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Recently repowered Gravely ZT2044 with Kohler disCourage SV 710 engine and have run it two times for a total of 3hrs. It has been parked up for a week and would not start today. Checked for fuel, found fuel present. Checked for spark, had spark. Checked compression and found approx. 30 psi. The previous engine suddenly developed no compression on one cylinder. I believe this engine has a compression release that may be the cause of this sudden loss of compression. Is this a known problem? Anyone have information or suggestions?

Was engine brand new ? If so take to Kohler shop for repair (don't do anything yourself as it might void warranty)
If not new engine let us know and we will go from there.

It is a new engine Mike, and clearly warrantee work. Being a long time motor head my curiosity causes me to think what might be the cause. Will be taking it to Kohler service shop for work, hoping for at lest a 6 hr. run the next time.

Mechanic Mark,
Thank you very much for the Kohler Shop Manual.

If you would after you find out what went wrong post it here, I'm courious I have a courage 23 hp v-twin.

You have only 30 lbs on both 1 & 2 cyl, or only 1 cyl? If one cyl, it's more like a valve issue. I would take a peek in the rocker cover!

I just thought of something, when you get it back keep close eye on air filter, it's a very small filter on Courage v-twins.
A lot of new engines don't have foam pre cleaner, if yours doesn't you should get one, here in Oklahoma it tends to get very dusty and I wash pre cleaner after every mow. Let it dry and oil with any cheap motor oil, that will help keep engine cleaner.
By washing mine every time the main filter looks as good as when I put it in at first of mowing season.

I just thought of something, when you get it back keep close eye on air filter, it's a very small filter on Courage v-twins.
A lot of new engines don't have foam pre cleaner, if yours doesn't you should get one, here in Oklahoma it tends to get very dusty and I wash pre cleaner after every mow. Let it dry and oil with any cheap motor oil, that will help keep engine cleaner.
By washing mine every time the main filter looks as good as when I put it in at first of mowing season.

My recollection is that the compression showed 30 psi on one cylinder and 00 psi on the other, and that I could not achieve those results consistently. It took repeated crankings to see the 30 psi on that cylinder as mostly the results were 0 psi on both. The 30 psi reading was seemingly a random occurrence. Could not establish a pattern.
I have always run these engines with pre filter sleeve, and note that this new one had no pre filter fitted.

I would remove rocker covers and plugs. Roll engine over by hand. Look at the valves work and the timing of the roll over point at top dead center. From intake to exh valve and piston timing. This will tell you if can timing has changed and if valves are working proper.

I wouldn't touch that engine with a wrench no matter how bad I wanted to investigate the cause. The people that sell them are looking for any nit picking thing they can find not to make good on the warranty. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't attempt to blame E-10 gas.

Double ditto.

Take it back.
Low compression on both cylinders is not going to anything simple or cheap.
Only time I have come across this on a new engine was a run with no oil, cost the owner another new engine.
On older engines have seen cam drive pack it in .

The mower is at the preferred Kohler service station. The drill is a s follows:service people have to make appointment with Kohler rep who will come to service station and observe the engine teardown and decision will ultimately come from Kohler rep not the service people. Service station lead mechanic says that Kohler not too hard to work with. Mostly not trusting service personnel to make decisions. He allows that Kohler much easier to work with than Kawasaki. Meanwhile I am having difficult time sleeping as the grass is growing so fast that I can hear it in the quiet nights here in the country where i live and the constant sound of the grass growing is disturbing my sleep.

TR5T said:

[...]He allows that Kohler much easier to work with than Kawasaki.

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Interesting.

/subbed

IMO everyone should be careful telling an owner to do anything to an engine that's under warranty, I know I would feel awfull if I said to work on an engine (or mower) and then the manufacturer would not honor warranty because of that.

gainestruk said:

IMO everyone should be careful telling an owner to do anything to an engine that's under warranty, I know I would feel awfull if I said to work on an engine (or mower) and then the manufacturer would not honor warranty because of that.

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Ditto... tis dangerous advice.

Then again, folks as myself have no need for or value warranty.
I cannot know the leagalese in your location but in Aust. there
are consumer laws for "fit for purpose" and extensions of
same in "promise of contract".
Both of those are more than enough in the price-point
lawn tools meet.

