Export thread

Need expertise!

#1

W

Wyokid

I need some help. I have a Kohler 24hp 7000 series on a Craftsman zero turn. This spring I took it for the maiden voyage mowing and ran it out of gas. I refueled it and it was missing on one cylinder. After some research I did a coil upgrade that didn't help. I took it to the local small engine repair shop where it has been for 3 MONTHS. They called to report that they changed the carb and the muffler and it is still missing and running hot. They recommended a new motor for $1,800. It has 70 hours and has been flawless and gently used. What are they missing?


#2

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Find a new shop


#3

I

ILENGINE

Explain a little more about this coil upgrade. What exactly did you do and what where the parts numbers involved as well as the actual model and spec of the engine for further reference.


#4

Mower King

Mower King

Wyokid said:
I need some help. I have a Kohler 24hp 7000 series on a Craftsman zero turn. This spring I took it for the maiden voyage mowing and ran it out of gas. I refueled it and it was missing on one cylinder. After some research I did a coil upgrade that didn't help. I took it to the local small engine repair shop where it has been for 3 MONTHS. They called to report that they changed the carb and the muffler and it is still missing and running hot. They recommended a new motor for $1,800. It has 70 hours and has been flawless and gently used. What are they missing?
Click to expand...
They have missed something! They took a heck of a swing to get nowhere....that's crazy! I agree, find another shop!


#5

W

Wyokid

ILENGINE said:
Explain a little more about this coil upgrade. What exactly did you do and what where the parts numbers involved as well as the actual model and spec of the engine for further reference.
Click to expand...

Attachments





#6

W

Wyokid

Here is the coil. The shop did a spark test which showed the coils were good


#7

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech


Am I missing something? How does these coils constitute an "upgrade." And why would you replace the coils if both were firing?

Flywheel key may be cracked.


#8

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

PTmowerMech said:
Am I missing something? How does these coils constitute an "upgrade." And why would you replace the coils if both were firing?

Flywheel key may be cracked.
Click to expand...
Many kohler engines came with ASAM or DSAM type DASI ignition systems that failed all the time. The upgrade is to install MDI coils which are just plain old electronic coils.


#9

S

slomo

Wow what an upgrade. Removing new junk and replacing with old school tried and true parts. Doesn't sound like they have proper engineers over at Kroller.

slomo


#10

S

slomo

Wyokid said:
I need some help. I have a Kohler 24hp 7000 series on a Craftsman zero turn. This spring I took it for the maiden voyage mowing and ran it out of gas. I refueled it and it was missing on one cylinder. After some research I did a coil upgrade that didn't help. I took it to the local small engine repair shop where it has been for 3 MONTHS. They called to report that they changed the carb and the muffler and it is still missing and running hot. They recommended a new motor for $1,800. It has 70 hours and has been flawless and gently used. What are they missing?
Click to expand...
Is the muffler running hot or the engine? How did they tell the engine was hot? Does it have a temp gauge?

slomo


#11

B

bertsmobile1

Wyokid said:
I need some help. I have a Kohler 24hp 7000 series on a Craftsman zero turn. This spring I took it for the maiden voyage mowing and ran it out of gas. I refueled it and it was missing on one cylinder. After some research I did a coil upgrade that didn't help. I took it to the local small engine repair shop where it has been for 3 MONTHS. They called to report that they changed the carb and the muffler and it is still missing and running hot. They recommended a new motor for $1,800. It has 70 hours and has been flawless and gently used. What are they missing?
Click to expand...
Any sort of diagnostic ability
Go to another shop or take it home & allow the tech here to walk you through proper diagnostics & repair.


#12

W

Wyokid

PTmowerMech said:
Am I missing something? How does these coils constitute an "upgrade." And why would you replace the coils if both were firing?

Flywheel key may be cracked.
Click to expand...
I only have basic mechanic skills. When it started having issues, it seemed like it was missing. The coils that came originally are no longer available and Kohler went back to the version I bought. There was several youtube videos addressing what I thought was the issue. There was no change in performance


#13

W

Wyokid

slomo said:
Is the muffler running hot or the engine? How did they tell the engine was hot? Does it have a temp gauge?

slomo
Click to expand...
The shop had all the heat shields off and said the muffler would glow red after about 10 minutes. No temp gauge on the machine. I haven't picked up the machine yet as I was hoping to gain some knowledge here before refusing to pay the bill.


