh and that includes before it gets to the pump

 

[sgkent]

The 3 basics. Spark, air/fuel, compression. Figure which is missing. I will be candid. Really good with engines - spent about 5 years racing in my late 20's and worked for a machine shop that built all sorts of engines - even for Indy, NASCAR, and the Baja races. But like you sometimes my mower gave me fits. I found eventually if I pull the rope handle slowly until I feel strong resistance, and then pull hard the mower starts first pull each time. No idea but it works for me. Use the technique on all my small engines now. Ethanol messes some carbs up and not others. Air filters get dirty faster than one imagines and that can cause all sorts of issues getting a small engine going. Mice like to build nests in things over winter that cause abnormal cooling. Like Bert suggested, I use only the canned fuel now too. Engine runs better on it, smoother and cleaner.

 

[GrowinWeeds]

Thanks for replies. Not sure they solve my specific issue(s)?, but have to start somewhere.

First of all leave the stabilizer for winter storage

I don't agree - totally. Depends on few things, like does the gas (from the station) already have small amount of water? Also, exactly how long before using the new gas.
There's no "water" in an empty, clean gasoline storage / pouring can. It can only come from the sellers' underground tanks, or gas in the mower's sealed tank "sucks" an amazing amt of water out of a minuscule amt of air. That has NEVER been a problem for me. But maybe things have changed.

It is specifically blended for computer controlled fuel injected engines , not air cooled carburettored engines.

Maybe, but I don't totally agree. I've driven an old, carburetor engine truck for decades after all new cars were fuel injected, computer controlled. It still started instantly & ran fine. When it was built, computers didn't exist. I haven't rebuilt the carb in so long, can't remember. Clearly, ethanol or additives don't bother that carb.

Add to that new engines are forced to run way too lean

That's true. I've had to get the seller / authorized repair shop "adjust" the almost non-adjustable air / gas mixture on brand new (expensive) 2 cycle machines, before they'd start quickly, idle smoothly & restart easily after stopped a few minutes.
But that DOESN'T seem to be the problem here. When it starts, it runs fine - usually until finish the front or back yd. But not *always* - and that's a big issue. Unless a big gulp of water is suddenly drawn into the carb & cylinder, there's no reason for a smooth running engine to just die. No hills, slopes, no tipping front of mower way up - no nothing to kill it. Unless more water is in the new, fresh gas.

I did the same exact things I'm doing now, for 17 yrs w/ the Troy Bilt, and for about 18 yrs with another mower before that.
The ONLY issue was the one time, a repair tech said water was in the gas. Then it never happened with that mower again in 17 yrs??? Doesn't sound logical.

When I found water in the carb bowl, where'd it come from? Not from completely sealed gas can(s) I've used a long time w/o issue.
Maybe came from gas stations' storage tanks? Not sure.

if I pull the rope handle slowly until I feel strong resistance

Yep, tried that. If there's no "problem" at a given time, this mower starts with incredibly slow, easy pull on starter rope. Not even pulling it out a "normal" length.
But when something goes wrong it acts exactly as it did when I found water in fuel system.

I'll have to (again) siphon / pour gas from the tank & carb bowl. If don't find visible / measurable water, I'll have to try something else before I waste $ for a technician to say, "couldn't find anything wrong."

A friend said a few yrs ago that he & several people he knew were having problems w/ water in gas. Presumably from the stations. Either way, he bought one of the funnels that claims "to remove any water from the fuel, before it goes into a tank. He said it worked, but I don't know. Even forgotten the (claimed) principle how it works.
Certainly, water molecules are larger than any combustible gasoline molecules. There may also be some molecular attraction between water & what ever the funnel's fine screen is made of.

 

[sgkent]

I have only had water in the fuel a couple times in my life. Do what you think best. Ethanol absorbs water, the water only comes out of suspension when saturated.

 

[bertsmobile1]

Fuel does not SUCK anything from the air
What your get is basically dew forming inside the float bowl & fuel tank
Just th same as it forms on the grass outside.
As temperature lowers the moisture in the air condenses on cold surfaces, like the carb body
Repeat the process a few times and you get a teaspoon of water in the bottom of the carb.

You can disagree as much as you like & quote an many anecdotes as you like but that does not change the fact that modern fuel is designed for injection & pressure atomization.
As such it is based on a light fuel oil base
Tip some in a bowl and leave it in the sunlight
You will see it no longer completely evaporates like it used to years ago when carburettors were the norm .
As for you problem apart from bad fuel then a failing auto choke is most likely suspect
This was mentioned in the post .

 

[Pauljp]

I looked at carb butterfly - it was closed (there's a stop, always leaves a small gap, even if choke's closed). Would only fire once (if that), wouldn't start.

Are you sure there is supposed to be a small gap on a closed butterfly valve?
Here is someone else's picture of the carburetor that he posted of his Honda HRN216 lawnmower with a GCV170 motor. The valve does look completely closed. Perhaps it is a different style one than on yours.
I have a Ryobi generator that would never start when cold and I noticed the butterfly valve was ever so slightly opened. When I held it completely closed it would start on the first try. I have since adjusted it so it would be completely closed when the choke is on and now it starts all the time.
I'm just spit balling here but see if you can close the choke all the way and see what happens.
.

 

[DaveTN]

Hi. From what I've read and from my experience it sounds like a
"Fuel Starvation" problem. Wouldn't hurt to boil out the carb and
make sure the venturi fuel supply holes are cleaned out. I've used
twist ties from bread bags and bend a small 90 degree in it and seems
to have worked for decades for me. Good Luck.