My cousin bought a new riding mower from Lowe's and used it once or twice on her lawn and
it suddenly started making an awful clanking and clanging sound like a mule kicking in a tin
stall. Yet it ran I was told. I went over to try and find out what was wrong with it. The instant
I fired it up I killed it. I knew something "internal" had given it up and told her to load it and
not start it up period and haul it to the dealer-authorized service center. Not the closest shop
mind you, but 14 miles away across town. What happened was a broken camshaft! Broken in
two pieces, yet enough of the rough edges and the angle on which is broke kept it together with
the pressure from the block and the plate that held the camshaft! A new cam and valve adjustment
and it's running fine today. So beware of doing even minor work on a "warranty" unit. As far as
your motor having low to no compression it could be valves out of adjustment, or the rocker arm off
its pivot, a bad cam, or bent pushrod. Let us know what the Kohler Doctors find out on your
patient. :thumbsup:

(No)Progress report:
Kohler authorized service station has confirmed no compression on either cylinder and called Kohler rep 4 times with no response from Kohler. I am now checking the Farm Bulletin for some goats to purchase or perhaps a hay baler.

The authorized service center may have to get a chineeeeese translator so the koholer rep can understand the problem.:laughing:

TR5 Sorry to hear of your delays and lack of service with the Kohler
Chinese delegation. At one time I was an "authorized service mechanic"
for Sears small engines, but that was a long time ago. Good Luck with
getting authorized service soon. :thumbsup:

Just returned from Kohler authorized service station and the damage is fuel related which I am informed is not covered under warantee. Both intake valves stuck in guides and not on seats therefore no compression, also both pushrods bent like pretzels.There issn obvious build up of brownish substance on valve stems and the valves are unable to be pushed by hand thru guides. The Kohler rep knew what was the trouble before we opened the valve covers and intake manifold. I do a lot of engine work on motorcycles both air and liquid cooled and have never seen this problem. Presently I am performing work n 2 Triumphs, 1 Ducati, & a BMW I am also building engines for a triumph & a Norton so I can say with confidence that I am experienced beyond the amateur level. The only other time I have seen this was on an Oliver Super 55 tractor that had 2 bent pushrods on intakes and the deposits on the valve stems would not allow me to push the valves back thru the guides until I heated the with a touch which softened the gunk od varnish as Kohler rep calls it. I agree that it is fuel related and that the fuel in this case was not fresh as it was a mixture of fresh and the remains from last season. I cannot be very accurate in describing the fuel as there are 2 5 gal. saddle tanks and I did not pay attention to which was being used. I can say that I believe the deposits on the intakes are a result of ethanol and had I filled the tanks with 100% gasoline I would not have experienced this costly event.
Bottom line: the complaints about damage from ethanol blended with gasoline are not exaggerated and are a needless expense to the owners of internal combustion engines which serves no purpose other to enrich growers of corn and fill the war chests of professional politicians, oh and we also get less mileage and less power from this bastardized fuel. Use Ethanol at your own risk!!!

TR5T said:

Just returned from Kohler authorized service station and the damage is fuel related which I am informed is not covered under warantee. Both intake valves stuck in guides and not on seats therefore no compression, also both pushrods bent like pretzels.There issn obvious build up of brownish substance on valve stems and the valves are unable to be pushed by hand thru guides. The Kohler rep knew what was the trouble before we opened the valve covers and intake manifold. I do a lot of engine work on motorcycles both air and liquid cooled and have never seen this problem. Presently I am performing work n 2 Triumphs, 1 Ducati, & a BMW I am also building engines for a triumph & a Norton so I can say with confidence that I am experienced beyond the amateur level. The only other time I have seen this was on an Oliver Super 55 tractor that had 2 bent pushrods on intakes and the deposits on the valve stems would not allow me to push the valves back thru the guides until I heated the with a touch which softened the gunk od varnish as Kohler rep calls it. I agree that it is fuel related and that the fuel in this case was not fresh as it was a mixture of fresh and the remains from last season. I cannot be very accurate in describing the fuel as there are 2 5 gal. saddle tanks and I did not pay attention to which was being used. I can say that I believe the deposits on the intakes are a result of ethanol and had I filled the tanks with 100% gasoline I would not have experienced this costly event.
Bottom line: the complaints about damage from ethanol blended with gasoline are not exaggerated and are a needless expense to the owners of internal combustion engines which serves no purpose other to enrich growers of corn and fill the war chests of professional politicians, oh and we also get less mileage and less power from this bastardized fuel. Use Ethanol at your own risk!!!

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Wow I don't know what to say, didn't you say only 6 hrs on it ?
I run e10 every now and then, but it's always fresh, most times its 100 percent gas.

With that low of hours he wouldn't help you with anything on repair ?
It's hard for me to believe that with as low hrs as it is it would gum up that fast.