#14

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Muffler glowing red. That can be afterburning where raw fuel is burning in the muffler. Carb or dead cylinder pumping raw fuel into the exhaust. Or super lean which raises the exhaust gas temp. Kills engines too. New muffler won't fix that. A trained tech should be able to look at the spark plugs and get a feel for what is wrong.


#15

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

I'd have a long talk with the shops boss about paying for their guess work. Sounds like they were just throwing parts at it.


#16

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

I try not to second guess or bad mouth another's work but a shop should be able to diagnose the problem.
Check valve lash and observe lift then do a leakdownd test. If all that is good compression is eliminated. Check flywheel key. Check spark on both cylinders with a gap tester. If good install NEW plugs and use an inline neon tester on each plug to monitor spark while running. If that is good it just leaves air fuel mixture delivery. It's not the space shuttle. It's not that complicated. If you don't know what is wrong eliminate what you know is right till you find the problem. A place you are paying should have the basic tools and skills to troubleshoot the problem without guessing or throwing parts at it. The average Joe may not have the tools or skills or tools but a shop should.


#17

I

ILENGINE

Something else to keep in mind is with today's leaner running engines it is not unusual for the exhaust to get a dull red, Most likely not noticeable in daylight but can be seen in the dark or dim lit areas.


#18

PTmowerMech

PTmowerMech

I think it's valid to replace a part that can't be checked before it's replaced. Providing that it has something to do with the actual problem. But when the new part doesn't fix the problem, the original part should be re installed.

Don't fix it if it ain't broke, sort of thing.


#19

W

Wyokid

Hammermechanicman said:
I try not to second guess or bad mouth another's work but a shop should be able to diagnose the problem.
Check valve lash and observe lift then do a leakdownd test. If all that is good compression is eliminated. Check flywheel key. Check spark on both cylinders with a gap tester. If good install NEW plugs and use an inline neon tester on each plug to monitor spark while running. If that is good it just leaves air fuel mixture delivery. It's not the space shuttle. It's not that complicated. If you don't know what is wrong eliminate what you know is right till you find the problem. A place you are paying should have the basic tools and skills to troubleshoot the problem without guessing or throwing parts at it. The average Joe may not have the tools or skills or tools but a shop should.

What does a bad flywheel key cause?
Click to expand...


#20

W

Wyokid

Here's an update of what was done.
Checked stator
Checked load to drive pumps
Removed both cylinder heads and replaced gaskets
Replaced intake gaskets
Checked timing key
Replaced muffler
Checked engine spark
Checked fuel pump
Checked fuel intake
Checked compression
Checked cylinder Temps

It runs identical as it did when I dropped it off 3 months ago. The only difference is I'm $260 poorer and my yard looks like an abandoned lot.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

BTW, the shop is Sturgis ATV and small engine repair in Sturgis, SD. I do not recommend.


#21

I

ILENGINE

Can somebody confirm the model and spec of this engine. the 7000 series is a KT engine which would of been a MDI system from the factory. The SV courage twin would of been the engine with the SAM that required the MDI conversion kit. I am wondering if the wrong kit has been installed and the timing if off causing run issues.


#22

W

Wyokid

ILENGINE said:
Can somebody confirm the model and spec of this engine. the 7000 series is a KT engine which would of been a MDI system from the factory. The SV courage twin would of been the engine with the SAM that required the MDI conversion kit. I am wondering if the wrong kit has been installed and the timing if off causing run issues.
Click to expand...


#23

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

Assuming nothing.
Start engine and run at idle then advance to wide open throttle. How does engine run?
Stop engine and disconnect one spark plug wire. Start engine and run at idle then advance to wide open throttle. Does engine run the same or different?
Repeat test with other cylinder. How does engine run? Is there a difference between the cylinders?
When the coils were replaced was there a black module that went with the old coils? There are 2 different flywheels used with the DASI ignition systems. One works with MDI coils one doesn't.


#24

W

Wyokid

View attachment 53810


#25

W

Wyokid

20200821_182613.jpgKT735


#26

I

ILENGINE

OK the model number is KT735 now what is the specification number from the tag on the side of the blower housing.

It appears that you have installed a MDI spark advance timing on an engine designed for the CDI fixed timing type ignition system. The problems that everybody is fighting is because the timing of the spark is wrong.


#27

Fish

Fish

On the upgrade, was there a new flywheel? Sounds like a timing issue a bit.

What are the engine's spec numbers?
Any details on the upgrade?


#28

W

Wyokid

Here's the info

Attachments





#29

W

Wyokid

I can confirm that ILENGINE has cracked the mystery and is a genius. Thanks! And thanks to all those who contributed.


#30

Fish

Fish

Wyokid said:
I can confirm that ILENGINE has cracked the mystery and is a genius. Thanks! And thanks to all those who contributed.
Click to expand...
????


#31

I

ILENGINE

Fish said:
????
Click to expand...
Fish I think he is referring to the fact that I determined that he had installed the MDI ignition system which is an electronic spark advance module system that was originally fitted with the CDI fixed timing ignition system, and the two systems are directly not compatible. So by changing the ignition system he created the misfire issue that the dealer overlooked.


#32

Mower King

Mower King

ILENGINE said:
Fish I think he is referring to the fact that I determined that he had installed the MDI ignition system which is an electronic spark advance module system that was originally fitted with the CDI fixed timing ignition system, and the two systems are directly not compatible. So by changing the ignition system he created the misfire issue that the dealer overlooked.
Click to expand...
I tried this a few months ago just for s**ts & grins and yes, the engine did start up ok but, definitely did not run right.


#33

Fish

Fish

ILENGINE said:
Fish I think he is referring to the fact that I determined that he had installed the MDI ignition system which is an electronic spark advance module system that was originally fitted with the CDI fixed timing ignition system, and the two systems are directly not compatible. So by changing the ignition system he created the misfire issue that the dealer overlooked.
Click to expand...

Just wondering, how it was determined with scant info. You didn't respond after he finally put up the spec. number, and he offered no info on what was done prior. And how did he know what the answer was, and also know that you were correct?
Are we missing something here?

Just curious.


#34

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

ILENGINE said:
Fish I think he is referring to the fact that I determined that he had installed the MDI ignition system which is an electronic spark advance module system that was originally fitted with the CDI fixed timing ignition system, and the two systems are directly not compatible. So by changing the ignition system he created the misfire issue that the dealer overlooked.
Click to expand...
I have changed a few kohlers from DASI to MDI coils after the module or coil(s) failed. A couple were direct replacement and one needed the kit with the flywheel since it was not compatible with MDI coils. As far as i can tell the MDI coils are just dumb coils like most other ignition coils. I am wondering. Did he install MDI coils on and engine that had the incompatible DASI/ASAMflywheel? The regular kohler ignition coils have a different bolt spacing from the MDI and DASI/ASAM coils. They are not interchangeable. If the engine came stock with CDI coils then MDI coils will not fit. I wonder what ignition coils he replaced since his link was to an MDI coil kit? Acording to something i read from Kohler the MDI coil conversion does not have variable timing.


#35

Fish

Fish

Yeah, It would be more helpful to everyone if some of the details are put into this.
I have been out of the biz for several years, so I am not up to date on the more recent problems that Kohler has introduced to the world.
Which is why I always ask for model/spec numbers.


#36

I

ILENGINE

Hammermechanicman said:
I have changed a few kohlers from DASI to MDI coils after the module or coil(s) failed. A couple were direct replacement and one needed the kit with the flywheel since it was not compatible with MDI coils. As far as i can tell the MDI coils are just dumb coils like most other ignition coils. I am wondering. Did he install MDI coils on and engine that had the incompatible DASI/ASAMflywheel? The regular kohler ignition coils have a different bolt spacing from the MDI and DASI/ASAM coils. They are not interchangeable. If the engine came stock with CDI coils then MDI coils will not fit. I wonder what ignition coils he replaced since his link was to an MDI coil kit? Acording to something i read from Kohler the MDI coil conversion does not have variable timing.
Click to expand...
Kohler refers to the MDI as adjustable timing in the service manual. He installed the MDI adjustable timing modules on an engine that had the CDI fixed timing modules originally. I am not sure about the bolt spacing but years ago Kohler had an 18-20-22 engine range that all used the same block. The difference between the 20 and the 22 was the use of smart spark. That system would now be replaced with an MDI system. whereas the 18-20 hp of that same block used CDI modules. So I am sure there are MDI modules that will bolt up in place of the CDI modules.