Sorry to hear about your problems with it, my 23 hp courage twin has 95.6 hours with no problems, guess I'll go to only 100 % gas from now on.
Are you fixing it or shop doing it ?

I've seen valves gummed up and varnished up and stuck open or closed on
account of carbon and carbon-oil deposits preventing them from working.
I usually just clean the valves or remove them and use a wire brush manually
or on the electric grinding wheel with a wire brush to clean them up. Clean
out the bores and put them back after cleaning and gaping properly. I've
never heard of ethanol doing such a horrific job of gumming up like this one!
Wow..what a story. I've never had anything this bad before with ethanol but
will definitely remember this one! :confused2: Thanks for sharing this story.
Still all in all Kohler should make it right as ""gainestruk" said earlier. This will
definitely hurt Kohler's image and reputation. Even if I sold you your mower
I would stand behind it and make it right just to keep you and other potential
customers happy. Small price to pay really even if wasn't my fault.

I saw it and I am correct on the running time. The deposits were there and could both be seen and felt. Aparently the clearances on new engine at valve stem to guides are so close that that short a run time could build enough to cause the valve to seize in its guide. On the Oliver tractor engine (mentioned in previous post) that I repaired I recollect that the deposits were both thicker build up and a darker color than what I observed today. I did not tear down the previous Kohler which suddenly lost compression on one cylinder (also due to valves) on the same tank of fuel!!! I would hazard a guess that a teardown of that engine would reveal the same problem as this one. Hard to believe that this crap fuel could do so much damage in so short a time. If you look hard enough you can always find a plus ........ i"m looking.........Oh, great I see it now , I am saving the planet. You may now thank me for doing my part.

I am not going to make the engine repair myself, I am 77 yrs. and have not enough time as it is don't need another project, have plenty on my plate. I can use my time more profitably working on the stuff I love to work on. Let the shop do it and call me when it is ready.

Mike, thanks for the sympathy and the interest. Beware the Ethanol!!!

Dave,
Thanks for your insight and knowledge. Really appreciated and your attitude. Kohler claims no liability/responsibility in the fuel you choose. I feel that Kohler would be wise to attach a label to their engines warning of this critical fuel use and that they will not reimburse damage as a result of fuel related issues. You might even say they are negligent. Kohler clearly states in the Owners Manual that the use of 10% ethanol is approved. They also caution that fuel left over from previous usage is not to be used and recommend buying fuel in small quantities (2 gal.); nowhere that I find do Kohler describe any catastrophic event as the result of not following their fuel recommendations, only that deposits may result in the system.
This Gravely has 2 saddle tanks at 5 gal. per ea. which complicates Kohler's recommendations. Therefore a clear statement attached permanently to the engine itself would be a better method of conveying this critical information.

TR5T said:

Just returned from Kohler authorized service station and the damage is fuel related which I am informed is not covered under warantee. Both intake valves stuck in guides and not on seats therefore no compression, also both pushrods bent like pretzels.There issn obvious build up of brownish substance on valve stems and the valves are unable to be pushed by hand thru guides. The Kohler rep knew what was the trouble before we opened the valve covers and intake manifold. I do a lot of engine work on motorcycles both air and liquid cooled and have never seen this problem. Presently I am performing work n 2 Triumphs, 1 Ducati, & a BMW I am also building engines for a triumph & a Norton so I can say with confidence that I am experienced beyond the amateur level. The only other time I have seen this was on an Oliver Super 55 tractor that had 2 bent pushrods on intakes and the deposits on the valve stems would not allow me to push the valves back thru the guides until I heated the with a touch which softened the gunk od varnish as Kohler rep calls it. I agree that it is fuel related and that the fuel in this case was not fresh as it was a mixture of fresh and the remains from last season. I cannot be very accurate in describing the fuel as there are 2 5 gal. saddle tanks and I did not pay attention to which was being used. I can say that I believe the deposits on the intakes are a result of ethanol and had I filled the tanks with 100% gasoline I would not have experienced this costly event.
Bottom line: the complaints about damage from ethanol blended with gasoline are not exaggerated and are a needless expense to the owners of internal combustion engines which serves no purpose other to enrich growers of corn and fill the war chests of professional politicians, oh and we also get less mileage and less power from this bastardized fuel. Use Ethanol at your own risk!!!

Click to expand...

And I am professional small engine repairer plus a motorcycle enthusiasts and had been the main contact point for the state BSA club for over 25 years.
Having never stopped restoring & riding air cooled carburettorerd engine for all this time ( 45 years) I can assure you that this is not uncommon.
The difference between your motorcycle engines & your mower engines is the former are built to a substantially more robust level than the mower engine.
Motorcycles are designed for 1000+ hours a year.
Mower engines are designed for a service life of 1000 hours period.