The new 7000 series is the replacement for the Courage twin and would have the CDI modules and doesn't appear to use the MDI on any of the KT engines. The 7000 series engine would of never went through the DSAM/ASAM to DSAI to MDI conversion


#37

I

ILENGINE

Fish said:
Yeah, It would be more helpful to everyone if some of the details are put into this.
I have been out of the biz for several years, so I am not up to date on the more recent problems that Kohler has introduced to the world.
Which is why I always ask for model/spec numbers.
Click to expand...
Fish if you look back I asked for model and spec three times before getting an answer.

From further research the OP replaced the part number 32 584 06-s CDI ignition modules with the 32 707 01-s MDI kit. Which created the hot running misfiring effect because the timing of the spark was incorrect, Then the mower sat at the repair shop for 3 months which they tried to diagnose most likely without the knowledge of the ignition module change.


#38

Fish

Fish

Yes, he finally gave it. Then the very next post he called you an expert.

Hence my "?????".....

What are we missing? Was there discussion in private messages? Did he have any invoice on the work that was done prior? Did he contact the shop and they confirmed it.???

Just curious as to what we are missing.


#39

I

ILENGINE

Fish there was nothing done by private message on my part. I don't know how he confirmed it. Maybe he contacted the shop or when I mentioned about the incorrect modules he had a Ohh moment.


#40

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

ILENGINE said:
Kohler refers to the MDI as adjustable timing in the service manual. He installed the MDI adjustable timing modules on an engine that had the CDI fixed timing modules originally. I am not sure about the bolt spacing but years ago Kohler had an 18-20-22 engine range that all used the same block. The difference between the 20 and the 22 was the use of smart spark. That system would now be replaced with an MDI system. whereas the 18-20 hp of that same block used CDI modules. So I am sure there are MDI modules that will bolt up in place of the CDI modules.

The new 7000 series is the replacement for the Courage twin and would have the CDI modules and doesn't appear to use the MDI on any of the KT engines. The 7000 series engine would of never went through the DSAM/ASAM to DSAI to MDI conversion
Click to expand...
I wonder if the 7000 series uses bolt spacing for the stock CDI coils that is the same as the MDI coils. Keeping up with all the Kohler ignitions is a chore. I have several different kohler coils and looks like not all of them.


#41

I

ILENGINE

Hammer I am thinking that they are using the same or similar block to the SV courage twin which used the MDI conversion, and it looks like the CDI modules that were used on the OP engine only fit the KT and ZT engines So the KT/ZT CDI modules could be the same spacing at the MDI modules used on the Courage twin.


#42

Fish

Fish

ILENGINE said:
Fish there was nothing done by private message on my part. I don't know how he confirmed it. Maybe he contacted the shop or when I mentioned about the incorrect modules he had a Ohh moment.
Click to expand...
Yeah, OK, was just wondering.
Maybe he will give us some details.
Would be interesting to find out how the shop handles it from here.


#43

I

ILENGINE

In post 20 he mentions that it cost him $260 so I am assuming that he picked it up and it still ran bad until it was confirmed that the module replacement that he did doesn't work with that engine.


#44

Hammermechanicman

Hammermechanicman

ILENGINE said:
Hammer I am thinking that they are using the same or similar block to the SV courage twin which used the MDI conversion, and it looks like the CDI modules that were used on the OP engine only fit the KT and ZT engines So the KT/ZT CDI modules could be the same spacing at the MDI modules used on the Courage twin.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Learn things every day??


#45

W

Wyokid

Update. I brought the mower home last week and after the info I got from ILENGINE ordered the correct coils. It arrived today and I installed myself. The mower runs like a champ. Again, thanks for all those who contributed to this thread, especially ILENGINE who identified the problem! Screenshot_20200826-194705_Amazon Shopping.jpg


Footer Links 1

Top