Next, petrol is a mythical liquid no longer made and has been that way and getting worse since the introduction of unleaded which had absolutely nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with the profitability of fuel companies.
Those of you over 40 will remember the old days when we used gas to degrease and you will remember leaving a bowl of gas by the side of your car when doing the wheel bearings.
By the time you finished refitting the bearings on one side, all of the gas in your degreasing bowl had evaporated.
Put a bowl of gas out in the sun now days ( jailable offence in some States ) and it does not evaporate leaving the bowl clean & dry.
It reduces to about 1/3 it's volume and becomes a sticky dark brown foul smelling sludge.
Fuel, which is not petrol, is a mixture of all the organic partially volatile solvents left over from the manufacture of plastics & fertilizers from crude oil, plus some fluids deemed to dangerous for general use ( solvent benzene for example ) .
They toss in some stabilisers and a few aromatic rings ( so it can start ) and then flog it off to you.
They can do this because all cars since the 90's are fuel injected and since the 2000's are computer controlled fuel injected so can partilly burn almost any fluid from light fuel oil through to strait ethanol.
I said "partially burn" because even the computer can not keep the air fuel ratio at a combustable level and we are required to fit AFTER BURNERS to all our vehicles cunningly called catalytic converters to disguise the fact that a lot of what you pay good money to put in your tank goes strait out the exhaust unburned.

Even worse there is no rhyme or reason to the way "fuel" will degrade with time.
I have started and run my A65 with 6 month old gas in it no troubles then week latter it just fouls plugs on a tank full of fresh fuel I left in from the previous weekends refill.

About 15% of my work is soaking carbs in cleaning solutions, dropping the carb in the ultrasound then refitting to the engine

TR5T said:

Dave,
Thanks for your insight and knowledge. Really appreciated and your attitude. Kohler claims no liability/responsibility in the fuel you choose. I feel that Kohler would be wise to attach a label to their engines warning of this critical fuel use and that they will not reimburse damage as a result of fuel related issues. You might even say they are negligent. Kohler clearly states in the Owners Manual that the use of 10% ethanol is approved. They also caution that fuel left over from previous usage is not to be used and recommend buying fuel in small quantities (2 gal.); nowhere that I find do Kohler describe any catastrophic event as the result of not following their fuel recommendations, only that deposits may result in the system.
This Gravely has 2 saddle tanks at 5 gal. per ea. which complicates Kohler's recommendations. Therefore a clear statement attached permanently to the engine itself would be a better method of conveying this critical information.

Click to expand...

Ethanol blends are not causing this problem.
Stale fuel is the problem.
Fuel is a metastable product .
Over time the light highly volatile parts will evaporate off and this can be from 5 % to 25 % of the volume.
At the same time the heavier ( thicker less volatile ) parts start to react with each other, slowly turning back into the tar oil from which was formed, just the same as steel rusts and goes back to the iron oxide from whence it came which is chemically stable.
So fresh E 10 is fine, provided you use it quickly as all of the synthetic rubbers it dissolves have now been replaced by ethanol resistant products.
Old e anything is not. in fact any old fuel is bad.
How old is too old ?
Down here BP guarantee their "fuel" for 90 days from manufacture, provided it was purchased in a sealed container ( not at the pump ) and kept in a sea;ed container for the whole 90 days, out of direct sunlight in a cool place
Shell have almost the same warrantee.
Diesel is only good for 30 days with the same proviso and avgas is 120 days, same conditions.

Ethanol is a problem when left sitting in you carburettor where it can separate , adsorb water and grow bacteria ( same as the old diesel used to ) .
This fills your float bowl with that white jelly like goo that blocks up every thing.
To make matter worse, both it and the remainding fuel is electrically conductive so you get several galvanic cells happening in yout float bowl further blocking up passageways and removing metal from the carburettor till the center is so thin it breaks off when you tighten the bowl nut. Added to that the aromatics evaporate and the remaining fuel becomes that heavy dark brown sludge, which is the same as the case of stale fuel.

The solution is to fit a tap to your fuel line and run your carburettor dry rather than allowing the shut off solenoid to trap a full bowl of fuel in your carburettor this will also cause a few seconds of very lean burn just before your engine starves and the lean burn is a lot hotter than a balanced burn which can go a long way to burning off deposits from your plugs and valves although it would apply more to the exhaust than the inlet.
This is SOP down here in the Vintage/ classic motorcycle movements to starve the engine off if it is going to be sitting long enough to cool down.